S03.E21: Al Sah-him

[looptab]

I really enjoyed Nyssa and Laurel at first.  The training was fun (though I really thought she was better than that by now) and the fries and milkshakes was fun - though I am not a fan of the combo.   Laurel was open and smiling and I believed it all.  And then she went to talk to Diggle and Felicity and I hated her.  She was smug and myopic and mean and it was how she said her lines. Everything was an accusation.  I don't get it.  Why does she act like this?  And the Canary Cry?  Used once (to break glass and get attention but nothing else.)  Pointless and confusing and it shouldn't have to be. 

 

Same. I liked the diner scene because Nyssa was freaking adorable, and I even liked how Laurel repeated "everything" to tease her. But hell, the scene where Laurel goes to Nyssa's lair was just bad. And every time she grabbed her arms it took me out of it, I could see it was not natural at all but rather "now I'm going to grab her arms to show my concern and worry".

 

TBH I don't think even the best of actors could pull off the ridiculous number of these type of scenes EBR has had to perform this season and make them seem fresh and interesting. I'll never understand who thought it would be a great idea to take an actress who shines best at humor and charm and saddle her with so many breakdown scenes. Not a great plan. A handful is fine. A dozen is overkill.

 

Agreed. If she wasn't crying 95% of her on-screen time, maybe it would make an impact. As it is, I can't totally disagree with people who are fed-up, I'm getting there too, and I love the character.

 

Then Diggle says: "What I think she is saying is that Oliver would never do anything to hurt you, Felicity and the only reason he joined the league is to protect the people he loves." 

 

I listened to this exchange maybe 20 times. Can't figure it out.

 

Like others, I loved the Dinner at the Diggles scene, Felicity+Thea FINALLY! (I could have done without their last scene, though).

 

I have trouble understanding half the words Ra's al Ghul says,

 

Oliver's frowny/pouty face mostly made me laugh.

 

Laurel can't stop a street thug but can hold off two LoA members and end up without a scratch. Coherence, where are you?

 

I know Arrow gets lots of praise for the stunts, but I am finding them rather boring lately. Like, I don't care if you put ten+ people fighting each other, all I see is the coreography behind it. I can almost hear them count "a five, six, seven, eight".

 

Baby Sara is the MVP. While I liked most of the character moments, this episode is fairly forgettable in my opinion. Evil Oliver notwithstanding.

Edited April 30, 2015 by looptab

[SleepDeprived]

Dear Spoiler Thread: Congratulations on predicting everything that happened accurately. Mazel tov! I'm just very sorry that most of you guys' other speculations/theories, even from way back before the season started, were actually more interesting and made more sense than what we've been getting this season.

 

This was a very well-directed episode. I especially liked the transitions to the flashback, which was far less jarring than the past few episodes have been. If only this LoA storyline made sense, though. Lawd. So many convolutions and WTF-ery yet the show still hasn't managed to make this Ra's al Ghul and his Sheeple Assassins any more intriguing or, at least, MAKE THEM MAKE SOME DAMN SENSE. Like, what does the League do actually? What do they want? What do they stand for? Have they, under this current Ra's (who I can't really believe is Nyssa's actual biological father), been just warring and having a pissing contest with Damien Darhk's H.I.V.E. group all this time? Do they just spend their days fighting, training, and killing each other until the current Ra's chooses a new Ra's and they have to brainwash him/destroy everything he loves/raze their entire villages and cities? I really don't get them.

 

I can't even with Ra's forcing Nyssa and "Al Sah-Him" to marry each other. Seriously? DarthOliver looked really hot, though. But not enough for me to want to see the Oliver Queen I've been rooting for, all this time, as blank-faced and cold like this for more than one episode. Please let everything be a ruse/long con.

 

Other than the LoA/Ra's stuff, I really liked everything else. Tatsu and her katana continue to be my flashback OTP (sorry, Maseo). Nyssa and Laurel was a surprisingly good pair. I was thrilled to see all the ladies (Lyla, Thea, Nyssa, Felicity, Laurel) interacting and being amazing badasses in their own way. We got Diggle/Felicity, Diggle/Lyla, Thea/Felicity (Why, show? Why did it take this long for you to show me how awesome these two could be around each other?), Lyla/Diggle/Thea/Felicity/baby Sara... Basically, all the food-related scenes with all the characters were the best and I wouldn't have complained if this entire episode was just everyone hanging out with each other and drinking milkshakes or wine.

 

By the way, how old is Thea? Isn't she still technically not of legal drinking age yet? Did the Diggles and Felicity knowingly provide alcohol to Thea at dinner? Hah.

 

That changing of the whole intro spiel to "My name was Oliver Queen..." in the beginning? Cheeky. But screw that nonsense, tbh.

[Velocity23]

 

 

 

I was laughing at this scene and then cheered for Lyla/Felicity.

[KayElektra]

I need some sleep, but here are my quick thoughts:

 

- LOVED THIS EP

- there was some seriously bad acting, and for once it wasn't from Katie

- LOVE Nyssa

 

Best lines:

- Laurel: "I put a tracking device on her." As Felicity runs up: "This isn't my first day."

- Felicity: "How did you get in here?" Thea: "My dad's a super villain and...you left your doors unlocked"

 

WORST LINES:

- In English: "Everyone get back!" "Away from this truck!" ...in CHINA.  Where they speak CHINESE.  Ok then.

 

Last quick thoughts: we already know the kid is going to die.  We've known it for about 17 weeks. WHY do we have to get 12 minutes of filler showing us how he dies.  The flashbacks used to help us understand things (and yes, I guess we're getting a tad bit about the poison BUT STILL).  These past few weeks are JUST FILLER and STOP IT.

 

ETA: I need more badass Thea.  I NEED IT.

Edited April 30, 2015 by KayElektra

[Velocity23]

 

I thought for a moment i was watching the begining of a bad porn scene that included Laurel Lance.

[looptab]

LOL

 

BTW, did anything trend on Twitter?

[Velocity23]

Nyssa i think.

[arjumand]

TBH I don't think even the best of actors could pull off the ridiculous number of these type of scenes EBR has had to perform this season and make them seem fresh and interesting. I'll never understand who thought it would be a great idea to take an actress who shines best at humor and charm and saddle her with so many breakdown scenes. Not a great plan. A handful is fine. A dozen is overkill.

 

 

 

I'm finding Felicity's reactions to be the most disappointing and OOC in this whole arc - where's the Felicity who cold-cocked her ex after spending an entire episode alternately tied up and menaced? That's the Felicity I want, not this weepy "let's all move on, unless I feel like crying in the foundry" Felicity.

 

To be honest, it's kind of confirming how I've been feeling about her all this season - when Oliver first told her they couldn't be together, she just gave up, immediately. If the writers had any insight into human nature, I would have expected someone to point out that she could have fought a bit, not give in straight away. A bit of "we're not over, until we both decide we're over, mister!"

 

And the same happens here - after spending the first act in denial, all it takes is a sword held to Nyssa's neck, and that's it. Felicity is done. And that's Nyssa, who's hardly an innocent.

 

Also, like a few posters here, I'm starting to think Oliver isn't really brainwashed. I'm thinking that either the shock of believing he's killed Diggle snapped him out of it, or he was never brainwashed in the first place, in which case he knew he was killing a league member.

 

Again, what does he actually do, in Starling? He tries to bring Nyssa in, without involving anyone - who knows what he might have whispered to Nyssa when he had her on the ropes, if the league of doofuses hadn't turned up (seriously, that Canary Cry with the wide open mouth looked seriously weird). There was never any intention of killing her, because R'as always had the wedding in mind.

 

Then he has to raise the stakes, and chooses the one right person to kidnap: Lyla. Diggle would have swapped the entire city for her, let alone Nyssa. And she was the one "soft target" who wouldn't have been traumatized by the experience. Also, when she starts giving him lip, a truly brainwashed Ollie would have shut her up, somehow.

 

As others have mentioned, he let Felicity not be searched, and so she gave Lyla the guns. Brainwashed Oliver would have searched her himself.

 

Though if he's faking, he was really lucky that Thea shot him, because I don't know how he would have avoided killing Diggle then.

 

So at this point I don't know, really, though that double take when R'as announced his dynastic plans was both funny and hinted that Ollie might be himself. I mean, why would Darth Oliver / Oliver T-800 care if he was going to get married or not?

 

So I'm kinda in two minds here. Knowing the way these writers' minds work, they probably think it would be cool if Diggle or someone 'kills' Oliver, only for us to find out that he was faking the brainwashing and trying to save them all.

Edited April 30, 2015 by arjumand

[wonderwall]

I know a lot of people feel as though Felicity has been crying a lot this season... She has. I'm in between being bothered by it and not being bothered by it. I would've been bothered by it if I didn't think she had reason to cry. Like episode 21. Felicity learned that not only did Oliver lose his life but he lost his soul as well and that's a fate much worse than she anticipated. The thing is, I understand why she cries. I'm surprised she hasn't gone the destructive route like Laurel, Quentin, and even Oliver have in the past. But I just hate that she cries so much! It's not because I think it makes her whiny or weak (which I don't), it's because I just want something good to happen to her for once.

 

Felicity crying in the foundry after she told Thea that they had to move on was poignant because moving on isn't easy. In the end Diggle gets to go home to Lyla and his baby, Thea is going to Roy, but who does Felicity have? All she has is an empty apartment and a destroyed foundry which was the first place that ever felt like home to her (if you guys recall from the deleted scenes of season 2). That's just so sad. 

 

I want Felicity to end in a very happy place by the end of the season and I don't want her to cry as much next season. It's not that I don't think Emily can handle it or that I'm annoyed, but I need my lighter Felicity back even if it is only for a few episodes

[Password]

If anything, Felicity breaking down with Laurel and breaking down in the foundry made me remember how few "people" she has. Like @wonderwall mentioned Thea now has Roy, Digg has his family. One of my greatest annoyances this year is that the writers gave Felicity a "life" by swapping out men and jobs instead of new friends and family to connect with. She's so isolated without her TA family it's heart breaking.

Is she going to be consoled by Ray now? I really want someone around for her. No, not Ray. Although goodness knows what

their moment

will be about. More jet and jello no doubt. Or encouraging her. Agh whatever just someone hold her.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Password

[Pete Martell]

Did Felicity REALLY just call Oliver 'Ollie'? REALLY?! REALLY???? 

 

Ugh. I'm gonna tweet the arrow writers room to never do that again. 

 

When I think of archers named Ollie, I know he has precedence, but I end up thinking of that poor kid on Game of Thrones, so it creates a...weird cognitive dissonance to hear her say it. 

 

On the positive side, I get to distract myself with imagining a Jon/Oliver broodoff while Felicity and Sam update badly out of date filing systems and talk about how annoying stoic leading men can be 24/7.

[looptab]

- there was some seriously bad acting, and for once it wasn't from Katie

 

Who was it from? :)

[paigow]

Nyliver is Brady Bunch level incestuous...like Greg marrying Marcia.

[blixie]

Oliver is just on Forget Me Now's, so he right now he has a sort of temporary forgettingness. So he's only kinda brainwashed in as much as it is convenient for the writers to mitigate whatever horrible things he might have done if Thea and Ra's didn't again conveniently stop him, but he's totally EVIL and brainwashed and also faking. All three, whatever works for you, are you all trying to say that doesn't make perfect fucking sense?

[Xantar]

I will say this for the show:

 

Even though Stephen Amell and Katrina Law are both insanely attractive and have shown in the past that they are capable of having chemistry with almost anyone, I don't detect a hint of chemistry between them here. 

[Primetimer]

You have to jump through a lot of evil hoops to become the head of the League of Assassins.

Read the story

[TV Anonymous]

When Ra's announced the marriage, my thought was, "Does he know that his daughter plays for the other team?" Also, "Do we not have enough show for that issue?" *cough*Glee*cough*

 

So the new Canary Cry device that Laurel asked Cisco to build is actually in her throat that she screams out? I thought it was a sonic weapon that she threw at her target.

Edited April 30, 2015 by TV Anonymous

[Pyramid]

What a steaming great pile of if illogical wank that was.

Are you only allowed to destroy a city in League approved fashion, and an earthquake machine isn't one of them?

All of Laurel and Nyssa scenes read like really poor fanfic to me. And Laurel lasted more than half a second fighting two League of Assassin members. That's flat out idiotic. League of Half-ASSassins, amirite?

To be fair, I'm at the point that when Laurel is on the screen I just zone out, so I really can't comment with any accuracy on her scenes.

It's disgusting that a straight man is being forced to marry a gay woman, but not as disgusting as dipping chips into a milkshake. Is that a thing? Are you Americans trying to usher in the end of days?

This whole LofA storyline is just bafflingly inept. There's too much bad about it to even begin.
Thea still talks to Malcolm, who is still alive, and still not arrested.

The flashback had no point.

 

I liked very much that Thea and Felicity actually talked to each other, and I really liked the Dig Felicity scenes. That was about it.

 

Edited to add: The Canary Cry. Lol. What a fucking idiot she looked.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Pyramid

[kismet]

Oh my goodness... where do I begin? That episode was what is was... which was a whole lot of fast fwd. It was standard s3 Arrow. Predictable plot & out of the blue prophecy/rules. Laurel somehow made saving another person seem like annoying chore. Seriously, didn't like one thing about her this episode. Thea showed her whiny side for a little bit again, I'm glad we got to see her kickass side too (plz writers stick with this side). Felicity & Diggle even felt off outside of the dinner scene. I mean I get they're grieving with bonus stages this time around - but it really felt like they had no fight left in them to even try. Where is Roy when you need him? Event the stunts felt more telegraphic than usual.

 

It was so predictable, it was almost sad. I went in with such low expectations, and they couldn't even make those. Who never knew Arrow could be so funny? Sadly, I was laughing at the screen this time around. If your gonna steal plot lines, at least make them look good. The flashbacks felt like a poor knock-off of Alias. And the present, well it was a poor Batman rip-off.

 

Good things - The little Diglet Sara was the cutest thing ever, here's hoping thats the last time we ever have to wonder what Uncle DarthOliver will do to her. I did sorta enjoy DarthOliver at times. He was more badass, like s1 OQ/Arrow. SA sold it, although still believe OQ is in there just plotting his way out. I did like the brainwashing scenes, thought they were well filmed & seemed realistic.

 

One burning question though - Did OQ/ASH learn to fly? Because he just stepped off a building with no injury like it was nothing. Between that and his arrows into airspace that allow him to fly away on previous episodes, I'm beginning to think Tatsu put some pixie dust into those magic herbs... cuz OQ/ASH can sorta fly now. Kinda cool.

[Angel12d]

Yeah, count me in as one of those fed up of seeing Felicity cry. Nothing to do with EBR and whether she is capable or not - I think she's come on in leaps and bounds acting wise - but I'm so tired of seeing her upset. I understand that this was to show/reiterate that Felicity is happiest when Oliver is in her life but ugh. I just want to see her happy again. 

 

I actually would have preferred it if she went to dinner with Laurel and they both stared at their fries sadly - but together. LOL.

[kismet]

Oh forgot to mention my favorite part. OQ's face when he found out he had to marry Nyssa. It was like I did not sign up for this! Sure kill random people, destroy cities, find justice in some pretty messed up ways. But dude, I draw the line at forced marriages... It was just perfect.  Nyssa's reaction was pretty spot on. Safe to say, I think the audience felt exactly the same way as both of them. Here's hoping somebody finds a way out of this. I feel like this season should have a horse race on who is gonna wind up being the worst father by the end of it. Both Malcolm & Ras seem to be gunning hard for the title.

Edited April 30, 2015 by kismet

[TV Anonymous]

Oh, one other thing. Do the writers expect us to believe that someone with Katie Cassidy's body eats large hamburger with fries and milk shake on regular basis?

[ottoDbusdriver]

WORST LINES:

- In English: "Everyone get back!" "Away from this truck!" ...in CHINA.  Where they speak CHINESE.  Ok then.

 

That was pretty awful -- was the subtitling machine broken and Ollie suddenly forgot to speak Chinese ? Ollie's warning in English basically warned nobody.  Well done. </snark>

I was really disappointed when Felicity was playing with product-placement-of-the-week Microsoft Surface tablet running Windows 8 -- because Felicity would know better not to use such a piece of shit.

 

I was beginning to think that J. J. Abrams had taken over the episode with all the lens flares during the big fight scene after the Lyla/Nyssa exchange.  They are so annoying,

 

I was hoping that Thea would show up in a red hood as a tribute to Arsenal, because at that point in the episode she still thought Roy was dead.

[bethy]

What has been so strange to me about this season, in a show called "Arrow," is how much time has been spent on characters other than the main character and how much time has been spent tearing down the main character and/or separating him from the core people on his show. Now they've brainwashed him (I'm hoping it's a long con, but still) and made him a different person altogether. I get that for drama purposes you need tension or whatever, but dang. The show is called Arrow. Can we have the main character - a hero - acting heroically at some point soon. 

[Chaser]

Yeah, count me in as one of those fed up of seeing Felicity cry. Nothing to do with EBR and whether she is capable or not - I think she's come on in leaps and bounds acting wise - but I'm so tired of seeing her upset. I understand that this was to show/reiterate that Felicity is happiest when Oliver is in her life but ugh. I just want to see her happy again. 

 

I actually would have preferred it if she went to dinner with Laurel and they both stared at their fries sadly - but together. LOL.

The writers decided that Felicity would carry the emotional weight of the season and I want to punch them for that. In context I have no problem with her crying, but its just so much. And it highlights that this season has been a total drag. 

 

I'm with SA, I need the first 40 mins of The Calm. 

[bethy]

Oh, one other thing. Do the writers expect us to believe that someone with Katie Cassidy's body eats large hamburger with fries and milk shake on regular basis?

 

Well, sure. All actors and actresses are naturally slim and athletic. They don't really have to work out or starve themselves to stay skinny. They can all "eat anything"! It's just the rest of us slobs who have to work at it.

[Delphi]

I thought that lens flare was my television being stupid, that's how bad that was.

I forgot to mention earlier that I was insanely happy that Malcolm got shown the door after last week's episode and it was pretty much Dig and Felicity watching over Thea for Oliver. That makes so much more sense than letting evil brainwashing bio dad take point.

[Chaser]

I feel like Evil!Oliver is up to interpretation. He may have been ready to kill Diggle, but he wouldn't let Maseo search Felicity.

[AustenChick]

It is funny that the ONLY person I've seen Laurel have chemistry with -- like romantic chemistry with -- is yet another one of Sara's lovers -- Nyssa. Were they trying to go for the sexy vibe? Because Laurel's passionate defense of Nyssa felt, well, more than just "we're friends that train and beat other people up."

[TrueMyth]

I enjoyed the episode, though I feel I enjoyed it despite the plot.  The character moments were wonderful for nearly every character, and I'm so happy with the scenes with Felicity and Thea.

 

I am sad at how quickly they seem to be writing off Oliver after Felicity's awesome, in-character determination last week.  I can accept them taking the past three weeks to grieve and accept, but the news that Oliver was betrayed and brainwashed should have spurred Diggle, Felicity, and Thea to begin making plans, not to despair.  The plan they came up with not only lost them Nyssa, it didn't target Oliver in any way.  Sad.  Diggle and Lyla even said they had experience with such brainwashing, so couldn't they come up with something to intercede with Oliver beyond Felicity's "I know you're still in there."  I wouldn't mind them losing this time.  Two more episodes to go, after all.

 

Thinking about this, I'd have preferred that Oliver kidnaps Felicity and has a private moment to reveal that he is holding on or that there is a glimmer of his old self in there.  It would make the pain of the wedding news that much more meaningful.  If they wanted a full episode of Ollie al Ghul, they really should have inducted him earlier.

 

Speaking of that, if Ra's was going to brainwash him, why didn't he just do that when he caught him during Operation Rescue Malcolm for Thea's Soul Or Whatever?  I only see two reasons: 1) The brainwashing process requires some form of acceptance on the part of the victim (which is crap because that's not what brainwashing is), or 2) "Ra's has already written the story" and Ra's is a horrible writer.  Makes me want an episode like the X-files's Musings of a Cigarette Smoking Man where Ra's gets rejection letter after rejection letter for his romantic thriller dribble about a billionaire turned reluctant assassin.

Edited April 30, 2015 by TrueMyth

[pigs-in-space]

Well, on the bright side...there was no earring on Al Sah-him.

[AzureOwl]

Was it never possible for Nyssa to become the next Ra's? What hometown would she have destroyed? My only hope now is that she destroys Nanda Parbat and ends the whole mess.

I’ve been thinking about this since last night ant I’ve come to the conclusion that it actually makes perfect sense… once you realize that the current Ra’s al Ghul is clearly attempting to subvert the normal selection process for the Heir to the Demon.

Based on what we’ve learned so far about Ra’s and his predecessor, the way it supposed to work is that the current Ra’s al Ghul chooses a worthy man as his successor, inducts him willingly or unwillingly into the League and as the final part of his training/indoctrination sends him the devastate his home town (But not totally destroy it. Notice that Alexandria is still one of Egypt’s most important cities) to destroy all connections to his past.

The position is not meant to be hereditary, which makes perfect sense when we take into account the fact that each Ra’s lives for over two hundred years. The potential for having dozens or hundreds of children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren all scheming to take the throne is just too large. It’s the Walder Frey scenario dialed up to eleven.

But the current Ra’s very clearly intends to change this and make the leadership of the League a hereditary position. First he makes his own daughter the Heir apparent, which as Reba has pointed out, is completely at odds with the standard operating procedure, and even now that he has reverted to the traditional method, he is still gaming the system to make sure his bloodline remains in control of Nanda Parbat.

[kismet]

I feel like OQ's past tortures & history either make him:

 

1. More susceptible to mind conditioning like they showed, so that it can happen in 3 wks (esp with drugs). His body & mind have already been broken, so if they use his PTSD & previous tortures to their advantage it might work. Sorta use all his mental fault lines to break him down again. Yes, OQ has survived torture before. But unless, they forgot to tell us something I don't believe he was ever trained to withstand torture & mind conditioning. (But I might have missed something).

 

2. More capable to play the long con. Fulfill certain expectations. He has been tortured & conditioned himself, as well as tortured & conditions others - so he knows what Ras is expecting.

 

Honestly, as the episode played out I believe it was more of 2 than 1. There was just too many small moments that indicated that DarthOliver may be just part of an act. But I believe the answer will be it is some combination of both. In the beginning of the episode, when the condition was fresh & drugs stronger he really did seem not under his own devices. However, as the episode progressed (esp after he got to SC) he seemed to have more control of his mind & actions. Perhaps as the conditioning wears off the control he has over his mind & actions fluctuates. So in the next episode we'll probably see both DarthOliver & OQ, as his mind/body works off the effects of the conditioning.

 

I don't think its a simple brainwashed v. not brainwashed. He is somewhere in between which is realistic considering his history & overall strength of mind. But its also the perfect situation for the writers, because they can do whatever they want and write it both ways.

[Chaos Theory]

Can this show still be called "Arrow" withou Oliver Queen because he is the only character on the show I do not like. I even like Laurel and I have liked her ever since the show made her a snarky alcoholic: I am easy to please.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[DrSpaceman10]

That guy that Oliver killed at the beginning of the episode was the first person that Oliver's killed since 2x07, right? What a waste, all of that character development just to throw it away for perhaps the stupidest plot this show has ever done. 

[BkWurm1]

I feel like OQ's past tortures & history either make him:

1. More susceptible to mind conditioning like they showed, so that it can happen in 3 wks (esp with drugs). His body & mind have already been broken, so if they use his PTSD & previous tortures to their advantage it might work. Sorta use all his mental fault lines to break him down again. Yes, OQ has survived torture before. But unless, they forgot to tell us something I don't believe he was ever trained to withstand torture & mind conditioning. (But I might have missed something).

2. More capable to play the long con. Fulfill certain expectations. He has been tortured & conditioned himself, as well as tortured & conditions others - so he knows what Ras is expecting.

Honestly, as the episode played out I believe it was more of 2 than 1. There was just too many small moments that indicated that DarthOliver may be just part of an act. But I believe the answer will be it is some combination of both. In the beginning of the episode, when the condition was fresh & drugs stronger he really did seem not under his own devices. However, as the episode progressed (esp after he got to SC) he seemed to have more control of his mind & actions. Perhaps as the conditioning wears off the control he has over his mind & actions fluctuates. So in the next episode we'll probably see both DarthOliver & OQ, as his mind/body works off the effects of the conditioning.

I don't think its a simple brainwashed v. not brainwashed. He is somewhere in between which is realistic considering his history & overall strength of mind. But its also the perfect situation for the writers, because they can do whatever they want and write it both ways.

You very well maybe right. My other working theory is this episode is written in a somewhat ambiguous manner purposely to set us up in the next episode so they could have Oliver trick them into believing he's not brainwashed when he really is though that's kind of stupid since it only the audience that might be questioning his indoctrination. Diggle has written him off and while Felicity brought up the idea of trying to save Oliver, even when she did she prefaced it with it not really being an option. There is a very OOC attitude in TA right now.

It's plot over character again cause instead of them being convinced Oliver is lost to them forever and is as good as already dead, they should be saying they have no way of getting to him and undoing his programming. Cause the same problem exists from 3.20, where could they go to hide from the league? Surely Lyla has a contact that specializes in deprograming assets if they could drug him and lock him in a room.

I'm ok with the team being knocked back cause no one expected this (which is why talking to Nyssa three weeks ago would have been helpful) and I even can believe the team would think they can't physically get to Oliver, but this idea that his mind and soul is FOREVER lost already is forced beyond belief. The best I can do is fanwank that Diggle is too pissed to see reason and Felicity believes Diggle would know better.

I take consolation in that while Felicity was trying to convince Thea that all they could do was move on, she wasn't convinced herself, nor had her feelings for him changed. She's bowing to Diggle's experience but still clinging deep down to hope.

I have trouble understanding half the words Ra's al Ghul says,

Yup, made use of my closed-captioning pretty much every time he was on screen. Edited April 30, 2015 by BkWurm1

[BumpSetSpike]

Parts of this episode were fantastic and parts were so gosh darn melodramatic that I laughed in places that TPTB probably didn't intend for me to laugh.  In other words, this episode was all over the place for me, and that is not a good thing.

 

Diggle.  Diggle, Diggle, Diggle.  I realized tonight that he has become my favorite character.  I knew that when Evil Oliver put that sword through him in the beginning that it wasn't really Diggle so the "scare" factor wasn't there for losing him.  I get that they were doing the whole hallucinatory thing and all of the intimate things Diggle talked about, it was like "really?"  Kind of like how I feel with the altered Vertigo affects, just makes me shake my head.

 

SA played the part really well, very convincingly evil.  I remember seeing in past panels how he loves playing the villain, and you can see that it shows during this episode.  But that deeper voice thing was just too much - I kept wondering if he gave himself a sore throat doing that voice those weeks in production which totally kicked me out of the storyline.

 

KC cannot act.  Although I think Laurel is a wasted character on this show, I never really harped on KC's acting.  But tonight, it was just...ugh.  I'm sorry, but those lines she delivered to Nyssa were just done so badly.  Even my tween daughter looked at me and we both rolled our eyes. 

 

Nyssa.  Wow, that woman is beautiful and a badass.   We definitely need to get her on Team Arrow for S4 because having someone like that is what TA needs to truly fight for the city.   And Thea is definitely growing on me this season and I loved how she shot Oliver in the arm (and SA's reaction to it as if it was a fly on his arm was entertaining).

 

Fast forwarded through the entire flashbacks for the second week in a row.  Just have no interest in them at all.

 

Finally, I'm so friggin annoyed at TPTB for making Starling City the victim of their finale FOR THE THIRD TIME!  Seriously, whoever the hell stays in that city after the earthquake, mirakuru soldiers, and now a bioweapon need their head checked.  It is like they cannot come up with a better plot line for a finale other than "save the city" yet again.

 

Off to read everyone else's thoughts now that I got mine out.

Edited April 30, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[blixie]

 

Oliver trick them into believing he's not brainwashed when he really is though that's kind of stupid

 

Right? Why would brainwashed Oliver be tricking anyone into thinking he's not brainwashed? That my issue with trying to play it ambiguously( though I agree that there are degrees of brainwashing),but ultimately it's still a y/n question, you are either autonomously thinking for yourself OR you are not. If he's tricking someone he's not brainwashed.

[KirkB]

The thing is, I'm not sure it IS brainwashing, per se. What Malcolm did to Thea is. He drugged her and compelled her to do something she would never have done on her own. But Ra's isn't really forcing Oliver to do anything he hasn't casually done in the past. Swearing off killing is a pretty new thing for him, where it was ingrained in him for the last eight or so years. What Ra's is doing seems to be more lowering Oliver's inhibitions, making him more willing to go back to doing what he was doing for years anyway. It's not like Ra's is making Oliver INTO a killer, like Malcolm did with Thea. After all Oliver would be the first to admit he is not a good person and Ra's is just taking advantage of that. 

[looptab]

What I don't understand is..didn't they all get the vaccine in flashbacks? Tatsu, Maseo, Akio, and Oliver? Why is Akio affected anyway?

 

Also, where did Laurel find that tracking device? Was she raiding the Foundry while they weren't there, as I suspected all along?

[arjumand]

Honestly, as the episode played out I believe it was more of 2 than 1. There was just too many small moments that indicated that DarthOliver may be just part of an act. But I believe the answer will be it is some combination of both. In the beginning of the episode, when the condition was fresh & drugs stronger he really did seem not under his own devices. However, as the episode progressed (esp after he got to SC) he seemed to have more control of his mind & actions. Perhaps as the conditioning wears off the control he has over his mind & actions fluctuates. So in the next episode we'll probably see both DarthOliver & OQ, as his mind/body works off the effects of the conditioning.

 

I don't think its a simple brainwashed v. not brainwashed. He is somewhere in between which is realistic considering his history & overall strength of mind. But its also the perfect situation for the writers, because they can do whatever they want and write it both ways.

 

That's a really interesting theory and I both love it and hate it (ha writers, see what I did there?). I love it because it would explain all the little moments that would otherwise make no sense.

Just one of these - the aborted search of Felicity. Back in Nanda Parbat, R'as made an enormous fuss about the assassins killed when they tried to sneak Oliver out. But now, a couple of assassins get ventilated by Lyla JUST BECAUSE Oliver got careless with Felicity, and nothing is said? None of the surviving assassins went to their boss and said, "Hey boss, you know the new kid? Well, we're not impressed"? Maseo didn't say anything? Is he in on it too?

 

But I hate it because it hurts me to see how they want to have their cake and eat it - he's brainwashed! No he isn't! Wait, maybe he's just half brainwashed! Isn't that like being a little pregnant?

 

I would like to believe that he was mostly under, then R'as decided to push his luck and made him kill someone, which made Oliver snap out of it. I've watched the scene with Not-Diggle again, because something struck me the first time - Not-Diggle says "They're lying to you" twice. He also says he is there to remind Oliver of who he is. Now all this was Oliver's brain filling in the blanks - that guy probably never said anything. So when Oliver hears that he's being lied to, that's his unconscious saying that the man in front of him isn't Diggle. Also, if he was really having doubts about his identity, the fake-Diggle was there to remind him and even chastise him. Those were only initial hints - actually seeming to put a sword through his best friend is traumatic enough that it might make the whole brainwashing process start to unravel.

 

OTOH, it just might be the writers being clever - Ha ha, fooled you! He was brainwashed all along!

 

Ugh.

[AyChihuahua]

Ratings were down, fairly significantly from the Olicity sex episode.  During sweeps.  Hopefully Guggie gets it through his moron head that constant misery does not sell on a superhero show.

[blixie]

 

The thing is, I'm not sure it IS brainwashing, per se.

 

 

No one is sure, that's the whole point. They had Nyssa imply he is no longer Oliver Queen that all that he was was wiped away, they had Felicity describe it as "mind voodoo', they had Malcolm reiterate the same, they visually showed him being deprived/tortured/indoctinated, he was given drugs, and every other single character who loves him claims "he's not himself" or "gone". I'm not arguing if he is or isn't brainwashed but the writers want the average viewer to believe he is, that he underwent that process and it was to varying degrees a success, and that there is still some hope because he didn't do anything really bad yet, which we don't actually know was a consequence of his own will, because his fight with Diggle was interrupted by Thea's arrow, and  his death blow to Nyssa was interrupted by Ras. They were careful to never give us actual Oliver POV outside the hallucination about Diggle, when he was obviously and very definitely under the influence of yet again some more magic dug herbs. 

[catrox14]

Ratings were down, fairly significantly from the Olicity sex episode. During sweeps. Hopefully Guggie gets it through his moron head that constant misery does not sell on a superhero show.

Eh. I dunno. There were basketball and hockey playoffs, the Baltimore situation other stuff people might have been watching. I'll be curious about the DVR ratings.

Edited April 30, 2015 by catrox14

[Velocity23]

There were some preemptions last week also. Also Baseball/Basketball games.

[AyChihuahua]

There's always something else to watch...people choosing to watch sports instead is still choosing to watch something else instead. 

[TwistedandBored]

Looks like it is one of those episodes where I am better off watching the scenes I want on YT. Thanks for the review guys. 

[apinknightmare]

There's always something else to watch...people choosing to watch sports instead is still choosing to watch something else instead. 

 

True, but people are much more likely to watch a sporting event live and DVR the show they'd usually watch during that time (or watch it online or through other means). Since it's pretty easy to avoid spoilers for a CW show, and it's not so easy to avoid spoilers for a sporting event. 

[AyChihuahua]

Do DVR viewings count the same, though, for ratings/money purposes?  Because people usually fast forward past commercials.

[catrox14]

There's always something else to watch...people choosing to watch sports instead is still choosing to watch something else instead. 

 

Sports is something that most viewers want to watch live. So yes, I will watch a playoff basketball game live before Arrow which I can watch DVR or on-demand or online later. Although I will switch between things, but I'm not a Neilsen family so it doesn't matter anyway.