S03.E21: Al Sah-him

[apinknightmare]

Do DVR viewings count the same, though, for ratings/money purposes?  Because people usually fast forward past commercials.

 

Not sure - I think they only count if you watch a certain percentage of the commercials. I just meant that those people probably aren't choosing to watch something else and never watch Arrow, they'll just watch Arrow later. Even though it'll only count if they watch it "correctly." 

[AyChihuahua]

I don't know, this episode at least some people will probably choose never to watch.

[Chaser]

The problem with the DVR viewers is that it allows time for negative feedback to reach them, or for them to get distracted. 

 

That's why I think LIVE viewers are so important.

[tv echo]

That guy that Oliver killed at the beginning of the episode was the first person that Oliver's killed since 2x07, right? What a waste, all of that character development just to throw it away for perhaps the stupidest plot this show has ever done. 

When Oliver and Diggle went to Nanda Parbat to rescue Malcolm a few episodes ago, it looked like they were killing random LOA guys (with bullets and arrows) on their way in.  In response to a fan tumblr question, MG said something like they were just injured, but they sure looked dead-dead to me.

Edited April 30, 2015 by tv echo

[Moya the Leviathan]

Dear R'as:

Please stop binge-watching "Say Yes to the Dress."  You are the Demon's Head, not some two-bit Republican congressman behind in the polls.

 

P.S. A man conversant with genetically engineered plague weapons should be able to wrap his head around IVF if he's so invested in becoming grandpappy.  

[dtissagirl]

When they kill people out of the U.S., it totes doesn't count! Just like it didn't count when Diggle's coat blew up all those prison guards in Russia.

Edited April 30, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Ang]

I quite liked the beginning of the episode! The Diggle fake-out was effective, there was reference to Team Arrow actually doing stuff in Starling, Laurel and Nyssa were a delight to watch (if you ignored the fact that KC has probably not had a milkshake or french fry in years), and dinner at the Diggles was everything. And then the seams and fraying edges started to show and I got sad. 

 

We now know definitively why Ra's wanted Oliver as heir: Oliver's hot. Despite having his tush handed to him in the fight with Ra's, shirtless!Oliver's was enough to win Ra's over to the point that Ra's encourages goodbye nookie with his girl and sets him up with Nyssa. 

 

What on earth was up with all the scenes of people sitting around moping about Oliver being gone?? It's the second time they've lost him in a matter of months and the third time he's "died;" you would think they'd have coping mechanisms in place by now, or at least an easier time wrapping their heads around the possibility. Honestly, I'm really pissed because it means there isn't a Team Arrow long con in place, which is super frustrating. And I'm here for Felicity and yet I'm so DONE with scenes of her weeping, wailing, whining, whatever. WHY do we need to see those scenes? What point are they trying to make, besides undermining the character?

 

Let me just pull out the dead horse and start beating it again: the writing on this show needs another layer of oversight or editing. They need somebody with a less insulated perspective asking questions like, what are we accomplishing in this scene/episode? Is everyone acting in accordance with established character traits and visible or hidden motivations? How do real people react in a situation like this, and how can we amplify that in one direction or another to bump up impact? Or whatever, I don't know how this works. You know how when you're working so hard on a project with a set group of people, you can start losing perspective until little tiny details that don't actually impact the final product much start to take over and you overlook pretty massive things? I just feel like the creative team is stuck in a box. I mean, ChronicOlicity's fanfic "You're His Hope" hit a lot of the same LOA beats as we're getting here, but in a way that is arguably way more interesting, impactful, and entertaining. The writers are recycling old plot points (ancient and mysterious herbs, anyone?) more than the production team is recycling sets, and it just feels like a lack of creativity.

 

I know you're just a dumb show on the CW, but I just want to love you! Why won't you let me love you, Show??

 

Super stoked for an evil wedding next week, though! Hopefully we'll have some fun with it contrasted with the Diggle wedding.

[BunsenBurner]

I believe Oliver is working with Waller and Maseo to stop the A/O drug, Maseo to avenge his son and Oliver because he failed in Hong Kong. I think SA did a great job selling Evil Oliver. OQ may be drugged but his mind is still fighting hard against it and it is telling in that he didn't hurt anyone in his 'family'.

Felicity has done way too much crying this season but I think in this episode it was done for all the right reasons. The funny thing about all of this is that she still has remained badass when the writers were actually writing in character. It came through in a big way this week.

It was wrong to leave baby Sara in the crib but I'd rather her there than being kidnapped. She is adorable.

Diggle was great and the 'family' dinner was believable with Thea.

The LL scenes were too robotic with Nyssa. It really looked like LL was the one being drugged instead of Oliver. Maybe KL was so much better in character that she sucked the life out of KC. Still no improvement in being able to fight, LOA great but street thug is better than her makes no sense. Can't do an LL scene without whining. I'm so tired of her whining.

Somehow I think Lyla is in on the con or she figured it out. She is something else. We need to keep her and give her more fight scenes.

LL going against TA for wanting to give Nyssa to Oliver for Lyla was ridiculous.

I also think Nyssa may be in on it and that was why she was upset with Laurel for not telling her Oliver was in town.

The looks on both Oliver and Nyssa was funny when told they would have to marry. So wrong if Guggie actually makes them marry. I'm holding on by a thread watching this show and he is doing me no favors in wanting to come back next season.

Loved Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Thea, Nyssa, and baby Sara. The rest meh.

Edited April 30, 2015 by BunsenBurner

[fantique]

WORST LINES:

- In English: "Everyone get back!" "Away from this truck!" ...in CHINA.  Where they speak CHINESE.  Ok then.

Devil's advocate, in Hong Kong, a lot of people (especially the older generation) have some rudimentary english skills, it's an ex British colony and was only "given back" to China in the 90s. Also, hand motions of a crazy white guy with a gun shouting should be enough of a directive to GTFO.

 

 

TBH I don't think even the best of actors could pull off the ridiculous number of these type of scenes EBR has had to perform this season and make them seem fresh and interesting. I'll never understand who thought it would be a great idea to take an actress who shines best at humor and charm and saddle her with so many breakdown scenes. Not a great plan. A handful is fine. A dozen is overkill.

 

I know a lot of people feel as though Felicity has been crying a lot this season... She has. I'm in between being bothered by it and not being bothered by it. I would've been bothered by it if I didn't think she had reason to cry. Like episode 21. Felicity learned that not only did Oliver lose his life but he lost his soul as well and that's a fate much worse than she anticipated. The thing is, I understand why she cries. I'm surprised she hasn't gone the destructive route like Laurel, Quentin, and even Oliver have in the past. But I just hate that she cries so much! It's not because I think it makes her whiny or weak (which I don't), it's because I just want something good to happen to her for once.

 

Felicity crying in the foundry after she told Thea that they had to move on was poignant because moving on isn't easy. In the end Diggle gets to go home to Lyla and his baby, Thea is going to Roy, but who does Felicity have? All she has is an empty apartment and a destroyed foundry which was the first place that ever felt like home to her (if you guys recall from the deleted scenes of season 2). That's just so sad. 

 

I want Felicity to end in a very happy place by the end of the season and I don't want her to cry as much next season. It's not that I don't think Emily can handle it or that I'm annoyed, but I need my lighter Felicity back even if it is only for a few episodes

Re: Felicity crying. Yeah, I'm firmly in the "stop it, stop it right now" camp; It's getting ridiculous. They found out after season two that people don't just see Felicity as a comic relief but as a fully fledged character that they connect with. So they decided to dump all of the emotional weight on her so that us dumb viewers know when it's time to feel sad in case we are all psychopaths devoid of sympathy. Sara is dead? Cry, Emily. Oliver is dead? Cry harder! Just like they used her all season as a propping device, they also use her to telegraph "the team is real sad, y'all! She's crying!"

 

EBR seems like she might be getting fed up just because of how ridiculous this situation is. Just last episode she was willing to go down fighting and now she collapses. Yes the reason are legitimate but at some point, regardless of how reasonable it is, all the viewers remember is her crying constantly. They need to stop looking for reasons to have her crying or they need to find another coping mechanism for the character and reserve the crying for 3 times a season. Her other coping mechanism she has displayed so far are denial (continues to work like he will come back) and reinvention (change the team to become something that doesn't need Oliver). They could have shown her in a scene working on something or even have her leaving a message on Caitlin's phone or ANYTHING that is not related to lacrymal glands. Now this episode, Felicity and Laurel comforting each other would've worked really well. They could've been just eating ice cream or something. Or show Laurel looking at Felicity's milkshake and not ordering one.

Edited April 30, 2015 by fantique

[Chaser]

I would have liked them to have skipped the Felicity and Laurel scene last episode and replaced it with a heartbroken Felicity breaking down in the lair after coming back from Nanda.

 

I was hoping we would get pissed off Felicity at Oliver. We kind of did, but not really.

[wonderwall]

I wonder if the fact that the LoA doesn't use tech, do cover up their faces so it's difficult to track them, etc. is part of the reason why Felicity hasn't done much regarding the LoA storyline? It's easier for Felicity to be behind the computer and guide the team if it's just a normal villain that lives in the 21st century, but for the LoA, the use of tech would be moot unless the tech is basically a weapon. This is probably why Felicity has been given the duty to bring on the emotion whilst the other character go out into the field?  I'm grateful that Felicity has done more in the past two episodes though. 

 

I have just resigned myself into thinking Felicity will cry for the last two episodes. I just hope she doesn't cry as much next season. Which I honestly don't think she will. EBR seems to be frustrated by it so hopefully she has a chat with the writers. But I also don't think that Felicity crying more is ruining the character. I think that her character has changed this year. Felicity has become a bit stronger (regardless of the crying) and I think that's all that matters to me. 

 

But yeah, next season, I don't want to see Felicity cry more than twice. That's it. I just want Felicity to just not get crapped on for once because this season has been rough on her. 

 

As for Felicity having a good outlet, I don't think she has one which is why she cries. Like I said, Felicity doesn't really have anyone. All she has is an empty apartment and a destroyed foundry that was once her home. I also don't think that her and Laurel are friendly enough to go to one another? I just feel as though they're more colleagues and they just go to one another when they want to pass along information or are working on a mission. BUT I must admit, this episode would've been a good one to maybe introduce a friendship. 

 

I can only imagine what Felicity was feeling because I've lost the supposed love of my life, but I can definitely imagine it not being fun at all. I like how Felicity was trying to keep it together for the episode until the end when she went into the foundry. However, I do think the moment would've been more powerful if Felicity hadn't cried as much this season. 

[paigow]

I wonder if the fact that the LoA doesn't use tech...

Except for the transwarp conduit between Nanda Parbat & Starling City....

[statsgirl]

There was a lot of good in this episode, namely everything that didn't have to do with Ra's, Evil Oliver or the LoA. Unfortunately it got completely overshadowed for me by the bad, and the bad plotting.  Maybe some day I'll be able to watch this without wanting to throw things at MG.

 

Even though Stephen Amell and Katrina Law are both insanely attractive and have shown in the past that they are capable of having chemistry with almost anyone, I don't detect a hint of chemistry between them here. 

I will attribute that to acting because they both are very hot.  Maybe someday, when Arrow is over, they can do a film or TV show together.

 

What I don't understand is..didn't they all get the vaccine in flashbacks? Tatsu, Maseo, Akio, and Oliver? Why is Akio affected anyway?

 

Also, where did Laurel find that tracking device? Was she raiding the Foundry while they weren't there, as I suspected all along?

She knew where the gun was when she wanted to shoot Komodo. In my head, she spent the summer casing out the lair, and later stocking up on what she needed since Oliver was so against her going out to fight.

 

Maybe Akio was too young for the vaccine?  Or more likely Plot Contrivance.

[BkWurm1]

They had four doses of the vaccine.   (Which I made me feel for the poor lady they were staying with) Some people must be resistant to it. 

 

Subject change.

 

I've read the comments, splashed in the spoilers, and generally admitted that there is a good chance that Oliver really is brainwashed and yet during my rewatch of the episode I had all the same reactions that screamed to me that this is just a fake out.  I’d even forgotten a couple things. 

 

Like where after Nyssa was rescued the first time and Oliver returns to the Starling Branch of the LoA and  Maseo says something along the lines of there was doubt you would return and then chides him for insisting on going out after Nyssa alone.  Between members of the LoA actually being suspicious and Oliver originally planning on bringing Nyssa in on his own without anyone watching him or there to observe what he says, sounds like Oliver in control to me.   

 

 

Also while Lyla is berating Oliver and asking what happened to him and how could you become this, Oliver tells Lyla, “Quiet, it will all be over soon.”  It plays both about the kidnapping and the thing Oliver has become.

 

It's all just a huge mind messing mess.

[Angel12d]

Out of interest, what do people think is better - that Oliver is actually brainwashed or he's faking? Oliver playing a long con wouldn't surprise me but how can his loved ones explain his behavior if that's the case? There's bound to be some things he won't be able to come back from, and killing and such feels like such a character regression at this point.

[DrSpaceman10]

I don't know which is better, because they're both bad. On one hand, if Oliver is faking that means he killed that guy on purpose (which seems like major character regression - he didn't even kill Slade or Malcolm), he kidnapped Lyla on purpose, and he's pretty much agreeing to marry Nyssa.

 

On the other hand if Oliver isn't faking being brainwashed all it took to break him was a few weeks and some cold water, which seems unlikely because he's been through/survived so much. I don't believe that Oliver would break that easily. 

 

Both options suck. 

[AyChihuahua]

I prefer faking, because I'm okay with him killing literally every LOA assassin except Nyssa, and that guy was probably an LOA assassin.  The other stuff is not that bad.  If he's really brainwashed, though, he's weak-willed as hell.  I mean seriously, I don't think my 8-year-old cousin would break from that sad-ass brainwashing.  He's been a complete and utter moron all season, so add in weak-willed and I can't root for him anymore.  I mean really, how many moronic superheroes are there?  The Tick?  At least The Tick is played for laughs.

Edited May 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[TanyaKay]

I think he is faking it because the show has established him to be a very strong man who has resisted various drugs, have beaten the lie detector and suffered torture for s long, three weeks in Nanda Parbat boot camp are nothing in comparison.

I think he is faking it because the show has established him to be a very strong man who has resisted various drugs, have beaten the lie detector and suffered torture for s long, three weeks in Nanda Parbat boot camp are nothing in comparison.

[KirkB]

If he's faking, what's his end game? He has effectively abandoned his friends and his city and is killing people and marrying Nyssa on orders from Ra's al Ghul. That's a hell of an undercover operation.

[Carrie Ann]

I think where I finally come down (um, tonight) is that Oliver is faking but that the drugs do have some effect on him, so he's not in 100% control at all times. He didn't tell anyone what he saw in that hallucination, so from a storytelling perspective, that was Oliver's vision. But like others have said, what he saw was his conscience (represented by Dig, which I LOVE so much) telling him that the LOA was lying to him, that he promised he would always remind Oliver of who he was if he ever forgot, and then the next thing Oliver says to his conscience is "Fight." (And then, okay, he stabs it, with a sword but WHATEVER.)

 

So all that in addition to the fact TA and Nyssa did not get seriously hurt, the fact that he didn't make Maseo search Felicity when he knows the kinds of things she's capable of, and other things mentioned above make me think he's faking. And yes, that is definitely preferable to me from a character perspective to him actually being brainwashed. Now I just wish that TA wouldn't have been so quick to believe that Oliver is so weak-willed.

[statsgirl]

Oliver's endgame could be that this is the only way he sees that Ra's will get off his back permanently.  He has to take Ra's down from inside the LoA otherwise they will continue to come after him and those he loves.

 

Remember, all season long Oliver's been thinking that the only way to handle things is by himself. I'd love to see in the finale that he finally accepts that he needs the help of others, his Team, Ray, Nyssa, to win but I've lost faith in the storytelling.

 

Out of interest, what do people think is better - that Oliver is actually brainwashed or he's faking? Oliver playing a long con wouldn't surprise me but how can his loved ones explain his behavior if that's the case? There's bound to be some things he won't be able to come back from, and killing and such feels like such a character regression at this point.

If Oliver is faking, and I think he is, then the fact that he did these things while in  his right mind is going to cause more problems between him and the people who love him, especially I think Diggle. That takes us further in terms of writing character for them, if MG ever decides he wants to write character rather than plot again.

 

The other reason I prefer faking it is because it's easier for him to come back from that in terms of his personality, although there may be large debts to pay to his Team.  But I think if it were true brain-washing, we wouldn't see the real Oliver Queen for a long, long time. And I have no interest in repeating the first two seasons of the show.

[Starfish35]

I can see the argument behind the Oliver is faking theory (only the student can defeat the master). But it's really hard for me to explain a few things. First, he really did kill that guy. Second, he would have killed Diggle if Thea hadn't stopped him. And third, he would have killed Nyssa if Ra's hadn't stopped him. I'm not sure how any of those could be planned for or faked.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Starfish35

[Actionmage]

To protect his loved ones, Starling City, and any other town that a Ra's might come from. Also, now that he is aware that he is to use the Alpha-Omega bioweapon, to protect the world.

 

The reason Oliver is alright enough with killing is that it is the amount of force that is needed for the threat. If he could have stayed in SC to fight Ra's and the League, I bet he'd have preferred that, but he had to gamble that the best chance to defeat Ra's and the LoA was to go to Nanda P. and do what was needed. They aren't known as the League of  Artisianal Cheesemakers (but they might do that on the side.) Whatever killing Olive has done since Thea's dip in the Lazarus Pit, he'll take on and bear that weight.  I can see him own up to his long game and refuse to take the "easy way" of blaming it on whatever drugs Ra's gave him. He knew it was a risk ( he might have to actually kill) and signed up anyway.

 

I do hope that there were team meetings on the planes taken to Nanda Parbat that we didn't see. Contingency plans being made.

 

Shifting moods, though....

 

I totally love that the #1 Rule of Dig and Lyla's home is "No Glocks on the dinner table." Not just polite, but safety-minded as well. :D

[kismet]

Im no expert on brainwashing. But I have read studies and taken classes that in behaviorisms, conditioning, cognitive restructuring & influence (consciously & subconsciously). What I think Ras did was attempt to use classic conditioning & torture methods to strip away OQ's personal identity, the drugs just helped speed the process. He never intended to full break the man down. He wanted him to be the same warrior that he felt showed promise by fulfilling the prophecy. What he needed to do was strip away some of the emotional attachments that OQ had. OQ has always seem himself as a killer, even when he had his no-kill rule. Thus it wouldn't be that hard for Ras to mold him. OQ already felt that he had lost everything a few weeks prior to he was already in susceptible to the conditioning techniques. Ras' conditioning of OQ started long before he came to NP to use the LP. It likely started just prior to the climb when Ras was making his first attempts at Thea. So its been a gradual process.

 

Where Ras messed up was allowing OQ to return to SC too soon in his conditioning process. Not sure if it is cockiness or Ras is starting to slip. But as many posters have mentioned, 3 weeks is not a lot of time to fully condition OQ to forget his old life. I think that if Ras had let him stay in NP longer, perhaps we would have had a fully mind conditioned Al Sa-Him. So I think that the conditioning has not fully set. I fully think whatever OQ did to that guy in the scarf was under the influence of the drugs (main reason, they told us in the plot). However, because of Ras hubris, they probably stopped using the drugs before he returned to SC, so that was not an influencing factor. But I think once OQ returned to familiar environments the conditioning began to falter. Familiar environments and triggers help to undermine the conditioning process. So once OQ was exposed to SC, Nyssa & most importantly TA, their influence began to break away at the conditioned mind of Al ShaHim. Ras sorta set Al ShaHim for failure.

 

As for the which one is better. I would like to think that Ras/LoA were able to condition OQ to a certain extent. I mean there supposed to be some grand evil organization, if you can't do a little successful conditioning - then why are we supposed to fear you? I would also like to think that Ras was too hasty in his abilities & sent OQ back to SC too soon. So by the time next week rolls around OQ has broken through most of the condtioning & is now playing the long con. From certain things he did in this episode it does look like elements of the real OQ are breaking through the surface. The not searching of FS was a big red flag that Al ShaHim is having some problems controlling his inner OQ. But like most things with the mind, its gonna take time & he may always have some reverts back to some of the conditioning while his mind fully undoes the conditioning.

[nksarmi]

Or a some point, Oliver knew it was going to come to this and started planning for it.  I am wavering in when I believe that plan started, but at the very least it was broadcasted with the "only the student can defeat the master" line.  Tatsu flat out told him to defeat Ra's, he would have to become him. 

 

I think Oliver is more or less in his right mind, but obviously the drugs are having some effect.  But generally speaking, I think he is faking it.  He kidnapped Lyla - not the baby.  Leaving the baby alone like that was dangerous, but they could have simple stolen the baby and left Lyla for dead.  What they did was pretty low level in the evil scheme of things.  There was no search of Felicity which TA was counting on.  He might have been making a move to kill Diggle but he didn't exactly act with the lightening speed of someone who meant business.  It's far more likely he was just keeping the act up until all of his henchmen were out of sight.  He look pissed that Thea shot him, but he didn't do anything about it.  Not to mention that with his reflexes, he should have been able to hear that arrow coming and dodge it.

 

Yes, he did kill the random LoA guy and I think he would have been willing to kill Nyssa if he had to because ultimately, he wants to take out Ra's to eliminate the threat to the ones he loves.  He would have sacrificed Nyssa to do that if he had to.  And frankly, his reaction to hearing he was supposed to marry her and continue a blood line with her was not a brainwashed reaction. 

 

I honestly think he is faking it - I'm just not sure when he made the plan to do so and how many people are in on it with him.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I like Nyssa, but she is not exactly innocent, so if he had to kill her to save Starling City/TA, I'd be okay with it.

[tv echo]

Or a some point, Oliver knew it was going to come to this and started planning for it.  I am wavering in when I believe that plan started, but at the very least it was broadcasted with the "only the student can defeat the master" line.  Tatsu flat out told him to defeat Ra's, he would have to become him.  

See, now you have me thinking Princess Bride, where Wesley defeats Vizzini in a battle of wits by poisoning both cups with locaine powder - to which Wesley had built up an immunity by taking it for years.  So maybe Oliver started building up an immunity to the LOA's magic herbs back when he was recovering from the sword wound with Maseo and Tatsu.  Now if only Arrow would use the line "As you wish" at some point in this series...

[Menrva]

See, now you have me thinking Princess Bride, where Wesley defeats Vizzini in a battle of wits by poisoning both cups with locaine powder - to which Wesley had built up an immunity by taking it for years.  So maybe Oliver started building up an immunity to the LOA's magic herbs back when he was recovering from the sword wound with Maseo and Tatsu.  Now if only Arrow would use the line "As you wish" at some point in this series...

You have no idea how many times I've watched Arrow and inserted lines from The Princess Bride in my head. It's a little ridiculous.

 

So I finally watched it. And, well…that was horrible. Just no on so many levels.

Things I liked:

Any time Nyssa was on screen. Likewise Thea. And Lyla. And Diggle. 

 

Things I didn't like:

Pretty much everything else. Man, that Canary Cry was the dumbest thing I've seen in a while. And I've been watching most episodes of Arrow this season. Cisco, I expected better. Laurel looked so goofy. And I just can't take her seriously in that mask. You know, the one she was always headed for. She looks like Barbie Canary. Her scenes with Nyssa were ok, I guess, but I really didn't pay much attention to them. The flashbacks were boring, despite Tatsu being awesome. 

 

Please, the end of this season cannot come fast enough.

[catrox14]

You know, upon rewatch, this episode is much better. I'm studying Stephen's performance and there is such great ambiguity in what he's doing. 

 

I still can't with Laurel's calling Diggle for being reluctant to work with the woman that kidnapped and would have murdered her own mother...but you know...blood under the bridge and all that.../rolls eyes

[Chaser]

I didn't really have a problem with the way KC played the Canary Cry, though the angles on her face make her look like Ghost Face when she screams.  Esp. since the dark lipstick makes her look pale.

 

It was the sound that did it for me. It was weak. Oliver could have just shook it off and shot her.

[paigow]

You have no idea how many times I've watched Arrow and inserted lines from The Princess Bride in my head. It's a little ridiculous.

Create a new thread...."Westley & Oliver: Separated twins"

Edited May 1, 2015 by paigow

[AyChihuahua]

"Create a new thread...."Wesley & Oliver: Separated twins""

 

Oh my God, you take that back!

[catrox14]

See I get confused and think which Wesley? Wyndham-Price (/heart eyes at dark!Wesley), Wesley Crusher?

[WaitandHope]

Ho hum.  That's how I felt.  Though I did like the Thea-Felicity, Diggle/family, Laurel-Nyssa scenes, it just wasn't enough to save the episode for me.  It's just too repetitive at this point.  I don't understand why they had to literally lose Oliver over and over and over again all season long.  And I was thinking how many secrets all these people keep from each other and am just exhausted.  I do think Oliver was faking - and that no one else is in on it.  So again he has shut the team out for their own good, but then again all these people do is keep secrets and lie to each other in an attempt to keep each other safe.  That's literally was has happened the last 5 or 6 episodes - if not the last 50 or 60 episodes. 

 

This probably sounded more bitter than I feel.  I've watched a couple of scenes over again to see if I can tell whether O is faking and the Thea/Felicity interaction  was especially welcome to see, it just seems we should have done this midway through the season and actually gotten to see the characters get some wins by episode 21...

[kismet]

You know, upon rewatch, this episode is much better. I'm studying Stephen's performance and there is such great ambiguity in what he's doing. 

 

I still can't with Laurel's calling Diggle for being reluctant to work with the woman that kidnapped and would have murdered her own mother...but you know...blood under the bridge and all that.../rolls eyes

Better because of how SA acted or better like the story made sense & had a point? Because if watching it again makes the story/plot seem more intricate than maybe I could bear to watch it again months down the road.

 

My problems with the episode was that it just seemed like a lot of plot points with few character moments outside of the Diggle Dinner. That scene was amazing for D/T/L/F/Bs, and in my head is not part of this episode. I mean SA killed the entire episode, but he was never the problem. I found his acting to be a layered & enjoyable to watch/analyze as usual. DarthOliver & SA was the only thing that made the episode worthy. Nyssa & Lyla were decent as well. Baby Sara's acting put the others to shame. The rest of the show in my mind felt poorly acted & not well written. Like I was watching a bad high school production. Honestly, the more I think about TA. The more all of their performances seemed a little over the top and not compelling. The LoA were on par with their ridiculousness. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by kismet

[Menrva]

Tonally, this episode was all over the place. I never was quite sure what sort of show it wanted to be, from one scene to the next. One minute, it's friends bonding over a shared loss (Dinner at the Diggles), the next, a thriller (flashback Outbreak, Hong Kong style), then lurching into cutesy, awkward culture clash (Nyssa and Laurel go to a diner and discuss dipping french fries into milkshakes - which, as an American, I have never heard of and ew? The again, where I grew up, it was fries with gravy, so to each their own, I guess).

I kind of got whiplash from all the back and forth.

 

Oh, and it's Westley, aka The Dread Pirate Roberts. Swoon. Oliver needs to watch that movie with Thea. Maybe that will break the brainwashing.

[paigow]

Oh, and it's Westley, aka The Dread Pirate Roberts. Swoon. Oliver needs to watch that movie with Thea. Maybe that will break the brainwashing.

Sorry...fixing

[catrox14]

Okay now that changes everything. re westley

 

Kismet, I thought Stephen's performance informed the story IMO on rewatch. It doesn't help with the whole Nyssa/Oliver weddign thing but it helps me not be like WTF ARE YOU DOING OLIVER!?

[kismet]

Its not my original theory... I found it off of tumblr. The black hole that is helping me procrastinate from packing... Anyway this poster theorizes that Oliver is watching Thea & Felicity's interaction from the window when they talk about Roy. Honestly, couldn't remember the camera angles of the scene, most of the episode is kinda a meh blur. But they definitely start in Thea's apartment & cut to a shot looking through the window twice. Upon further analysis, I would have to agree with the Tumblr poster that it is intentional. There is no other narrative reason to cut away twice from the scene to take an external angle. Generally shots like that indicate that someone is watching from outside. And it has been used on Arrow before for that purpose.

 

So I think that might give credence to the going assumption that OQ may be more in control of his mind & actions than DarthOliver. If OQ had truly made some breakthrough than it would make sense that he would go to his sister's loft to look at her before he returns to NP. Even if he is still hazy, people return to familiar environments without knowing why they returned there. Now Im not saying it is definitely OQ peering into the window. But I think someone most definitely is looking in on Thea & Felicity and the most logical person would be Oliver. It would also coincide with his inability to hold his disgust face at the thought of marrying Nyssa against their wills, if OQ is more in control that DarthOliver.

 

Other candidates from my perspective would be Maseo, Malcolm or Tatsu. Maseo would only make sense under DarthOliver's orders (so not likely). Malcolm is super creepy & has done it before, but I doubt its him this time. Tatsu would be a nice surprise/reveal in the next episode, but how would she know where to look? Then again, she is resourceful so she could easily find it. I'd say Sara, but

MG said she's done for the season.

& she is technically dead dead.

 

Original Tumblr - http://thebelovedsaralance.tumblr.com/post/117851250505/3x20-were-missing-something

YouTube of the Scene -

[millennium]

Oliver marrying Ra's al Ghul's daughter --

 

Unleashing a virus into the city's water --

 

STOP STEALING FROM BATMAN, ARROW.

 

This episode was so dumb.

 

Oliver being assimilated into the League of Assassins ...

 

Oliver turning against his former crew ...

 

Oliver turned into a weapon against his homeland ...

 

STOP STEALING FROM STAR TREK NEXT GENERATION, ARROW.

 

The difference is, Jean Luc Picard as Locutis was genuinely chilling.

 

Ugh.   How many times are they going to go back and forth between Nanda Parbat and Starling City?  It's beyond absurd now.  

 

Oliver goes from SC to NP to face Ra's and get skewered. 

 

Oliver returns from NP to SC after healing. 

 

Oliver goes back to NP to face Ra's, then escapes and returns to SC again. 

 

Oliver leaves SC and goes back to NP to save Thea.

 

Oliver departs NP and returns to SC to apprehend Nyssa.

 

Upon arriving back in NP, Ra's tells Oliver he has to return to SC to infect the population.

 

Stop the insanity! 

 

I liked the strong female presence in this episode.   But that's about all.   The fake Diggle kill in the beginning was thoroughly predictable.  

 

Is this an unpopular opinion?   I don't care about the flashback story in the least.   I'm almost at the point of fast-forwarding through it.   Tatsu is easy on the eyes, but the rest of it holds no interest for me.   

Edited May 2, 2015 by millennium

[millennium]

Do DVR viewings count the same, though, for ratings/money purposes?  Because people usually fast forward past commercials.

 

I watched on DVR this week.   Normally I watch on Hulu, which is why I'm always a week late to threads, but I had some free time so I watched this episode of Arrow and "The Trap" episode of The Flash, in that order -- and thank goodness, because The Flash was so much better that it made me almost forget "Al-Sahim."

 

But to return to your question ... When I watch the CW on DVR, whether it's Flash, Arrow or Supernatural, the fast-forwarding function is disabled.   No choice but to watch commercials.

 

I forgot to say before that the Canary Cry was ... embarrassing.   I recall Sara's device having more oomph.   Speaking of Black Canary, what brand of makeup does Laurel use that allows her to take a direct blow to the face yet still look fresh and flawless only an hour later?

[millennium]

Oliver is drugged AND brainwashed, and now thinks he's Christian Bale in Batman.

 

 

Well, the writers seem to believe they're in Batman too, so ...

[millennium]

Is it me, or did Laurels Black Canary costume look extra silly in the scene with Dark Oliver?

 

 

It wasn't you.   She looked like she showed up thinking it was a costume party while everybody else was in normal clothes.  A total "didn't get the memo" moment.

[millennium]

... Except I know DC would never let this show kill that character; so I suspect there will not be a satisfying resolution to this arc.

 

I was ardently hoping Oliver would whirl as Nyssa kneeled before him, behead Ra's and vindicate the entire episode.

[millennium]

Oh, one other thing. Do the writers expect us to believe that someone with Katie Cassidy's body eats large hamburger with fries and milk shake on regular basis?

 

To be fair, as Black Canary she would burn off a hell of a  lot of calories.

[Pothunter]

I wonder if EBR could do the crying scenes without screwing up the facial muscles. I have been catching up on 12 Monkeys, and the actress playing Cassie does very well in sad, scary and tear-inducing situations.

[steeledwithakiss]

I really liked seeing at last Thea and Felicity talk. We only waited 3 years for that. I was sad for Thea when she realized there was all this part of her brother's life she had no idea about. Not the vigilante or killing people for Argus part, but something nice and normal like falling in love.

 

Oliver is totally faking it. I mean when Angel lost his soul they actually had him say pretty horrible things to Buffy right off the bat and actually kill Giles' girlfriend. There we had Oliver trying to avoid any confrontation with the team and he didn't hurt Lyla in any way. Leaving Sara alone was pretty bad but he obviously had an LOA member checking on things from outside and that's why he knew when to call Diggle. I mean yeah it's bad and I can understand Diggle not forgiving him easily but it was not that bad.

 

It was nice to see Felicity interacting with Diggle and his family and it was also a long time coming.

 

Ra's forcing Nyssa and Oliver into a marriage was predictable but at least their faces were priceless.

 

The parts that had me rolling my eyes: I found Laurel sudden attachment for Nyssa over the top and KC acting unnatural, so stiff and melodramatic.

Edited May 2, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[TV Anonymous]

The parts that had me rolling my eyes: I found Laurel sudden attachment of Nyssa over the top and KA acting unnatural, so stiff and melodramatic.

 

I am sorry, but which of the actresses is KA? Laurel's is KC and Nyssa's is KL.

[steeledwithakiss]

I am sorry, but which of the actresses is KA? Laurel's is KC and Nyssa's is KL.

Yeah sorry I meant KC.

[chaos is welcome]

Except for the transwarp conduit between Nanda Parbat & Starling City....

My son decided during this ep they must have a portal a la minecraft.

There was some good in this ep and some really bad.

Good was team arrow scenes, lyla being a badass, thea/Felicity interactions.

I actually liked Felicity going to the lair and losing it. We haven't REALLY seen her lose it, and she totally deserves to. I just wish she hadn't been crying all season. It doesn't effect my view of her, but I do think many fanboys have grown weary of the character.

Besides the lol ridiculousness of the canary cry, I am so confused by ras/loa. Malcolm violated league code by leveling the glades; ras didn't say goodbye to his wife/kids to save their lives, but then destroyed his whole village. Does not compute. I understand ras of comics is a master manipulator, but they did not translate him well on screen.

I can not, for the life of me, get over this whole forcing a canonically gay character to marry a man though. Just no.

I did see little things in SA's eyes that made me think Oliver is faking. Not sure though, but leaning that way.

I am here for thea and roy next week. I may just ignore everything else.

Oh, and this episode failed the sleep test...put hubs right to sleep. Lolololol. Shocking! :-p

Edited May 4, 2015 by chaos is welcome