S04.E19: Sympathy For The De Vil

[YaddaYadda]

I feel so bad for the Rumbelle fans. Poor Belle. Just when she was growing a spine, someone uses her as a puppet again.

 

So I laughed when she said that Will was a better kisser.  I snorted then laughed.

[Chaos Theory]

Yeah, this won't make Emma any darker than killing Cora made Snow. Unless Emma lets herself feel dark about it like Snow did over Cora.

But it's a good first step and with her parents acting all hinky and unhelpful it will make it a whole lot easier for Rumple to put other heart of darkness tests in front of her.

[mjgchick]

So I laughed when she said that Will was a better kisser.  I snorted then laughed.

I did as well I'm awful but Rumple deserves to get his heart trampled on. He's just not fun to watch.

[Mathius]

Did the Author say he manipulated Snowing into making Emma the goodest of goods because he was afraid of Cruella? But he wrote in that Cruella couldn't kill anyone. So, I'm confused.

No, he didn't say anything like that. Manipulating Snowing had nothing to do with Cruella.

[Donny Ketchum]

I am wondering how Cruella got to the Enchanted Forest.  And how she met Ursula and Maleficent.

Maybe we'll find out in a Maleficent flashback.

[Aliasscape]

"Henry was in no real danger" "Cruella was defenseless". It only said Cruella couldn't kill. She actually still should have been able to maim, torture, cause permanent brain damage. And well she's the one who decided to stand that close to the edge of the cliff and threaten a child in front of his mother.

 

Savior or no, just about any mother would have shoved Cruella away from her child and if Cruella fell off a cliff then so be it.

 

Besides, legally you can kill in self-defense or defense of others as long as you can prove you genuinely BELIEVED that you or someone else was in danger. They point a gun at your kid and it had no bullets? Too bad, if they pointed the gun, then there's basically every right for the mother to come after you with everything they have.

 

It's not evil to protect your child. Whatever show.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Aliasscape

[AmandaPanda]

 

• Sad that we won't get more Cruella; Mal has been pretty lame this season 

 

 

This is my biggest problem with this half of the season. They need to just let Kristin Bauer van Straten be a deliciously evil, scenery-chewing villain. She is amazing at it and it is so much more fun to watch than the plot they've given her. I love that they just let Cruella be evil. That's what I wish they'd done for all of these villains. We already have so many villains with sympathetic backstories. I just want someone who is evil just because they're evil. 

[Worsel]

This is my biggest problem with this half of the season. They need to just let Kristin Bauer van Straten be a deliciously evil, scenery-chewing villain. She is amazing at it and it is so much more fun to watch than the plot they've given her. I love that they just let Cruella be evil. That's what I wish they'd done for all of these villains. We already have so many villains with sympathetic backstories. I just want someone who is evil just because they're evil. 

 

I think the show writers think that evil just because they're evil is too simple and uninteresting, and want to go with "real life" where there is a mixture of good and evil, and explore ways to justify evil things and create doubt in goodness.  Like making Regina sympathetic despite her prior evil acts, and making Emma "evil" for protecting Henry from what appeared to be imminent death.

[Mathius]

I must say the episode's title makes more sense now. Not only does it refer to Isaac's terrible misjudgment (and the audience's), but the actual song it's taken from is also a subversion of its name: it's all about Lucifer boasting about his evil deeds without remorse and then concluding by saying the listener ought to have sympathy for him...or else.

I think the show writers think that evil just because they're evil is too simple and uninteresting, and want to go with "real life" where there is a mixture of good and evil, and explore ways to justify evil things and create doubt in goodness.

On paper, this I agree with completely, since most evil people in real life aren't "evil just because they are" and it would be boring to have too many of those kinds of villains (that said, there are sociopaths just born rotten in real life too, and I'm glad Cruella represents those kinds of people). The problem is in execution, which they usually fail miserably at, especially with Regina and her family, and sometimes with Rumple as well. Edited April 20, 2015 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

Also, the twist that she can't kill. All those past scenes where she pulls a gun on Rumple or on Emma yet never shoots it, all those many times she's TALKED about killing ("I say we slit her throat") and generally acted psycho and bloodthirsty yet oddly never putting her money where her mouth is. I'm both elated that the writers did so well here and infuriated, because it makes it all the worse that they fail to do it on so many other occasions.

 

Yeah--this was legitimately a good twist. I guess young Cruella stealing things was an early hint this episode that she was the bad guy. See--the writers can build up to something when they bother.

 

Are we absolutely sure that Regina did that without Belle's permission?  Because while I'm probably the last person here to defend Regina, it seemed possible that Belle was in on Regina's scheme. 

 

 

Even if Belle had agreed to it, she would not have been okay with saying Will was a better kisser, etc.. 

 

No, he didn't say anything like that. Manipulating Snowing had nothing to do with Cruella.

 

I guess I need to rewatch then. I had a hard time hearing a lot of the dialogue today.

[Whodunnit]

How is this chance medley (killing during a fight) any different from skewering a few black knights? Emma had every reason to believe that the threat was real, so she protected her son in that moment in the only way she could think of. Emma seems like a practical person and would understand that, so why would this make her go dark?

In the same situation, Regina would have shrug it off and Snow would throw her a party; it's the stupid double standard dark spot all over again.UGH.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Whodunnit

[Worsel]

 

Even if Belle had agreed to it, she would not have been okay with saying Will was a better kisser, etc.. 

 

Yes, and Regina would definitely get an earful of rebuke from Belle if she ever finds out - Regina made sure she would forget everything later on.

[bmoore4026]

So there's a 1920s realm?  I'm guessing this is where all of Agatha Christie's works take place in, along with Downton Abbey and Billy Bunter and Sexton Blake and (on the other side of The Pond) The Great Gatsby.

 

Cruella was always evil?  Not surprising.  But how did she get that Dalmatian coat done so fast? 

 

And, is the Storyteller a bad guy or not?  Or is he True Neutral?

 

Heroes don't kill?  Well, Superman had to kill once.  Wonder Woman also.  Wolverine kills often.  Hell, even a sparkly rainbow hero like Sailor Moon offs her enemies, at least in the original manga.  And, guess what?  Snow White has killed.  As has Hook.  Charming, no doubt, killed more than a few of Regina's guards.  But, you also know what? They're still good.  They didn't let darkness overtake them.  Military people, who we revere as heroes, have to kill, but many are still good people.  Traumatized, yes, but a lot don't become Hannibal Lecter.  So, I'm calling a hard bullshit on this "heroes don't kill" plotpoint.

[MaiLuna]

I really liked this episode (even with the lack of Hook and CS, which is huge for me :P)

 

I loved the 1920s world and the whole Cruella flashback. I liked the beginning which was more a romantic Cinderella story and then I loved the twist, she was a scary evil lunatic.

 

I don't think Emma went dark to kill Cruella (which she didn't intend to do, she just pushed her away), I think they were trying to prevent her from killing in the first place because that may be the gateway to going dark. I don't think we're meant to see killing Cruella in self defense as evil/dark, but that when Emma first killed someone, she enjoyed it or something like that. It wasn't the killing per se, it was what the murder triggered.

 

I liked Regina and Hook making valuable points about forgiving Snowing, I hope Emma hasn't forgiven them because a) a little bit because of what she said, she thought they were good so she's more disappointed; and I hope mostly because b) it's related to her insecurities and how her parents view her.

Poor Belle, she's always just a pawn. Regina better make it up to her for this. Or she just deserves a happy ending anyway? She's basically doing what Cruella was doing this episode. Or what Emma did to save Henry from her. Why does she always get special rules?

Edited April 20, 2015 by MaiLuna

[Whodunnit]

Ditto. I could buy them saying that heroes don't murder, but plenty of heroes have to kill for one reason or another.

[Stuffy]

I fast forwarded through most of Cruella's story because I just can't bring myself to care about secondary characters anymore. There's just so many. I'm really bored this second half.

[Mathius]

Another brilliant aspect of the Cruella twist: the "Poor Unfortunate Souls" factor. We had a QoD wanting her happy ending, saying someone took it from her and made her this way, saw a flashback unfolding about her and her overbearing parent, saw her get close to the guy she claims ruined her in the present....I think we all assumed the writers were being lazy like usual and rehashing Ursula's backstory, with Cruella as Ursula, her mom as Poseidon, and Isaac as Hook. It was yet another reason the reveal blindsided us. Gah, this is "The Miller's Daughter" all over again: a wonderful episode that will be doomed to terrible consequences due to A&E not grasping the concept of basic human morality.

I fast forwarded through most of Cruella's story because I just can't bring myself to care about secondary characters anymore. There's just so many. I'm really bored this second half.

In this case, you're REALLY missing out.

[tennisgurl]

 

I fast forwarded through most of Cruella's story because I just can't bring myself to care about secondary characters anymore. There's just so many.

I understand this impulse, but her stuff is the most interesting part of the episode! Its kind of like its own little mini Twilight Zone episode, in the middle of a clusterfuck of disturbed morality! 

[ParadoxLost]

Gah, this is "The Miller's Daughter" all over again: a wonderful episode that will be doomed to terrible consequences due to A&E not grasping the concept of basic human morality.

 

I'm not so sure about this.  I think they might just be chickenshit.  It would have been really easy to make the premise that Emma was wrong to kill Cruella to save Henry at least debatable.  All they needed to do was have Snowing arrive and explain, while Cruella has a gun to Henry's head, that Cruella can't kill and Emma kill Cruella anyways because she no longer trusts her parents enough to risk Henry on their word.  Honestly, that is the scene that this whole arc should have built to but it didn't.  It didn't because they want to pretend that they are edgy and risk takers and that they are telling a complex story.  They have to know that nothing about Emma killing Cruella was anything but self defense.

Edited April 20, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[KingOfHearts]

Regina was actually tolerable in this episode. I can dig her friendship with Emma, as long as we don't get the crappy boohoos or whitewashing. ("honest villains") She and Emma just make a really good pair to get things done with. I was also down with she and Hook attempting to give advice. It was just friendly support, which is so rare on this show these days.

 

I was pretty much okay with Storybrooke until the ending. That cliffhanger was the dumbest one I've seen in a long time on Once. I really don't buy Emma staring callously into the distance immediately after her son nearly died.

Edited April 20, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

I understand this impulse, but her stuff is the most interesting part of the episode! Its kind of like its own little mini Twilight Zone episode, in the middle of a clusterfuck of disturbed morality!

After Isaac's badass one-liner to Cruella, I could totally picture Rod Serling's end voiceover playing as he takes his pen back and leaves her seething in rage at having the only thing she loves taken away from her. :P

I'm not so sure about this.  I think they might just be chickenshit.  It would have been really easy to make the premise that Emma was wrong to kill Cruella to save Henry at least debatable.  All they needed to do was have Snowing arrive and explain, while Cruella has a gun to Henry's head, that Cruella can't kill and Emma kill Cruella anyways because she no longer trusts her parents enough to risk Henry on their word.  Honestly, that is the scene that this whole arc should have built to but it didn't.  It didn't because they want to pretend that they are edgy and risk takers and that they are telling a complex story.  They have to know that nothing about Emma killing Cruella was anything but self defense.

That or have the threat of Emma going dark be because she feels horrified at being used like a perfect tool by Gold, not because she killed Cruella. I can easily see her believing that maybe she's fated for evil after all if it was so easy for Gold to get her to kill, NOT because of the act of killing Cruella in of itself.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Mathius

[Mari]

And, in the Emma's-going-evil for killing Cruella fury, I forgot to point out one little thing.  They managed to keep  Cruella from getting a "poor, Cruella" backstory, but they did manage to squeak one in for the author.  He was in looove with Cruella, and she used him.

 

Now, he's just after the villains. . .

[Mathius]

Yeah, but Isaac wasn't evil in the past episodes, his motives and personality were vague since he was being used as a plot device, so a sob story for him doesn't really bother me.

Plus, Patrick Fischler really sold it. I genuinely did feel bad for him.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Can someone explain what Cruella was asking for from Isaac in the present? Was it just the ability to kill she wanted?

[ParadoxLost]

I was pretty much okay with Storybrooke until the ending. That cliffhanger was the dumbest one I've seen in a long time on Once. I really don't buy Emma staring callously into the distance immediately after her son nearly died.

 

They had her doing the thousand yard stare the entire episode.  The table scene with Regina, Hook, and her parents was just completely out of character.  She was completely shutdown and not reacting to Henry's kidnapping in a normal way for Emma.  What were they going for?  Shock? Self preservation?  Emma's reaction to all of this was baffling to me.  This is why its a problem that they are doing all the telling offscreen or interrupting important conversations.

 

I'm guessing next week they'll do a 'Emma was wrong to kill Cruella because in her heart she didn't want to try to find another way.'

[thuganomics85]

Really enjoyed the episode, until those last few minutes.  So, basically Rumpel's big plan of turning Emma to the dark side, is forcing her to have to kill Cruella.  A "defenseless" Cruella, since she can no longer kill people, thanks to Issac/The Author.  Yeah, I've got one small problem there, show.  Emma doesn't know that.  So, all she saw was some crazy lady with a gun to her son's head.  What was she suppose to do?  How does defending your son make heart grow darker?  And, even looking past that, does Issac's words prevent her form harming or even crippling Henry?  Really, I just need to give up on figuring this show's morality and how it darkens hearts and whatnot.

 

Besides that, I loved the fake-out with Cruella's back-story.  Thought it was going to be another freaking sob-story, but nope!  Cruella was a freaking killer and psychopath at a wee young age!  Love it!  That now bring the list to two: Cruella and Pan.  Maybe these guys are finally learning.  Too bad she's dead now, but with this show, anything can happen (I mean, look at last week and Zelena's return.)

 

Emma is all over the place now.  I cracked up when she told Regina that she really shouldn't take the advice about forgiveness from someone who has held a grudge over something a freaking ten year-old did.  But, then she's like "At least you owned it, so that makes you better then Charming and Snow!"  Oh, Emma.  I get you are pissed, but owning it doesn't hide the fact that Regina's bodycount still tops Charming/Snow's, by a mile.

 

Hate to agree with Regina, but Rumpel really has become pathetic over Belle now.  I actually loved him getting played, and Regina rubbing it by controlling Belle.  But, I guess this is in character for Rumpel.

 

Not enough Hook in these past few episodes.  Been missing his humor and snark.

Edited April 20, 2015 by thuganomics85

[Mari]

Can someone explain what Cruella was asking for from Isaac in the present? Was it just the ability to kill she wanted?

I think so.  She told him she "wanted it back" and the only thing we saw him take from her was the ability to kill.

 

I checked the Once hashtags on twitter.  There were actually a couple sad tweets that Cruella wasn't getting her happy ending.   It was . . . unsettling.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Mari

[ParadoxLost]

So, basically Rumpel's big plan of turning Emma to the dark side, is forcing her to have to kill Cruella.  A "defenseless" Cruella, since she can no longer kill people, thanks to Issac/The Author.

 

I thought that whole thing was confusing.  I thought Author gave Rumpel the sheet of paper that said Cruella couldn't kill after he knew Cruella had kidnapped Henry.  So this couldn't have been his grand plan to make Emma dark.  I still think that Author was talking about some other catalyst to making Emma dark later in the story and Snowing, being morons, misinterpreted what he said and will end up hastening the whole thing by guilt tripping Emma over Cruella.

Edited April 20, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[sharky]

I'm so glad I have you guys. You've talked me into liking Cruella's back story more than I did. Yeah! Then you confirmed what I thought: Emma isn't dark because she killed Cruella thinking she was saving her son's life. And then you all agreed that the writers wasted a great chance with Cruella. Imagine if she was the only villain this half season and had more killing references before this. And then we wondered what her problem was. Stop threatening and just do it! And then this back story. Ugh. So much potential and it just fell off a cliff. Literally.

[TheGreenKnight]

I checked the Once hashtags on twitter.  There were actually a couple sad tweets that Cruella wasn't getting her happy ending.   It was . . . unsettling.

Well, I'm a little sad about that, too, since I hate the author.

 

But I loved this episode. Loved having a villain who wasn't "made" evil, loved Cruella controlling Maleficent, and loved Emma calling Regina on her snarky comment. Too bad Cruella is gone. She ended up one of the best villains this show's had.

 

Even though Emma killing Cruella possibly sending her "dark" verges on another Cora moment, I suppose I can go along more with this since Cruella wasn't able to cause harm whereas Cora was a real threat.

[Shanna Marie]

Only on this show would killing a sociopath who was holding a gun to your son's head be considered a "dark" deed.

 

I did like the twist that "poor little Cruella" was actually a murdering sociopath. Otherwise, I was kind of ho-hum about the episode. It didn't distract me from my knitting.

[SilverShadow]

I think offing Cruella on its own is not meant to mean Emma's heart has completely darkened, just that it was the first step down a slippery slope/the road of good intentions, or however you want to put it. Rumple wanted to save his son from growing up without a father and his actions snowballed into him ending up with a charcoal for a heart. Regina initially wanted to learn magic to escape her marriage and her mother, but went back to Leopold and kept practicing, losing bits of herself along the way. I don't think it was an accident she responded to Snow's justification with essentially "I would never ever hurt a helpless person no matter what."

 

Emma didn't know Cruella was helpless, and she was trying to save Henry, but that's still not, "no matter what."

[TwistedandBored]

Cruella backstory was awesome. I seriously loved the fact that she was bad just for the sake of being bad. She enjoyed being a psycho. 

 

However, Emma's journey to the Darkside was lame. How is a mother protecting her child become such an evil person? I hope the rest of Darth Emma's story doesn't suck!

[FabulousTater]

I suppose I can go along more with this since Cruella wasn't able to cause harm whereas Cora was a real threat.

I don't think it was an accident she responded to Snow's justification with essentially "I would never ever hurt a helpless person no matter what."

 

Emma didn't know Cruella was helpless, and she was trying to save Henry, but that's still not, "no matter what."

I think this misses the point of what the author wrote. Cruella wasn't helpless. The Author prevented Cruella from KILLING. But she could still do plenty of harm. There's plenty of room to hurt, maim, and torture without actually "taking a life".

 

So really, Emma still hasn't killed a "helpless person" no matter how much the show wants to pretend that Emma's done something evil here. I'm lending my voice to the chorus here that's calling BUUUUULLSHIIIIIIIT to this plot.

 

ETA: And because it needs to be repeated - Emma didn't know Cruella was prevented from killing by the author. All Emma knew was that she was dealing with a villain with magic that was holding a gun to her sons head and more than capable of killing or hurting him (which was what Cruella was threatening to do). Emma's actions were justified.

Edited April 20, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

A person holding a gun to a child's head doesn't count as "helpless," whether or not she's physically capable of pulling the trigger unless the person dealing with her knows for absolute certain that she's not physically capable of pulling the trigger -- not just with past evidence but is also certain that this hasn't been changed or revoked within the last 30 seconds. For all Snow and David knew, the Author had been forced to tear up or burn that piece of paper while they were running over, and if Emma had acted as though she believed Cruella couldn't kill, that would be the moment her ability to kill was restored.

 

I'm almost done with this show. The characters I like seem to have been either changed or marginalized, so the returns are diminishing. I'm so glad I went to a concert tonight instead (a world premiere of a new John Rutter piece, with Rutter himself conducting -- wouldn't have missed it).

[Zuleikha]

There were actually a couple sad tweets that Cruella wasn't getting her happy ending.   It was . . . unsettling.

I must believe that those people wanted Cruella to have a different story with a happy ending--not that they wanted psychopathic Cruella to have her happy ending of getting to kill people as she wished.

 

4B has too much freaking story in it. Cruella was just a snappy one-liner character and now we finally get to know her as a potentially interesting and truly scary villain and she's dead. I did love the backstory twist as I, too, did not see it coming. But I really wish the writers could have picked ONE throughline for 4B and developed it and saved the rest for later. Done right, Cruella could have been an interesting 1/2 arc season villain in her own merits. Dang, Smurfit killed that reveal about swimming in darkness. So easy to go too camp with that, but she hit the balance perfectly.

 

I was spoiled for Regina stealing Belle's heart and was dreading all the Regina hate that would come from it, but I ended up loving the scene. I hope Belle was not in on it (and don't think she was) because what's the point of loving a reforming villain if there's no unpredictable, evil edge left? Regina will always have that darkness in her because you can't erase being a mass murderess, and I like the way the show dealt with it. I don't think Regina would have killed Belle. But hurt her to make Rumple suffer? Yes, Regina will do that. Rumple gets to be the perfect mastermind way too often, so it's really nice to see any moment where someone gets one up on him. And given their history, it was particularly nice to see it from Regina.

 

The Emma darkness thing at the end was stupid because Regina should have apparated to Emma's side as soon as she found the shell and Emma has multiple options available to her other than pushing Cruella over a cliff. I know we don't know exactly what Emma's learned how to do yet (which is irritating!) but surely she could have simply pushed the gun away, rather than Cruella. Also, we saw that bridge thing in one of the episodes where Regina taught Emma magic where Emma TK'd the bridge pieces together and held them floating, so why couldn't she have just floated Cruella away? 

 

But the whole plot is also stupid because Emma's always been more of a shades-of-light-gray character than a goody-goody type. I don't buy her angsting too much over killing someone to save Henry, especially with Regina to give her pep talks. 

[Leia1979]

Well, I wasn't expecting Cruella to be a full-fledged sociopath. Color me surprised. But dammit, she was my favorite villain in 4B.

 

Was it a deliberate choice that it looks like Jen Morrison was given Rose McIver's iZombie makeup for tonight's episode? Actually zombie Rose looks more alive than Jen did tonight. She looked ill, and I couldn't think of anything that had happened plot-wise to warrant it. And while I'm in the shallow end of the pool, I didn't like Hook's hair tonight.

 

This "OMG, Emma's gonna go dark" stuff is just so stupid. I don't think a jury would convict a woman for killing the person holding her child at gunpoint. It doesn't matter if Cruella couldn't actually pull the trigger--she could still harm Henry.

[Dianthus]

Regina may have been an "honest" villain, but it's not like she really owns her villainy the way Hook does. I didn't like that they lumped the two of them together like that. Calling bull (also, too, shit) on Emma going dark for killing Cruella, given that she was hardly an innocent.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regina may have been an "honest" villain, but it's not like she really owns her villainy the way Hook does. I didn't like that they lumped the two of them together like that. Calling bull (also, too, shit) on Emma going dark for killing Cruella, given that she was hardly an innocent.

That was stupid. While at times Regina has recognized herself as a monster, comparing her with Hook was not a fair judgement. I just interpreted it as Emma not thinking clearly through all the anger and stress. At the time she was chasing after Henry, so it's not like she was processing moral appraisal. The assessment that it was more painful coming from the "heroes" was truthful, though. When you go around telling people you're goody goody and pure, then proceed to justify hurting another person, you've got a dilemma.

 

That's what bothered me - that Snowing feels like they did nothing wrong. After all the guilt we saw in flashbacks over what they did, now it's totally okay because it was to insure Emma's goodness. We've never even seen them apologize about the lying. In this light, they appear very pious and self-righteous. I'm not sure if I blame the characters or just the retconned writing. Eventually, after a period of time, actions become part of the characters' DNA. Whether this is just a fluke or a foreshadowing of what their attitudes are to become is yet to be determined.

Edited April 20, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Blue Plastic]

This episode really blew the "evil isn't born, it's made" claim out of the water. Don't think they realized it though.

It pretty much did.  I could give them that it was a little bit "made" because even though Cruella was apparently a born sociopath, I'm sure her mother's treatment of her from such a young age didn't help matters.  Of course if we're supposed to be dealing with some nebulous 1920s-ish fictional, magic-addled time period in which Cruella comes from a prominent family that doesn't want to call attention to itself, decent mental health treatment wouldn't be available, and Cruella would probably be locked up if the truth came out, then her mother probably didn't have a lot of options.

 

I don't get it.  How did killing Cruella make Emma evil?

It shouldn't, since Emma didn't know that Cruella couldn't actually hurt Henry and Cruella was waving a gun at him.  But knowing this show, that means nothing.  I'm wondering if it will be significant that Emma doesn't have any forgiveness in her heart for her parents.  Just like Regina harbored a grudge against a 10-year-old and basically turned evil because of it.  Never mind that Emma is angry about an actual understandable grievance whereas Regina was just crazy.  I do like the makeup job they are doing on Emma to make her look more stressed/edgy/teetering on the brink.

 

I did find this episode way more entertaining and engaging than last week's.

[Camera One]

This episode had some true twists like Cruella being the one to kill her father, but I didn't find that development all that satisfying.  Cruella has really only been snarky.  There are so many ways of hurting people without killing them, and she could have done any of those to The Author.  You'd think with that murderous background, she would be doing more to Henry than playing Angry Birds.  I also don't see her being in that situation in NYC if she was so dark and conniving.  She would have been in that mansion herself while her husband was arrested.  This episode kinda ruined the friendship Ursula and Cruella had for me.

 

I find Cruella way more entertaining to watch than Zelena, so I do think it's a shame they've written her out already.  I know most people loved the twist, but I would have preferred seeing her stab Rumple in the back and join the other team.

 

I liked the early 1900's setting of the flashback, but I found myself a little bored since I wasn't really too invested in Normal Cruella and The Author, the latter especially.  The two of them had zero chemistry.  She seriously couldn't find a way to poison her mother or arrange an accident after so many years, yet she did two stepfathers in?  Yeah, right.  

 

The "reveal" that Cruella and Ursula stayed young because of the Dragon Egg was certainly underwhelming.

 

How many times was "turning the Saviour dark" repeated in this episode?  Why were Snow and Charming shocked to hear that at the end?  Didn't they know that was Rumple's plan already?

 

Rumple's black black heart was just eye-roll worthy.  Why isn't he able to use magical means to keep it at bay now that he was back in Storybrooke?  Suddenly it's a problem?  Was it because he was out in the real world for 6 weeks?  

 

The Belle actress gets the worst lines... "I worry I threw out the chipped teacup too soon".  I don't think anyone can deliver that convincingly.  Granted, she was saying what Regina was getting her to say, but still, so cheesy.

 

I thought the Sorcerer was going to hire another Author.  Why is this Rogue one still in play?

 

So now Rumple has all-seeing crystal ball.  *Groan*

 

I did like how Cruella got her appearance from ink being spilled on her head.  

 

I don't need to repeat how dumb it is that Emma might go all dark because she pushed a mass murderer off a cliff.  Though as Zuleikha said, there were other things she could have been able to do with magic, like taking the gun and constructing a bridge if Henry fell off.  As usual, the situation is as contrived as ever.  Real subtle touch making Emma pale and sweaty as she became a "psycho".

Edited April 20, 2015 by Camera One

[MaiLuna]

I don't think killing Cruella in that situation (which could've ended in an alive Cruella) made Emma evil or dark. But it was the first step. Like Snowing said, Emma didn't know Cruella was incapable of killing Henry, Rumpel just wanted to get Emma in a desperate situation where she pretty much had to kill her. So that would give her the first taste of murder/darnkess/evilness. The killing didn't have an impact on me since it was in defense of Henry, it was the aftershot of Emma looking at Cruella's dead body. She didn't seem shocked or regretful, she seemed without any remorse and like she enjoyed it. THAT's what made Emma "dark" in that scene, not the pushing of Cruella; it was the fact that she didn't regret it or felt bad or surprised that she did that (that we've seen so far). I'm pretty sure that the last thing Cruella said didn't help either. She said "You're a hero, and heroes don't kill". Emma's expression changed when she said that and she immediately pushed her. That's probably because she has just learned that her prime examples of heroes, her parents, aren't that good after all. And that they were afraid of her not being a hero, that they made something evil to make sure she was a hero, that it seems they only love her if she is a hero. Bad choice of words, Cruella. I think that if she hadn't said that, Emma probably wouldn't have killed her. She's over the "hero" title. She was "forced" to be a hero by people called heroes that she doesn't see as heroes at the moment, and she has also always been tired of being the savior, another job that was forced upon her with great expectations. I feel like she doesn't want to be considered as a hero right now, if being a hero is being like her parents.

Edited April 20, 2015 by MaiLuna

[Camera One]

I guess that's why A&E are going on about how what Emma did is very very very concerning in the interviews.  Basically, this is a live enactment of the hit song, "I Killed a Witch (And I Liked It").  Maybe to A&E, they're going for a parallel... Cruella was not crying after killing her father, and we see Emma killing someone and she isn't crying either.  True Monsters... tonight on A&E.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I actually did not want to watch this episode because I feared it would torpedo everything this show has ever espoused and it pretty much did. The author can write people to be and have and do anything he wants, so no free will. Cruella was born an evil sociopath, so there goes your evil is made, not born mantra. The Saviour mantle passes on to someone else if Emma dies, so that's nothing special. Emma is going dark for killing in self-defense, but killing Walsh and standing at the town line ready to put Pan down like a dog are totally fine. Not to mention that Emma is a thief and doesn't seem all that broken up about any of her past misdeeds. Yep, I'm pretty much done with this show.

Edited April 20, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[FabulousTater]

I don't think killing Cruella in that situation (which could've ended in an alive Cruella) made Emma evil or dark. But it was the first step. Like Snowing said, Emma didn't know Cruella was incapable of killing Henry, Rumpel just wanted to get Emma in a desperate situation where she pretty much had to kill her. So that would give her the first taste of murder/darnkess/evilness.

But heroes do kill. That they suddenly don't is another BS line that the writers of the show have pulled out of their butts. Charming and Snow killed people when they reclaimed their thrones. What do you think they used to defeat the other armies? Nerf swords and foam arrows? Silly string??? We've seen Charming put a sword through several of Regina's and George's knights. So heroes have killed on this show and yet that doesn't make them evil and nobody was ever worried that it would. It was a matter of life and death and everyone moved on.

 

And Emma not beating herself up over killing a murdering sociopath like Cruella whose happy ending was being able to kill again? I don't think makes her evil at all. Not by any stretch. Emma's not grinning with glee and all crazy eyes like Regina does every time she murders someone. And in that short two second freeze frame at the end that's locked on Emma's face, she showed no joy. I think it's a stretch right now to say Emma got a taste of evil and liked it. That's not what I saw. And just because she doesn't seem to be wracked with guilt either, that doesn't make her evil. Hell, if someone were to remove that sort of evil person from this world I think we would all at least be breathing a sigh of relief and not drowning ourselves with guilt that there's one less homicidal sociopath in the world.

 

ETA

 

Though as Zuleikha said, there were other things she could have been able to do with magic, like taking the gun and constructing a bridge if Henry fell off.

Yes, because if someone is holding a gun to your child's head and threatening to murder them before your very eyes the first thing you think is "How can I nicely stop this charming murderer because I wouldn't want to hurt them. Excuse me, psycho killer? Could you give me a few minutes to consider my options for best dealing with you but without actually harming you. K Thx."

Bull + Shit.

Edited April 20, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Daisy]

Okie dokes. 

 

I have to say, I don't think anyone would regret killing someone who was threatening to kill your kid. I get there needs to be a spark to make Emma evil [don't care], but that makes no sense to me. it's kill or watch someone be killed.  Now, I don't know what other circumstance you can whip up to make it make sense, but then quite frankly, you could just have a natural progression of Emma getting addicted to the magic (possible, see Willow), Emma, wanting to control people now that she knows she's more powerful. (stemming from being addicted to the magic), Emma, just realising she's tired of being used as a device to save people and wanting to live her own life and be free and that leads her down a road of evil. (maybe I'm watching too much Buffy?)

 

But seriously. get over it. get. over. it.  Your parents lied to you. You are 29+ years old. get over it. Your parents did a horrible thing. Guess what they are human (and just as stupid). Get over it. They aren't perfect. get over it. (But I don't really like Emma, so maybe I just want to get over her). 

 

Rumple is dying, who cares, Mal came in basically to threaten, turn into a dragon, and nap a nap, what a waste, not enough Hook, whatever... Heart-Controlled Belle was funny.

 

Questions I would be asking:

question one was asked already..

 

2: if he was stripped from his holy duty where. is. his. replacement? I would assume that would be the author you need. Not Emma being all dark. think about it. the story was told that Emma saves the day. technically, anything that needs to be added or changed isn't Emma. It's finding the person who can continue writing the story as it continues. Unless they are saying the saviour IS the author - to which I say. screw. that. crap. 

3: Why is Emma so mad. really. This has to be more than her parents being (you know, human). or whatever. there has to be something more. what is bothering her? Does she need a Snickers™? 

4: So far. we have seen the following. (and I swear I am missing some)

Silver/Ruby Slippers. 
Magic Hat

Magic Bean Portal

Mermaid Accessible Portal

Magic Doors

Time Travelling Spell
Pegasus Sail
Shadow to get you to England (real time) 
Portal somehow to get to 1920 fake England 

 

What the bloody hell was Rumple doing for 100+ years to make the dark curse, when there were all those options made to him?  How the hell  doesn't someone ask this? there are all of these people whose lives got ruined for a curse, where basically, all Rumple had to do was just... find a different option! 

 

 

What i really liked. 
Cruella. Her normal self was gorgeous. And I will totally, admit, I was going with the whole. "oh she accidentally became evil, because Mommy was mean, and. boohoo freaking hoo, and her happy ending would be something that would make her whatever." the the Author came around and Cruella saying "what you did to me." and you are expecting something totally evil.... 

 

and it was like. whoa. Cruella is just nuts. Her happy ending is to be able to  kill people. that is freaking dark.(and awesome) I didn't get why/how the Ink made her "ugly"  that was weird. I also find it interesting that the Author decided to take away her ability to kill... but not her magic power, which should be able to allow her to command someone to hurt them to point of death, no?  hm. And I am assuming after realising writing someone and controlling the story caused this big boohoo, was bad and all, but not bad enough to continue to do so. to the point where he got trapped. 

 

the Author. As most people on this show. Is dumb . 

 

So Queens of Darkness is down to One (curious if we're going to get her backstory, ie: who is Lily's dad etc)

Edited April 20, 2015 by Daisy

[MaiLuna]

But hereos do kill. That's another BS line that the writers of the show have pulled out of their butts. Charming and Snow killed people. When they reclaimed their thrones, what do you think they used to defeat the other armies? Nerf swords and foam arrows? Silly string??? We've seen Charming put a sword through several of Regina's and George's knights. So heroes have killed on this show and yet that doesn't make them evil and nobody was ever worried that it would. It was a matter of life and death and everyone moved on.

 

And Emma not beating herself up over killing a murdering sociopath like Cruella whose happy ending was being able to kill again? I don't think makes her evil at all. Not by any stretch. Emma's not grinning with glee like Regina does every time she's murdered someone. And in that short two second freeze frame at the end that's locked on Emma's face, she showed no joy. I think it's a stretch right now to say Emma got a taste of evil and liked it. That's not what I saw. And just because she doesn't seem to be wracked with guilt either, that doesn't make her evil. Hell, if someone were to remove that sort of evil person from this world I think we would all at least be breathing a sigh of relief and not drowning ourselves with guilt that there's one less homicidal sociopath in the world.

 

Of course heroes kill. I think that's why Emma killed her midsentence when Cruella said exactly that. She was calling bullshit on that.

Nobody was worried about any other heroes because they didn't have the "greatest potential for darkness". I do think that title is totally totally stupid, but it's what the show is trying to say so that's why we're supposed to worry about Emma. This could be her entryway to darkness. It's dumb, but what's what the "risk" is supposed to be in this half season.

Yeah, we only saw two seconds, but there could've been some shock on her face? She also may have still been super mad to even comprehend that she had just killed someone. And maybe next episode we see her reacting. I was just trying to understand the scene. The fact that they ended on that quite creepy expression doesn't talk very well about the future of Emma. I'm not liking the storyline or saying Emma shouldn't have killed Cruella or that she should be crippling with guilt or have a dark spot in her heart, but I think Emma should have (she may in the future) some kind of unpleasant reaction from killing someone.

I didn't say she liked it, I'm just talking of what we saw tonight and how it may have come across as Emma having gone a bit dark. It all might change in the next episode though! I don't think Emma is evil at all for doing this or for not regretting killing in defense of her child, but I think the writers meant for this moment to be the "beginning" of her "downfall", and I can see how it could be considered that way. It's not 100% proof that Emma is evil or dark, but it could be an opportunity to explore her "darkness" depending on how she keeps acting after this.

Edited April 20, 2015 by MaiLuna

[Camera One]

Next episode:

 

EMMA, SNOW, CHARMING, REGINA and HOOK stand in shock.

DR. REGINA: Emma, I need to check your heart to see if you have a dark spot in it.  This might sting a bit.

 

10 episodes later...

 

CRUELLA: Hellooooooooooo dahhhhhhhhlings.  Don't worry, Emma didn't kill anyone.  My essence managed to fly out of me in the air before I landed!  

Edited April 20, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Even during the worst of this show's episodes, there was usually something that I was looking forward to or somewhat interested in. I realized after tonight that that's not the case anymore. I just don't care. And they've gotten so dark. Outside of Cruella playing Angry Birds, was there even any humor in this episode at all? This used to be a fun show with some interesting underlying themes, but now it's just a mess of nonsensical storylines and zero humor. Oh and apparently, this is one of the showrunners' favorite episodes ever. What does that say about this show?

 

While I racked my mind for something positive to say about this episode, I decided that I did enjoy how the "evil" Dalmatians were still all delightfully tail wagging. It's like they were fighting against this darken the heart storyline with all their canine might. No matter how hard you try, show, you can't truly make us evil.

Edited April 20, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Whodunnit]

TV Tropes ought to create a new trope for this show, called Antagonist (not protagonist) Centered Morality, because this show seems centered around it.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Whodunnit