Star Wars: Rogue One (2016)

[absnow54]

Why did Galen's team do all its engineering on Eadu but the schematics were stored on Scarif instead?

This bothered me too. Yeah, they had a repository on Scarif (a play on SCIF, I can only assume) that had all the relevant design documents, but, as chaotic and disorganized that data would all be, there would be a ton of information in that facility on Eadu, and if that's where Galen had been living, I'm sure Jyn could have done a sweep of his quarters and uncovered an important journal or something. They spent years in hiding, ready to run with only a moments notice. Jyn would know where her father would hide things. I guess I just needed a throwaway line that the Rebellion had done a full sweep and uncovered nothing there.

[jah1986]

I saw it yesterday and really liked it! I went alone and to one of those ritzy theaters that you wouldn't think would show a Star Wars movie so I think that cut into my absolutely loving it.  I did love all the easter eggs and think I caught most of them, probably because I was alone and didn't have to explain anything to anyone.  I had heard about CGI Tarkin but still enjoyed him. I wasn't expecting Red and Gold Leaders and was so happy to see them there. I think I gasped when Bail Organa showed up because I wasn't expecting him. Also didn't expect all the team to die but thought it was a good choice.

I admit I was getting a bit frustrated with the music and just the little hints of of the music we know so well, so you can imagine the big grin that spread across my face when I finally heard the iconic Star Wars theme at the end.

I have always loved Darth Vader and this movie was no different, I felt like this was the Darth Vader we'd always heard about but had never really seen. Sure he'd killed one or two people on screen before and force choked others but the realy menace to me was always just implied. But here we see why everyone is so terrified, that is a baaad sith lord, makes his grandson look even weaker by comparison in TFA.

I think I want to see it again with friends.

[VCRTracking]

Rogue One director says its original ending was very different

[Morrigan2575]

Interesting read, thanks!

[David T. Cole]

17 hours ago, arc said:

Why did Galen's team do all its engineering on Eadu but the schematics were stored on Scarif instead?

It didn't come across in the movie but from the prequel novel you learn that Galen's team was just one of a bunch of separate teams -- each working in secret, not knowing about the others -- building various parts of the Death Star.

In the data room when Jyn is reading off various project names, some of those are the other projects. So I assume Scarif is where the ingredients are mixed.

[Zuleikha]

So this is the one where I'm anomalous. I was solidly meh on it. It was okay, but I found the everyone dies bit to be gratuitous and tonally dissonant. The characters were shown as bit players--it's not really like I'd be questioning why I didn't see them in A New Hope. I could happily assume they were running around in the Rebellion somewhere off screen. It felt like faux darkness rather than earned darkness.

I'm not happy that Cassian was an assassin for the Rebellion. The original prequel plus Clone Wars does some interesting shades-of-grey stuff with the Republic not really being any better than the Separatists; the Jedis actually being kind of bad guys; and everyone being manipulated by Palpatine, but I feel like the creative team was always afraid to really commit to what they were putting on screen. The story was still told as though the audience was expected to find Jedis + whichever side they were fighting on good and Palpatine bad. With the Rebellion, I want them to have a moral line that they don't cross that makes them more worth rooting for than the Empire. I'm tired of rooting for characters because they're the POV protagonists. I want to have a solid understanding of why they're a morally better choice. The glimpses I've seen of daily life under the Empire doesn't really seem that much better or worse than daily life under the Old Republic, although I certainly wouldn't want to be in the echelons that report to Vader or Palpatine.

I didn't get Jyn Erso. She was promised to me as a resourceful, independent troublemaker of a heroine, but instead, I felt she was just there. She's important because she's Galen's daughter, which is a common and frustrating trope for female characters that was made worse by the paucity of other female characters (even of other women in the background!) But other than that she loves her father and has some resentment but affection for her surrogate father, I didn't have any sense of her motivations or even where her hope came from. It's funny that she has a product line where Rey's was so delayed, but it's tough for me to imagine who's going to connect to her (and do toys make sense as merchandising for a movie that's pretty age inappropriate for kids young enough to play with toys)

Likewise, the other characters... Cassian I got enough of a sense of and a bit Bodhi, but I didn't even know whether Chirrick had any abilities connected to the Force or whether he was simply a highly trained warrior priest. Were Bane and Cherrick supposed to be read as a gay couple? So when everyone died, I just felt like yeah... that's what people guessed would happen. But I didn't really care.

Also, why did Jyn think she had told the whole universe how to find the Death Star's weakness when apparently she had transmitted to one ship that needed to transmit the information on hard copy?

[Danny Franks]

Managed to avoid all spoilers, didn't even watch any TV spots or clips other than the official trailers. And I have to say... wow. Fantastic movie. I came out of that seriously thinking it might be my favourite Star Wars movie. I'll probably settle down soon and decide it's about third in my list but still....

I just felt from the trailers and the feel of the whole thing that I was in for a Dirty Dozen movie, with nearly everyone dying. I just didn't think that it would actually be everyone. I felt like Jyn would survive and go off somewhere, never to be seen again. But this felt right. They kept taking their chances, kept hoping, and they did their jobs. And they all died well.

I thought Jyn was a strong protagonist. Bitter and damaged, but with enough about her to buy that she'd do all this, and that she'd feel good at the end. Same with Cassian. The two of them had nice chemistry, and I didn't mind the moments they took at the end, hinting at deeper feelings. You're about to die with someone, a lingering look or two is fine.

Loved K2. As usual, the droids steal the show. Alan Tudyk gave him such dry wit,  and he had some killer lines of dialogue. Deadpan comedy that it's best. Riz Ahmed distracted me by looking so much like Bialar Crais that I genuinely forgot it wasn't him, more than once. I wish he'd been a little more fleshed out, in terms of his motivation for defecting, but I felt his death, more than many of them. 

The two monks, whose names I can't remember were always clearly on the death list, but I liked them both as well. A great bromance that felt deep and genuine. Loved their diverse skillsets and ways of fighting.

Really, what this movie did again, like The Force Awakens, was use the existing iconography of Star Wars to great effect. Loved the AT-ATs, which felt terrifying and unbeatable when they showed up. But loved them being beaten even more. The exact thought I had when the first AT-AT went down and the Rebels started cheering was, "man, I fucking love X-Wings". Because I do. They are the prettiest, most heroic looking ships in this franchise.

The rousing moments like that,  and like the Rebels turning up to fight the Imperial ships, got real emotional responses. Because even Admiral Not-Ackbar felt lime a fully fleshed out, sympathetic character. Which brings me on to Tarkin. Amazing CGI but... not quite right. I don't think it ever will be, because computers just can't quite recreate the vitality of a real human face. Same goes for Leia. Both were lovely surprises, and again used the iconography really well, but they didn't look 100% human.

Darth Vader just brings this innate sense of menace, whenever he's on screen. He's scary, pure and simple. Yes, we love him, but we love him because he is the epitome of cool villainy. I couldn't help but think of what we've said of Kylo Ren being a petty child, a tantrum-throwing boy with vast power, and how scary that is. But compare that to Vader's cold, ruthless, precise destruction of the Rebels when the Devastator dropped out of hyperspace at the end. That's the difference between them. Kylo Ren is more like Krannic, in his self-aware, moustache-twirling villainy. Vader doesn't care what his enemies think of him, he just does what he needs to.

I did love how neatly it was all tied up at the end, to take us straight into A New Hope. Sharp, very solid filmmaking.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Danny Franks

[Jediknight]

15 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The rousing moments like that,  and like the Rebels turning up to fight the Imperial ships, got real emotional responses. Because even Admiral Not-Ackbar felt lime a fully fleshed out, sympathetic character.

And he gave what may be the most emotional line in Star Wars, "Rogue One, may the Force be with you."

[benteen]

I liked Admiral Raddus a lot.  He may have been my favorite of the smaller characters in this movie.

[arc]

On 12/22/2016 at 6:41 AM, Jediknight said:

And he gave what may be the most emotional line in Star Wars, "Rogue One, may the Force be with you."

As a non-superfan... does that invocation of the Force track with the timeline? I vaguely thought in A New Hope that Jedi and the Force were barely more than myth among the general populace, even the Rebels?

[Perfect Xero]

19 minutes ago, arc said:

As a non-superfan... does that invocation of the Force track with the timeline? I vaguely thought in A New Hope that Jedi and the Force were barely more than myth among the general populace, even the Rebels?

 

The Rebel General Dodonna says "May the Force be with you," to the pilots during A New Hope, right before the battle of Yavin, so it's clearly still a common expression.

I think you could get the impression that it's a "myth" because Han said he didn't believe in the force when we first meet him, but he's a cynical smuggler who works for a giant slug crime lord. Also, Uncle Owen says some stuff about Obi Wan being a crazy old man, but he's clearly just saying that to keep Luke away from him and Anakin's legacy. Also from the imperial general who mocks Vader on the Death Star, but in that case you have to keep in mind that the Jedi have been all but extinct for 20 years, so they're pretty far away from any actual real world evidence of the power of the Force. To anyone who is young enough people who have actual force powers are basically a myth.

[arc]

^ so basically everyone who had a spoken opinion about the Force in ANH thought it was a myth. =)

But yes, I'd forgotten about Dodonna. Honestly, I haven't rewatched ANH in forever.

[absnow54]

46 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

To anyone who is young enough people who have actual force powers are basically a myth.

And that was highlighted in the movie when Baze mocked Chirrut for thinking he could open their cell with his mind. The Force is just like any religion, lots of people believe in it but few (if any) have witnessed the miraculous events that are at the religions foundation.

What I really liked about this movie is that they explored The Force's influence independent of the Jedi, which is something we haven't really seen in the movies before. It wasn't a major presence, but you still got the sense that the Force guided each character into the action and when they were protected until they fulfilled their destiny.

[ulkis]

On 12/19/2016 at 5:59 PM, Dandesun said:

Meanwhile, the Force Awakens had two sneering boys with a really big cannon fighting over a hologram. Ugh.

Well, when you put it like that, heh, they do seem a bit lame.

[VCRTracking]

Okay now I really want to read the novelization. It sounds really well written and you find out more about the characters:

Edited December 24, 2016 by VCRTracking

[GreyBunny]

Brief first impressions:

I really enjoyed it! A classic heist/raid film with some shiny special effects.

Mads Mikkelsen is my favorite actor, always happy to see him! 

Diego Luna = smokin' hot!

I almost yelled, "NONONONO!" When Bail Organa said he was going back to Alderaan.

[DrSpaceman73]

Saw the movie last night and had read nothing about it at all.  No reviews, no spoilers, not even much about the plot, nothing

Biggest criticism of it, and this is actually just minor in my mind, and actually had some positives to them, is the lack of connection for much of the story to many other characters or items from the other movies

It was also a bit confusing to follow the ins and outs of who the characters are and what is going on at the start.  I figured it out but my son and nephew had trouble figuring it out (11 and under)

However, I thought the movie was great.  It was enjoyable, fast moving, exciting.  The new characters were enjoyable if not particularly memorable, which doesn't matter much given the ending. 

I thought it was the best Star Wars movie since Empire.  They tied it together well at the end, and without cheesy scenes like "Luke!!!!"  "Leia!!!"  birth scene like in some other movie. 

My biggest criticism is : 

Why does he send a message about there being a "flaw" in the death star, and not send the death star plans too with that message?  He is the head of the project, not like he couldn't get a copy?  He is sending a secret message anyway, why not go all out and send all he can? 

Spoiler

 

That's a common type of sci fi scripting and writing error I think you just have to overlook in many cases though. 

I loved the movie.  I liked it better than The Force Awakens....wasn't relying on rehashed scrips and scenarios and "memberberries" from JJ Abrams like the movie last year, even though I liked it too

Edited :  Guess I don't need the spoilers.........

And agree with those who have said THAT is how you make a sequel.  THIS should have been Episode 3.  Who would have thought Disney would make a better version of it that Lucas himself

Given what we've seen so far Lucas should have sold Disney the rights to his films before the prequel, back in the early/mid 90s

Edited December 25, 2016 by DrSpaceman73

[JBC344]

5 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Saw the movie last night and had read nothing about it at all.  No reviews, no spoilers, not even much about the plot, nothing

Biggest criticism of it, and this is actually just minor in my mind, and actually had some positives to them, is the lack of connection for much of the story to many other characters or items from the other movies

It was also a bit confusing to follow the ins and outs of who the characters are and what is going on at the start.  I figured it out but my son and nephew had trouble figuring it out (11 and under)

However, I thought the movie was great.  It was enjoyable, fast moving, exciting.  The new characters were enjoyable if not particularly memorable, which doesn't matter much given the ending. 

I thought it was the best Star Wars movie since Empire.  They tied it together well at the end, and without cheesy scenes like "Luke!!!!"  "Leia!!!"  birth scene like in some other movie. 

My biggest criticism is : 

Why does he send a message about there being a "flaw" in the death star, and not send the death star plans too with that message?  He is the head of the project, not like he couldn't get a copy?  He is sending a secret message anyway, why not go all out and send all he can? 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

That's a common type of sci fi scripting and writing error I think you just have to overlook in many cases though. 

I loved the movie.  I liked it better than The Force Awakens....wasn't relying on rehashed scrips and scenarios and "memberberries" from JJ Abrams like the movie last year, even though I liked it too

Edited :  Guess I don't need the spoilers.........

And agree with those who have said THAT is how you make a sequel.  THIS should have been Episode 3.  Who would have thought Disney would make a better version of it that Lucas himself

Given what we've seen so far Lucas should have sold Disney the rights to his films before the prequel, back in the early/mid 90s

My understanding is that Mads character is heading up one specific team on the death star.  Supposedly there are multiple teams that are working on different parts of it.  Mads put the flaw in "his portion" of the construction.  Basically he doesn't have the full plans to the death star.  He is supposedly the most important person on the team but a team member none the less.

[starri]

6 hours ago, JBC344 said:

My understanding is that Mads character is heading up one specific team on the death star.  Supposedly there are multiple teams that are working on different parts of it.  Mads put the flaw in "his portion" of the construction.  Basically he doesn't have the full plans to the death star.  He is supposedly the most important person on the team but a team member none the less.

Galen was the one who designed the reactor to use the khyber crystals to amplify the power of the destructo-beam.  When he started on the project, he was told by Krennic that it was to increase power distribution for the Empire's subject worlds.  He figured out fairly quickly that he was lied to.

[DrSpaceman73]

I suppose you can come up with reasons he would not have the plans

It just seems crazy, though.  He is committing treason and putting his life in danger to send a message that the death star has a fatal flaw.  If he is going to that trouble to send the message, you'd think he would find a way to send more specifics to help out the Rebels on how to take advantage of it. 

Like I said though, my only complaint.  Its a great move otherwise

[Bruinsfan]

On 12/10/2016 at 1:38 PM, DollEyes said:

Ridiculous. These are some, if not all, of the same idiots bitched about TFA's casting John Boyega as Finn, which not only backfired on them, TFA is currently the third-highest grossing film of all time. In fact, I hope that Finn & Rey do end up together, just to piss these racist fucks off.

I certainly wouldn't mind that, though I think I'm hoping for Finn and Poe as a couple and Rey not needing to be paired up romantically with anyone for maximum nerdrage/head-exploding potential.

On 12/18/2016 at 8:47 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

Regarding the CGI, I actually thought Tarkin looked great. I remember seeing him show up and, thinking how much the technology has advanced since Antman and Tron Legacy.  I thought Leia's was more obvious, maybe because they used the Cybil Sheppard filter on her scene.  

I don't know, I think Young Michael Douglas in Ant Man is still the gold medal winner of such effects. Though the actor still being alive to work with no doubt helped immensely, and that was just for one scene. I think my biggest problem with it was they made Tarkin's eyebrows too dark and sinister. When he filmed A New Hope Cushing had very sparse-looking grey brows, and he wasn't so frowny with them.

On 12/18/2016 at 9:00 PM, benteen said:

Speaking of which, the voice of Tarkin was Stephen Stanon, who voiced Tarkin on both The Clone Wars and Rebels.  He also provided the voice for Admiral Raddus.  Supposedly David Ankrum, the voice of Wedge on The Clone Wars, could also be heard.

About the Death Star having pinpoint accuracy, Tarkin does say in ANH that “Perhaps it is time we test the full power of this station.”  That means it had been tested before, though in what capacity wasn’t revealed.

I thought Guy Henry did the voice work as well as being the physical stand-in for Tarkin?

As for the Death Star, it didn't really have the pinpoint accuracy down for its second test on Scarif, though apparently "close enough" works for horseshoes, hand grenades, and massive energy weapons that rupture a planet's crust to create a supervolcano. Or Tarkin wanted Kennic to have enough time to appreciate how screwed he was before the blast wave hit.

[VCRTracking]

Saw it again today and liked it even better the second time. Getting spoiled that the characters were going to die effected my experience the first time. Also the final Vader scene were  so FRIGGIN AWESOME they overwhelmed my thoughts about the movie. Once I got more into the characters and the plot I was able to enjoy it more including the final battle. Things like the beach battle against the walkers, Red Leader and Gold Leader's appearances and the tactic of the Hammerhead corvettes pushing the Star Destroyers made me smile more.  It's like THE AVENGERS where there's a slow buildup to a fantastic third act.
I wouldn't say the characters were thin as some critics say. They weren't classic archetypes like the OT characters but they were still  more complex. I think any feelings of disappointment comes from wanting to see more adventures of this group together. I wanted to see Jyn and Cassian's romance develop or Jyn's relationship with K2 or the bond she was starting to develop with Chirrut and Raze and Bohdi becoming a Rebel. You saw the potential for these characters and it makes their deaths more tragic.
Rewatching it I understood more Jyn's actions and her turn after her father's death. She had become hardened and cynical in the past 16 years but seeing Galen's message about what he did and being able to see him again made her realize the Rebellion had a chance. It gave her inspiration to fight and she inspired Cassian and the other Rebels who joined her. I'm more appreciative of what Felicity Jones and Diego Luna did in the movie. Also hearing Diego Luna speak the whole movie made me realize Mandy Patinkin was SPOT ON with his accent as Indigo Montoya in THE PRINCESS BRIDE! The heroism of not just the Rogue One group but the Rebels like Admiral Raddus, Blue Squadron and those soldiers killed by Vader as they got the plans to safety resonated so much more.

ROGUE ONE's success is important because it shows Disney that they can make a standalone Star Wars movie that 1)doesn't have an opening crawl 2) isn't connected to the Skywalker family or saga characters 3) have John Williams music 4) doesn't have Jedi or lightsaber fights. Now they can take more chances in the future and don't have to stick to formula. This was a great start.

Edited December 26, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Ronin Jackson]

I liked the film better than the Force Awakens, which I certainly didn't dislike. I think it's probably my third favorite Star Wars film after the first two of the original trilogy. I was happy to see the diverse troupe of characters and for unrelated reasons, glad to see the film go there and kill them all off. Michael Giacchino did a pretty good job imitation job and his music was as serviceable as Mr. Williams himself in his post OT efforts (which was the pinnacle of his Star Wars scoring by a fair margin). Still, one thing that was missing that all Williams efforts had was character themes that really stand out. So far the revival of the franchise has gone well, and I say this as someone who has been a bit skeptical of Disney's acquisition the headless creative direction of it, but it's worked so far (I am still skeptical of the long term prospects of the series,  but I'll enjoy it until the wheels come off).

One thing is clear, CGI humans has not been mastered. I saw some of the young Michael Douglas/Robert Downy Jr. Marvel efforts on the small screen... those efforts seemed better though I wonder if it was less convincing on the big screen. But CGI Leia only had to hold up for a a couple of seconds and it couldn't. And CGI Tarkin had to carry more screen time... I definitely found the effect more distracting than anything but it didn't completely pull me out of the story. If the young actor Marvel effort were more effective I wonder if it's because they were able to use the older actors as the motion capture stand ins, and they were able to mimic the actors expressions to a more precise degree.  

On the plus side, Vader was as good as he's been in a film appearance since arguably The Empire Strikes Back, though James Earl Jones aging did come through in his performance. 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Ronin Jackson

[Danny Franks]

16 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I certainly wouldn't mind that, though I think I'm hoping for Finn and Poe as a couple and Rey not needing to be paired up romantically with anyone for maximum nerdrage/head-exploding potential.

I think pairing the black man with another man would be far less offensive to most of these people than pairing him with the white woman. I liked the chemistry between Rey and Finn, and wouldn't object to them getting together. But I wouldn't object to them just being friends either. The only pairing that must not happen is Rey/Kylo Ren.

12 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

ROGUE ONE's success is important because it shows Disney that they can make a standalone Star Wars movie that 1)doesn't have an opening crawl 2) isn't connected to the Skywalker family or saga characters 3) have John Williams music 4) doesn't have Jedi or lightsaber fights. Now they can take more chances in the future and don't have to stick to formula. This was a great start.

They are all crutches that the franchise needed to get away from, to prove that it can be what Disney wants. And I agree that this movie did it admirably. I did miss the opening crawl, and the John Williams music. But the former is just a minor aesthetic choice, and the second is something that they have to be prepared to do. John Williams isn't going to be scoring these movies forever.

Regarding the lack of Skywalkers, I thought it was great. This one family has been so dominant in the mythology, and it just doesn't need to be. There's a whole galaxy out there, to explore. I really appreciated that this movie focused on the normal, non-special, non-prophesied Rebels who just want to fight to make their world a better place. And I loved seeing the Rebellion shown as less squeaky clean than a bunch of wholesome guys in orange flight-suits, led by a pretty princess dressed in white. These guys were guerrillas, saboteurs, and other latin language words for sneaky, violent bastards.

And I've long been an advocate of getting away from Jedi and lightsabers. I was so happy that this movie did that. It proved you don't either to make a good Star Wars movie, and the absence of Force-wielders meant that Darth Vader's scene at the end was so much more powerful. You saw what a Jedi or a Sith can do, from the point of view of the average person, and it's pretty terrifying. Comic books have explored this idea of seeing superheroes through the eyes of normal people, and it's about time Star Wars did it too.

11 hours ago, Ronin Jackson said:

On the plus side, Vader was as good as he's been in a film appearance since arguably The Empire Strikes Back, though James Earl Jones aging did come through in his performance. 

I definitely noticed a difference in the Vader voice, but I didn't think it was down to James Earl Jones, but more the timbre or pitch. Perhaps due to them recording and playing the vocals on more modern technology? It sounded a bit too polished.

[VCRTracking]

I think they effected the pitch because James Earl Jones is older now. It's the natural effects of aging. In the early 2000s re-release of The Good The Bad and the Ugly with deleted scenes put in but they didn't have the original audio so Clint Eastwood and Eli Wallach were brought back in to redub their characters and they sound completely different than their younger selves in the movie. When they did a video game of From Russia With Love they got Sean Connery to voice James Bond again but you have a young looking Bond that sounds like an old man.

Quote

They are all crutches that the franchise needed to get away from, to prove that it can be what Disney wants. And I agree that this movie did it admirably. I did miss the opening crawl, and the John Williams music. But the former is just a minor aesthetic choice, and the second is something that they have to be prepared to do. John Williams isn't going to be scoring these movies forever.

I did notice Krennic's theme both times. Also the Vader scene at the end was well scored influenced Williams operatic prequel tracks. The part that most sounds like Giacchino is when Jyn and Cassian make their way from the tower to the beach. It very much like a lot of his music on Lost at the end of an episode where they have a montage of the characters at the end. It always brings out the emotions when you hear it.

Edited December 26, 2016 by VCRTracking

[ulkis]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

They are all crutches that the franchise needed to get away from, to prove that it can be what Disney wants. And I agree that this movie did it admirably. I did miss the opening crawl, and the John Williams music. But the former is just a minor aesthetic choice, and the second is something that they have to be prepared to do. John Williams isn't going to be scoring these movies forever.

Regarding the lack of Skywalkers, I thought it was great. This one family has been so dominant in the mythology, and it just doesn't need to be. There's a whole galaxy out there, to explore. I really appreciated that this movie focused on the normal, non-special, non-prophesied Rebels who just want to fight to make their world a better place. And I loved seeing the Rebellion shown as less squeaky clean than a bunch of wholesome guys in orange flight-suits, led by a pretty princess dressed in white. These guys were guerrillas, saboteurs, and other latin language words for sneaky, violent bastards.

And I've long been an advocate of getting away from Jedi and lightsabers. I was so happy that this movie did that.

Have you checked out the "Lost Stars" book? Because it's more of the same theme, with the addition of point of view from someone within Imperial ranks as well.

Personally I think if you stray TOO far from Jedi and lightsabers what you're left with is Farscape. (Not that I think Jedi should always be the focus but there should be a sort of background presence of the myth.) Which, being like Farscape is a pretty awesome thing, don't get me wrong, but not quite Star Wars. Or more like I think they can do something where they don't mention Jedi at all but I think it's already been done better by shows like Farscape. 

I was fine without the opening crawl but that's because I think that should be something that's only in the trilogies.

Edited December 26, 2016 by ulkis

[DrSpaceman73]

I thought the movie balanced well the idea of both not relying too heavily on many other known star wars characters seen in prior movies or plots while at the same time using the story to answer a big question about the original story, which was how did they obtain the plans that Leia and R2 had in their possession? 

It used just enough of the prior stories to connect it to the rest of the saga but not so much that you couldn't enjoy the movie even if you didn't know about anything else at all in any of the other movies. 

I still wish there had been on opening scrawl, but I can see why they went without it.  part of it I think was to set it apart thematically with the rest of the story and part as well was to add to the mystery of figuring out as viewers where this story fits in with the others chronologically.  If they have to "set up" the story with the scrawl, which is typically what they use it for, there is less mystery about what we are watching and less mystery to this new story and characters we were seeing. 

[starri]

2 hours ago, ulkis said:

Personally I think if you stray TOO far from Jedi and lightsabers what you're left with is Farscape.

Why Farscape, exactly?  

[Joe]

28 minutes ago, starri said:

Why Farscape, exactly?  

My interpretation. It's a big actiony crazy space opera with heaps of aliens and weird stuff. Trek and BSG are a bit more dialed down. That or the Wayne Pygram connection.

[ulkis]

25 minutes ago, Joe said:

My interpretation. It's a big actiony crazy space opera with heaps of aliens and weird stuff. Trek and BSG are a bit more dialed down. That or the Wayne Pygram connection.

You got it with the first reason. :) Although maybe I should have said, "without the Jedi /force you'd have Farscape, except with a much, much bigger budget", heh.

Basically I am in agreement with what @absnow54 said:

And that was highlighted in the movie when Baze mocked Chirrut for thinking he could open their cell with his mind. The Force is just like any religion, lots of people believe in it but few (if any) have witnessed the miraculous events that are at the religions foundation.

What I really liked about this movie is that they explored The Force's influence independent of the Jedi, which is something we haven't really seen in the movies before. It wasn't a major presence, but you still got the sense that the Force guided each character into the action and when they were protected until they fulfilled their destiny.

Edited December 26, 2016 by ulkis

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, ulkis said:

You got it with the first reason. :) Although maybe I should have said, "without the Jedi /force you'd have Farscape, except with a much, much bigger budget", heh.

Basically I am in agreement with what @absnow54

I can't really agree with that. Star Wars is still distinct and clearly identifiable in its iconography and universe, even without Jedi. The sights and sounds make it unmistakably Star Wars, as this movie proved. If anything, it felt more like Star Wars to me than the prequels did, and they were full of Jedi, and had lightsabers flashing all over the place.

While I understand that this isn't really the point you're making, I think the differences from Farscape extend much further than the budget. Farscape embraced the weirdness of alien worlds and species, and played with those ideas in ways that were both juvenile and very adult. But it had its own, clearly identifiable universe, and while the Peacekeepers were their version of the Empire, I don't think there was much else that was the same. For example, Star Wars never had living ships or interspecies romance (except maybe in some novels I didn't read), Farscape never had distinct robot characters or a clearly sympathetic Rebellion-type faction. As a TV show, Farscape's world was deeper and more detailed. They worried about fuel and food (except for crackers, obviously, because they don't matter), they explained where races came from and their cultures, they explored their world a lot more. As a movie franchise, Star Wars hasn't really done this (again, outside novels or the animated shows). They never told us what an X-Wing runs on, or how the Rebellion kept everyone fed and where they got their equipment, or the cultural beliefs of Twi'leks or Mon Calamari.

Of course, this might all come, if a live action TV show ever gets commissioned. But I'm doubtful that they'll ever actually do that.

The Force is the dominant religion in the galaxy, and so it makes sense for it to be mentioned and thought about. But the zealous beliefs of the Jedi have been replaced with the scepticism and perhaps even athiesm of Baze and Han Solo. Some still believe completely, like Chirrut, but people look at them funny and scoff.

[shrewd.buddha]

On 12/21/2016 at 4:55 PM, Zuleikha said:

I'm tired of rooting for characters because they're the POV protagonists. I want to have a solid understanding of why they're a morally better choice.

I'm not sure how I would feel if this had been my first Star Wars movie. It was a bit of a downer. I can recall the feeling of watching WW2 movies where you could tell that the heroes were going to make a final, noble sacrifice.  But those were  movies about WW2, an actual event - - not a swashbuckling space fantasy. 

I feel badly for parents taking younger kids to see this,  expecting a rousing feel-good movie for Christmas. It does give the basis of A New Hope more of a heavier, grounded feel. The original trilogy seems very light in comparison. I can respect the portrayal of war as truly dangerous and bleak - and not all movies need a happy ending. .. but I wouldn't go see Old Yeller on Christmas day. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by shrewd.buddha

[ulkis]

3 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I feel badly for parents taking younger kids to see this,  expecting a rousing feel-good movie for Christmas. It does give the basis of A New Hope more of a heavier, grounded feel. The original trilogy seems very light in comparison. I can respect the portrayal of war as truly dangerous and bleak - and not all movies need a happy ending. .. but I wouldn't go see Old Yeller on Christmas day. 

At this point, if parents think a Star Wars movie is going to be automatically younger kid friendly though that's kinda their own fault.

I can understand though thinking a SW movie released on a holiday might be more upbeat though. 

[ulkis]

44 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I can't really agree with that. Star Wars is still distinct and clearly identifiable in its iconography and universe, even without Jedi. The sights and sounds make it unmistakably Star Wars, as this movie proved. If anything, it felt more like Star Wars to me than the prequels did, and they were full of Jedi, and had lightsabers flashing all over the place.

While I understand that this isn't really the point you're making, I think the differences from Farscape extend much further than the budget. Farscape embraced the weirdness of alien worlds and species, and played with those ideas in ways that were both juvenile and very adult. But it had its own, clearly identifiable universe, and while the Peacekeepers were their version of the Empire, I don't think there was much else that was the same. For example, Star Wars never had living ships or interspecies romance (except maybe in some novels I didn't read), Farscape never had distinct robot characters or a clearly sympathetic Rebellion-type faction. As a TV show, Farscape's world was deeper and more detailed.

That's what I meant by "Or more like I think they can do something where they don't mention Jedi at all but I think it's already been done better by shows like Farscape." Especially if they were to take the Star Wars universe to a grittier place. Even if SW doesn't have Leviathans and Farscape no droids, the basic concept is still the same without the force in SW canon, imo.

We may not be necessarily disagreeing though. I think you can have a SW story without actual Jedi or lightsabers showing up but I still think the influence and the legend need to be present, which I think it was in Rogue One, especially since Vader pops up.

[SnoGirl]

So, venturing into this convo about having Jedi's or not, was Chirrut not a Jedi? I felt that Chirrut was a rusty Jedi, one who did not use a lightsaber. 

He believed whole-heartedly in the force, was able to successfully fight blind, and had an uncanny sense to dodge shots from blasters. I will say I was surprised he didn't get them out of their cell (especially with Baze's sarcastic remarks about him doing it) but I thought he was waiting until he knew what happened to Jyn. I thought he was a Jedi. Or was he a warrior who believed in the Force?

I wonder if we'll ever see Jedha again in the later films. It would be interesting to see the aftermath of the Death Star where the planet wasn't completely destroyed.

[Morrigan2575]

Chirrut wasn't a Jedi, he definitely seemed to be Force Sensitive but, that doesn't make him a Jedi.  Jedi is a religion or order made up of Force sensitive members, you can be force sensitive and never become a Jedi (Leia, Chirrut, Maz) or you could be a former Jedi that either quit or was kicked out of the order (Ahsoka Tano - Clone Wars, Jolee Bindo - KOTOR). I can't remember if The Inquisitors were force sensitive in Rebels, I think they were but, they weren't With either). 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[VCRTracking]

They showed Chirrut listening so he knew where the Stormtroopers surrounding him were. That's how he was able to dodge blasts. Farfetched but that's how the popular character of the blind swordsman Zatoichi whos appeared in more than 20 Japanese films, fights.

New York Times article on how ILM recreated Tarkin:

How ‘Rogue One’ Brought Back Familiar Faces
 

Quote

 

For example, the original “Star Wars” film (also known as “A New Hope”) was lit differently than “Rogue One,” raising questions of how to adjust the lighting on the character.

Hal Hickel, an Industrial Light & Magic animation supervisor, said that lighting him “the way he was in ‘A New Hope’ improved his likeness as Tarkin, but it worsened the sense of him being real because then he didn’t look like any of the actors in the scene.”

 

This suddenly made sense to me because the lighting in Rogue One IS different than the original. It wasn't that Tarkin didn't look realistic, it was the coloring was more saturated and that explains why.

[snickers]

I'm with those who say they are impressed that they had the guts to kill them all off and I too wonder what the original version was that the Disney execs didn't like.  I thought it was that originally they had killed them all off and the Disney execs made them change it.

The Vader fight scene was great! It really does show how bad Kylo Ren is, but then again, I was not a fan of his character at all.  K2 was funny but BB8 still holds my heart LOL

So far I've been really impressed with Disney taking over, with TFA and Rouge One, using real sets and real places instead of the CGI overload of the prequels, I'm really looking forward to the Han Solo spin off movie now.

Edited December 28, 2016 by snickers

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, snickers said:

I'm with those who say they are impressed that they had the guts to kill them all off and I too wonder what the original version was that the Disney execs didn't like.  I thought it was that originally they had killed them all off and the Disney execs made them change it.

The original ending was that they all lived, here's what Edwards said about it

“The very first version, they didn’t [die]. In the screenplay. And it was just assumed by us that we couldn’t do that. ‘They’re not going to let us do that.’ So I was trying to figure out how this ends where that doesn’t happen. And then everyone read that and there was this feeling of like, ‘They’ve got to die, right?’ And everyone was like, ‘Yeah, can we?’ We thought we weren’t going to be allowed to but Kathy [Kennedy, President of Lucasfilm] and everyone at Disney were like ‘Yeah it makes sense; I guess they have to because they’re not in A New Hope.’ And so from that point on we had the license.”

So it was Disney who wanted it darker.

[Bruinsfan]

Edwards should have just pitched the Rogue One characters as analogous to parents for the A New Hope characters from the beginning; Disney execs would have been "off with their heads!" from the word go.

[Captain Carrot]

Just saw Rogue one again last night, and Tarkin looked better this time. I think the first time I saw it, I was trying to verify that it looked fake. (If that makes sense). This time, I just accepted it for what it was, and I wasn't taken out of the moment.

Also, I have to admit that I got a little teary eyed when Leia appeared.

[VCRTracking]

15 hours ago, snickers said:

So far I've been really impressed with Disney taking over, with TFA and Rouge One, using real sets and real places instead of the CGI overload of the prequels, I'm really looking forward to the Han Solo spin off movie now.

There was just as much CGI if not more but it's how it's used is important. It isn't distracting. K2SO is CGI but they don't go overboard with his motions. The ships are all CGI but they all look like models(especially the Star Destroyers). Locations like Yavin, Jedha, and Scarif are all mostly digital but blended in with real locations.

[Unusual Suspect]

10 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

Just saw Rogue one again last night, and Tarkin looked better this time. I think the first time I saw it, I was trying to verify that it looked fake. (If that makes sense). This time, I just accepted it for what it was, and I wasn't taken out of the moment.

Also, I have to admit that I got a little teary eyed when Leia appeared.

I also went to rewatch Rogue One, and I found Tarkin looked worse. Yeah, if you're looking for flaws, they're there.

And yes, I also teared up. This bloody year ...

[ulkis]

45 minutes ago, Unusual Suspect said:

I also went to rewatch Rogue One, and I found Tarkin looked worse. Yeah, if you're looking for flaws, they're there.

Yeah, I don't know if I would realize he was CGI if I didn't know, but since I did know, I definitely noticed how he had a tendency to dip his head to one side. I don't know. It was kinda creepy. I don't think they needed to use Tarkin in the movie.

Anyway, I liked the movie, but I definitely wouldn't call it the best Star Wars movie ever. At first I thought this was a Star Wars movie for people who aren't really into Star Wars, but if you've never seen a Star Wars movie I think the end would be a little like "uh, what just happened?" towards the end. (Which I thought was a little abrupt. "Here's Leia okay credits go!"

Seeing Vader's evilness, and Bail mentioning his absolute trust in his daughter, makes me wonder if they will finally articulate the fanon/EU canon that Leia could never really forgive Vader on-screen in episode 8.

I think someone mentioned up thread that it was kinda irritating how they would start with the music cues from the previous movies and then kinda switch it before it could really get going.

Also someone mentioned how the movie really expanded the setting, and it did, although I admit, if there is one thing I think the prequels provided it made it seem like there were actual populations in the galaxy. This movie did that too. (Strangely enough "Force Awakens" didn't really do much in that department.)

Anyway, watching all the different settings and the action, I can't help but wonder if one day they will be tempted into making a remake of the original trilogy, or at least a CGI cartoon*, like how Disney is making live actions movies of all their animated features except vice versa.

*[Insert your own prequels joke here.]

Oh, and any other rifftrax fans here also wondering how many Jack Tono Porkins jokes they will probably make if they riff this one?

Edited December 29, 2016 by ulkis

[Ravenya003]

Good Lord what an exhausting, stressful, harrowing week to be a Star Wars fan. I saw Rogue One over a week ago now, but I wanted some time to mull it over before commenting. Here are some (rather miscellaneous) thoughts: 

It's interesting to compare my preconceptions of the film with what actually unfolded: when I first learned that Rogue One would be about the Rebels stealing the plans to the Death Star I assumed it would be a spy/heist flick, detailing how they learnt of the weapon, assembled a team, formulated a clever and complex plan, trained and prepared for the mission, and implemented it with the expected combination of finesse and fuck-ups. 

But instead of a well-oiled team who knew each other's strengths and weaknesses, led and sanctioned by the Rebel Alliance, Rogue One was a group of rebels within the rebellion, going off on their own from a fractured organization that rejected their plea for action; a last-ditch attempt to achieve something before the Empire took over, even if it was just personal atonement. Between that and the heroes being painted with significant shades of grey, it was a pretty unexpected turn of events.

(Which isn't to say it's bad, just not what I was expecting).

I'd heard about the extensive reshoots, and you can just TELL that a lot of stuff was snipped and reedited, often in ways that didn't make sense. The first act is a mess, and the characters suffer for it. Though the trailers portray Jyn as a very prickly, insouciant smartass ("this is a Rebellion, I rebel"), I get the feeling someone upstairs started panicking that she wasn't "likeable" enough and so left a lot of stuff on the cutting room floor. Meanwhile, Cassian's introductory scene has him shooting his own informant, but we never really learn more about his state of mind in doing this or any of the other dodgy activities that were mentioned, even though I'm sure his character was built on the (promising) idea of a man constantly weighing the cost of his own humanity against the success of the mission.

Saw (which was a truly bizarre performance from Forest Whitaker) and his torture of Bodhi with a giant slug should have been cut entirely in favour of actually SEEING Galen reach out to Bodhi and talk him into taking his message to the Alliance. Because seriously, I didn't get any of Bodhi's motivation for leaving the Empire beyond (like Cassian) a vague mention of "atonement". And as cool as Baze and Chirrut were as character concepts, it mostly felt as though they just tagged along because they had nothing better to do that day. It's a pity that no strong team dynamic was formed, save between Jyn/Cassian/Kaytoo. 

(Also, if Jyn's father took the risk of sending a defecting Imperial pilot to deliver a hologram message by hand, why not just deliver the plans at the same time? Leia managed to do that just FINE when she sent her message to Obi Wan).

If Jyn was on her own since she was fifteen, what exactly was she doing in all that time? What did she do to get herself imprisoned when we first see her as an adult? Deliberate sabotage of the Empire, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Shouldn't she have stronger/more explicit thoughts/feelings about the conflict going on around her? Why didn't she react to the fact her father was killed by friendly fire? Jyn and Cassian's confrontation after his attempted assassination of Galen was great stuff, but why doesn't it get built on in subsequent scenes? It just felt as though there were a lot of good characters here, but we never actually learn anything about them but the most rudimentary details (and those details are told to us rather than shown).

But after all the bouncing around of the first act, things started to coalesce as the film went on, and I genuinely loved what went down in the final act. The battle scenes were beautifully done, with the three-tiered action in space, on land and in the Empire facility. 

Krennic was solid if low-key villain: a bit more fleshing out of his relationship to the Ersos (since there was clearly a history there) would have done wonders, but I loved what the AV Club review pointed out: that he fails because he assumes he's indispensable, while the Rogue One team succeed because they know they're expendable.

Though I think that Jyn/Cassian were both underwritten characters individually, the actors had fantastic chemistry and managed to sell an emotional arc amidst all the obvious reshoots and editing. Everyone seems to have a different opinion as to what went on in that elevator just before they hit the beach, but I thought their silent gaze at each other was a beautiful way of conveying each one's distraught realisation that: "I could love this person, but I'll never get the chance to find out." It really hit home that they weren't just giving up their lives for a good cause, which would have been poignant enough: that they die just as they find something worth living for is what really makes it a tragedy.

A future together was the real sacrifice, and so the image of them locked together as the blast radius rolls towards them had me choked up. Kudos to Disney for having the balls to go through with that instead of providing a convenient escape pod. 

And of course, the Darth Vader scene was a sight to behold: for the first time I completely forgot the foregone conclusion and was terrified that the Rebels wouldn't get the plans out in time. 

All things considered, I think Rogue One is fundamentally about a) believing in something bigger than yourself, whether it be the Force, the mission, or the person standing next to you, and b) giving your life for that something. In many ways it's an ode to the Red Shirts: before this film we had no idea who the Rebel spies were that leaked the Death Star plans, and the characters who populate the original trilogy STILL don't. Though I'm sure there were stories told and monuments made, the fact that they're never mentioned in any of the other films means you can't help but feel that (on some level) they were forgotten.

But they had no illusions about survival, or about being remembered - they just saw a task that needed doing, and did it. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Ravenya003

[GreyBunny]

On 12/25/2016 at 8:33 PM, VCRTracking said:

Disney that they can make a standalone Star Wars movie that doesn't...have John Williams music

Something nagged me about R1 and I couldn't put my finger on it until now.  I just finished watching TFA (Carrie! *sob!*) and it struck me how Williams composes so that the smaller moments of the music weave effortlessly in and out through the scenes and the dialogue, it's subtle and elegant and gives everything a bit of a lift.  The composer for R1 didn't achieve that and the movie felt a little flat because of it. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by GreyBunny

[TDT]

16 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

Just saw Rogue one again last night, and Tarkin looked better this time. I think the first time I saw it, I was trying to verify that it looked fake. (If that makes sense). This time, I just accepted it for what it was, and I wasn't taken out of the moment.

Also, I have to admit that I got a little teary eyed when Leia appeared.

That final shot with Leia now takes on a whole new context due to the death of Carrie Fisher(and just recently Debbie Reynolds) :(

[Danny Franks]

12 hours ago, ulkis said:

Seeing Vader's evilness, and Bail mentioning his absolute trust in his daughter, makes me wonder if they will finally articulate the fanon/EU canon that Leia could never really forgive Vader on-screen in episode 8.

 

I don't think there's any reason that Leia should ever have forgiven Vader. Just because he turned on his master in the end, and saved Luke (and his motives are already questionable, because Palpatine had effectively tossed Vader aside and told Luke to kill him), and just because he's her dad, doesn't mean she should ever let him off for destroying her entire planet, all the people on it, and her family. That's even without looking at anything else Vader had done in the twenty plus years he was helping the Empire oppress the Galaxy. I don't even think Luke should have forgiven him, and the idea that Anakin gets to smile and hang out with ghost Yoda and Obi Wan is a bit much... especially when they made it young Anakin. He's not earned that.

I did like the final shot of Leia, even though the CGI didn't quite work. Because it's the moment that takes us right into the original movie. I wish that they'd been smarter about tying up loose ends, though.

For example, the Rebels in A New Hope tell Vader they're on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan. He knows they're not, because he just saw their ship disengage from the Calamari cruiser. In hindsight, it just makes him look a bit silly that they'd even try to lie to him. They also talk about the plans being 'transmitted', rather than passed through the jammed door on a disk. So if it was me, I'd have just put the Tantive IV away from the battle, and had Vader cut his way through to the ship's bridge as the plans are transmitted, then end the movie with him telling one of his lackeys to trace the signal, before cutting to Leia. Just a bit neater.

Quote

All things considered, I think Rogue One is fundamentally about a) believing in something bigger than yourself, whether it be the Force, the mission, or the person standing next to you, and b) giving your life for that something. In many ways it's an ode to the Red Shirts: before this film we had no idea who the Rebel spies were that leaked the Death Star plans, and the characters who populate the original trilogy STILL don't.

I like that. It's not a viewpoint that is shown often, in stories like this. It's always about the Chosen One fighting the fight that was destined. It's rarely about the guys who just signed up because they believed in the cause. This movie was much more like a traditional war movie, in that sense. I said the trailers made it look like The Dirty Dozen, and that's really what these guys were. They weren't picked out and given the task because of their spectacular abilities; even Cassian and Jyn were more caught up in events than anything else. They just ended up in a position where they knew there was a right thing to do, and so they did it.

The bittersweet ending really caps this more adult approach to the story. They win, but it costs them everything. And we know that the victory they secure will lead to the ultimate victory in the end. And it shows other writers how they can kill characters but have it actually mean something, and serve the narrative. Instead of just doing it to shock the audience.

[ulkis]

17 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't think there's any reason that Leia should ever have forgiven Vader.

I don't either, but I would still like to hear Leia articulate how all these family revelations affected her/how she felt about them on-screen. Even just a brief "I tried to tell Ben that it didn't matter that he was my father, he was still a monster" or something like that in Force Awakens I think would have at least touched upon it. It's easily guessed, and I don't think they need to hit the audience over the head with a hammer with it, but it would have been/would be a good character moment to hear it.

[starri]

Didn't she say something like "There's too much Vader in him?"