The DC Extended Universe: To Thanagar and Beyond!

[millennium]

Perfect Zero, Bruinsfan and MarkHB, thanks for the updates.   My heart still belongs to the pre-Crisis DC universe, so I have a lot of difficulty accepting and reconciling post-Crisis and New 52 changes.   And what now, Rebirth?   I can't keep up.   Truth be told, I don't want to, because a lot of it spits in the face of characters and storylines I really liked and I get no sense that it was done for anything but money.   I mean, Barry Allen dead?  Just no.   When I was a kid I used to have a sense that DC was bigger and better than Marvel but DC's frantic, schizophrenic changes over the years have shown who's trying to play catch-up.   You can see it in the movies too.

[Captain Carrot]

Millennium, your post reminded me of an article about the problem with DC. I've attached the link below, but basically the problem is that:
 

Quote

 

Last week, I dug in a little into the idea that even though they share prominent creators and have influenced each other back and forth over the course of the last 50 years, the DC and Marvel Universes have some fundamental differences in the way they’re structured. One of the things I really wanted to get across in that column was that neither one is really fundamentally better than the other, they’re just incompatible in a lot of ways, and I touched on how that results in something I call The Problem. Since that’s still pretty fresh in everybody’s mind, and since you were nice enough to set the ball right on the tee and hand me the bat, I might as well elaborate on that now. It’s actually pretty simple.

To put it bluntly, The Problem is that DC wants to be Marvel, and they have for the past 50 years.

 

http://comicsalliance.com/dc-comics-marvel-golden-age-silver-age-comics-history/

[millennium]

53 minutes ago, Captain Carrot said:

Millennium, your post reminded me of an article about the problem with DC. I've attached the link below, but basically the problem is that:
 

http://comicsalliance.com/dc-comics-marvel-golden-age-silver-age-comics-history/

Wow, that was quite a read.

This rang very true and close to home:

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This is the key point, and it’s the one that’s glossed over to an almost maddening degree. The reason they always state in the company line is that the Pre-Crisis was just too darn complicated for “new and occasional readers” — that’s how they phrase it in the recent Superman 75th Anniversary hardcover — and it makes a certain kind of sense when you consider that stuff like knowing the difference between Earth-2, Earth-X and Earth-C was considered the arcane realm of annoyingly detail-oriented True Fans™. Really, though? It’s one of the biggest and most persistent lies in the history of DC Comics, albeit one that ranks significantly lower than “Batman Created By Bob Kane.”

It’s complete bulls**t, and we know that for a variety of reasons. First, the DC Multiverse wasn’t actually used that often. It showed up once a year in Justice League for their annual crossover, but beyond that, it wasn’t really used any more than any other plot device,

 

I liked Earth 2 and the Justice League/Justice Society crossover issues.   It was always fascinating to see a slightly altered version of the same character, but with a different history -- for example, Batman being older and semi-retired and having a grown daughter who became the Huntress.   I was perfectly at home with it and from the very start never experienced a moment of confusion between Earth 1 and Earth 2 characters --and I was like ten years old (actually, the only Earth-2 confusion I ever experienced was this year on The Flash TV show, which had me saying "Huh?" with the whole Zoom/Zolomon Kane/pretending to be Jay Garrick thing, but I chalk that up to poor writing, not the Earth-2 concept).

Overall, the article made me feel melancholy because I miss the old DC.   It was dependable and optimistic and a fine escape.   I read almost every title, even House of Secrets and Weird War -- hell, I even have a few issues of Plop! in my childhood collection.   I will say, it was interesting to finally learn why books like OMAC, The Demon, and Kamandi started appearing.   They always seemed apart from usual DC fare.  Now I know why.

Coming away from the article, I feel like DC gave up on kids which is truly a shame.  Kids are the reasons comic books survived for all those years.   Kids like me who spent every dime I ever made from my newspaper route on comic books (and Wacky Packages, of course).   Ironically, I don't think kids today could afford to buy comic books the way I did.   I would buy 10-15 titles a week at twenty cents, later 25, a pop.   Say $3-4 a week.   What would that cost today?  $39.50?  $158/month?  More?

There's that melancholy feeling again.

Edited June 10, 2016 by millennium
the infuriating new format

[JessePinkman]

It's funny to me that DC has all these crisises to fix or streamline their continuity but all it's done for me as a non-regular fan (for what it's worth I also haven't bought a Marvel comic on any consistent basis in probably a decade, that said there's a degree of certainty to me when I do buy a Marvel comic book that I don't get from DC) is make their universe far more confusing and far harder to jump into. 

It seems like they're in a constant state of flux that has more to do with behind-the-scenes then the content of the books. Like "Let's reboot everything again because this section of the fandom didn't like this one thing or this other thing" as opposed to just fixing that one thing and letting the story move forward. The storytelling feels like it's been going sideways for 30 years.

[Bruinsfan]

I think the immediate post-Crisis landscape at DC actually worked pretty well. You had popular, fresh new takes on Superman and Wonder Woman by industry greats, a big new event the next year that relaunched the Justice League franchise, the Vertigo line becoming a home to all sorts of innovative and critically acclaimed titles. While there were some things that didn't quite work (the Hawkman & Hawkwoman mess, Legion continuity, Power Girl's origin du jour), it mostly ran fine for the next eight years or so. What Kevin Dooley did to Green Lantern was the first big warning sign of cynicism and edginess for its own sake becoming the driving forces on an editorial level, and things went downhill from there.

[MarkHB]

"Sources" tell Variety that Rick Famuyiwa's top choice for the female lead in The Flash is Kiersey Clemons.  THR reporter Borys Kit then followed that with

Note that Variety also says that the female lead being "Iris West" is unconfirmed.

[Trini]

I've seen speculation about Clemons getting the role since Famuyiwa was named the director; I'm taking all this with a grain of salt for now.

[Bruinsfan]

Is Clemons good? I haven't seen any of her work, but Dope was well-reviewed overall.

[MarkHB]

For those who are interested, Batman News will be live-blogging the Warner Bros. presentation at Comic-Con today.  11:30 Am Pacific Time, 2:30 Pm Eastern, anyone elsewhere who isn't sure can click here for the current San Diego time.

[Trini]

Variety is reporting that Kiersey Clemons is the female lead* in The Flash movie.

*(It doesn't seem to be confirmed that it is Iris West -- they say "likely".)

[SeanC]

Clemons seems a little young to be a "tough-as-nails reporter", but I guess that's Hollywood.  Actually, how old is DCEU!Barry supposed to be?

[Trini]

There's an answer for that! It's from the Justice League set visit a month ago,

Spoiler

"... Barry Allen’s student ID card at Central City University. On the ID card, we can see that Barry Allen was born on September 30, 1992, making him 23-years-old at the moment, 25-years-old by the time of Justice League’s November 2017 release."

So, he's the same age as Ezra. But they could always adjust that.

[Trini]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

*(It doesn't seem to be confirmed that it is Iris West -- they say "likely".)

Okay, nevermind:

[Rick Kitchen]

Geoff Johns is now President & Chief Creative Officer of DC Entertainment.

[JessePinkman]

Former Warner Bros employee pens open letter to CEO Kevin Tsujihara

Some excerpts:

Quote

Zack Snyder is not delivering. Is he being punished? Assistants who were doing fantastic work certainly were. People in finance and in marketing and in IT. They had no say in a movie called Batman V Superman only having 8 minutes of Batman fighting Superman in it, that ends because their moms have the same name. Snyder is a producer on every DC movie. He is still directing Justice League. He is being rewarded with more opportunity to get more people laid off. I'm assuming you yourself haven't been financially affected in any real way. You and your studio are the biggest lesson about life one can learn: The top screws up and the bottom suffers. Peter Jackson phones it in and a marketing supervisor has to figure out a plan B for house payments.

 

 

 

 

Quote

What are you even doing? I wish to God you were forced to live out of a car until you made a #1 movie of the year. Maybe Wonder Woman wouldn't be such a mess. Don't try to hide behind the great trailer. People inside are already confirming it's another mess. It is almost impressive how you keep rewarding the same producers and executives for making the same mistakes, over and over.

 

 

Another Marvel shill!

Edited August 12, 2016 by JessePinkman

[Zuleikha]

My only hope is that she's not currently working for Warner Bros. so the Wonder Woman talk could be bitter, disgruntled staffers who have lost confidence. I will not learn my lesson. I will not lose faith in Wonder Woman! 

She doesn't seem to be verified, so she could also be fake. But I don't really believe that. The way she expressed the anger in felt like genuine ex-worker anger more than fan anger.

[MarkHB]

Believe it or not, we now have an article on Shazam!

Quote

Says [Dany] Garcia: “Shazam! is to live in the same world [as the other films] but we have incredible autonomy over this brand and franchise. We are working with a different team, different producers, directors… it’s a different set-up.

Garcia is Dwayne Johnson's producing partner and manager; it seems that this is largely going to be The Rock's project.

Quote

So, where do things stand at present? “We’re getting [script] drafts in… it’s important to make sure we get the tone right for Black Adam, which is Dwayne’s part,” Garcia says. “We don’t mind taking our time. We’re being very careful with each act and scene to go back and layer in as much as possible.”

[xaxat]

7 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

Says [Dany] Garcia: “Shazam! is to live in the same world [as the other films] but we have incredible autonomy over this brand and franchise. We are working with a different team, different producers, directors… it’s a different set-up.

Translation: Fans, this totally separate from the Snyderverse!

[Kromm]

2 hours ago, xaxat said:

Translation: Fans, this totally separate from the Snyderverse!

Second level of translation:  The smell of shit should at worst only be faint. Unless The Rock is the one who makes this suck instead of Zachie Boy.

[Bruinsfan]

What I'm hearing makes me worry a bit that it's going to be a Captain Marvel movie in name only (well, technically not even that, I guess) with Black Adam as the actual protagonist. He's an interesting villain, but they should keep in mind that he IS the villain, not the hero.

[JustaPerson]

An interesting post-mortem on Suicide Squad

[Kromm]

33 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

What I'm hearing makes me worry a bit that it's going to be a Captain Marvel movie in name only (well, technically not even that, I guess) with Black Adam as the actual protagonist. He's an interesting villain, but they should keep in mind that he IS the villain, not the hero.

Yeah, the comics themselves had a real problem with that too. Years of comics centered more around Adam instead of the Marvels.  

Admittedly at times its hard to make that bunch very interesting (and when they try it's total garbage, like the really shady stuff they did with Mary Marvel before and during Final Crisis... which no surprise made her evil... a female Black Adam). 

And Billy?  He's the pits. Boring as hell.  Hopefully they have an angle on him that's better than usual for the movie.

[MarkHB]

Someone recently suggested David Mazouz would make a great Billy, except that he's already Batman.  They tried to make him interesting in New52. when they turned him from a Pollyanna into a brat.  I'm not sure that worked.

[JustaPerson]

I'm not sure what to think about the DCEU's (I got this from someone else) "Reverse-Avengers" method of weaving other heroes and the next film into the universe. By that I mean, having other heroes appearing or cameo in films other than their own BEFORE the big group movie (justice league) and their solo film. Ex. Flash appearing in Bruce Wayne's dream (or was it a vision?) presumably from a future JL film, Flash's cameo in SS, WW appearing in BvS. At least I'm assuming there's a method to Warners Bros' madness rather than just rushing to set up the universe.

I've seen fans saying this is their way of differentiating themselves from Marvel's way of doing it (with the end credit scenes) but Marvel actually did something kind of similar in Ant-man with a partial scene featuring Bucky, Steve, and Sam presented with little context that ended up being in Civil War. And I guess that's what ended up happening with Black Panther and Spider-man. The difference I suppose is that the MCU seems a bit sturdier to be able to handle stuff like that unlike the DCEU which is just getting started. 

[JessePinkman]

Doug Liman to direct Justice League Dark

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While plot details are being kept under wraps, the story revolves around a dark Justice League team that consists of John Constantine, Swamp Thing, Deadman, Zatanna and Etrigan the Demon.

 

 

Why are they making this random ass movie? Why don't they focus on building a strong set of individual movies before a team up movie of characters most people haven't heard of? The way WB is handling their DC slate reminds me of Sony's Spider-Man plans which consisted of an Aunt May movie and a team of women superheroes (or villains?) even most comic book fans hadn't heard of.

I'm totally a fan of being ambitious but every decision they make seems like "Well, it's a comic book isn't it?". 

That said, I really want to see Zatanna onscreen. 

Edited August 24, 2016 by JessePinkman

[MarkHB]

I want to see Etrigan as well, personally.  But this had been going around for a while, originally being pushed by Guillermo del Toro, and I think if they lean into the actual horror movie aspects this could play really well.  I predict a Hallowe'en release in whatever year they're aiming for :) .

[FurryFury]

I guess we won't see Constantine in Flarrowverse anytime soon then. Pity, he was really fun on Arrow last season.

[Trini]

22 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

Why don't they focus on building a strong set of individual movies before a team up movie of characters most people haven't heard of?

I think that because these characters are so 'random' it's probably better to have them all in one ensemble film rather than gamble on 4 or 5 individual films.  ::shrug::

---

On a different note -- despite Suicide Squad getting panned by critics, it actually did well financially, right? I'm no expert on Hollywood accounting, but it seems to have made back it's budget, and is in the Top Ten movies of the 2016 (so far).

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I think that because these characters are so 'random' it's probably better to have them all in one ensemble film rather than gamble on 4 or 5 individual films.  ::shrug::

---

 

Unless I missed something, this movie is an animated straight to home DVD, so no point in having individual movies for them. And aside from a few- Zatanna, Etrigan, Deadman(?) have all appeared in Justice League Unlimited . Zatanna and Etrigan in Batman: The Animated Series .

[Trini]

The Animated JLD is coming out this Fall, but there's also a live-action movie that's been in development. Guillermo del Toro was attached to it for a while.

[MarkHB]

@Trini is right; the animated film is separate. Doug Limon is going to direct a real live-action film that will be part of the DCEU.

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Unless I missed something, this movie is an animated straight to home DVD, so no point in having individual movies for them. And aside from a few- Zatanna, Etrigan, Deadman(?) have all appeared in Justice League Unlimited . Zatanna and Etrigan in Batman: The Animated Series .

[MarkHB]

On another note, Ben Affleck put this out today on all his social media...

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, MarkHB said:

On another note, Ben Affleck put this out today on all his social media...

Oh my goodness, with Affleck and Geoff Johns controlling the movie, that fight scenes are going to be amazing.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Jediknight

[gator12]

On 8/25/2016 at 3:09 PM, Trini said:

I think that because these characters are so 'random' it's probably better to have them all in one ensemble film rather than gamble on 4 or 5 individual films.  ::shrug::

---

On a different note -- despite Suicide Squad getting panned by critics, it actually did well financially, right? I'm no expert on Hollywood accounting, but it seems to have made back it's budget, and is in the Top Ten movies of the 2016 (so far).

THR said it needs to make $750-$800 million to break even http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/suicide-squads-secret-drama-rushed-916693

I think its just under $700 million right now. 

[Matt K]

On 8/25/2016 at 3:09 PM, Trini said:

On a different note -- despite Suicide Squad getting panned by critics, it actually did well financially, right? I'm no expert on Hollywood accounting, but it seems to have made back it's budget, and is in the Top Ten movies of the 2016 (so far).

While there is still time for it to improve, it is doing poorly for what WB was hoping to make (but probably not a bomb in the usual way).  It's getting close to bringing in under $10 Mil a weekend and compared to Guardians, it's about $50 mil short domestically and $137 Mil short worldwide.  The only superhero movie that came out this year that it's doing better than is X-Men.  Its $80/$146 Mil (Domestic/Worldwide) short of Deadpool and significantly short of Cap 3's box office figures.  That said, it's doing better than Ant-man did, but considering the low key nature of Ant-Man versus the star studded cast of SS that's probably not a great comparison (Ant-Man's budget was also a decent amount less).  Also, it's doing almost as good as Man of Steel but considering that was a flop (although being Superman it should do better than SS) not sure what the end outlook is for SS.

[MarkHB]

10 hours ago, gator12 said:

THR said it needs to make $750-$800 million to break even

Even setting aside the fact that "break even" in Hollywood is a highly-malleable term depending on who's doing the asking (those books are cooked so thoroughly they make extra money on the backend selling them as recycled pulp), I've heard elsewhere that those numbers (which came from an unnamed "veteran" who may not even work for WB) are ludicrous, and WB would be very happy with anything over $600 million.  And keep in mind, this is a film that includes Katana (played by an actress who, as she put it, comes from a "very Japanese" family) which hasn't opened in Japan yet.

[Sakura12]

They could be happy with anything over 600 million, however they had a movie starring the most well known super heroes in Batman and Superman. Even people that never read a comic in their life knows who those two are. That movie should've have been in the billion dollar club with the Avengers or Civil War.  I know those are team up movies, but again they had the most well known super heroes. 

Marvel can take chances on lesser known heroes because they already showed audiences they can write great to decent movies. So people check out other movies they make. DCEU hasn't shown they can write a good movie yet. I don't think there is some conspiracy against DC, their movies are not that well written. I enjoyed Suicide Squad but storyline wise it was a mess.  

I think it was a mistake to try to catch up to Marvel. They should've taken the slower approach and set up their characters first. Make us care about them, then make them team up. It does seem like they are depending on comic book knowledge instead of telling a story. My sister who doesn't read comics thought Suicide Squad was okay, but she had no idea who most of the characters were and what their power set was. Except for Deadshot, no one else had any explanation of what they could do or why. Then she thought the end credit to set up the Justice League just negated the whole movie and wondered if Amanda Waller had files on those people, whey didn't she just call them to take care of Enchantress. 

If comic book fans are the only target they are after then they should expect less money because if they look at comic book sales, they are well below even the lowest rated televisions shows. If want your movie to make money you have to make is so everyone can enjoy it. Which is what Marvel is doing. If DC wants to do their own thing, they can. However they are just going to have to accept the critics panning their movies, because not all critics are comic book fans so they are watching the movie to see a story not see characters in costumes fight each other. 

[MarkHB]

The Justice League did a charity promo (note that Affleck has his Bruce Wayne hair going on):

[JessePinkman]

*rewinds a few dozen times for Jason Mamoa*

[MarkHB]

The Wall Street Journal has a long piece on the DC movie universe, including the first interview with Geoff Johns since he took over DC Films.  (Note: if you hit the paywall on clicking the link and aren't a WSJ subscriber, try plugging the article title into Google and getting to it that way...)

Quote

“Justice League” was already intended to be less depressing than “Batman v Superman,” but Messrs Berg and Johns worked with Mr. Snyder and screenwriter Chris Terrio to make changes after gauging fan reactions to the superhero fight.

“We accelerated the story to get to the hope and optimism a little faster,” said Mr. Berg....

“Justice League” will come out in November 2017, following next June’s “Wonder Woman.” Mr. Johns did a rewrite of the script for the superheroine’s origin story, working with director Patty Jenkins, and is writing a solo Batman movie to be directed by Mr. Affleck. It will feature Joe Manganiello, from “Magic Mike” and “True Blood,” as nemesis Deathstroke and could come as early as 2018, though Warner has not set a release date.

So Manganiello is confirmed!

[ribboninthesky1]

Manganiello as Deathstroke? Didn't see that coming.  Isn't he still recovering from some kind of surgery?

[Bruinsfan]

It's interesting to me that they're making Deathstroke a Batman villain—wasn't he created for and associated with the Teen Titans? Though it does definitely avoid the problem of comparison to past movies/portrayals.

[MarkHB]

Henry Cavill's new manager (who is also The Rock's manager and ex-wife) confirms a second solo Superman movie is in the works.

“Henry has a big appetite,” Garcia said. “We’ve been in a five-month period of time where he’s re-strategizing, acquiring property [for his production company Promethean], he’s filming [Justice League] now, he’s in development for the Superman standalone… he’s beginning to expand that world. It’s beautifully teed up. In a year from now, or two years from now, he’s going to be a force globally.”

I have to admit, she sounds like a wrestling manager.  The Grand Wizard smiles upon her....

[JessePinkman]

A force globally? Chris Evans can barely get any traction outside of Marvel and he's in movies people actually like.

[MarkHB]

New rumor: Alan Ritchson to play SHAZAM?  (Note: this refers to the hero formerly known as Captain Marvel, not the old wizard :) .

[Bruinsfan]

And there's that other shoe I was waiting for...

[MarkHB]

Henry does a nice thing:

Summer's Wonder Woman pose is adorable!

[BetterButter]

Warner Bros.’ ‘The Flash’ Movie Loses Another Director

[Trini]

Smeggin' frak!

[AimingforYoko]

Say what you will about the MCU, bland, cookie-cutter, Disney-fied, whatever, at least they had a plan. They didn't look at their competitor and say, "Boy, they're making a lot of money over there, we like money, let's do that too!"