S03.E17: Suicidal Tendencies

[paigow]

How do Felicity and Ray not have more trust issues?

More like how does ROY not have exponentially more trust issues with Oliver?? - being left for dead can do that to a guy - unless the voltage wiped his memory.

[BkWurm1]

More like how does ROY not have exponentially more trust issues with Oliver?? - being left for dead can do that to a guy - unless the voltage wiped his memory.

Doesn't Oliver do this to Roy a lot though?  Roy gets beat down and Oliver finishes the baddies off and then heads out.  I usually assume Roy wakes up and limps off while Oliver is handling things.   Poor Roy. 

[Password]

Oh my word poor Roy.

[Actionmage]

the Arrow defeated the Atom by outwitting him with a trick arrow.

 

There was no trick component to the arrows Ollie used on Barry/Flash or Ray ( I can't even call him The Atom, because...he just isn't.)  Oliver used regular arrows to point out Barry's lack of foresight when it comes to crime scenes/ potential crime scenes and it was either a regular arrow or  one of his darts, like how Roy would let Ollie know there was some news. The only "trick" arrows were the gloriously improv'd boxing glove arrow, the explosion arrows, the digital hacking one ( from the pilot) and the voice-activated recorder arrow.   

 

I'm nit-picking the word, not you, because Arrow isn't chockfull of gimmicky crap, like old school Batman was. I think, despite the success of Arrow, that superhero TV shows still face the initial general expectation of Bam! Biff! Pow!   After all the monetary success of theatrical movies and other TV projects, there are still mainstream media outlets that use those same old "sound effects" to open their piece or somewhere in their article.

 

Smallish question: Could they not get Thea/ Roy placed on the dance floor where we could see them for more than a nano-second?

 

Oh, and as much as I like Roy, is there a gif of him getting fried? And/or Ray getting thrown around by the explosion? TIA

[BkWurm1]

About the CGI, what didn't work for me wasn't so much the images but the movement of the suit in the air.  It felt jerky and like it was doing things not supported by the laws of physics. 

[benteen]

Wow, it took me an extra day to watch Arrow and I see this thread is absolutely packed with responses.

 

While there was some stuff I liked, I agree that this episode was messy as hell.  Ray at his most obnoxious and why am I not surprised that the Arrow writers think this kind of behavior is the best way to sell him to the audience?  Felicity, yeah...might be best to wait for the season to be over so she can have a fresh start next season.  I think this show and several of its characters could really benefit from putting some of these storylines behind them.

 

Definitely get her away from being the roving superhero love interest and let her develop her own REAL storylines.

 

I did like Floyd's arc and Cupid's return.  Nice to see Diggle out in the field, like he should have been earlier this season.  Loved the threat against Ray.  Nice to see Robert Culp.  And hey, actually loved Laurel running interference for Oliver.  Her cutting into the original press conference was kind of funny.  So that's something.

 

Seriously, who would want to be Starling City mayor now?  That Mayor was a dumbass anyway...she gave the Glades to Brick a few weeks ago.  Talk about failing the city.

 

BTW, was I the only one wondering if Oliver was going to pick up Roy after leaving Ray?  It looked like he forgot about him...

Edited March 27, 2015 by benteen

[paigow]

BTW, was I the only one wondering if Oliver was going to pick up Roy after leaving Ray?  It looked like he forgot about him...

That scene was enough to melt the heart of the most hardcore Roy Haters by .0001%. Nobody can not feel sorry for the guy.

[dtissagirl]

In a nutshell:

From http://twitter.com/GreanArruw/status/581251379186044928

[Chaser]

That is just so wrong :-(

 

And at the same time, so funny LOL

[allonsyalice]

Something told me to watch this episode. I ship the heck out of Digg and Lyla and think little baby Sara is the cutest thing, so seeing them together+a wedding was probably it.
What did I get? disappointment. sadness. betrayal.
I loved Floyd Lawton and now I'm so done with this show 100%.

I mean, obviously there were some things I liked, but more things I didn't. Oh well.

[benteen]

This episode confirms that Lance really doesn't know Oliver is the Arrow, which I really find hard to believe.

 

I did laugh at the Mayor yelling at both Quintin and Laurel.  Even she's sick of the Lance family drama!

[Rina99]

OK, I'm a little confused about all the Ray Palmer hate happening. Let's take a step back....Oliver was on a boat cheating on Laurel with Sara, got stuck on an island thinking Sara had died, fell in love with Shado, who died. Then came back, had many many smoldering looks and whatnot with Laurel again, then that didn't work, then Sara's back so he's deeply DEEPLY in love with her AGAIN (and let's not forget the little side trip of sleeping with Isabel folks), then Sara dies AGAIN and suddenly I'm supposed to accept he's now totally in love with Felicity and has been all along? Sara hasn't been dead THAT long for him to suddenly be all....oh, Felicity, I do love you, I hadn't recognised until now. Felicity's been in love with him for yonks so I stand up and APPLAUD her finally getting over Oliver and finding love. So I am truly, utterly perplexed at this outpouring of saying nay to Ray (yeah...I wrote that). Oh! Oh! And who the heck was that random woman he ran into when on The Flash? At the coffee shop?

Anyway....TV suspension of reality aside, I don't want Oliver with Felicity. I've liked Ray from the start and he's been into her from jump...no hesitation, no minced words...no LOVE AFFAIRS WITH THREE OTHER PEOPLE before finally "seeing the light". He gave her the respect and attention she so deserved and sorry (not sorry) but there is chemistry there. The writers got an A from me on that front. "'Bout damn time" is what I yelled when they finally hooked up.

And adding a little real life, every relationship has those initial bumps when trust can be tested, but the writers aren't trying to make him the bad guy. He recognised his mistake and apologised (and a little side rant, Felicity should have sat him down, and TOLD HIM EVERYTHING instead of high level summaries which left him to draw his own conclusions rather easily, but that's "TV drama"for you). And frankly, I don't see why this is HIS fault. Felicity also didn't tell Oliver about Ray wanting to save the city. Seems like the theme of not talking continues, as if Ray knew Oliver's quest from the beginning and vice versa, this whole episode could have centered on Diggle and Lyla and their Suicide Squad, which I immensely enjoyed ("I take it back....I want to die").

So no, I will not jump on the Ray Palmer hatred bandwagon. He's does one thing wrong (I can't think of another thing he's done other than be clueless to what is going on) and it's to the wolves he goes, whereas Oliver's been stringing Felicity along for THREE SEASONS and suddenly I'm supposed to support his turn of heart? No I say. I still love Oliver, Oliver with tight pants on, Oliver shirtless, Oliver being all sexy sword swiping...but that doesn't mean I think he deserves Felicity. She deserves to be with someone who loved her from jump, and I for one hope that the writers make them a true force. Maybe that random woman from The Flash coffee shop will be explained and Oliver will have yet another little trip down love's lane and leave Felicity to enjoy hers.

 

I agree with you on the bolded parts, and that's exactly why I still can't accept this sudden "love" that Oliver has for Felicity, to the point that it has completely made the two of them pretty unwatchable on screen.  But this:

 

whereas Oliver's been stringing Felicity along for THREE SEASONS

 

 

Say what now?  From my viewpoint, Felicity kind of had a crush on Oliver for the first two seasons, whereas he viewed her as a friend.  I can in no way, shape, or form see where he ever led he on in season 1 or 2.

 

As far as Oliver's dating life, I feel that his so-called whorish behavior since leaving the island has been greatly exaggerated.  And if the writers hadn't done such a piss-poor job with his character for most of the season, his dating pattern since he left the island does tend to show why he's ended up in the head space that he's in.  The only one-night stand was Isabelle, the rest he tried in his own messed up way to have a relationship with, and they all failed.  And then Sara, the one he would think most capable of taking care of herself, actually died.  Instead of allowing us to explore this, all we got was a season of seemingly reckless Oliver, and the emotions stirred were simply a barrier in this stupid fucking love crap they've forced into the Oliver/Felicity relationship that's just keeping him from being her boyfriend, and OMG why doesn't he just get over it? 

Edited March 27, 2015 by Rina99

[TanyaKay]

I don't know, but he clearly did his homework on her. How would he know she was training with Ted? Did he read her emails? Have her followed? Track her like he tracked Felicity?

 

Looks like Ray Palmer is the creepiest creep to creep out. He is pinging and tracking every woman in Starling City aged between 21-39 because he is rich and creepy and stalkery.

[dtissagirl]

Is there a bug on Sara's body as well? Maybe that's how he heard Quentin calling Laurel "Black Canary".

Edited March 27, 2015 by dancingnancy

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Wow, it took me an extra day to watch Arrow and I see this thread is absolutely packed with responses.

Geez, you mean like EVERY week?  This might be my favorite show on television but I find it almost impossible to discuss online since it is, apparently, every living person's favorite show on television.  Very active boards,is what I'm saying.

[steelyis]

Is he really a douche in the comics?

 

 

- Became barbarian warlord for a time in the 80s

 

- Regressed physically to teenage years in the 90s and screwed up the Teen Titans (though one of the characters from his version, an energy girl named Argent, did get a number of fans and remained a member when the Titans we know and love came back)

 

- Ex-wife was behind the Identity Crisis plotline, in which she killed the wife of Justice League member, former Atom colleague, and all-around fun hero Elongated Man because Ray drove her insane.  At least, that was her excuse.

 

So, yes.  He's a douche.

 

 

I've always found him bland like most white, male, heterosexual comic book characters with simple, but horrific in their implications, super powers from the silver age. Ray would sometimes delve into asshole behavior, especially when his book's creative team wanted to make him hip, or grim and gritty. James Robinson really layered douche on Ray during Cry For Justice. Generally, he's been the League's boring, go-to science guy for the last fifteen, twenty years. He is kind of a douche in the New 52, though.

 

 

Question for comic readers. What is actually Atom's super power? I always thought Atom was the super hero who was able to adjust his body size, all the way to the very small. But in this show Atom is like Iron Man-lite.

 

 

Who knows why they chose to turn Ray into Tony Stark's taller, got his engineering degree out of a Cracker Jack box, doppelganger?

 

Ordinarily I would say the show made Atom into a dumb shit version of Iron Man so Oliver stood a chance in hell of beating him.

 

Because there's no way Oliver could defeat a guy who can shrink to the size of an ant, crawl up your nose and grow inside your sinus until you're in so much pain you would pray for death. Or shrink with a dose of fast acting sedative and carry it directly to your blood stream, or step on a blood vessel in your head and give you a massive stroke, or... you get my point. All without you having a chance to defend yourself because Atom might as well be invisible.

 

I would say that—ordinarily—but considering Arrow cannot bare to have Oliver massively outclassed by people who should take his lunch money, I think they'd find a way for Oliver to train his body to fight off microscopic enemies with the world's tiniest bow and arrows.

 

And what the hell was Oliver talking about when he said Ray didn't have the training? First, what the fuck does Oliver know about Ray's suit's capabilities? Secondly, who needs training when your battle suit can take out a tank battalion?

 

Better question: why is Arrow being so stupid lately?

[quarks]

Screentime totals again:

 

« suicidal tendencies »
Oliver: 15mins, 37secs
Laurel: 4mins, 29secs
Diggle: 18mins, 9secs
Thea: 1min, 16secs
Felicity: 12mins, 24secs
Roy: 5mins, 1sec
Malcolm: 0mins, 0secs
Quentin: 1min, 1sec

 

 

« season totals (so far) »
Oliver: 6hours, 6mins, 46secs
Laurel: 2hours, 21mins, 4secs
Diggle: 2hours, 26mins, 44secs
Thea: 1hour, 35mins, 36secs
Felicity: 2hours, 59mins, 58secs
Roy: 2hours, 14mins, 33secs
Malcolm: 56mins, 31secs
Quentin: 38mins, 37secs

 

More Quentin, please?  These numbers hurt me.

 

Source: http://forgingfire.tumblr.com/

Edited March 27, 2015 by quarks

[Delphi]

In season two the finale, you could see no way he lead her on after he told her that Slade didn't take the woman he loved? That taking Laurel was taking the wrong woman?

[BkWurm1]

Question for comic readers. What is actually Atom's super power? I always thought Atom was the super hero who was able to adjust his body size, all the way to the very small. But in this show Atom is like Iron Man-lite.

 

I'm sure they will explore his shrinking abilities in the spin off.  Got to save something. 

[Rina99]

In season two the finale, you could see no way he lead her on after he told her that Slade didn't take the woman he loved? That taking Laurel was taking the wrong woman?

 

You mean the set-up where they knew Slade had bugged the mansion, so he deliberately made sure that Slade was led to believe Felicity was his number one, and she willingly went along with it, and helped bring down Slade?  

 

Really?  A very heroic moment for someone who is not a fighter is reduced to her being "misled" by Oliver?  I can't even.

[bmoore4026]

Better question: why is Arrow being so stupid lately?

 

Padding out the series until the season finale and, hopefully, a rematch with Ra's Al Ghul?

[Hook75]

Like I really needed more reasons to hate Ray. Why can't he just GO AWAY??????????????

 

Felicity is losing me.

 

So now Oliver is propping F&R? WTFever.

 

BR's "acting" may be the worse thing on TV.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Hook75

[tennisgurl]

The first time I watched the Felcity/Ray make-up-make-out scene, I was grossed out by how Felicity had to be the one to apologize, when Ray is the one who never tells her freaking anything. Second time, I just kept wondering if Roy was still laying in the mud, twitching, with possible severe injuries, and no one caring. Does Felicity know he electrocuted one of her friends, for the terrible crime of being around the Arrow? Does he feel bad? Would she care?

 

Probably not. But Ray is just so gosh darn awesome! 

[Chaser]

After much painful thought, I realized that they were trying to show how much stronger the Oliver and Felicity relationship is compared to the R/F. But by doing that they highlighted the WTF aspect of R/F, which in turn makes Felicity look bad because no one understands what she is doing with this guy.

 

I doubt Felicity knew the full extent of the attack on Oliver and Roy. Oliver probably downplayed it because he wanted to paint Ray in a good light for Felicity. It's so stupid. 

[kismet]

After much painful thought, I realized that they were trying to show how much stronger the Oliver and Felicity relationship is compared to the R/F. But by doing that they highlighted the WTF aspect of R/F, which in turn makes Felicity look bad because no one understands what she is doing with this guy.

 

I doubt Felicity knew the full extent of the attack on Oliver and Roy. Oliver probably downplayed it because he wanted to paint Ray in a good light for Felicity. It's so stupid. 

If this is the case, I would prefer the EPs & public line regarding R/F be more along the lines of they have something their working on, no relationship is perfect. But rather all you hear in the press is how R/F is the perfect, healthy, viable relationship. That Felicity is really starting to love Ray. That Ray is healthier than Oliver. Its just utter BS. Do what you want on the show. but if you're selling a relationship as one thing & showing it as something different at least have the courtesy to not string me along in interviews.

Edited March 27, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

You mean the set-up where they knew Slade had bugged the mansion, so he deliberately made sure that Slade was led to believe Felicity was his number one, and she willingly went along with it, and helped bring down Slade?  

 

Really?  A very heroic moment for someone who is not a fighter is reduced to her being "misled" by Oliver?  I can't even.

I'm sure it's the I love you part where she was misled because until he put the syringe in her hand, she didn't know it was a fake out, but actually I agree with you, it wasn't a fake out because Oliver did really love her, he just was too Oliver to say so until the following season opener. 

 

He's not misleading her now.  He seems to take great care in reminding her and all the rest of us why they aren't together.  Last week Felicity got to do it, this week Oliver.  I wonder who will do it next week?

Edited March 27, 2015 by BkWurm1

[rue721]

I don't think I'll watch this episode. Roy is lured into a trap because he wants to help people in trouble, and he's electrocuted and left for dead? And then that's it, the last shot of him in the episode is of his unconscious body, left face down in a puddle?

 

Frankly, I just don't want to see Roy get hurt and abandoned like that. It doesn't sound entertaining or exciting or enjoyable, it just sounds sad and disturbing as hell. I hope that next week, Roy is 1. not dead. 2. is allowed to have some reaction onscreen to what happened. Because that is scary and horrible, and how he got into "vigilantism" in the first place was because of how much it meant to him that the Arrow tried to save him when he was just some nobody in trouble.

[Password]

MG was saying on tumblr that that was a serious oversight. Like how? Oliver just needed to walk towards Roy after he dropped the mic.

[InsertWordHere]

MG was saying on tumblr that that was a serious oversight. Like how? Oliver just needed to walk towards Roy after he dropped the mic.

I'm guessing a shot of him parkouring out of there got left on the cutting room floor.

[looptab]

What if she was thanking him for proving to Ray that she was right about trusting that Oliver was not a killer?  

Yeah, That's how I interpreted it. She thanked him for being the person she knows he is.

 

 

And what the hell was Oliver talking about when he said Ray didn't have the training? First, what the fuck does Oliver know about Ray's suit's capabilities? Secondly, who needs training when your battle suit can take out a tank battalion?

 

Yes, technically for all Oliver knows, Ray could have had all sorts of training. It's the latest example of the writing overseeing that not all the characters have all the information the audience does. Let's assume Felicity told him, ahah.

[tv echo]

Some MG responses about this episode at http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

geekychicrules asked:
After having Diggle sidelined for the majority of the season his fans were so happy we were finally getting an episode that showcased so much of what we love about him and not we feel like fools. I really hope better things are in store for him in season four because he deserves it.

I agree.

arrowfan2 asked:
Another Mayor died?!? God why?? I liked this one!!!

I liked her, too.  Being Mayor of Starling City is kind of a shitty job.

olicitystuff asked:
What happened to Roy after the Arrow/ATOM fight ?! He is unconscious after being electrocuted and Oliver just walked away, leaving him !

Yeah.  That was our bad.

skyishtar asked:
When Ray and Oliver fought Roy got electrocuted and thrown against a fence, Oliver then beat Ray and walked away, What happened to Roy? Is he okay? We don't see him again in the episode.

Yeah.  We fucked up.

marysolramirez4 asked:
First of all love the show and the cast!! But did we just forget about Roy in yesterday's episode? I mean he was electrocuted. P.S. you're awesome Marc

Yeah.  That Roy moment wasn’t our finest hour.  Thanks for the kind words and for watching.

hateonmehater asked:
I need to know...why did Oliver leave an electrocuted Roy on the floor after the ArrowxAtom fight?

We fucked up.

Edited March 27, 2015 by tv echo

[TrueMyth]

There has been an odd trend of not showing things that need to be shown in the back half of this season.  1) We have no on-screen confirmation about what happened to Ted Grant, 2) Roy, see above, 3) All those assassins who MG assures us are just fine, but we saw Oliver fire a flaming arrow into one and him roll down the hill in immolation, to say nothing of Dig shooting them up, 4) That Olicity sex scene...

 

Okay, so number 4 is wishful thinking, but the rest are important in a show about a live-valuing hero.  If this is how cavalier he's become, he should be killing Merlyn for Thea.  

[KirkB]

The insisting no assassins died with all the bullets and arrows to the chests, not to mention fire, on the way to Nanda Parbat is ridiculous considering they're the ones who did the scene that way. If they wanted the audience to know "Hey, he's still not killing!" Oliver could have been explicitly using tranq arrows and Diggle knock out darts but they didn't go that route. Oliver's no kill policy is very conditional anyway. Sure, he's not running around casually offing people like he did in the first season, but if Felicity or Diggle are threatened and the only thing he can do is kill someone to save them we all know he's going to do it.

[Samx]

This episode was just MEH. I watched on DVR and half the time forgot to even fast forward through commercials because I just wasn't invested. I'm not invested in Ray at all, especially now that he's being spun off. I can't stand Cupid, thought her episode was the worst of ALL TIME, and couldn't stand her in this ep. It should've been her on the exploding building (although since we don't see Deadshot's body, I am willing to believe that they can bring him back at some point and I hope they do). 

 

For the first time, I'm actually intrigued by Laurel's arc. Being trained by Nyssa? That could be great. Not sure if KC has the action chops to pull off being a League(ish)-trained fighter but I'm sure they'll have a good stunt person for her. And I am NOT a Laurel fan so for me to take an interest in her means the story is really dragging. Oy.

[Menrva]

Finally watched it and oh my god, was that craptastic. Count me as one who actually liked Laurel this episode. Because my hate for her has been eclipsed by my utter loathing for Ray. What an arrogant, smug, smarmy jackass. And to see Felicity crawling back to him, apologizing…ugh, it turned my stomach. How fucking dare he talk down to her like that? And Oliver, for heaven's sake, when will it occur to you to ask what Felicity actually wants? Just because you were trapped in hell for five years and longed for a return to normalcy, doesn't mean that's everyone else's default position. Why in the world would Felicity be helping Oliver, putting her life in jeopardy over and over again if all she wanted was a nice boring life? 

It was nice to see Diggle and Lyla together; too bad it was in service of a dreadful storyline. It might actually be a novel plot to have an honest politician for once! I was kind of hoping Cupid would be the one to get killed off; she was so goddamned annoying. Poor Deadshot. He'll be missed.

One other observation: why the hell was Cutter wearing a crop top again? Could they not afford the body armor? And Felicity's belly-baring outfit? Least appropriate workplace attire I've ever seen. Will no one think of those poor, uncovered midsections?

Overall, just a wretched, miserable waste of time. Wish I'd decided to clean the toilets after all.

ETA: I neglected to mention how bad the CGI was. Phony Stark indeed. Energy pulses from hands? Check. Zooming around the city in a super suit? Check. Heads-up display inside helmet? Check. All he needed was an AI with a British accent helping him identify Oliver Queen. I kind of wish Marvel would sue them for not only ripping off Iron Man, but doing it badly.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Menrva

[jay741982]

There has been an odd trend of not showing things that need to be shown in the back half of this season.  1) We have no on-screen confirmation about what happened to Ted Grant, 2) Roy, see above, 3) All those assassins who MG assures us are just fine, but we saw Oliver fire a flaming arrow into one and him roll down the hill in immolation, to say nothing of Dig shooting them up, 4) That Olicity sex scene...

 

Okay, so number 4 is wishful thinking, but the rest are important in a show about a live-valuing hero.  If this is how cavalier he's become, he should be killing Merlyn for Thea.

Number 4 COULD Happen In 320

[wonderwall]

Did they explain who the Shado look a like was in this episode? I tend to skip over flashbacks. 

[apinknightmare]

Did they explain who the Shado look a like was in this episode? I tend to skip over flashbacks. 

 

No, there weren't any HK flashbacks in this ep. 

 

Edited March 27, 2015 by apinknightmare

[DrSpaceman10]

Did they explain who the Shado look a like was in this episode? I tend to skip over flashbacks. 

 

No, this episode had Deadshot's flashbacks. 

[wonderwall]

Did I tune out of this episode so much that I didn't even notice? LMAO Nice

 

Thanks for responding :)

Edited March 27, 2015 by wonderwall

[Ang]

Oh my, the Poor Roy posts and MG's responses about the ones he's gotten on Tumblr are killing me! CH's delivery of "...and reckless" wins the show. And I have to throw in yet another note of appreciation for Diggle threatening Ray.

I appreciated the poster above who came to the defense of Ray...but I'm piling on here. I'm pro-Olicity, but I am (or have been...) first and foremost pro-Felicity. I didn't hate Ray, defended him occasionally, supported Felicity dating him, etc. but this episode may have destroyed him for me.

I assume Ray started the wedding with a very lovely and meaningful speech that they just didn't bother to show. It had better have been a heckuva speech to offset those self-centered, moment-killing jokes, but they left room for that so I couls have gotten past it.

Where they lost me, and where I left the Ray Palmer train for good, was where he said, "I have been open with you from the very beginning." WHAT??!? It's been said, but:

1. Ray neglects to introduce himself in the store when he first meets Felicity.

2. Ray, knowing who she is, doesn't tell her his plans wrt her former employer.

3. Ray asks her to recover data without telling her his intentions for that data.

4. Ray recruits her to secure the acquisition of a mine without filling her in on the specifics of why he needs it.

5. Ray waits weeks after ditching her mid-kiss to tell her about Anna and the crusade she's already been unknowingly supporting.

6. Ray finishes the suit and starts testing it within, at best, hours of starting a physical relationship with Felicity. Despite the fact that, not only does their relationship progress, she actively participates in working on tech for the suit with/for him, he keeps her completely in the dark about the status of the suit and his activities with it. Again, for weeks.

Either that line was inexcusably poor writing, in which case why do I watch this show? Or Ray is a massive hypocrite. I'm very curious which people think it was. With how little Felicity reacted to the information and what a non-issue it was, I'm guessing bad writing. Grrrr.

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, I am an Olicity shipper, but there were times when I could have liked Ray. In between him dialing down his stalker tendencies, and him getting the suit, I thought he was ok. Not a great character, and I didn't like how much screen time he got, or his stalker ways, but he was all right. Now? I just want him gone.

 

Ray is part of this bizarre phenomenon that has been happening all over television the last few years, but this season in particular. A supporting or minor character, or someone totally new, pops onto an established show, and suddenly takes over, almost completely and without warning. Frequently an annoying, unlikable character, the show has to bend over backwards to support this new main character, no matter how forced it is. Established, beloved characters are written out of character or ignored, all in the favor of this new character. But the creators clearly adore this character, give them TONS of screen time, talk them up in interviews, and are utterly baffled by the negative reaction to their favorite character. They usually deny any problem with the character, and blame the "haters" and "the shippers." Somehow, it always seems to come down to shipping, don't know why. So then the fans are stuck with this awful character, a show they don't recognize as their own, and creatives who insult them for having opinions. What we need to do, is get all these pets in their own spin-off, so the creatives can get together and orgasm over them, and we can have our show back! 

[kismet]

Oh my, the Poor Roy posts and MG's responses about the ones he's gotten on Tumblr are killing me! CH's delivery of "...and reckless" wins the show. And I have to throw in yet another note of appreciation for Diggle threatening Ray.

I appreciated the poster above who came to the defense of Ray...but I'm piling on here. I'm pro-Olicity, but I am (or have been...) first and foremost pro-Felicity. I didn't hate Ray, defended him occasionally, supported Felicity dating him, etc. but this episode may have destroyed him for me.

I assume Ray started the wedding with a very lovely and meaningful speech that they just didn't bother to show. It had better have been a heckuva speech to offset those self-centered, moment-killing jokes, but they left room for that so I couls have gotten past it.

Where they lost me, and where I left the Ray Palmer train for good, was where he said, "I have been open with you from the very beginning." WHAT??!? It's been said, but:

1. Ray neglects to introduce himself in the store when he first meets Felicity.

2. Ray, knowing who she is, doesn't tell her his plans wrt her former employer.

3. Ray asks her to recover data without telling her his intentions for that data.

4. Ray recruits her to secure the acquisition of a mine without filling her in on the specifics of why he needs it.

5. Ray waits weeks after ditching her mid-kiss to tell her about Anna and the crusade she's already been unknowingly supporting.

6. Ray finishes the suit and starts testing it within, at best, hours of starting a physical relationship with Felicity. Despite the fact that, not only does their relationship progress, she actively participates in working on tech for the suit with/for him, he keeps her completely in the dark about the status of the suit and his activities with it. Again, for weeks.

Either that line was inexcusably poor writing, in which case why do I watch this show? Or Ray is a massive hypocrite. I'm very curious which people think it was. With how little Felicity reacted to the information and what a non-issue it was, I'm guessing bad writing. Grrrr.

Thank you for the detailed list! I have truly tried to like Ray or at least understand his purpose on the show. But this episode really had me questioning what it was all for and at what cost to how I view Felicity? First Cooper and now Ray, I'm truly beginning to question her choices in men.They all seem like selfish users and yet she just continues to think she needs to apologize for their over-reactions & misbehaviors. She did nothing that required her to apologize first to him. We've talked about residual issues from her father leaving, but maybe we are only scratching the surface of what they are. Plz don't tell me that we'll finally get OQ emotionally healthy enough to pursue a relationship, only to have Felicity fall to her psychological demons. Oh but I feel the torture will never end with these arrow writers. I mean the way Ray treated her was just so awful from beginning to end once you peel away his shiny surface. I nearly choked when OQ said that Ray clearly cares about FS, because I have never seen any evidence of that. Besides use her to help him achieve his suit, what has he done that proves he truly cares about her beyond just her mind? And then I laughed when only a few minutes later it was proven by RP himself just how little he cares about FS. At his first opportunity to show he truly cares about her and not just her abilities, the first thing he does is push her away and claim her untrustworthy, that's not really caring about somebody. He could have offered to meet with OQ and discuss his activities, which would have shown that even if he didn't agree with FS or was maybe a little hurt by his perceived "betrayal" he still cared enough about her to try understand her POV. That's what OQ did. It takes a lot of pride swallowing to walk into your former family's company and speak to the current boyfriend of the woman you love, who is also actively funding a task force to apprehend you. I mean if that's not putting your cared about interests before your own, Im not sure what is. There is almost too much evidence to caulk it all up to bad writing. At some point the character has to be given agency for some of those decisions. Hypocritical is one of nicer adjectives that could be used for him. But what I don't understand is why they decide for this episode for everything to come apart at the seams. In that regard, the writing did seem very heavy handed. So maybe its a combination. Maybe they laid nuggets either way so that they could pursue whatever path they wanted to go down pending the possibility of a spin-off. Or maybe they just try to hard to be epic and game-changing.

Edited March 27, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

I'm willing to put down real money that the spinoff is going to be a huge fail.  If it actually makes it to a real episode 1 I will eat my hat.  It's fine for Guggie to insist everyone loves/will love Ray, but the CW would have to put real money on that.  Routh, Garber, Wentworth Miller, and that stupid Heat guy don't come cheap.  And frankly, when it fails the only one I'll feel all that bad for is Caity Lotz.  (I like Garber, too, but he'll be just fine.)

[BkWurm1]

What if she was thanking him for proving to Ray that she was right about trusting that Oliver was not a killer? 

 

Yeah, That's how I interpreted it. She thanked him for being the person she knows he is.

 

No, that's not what I was getting at.  I don't thing she was thanking Oliver for being the person she knows he is because that was never in question.  At no part did she express concern that Oliver had gone back to his killing ways.  I think she was thanking Oliver for convincing Ray to trust her judgment. 

[statsgirl]

Where they lost me, and where I left the Ray Palmer train for good, was where he said, "I have been open with you from the very beginning." WHAT??!? It's been said, but:

I totally and completely agree with all of your points.

 

And then on top of that, Felicity feels that she is the one who has to go to Ray, and she is the one who has to apologize to him.  The irony, that she stood up to Oliver all this time, but starts moving into doormat territory for Ray.

 

 I think she was thanking Oliver for convincing Ray to trust her judgment. 

I agree. And that says volumes about Ray and her relationship with him, or rather his with her.

[CabotCove]

Regarding the Atom/Arrow fight - yeah, Ray came off cocky and arrogant there, which was an odd choice for a couple of reasons, but what was interesting was that throughout the episode, Oliver was the one coming off as more heroic and mentally stable

 

Well he is after all the hero of the show. And I don't mind that it happen that way, Oliver really need this boost, and It may likely help Ray too, who has been coined a  "Gary stu", to show that he has flaws (he did before though) and he isn't taking over Oliver's show. Oliver is also still the more experienced of the vigilantes, he even showed up Barry in his own show.  I agree on what you said about Ray and honesty, he had his moments were he wasn't honest with Felicity , Im not sure why Felicity didnt call him out on it, in this episode about the suit. In any case Its a conversation they will need to have about everything. And while I agree with a someone who pointed out earlier than you need honesty in a relationship, yes you do but Rome was not build in a day and rough patches can happen in  relationships Imo.

 

Can someone ask Felicity to stop bringing up Ray. No one cares. OK, I don't care. But no one cares.

 

STOP making GENERALIZED statements about a whole group of people. 

 

 

We decided that the best scene was Laurel and Ray. It was the first time Ray had even a spark of chemistry with anyone in Arrow. They played off each other really well. Their verbal sparring was actually believable which is saying a lot for either of them.

 

Subjective.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell

[paigow]

It's fine for Guggie to insist everyone loves/will love Ray,

You trying to say that Everybody Does Not Love Raymond?

[apinknightmare]

So, how does Ray plan on going around vigilante-ing? Is he going to strike criminals with 10,000 volts like he did Roy? Because it seems a tad hypocritical to me to go after a vigilante who is killing people by, you know, trying to kill him, and not even hitting him but his lil sidekick who didn't even do anything wrong (that time). 

Edited March 28, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Ray doesn't think. And he doesn't trust someone if she's a woman.  But he will tell you he wants a partner if it will help him get into your pants.

 

I can see the benefit of starting with a character who has a long way to go to become a hero, but not on this show, please.