Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[GeeGolly]

Yeah, I'd go with this interpretation. I never had any social interchange with anyone besides my family either, and when I finally did beginning at age 18, it was a total revelation to me. Really a shock. I was terrible at it, too.

Hey Churchie, can I ask how old you are?

[3girlsforus]

I am the one posted about David's mentioning that Priscilla chose to be a mom. I agree that in their culture, she didn't really have a choice. But I still think it's interesting that he said it, and seemed sincere. Maybe he just meant he's glad she didn't leave the cult to have a career.

 

 

I didn't mean my comment as a criticism of you or even of David. I do think he is sincere. He might even believe that she had a choice. I wonder if Priscilla believes she had a choice. It is good that David seems sincere about being grateful. Whether she had a choice or not, having a husband who appreciates her is a good thing.

[Fuzzysox]

Or (and this is what I think) Pa Keller knew of Josh's 'bad habit' somehow and wanted to protect his next daughter from having to go through the same thing.  

Sin in the camp, sin in the camp was a real thing that they swept under the carpet. 

[Tabbygirl521]

I didn't mean my comment as a criticism of you or even of David. I do think he is sincere. He might even believe that she had a choice. I wonder if Priscilla believes she had a choice. It is good that David seems sincere about being grateful. Whether she had a choice or not, having a husband who appreciates her is a good thing.

This is pretty much what I concluded from David's statement, too. :) I didn't take your post as criticism, BTW.

[Defrauder]

So Priscilla and crew make a huge deal out of 'guarding one's heart' for the one you are to marry - because if you don't you won't have a whole heart to give - pieces of it will have been given away.

 

How then do they explain having multiple children?  Do they love the second one any less because they loved the first one?  What about the tenth?  Has the love they have felt for their previous children ripped away pieces of their heart so it keeps getting less and less?  I wouldn't think so!

 

They have to completely guard one's heart for the ONE person they will eventually marry yet they can have 20 kids and that love somehow doesn't take pieces of their heart?  So why can't they see that they can actually have previous relationships before marriage and still have a heart whole enough to love the person they marry?

[louannems]

In David's defense I believe he meant 'dating his mom and sisters' in the sense of just going out to eat with them.  That was David's dating experience and to him that is what dating is - just going out to eat.  Poor innocent David, trapped in a loveless marriage, unless you believe love is pure agony and sacrifice.  Well could be worse I guess, at least he knew that he HAD to court someone other than his mom or sisters.  He does appear happy, as only a brainwashed hostage can be.  Well I can't imagine living with Priscilla every day.  She's so over the top and seems to be in a constant state of religious ecstasy which I'm sure is the only ecstasy she's ever known so that's all she's got, but there is wayyyy something off there.  

Looks like we were thinking the same thing at the same time.

This This This 1000k times!!!

[3girlsforus]

I think the 'guarding your heart' mantra is a way Gothard parents explain to their kids why all relationships should be decided by the great and powerful dad. The parents convince the kids they are guarding their heart for their husband but really the parents guarding their spouse choice from any potential competition. 

[JenCarroll]

Welcome to the club. I lost mine when I *gasp* allowed my daughters to go to college!! Shame on me.

We should all turn our MOTY awards over to Michelle, I guess. (Or, alternatively, we could bonk her over the head with them.)

;-)

[Churchhoney]

Good point, and yet with further thought, wouldn't you then be so depressed to believe the supreme being in charge of the entire creation was so petty as to want humans to embrace such a shallow concept of marriage?

 

Well, in a world of arranged marriages -- and that's the kind of world they live in -- it doesn't seem shallow at all to me. Other marriages in such world are made for money and power or snobbery or to keep from mixing with people from the next town over. A marriage made for God's purposes would have a lot more meaning than that.... And I would bet that they see God's purposes for the marriage as being something bigger than themselves and something that will be revealed down the line. Not that it will turn out that way necessarily, but I kind of think that, if you truly believe that, it's possible that it might. The mind can be a pretty wondrous thing sometimes.

 

And, honestly, I don't really think that most of our reasons for marrying are so deep, anyway. We like somebody, we're sexually attracted, everybody else gets married so why wouldn't we, we want kids, this person has good earning capacity and it'll be nice to have two incomes and the slight tax advantage, we like the person's jokes. All those things are fine, but I don't see that they're really less shallow than marrying because God has a purpose for your doing so. How many people in any situation get married for some profound reason or envision their union as of much deeper value to them or to the world than just getting various itches scratched and doing what's habitual in an mostly-married society? I truly don't think it's all that many. Heck, I've known people who seem to be sincere in saying they're marrying because they're "soulmates" and the next thing you know they're dissing each other at a dinner out as if they were rival gang members. So the marriage of souls thing can turn out to be kind of shallow too.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Tabbygirl521]

I don't have a problem with people marrying because they feel it's God's purpose for them IF they are not being unduly influenced by parents, etc. For example, with Priscilla, it sounds like she was basically forced to marry the first guy who looked at her. A guy who had his own reservations and wanted to wait until HE felt God was speaking to him. But both were forced by their parents to marry when neither was ready. Or perhaps would never BE ready.

I certainly can understand having religious convictions and wanting a mate with the same values and life goals. But i sure wish that the authority figures in these cults believed in teaching their children how to make their own assessments when choosing a partner - especially since there is no way out if things go south.

[Churchhoney]

Hey Churchie, can I ask how old you are?

 

Rapidly approaching "eligible for Medicare."

I don't have a problem with people marrying because they feel it's God's purpose for them IF they are not being unduly influenced by parents, etc. For example, with Priscilla, it sounds like she was basically forced to marry the first guy who looked at her. A guy who had his own reservations and wanted to wait until HE felt God was speaking to him. But both were forced by their parents to marry when neither was ready. Or perhaps would never BE ready.

I certainly can understand having religious convictions and wanting a mate with the same values and life goals. But i sure wish that the authority figures in these cults believed in teaching their children how to make their own assessments when choosing a partner - especially since there is no way out if things go south.

 

Totally agree. My feeling about Priscilla and David, though, is that the "God wants us married" thing, could, maybe, kinda, sorta possibly help them make the best out of the bad situation in which they were forced into the marriage by others. The best thing, obviously, would be if that had never been done. And, to me anyway, the second best thing would be for them to have walked out when it did and gone on to live lives they chose. But I don't think they're people who would do that. So they'll have to make the best of a bad job, one way or another, I expect.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Julia]

Well, in a world of arranged marriages -- and that's the kind of world they live in -- it doesn't seem shallow at all to me. Other marriages in such world are made for money and power or snobbery or to keep from mixing with people from the next town over. A marriage made for God's purposes would have a lot more meaning than that.... 

 

I suspect that in almost all those cases the reason given is that the marriage is God's purpose, for everything from continuing a community or a tradition threatened by encroaching modernity to the king showing he's God's own BSD by getting the first crack at the bride. And also that you only have to go back as far as Jane Austen to see us being far less romantic about demanding anything more than reasonably respectable survival as all the justification for marriage they needed.

[Churchhoney]

And pieces of are given away any time you have any kind of relationship with a human of opposite gender. Conversely, hearts do not fracture into pieces when loving dozens of children. It's Duggar math.

 

Hey, maybe this explains Jill's problems with fractions. And James' problem with multiplication.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Churchhoney

[FakeJoshDuggar]

On the other hand, those who go too far with the "love is an emotion" definition are prone to fall head over heels in love with someone else after marriage, too, and then they often walk off, leaving a spouse to curse and struggle. A good friend of mine recently gave me the old "I have a right to be happy, don't I?" thing and, honestly, at this particular point in time, I don't really think she does. Or at least I don't think her right is nearly strong enough to outrank other current considerations, although she's pretty certain that it is, based solely on the strength of her love emotion.

Anyway, it seems pretty clear to me that the definition of love that works best for general human happiness is somewhere in between a wholehearted "love is an emotion" and the Wallers' scary and equally absolutist view.

I don't think Prissy would ever walk out on David or her kids. But to never live a life that has never felt real, emotional love is a horrible existence.

[Julia]

I don't think Prissy would ever walk out on David or her kids. But to never live a life that has never felt real, emotional love is a horrible existence.

 

k, so, here's my theory. I think there's a valid distinction between love, which is absolutely an emotion and which the bible actually talks about kind of a lot, and in love, which our society mistakes for it a lot. There's a big hormonal payoff to in love, with starry eyes and excitement and the first fine careless rapture, which feels great and there's nothing wrong with it, as long as you realize that it passes for pretty much everyone.

 

If you're lucky and seriously determined, what replaces it is the kind of love which doesn't disappear in a cloud of ashes when you discover that the person you were so lucky to find because they're everything you ever wanted is also a bunch of stuff you didn't want at all, because they're actual humans and not carbon-based vessels for your dreams.

 

Which is where what Priscilla was taught is just as wrong as it can possibly be. Her parents have actually banned agape from christianity because they can't articulate the distinction between the two and Priscilla being in love would get in the way of her being a carbon-based vessel for their dreams. And as ever with this kind of mind, the rest of us have to organize our lives to satisfy their bacon-cheese-burger-stained mixed-fiber inerrancy.

 

They suck. I wish them ill. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by Julia

[Defrauder]

I miss Aja.

[RazzleberryPie]

Holy cats. I just purposed to watch the David Waller/Priscilla Keller wedding video. What in the world was Jim Bob doing, participating in the post-vow prayers with the parents? His so-called prayer started out with him TELLING God what was what. Uh, JimBoob, you forgot that this isn't a talking head. And why do the attendants have to be married couples that stand together? Why did Michelle have to come up to the altar with JB instead of staying in her seat? Too tempting to sit in church without being chained at the hip to her "buddy"? Geesh. I haven't even watched the rest of it yet!

Because you are 100% WORTHLESS, sinful and disobedient, if you don't marry very early and flaunt your spouse every second of your life.

 

Tabbygirl521, I put the blame squarely on you...I just watched the Waller Wedding, or as I'm now calling it, "Wedding: The Musical!" I usually love weddings, get teary, enjoy different customs, ideas, etc. (love Four Weddings!) but this, this just gave me a major case of the icks. As well as wedding "firsts" (for me, in all my wedding observations). The pianist set the tone with the dramatic banging that wouldn't quit. I've never seen the "Hallelujah Chorus" used as a processional, just seemed weird (though I abhor "Here Comes The Bride"). I thought Tommy Tune was going to whack poor 'Cilla upside the head with his crazy, one-armed "directing." And then there was his endless solo. Girlfriend needed every bit of that Thorazine to smile and nod through all that (very "16 Candles"). If they hadn't been engaging in open hand sex, I just know his jazz hands would've been in full swing. I'd never heard Gothard speak before, and he's exactly what I would've thought: an oily cult leader. Verrrry smooth. I've never seen matching MOTB/MOTG uniforms. During the prayer session (which was a hot mess of redundancy), Anna's dad looked like he was either trying to solve a high level math problem or pass a kidney stone. I should've fought the urge to watch this before bed...I will probably have nightmares!

This summary of the wedding Gives Me Life. Bless you, my child.

 

No, Gothard was never shown. He hasn't been in ANY of the footage that has aired of Duggar/Keller /Bates weddings. 

Creepiest part about that Cult Leader, is that he refuses to be shown. Shade + Ego = Gothard.

 

In her own words Priscilla Waller describes her thoughts and feelings when she accepted David Waller's courtship:

 

I cried out to the Lord as I headed back to the lodge: “Lord, I know that love is not an emotion! Please show me what you are doing.” Jogging down the road, the Lord reminded me of the road He trod to Calvary. That was certainly not a road of emotion. He prayed three times that, if it was possible, to have this cup pass from Him. However, God so loved the world that He sent His only son to lay down His life for us. True, sincere love is not an emotion, but it is laying down your life. I needed to lay down my life, my plans, my future, my all so that together, we could go farther for God.

This is beyond sad. I haven't been on here in forever, and months ago said honestly felt remorse for making fun of Priscilla - seeming brainwashed and special needs - and that I was afraid TFDW would see comments and take it out on her. I've always picked up a cruel and spiteful vibe underlying his Hitler Youth grin. However, anyone who can't say no to something that is making her miserable, because she can't unwrap her gut feelings from a bunch of cult drivel, is just pitiful. I don't think not wanting to marry one man is the equivalent to the Son of God sacrificing his life, and going through a lot of mental and physical pain, to save all of mankind. The girl seriously cannot complete a thought without referencing a Biblical passage and, more frequently, Gothard Cult Speak. But, I guess in their world, she can justify her misery of having to marry David, with thinking that at least she gets a handsome husband and babies, and a ministry, and the prestige of being married AND the testimony of a martyr, instead of waiting for someoene she loves, or being a disobedient, worthless, ministryless, old maid.

 

The whole "Love is an Action, not an Emotion/Feeling," is 90% cult talk, 10% common sense. Of course very few people are going to feel the same exact excitement and sparks through their entire meeting, dating/courting, and all stages of marriage. Some things change for the better, a few for the worse, but there has to be a balance of emotional/feelings and the actions of considering your spouse's needs/wants (especially when children are incorporated). But the whole "Lust is a feeling, Love is an Action" etc is just a way to make unhappy people tow the line in hopes they won't divorce. Love is a feeling when your husband walks into a room, and you're glad he's yours and happy to see him. Love is an action, when at 3 a.m., the baby has puked allover the bed and he lets you take a shower first while he cleans the kid and the sheets, or vice versa.

 

David's story:

 

I mentioned that though I was confident Priscilla was the only one I could picture ever pursuing in marriage, I also was fine to wait until I was  older. I casually mentioned that since Dad did not get married until he was twenty-eight, maybe I should also wait till I turned twenty-eight. Then, if she was still available, then I knew she was the one. My mom, being a very candid communicator, exclaimed, “Chicken! If God has placed all these confirmations in front of you, maybe you should move forward in the light He has given you.” Deep down in my spirit, I knew this was right.

My parents and I talked about the qualities that I saw in her that really attracted me to her such as her passion to win souls for Christ and minister to people, her sensitive spirit toward the Lord, and her willingness to stand alone for her convictions. My parents asked me many questions about her family, which I could not answer because I had purposely tried to not show any special attention to her distracting both me and her before either of us were really ready or had freedom to move forward. I told mom and dad that I would wait until my twenty-fifth birthday to take any steps, but I would definitely keep them informed on what was going on in my heart and life.

 

Translation: Mom and Dad are pressuring me to get married, bc that's the sold goal in life of every Gothardite. I don't want to marry an icky girl, but if i have to pick one, Priscilla is the least icky. I know I can't have a ministry without a spouse, so I better pick one. I can say i picked her for a heart of ministry, and she's dumb and brainwashed enough to control without much effort. I'm going to try and see if i can hold off as long as possible, and hope someone else marries her, but Mom and Dad are making me bite the bullet and start courting Prissy. 

For more good viewing of Princilla, you must watch "Michelle Duggar and Princilla Waller Give encouragement to mothers and daughters" on YouTube!

I posted that on her once, too. It's bizarre. Priscilla and Michelle try to out baby voice and out Gothardspeak each other. Priscilla might have her beat. Michelle even squints. I just want David to jump in and start singing "Anything you can do I can do better!" in his best showtunes voice.

 

I'm a bit stunned to read this, yet I shouldn't be.  This makes it so very clear that internet porn is a very real thing in their insulated world.   How the hell does this even come up in a discussion with your soon to be son in law??   Why are Gothard families so into each others sex lives?  I don't want my family even thinking about my sex life OR my husband's internet usage.  Boundaries? 

Because Cult. Because Control.

 

In David's defense I believe he meant 'dating his mom and sisters' in the sense of just going out to eat with them.  That was David's dating experience and to him that is what dating is - just going out to eat.  Poor innocent David, trapped in a loveless marriage, unless you believe love is pure agony and sacrifice.  Well could be worse I guess, at least he knew that he HAD to court someone other than his mom or sisters.  He does appear happy, as only a brainwashed hostage can be.  Well I can't imagine living with Priscilla every day.  She's so over the top and seems to be in a constant state of religious ecstasy which I'm sure is the only ecstasy she's ever known so that's all she's got, but there is wayyyy something off there. 

I agree - as much as I detest the whole "Daddy Daughter Dates" that are so rampant in evangelical churches, I don't think anything sinister is happening 99% of the time. The wording is skeevy, just call it spending time with your kids, and don't go through the motions of a date without romantic affection. But yeah, sad that he lumps his WIFE in with his sisters and mother. 

 

On the other hand, those who go too far with the "love is an emotion" definition are prone to fall head over heels in love with someone else after marriage, too, and then they often walk off, leaving a spouse to curse and struggle. A good friend of mine recently gave me the old "I have a right to be happy, don't I?" thing and, honestly, at this particular point in time, I don't really think she does. Or at least I don't think her right is nearly strong enough to outrank other current considerations, although she's pretty certain that it is, based solely on the strength of her love emotion.

 

I completely agree with you - it should be phrased as "love is NOT ONLY and emotion, and NOT ONLY an action." I think the whole "it's not an emotion" is for idiots like Michelle who wantonly toss pieces of their heart at every person who comes by, then is devastated when things don't work out, or people like Priscilla, who sincerely wants to follow all the Gothard rules, but is struggling. Sometimes that's not selfishness or disobedience, it's just not for you. I feel sorry for her. She's so brainwashed, she'll never be able to make a complete thought that's her own.

Edited September 20, 2015 by RazzleberryPie

[cheatincheetos]

Ironically, both Priscilla's and David's posts do show some real emotion--fear and anger. It's all deeply couched in mechanical KJV-like language with a few awesomes and preciouses thrown in, the only language they have to express their important thoughts and feelings.

And don't forget the specials. Super specials.

[cheatincheetos]

I cried out to the Lord as I headed back to the lodge: “Lord, I know that love is not an emotion! Please show me what you are doing.” Jogging down the road, the Lord reminded me of the road He trod to Calvary. That was certainly not a road of emotion. He prayed three times that, if it was possible, to have this cup pass from Him. However, God so loved the world that He sent His only son to lay down His life for us. True, sincere love is not an emotion, but it is laying down your life. I needed to lay down my life, my plans, my future, my all so that together, we could go farther for God.

Lordy, this is as depressing as Kevin Smith and Johnny Depp's  "Tusk".

[kokapetl]

[Abstract]

Who are they?

 

Emotions are not supposed to come into play when choosing a spouse. That's all bad, bad, bad. God is supposed to tell you who the right one is. Not having feelings for the person is just a sign of how super-spiritual you are. Now, you are supposed to fall in love after you're engaged, and of course it's super easy to release all your pent-up emotions to this person because you've guarded your heart forever and never even allowed yourself to have a tiny crush on anyone. 

 

That's how it's all supposed to work. Jonathan Lindvall, a Gothard wannabe who has thankfully faded into obscurity (I would love to find out what has happened to his children), decided that courtship is unbiblical because people are too tempted to fall in love during courtship (*cough*Jill*cough*). So he instead instituted betrothal, which is basically "you're the one, God told me so." Then the couple go through a civil marriage ceremony, but still live apart and don't touch each other until the big wedding feast.

[Defrauder]

Who are they?

 

Emotions are not supposed to come into play when choosing a spouse. That's all bad, bad, bad. God is supposed to tell you who the right one is. Not having feelings for the person is just a sign of how super-spiritual you are. Now, you are supposed to fall in love after you're engaged, and of course it's super easy to release all your pent-up emotions to this person because you've guarded your heart forever and never even allowed yourself to have a tiny crush on anyone. 

 

That's how it's all supposed to work. Jonathan Lindvall, a Gothard wannabe who has thankfully faded into obscurity (I would love to find out what has happened to his children), decided that courtship is unbiblical because people are too tempted to fall in love during courtship (*cough*Jill*cough*). So he instead instituted betrothal, which is basically "you're the one, God told me so." Then the couple go through a civil marriage ceremony, but still live apart and don't touch each other until the big wedding feast.

Sounds lovely.  Then wannabe Jonathan lives miserably ever after.

[Churchhoney]

Who are they?

 

Emotions are not supposed to come into play when choosing a spouse. That's all bad, bad, bad. God is supposed to tell you who the right one is. Not having feelings for the person is just a sign of how super-spiritual you are. Now, you are supposed to fall in love after you're engaged, and of course it's super easy to release all your pent-up emotions to this person because you've guarded your heart forever and never even allowed yourself to have a tiny crush on anyone. 

 

That's how it's all supposed to work. Jonathan Lindvall, a Gothard wannabe who has thankfully faded into obscurity (I would love to find out what has happened to his children), decided that courtship is unbiblical because people are too tempted to fall in love during courtship (*cough*Jill*cough*). So he instead instituted betrothal, which is basically "you're the one, God told me so." Then the couple go through a civil marriage ceremony, but still live apart and don't touch each other until the big wedding feast.

 

How could this plan possibly attract so many proponents? Have they all ingested too much of some toxic food additive or something?

[BitterApple]

Damn, are these people that hard up they're willing to dress up in foolish costumes to score free donuts? What's a dozen donuts at Krispy Kreme, ten bucks or something? They're so cheap and grifty it's embarrassing. Much like TFDW forcing his wife to camp out at Chik-Fil-A in the winter to score a free sandwich. Just pay the $2.99 already and save yourself the frostbite.

[Churchhoney]

Damn, are these people that hard up they're willing to dress up in foolish costumes to score free donuts? What's a dozen donuts at Krispy Kreme, ten bucks or something? They're so cheap and grifty it's embarrassing. Much like TFDW forcing his wife to camp out at Chik-Fil-A in the winter to score a free sandwich. Just pay the $2.99 already and save yourself the frostbite.

 

See, you fail to think of the big picture. If you simply buy the food, the selfie you post on social media will have way less chance of getting a media pickup or going viral. Gotta keep our eyes on the prize here -- continued celebrity mentions and potential advertiser payments!

Edited September 21, 2015 by Churchhoney

[BitterApple]

See, you fail to think of the big picture. If you simply buy the food, the selfie you post on social media will have way less chance of getting a media pickup or going viral. Gotta keep our eyes on the prize here -- continued celebrity mentions and potential advertiser payments!

That's true, I forgot this family is working the ho stroll like a junkie who hasn't had a fix in a week in a desperate attempt to save their dying celebrity.

[Churchhoney]

Hi, Churchie! You make good points, but still I see it a bit differently. To me, a 'soul mates' marriage's potential to devolve does not necessarily diminish its initial deeper goal.

Why do the Duggar-types seem to enjoy believing they are victims/martyrs to 'god's plan', as if a) God wants them to do things they really do not want to do (strange for an almighty being - kinda cruel) and b) going blindly along with their imagined 'god's plan' connotes a greater morality than trying hard to selectively choose a partner with whom one can grow the love already developed between each other from the beginning and then creatively endeavor to make that commitment work for a lifetime? Why is remaining childlike in dependency, waiting for God to constantly provide answers and a map, worn with such pride? I just don't get it.

 

Yeah, I get you! I tend to agree with you as well, for the most part.

 

However, it also seems to me that they have a different basis for morality. It's not yours or mine. But they believe in a being that has a higher plan that they can't fully understand. And that's their basis for choosing things. .... And I wouldn't call them fully wrong. For example, you say: "Why do the Duggar-types seem to enjoy believing they are victims/martyrs to 'god's plan', as if a) God wants them to do things they really do not want to do (strange for an almighty being - kinda cruel)." And I say that lots and lots of times, to this atheist, people including myself don't want to do things that are actually the right things to do, the better things. So why is it necessarily cruel for a higher principle of the universe to urge people to do those things anyway, for the greater good? That doesn't make you a victim of that higher principle -- it lets you lean on the higher principle's help to keep yourself from making a choice that may not be for the greater good, even though it greatly appeals to you.

 

I think a lot of people -- and these silly people, especially -- take way too shallow and selfish a view of their higher being's principles and preferences. But I don't see anything inherently wrong -- at all -- with checking out your personal choices against some principle that's bigger than you are. I don't happen to believe in their god, and I do think they take a shallow childish view of the god of the universe. And I don't think that parents have any right to force their children into decisions on this basis. But these are clearly all kind of dumb and quite fearful people, and I think that's why they have such narrow views and take this idea too far and into narrow-minded and constricting places.

 

Nevertheless, I don't see that their basis for making this kind of decision as fundamentally different from my trying to consult my own principles about whether I should follow my own personal wants or do something that I -- perhaps reluctantly -- see as leading to the higher good. And I would rather see people like DW and PW have the potential for finding meaning in their lives because of that belief than have them experience nothing but sad and bitter feelings over a marriage that didn't coincide with their desires. If I thought they were people who'd walk off from their families and go their own way, I'd wish that for them instead. But I suspect they aren't people who would do that, at least not yet, so I would hope they could get some comfort out of feeling their sacrifices have a meaning, even if they don''t know today what that meaning is. .... That's what I hope for everybody who sacrifices something, really. And I don't think sacrifice is inherently foolish.

[satrunrose]

Although I still find it the most depressing story about religious extremist marriage that I've read since "A Thousand Splendid Suns", it does leave me rethinking my impression of Gothardite marriage. I made the assumption that, although these are pretty clearly arranged marriages, no one actually tells the brides that. Instead they force feed them a steady diet of "Before you meet prince charming" so the poor, naive waifs actually believe that they are in love.   Looking at Priscilla, who I think would be very likely to buy into the princess version, maybe the girls are going into this knowing the score...which oddly seems less troubling than the alternative. 

Edited September 21, 2015 by satrunrose

[queenanne]

I think the main problem I have with this theology is that, if you're not sure God is there, or cares about such things in respect of every single person in the universe, and will steer every single person in the universe, then all the Gothard-ology seems like little more than fatalism or, next door to consulting the proverbial witch doctor.  And then, if you dare to say you feel like that proverbial child who believes in God but "wants someone with skin on" when the terrifying thunderclaps come, you get called a bad Christian for not having that faith - sometimes for decades! no rule says the likes of Jana couldn't still be unmarried at forty - or alternately, you get blamed for interfering in "God's plan for your life".  

 

They'll also have no problem telling you miraculously about the story of someone at whom "God" kept pushing a job, or a spouse, or something, at them selectively and not giving up, multiple times and giving them several chances, before they finally accepted said gift.  And you're also supposed to accept that too, because "who can understand the mind of God?  Who knows why God gave Sandra twenty chances at Mike while she lolled around for five years before accepting, and yet no one has ever asked to court you?"  Or that the "sin in your camp kept God from giving you whatever thing you wanted most, which otherwise he was going to give you."  (And sometimes, for fundies that besetting overwhelming unforgivable "sin" that keeps you from getting your ideal spouse, children, what have you, will be painted as "wanting to listen to the oldies secular radio station, or watch General Hospital".)

Edited September 21, 2015 by queenanne

[Julia]

And I say that lots and lots of times, to this atheist, people including myself don't want to do things that are actually the right things to do, the better things. So why is it necessarily cruel for a higher principle of the universe to urge people to do those things anyway, for the greater good? 

 

And I hear that, and I tend to agree with you, but I get a disturbing resonance from what I'm reading and hearing that they they're saying that loving your spouse is actually kind of dicey and a distraction from your mutual relationship with God and your responsibilities to what he wants from you.

 

I mean, think about it - Jim Bob talks a lot about what a great mom Michelle is, and how much he wants to boink her, but does he ever say he loves her? Because he's supposed to love her as he loves himself, and he loves himself a really lot. 

 

It just feels like a ponzi scheme, where people in loveless, penitential marriages breed small baseball leagues full of children and do everything they can to make sure they end up in loveless, penitential marriages. And that's not a given for even extremely strictly religious people.

[RazzleberryPie]

Priscilla and David's struggles/martyrdom with deciding to marry each other is the exception to the norm. Most people, evangelical and fundie or not, are still going to marry who they're the most attracted to. These guys might say they're looking for a Proverbs 31 woman, but they'll imprint those Proverbs 31 qualities onto the first girl they think is hot, whether she possesses them or not. The girls won't admit it, but most of them encourage it, too. This is why they marry so quickly. All men, but ESPECIALLY teens and those under 25, think predominantly with the penis instead of their brain in regards to relationships, and the first part of the brain to work is the one that inflates their egos.  

[Churchhoney]

And I hear that, and I tend to agree with you, but I get a disturbing resonance from what I'm reading and hearing that they they're saying that loving your spouse is actually kind of dicey and a distraction from your mutual relationship with God and your responsibilities to what he wants from you.

 

I mean, think about it - Jim Bob talks a lot about what a great mom Michelle is, and how much he wants to boink her, but does he ever say he loves her? Because he's supposed to love her as he loves himself, and he loves himself a really lot. 

 

It just feels like a ponzi scheme, where people in loveless, penitential marriages breed small baseball leagues full of children and do everything they can to make sure they end up in loveless, penitential marriages. And that's not a given for even extremely strictly religious people.

 

Oh, yeah, I agree with you guys. I'm very disturbed by this whole world and the stuff they do. And I don't think that parents ever have the right to force their children into this kind of situation. But I'm not really commenting on any of that. The wrongness of it is a given, obviously.  But I just think there's more to the picture.

 

The thing is, knowing people who stay -- for decades, forever -- in horribly, unforgivably confining and manipulative situations, I know that some take much needed comfort from feeling that their confinement and the long-ago death of all their hopes is for a good purpose. If someone isn't going to leave in any case -- and I do think that there are probably Duggars, Kellers, Wallers and others who just won't, just as in my own family there have been people who just won't -- then that belief may be all that person has. And so i can't see it as all bad if they get some comfort from it, and I know people who do.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Churchhoney

[queenanne]

Priscilla and David's struggles/martyrdom with deciding to marry each other is the exception to the norm. Most people, evangelical and fundie or not, are still going to marry who they're the most attracted to. These guys might say they're looking for a Proverbs 31 woman, but they'll imprint those Proverbs 31 qualities onto the first girl they think is hot, whether she possesses them or not. The girls won't admit it, but most of them encourage it, too. This is why they marry so quickly. All men, but ESPECIALLY teens and those under 25, think predominantly with the penis instead of their brain in regards to relationships, and the first part of the brain to work is the one that inflates their egos.  

 

I would assume, that that's where Christian Mom & Dad are supposed to weigh in though, especially if they possess clear-eyed foresight, and think Ms. Proverbs 31 is putting on a good act and bucking for "Most Likely to Cheat on Her Good Christian Husband by Age 25".  Girls can be Joshes, too.

[Darknight]

David Waller speaks of Priscilla's father (also Anna's father) giving him the go ahead to pursue a courtship with Priscilla.

To my joy, he was very open and excited. After a while, he stopped me and just said, “David, I really feel like God is the One working in your life to give you these desires toward Priscilla. I have only two questions for you: Are you willing to trust God with the size of your family and second, are you willing to be accountable to Priscilla for your Internet use.”

So a grown man needs an accountable partner.

[3girlsforus]

So a grown man needs an accountable partner.

 

See I think their definition of 'grown man' is someone who is old enough to have a son that is getting married. Until then you are treated like you are 6 year old. After all it seems the only men who don't have accountability partners are JB and Senior Keller. Josh supposedly had an accountability partner in Anna which is why it's her fault he strayed. Clearly she wasn't doing her job. 

[Guest]

I have only two questions for you: Are you willing to trust God with the size of your family and second, are you willing to be accountable to Priscilla for your Internet use.”

 

If those are the only two questions that he's asking, then it's no wonder that his daughters ended up with TFDW and Joshley. 

[Defrauder]

When I watch Priscilla in video 'encouraging' daughters, wives, mothers in their 'struggle's' it occurs to me that she is just as much trying to convince herself of what she's been 'trained' to believe as anyone else.  She needs to keep re-brainwashing herself to keep up her life and she comes across like a child who isn't thinking as an adult would but a child who has been told what to think.  Similar with David.  They're playing roles they have been 'trained' to play.

[Joe Jitsu913]

If those are the only two questions that he's asking, then it's no wonder that his daughters ended up with TFDW and Joshley.

Anna's father reminds me of Lou Pearlman, the pervy ex-manager of NSYNC and Backstreets Boys. He skeeves me out.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Joe Jitsu913

[Darknight]

See I think their definition of 'grown man' is someone who is old enough to have a son that is getting married. Until then you are treated like you are 6 year old. After all it seems the only men who don't have accountability partners are JB and Senior Keller. Josh supposedly had an accountability partner in Anna which is why it's her fault he strayed. Clearly she wasn't doing her job.

But Jim Bob can't even be trusted by himself.

[Tabbygirl521]

My marriage would give the Duggars an aneurysm. I am TOTALLY PLATONIC friends with ones of my exes - we broke up during the Nixon administration - and sometimes i purpose to go out and have a drink with him and a few friends. Sometimes my spouse comes along, and sometimes he doesn't feel like it. But he always trusts me to go if I want to, and he is absolutely justified in that trust. Somehow, even without an accountability partner, I have kept my marriage vows.

And none of this is a "struggle," either. And I chose my spouse all by myself! Like a BIG DURL!

Priscilla and David make me sad. They are trying so hard. At least Jill and Jessa seem to be into their guys, and vice versa.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Tabbygirl521

[BitterApple]

Priscilla and David make me sad. They are trying so hard. At least Jill and Jessa seem to be into their guys, and vice versa.

David and Priscilla say the right things and take all the right "happy family" pictures but the clenched smiles and strained expressions don't lie. They seem determined to make it work, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them cracks within the next few years.

[PityFree]

My money is on David cracking first. It's gotta be tough to hide the fabulous 24/7.

[Defrauder]

Another thing I found weird in David's about David post on their website is that his older brother Isaac died at age 25 and they didn't know he had a rare form of cancer until the day he died.   I assume that a cancer so deadly would require some medical attention so why did they not know about it until the day he died?  I could be wrong but did they just think he was sick and try to pray it away?  

[Defrauder]

David has hell scared into him by the time he's 3.  In David's words:

 

My little stature, winsome nature, and doting siblings did not ensure the development of good character in my life. In fact, at an early age I began to see that no one had to teach me how to sin, I did it quite naturally. It was toward the end of my third year of life that I recognized I was a sinner and that the punishment for sin is eternal separation from God in a horrible place of torment that He calls hell. I remember talking to my parents about my placing my trust in Christ as my only hope for salvation. I also remember the calm assurance that swept over my soul after giving my life to Jesus Christ and trusting Him alone for salvation.

[Churchhoney]

Absolutely! Because their entire lives are built on nothing but superficial claptrap and cliches. Hard to develop any depth on any level when you are raised with such a one dimensional, black vs. white, simplistic view on life.

 

I think that's another thing that demonstrates just how fear-based all of this is. Black and white, simplicity, simple rules and one dimensionality seem like a hedge against mistakes to fearful people, and especially to fearful dumb people. ... I don't know how you'd ever talk such fear-based people out of grabbing onto cult thinking like this because they really crave protection from how terrifying they find pretty much everything, I expect.

David has hell scared into him by the time he's 3.  In David's words:

 

My little stature, winsome nature, and doting siblings did not ensure the development of good character in my life. In fact, at an early age I began to see that no one had to teach me how to sin, I did it quite naturally. It was toward the end of my third year of life that I recognized I was a sinner and that the punishment for sin is eternal separation from God in a horrible place of torment that He calls hell. I remember talking to my parents about my placing my trust in Christ as my only hope for salvation. I also remember the calm assurance that swept over my soul after giving my life to Jesus Christ and trusting Him alone for salvation.

 

And a hell that he deserves to go to as a three-year-old "sinner." That pretty much explains everything, I'd say. His parents were monsters, their cult is monstrous, and he was a highly highly suggestible and easily scared child. And this is what you get. Sad.

[Defrauder]

I found my answer to Isaac Waller's sickness and death written by his brother Adam on the website for the Advanced Training Institute International (ATI) an article titled Eternal Investment a Tribute to the life of Isaac Waller.  Apparently from the article Isaac developed a pain in his leg in early October and died in November. I'm not a medical doctor and it appears that the family consulted medical professionals in October but common sense tells me that something so serious would have caused some type of symptom prior to one month of passing away.  Then again I am not qualified to judge how quickly some diseases can result in death, so I'm just not going to form an opinion either way. 

[queenanne]

I think that's another thing that demonstrates just how fear-based all of this is. Black and white, simplicity, simple rules and one dimensionality seem like a hedge against mistakes to fearful people, and especially to fearful dumb people. ... I don't know how you'd ever talk such fear-based people out of grabbing onto cult thinking like this because they really crave protection from how terrifying they find pretty much everything, I expect.

 

And a hell that he deserves to go to as a three-year-old "sinner." That pretty much explains everything, I'd say. His parents were monsters, their cult is monstrous, and he was a highly highly suggestible and easily scared child. And this is what you get. Sad.

 

Yes, the children are fearful because they're taught to be fearful of the world, like it's a big scary place filled with kidnappers, demons, whorish women, and the like. They're not naturally fearful, at least not all of them, not even if one thinks it's likely that one cautious adult fraidycat would have similarities biologically to a related offspring of their genes.  How they rank this with that verse about "God has not given us a spirit of fear but of boldness", I don't know.  (Actually wait, I do, traditionally Christians seem to trot it out only and solely to opening your mouth to proselytize, and used as an excuse to discomfit poor unfortunate Christian introverts if you're not built that way.)

[kassygreene]

I found my answer to Isaac Waller's sickness and death written by his brother Adam on the website for the Advanced Training Institute International (ATI) an article titled Eternal Investment a Tribute to the life of Isaac Waller.  Apparently from the article Isaac developed a pain in his leg in early October and died in November. I'm not a medical doctor and it appears that the family consulted medical professionals in October but common sense tells me that something so serious would have caused some type of symptom prior to one month of passing away.  Then again I am not qualified to judge how quickly some diseases can result in death, so I'm just not going to form an opinion either way. 

Sickness is weird, perhaps especially in the U.S. with our screwy "health" & "insurance".  Lots of people won't go to a doctor because the trifling symptoms will pass, and all the doctor is going to do is spend five minutes implying you are a headcase (bitter? me?  naaaahhh).  And also won't go because something might be wrong, and all the doctors will do is torture you with tests, procedures, and hospital-transmitted infections (really,not bitter at aaaalllll).

 

But fatal health conditions are nasty witches (no offense to Wiccans).  You can have flu-like symptoms for months, or years, and then suddenly Get Taken Out.  Two times in my working life, in jobs that were 10 years and two thousand miles apart, I had a co-worker with a sudden, surprise diagnosis of congestive heart failure, followed by death within a month.  Two years ago a neighbor who'd had a cough for several months went to a doctor, was diagnosed with advanced cancer, and died six weeks later.  My grandmother, one month from retirement, had a routine physical and was put in the hospital with stomach cancer, where she died ten weeks later.

 

For that matter, diagnosing anything requires a) competence in the medical person, & b) frank and open descriptions by the patient.  It's interpersonal communications skills for the most important conversation of your life, and most of us (and most of them) are no damn good at it. 

Edited September 23, 2015 by kassygreene

[3 is enough]

Regarding David's brother, not sure what kind of cancer he had, but I do know that many abdominal cancers are asymptomatic until they have spread beyond treatment.  My father was diagnosed with stage 4 liver cancer, and subsequently learned that it started with a rare abdominal cancer called mucinous adeno carcinoma.  He died 3 months after his diagnosis.  It happens, even to people who trust medical professionals and don't pray everything away.

 

It is entirely possible that Isaac had some other cancer that spread to his leg.

[queenanne]

Sickness is weird, perhaps especially in the U.S. with our screwy "health" & "insurance".  Lots of people won't go to a doctor because the trifling symptoms will pass, and all the doctor is going to do is spend five minutes implying you are a headcase (bitter? me?  naaaahhh).  And also won't go because something might be wrong, and all the doctors will do is torture you with tests, procedures, and hospital-transmitted infections (really,not bitter at aaaalllll).

 

But fatal health conditions are nasty witches (no offense to Wiccans).  You can have flu-like symptoms for months, or years, and then suddenly Get Taken Out.  Two times in my working life, in jobs that were 10 years and two thousand miles apart, I had a co-worker with a sudden, surprise diagnosis of congestive heart failure, followed by death within a month.  Two years ago a neighbor who'd had a cough for several months went to a doctor, was diagnosed with advanced cancer, and died six weeks later.  My grandmother, one month from retirement, had a routine physical and was put in the hospital with stomach cancer, where she died ten weeks later.

 

For that matter, diagnosing anything requires a) competence in the medical person, & b) frank and open descriptions by the patient.  It's interpersonal communications skills for the most important conversation of your life, and most of us (and most of them) are no damn good at it. 

 

Yeah, not trying to take us too far afield topically or anything, but there are so many areas where the medical profession "just guesses" about causes; they've got good machines for looking inside you, but you know...  In fact, there's a new article running around about results showing how many people have received flat out wrong diagnoses from doctors... just recently I recall someone talking about how difficult and long a process it is to get a doctor to continue to look for causes for your chronic fatigue, if there's nothing wrong with you physically.  And I've seen comparative rafts of people with what "they think" is, say, IBS saying, basically, the same thing; doctor doesn't respect or believe me; thinks some of the more unpleasant symptoms I describe, are all in my head and me being a nutcase; when doctor couldn't fix me with XYZ, he basically stopped looking for a way to fix me.