Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[DragonFaerie]

Thank you @doodlebug for your vast knowledge and explaining it to all of us.  You are such a wonderful font of medical knowledge and wisdom and I, for one, am so glad you are here.

[Heathen]

3 hours ago, Nysha said:

That was heartbreaking to read. Those poor kids. I can't imagine being in a situation where I'm still being physically punished at 23 by my father. This explains Jair's incredible anger issues that were apparent in the TV show.

 It makes me wonder if the Duggar's don't have similar hold on their adult children.

I thought Toby was convicted of molesting the 4 oldest, but if he started with Jessica when she was 3 he probably molested all of the girls. Jessica isn't condemning her mother for allowing it to happen, but she's not ignoring that fact, either. Given that she watched Toby beat Jessica and then allowed her to hide her bleeding body from the police makes her mother complicit in the physical abuse, not to mention knowing he was molesting her daughters and not turning him in. Again, typical for this sick mindset, being on TV trumps protecting your children.

Brenda Willis sacrificed her children for her marriage long before they were on TV. She's a piece of shit. She could have left and taken the children with her. 

Parents not protecting their children is a sensitive topic with me, especially now. 

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, Fuzzysox said:

Remember how many times we saw this story on the news? It was all over the news for months. Scott and Janet are salt of the earth types, having a monster for a son must be shocking to them.

I'm glad that Jessica had the strength to get the hell out of that house. I don't understand why she didn't run to her grandparents? Maybe Toby wasn't close to them? I would hope/think she would have felt safe at her grandparents? So many questions.

I'm from the Chicago area and really felt for those parents.  This tragedy reminds me of the Stayner family.  After their son Steven was kidnapped and kept by a child molester for seven years (I Know My First Name is Steven), he returned home only to die of an accident ten years later.  Then their elder son, Cary, was sentenced to death for being a serial killer. 

[BitterApple]

33 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm from the Chicago area and really felt for those parents.  This tragedy reminds me of the Stayner family.  After their son Steven was kidnapped and kept by a child molester for seven years (I Know My First Name is Steven), he returned home only to die of an accident ten years later.  Then their elder son, Cary, was sentenced to death for being a serial killer. 

Poor Steven. Talk about being given the shit end of the stick in life.

Edited April 14, 2018 by BitterApple

[becca3891]

8 hours ago, Fuzzysox said:

I was coming to post the same thing about Jessica Willis. What a horrifying life those kids lead. Brenda knew but did nothing......she majored in education she SHOULD know better(mandated reporter). I don't have any words. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Heathen said:

If their mother took Toby Willis's word that nothing was happening, she's as guilty as he is. 

I'm conflicted on how I feel about Brenda. I am angry with her but also trying to understand that she was a victim too. I know Toby was threatening all their lives if anyone went to the police and that had to be agonizing. 

It's sickening in hindsight to remember her talking head segments where she said "We like ballroom dance because it mirrors our beliefs -- men lead and women follow." Yes, well, this goes to show what a poisonous belief system that is. It always bothered me that some people on this site liked to hold up the Willeses as the "anti-Duggars," just because they're allowed to dance and wear pants. If you watched closely, you saw that their chilling patriarchal belief system was just as bad. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by becca3891

[becca3891]

18 hours ago, Farmfam said:

@becca3891 my daughter has Down Syndrome and your comment is down right offensive. "A child with special needs is not something to be gleeful about" 

As someone who cares full time for a disabled family member, I am heartbroken and upset at the way my comment was perceived. I was pointing out that I don't believe anyone here was being gleeful over what is a difficult time for Jill Rodrigues. I would NEVER, EVER, say or imply that a disability is a misfortune. But it is a challenge, and it is scary when you don't know what you're dealing with. Sometimes the person with a disability suffers from chronic pain, and that is very different from suggesting that it is bad. 

All of you who accused me need to know how deeply I am involved in disability rights and how shocked I am to have been accused of ableism. The first thing anyone in the disability rights world knows is that it is the furthest thing from wrong to acknowledge that disabilities often bring with them special challenges that can be difficult. To those that defended me, thank you. There is so much actual hate and ignorance in the world that it's pretty sad a comment like mine was twisted so badly.

Edited April 14, 2018 by becca3891

[Temperance]

2 hours ago, becca3891 said:

I'm conflicted on how I feel about Brenda. I am angry with her but also trying to understand that she was a victim too. I know Toby was threatening all their lives if anyone went to the police and that had to be agonizing. 

It's sickening in hindsight to remember her talking head segments where she said "We like ballroom dance because it mirrors our beliefs -- men lead and women follow." Yes, well, this goes to show what a poisonous belief system that is. It always bothered me that some people on this site liked to hold up the Willeses as the "anti-Duggars," just because they're allowed to dance and wear pants. If you watched closely, you saw that their chilling patriarchal belief system was just as bad. 

I saw maybe 5 seconds of that show. One of the girls (I think in her twenties) had a boyfriend and Toby and her brothers and maybe her mother too were all over inforcing rules about how much they could touch and stating the necessity of chaperonage for their daughter. The girl and her boyfriend were holding hands.  I get not wanting your kids not to go too far when they're teens and hoping they'll follow the values you gave them when they were young as they get older. But most of my fundie-lites didn't do chaperones and guess what the majority of the kids seem to have waited until they got married. (At least as far as I know. ;) ) Chaperoning in general seems overprotective enough with teenagers.  But once the kids are adults, they should be encouraged to leave home and allowed to define and enforce their own values. 

I didn't get the sense the Willises wanted their kids to leave home anymore the Duggars do. 

[Barb23]

12 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Gil Bates: Don't go on vacation. Come to a Family Conference instead (video). This should dispel any doubts about the Bateses loosening up on their beliefs. 

https://iblp.org/seminars-conferences/family-conferences

Sign me up!  Wow, it looks like all the regulars & then some will be speakers: JB & Mechelle, Gil& Kelly, David Waller & even Lauren's dad.  Maybe they should add JD & Jana as speakers.  Topic - Why we have decided not to marry the first person who comes along & have honeymoon babies like most of our siblings. Will any of the Duggar or Bates offspring  be teachers for the younger children's classes or Alert? They seem to do nothing except for laying around & playing dominoes so why not volunteer for a week? They could even tape them for the show(s).

I know these family conferences are one place Gothard/IBLP raised children can meet a future mate. Maybe JD, Jana or the older Bates brothers can find a  special someone here.  I noticed some younger male speakers. Are they available? 

Just a few more questions:

How much do these conferences cost? Are the speakers paid? Are their accommodations paid for or given at a reduced rate or do they have to stay in a Stink Bus?  

[GeeGolly]

So sad for the Willis children. Jessica's post gave hints to many reasons abuse can continue for so long in families. I'm curious about her feelings toward her mom, then, now and going forward. She said the sexual abuse was first acknowledged when she was 9. 6 more kids were born after that, 5 of which happened to be females. And it sounds like the abuse was acknowledged a few more times up until the she finally left. Her post feels like she is trying to be understanding and forgiving toward her mom, however when Jessica starts having children of her own, her feelings about her mom may become more intense and very confusing. Most mothers would choose living on the streets to protect their kids, but many don't.

In all of JB's & M's effeduppedness, this is an example of how they handled their daughters' molestations better than a lot of families. 

Posts like Jessica's kind of knock the snarky wind out of my sails. That family will be forever healing going forward. 

[Mollie]

25 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

So sad for the Willis children. Jessica's post gave hints to many reasons abuse can continue for so long in families.

This is a quote of her interview with The Daily Mail: "The abuse predates the family's public profile, she said, and was facilitated by the fact that all 12 of the siblings were homeschooled and sheltered." The Willis children are just another case where homeschooling was used to sequester children and provide a cover-up for child abuse. And, like the Duggars, the Willis family also had a home church which further isolated the children.

 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Mollie said:

This is a quote of her interview with The Daily Mail: "The abuse predates the family's public profile, she said, and was facilitated by the fact that all 12 of the siblings were homeschooled and sheltered." The Willis children are just another case where homeschooling was used to sequester children and provide a cover-up for child abuse. And, like the Duggars, the Willis family also had a home church which further isolated the children.

 

They were/are many more reasons than being Fundy and homeschooled though Mollie. I don't think they calculatedly homeschooled and homechurched to hide the abuse, but it did keep many from seeing it. I'm also guessing many outside the family had clues to what was going on and said nothing as well.

The hints I was referring to were more about family dynamics.

[RedheadZombie]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

So sad for the Willis children. Jessica's post gave hints to many reasons abuse can continue for so long in families. I'm curious about her feelings toward her mom, then, now and going forward. She said the sexual abuse was first acknowledged when she was 9. 6 more kids were born after that, 5 of which happened to be females. And it sounds like the abuse was acknowledged a few more times up until the she finally left. Her post feels like she is trying to be understanding and forgiving toward her mom, however when Jessica starts having children of her own, her feelings about her mom may become more intense and very confusing. Most mothers would choose living on the streets to protect their kids, but many don't.

In all of JB's & M's effeduppedness, this is an example of how they handled their daughters' molestations better than a lot of families. 

Posts like Jessica's kind of knock the snarky wind out of my sails. That family will be forever healing going forward. 

When the abuse was exposed, Jessica's mom and older sisters stated that the mother was completely ignorant of the situation and that none of the girls knew that another girl was being/had been abused.  I think Jessica is making it very clear that those were lies, and she will not follow the party line to present the mother as completely innocent.  The family also seemed to want to portray that Toby was the beginning and end of the dysfunction, when clearly the mom knew about the molestation and continued to have more children (girls), helped to cover up Jessica's beating when the police responded, and even at least one older boy fed into the horrible dysfunction by having a fight with Jessica, and then running to tell daddy who then beat her.  The other adult siblings as well as mom policed Jessica's relationship, and possibly reported where Jessica's hidden letters were, etc. 

Jessica is making it clear that the entire family was deeply dysfunctional, and what she doesn't say is that simply removing the patriarch doesn't cure that dysfunction.  God knows what that mother is teaching her little girls know that they don't have that patriarch to follow - which she believes is the proper way.  It seems more likely that she will simply marry again versus realizing that patriarchy is poisonous.  I have less sympathy for the woman who were not raised in this suffocating lifestyle that those who simply continue what they were taught.  Like Michelle, this mom had a "normal" upbringing (I *believe*) yet chose to do this to her daughters.  They also do a disservice to women in general by raising their sons with this patriarchal BS.

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

When the abuse was exposed, Jessica's mom and older sisters stated that the mother was completely ignorant of the situation and that none of the girls knew that another girl was being/had been abused.  I think Jessica is making it very clear that those were lies, and she will not follow the party line to present the mother as completely innocent.  The family also seemed to want to portray that Toby was the beginning and end of the dysfunction, when clearly the mom knew about the molestation and continued to have more children (girls), helped to cover up Jessica's beating when the police responded, and even at least one older boy fed into the horrible dysfunction by having a fight with Jessica, and then running to tell daddy who then beat her.  The other adult siblings as well as mom policed Jessica's relationship, and possibly reported where Jessica's hidden letters were, etc. 

Jessica is making it clear that the entire family was deeply dysfunctional, and what she doesn't say is that simply removing the patriarch doesn't cure that dysfunction.  God knows what that mother is teaching her little girls know that they don't have that patriarch to follow - which she believes is the proper way.  It seems more likely that she will simply marry again versus realizing that patriarchy is poisonous.  I have less sympathy for the woman who were not raised in this suffocating lifestyle that those who simply continue what they were taught.  Like Michelle, this mom had a "normal" upbringing (I *believe*) yet chose to do this to her daughters.  They also do a disservice to women in general by raising their sons with this patriarchal BS.

And I hear a lot of forgiveness and understanding about the unhealthy family dynamics in Jessica's honest and vague post. Jessica also mentioned receiving reading materials about abuse which is part of what helped her leave.

We have no idea if Jessica's mom and siblings now have a clearer picture and are working on healthier relationships or continuing in a totally dysfunctional way. The mom might have entered into her husband's Fundyism with innocent hopefulness and was groomed into aiding and abetting the unhealthy ways. Or maybe she was raised in an abusive family. Or maybe she was raised in a very healthy family. We really don't know, but Jessica gave a good peak into what an unhealthy family looks like and hinted at why it continues for so long.

Unfortunately in my business I hear stories of abuse frequently and many of the women I work with are strong and intelligent. No one believes they would continue to stay in an environment like Jessica's but many do. Each time a survivor shares their story it helps those trapped see there is help on the other side. Kudos to Jessica.

Edited April 14, 2018 by GeeGolly

[RedheadZombie]

22 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

And I hear a lot of forgiveness and understanding about the unhealthy family dynamics in Jessica's honest and vague post. Jessica also mentioned receiving reading materials about abuse which is part of what helped her leave.

We have no idea if Jessica's mom and siblings now have a clearer picture and are working on healthier relationships or continuing in a totally dysfunctional way. The mom might have entered into her husband's Fundyism with innocent hopefulness and was groomed into aiding and abetting the unhealthy ways. Or maybe she was raised in an abusive family. Or maybe she was raised in a very healthy family. We really don't know, but Jessica gave a good peak into what an unhealthy family looks like and hinted at why it continues for so long.

Unfortunately in my business I hear stories of abuse frequently and many of the women I work with are strong and intelligent. No one believes they would continue to stay in an environment like Jessica's but many do. Each time a survivor shares their story it helps those trapped see there is help on the other side. Kudos to Jessica.

I am confused about who reported Toby.  It seems people here say it was Jessica's therapist, but she states in her blog it was a male friend.

[GeeGolly]

4 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I am confused about who reported Toby.  It seems people here say it was Jessica's therapist, but she states in her blog it was a male friend.

How soon after she left was the report made? A therapist would have had to report the abuse because there were still minors in the home, but I'm guessing it was a while after she left before she saw a therapist.

[Scarlett45]

On 4/13/2018 at 2:51 PM, EVS said:

I just saw this in the Daily Mail. It’s a statement by Jessica Willis detailing her abuse at the hands of her father. Scroll about halfway through the article to read her full statement. It is heartbreaking and disturbing and does make you wonder what really goes on behind the  supposedly perfect facade put on by so many of these families.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5613193/Willis-sister-Jessica-speaks-abuse-left-family.html

Jessica is a true survivor. I wish her a full and happy life with her husband. Her dad can burn in hell. 

[madpsych78]

48 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

And I hear a lot of forgiveness and understanding about the unhealthy family dynamics in Jessica's honest and vague post. Jessica also mentioned receiving reading materials about abuse which is part of what helped her leave.

We have no idea if Jessica's mom and siblings now have a clearer picture and are working on healthier relationships or continuing in a totally dysfunctional way. The mom might have entered into her husband's Fundyism with innocent hopefulness and was groomed into aiding and abetting the unhealthy ways. Or maybe she was raised in an abusive family. Or maybe she was raised in a very healthy family. We really don't know, but Jessica gave a good peak into what an unhealthy family looks like and hinted at why it continues for so long.

Unfortunately in my business I hear stories of abuse frequently and many of the women I work with are strong and intelligent. No one believes they would continue to stay in an environment like Jessica's but many do. Each time a survivor shares their story it helps those trapped see there is help on the other side. Kudos to Jessica.

So very true. I just recently heard that my aunt, who is 62 years old and has not worked since the 1980s, finally left her husband of almost 35 years. Apparently (unbeknownst to the rest of the family) he had been physically and verbally abusing her and their kids. She initially married him so that she wouldn't have to work anymore, and she essentially was a stay-at-home mom and housewife during their marriage. I would imagine it would have been difficult to leave in that situation because the job prospects can be low, especially the longer one goes without working and for older individuals. Financially it was easier to stay married, but eventually there came a point where she couldn't take it anymore, regardless of financial security I guess.

[Fuzzysox]

The Willis grandparents are millionaires. Brenda could have run to them. I doubt they would have denied her. Scott and Janet seem very warm and loving they would have taken the whole clan in. There certainly has to be more to this story that we aren't getting.

[Scarlett45]

17 minutes ago, Fuzzysox said:

The Willis grandparents are millionaires. Brenda could have run to them. I doubt they would have denied her. Scott and Janet seem very warm and loving they would have taken the whole clan in. There certainly has to be more to this story that we aren't getting.

His parents? I don’t know. Many would’ve helped but many would’ve stood by their son no matter what a sick fuck he was. 

These types start young and don’t stop. Not saying his parents knew anything but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did (issues with girls complaining about his behavior when he was a teen etc). 

[awaken]

On 4/13/2018 at 3:18 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Gil Bates: Don't go on vacation. Come to a Family Conference instead (video). This should dispel any doubts about the Bateses loosening up on their beliefs. 

https://iblp.org/seminars-conferences/family-conferences

Ha. I love how it lists “hands-on workshops”. I’m really curious about what could be taught hands-on at this family conference!  I’m picturing all kinds of fun stuff!!  Tater tot casserole making demo?  Sweet potato raw beef plop casserole?  Other hands-on marital and helpmeet skills??

[madpsych78]

20 minutes ago, awaken said:

Ha. I love how it lists “hands-on workshops”. I’m really curious about what could be taught hands-on at this family conference!  I’m picturing all kinds of fun stuff!!  Tater tot casserole making demo?  Sweet potato raw beef plop casserole?  Other hands-on marital and helpmeet skills??

Ew.

[yogi2014L]

1 hour ago, Fuzzysox said:

The Willis grandparents are millionaires. Brenda could have run to them. I doubt they would have denied her. Scott and Janet seem very warm and loving they would have taken the whole clan in. There certainly has to be more to this story that we aren't getting.

I doubt it. I think the combination of the isolation, fucked up family dynamics, religious brainwashing, loyalty to her family( yes it is possible to love your abusers) would make it so hard  to leave. Especially for a young girl.  For most normal people we hear this and think " why didn't she run?" It truly isn't that easy.

She is incredibly brave and strong to have left and when she did, not to mention going public...good for her. Women in this cult are literally trapped. it is sad .

Edited April 14, 2018 by yogi2014L

[Temperance]

44 minutes ago, yogi2014L said:

I doubt it. I think the combination of the isolation, fucked up family dynamics, religious brainwashing, loyalty to her family( yes it is possible to love your abusers) would make it so hard  to leave. Especially for a young girl.  For most normal people we hear this and think " why didn't she run?" It truly isn't that easy.

She is incredibly brave and strong to have left and when she did, not to mention going public...good for her. Women in this cult are literally trapped. it is sad .

 

Brenda is the mother, not the daughter. The Willis kids all have J- names, like the Duggars. 

On the issue of why didn't she turn to her in-laws, it's hard to say how people will react to learning the truth. The in-laws/grandparents could have believed her and their grandchildren or backed their son. They could have thought prayer and repentence would fix everything. They could have encouraged her to go back maybe with safe guards in place. They could have decided to protend nothing happened. Anything could have happened? Just because people seem warm doesn't mean they are, especially when dealing with an extremely diffcult situation. 

Edited to add: I don't know them and I don't know anything about the in-laws. Just thoughts based on human nature. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by Temperance

[Mollie]

Jessica Willis says she remembers her father abusing her when she was 3-years-old.

This is her story: https://www.jessicawillisfisher.com/

[Normades]

After reading what Jessica had to say, it seems pretty clear that their mother knew about the abuse and turned a blind eye, allowing it to continue and sacrificing more and more of her daughters.  I'm glad Jessica has found the strength to speak out and is not toeing the family line.  I watched a few minutes of the show once and found them  boring.  I disliked their "aren't we wonderful" attitude.  Toby is a monster, no doubt, but Brenda facilitated the abuse.  Her acceptance of the idea that men lead and women follow is part of what allows horrible things to happen.  I wouldn't be surprised if she continues in this belief and is allowing one of the older boys to take on the dominant male role in the family.  The belief in the inferiority of half of the population along with the isolation seems to be a recipe for abuse. 

Jessica is a hero and I hope she can be a role model for her siblings.  

[louannems]

This was posted publicly on Jill Rod's church's website.

Edited April 15, 2018 by louannems

[DragonFaerie]

Who the eff LOVES the sound of a vacuum???

[Temperance]

52 minutes ago, DragonFaerie said:

Who the eff LOVES the sound of a vacuum???

Newborns are known to be fond of the vacuum. Vacuums make white noise, which is similar to what they hear before they're born. 

It may depend on the vacuum itself as well. 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Temperance

[becca3891]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

His parents? I don’t know. Many would’ve helped but many would’ve stood by their son no matter what a sick fuck he was. 

These types start young and don’t stop. Not saying his parents knew anything but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did (issues with girls complaining about his behavior when he was a teen etc). 

True, Toby's parents may well have been unwilling to admit their son was a monster. But if Brenda truly wanted to escape, she had internet access and certainly could have contacted a crisis center that specializes in helping women (and children) escape an abuser.

I want to excuse her, but I keep coming back to the fact that she saw questionable sexual behavior from Toby when Jessica was NINE. Fourteen years passed, during which time Brenda had to have been denying what she knew in her heart to be true. There was a lot of vagueness to what Jessica wrote. I think it's because Brenda is being unwilling to acknowledge her complicity. I think she is claiming complete innocence, when the facts Jessica lays out don't agree. 

I honestly got sick to my stomach reading about her being chaperoned on outings with the man she was courting, all creepily enforced by Toby, the monster who had already subjected her unwillingly to the very sexual acts he was claiming to be shielding her from. Truly disgusting. And I do believe that Brenda continues clinging to harmful patriarchal doctrine. I was also sickened to read that she begged Jessica to stay, invoking their faith as a reason why what she was doing was a terrible thing. She is complicit. That is the moment when she should have encouraged her daughter to run, even if all she genuinely knew about were the beltings and beatings. That's enough right there. 

[Heathen]

Toby Willis got millions of dollars from his family's settlement with the state of Illinois. The total was $100 million; I've read that his parents got $40m of that and each of the three surviving siblings got $20m. No matter the actual dollar amount, Brenda Willis had funds available to escape and save her children. She doesn't even have money for an excuse. 

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, Heathen said:

Toby Willis got millions of dollars from his family's settlement with the state of Illinois. The total was $100 million; I've read that his parents got $40m of that and each of the three surviving siblings got $20m. No matter the actual dollar amount, Brenda Willis had funds available to escape and save her children. She doesn't even have money for an excuse. 

There's a go-fund-me for the family, although the family doesn't seem to have set it up and it's unclear how involved the family is with it. 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Temperance

[GeeGolly]

I recently watched a couple of BUBs episodes.

Did you all know only 9 people showed up to Erin's bridal shower? They planned for about 100 and only 9 people showed up. Did the Duggar girls have bridal showers? I'm only recalling baby showers.

On another episode Grandma Jane was lightly teasing Alyssa for being on track for 19 kids. Alyssa was unconvincingly saying no way. She had 3 kids in 3 years, I hope she knows she needs to actively prevent pregnancy in order to not get pregnant.

Every time I see a glimmer of mainstream living with both the Bates and the Duggars reality hits again.

[Barb23]

I wish we would have been given an explanation of why Erin had only 9 guests at her bridal shower where 100 people had been expected.  I know she was married in December, was the low turn out due to weather or a mix up in the date or time?  I would think between her church, school & music friends, more than 9 would have shown up. 

[GeeGolly]

15 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

I wish we would have been given an explanation of why Erin had only 9 guests at her bridal shower where 100 people had been expected.  I know she was married in December, was the low turn out due to weather or a mix up in the date or time?  I would think between her church, school & music friends, more than 9 would have shown up. 

Kelly laughingly said they have no idea why no one showed up. Very curious.

[ginger90]

I just hope the Rodrigues family comprehends what they are told by medical personnel. I have my doubts.

[doodlebug]

7 hours ago, louannems said:

This was posted publicly on Jill Rod's church's website.

I’m glad to know that Jill is following up with the specialists and seems committed to working with them to help her daughter in any way possible.  So much better than other fundies’ ‘sit back and pray that Jesus does all the work’ approach.

[Fuzzysox]

Janessa is a cutie.

[Fuzzysox]

7 hours ago, becca3891 said:

True, Toby's parents may well have been unwilling to admit their son was a monster. But if Brenda truly wanted to escape, she had internet access and certainly could have contacted a crisis center that specializes in helping women (and children) escape an abuser.

I want to excuse her, but I keep coming back to the fact that she saw questionable sexual behavior from Toby when Jessica was NINE. Fourteen years passed, during which time Brenda had to have been denying what she knew in her heart to be true. There was a lot of vagueness to what Jessica wrote. I think it's because Brenda is being unwilling to acknowledge her complicity. I think she is claiming complete innocence, when the facts Jessica lays out don't agree. 

I honestly got sick to my stomach reading about her being chaperoned on outings with the man she was courting, all creepily enforced by Toby, the monster who had already subjected her unwillingly to the very sexual acts he was claiming to be shielding her from. Truly disgusting. And I do believe that Brenda continues clinging to harmful patriarchal doctrine. I was also sickened to read that she begged Jessica to stay, invoking their faith as a reason why what she was doing was a terrible thing. She is complicit. That is the moment when she should have encouraged her daughter to run, even if all she genuinely knew about were the beltings and beatings. That's enough right there. 

I can't with Brenda. Like I said she wanted to be a teacher which would make her a mandated reporter. Just because Toby was her husband didn't make the abuse any less. She could have gotten out and protected her daughters but she didn't. She'll have to live with that fact for the rest of her life. Jessica not going back to her family is very telling of the rage she must have felt when her mother did nothing to stop the abuse. Like I tell my daughters sitting around crying ain't gonna fix things. 

[Lukeysboat]

8 hours ago, DragonFaerie said:

 

Who the eff LOVES the sound of a vacuum???

 

One of my daughters loved the vacuum as a baby. She also liked the white noise of the dishwasher. 

Someone mentioned earlier that Tori Bates has been less than pleasant recently. Is this on the show?

[LilJen]

9 hours ago, DragonFaerie said:

Who the eff LOVES the sound of a vacuum???

I had a dog who loved the sound of a vacuum. . . because she could attack it (she barked and barked and would bite it, to the point that she in fact put a hole in one vacuum).

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I recently watched a couple of BUBs episodes.

Did you all know only 9 people showed up to Erin's bridal shower? They planned for about 100 and only 9 people showed up. Did the Duggar girls have bridal showers? I'm only recalling baby showers.

On another episode Grandma Jane was lightly teasing Alyssa for being on track for 19 kids. Alyssa was unconvincingly saying no way. She had 3 kids in 3 years, I hope she knows she needs to actively prevent pregnancy in order to not get pregnant.

Every time I see a glimmer of mainstream living with both the Bates and the Duggars reality hits again.

Who invites 100 people to a baby shower? Who has that many close friends? Do the Bates have the same definition of "friend" as the Duggars?

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

I’m glad to know that Jill is following up with the specialists and seems committed to working with them to help her daughter in any way possible.  So much better than other fundies’ ‘sit back and pray that Jesus does all the work’ approach.

Yes, although I think we all can still live without her RANDOM capitalization of SO MANY words.

We had neighbors with a boy born with agenesis of the corpus callosum--similar to what Jill R is describing. Their boy took yearrrrrrrsssss to progress (as in, sitting, standing, walking), and they used all kinds of therapies to help him. But it is one of those conditions that you never know exactly how a kiddo will be affected until some time has passed. The brain can compensate in many ways, but sometimes it doesn't.

Edited April 15, 2018 by LilJen

[bigskygirl]

1 hour ago, LilJen said:

I had a dog who loved the sound of a vacuum. . . because she could attack it (she barked and barked and would bite it, to the point that she in fact put a hole in one vacuum).

Who invites 100 people to a baby shower? Who has that many close friends? Do the Bates have the same definition of "friend" as the Duggars?

Yes, although I think we all can still live without her RANDOM capitalization of SO MANY words.

We had neighbors with a boy born with agenesis of the corpus callosum--similar to what Jill R is describing. Their boy took yearrrrrrrsssss to progress (as in, sitting, standing, walking), and they used all kinds of therapies to help him. But it is one of those conditions that you never know exactly how a kiddo will be affected until some time has passed. The brain can compensate in many ways, but sometimes it doesn't.

To get more presents and to prove they have a lot of friends.

[Heathen]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I recently watched a couple of BUBs episodes.

Did you all know only 9 people showed up to Erin's bridal shower? They planned for about 100 and only 9 people showed up. Did the Duggar girls have bridal showers? I'm only recalling baby showers.

On another episode Grandma Jane was lightly teasing Alyssa for being on track for 19 kids. Alyssa was unconvincingly saying no way. She had 3 kids in 3 years, I hope she knows she needs to actively prevent pregnancy in order to not get pregnant.

Every time I see a glimmer of mainstream living with both the Bates and the Duggars reality hits again.

Maybe the low attendance at her shower was people's way of passive-aggressively hitting back at Erin's snotty princess attitude. Or maybe they wanted better food than gherkins on sticks or whatever the Bateses serve at events. 

Alyssa may very well end up with double-digit kids if she doesn't actively prevent pregnancy. I'd lol. She's no less fundie than Erin even if Alyssa does dress more modernly. And they both have the same snotty attitude. 

[GeeGolly]

5 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Maybe the low attendance at her shower was people's way of passive-aggressively hitting back at Erin's snotty princess attitude. Or maybe they wanted better food than gherkins on sticks or whatever the Bateses serve at events. 

Alyssa may very well end up with double-digit kids if she doesn't actively prevent pregnancy. I'd lol. She's no less fundie than Erin even if Alyssa does dress more modernly. And they both have the same snotty attitude. 

I wish Grandma Janie straight up asked her how she was going to control her family size. Erin truly thinks she doesn't have a say in the matter. I wonder if Alyssa thinks you need to pray or quit having sex?

[Heathen]

Alyssa apparently has fairly easy pregnancies and deliveries. She apparently has no trouble returning to her pre-pregnancy figure. She gets lots and lots of attention (which we all know was probably in short supply in her family of origin) with each kid. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Alyssa kept having kids and then hit a wall when she already had too many to easily manage. I hope for her kids' sake that she shuts the baby factory before then (now would be a good time). Get an IUD, Alyssa. Get an implant. Make your husband get a vasectomy. If you don't think about the kids you already have, think about what your life will be like when you're not even thirty and you've got eight. 

[Marshmallow Mollie]

I find it odd Alyssa would have a large family when she doesn’t appear to have liked growing up in one. And yet, she's had back to back pregnancies.

[Heathen]

Back to back to back! She may not plan to have a large family, but if she isn't proactive about stopping it, she will probably end up with many kids. She's 23, married less than four years, and has three kids three and under; other than her age, I think she's outpacing her mother, even. And bluntly speaking, neither Alyssa nor Lurch seems bright enough to put two and two together, as in realizing they're going to end up broke, crowded, and with ten kids if they keep going like this. 

[Scarlett45]

50 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Alyssa apparently has fairly easy pregnancies and deliveries. She apparently has no trouble returning to her pre-pregnancy figure. She gets lots and lots of attention (which we all know was probably in short supply in her family of origin) with each kid. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Alyssa kept having kids and then hit a wall when she already had too many to easily manage. I hope for her kids' sake that she shuts the baby factory before then (now would be a good time). Get an IUD, Alyssa. Get an implant. Make your husband get a vasectomy. If you don't think about the kids you already have, think about what your life will be like when you're not even thirty and you've got eight. 

 

15 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Back to back to back! She may not plan to have a large family, but if she isn't proactive about stopping it, she will probably end up with many kids. She's 23, married less than four years, and has three kids three and under; other than her age, I think she's outpacing her mother, even. And bluntly speaking, neither Alyssa nor Lurch seems bright enough to put two and two together, as in realizing they're going to end up broke, crowded, and with ten kids if they keep going like this. 

I think by the time Alyssa hits baby 5 or 6 in the next 3-4 years with no additional help (like sister Moms or nannies) she may opt for a tubal or ask her husband to get a vasectomy. Remember it was at child 7 (Joseph) that Michelle had a her laundry room breakdown.

 

To US 3 kids at 23 may be a lot but to her it’s a “shrug”. 

[queenanne]

9 hours ago, LilJen said:

I had a dog who loved the sound of a vacuum. . . because she could attack it (she barked and barked and would bite it, to the point that she in fact put a hole in one vacuum).

Who invites 100 people to a baby shower? Who has that many close friends? Do the Bates have the same definition of "friend" as the Duggars?

Yes, although I think we all can still live without her RANDOM capitalization of SO MANY words.

We had neighbors with a boy born with agenesis of the corpus callosum--similar to what Jill R is describing. Their boy took yearrrrrrrsssss to progress (as in, sitting, standing, walking), and they used all kinds of therapies to help him. But it is one of those conditions that you never know exactly how a kiddo will be affected until some time has passed. The brain can compensate in many ways, but sometimes it doesn't.

I was going to say, I feel like I've read something about how brain connections can knit together on the run to compensate for partial (or sometimes 100%) inefficiencies.  Comes with caveats of course, like "some areas can't bridge the connection if 100% of the section of brain that does its job is missing", but rare exceptions even then:

http://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/the-medical-mystery-of-a-man-living-with-90-of-his-brain-missing

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/remarkable-story-of-maths-genius-who-had-almost-no-brain-1.1026845?mode=amp

[DkNNy79]

4 hours ago, Heathen said:

Alyssa apparently has fairly easy pregnancies and deliveries. She apparently has no trouble returning to her pre-pregnancy figure. She gets lots and lots of attention (which we all know was probably in short supply in her family of origin) with each kid. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Alyssa kept having kids and then hit a wall when she already had too many to easily manage. I hope for her kids' sake that she shuts the baby factory before then (now would be a good time). Get an IUD, Alyssa. Get an implant. Make your husband get a vasectomy. If you don't think about the kids you already have, think about what your life will be like when you're not even thirty and you've got eight. 

I can’t imagine taking care of 3 small kids at home by myself.  I just had my first child in November and I couldn’t wait to go back to work.  

I was so sleep deprived just watching him (one child).  I was able to function somehow but I can’t imagine how I would handle 3.

[Lunera]

12 hours ago, Lukeysboat said:

Someone mentioned earlier that Tori Bates has been less than pleasant recently. Is this on the show?

In recent episodes filmed during her wedding planning she's coming of as bitchy and rude. She seemed ungrateful during her shower and disinterested in her bachelorette party and spent it apart from everyone on her phone, while everyone else participated in the activities.