S08.E18: The Leftover Thermalization

[Beach Party]

The ketchup packets didn't fit with Mrs. W's character.  She wasn't a take-out eater or frugal miser.  Seems like she would've had a giant container of it.

[SmithW6079]

there were times when he was extremely frustrated with her,

He was more than frustrated with her. He openly mocked her to his friends. He didn't even have enough respect for her not to shout at her in front of his friends. He wished for her death, he insulted her weight, he resented her kindness to one of their friends going through a hard time.

I don't think Howard was a particularly good son, at least not as an adult. I think the main reason he never left home is because he was lazy. He had someone to cook for him, clean for him, do his laundry, make his lunch, who didn't charge him room and board, who apparently didn't care if he brought girls over for sex; why would he leave that?

Edited March 14, 2015 by SmithW6079

[sinkwriter]

I'm not saying he was the greatest son, or that he wasn't behaving like a lazy bum or an asshole at times (especially in regard to his resentment of her helping Stuart). I'm just saying that I still think the showrunners have demonstrated times throughout the series where he did talk about his love for her, and how they only had each other, so I don't see this episode (or the series of episodes since Ms. Susi's death) as a retcon of Howard's relationship with his mother.

 

There were many facets to their relationship. It's just that the awful stuff was more prevalent, and mined for jokes. But that doesn't negate the occasional times when Howard acknowledged his mother as someone very important to him.

[CherryAmes]

He didn't even have enough respect for not to shout at her in front of his friends.

 

He learned this behavior at his mother's knee.  The whole point of his mother even being written into the series was to have her shouting at Howard every time she "appeared".  Offhand I can only think of one or two times when she wasn't shouting, it's how the Wolowitz's communicated.

[shapeshifter]

The ketchup packets didn't fit with Mrs. W's character.  She wasn't a take-out eater or frugal miser.  Seems like she would've had a giant container of it.

Heh. You must not have had a mother like I imagine Mrs. Wolowitz to be. Beneath the magnanimous generosity was the insecurity of having no doubt grown up with very little disposable income.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Beneath the magnanimous generosity was the insecurity of having no doubt grown up with very little disposable income.

I think the point is that her style of restaurant would have ketchup bottles rather than packets. In one episode, Howard described being at a fast food restaurant with her when he was young. Maybe we just didn't hear of her more recent visits (or the packets in the kitchen were really old).

[CherryAmes]

I think the point is that Mrs Wolowitz was always portrayed as being an elderly woman - even when IMO she really couldn't have been all that old, mid to late 50s tops.  Anyway one of the things that are often considered a hallmark of the elderly is that they throw nothing out.  And once in awhile if you are as big a glutton as we are led to believe Mrs Wolowitz was you are going to eat in fast food places or have that kind of food delivered and even if they send stuff like ketchup or soya sauce or salt that you have in the house, even if it's stuff you will never use yourself, you keep it.  And you keep it forever!  Why yes I happened to be related to a few elderly people who do this :).

Edited March 14, 2015 by CherryAmes

[theatremouse]

But usually he only explains when she asks or it's otherwise obvious she doesn't understand. Here he just assumed that she doesn't know what those things are and explained them preemptively.

I disagree. I think it's very like him to automatically "explain" things to her if it's something he assumes she won't know, which often includes things she does and is often condescending. Those moments didn't strike me as remotely inconsistent with past episodes.

 

The knowing pi to a thousand places thing is such a good example of something smart people don't waste their time on, but pop culture thinks is a smart person thing to do.

It depends. There are plenty of smart people who don't/wouldn't memorize however many digits of pi because there are plenty of smart people who either aren't advanced in math or just plain not especially interested in math, even if they're good at it. Memorizing lots of digits of pi isn't so much a smart person thing to do as it is a very nerdy thing to do. I can name half a dozen sceintist friends who all at some point in high school memorized a ton of pi (and sort of had a competition amongst themselves to see how far they'd get). I don't know if they still remember it, but all were well beyond 50 digits. It made sense to me that Sheldon would be such a person, since I know so many of them. It's not something you spend time learning as an adult. It's something you do as a kid, and if you're someone like Sheldon, I'm not surprised it'd still stick.

[Latverian Diplomat]

. It's something you do as a kid, and if you're someone like Sheldon, I'm not surprised it'd still stick.

 

That's a good point, I didn't think that it might be something young Sheldon had done. And he does claim to be eidetic (though that's something that doesn't seem to actually exist) so he could have just been showing that off (again!)

 

But Sheldon now knows probably dozens of facts about pi that are more interesting than that, it would have been more interesting and more typical of an adult for Sheldon to be talking about those. 

Edited March 14, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[The Kings Foot]

Apparantly the Pi joke was because of this  . Pi day is Today!!!

 

Pi Day is an annual American-based celebration commemorating the mathematical constant π (pi). Pi Day is observed on March 14, since 3, 1, and 4 are the first three significant digits of π in decimal form.

 

Edited March 14, 2015 by The Kings Foot

[CleoCaesar]

The knowing pi to a thousand places thing is such a good example of something smart people don't waste their time on, but pop culture thinks is a smart person thing to do.

 

Heh. Well this is the show that seems to think intellect = knowing a lot about comic books, sooo...

[PinkRibbons]

It's an extra-special Pi Day because it's 2015, meaning it's 3.14.15. As I kid I learned this much pi: 3.14159.

 

But then I was more a reader than a mathematician.

[sinkwriter]

Mmmm... pie. Maybe I'll crack open one of my cookbooks and make one in honor of Pi Day. 

[WickedTuna]

I didn't feel the emotional impact as much as I thought I would because I hated Leonard and Sheldon throughout. Is it possible, for any duration, to have Leonard be happy about something? I'm really getting tired of his constant misery.

This x about a million. Ruined the whole episode for me. It could have been a really sweet episode.

I wonder how a highlight episode would have worked out. Maybe they could have done some with Susi's voice but did a few sweet ones with a fill-in. I know there had to be sweet moments in the relationship too. I can't remember which show it was but they talked about how nasty the divorce was and said at one time the love must have been just as great.

I never thought I'd say this but I wish they would end the show after this season. Go out on a high (semi-high?) note guys. End it while I still have love for it.

[MaryMitch]

I think the point is that Mrs Wolowitz was always portrayed as being an elderly woman - even when IMO she really couldn't have been all that old, mid to late 50s tops.  Anyway one of the things that are often considered a hallmark of the elderly is that they throw nothing out.  And once in awhile if you are as big a glutton as we are led to believe Mrs Wolowitz was you are going to eat in fast food places or have that kind of food delivered and even if they send stuff like ketchup or soya sauce or salt that you have in the house, even if it's stuff you will never use yourself, you keep it.  And you keep it forever!  Why yes I happened to be related to a few elderly people who do this :).

 

I never thought she was elderly. I know a lot of people who keep those little packets, and I'm one of them. My whole family seems to keep things because "someday, you never know, you might need them." I think it comes from my parents who lived through the Depression.  In fact, last weekend the "Hints from Heloise" column in my paper (maybe I am old, I still get a paper) had a question about condiment packets: http://www.sacbee.com/entertainment/living/home-garden/article11350061.html

[LoneHaranguer]

 

And once in awhile if you are as big a glutton as we are led to believe Mrs Wolowitz was you are going to eat in fast food places or have that kind of food delivered and even if they send stuff like ketchup or soya sauce or salt that you have in the house, even if it's stuff you will never use yourself, you keep it.

I would have expected her to hit up a buffet restaurant instead. If you go early on a week day it's about the same price as a "value" meal at a fast food restaurant. Her choice for special occasions was Olive Garden which has often advertised never-ending pasta bowls or other all-you-can-eat deals.In either case, I could see her filling her purse with something, but it wouldn't be ketchup packets.

[SmithW6079]

I wonder how a highlight episode would have worked out.

I don't think it would have worked. The only times we ever heard Mrs Wolowitz, she was shouting at Howard. Edited March 14, 2015 by SmithW6079

[CherryAmes]

I never thought she was elderly.

 

Me neither but I remember a lot of conversation over at the TWOP board about her being elderly - the argument being made was that she had Howard late in life (although that was never stated on the show as far as I can remember) and that because Howard and Bernadette seemed to be waiting for her to die that means she must be quite old.  I think she was just in ill health due to a variety of reasons and this was misinterpreted as her being old.  On the other hand since she never seemed to work or leave the house much I don't think it's too surprising that people would assume she was older than she probably was.  The writers didn't help by portraying her the way they did.

[needschocolate]

When did Penny change her hair? It was short at the beginning of the season but now it is "frosted": and had a Anne Burrell "flair" to it.  Actually, she reminds me of Kate Gosseln from the early years of  "Jon and Kate Plus 8"

[needschocolate]

It's an extra-special Pi Day because it's 2015, meaning it's 3.14.15. As I kid I learned this much pi: 3.14159.

It is even more special at 9:26 am/pm today - making it 3.1415926 (I did a google search to get the number - I am apparently too smart to memorize it - lol).  In the past (and for the next 99 years), pi geeks had to settle for 1:59 am/pm and leave out the year - 3.14159

Edited March 15, 2015 by needschocolate

[theatremouse]

When did Penny change her hair? It was short at the beginning of the season but now it is "frosted": and had a Anne Burrell "flair" to it.  Actually, she reminds me of Kate Gosseln from the early years of  "Jon and Kate Plus 8"

I don't know when she changed the color, although she seems to do that regularly. In terms of styling it just looks to me like her shorter 'do from the summer hiatus is growing out at a natural pace, and thus gets styled slightly differently as it does so.

[anna0852]

Yeah, her hair is definitely growing out. I'm glad to see it. I'm really not a fan of the short look. I thought the long hair was much more flattering.

[truebluesmoky]

How old is Howard supposed to be? If he's thirty, she could have easily been in her early 70s.

[chocolatine]

How old is Howard supposed to be? If he's thirty, she could have easily been in her early 70s.

 

Howard was 26 in S1 and 27 in S2; I don't remember him mentioning his age after that. If every season corresponds to a year, he's 33 now. I agree Mrs. W probably had him late and was in her 70s when she died.

[CherryAmes]

It's certainly possible of course but since her age was never really mentioned I don't think she was any older than most women who have a 33 yr old  child would be, I'd say somewhere in her 60s.  She enjoyed, and I mean enjoyed! ill health for years and her extreme weight certainly contributed to her problems.  I recall Howard talking once about how his family invented heart conditions and dropped dead in their 50s - I'm pretty sure he was thinking of his mom when he said that!  At any rate we might get a clue as to how old his mother was in a future episode as apparently someone from her past either appears or is alluded to so we shall see.

[Taylorh2]

Was Howard's mother ever seen ?

[wendyg]

Honestly, I think the ketchup packets were because the current showrunner watched FRIENDS in his teenaged years and was thinking of the sugar/sweetener packets Ross's and Monica's Nana saved in those shoeboxes at the top of her closet.

 

As for Scientific American, that story made me almost as nuts as watching two physicists and an engineer hang out in front of a freezer they're worried is defrosting WITH THE DOOR OPEN for what seemed like months. Any story in the printed magazine would likely have been on the Web site first and corrected then. In fact, I wrote a story for them last year in which exactly the same situation happened: I cited the lead researcher, whom I spoke to; he emailed shortly after publication to say that a good bit of the analysis and other ideas came from a colleague and could we add his name to the story? We added the colleague's name and also a full citation of the paper, which had both names on it. Granted, most people won't know that...

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Was Howard's mother ever seen ?

Just briefly, scurrying by her open kitchen door in one episode.

[peeayebee]

It was so funny how the audience gasped. Heck, I did too. It was like the scene in Signs when the alien is seen at the kids party.

[barbedwire]

I had always guessed that Howard's mom was about 30 years older than he was.  But maybe the reason he was an only child is because she had trouble conceiving children and he came about in her late 30s or at age 40/41.

[Calamity Jane]

But only to a point.  If you have a gas stove you can use the cooktop by lighting it with a match once you turn on the gas.  But a gas oven is different.  Our old stove could be lit by hand, but the thermostat wouldn't work because it requires electricity.  So it just continues to heats until you turn off the gas.  You cannot regulate the temperature at all.  Our new stove is more "modern" and can't even be lit by hand.

 

Add me to the list of people who are glad that Emily wasn't there.  I want Raj to be happy, but I just don't see the two of them staying together (fingers crossed).

 

One of the greatest disappointments in my life is that my grandmothers both had recipes written on cards and scraps of paper but they just listed ingredients.  Neither of them had measurements or directions.  My husband's family, on the other hand, has cookbooks with detailed notes written in the margins.  Guess whose recipes are getting passed down to my children.

My mom was good about directions most of the time, but my grandmother - oh my stars, her directions were "mix until it feels right," or "cook it until it's done right."  She was the best-ever cook, but absolutely not a teacher!  I have a cookbook dating from about 1900 from their tiny little town, and some of the recipes start out with directions such as, "Pick out a good chicken, wring its neck,gut it, pluck it," etc.  And no degree temperatures for cooking at all, just low, medium, or hot stove/oven.  

[kat165]

We also got a brief glimpse of Mrs. W when Howard & Bernie got married in the rooftop. She was kind of a blob in the corner when they panned out. It was quick and easy to miss though.

Edited March 18, 2015 by kat165

[shapeshifter]

I had always guessed that Howard's mom was about 30 years older than he was.  But maybe the reason he was an only child is because she had trouble conceiving children and he came about in her late 30s or at age 40/41.

Me too, but I was afraid to post that, because it could also be that she had one child and then had to have a hysterectomy, or, as was common in the 70s, while in the middle of a difficult labor she was told a C-section was in order and was offered a free tubal litigation, or Mr. Wolowitz got snipped, or....

[Enjay]

If we assume Mrs. Wolowitz was really huge (in the over 300 category), living into her 70s would have been unlikely.  The bigger she was, the younger she would have died.

[CherryAmes]

I always assumed she had to be 300+ just based on the fat jokes but of course this is a Hollywood sitcom, she could easily have weighed less than 200 lbs and they probably still would have been making the same jokes.  I mean everyone knows a woman who weighs more than 10 lbs over her "ideal" weight is a big ole fatty (insert rolling eyes here).

[needschocolate]

I have a cookbook dating from about 1900 from their tiny little town, and some of the recipes start out with directions such as, "Pick out a good chicken, wring its neck,gut it, pluck it," etc.  And no degree temperatures for cooking at all, just low, medium, or hot stove/oven.  

 

I had a cookbook from the mid-1800's (1860's, I think) - "Mrs. Lincoln's Cookbook" or something close to that.  They cooked in a wood burning stove/oven back then and the book has a page near the beginning describing  how to determine if your oven is warm or medium or hot - it is based on how long you can hold your hand in it.  I baked one cake from that old cookbook - could have used it as a doorstop. 

[Calamity Jane]

I had a cookbook from the mid-1800's (1860's, I think) - "Mrs. Lincoln's Cookbook" or something close to that.  They cooked in a wood burning stove/oven back then and the book has a page near the beginning describing  how to determine if your oven is warm or medium or hot - it is based on how long you can hold your hand in it.  I baked one cake from that old cookbook - could have used it as a doorstop. 

Yes, these recipes were all for wood-burning stoves/ovens too.  It makes me wonder how they ever had edible food, and also fills me with admiration for the cooks who mastered the intricacies!

[LoneHaranguer]

 

If we assume Mrs. Wolowitz was really huge (in the over 300 category), living into her 70s would have been unlikely.  The bigger she was, the younger she would have died.

The primary risk factor is being sedentary, not big. The two usually go together, but we've been lead to believe that Mrs, W kept active. I knew someone like that who was still going strong until she was a victim of a car accident in her 80's.

[springtime]

 

but we've been lead to believe that Mrs, W kept active.

Yep-  We've heard jokes about her aqua aerobic class (and since I do aqua aerobics- I didn't find them funny)

[Oldernowiser]

I always assumed she had to be 300+ just based on the fat jokes but of course this is a Hollywood sitcom, she could easily have weighed less than 200 lbs and they probably still would have been making the same jokes.  I mean everyone knows a woman who weighs more than 10 lbs over her "ideal" weight is a big ole fatty (insert rolling eyes here).

And any woman over 50 is a crone.

[kili]

Granted, most people won't know that...

We probably need a thread like that. They frequently take advantage of the fact that most people won't know that. Sheldon would live in that thread.

 

Interesting to hear how it really would have gone down.

[SpiritSong]

I never thought she was elderly. I know a lot of people who keep those little packets, and I'm one of them. My whole family seems to keep things because "someday, you never know, you might need them." I think it comes from my parents who lived through the Depression.  In fact, last weekend the "Hints from Heloise" column in my paper (maybe I am old, I still get a paper) had a question about condiment packets: http://www.sacbee.com/entertainment/living/home-garden/article11350061.html

Yes, I have found that I've absorbed my parents Depression era attitudes about never wasting anything. But the reason I take ketchup packets from restaurants is that I don't like ketchup and never buy it. It's handy to have something to offer my guests who want ketchup. I do limit them to about 10 or so though.

[CherryAmes]

Just rewatched this episode as my husband hadn't seen it when it first aired.  One thing that I liked that I hadn't noticed first time around was the way they handled Penny wanting to give Leonard a nice gift to make him feel better.  So much better done than when they had Bernadette giving Howard a freaking rolex and basically treating him like a pampered pet.  Penny was clearly doing what Penny would always do - go shopping - but at the same time she was genuinely trying to make Leonard feel better.  Much better way to deal with her having more money than the way they've done it with Bernadette.

[John Potts]

I thought as a memorial to the late Carol Ann Susi, it was fitting tribute. I have no trouble believing (despite his constant carping at her) that Howard loved his mother. As for her age - well, CAS was 62 when she died, which seems about right for Mrs W. It would mean she had Howard rather late (in her 30s), but not especially improbable.

 

CherryAmes  she could easily have weighed less than 200 lbs and they probably still would have been making the same jokes

 

I think you're being optimistic at drawing the line at 200lbs!

 

But I hated the Sheldon/Leonard feud, because while Sheldon has no empathy, he does understand the notion of scientific credit (at least intellectually). In the Cooper-Nowitzki Theorem, (the one with Riki "Garfunkle" Lindholm), he freaks out at the idea of giving somebody else credit when it was "his" idea. Suddenly he has no idea why Sheldon is upset? Sorry, don't buy it.

 

Latverian Diplomat Also, if Sheldon wrote a letter to the editor explaining that Leonard was a collaborator and not a subordinate they would surely publish it in a future issue letter column.

 

I thought that would be a much better way to deal with the issue - have it published as lead article as "The Cooper Theorem" and have them print a correction on page 50 of the next issue. Leonard could (rightly) complain that Sheldon had stolen his thunder, but it's inconsistent for Sheldon not to understand why. It would also require an implausibly fast turnaround for Scientific American to fit the article and retraction in a single episode, but fudging the passage of time is done all over the place.