Tennis Thread

[dcalley]

I remember being relieved at the end of the Clijsters-S. Williams match in 2009 that it was the semifinal and not the final, because wouldn't it be awful to have your U.S. Open championship overshadowed like that? Sigh. I was enjoying this final so much and was happy Osaka was playing so well, and--ugh, it's just such a shame. Osaka deserved to enjoy her moment.

[roseha]

I doubt this will ever happen but after today I hope Serena fires Patrick.  He isn't helping her by making ridiculous statements, either saying "everyone does it so it's okay" (coaching) or "that shouldn't be against the rules" (racket abuse).    He also was indulging in the Boris Becker / Ion Tiriac school of mind games before the final, telling Pam how badly Naomi played in Cincinnati.  Am I the only person who thinks it's a conflict to interview these coaches during a Slam final in the first place?

Edited September 9, 2018 by roseha
Rewrite.

[BitterApple]

Patrick's full of crap because if Osaka got caught receiving signals or smashed her racket and wasn't called for it, you know damn well he'd complain. 

I've never liked him to begin with. I've always thought he was smarmy and self-serving. I know Serena's had great success with him, but I don't know, I feel like tonight may have been a tipping point. I think he needs Serena more than she needs him, so it will be interesting to see where she goes from here.

[Jillibean]

8 hours ago, roseha said:

I doubt this will ever happen but after today I hope Serena fires Patrick.

 

Serena’s point of contention with Patrick is going to be that he admitted he was coaching, which completely undermines her entire outburst. It has to be embarrassing that she made such a big deal out of never cheating, wouldn’t set that example for her daughter, would rather lose, and after all that Patrick admits he was cheating. I think it’s pretty clear that Serena didn’t see his gesture, because if she had she would have known that she should just let it go rather than trying to argue it. It was clearly a gesture indicating what she should do, not a thumbs up. 

Apart from that though, I imagine she and Patrick think similarly. I do think he’s pretty on target about what she needs to work on, as well. He is accurate that her serve is still breaking down into an unforgivable mess under any sign of pressure. 

I don’t agree with Serena’s rant, but I do think it’s a far cry from the Clijsters match. In that instance, they had no choice but to call a violation because she had threatened someone (dropping an f bomb along the way for good measure). This one was a lot tamer, in my opinion. Sure, it was immature and in poor taste. But I completely agree that a warning would have been an appropriate course of action and that a reminder of where she was in the code of conduct violations would also have been a good way to handle it. I tend to agree with the ESPN team that Serena didn’t realize the coaching was a conduct violation and didn’t understand where she was in the penalty phase. To jump right to docking her a game, at 3-4 in the second set one set down in a championship match of a grand slam final just doesn’t seem like good umpiring. You have to let the players decide a final with their play. I thought this was a very reactive way to handle it.

I feel more for Naomi than Serena. She deserved to win of her own merit, and she would have. Now the whole thing is a mess.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Jillibean

[surreysmum]

8 hours ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

I think the biggest issue that I have with all of this is this whole characterization of Serena as “passionate” - I didn’t see somebody passionate out there, I saw someone acting like a five year old.  

This.

[Sarahsmile416]

7 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Patrick's full of crap because if Osaka got caught receiving signals or smashed her racket and wasn't called for it, you know damn well he'd complain. 

I've never liked him to begin with. I've always thought he was smarmy and self-serving. I know Serena's had great success with him, but I don't know, I feel like tonight may have been a tipping point. I think he needs Serena more than she needs him, so it will be interesting to see where she goes from here.

I tend to doubt she will do that because he is her enabler.  She can act any way she wants in a match and he will enable her and start railing against the system.  As long as he continues to applaud this and doesn’t call her on it, she has no reason to fire him. 

In a sense, the media is just as bad.  They eat up her sexism claims, echo her unfairness claims and so she has no reason to stop acting like she did. 

Its clear to me that she has some underlying anger issues that she should probably deal with at some point.  

Here’s the thing to me, after the first warning, I didn’t find any fault with her conversation with Ramos. She said her piece and that was it.  But then, she just wouldn’t let it go, demanding a public apology, etc.   This is the biggest problem in a nutshell.

[SrOfficial]

9 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

What I will also say is that I hate this social media driven culture we're in, where many are quick to jump on a bandwagon without doing any of their own homework. It's fine if people believe Ramos was excessive in awarding a game violation for what Serena said to him. But the sexism card people are trying to pull is ridiculous when you go through Ramos' history and realize he's given plenty of male players violations, including one to Andy Murray once for in Ramos' opinion, playing too slowly. 

And people, like Serena's coach, wanting to drag other players into this, like his mentioning how Ramos has umpired many of Rafa's finals and he apparently was getting coached all the time and never had a warning. Putting aside that Rafa has gotten time violation warnings from Ramos, I'm willing to bet that if he ever did get a coaching violation warning, he would LET IT FUCKING GO and not bitch for multiple games after. That's what Serena and her fans and supporters don't want to acknowledge.

That she allows herself to get too heated, she knows the rules, knows how this goes and still gets into some war of words and turns the whole thing into a shit show and then everyone wants to cry sexism and unfairness. This is just like when she lost to Clijsters in that semifinal and some pulled the "if Roger Federer had done this at a crucial time in the match, they wouldn't have allowed the match to end that way". And to that I said, "well when Roger Federer threatens to shove a ball down a linesperson's fucking throat, we can revisit this discussion". 

You said it all.

Overall, I'm so sick of spoiled brat athletes with a sense of entitlement.

9 hours ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

I think the biggest issue that I have with all of this is this whole characterization of Serena as “passionate” - I didn’t see somebody passionate out there, I saw someone acting like a five year old.  

Nobody moreso than her coach who tried to say that it should be legal to slam Her racket so hard that it broke.

if a baseball player threw his bat down or threw his helmet down in anger, there would be consequences, but according to him, Serena is above such things. ?

Yup!  Time to grow up.

[AshleyN]

I'll agree with those who said the person I felt for most last night was definitely Osaka. She played an incredible tournament, showed zero sign of nerves in her first major final, and most likely would have won anyway, only to have what should have been one of the best moments of her life stolen from her. Judging by her age and ability I don't think this is going to be her last win, so I really hope the next one ends better for her.

Regarding Serena, everyone seems to want to turn this into a hero or villain situation, but I dunno, is it possible to admit that she has very legitimate grievances with regard to how she's been treated by tennis establishment AND that she also has a history of not reacting to losing all that well? Like, there's zero question that she's had to deal with a LOT of bullshit that no white and/or male player of her stature would have had to, and that there have been times when she's been genuinely treated unfairly (didn't the challenge system literally become a thing due to a match where she was repeatedly screwed over on line calls?). But also, I don't think it's a coincidence that these meltdowns always seem to happen in similar situations -- when she runs into a player who's white hot and she can't find an answer for their play, whether it be Clijsters, Stosur, or now Osaka. She's an icon and is rightfully lauded for many things, but it shouldn't be a crime to admit that she has flaws.

When it comes to the chair umpire, I agree with a comment I saw that tennis officials desperately need to have some sort of get together to iron out just what is expected of them. Because while there's always some degree of interpretation involved in these things, right now there seems to be way to much that depends on the umpire's discretion. According to the rulebook all three of Serena's violations last night were justified, but I can understand why people would get upset when the whole situation unfolded in the same tournament where a different chair umpire literally climbed out of his chair to give a pep talk to a player. I do think some of the accusations being thrown at Carlos Ramos are unfair though, since people who follow tennis closely all seem to agree that he's known to be a stickler for the rules, and will basically call any infraction he sees regardless of who, when, or where. It was actually interesting that Serena's coach brought up Nadal in his interview, because I don't know about coaching violations but I'm almost certain that Ramos is one of the few umpires I've seen call Rafa on his (often egregious) time violations. Personally I'd prefer an official like that to one who lets things slide depending on the situation, which only leads to situations where players get used to getting away with things and feel like they're being treated unfairly when they actually get called on them (I've also never agreed with the idea of officials "playing to the score/situation" -- their job should be to enforce the rules, not decide when and where the rules apply). That being said, I also saw someone point out that the best officials tend to be the ones who are able to de-escalate tense situations rather than escalating them, and I don't think it would have hurt Ramos to have given Serena a soft warning before the third violation, even if it was just a reminder that the next one would cost her a game.

Edited September 9, 2018 by AshleyN

[Ohwell]

I really do believe that, despite all the brouhaha, Naomi was on the way to beating Serena anyway.  So it's not that Serena had the title taken away (I saw a USA today headline stating that), it's that Naomi clearly won it.  

[stillhere1900]

20 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I wouldn't want celebrities in my box either. I know they're Serena's friends, but I'd think it would create added pressure to perform because certain people are watching.

As far as the coaching violation, I don't think Serena's a cheater, but Patrick was totally telling her to come in to net, so the umpire wasn't out of line for issuing the warning.

It'll be interesting to see if Osaka can hold her nerve. The crowd is pro-Serena so it could be tough.

Oh, Lord here we go....

Every other sport allows coaches to "coach" the players from the sidelines Why not tennis ?

[halopub]

19 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I feel so bad for Osaka. I know a lot of it is cultural but I wish she would stop apologizing for winning!!! At least Serena told the damn crowd to stop booing. Osaka won that match, she killed it. I hope she’s able to truly celebrate it. This was the worst. 

If you watch her press conference, Osaka said last night that she still had no idea what had happened because the crowd was loud and her back was turned before getting ready to serve the next game. The mixed emotions at the trophy ceremony, including the apology was in part because she knew how much Serena wanted another Major: 

Quote

Q. Why did you feel like you needed to apologize for doing what you set out to do?

NAOMI OSAKA: Your question is making me emotional (tearing up).

Okay, because I know that, like, she really wanted to have the 24th Grand Slam, right? Everyone knows this. It's on the commercials, it's everywhere. Like, when I step onto the court, I feel like a different person, right? I'm not a Serena fan. I'm just a tennis player playing another tennis player.

But then when I hugged her at the net (tearing up)...

Anyway, when I hugged her at the net, I felt like a little kid again.

 

18 hours ago, Ohwell said:

And I can't stand Serena's coach either Patrick Mouglou or whateverthefuck his last name is, because she's his meal ticket and he's going to run this story into the ground.  He's already got a commenting gig off of being her coach. 

I'm not disputing that his tennis visibility has benefited immensely from the Serena coaching gig, but Mouratoglou apparently comes from money. As for whether he needs Serena to continue bolstering the academy's reputation, they already are working with upcoming talent, including the top two juniors and Tsitsipas. 

 

18 hours ago, bosawks said:

Does anyone remember the last time there was a game penalty in a Grand Slam final?

I’m watching with 5 people and we’ve got nothing.

We’re guessing McEnroe just because, McEnroe...

I haven't found game penalties yet, but there have been a couple of outright disqualifications in Majors. McEnroe in the fourth round of the 1990 Australian Open.... Tim Henman in doubles at 1995 Wimbledon for inadvertently hitting a ball at a ball girl. If I recall correctly, Jeff Tarango and his wife got into it with an umpire at the same tournament and he then was banned from Wimbledon the following year too.

 

2 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Regarding Serena, everyone seems to want to turn this into a hero or villain situation, but I dunno, is it possible to admit that she has very legitimate grievances with regard to how she's been treated by tennis establishment AND that she also has a history of not reacting to losing all that well? Like, there's zero question that she's had to deal with a LOT of bullshit that no white and/or male player of her stature would have had to, and that there have been times when she's been genuinely treated unfairly (didn't the challenge system literally become a thing due to a match where she was repeatedly screwed over on line calls?). But also, I don't think it's a coincidence that these meltdowns always seem to happen in similar situations -- when she runs into a player who's white hot and she can't find an answer for their play, whether it be Clijsters, Stosur, or now Osaka. She's an icon and is rightfully lauded for many things, but it shouldn't be a crime to admit that she has flaws.

 

I think you might agree with Slate's piece on this whole mess. Serena's been around so long, I'd actually forgotten the 2004 US Open quarterfinals with Capriati and how that helped institutionalize Hawk-Eye.

Edited September 9, 2018 by halopub
typo

[SrOfficial]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/09/us/serena-williams-sexism-tennis-controversy/index.html

[Bitsy]

3 hours ago, AshleyN said:

That being said, I also saw someone point out that the best officials tend to be the ones who are able to de-escalate tense situations rather than escalating them, and I don't think it would have hurt Ramos to have given Serena a soft warning before the third violation, even if it was just a reminder that the next one would cost her a game.

 

I agree with that.  Some soft warnings were in order, particularly as Serena had lost track of where she stood with the violations.  Most players will force themselves to calm down when they know they are risking a third violation.  And I have seen umpires calm down players in the midst of tantrums.  Ramos doesn't seem to have that personality.

But both of them are human beings.  Serena was offended because she felt the coaching violation was effectively branding her a cheater, but she directly attacked the umpire's integrity by calling him a liar and a thief who owed her an apology.  I can see why maybe he wasn't so inclined to go easy on her with a soft warning.

Ultimately, it's unfortunate that the whole second half of the second set was derailed by code violations.  Serena had just started to get a little momentum back when all of this happened, and the match stopped being about the play after that.  That's not how Grand Slam finals are supposed to be decided.  Serena and the umpire both are to blame for that IMO.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Bitsy

[truthaboutluv]

28 minutes ago, Bitsy said:

Ramos doesn't seem to have that personality.

This. Despite the fact that people have pulled up evidence of Ramos being kind of a stickler with rules with multiple players, people are still all over social media and the internet whinging and trying to label this man a racist and sexist. Many have pulled up his giving Venus an illegal coaching violation warning too but again, ignore all the other violation warnings he's given multiple players. Like his giving Djokovic two in the same match, one for time violation and later a racket abuse violation when Djokovic smashed his racket in frustration. And then the violation and later fine against Kyrgios in a match for verbally yelling at a ball boy. All of these things don't matter. Suddenly this man clearly had it out for Serena because she's a woman and black. 

And people claiming how McEnroe did so much in his career but never got treated this way. Except for how you know he was ejected from and essentially lost a match at the Australian Open for unsportsmanlike conduct and was the first player to have that happen since like the 60's. And you know how that happened? Because he got one violation for staring down a lines-person (didn't say anything to her but the umpire felt his staring angrily at her was threatening), then the second violation for racket abuse and then the third for yelling at the umpire and cussing up a storm when the tournament director came to intervene in the situation. But sure, only Serena has ever been treated this way in the history of the sport.

And now people are even trying to claim her fine is outrageous and no man would be fined like this. Oh except for the many fines they've given to Fognini, Kyrgios, etc. I know I shouldn't waste my time on idiots who obviously don't watch the sport and know fuck all about it. But I just hate to see very real issues like sexism and misogyny be marginalized by a bunch of idiots jumping on an outraged bandwagon without knowing a thing about what they're talking about.

Edited September 9, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[Bitsy]

I have seen some other pro players tweet that they have never been penalized a game for a coaching violation or for arguing, as if she received an unusually harsh punishment.  That is very misleading to non-tennis or casual tennis viewers.  She was penalized a game because she racked up three violations.  Most players get themselves back on best behavior after two violations in order to avoid that.

[truthaboutluv]

11 minutes ago, Bitsy said:

I have seen some other pro players tweet that they have never been penalized a game for a coaching violation or for arguing, as if she received an unusually harsh punishment.  That is very misleading to non-tennis or casual tennis viewers.  She was penalized a game because she racked up three violations.  Most players get themselves back on best behavior after two violations in order to avoid that.

Exactly

[QueerGirrl]

I like Novak but I’m a DelPo girl.  So go Juan Martin!!!!!

[sacrebleu]

I'm skipping the pre-game because I don't want to hear the relitigation of the women's match.. but go delpo!

[dcalley]

The little boy doing the coin toss and photos was super happy and cute.

[PepSinger]

I’m just going to leave this excellent take here. As a black woman, I thoroughly appreciated this article.

https://www.theroot.com/competition-compassion-and-the-stories-we-dont-hear-ab-1828920404

[ombelico]

I don't think there's any dispute that Serena needs to work on her temper and reactions to adverse situations, and especially needs to learn how to let things go and regain focus. BUT, in this particular situation, I keep coming back to the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of the citation for the coaching violation, which set off the entire chain of events.

It doesn't appear at all that, even if Patrick M was intending to help her and send suggestions with the gesture he made, that it meant anything to Serena, that she received the information, or that she behaved differently as a result of his hand signal. From her vantage point far across the court, and given the fact that he was sitting in the second row and that the gesture he made was rather minor, even when shown in close up on tv, it's plausible that she really did think that it was just a thumbs up. Not to mention that there's serious doubt as to whether she even saw it in the first place. It's not like she looked over to him, he gestured, she nodded, and then obviously moved closer to the net or whatever it was he was suggesting.

Given all of these doubts, and that it was not at all approaching some of the more egregious examples of sideline coaching that are not called out, I think it was ridiculous for Ramos to issue the warning for coaching. Serena overreacted by suggesting that it was an implication that she was cheating, but frankly I agree with her outrage on the call being made in the first place. If he hadn't made that bad call, then even if she had still smashed her racket later (which, to be fair, she does on the regular), she would have gotten the warning that she's used to getting, but would have gotten her frustration out and likely would have calmed down. 

Overall, though, I hope that Osaka absolutely kills it at the Australian Open and wins that one too, just to re-enforce that she was on fire here and deserved the win no matter what. 

[PepSinger]

I just think that Serena’s outburst was about more than what was going on in the moment. I think her outburst was 20 years in the making. When she said, “You owe me an apology!” I felt that. I’m also tired of whenever a black woman stands up for herself, she’s seen as “childish, throwing a tantrum.” There’s just so much history behind all of this, and it’s frustrating that it’s being simplified. 

[truthaboutluv]

I have a sneaking feeling that after losing that 20 minute game and blowing multiple break chances, Del Potro is going to lose this set. Or I'm just being a Debbie Downer. Both entirely possible.

 

Quote

It doesn't appear at all that, even if Patrick M was intending to help her and send suggestions with the gesture he made, that it meant anything to Serena, that she received the information, or that she behaved differently as a result of his hand signal. From her vantage point far across the court, and given the fact that he was sitting in the second row and that the gesture he made was rather minor, even when shown in close up on tv, it's plausible that she really did think that it was just a thumbs up. Not to mention that there's serious doubt as to whether she even saw it in the first place. It's not like she looked over to him, he gestured, she nodded, and then obviously moved closer to the net or whatever it was he was suggesting.

Given all of these doubts, and that it was not at all approaching some of the more egregious examples of sideline coaching that are not called out, I think it was ridiculous for Ramos to issue the warning for coaching. Serena overreacted by suggesting that it was an implication that she was cheating, but frankly I agree with her outrage on the call being made in the first place. If he hadn't made that bad call, then even if she had still smashed her racket later (which, to be fair, she does on the regular), she would have gotten the warning that she's used to getting, but would have gotten her frustration out and likely would have calmed down. 

I feel like all of this moot, because what I always come back to is that the situation had been settled and was over with. When Ramos made the call about the illegal coaching, Serena went up to him, denied it, said her piece and he said okay. Obviously he wasn't going to take the call back and she knew that. She said her piece again during the change over and again, it was settled. 

She brought the issue back up again after she blew her break and was clearly very pissed off about that, hence the racket smash. Which is why, I contend that what Serena was pissed off about is the fact that she was losing. And she channeled that emotion to harping on something that had happened minutes ago in the match. And I'm sorry but for me, that's what made her display ridiculous. Because I felt like she was really losing her shit because she was losing. 
 

Quote

 I’m also tired of whenever a black woman stands up for herself, she’s seen as “childish, throwing a tantrum.” 

Not to speak for anyone else, but for me personally, especially as a black woman, no I don't think anytime a black woman stands up for herself she's being childish and throwing a tantrum. I just think that's what Serena was doing yesterday.

Edited September 9, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[khyber]

2 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

I'm skipping the pre-game because I don't want to hear the relitigation of the women's match.. but go delpo!

I had to fast forward 50 minutes into the program to actually get to the men being talked about.

[Miss Chevious]

There’s a big difference between being being “passionate” and being hot-tempered with sense of entitlement thrown in for good measure.  Yesterday Serena exhibited the latter. And it’s going to cost her $17,000.00 in fines.

Lets hope today’s Men’s Final goes a bit smoother. So far so good.

[PepSinger]

5 minutes ago, Miss Chevious said:

There’s a big difference between being being “passionate” and being hot-tempered with sense of entitlement thrown in for good measure.  Yesterday Serena exhibited the latter. And it’s going to cost her $17,000.00 in fines.

I hope she gives it to them in pennies. And if entitlement = treat me with respect, then I am a very entitled person. Lol

Edited September 9, 2018 by PepSinger

[Miss Chevious]

13 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

I hope she gives it to them in pennies.

For her, $17k is like pennies.

[QueerGirrl]

Intense second set but things aren’t looking good for DelPo.

[ombelico]

40 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I feel like all of this moot, because what I always come back to is that the situation had been settled and was over with. When Ramos made the call about the illegal coaching, Serena went up to him, denied it, said her piece and he said okay. Obviously he wasn't going to take the call back and she knew that. She said her piece again during the change over and again, it was settled. 

But there wouldn't have been anything to "settle" if the bad call hadn't been made in the first place. I agree that Serena's reaction was OTT but Ramos had a major (and IMO, the initial) role in yesterday's mess.

[truthaboutluv]

1 minute ago, ombelico said:

But there wouldn't have been anything to "settle" if the bad call hadn't been made in the first place. I agree that Serena's reaction was OTT but Ramos had a major (and IMO, the initial) role in yesterday's mess.

It wasn't a bad call. Patrick admitted he was illegally coaching. Please note that he didn't say the call was unfair because he wasn't doing it. His argument was that everyone else does it, so I guess that means it should be okay.

[QueerGirrl]

A crying DelPo makes my heart hurt. 

[Darknight]

Congrats to Osaka. She is turning 21 next month too. Her very first slam. 

[TVbitch]

Sad Delpo is like sad Winnie the Pooh. :( 

[Darknight]

Serena is 37 right? Playing against Naomi 20 turning 21. She's getting older and has to realize this

[mojoween]

Personally I don’t think this is a zero sum game.  I feel like Serena was wrong in how she handled it, and Ramos also was displaying the characteristics of sexism with how he handled it.  Both those things can be true.

All of it is unfortunate for Osaka.  I wonder if Serena reached out to her privately away from the cameras.

In other news, oh look, Djokovic won in straight sets.  Yawn.

Edited September 10, 2018 by mojoween

[Conotocarious]

I really don’t like Djokovic. Not sure why but I just don’t.

[truthaboutluv]

6 minutes ago, mojoween said:

In other news, oh look, Djokovic won in straight sets.  Yawn.

lol. I knew Novak would win but I was hoping for a competitive final. However, as soon as Del Potro lost that key game where he would have been up 5-3 and served for the set, I knew this was over. 

I will say this. Whatever your feelings about either of these guys - Federer, Rafa and Djokovic - I don't think it can be overstated how amazing this era of men's tennis is and likely will be for a long time. When you consider how long Laver's record stood and then when Sampras broke it and went on to win 14, so many were sure that would stand for so long. And we now have two guys who've already surpassed it and now Novak has tied it. And I don't think he's done yet. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[TVbitch]

Except for a couple great matches, this Open was quite boring --not many competitive matches and unfortunate drama with the heat and the ladies final. The only matches that really had me glued were Cilic/deMinaur and Nadal/Khachanov. What's coming up next? 

[truthaboutluv]

1 minute ago, TVbitch said:

Cilic/deMinaur and Nadal/Khachanov. What's coming up next? 

I'd say Nadal/Thiem was pretty amazing. But yeah, can't really remember any of the women's matches being too exciting. As for what's next, just the last few Masters Series - Shanghai and Paris and then the year-end championships.

[roseha]

17 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

Except for a couple great matches, this Open was quite boring --not many competitive matches and unfortunate drama with the heat and the ladies final. The only matches that really had me glued were Cilic/deMinaur and Nadal/Khachanov. What's coming up next? 

Davis Cup semis are next week.  With Nadal's unfortunate injury it looks like the French will have a great chance to get to the final.  For those who haven't read about it, the powers that be - I think the majority of international federations and the ITF - have agreed to eliminate the year-long, home and away, best of five classic Davis Cup format next year and reduce it to basically a two week reduced event - practically an exhibition except in name - after the November tour finals.  This was done without consulting the players, and as far as I have heard not a single player was in favor, most reactions ranged from opposed to outright devastated.  The French players in particular are inconsolable and I think they will be hard to beat in this their realistic last chance.

After that there is the "Laver Cup" which is basically an exhibition but a lot of fun as it presents Team Europe vs. Team World.  I am not sure whether ESPN or Tennis Channel shows it but it's worth searching out.

After that, various events, Tour Finals, Davis Cup finals, and Australia in January.

Edited September 10, 2018 by roseha
spelling

[Silver Raven]

James Blake, Andy Roddick, and Billie Jean King have all come out criticizing the judge against Serena, there are probably others, but those are the ones I've seen.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Conotocarious said:

I really don’t like Djokovic. Not sure why but I just don’t.

Can't speak for anyone but for me, it might have something to do with this:

Novak Djokovic Says Some Weird Stuff About Women Tennis Players and Their 'Hormones'

Quote

“It’s knowing what they have to go through with their bodies, and their bodies are much different than men’s bodies. They have to go through a lot of different things that we don’t have to go through. You know, the hormones and different stuff, we don’t need to go into details. Ladies know what I’m talking about,” he said.

 

4 hours ago, PepSinger said:

I’m just going to leave this excellent take here. As a black woman, I thoroughly appreciated this article.

https://www.theroot.com/competition-compassion-and-the-stories-we-dont-hear-ab-1828920404

[ursula]

11 hours ago, AshleyN said:

I do think some of the accusations being thrown at Carlos Ramos are unfair though, since people who follow tennis closely all seem to agree that he's known to be a stickler for the rules

? ? O'RLY? ? ?

 

 

Gee, I wonder if there's some kind of pattern here over which players are allowed to get "passionate" and which are not. ??

Edited September 10, 2018 by ursula

[Bitsy]

42 minutes ago, ursula said:

Gee, I wonder if there's some kind of pattern here over which players are allowed to get "passionate" and which are not. ??

You just linked a bunch of articles that demonstrate that Ramos frequently gives code violations to the male players just as he did to Serena.

Ramos did not decide the penalty for Serena's code violations, all he did was call the violations.  Serena was docked a point and game because of the number of violations she accrued.  The incidents you linked did not result in game penalties because the players (reluctantly) got their tempers under control and behaved themselves instead of racking up additional violations.

In terms of arguing, it's always a judgment call.  Players do not automatically get a code violation just for arguing with the umpire.  Or even yelling. If they did, this wouldn't be an issue.  Based on the articles linked above, Ramos seems to draw the line at being called names (stupid, liar, thief).

[NUguy514]

On 9/9/2018 at 2:33 PM, PepSinger said:

I’m just going to leave this excellent take here. As a black woman, I thoroughly appreciated this article.

https://www.theroot.com/competition-compassion-and-the-stories-we-dont-hear-ab-1828920404

That writer doesn't demonstrate much working knowledge about tennis at all, so, unfortunately, she lost me after the third sentence of her article.

On 9/9/2018 at 10:41 AM, halopub said:

I think you might agree with Slate's piece on this whole mess.

 

This, however, is the best article I've read about this shitshow.  I think Ramos was wrong to assess the coaching penalty because it didn't look to me like there was actual any communication between Mouratoglou and Serena and could thus not technically be coaching as defined by the rulebook.  Mouratoglou can say that he was coaching, but that only is a penalty if Serena received the message, which seemed reallllllly tenuous.  Moreover, he was right that every coach does it – Sascha was doing it last night, Uncle Toni coached Rafa all the fucking time, Zverev's coach, Djokovic's coach, pretty much every woman tennis player's coach, pretty much every man tennis player's coach; to have it so capriciously called with very flimsy evidence to support the call was, in my onion, wrong.

However, Serena, as is often her wont, could not and would not let it go.  I also thought it was a bullshit call; she should've just rolled her eyes and moved on, but she just couldn't.  She obviously deserved the penalty for smashing her racquet; that's inarguable.  She should not have continued to get into it with Ramos during multiple changeovers when she could've just shrugged off the dumb initial penalty.  No, she decided to make a stupid penalty a Huge Fucking Deal, which it really wasn't.  She played her part in this drama and is the furthest thing from blameless in it.

However, Serena was also right that men say a WHOOOOOOOLE lot worse to umpires with no, or extremely few, consequences, and Serena herself has said much worse to umpires (and has been penalized for it, to be fair).  McEnroe's disqualification from the 1990 Australian Open has been brought up here and elsewhere to counter the idea that he got away with so much worse, and I don't buy that.  Yes, he was disqualified once for his bullshit; what about the other 137 million times he was verbally abusive?  He got away with plenty, and that DQ happened when he was no longer a contender for Majors, well after so many of his unpunished offenses had occurred.  I do think women tennis players are held to higher standards than men, and I do think that, subconsciously or otherwise, that played at least a part in Ramos's issuing the third and final penalty for verbal abuse without a soft warning (which he did not need to offer, but, you know, it's the fucking US Open final, so maybe that would've been a wise thing to do).

The worst part in all of this, of course, is that Naomi Osaka did not need Ramos's help to win.  She was kicking Serena's ass, playing some stunning tennis, handling herself beautifully in her first GS final, and more than earning that title.  It just broke my heart that she couldn't enjoy her winning moment and felt so bad that she felt she had to apologize for it.  No, Naomi, you apologize for nothing!  You played incredibly, you deserved that trophy, there will be no asterisk next to this win, and you are the champion.

As for the men's final, blech.

Edited September 11, 2018 by NUguy514

[PepSinger]

1 minute ago, NUguy514 said:

That writer doesn't demonstrate much working knowledge about tennis at all, so, unfortunately, she lost me after the third sentence of her article.

10 hours ago, halopub said:

That's unfortunate because the article is a great read all the way through.

[shok]

3 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

Moreover, he was right that every coach does it – Sascha was doing it last night, Uncle Toni coaches Rafa all the fucking time,

Oh for fuck sake. Uncle Toni has been retired and hasn't coached Rafa for TWO years. I am so sick of Rafa being maligned and his name dragged into this mess. The guy has never broken a racquet in anger and he's received exactly one code violation in his whole career when he yelled 'son of a bitch' in Spanish during a match. Yes he often takes too long to serve but he has received many many many penalties for that, far more than any other player, and he hasn't lost his mind out on the court. So let's just leave him out of this argument, ok?

 

Quote

Zverev's coach, Djokovic's coach, pretty much every woman tennis player's coach, pretty much every man tennis player's coach; to have it so capriciously called with very flimsy evidence to support the call was, in my onion, wrong.

There's a big difference in the reporting of this incident between the American media and the European. Not surprisingly, Serena isn't getting near the sympathy in Europe as she's getting here. They've put together some clips of split screen Moritaglou and Serena at the exact same time and Serena is nodding to the coach and then followed his instructions to move up the court. Plus, I can almost guarantee that Ramos gave Serena a soft warning about getting coaching before he gave her the official warning. That's just what umpires invariably do and the onus is on her if she chose to ignore it.

Quote

I do think women tennis players are held to higher standards than men

Funny how nobody remembers that just last year, Fognini was suspended from the USO and punished harshly for his idiotic rants against the woman umpiring his match. http://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/20546295/fabio-fognini-suspended-us-open-withdrawn-doubles

Quote

As for the men's final, blech.

This I completely agree with!

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by shok
Added link

[ursula]

6 hours ago, Bitsy said:

You just linked a bunch of articles that demonstrate that Ramos frequently gives code violations to the male players just as he did to Serena.

Not for verbal abuse. In all these instances, the verbal abuse comes after the players already got a different type of code violation - and he lets the abuse slide. 

But vulgar curse words are acceptable? Yeah, that's the kind of specifically convenient arbituary lines that people with double standards fall back on.

 

6 hours ago, Bitsy said:

Based on the articles linked above, Ramos seems to draw the line at being called names (stupid, liar, thief).

But vulgar curse words are acceptable? Yeah, that's the kind of specifically convenient arbituary lines that people with double standards fall back on.

[Bitsy]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

9 hours ago, Bitsy said:

You just linked a bunch of articles that demonstrate that Ramos frequently gives code violations to the male players just as he did to Serena.

Not for verbal abuse. In all these instances, the verbal abuse comes after the players already got a different type of code violation - and he lets the abuse slide. 

Simply not true.  Did you read the articles you yourself linked?  Andy Murray received a violation for saying "stupid umpire".  Others did not, but their tirades were also much briefer and less personal.  Serena went after this guy multiple times for an extended period, called him names (liar, thief), attacked his integrity and threatened his career (told him he would never officiate on *her* court ever again).  It was absolutely worthy of a violation.

Arguing with the umpire is not an automatic violation like breaking a racket is and not all arguments are equal.  If Ramos automatically handed out violations every time a player talked back, that would make him a terrible umpire.

For the record, Ramos once gave two code violations in the same match to Nadal for receiving coaching and for taking too long between points.  Nadal wisely decided to save his complaints for the press conference afterwards instead of threatening the umpire on court and getting a third violation.  

Edited September 10, 2018 by Bitsy

[cambridgeguy]

11 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

However, Serena was also right that men say a WHOOOOOOOLE lot worse to umpires with no, or extremely few, consequences, and Serena herself has said much worse to umpires (and has been penalized for it, to be fair).  McEnroe's disqualification from the 1990 Australian Open has been brought up here and elsewhere to counter the idea that he got away with so much worse, and I don't buy that.  Yes, he was disqualified once for his bullshit; what about the other 137 million times he was verbally abusive?  He got away with plenty, and that DQ happened when he was no longer a contender for Majors, well after so many of his unpunished offenses had occurred.  I do think women tennis players are held to higher standards than men, and I do think that, subconsciously or otherwise, that played at least a part in Ramos's issuing the third and final penalty for verbal abuse without a soft warning (which he did not need to offer, but, you know, it's the fucking US Open final, so maybe that would've been a wise thing to do).

McEnroe was frequently a immature crybaby on the court but these days I think the majority of the public views him as a lovable scamp and looks back at his outbursts with a chuckle and bemused head shake.  I do wonder if Serena's outbursts will be viewed in the same light when her career is over.  She's superior to McEnroe as a player and doesn't have nearly the history of outbursts like he did but there's no denying that she has exhibited some less than stellar behavior, especially when she's losing.  Like most great American athletes she generally gets the hero's edit from the media right now but who knows what will happen when she retires.

Edited September 10, 2018 by cambridgeguy