S01.E09: Unto The Breach

[phoenics]

When they were all trying to get the white guy to sign a deal, he said that he was "done sharecropping, paying for your fancy offices and private jets." Andre was the only one who had a reaction - he burst out laughing in the back.

Wow - I don't know how I feel about that, lol.

[phoenics]

I think it's interesting that people hate Anika for drugging Elle but don't care that Cookie had a man killed because she "thought" he was going to kill her.

Probably because the man Cookie thought would kill her had threatened her, and she turned state's evidence on him and he's a notorious murderer. Cookie had good reason to be fearful.

Contrast that with Anika drugging a former addict (not just "drugging Elle") because she was jealous that Cookie managed to make her successful.

No brainer to me. I think it's horrible that Cookie made a mistake - however - the man WAS a murderer. Anika's actions were horrible and at their core were evil. I don't care how desperate you are for a man, drugging a former addict is so far beyond the pale - Anika has evil in her - I get why she's stealing artists - she needs a job, etc.. but drugging a former addict? That SHOULD earn hatred.

Cookie's actions came out of fear for her life - I may think it was a mistake, but I cannot hate her for it.

Anika? Yeah I can hate her for that. Easily.

[SimoneS]

I actually think that Anika's determination to get revenge on Lucious is more than fair and that he more than deserves it. He cheated on her with lots of women and then Cookie shows up. Lucious manipulates her father into signing the forms that he is in good health and has sex with Cookie after promising not to do it again. Hell, Lucious is lucky that Anika did not stick a knife in his treacherous heart. I just worry that Anika has gone from the frying pan into the fire with Beretti. He could turn on her in a second. I hope that she can protect herself.

[phoenics]

Jane The Virgin is a great example of everything you just mentioned.

Perhaps - but it has terrible ratings.

Maybe it would do better on another network.

I think there is something to be said for the creative license to get and keep people's attention and keeping up the breakneck speed is one way to do it. You can go at breakneck speed and still have strong characterization. Empire, imo, has managed to do that. Now, have some elements and plot points been dropped? Yes. Porsha was reverse spying on Anika, but we didn't know that - I actually like the surprise of us not knowing better...

I think that some of this is overly soapy - like Lucious' weird Ridge Forrester back and forth with Brooke - I mean Cookie and Tay - I mean Anika... maybe Danny Strong needs some help on that kind of storytelling...

But the rest? Love.

I sometimes wonder if shows like Scandal which were so fast paced and OMG kinda killed subtlety in the appetite of US audiences... this show is like a sugar high. Sure, maybe it could be more balanced - but right now I'm enjoying the sugar high.

I think this show is far better written than Dallas 2.0 (the that just got canceled on TNT recently). And Dynasty/Dallas of old had a different audience - we live in a different time, where FB and twitter demand fast paced thrill rides. Take Sleepy Hollow for example. Season 1 happened at break neck speed and stuff was crazy and the show was all about twistory, and some folks complained that it didn't make sense, etc.. but the chemistry of the cast worked so well that we just went along anyway. Empire is like that... it's like a friend who convinces you to do something crazy that makes no sense at all and then afterward when you're sitting in the back of a squad car, your friend goes, "Totally worth it, right?!" and you're like "Yep!"

LOL.

[phoenics]

I actually think that Anika's determination to get revenge on Lucious is more than fair and that he more than deserves it. He cheated on her with lots of women and then Cookie shows up. Lucious manipulates her father into signing the forms that he is in good health and has sex with Cookie after promising not to do it again. Hell, Lucious is lucky that Anika did not stick a knife in his treacherous heart. I just worry that Anika has gone from the frying pan into the fire with Beretti. He could turn on her in a second. I hope that she can protect herself.

But I don't really fault Anika for being upset (about Cookie, at least - the rest she was seemingly fine with and never said anything and let Lucious do him) - what bothered me about her whole tirade was when she said that Lucious made her into a treacherous person. Um - nope.

She's treacherous all on her own.

I do wonder what she's going to do now though... how much of a role she'll have going forward.

[TobinAlbers]

 

I do wonder what she's going to do now though... how much of a role she'll have going forward.

Yeah, I was wondering that too. Unless she's pregnant with Lucious' baby or becomes the victim to kick off a murder mystery for S2 or blackmails her way into becoming a majority owner in Empire she could be dropped pretty easily.

[Vixenstud]

The opening scene…classic, Cookie’s stuttering was hysterical!  Poor little Lola, cute as a button and errbody walking around her like she’s a toy on the floor that no one wants to pick up.

 

The first song that Jamal sang had a Prince vibe to it….Mr. Stud would have gotten attacked if I hadn’t been so tired. 

 

As cute as Travie B. was I gave him serious side eye using the word ‘sharecropper’, just as Elle did weeks ago with the ‘CP’ comment.  Zaldamo done told you before Lee Daniels…watch yo mouf!

 

Sigh…with that awful blonde wig, Gabby looked like a burnt stack of hay.  C’mon Wardrobe, she’s an attractive big gal, try clothing her better…and find a better wig!

 

Speaking of hair….I just can’t get into the Derek Luke character, that fuckin’ part on the side of his head is distracting.  Cookie had me howling throwing herself at him though, she’s a sloppy funny drunk.

 

I almost cried at the boys singing Lean On Me in the elevator during Andre’s breakdown.  What I love about the Lyon family is that even though they fight like cats and dogs, at the end of the day they always have each other’s backs.

 

Jamal and Estelle’s duet was beautiful, another teary moment.

 

Is there an Empire soundtrack available?

Edited March 5, 2015 by Vixenstud

[2AT]

Ya know, I'm a jaded jaded viewer, I love me some high class original recipe Upstairs Downstairs, and I, Claudius, and a lot of other deep shows. Now this episode? It made my top five ever - it started running and never stopped and there was more plot than three seasons of Dallas. Damn, that was some brilliant writing and performances.

I can't wait to watch it over again!

Me too CherryMalotte! I am PBS all day and literally have the mug too. This episode was EVERYTHING! They packed so much Pop/Hip Hop culture in, that I need to watch again because I know I missed a bunch. I picked up references to D'Angelo's "How Does It Feel" video, the Jay Z/Solange elevator fight, prison wine and sipping on lean in the studio. There was also Judd Nelson, whose mere presence screams "New Jack City," and for the NYC folks, Creedmoor, which is a notorious psychiatric hospital.

I am going to go fetal when this season ends in 2 weeks??!! Why!!!!!!

Edited March 5, 2015 by 2AT

[phoenics]

Cookie is an ass then, because what any self aware person would realize is that going to prison was on HER (really on Lucious), and has nothing to do with Anika.

True - but Cookie hasn't actually done anything to try to destroy Anika - unlike Anika.

Anika has done all kinds of dirty stuff to try to shove Cookie out - even though there would be no Empire without Cookie's money that she earned by dealing (and that landed her in jail). Anika is just an easy target for Cookie - she should be more angry with Lucious, I agree with that sentiment.

But I see why Cookie doesn't like Anika - Anika steadily puts Cookie down and is derisive to her and acts like she's soooooo much better than Cookie. It's why I was glad to see the show drag her down to the treacherous level she's at now - showing that Anika is just as insecure as Cookie can be - but her methods for retribution are far colder and uglier. Drugging Elle was despicable - and she wasn't in fear of her life like Cookie was.

As far as background goes, I'm much more like Anika (I was also a debutante). But I dislike Anika (I can't even identify with her because her value system is warped). I LOOOOVE Cookie - even though we're nothing alike - except maybe in terms of the heart.

I think this is what I love about Empire. It's taking characters that would be full on stereotypes in the hands of a poor writer, but on this show, they are all layered and interesting. Cookie may seem like a bit of a hoodrat, but her heart is just pure gold. I love her drive and her ambition. I can even forgive her mistakes because I feel like she's coming from the right place.

Anika? I just feel like she's coming from the place of a woman mad that she lost her prize (Lucious). I was screaming at her to interrupt Lucious and Cookie (isn't that what most of us would have done?) - show some real emotion there... instead she tucked it away to try to use it to manipulate Lucious into doing what she wanted. I guess I understand that she knew she'd have more leverage with Lucious without Cookie there - so I guess I can't fault her for that - I guess that was smart of her...

Heh. Maybe Cookie and I have more in common - we both tend to react instantly and we wear our hearts on our sleeves.

I find it hard to get into the cold as ice types like Anika.

I also don't think Cookie's derision of Anika has anything to do with her skin tone - that just allows her to label her. Notice her names for Camilla - it's not about skin tone. Cookie is an equal opportunity shade thrower, lol.

So far my favorite character is Andre.  However I wonder if it will ever come out that he sent those friends of Hakeem's to the studio where Jamal was recording to rough things up.

I don't know - it may never come out. I don't think Anika will ever be brought to task for drugging Elle - I don't think anyone will ever find out.

I both love and hate Andre. It's hard because he's bipolar, but he's also really manipulative and I think he was that way before his symptoms manifested... I find his character really interesting - and I'm really looking forward to seeing this develop. The scenes with J-Hud look really interesting... and the two seem to have some nice chemistry... I kinda don't want to see a triangle with Andre and his wife - I liked how she was so protective of him with his illness and so on point with it. She shouldn't lose him to another woman due to transference...

The first song that Jamal sang had a Prince vibe to it….Mr. Stud would have gotten attacked if I hadn’t been so tired.

Man - that was so Prince I wanted to run out into some Purple Rain.

Sigh…with that awful blonde wig, Gabby looked like a burnt stack of hay.  C’mon Wardrobe, she’s an attractive big gal, try clothing her better…and find a better wig!

Burnt stack of hay. I laughed a good minute after reading that.

Is there an Empire soundtrack available?

Yes - you can preorder it on iTunes. It comes out in full on March 10. They're dropping songs from it here and there - 4 have already downloaded to my iTunes from when I placed my order.

[Vixenstud]

Not familiar with ITunes (don't judge me, dammit!), so will wait until the CD drops.  Is 'Drip-Drop' included, love that track.

[phoenics]

Not familiar with ITunes (don't judge me, dammit!), so will wait until the CD drops.  Is 'Drip-Drop' included, love that track.

LOL - I won't judge!! And yeah - that's included on the album.

[Vixenstud]

Yay, thanks, puddin'!

[Neurochick]

I think this is what I love about Empire. It's taking characters that would be full on stereotypes in the hands of a poor writer, but on this show, they are all layered and interesting. Cookie may seem like a bit of a hoodrat, but her heart is just pure gold. I love her drive and her ambition. I can even forgive her mistakes because I feel like she's coming from the right place.

 

 

That's interesting.  My mom doesn't like Cookie (or Anika for that matter) because to her she is a stereotype, a loud black woman.  But, Cookie is loud and hood because that's where she was raised, she didn't go to college, she went to prison.  What would Cookie be like if she had gone to college?

 

But I see why Cookie doesn't like Anika - Anika steadily puts Cookie down and is derisive to her and acts like she's soooooo much better than Cookie. It's why I was glad to see the show drag her down to the treacherous level she's at now - showing that Anika is just as insecure as Cookie can be - but her methods for retribution are far colder and uglier. Drugging Elle was despicable - and she wasn't in fear of her life like Cookie was.

 

 

I'm not sure if Anika always put Cookie down because Cookie was nasty to her from the start.  I didn't like Anika drugging Elle, but at least she didn't have someone killed like Cookie did.  

[LaJefaza]

I can't with Cookie. I think she is biased. She hated Anika from the day she met her, for no reason.

 

Annika isn't an inherently bad person, but she is very insecure and let that get the best of her. She felt threatened by Cookie and for good reason, but she went about it all wrong. We saw she had the best interest for Lucious and his company, and then reached her tipping point due to Cookie's increased importance as well as him cheating after he proposed and after promising to stop messing around with her. Not to mention, the other women he cheated with as well.

 

 

As much as I enjoy Cookie (I ADORE Taraji), I agree with you both, and I have serious beef with Empire's writers.

 

I never felt much of anything for Anika, but I did feel badly for her in the beginning. She was minding her own business, working hell hard for a company she was helping grow, was part of a family she thought respected her, and was in a relationship with the man she loved. At that point, she had done nothing wrong (why she stayed with Lucious' trifling, cheating ass is another story).

 

Now all of a sudden Cookie gets out of jail and IMMEDIATELY steps into Anika's face and on her toes, insulting, intimidating and disrespecting her at every turn. Anika hadn't done a thing to that woman. Cookie acted as if Anika had personally got her sent to jail and stole her man, when it was Lucious who was the engineer behind all of that. Strangely, Cookie is just FINE with Lucious. She's willing to sex him all up and down the corridors of Empire. Lucious, the person who actually hurt her? They're COOL. But Anika? SHE felt the brunt of her wrath. Every week we were meant to laugh at Boo Boo Kitty. Now, since Cookie is meant to be the hero of this piece, the writers decide that their best option is to demonize her opponent. Stack the deck against Anika in order to bolster Cookie. So they turn Anika into a traitor who drugs an addict out of petty jealousy and spite. Now this is where my beef with the writers began.

 

Shows love to do this. In order for the heroes to find 'true love', they usually end up cheating, and someone has to fall by the wayside. And of course, the easiest thing to do, to justify the pain they've caused, is to turn the innocent person into the bad guy. It's annoying because real life isn't always like this. In real life very often the wronged party IS completely innocent and has every right to feel hurt and devastated. Sometimes, the cheaters ARE the jerks who have done something awful. But writers like to skip over such annoying details. It's too messy to admit the star of the show may actually be a selfish asshole. So lets go ahead and make the scorned lover a killer, a psycho, a thief, a sociopath or just a plain old jerk. I have seen this lazy writing too many times.

 

I'm disappointed that Empire took the easy route. Because if they had left the character of Anika as she was, a hard working woman who was just trying to do right by the family and the company, they would have had to admit that what Cookie was doing to her was horrible, and they would have had some WRITING to do. But no. Instead, Anika drugs a recovering addict and betrays the company with its biggest rival. Anything to justify the fact that Cookie was shitting on that girl from day one.

 

Now mind you, I still love Cookie, but I'm not going to pretend she was the saint in all of this. And I'm not going to pretend that she didn't have a large, large part to play in the what led to the events of this episode. Of COURSE Anika was 1000% wrong, and there is no justification in the world for drugging a recovering addict. NONE. I don't feel sorry for Anika. But COOKIE started this war a LONG time ago.

 

This is the first episode I've felt for Andre. Trai and Jussie almost had me in tears in that elevator scene. And that NEVER happens to me. I NEVER get weepy at TV shows (my cold, black heart doesn't allow it). So for those guys to do that, and to get me to admit it....man...these guys are SUPERSTARS.

Edited March 5, 2015 by LaJefaza

[aprilbabe]

Random things I noticed.

When Lucious is talking to Delphine, her manager says that A&R girl turned her down six years ago. So thats at least how long Anika has been a part of Empire, and probably how long Anika and Lucious were in a relationship.

 

In the elevator Jamal talks about crazy Aunt Carol, being strung out (not sure the exact words) So Cookie's sister was addicted to drugs?

[Jazzy24]

I love Cookie and Porsha just busting up on Lucious and Anika. Cookie stuttering and saying "Excuse Me" "oh now you can't speak English" "bye Felicia" ""let's go grab this hoes clothes" and her screaming "Porsha phone check!!" And Porsha grabbing the phone out Anika's hands while throwing her clothes out the house was hilarious.

Lucious should go to hell.

Andre just broke my heart and I loved all the brothers together in the elevator.

[EyesGlazed]

I'll pick one nit with this episode:  I hated the street confrontation between Luscious and Beretti and their gangs, with all these douchebags pulling out their penis substitute guns.  How, um, American TV.  (By the way, how do other countries even do TV shows without everybody having a gun like it is here?  I can't even imagine.)  I'm so over seeing a bunch of guys pointing guns at each other and then, dum dum DUM, cocking the hammer when they're reeeellly mad.  

 

OTOH, I just read an interview with record executives about Empire and one of them said the street element is real in the music business.  So maybe the scene was somewhat accurate, except for it taking place on a main street in broad daylight.  Still don't like it though.

 

I love Ghetto Ass Studios.  They still have bullet holes in the door glass.

Ha ha, gotta admit that was funny.

[Demig]

I just realize what I love about this show.

 

It is totally and unapologetic about everything. It's soapiness, it's ultra-fast unrealistic pace, it's portrayal of everything good and bad. And it's freakin' amazing actors! They put the cap/cherry on this whole beautiful mess!
 

Edited March 5, 2015 by Demig

[Neurochick]

I never felt much of anything for Anika, but I did feel badly for her in the beginning. She was minding her own business, working hell hard for a company she was helping grow, was part of a family she thought respected her, and was in a relationship with the man she loved. At that point, she had done nothing wrong (why she stayed with Lucious' trifling, cheating ass is another story).

 

 

That's very true.  Anika was minding her own business when Cookie appears and screams, "I want what's mine!"  

 

I also didn't like Cookie throwing Anika's clothes away, I guess because neither she, Cookie nor Porsha could fit into them huh?  That's nasty?  So is throwing someone's property away.

 

I know Cookie is supposed to be the "hero" in this story, but I'm sorry,  I can't with her, she's common and nasty. I've known people like Cookie, the key word is "known" meaning I had to say "bye Felecia" to them; Cookie and Porsha can both go take a seat.

 

One thing I adore about the show is the pace.  One thing I hate is dragging something out over multiple episodes.  If Lucious hadn't told his family that he has ALS, I might have stopped watching.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Neurochick

[CaughtOnTape]

I finally figured out why it is I am so enamored with Jussie Smollett.  When he sings, he looks like he's full of joy.  That Conqueror song, you couldn't wipe the smile off of his face.  You can tell he loves to sing....anything....anywhere.  Which is why he's considered the talented and musical one.  For Hakeem music is what he did because it got him girls and made him tough.  For Jamal, music is what he is, it's in his blood, it flows through him in everything he does.  It's very compelling to watch him approach a situation because you know it's gonna become a great song eventually.

 

The brothers in the elevator was heart breaking.  Jamal crying and trying like hell to reach his brother the only way he knew how.  

 

Cookie will never not be funny.  Everything she does is over the top and I love it.

[missyb]

New comer to Empire. Loved it . Amazing casting and acting. The bottom of this link is a clip by "porsha" with a recap of the episode. Gold.

 

http://tvline.com/2015/03/04/empire-trai-byers-andre-bipolar-breakdown-elevator-interview/

[scruffy73]

I was completely blown away by "Andre" tonight.  Trai was amazing in all his scenes.

 

Was his portrayal realistic?  In my experience yes.  I have bipolar disorder too.  I was diagnosed at 22, which is about the "normal" age for such a diagnosis.  I was in college, away from home, so none of my family was there to experience the breakdown with me. I suspect this is the background for Andre as well.  Because we have mental illness on my mother's side of the family, she was not surprised and was supportive.  My father's side of the family went the "there's nothing wrong with you" route.  20 years later, most everyone understands or accepts...or just doesn't talk about it.  Mostly the latter.  It gets quiet when I pull out all my medication.

 

Unlike Andre I'm completely compliant...however, as I get older, I am much more affected by missed medication.  I won't get as bad as Andre after two days without medication but I will definitely know the difference.  It has been shown that he had been on and off his medication prior to flushing them so he was on his way to full-out "crazy" and we were seated front row at the breakdown.  Obviously his "crazy" is manic; mine is mostly depressive.  Don't know which one is worse.  The buying of the car is realistic.  I've done some stupid stuff with money when I was not stable; my aunt "lost" $30K of her money when she was manic.  No idea of what she spent it on.  The stress of the IPO and the rejection from his father didn't help his situation.  Stress can be a major trigger, especially when not compliant with medication.  Honestly, this whole thing made me want to cry.  The elevator scene did bring me to tears.

 

I didn't think of Lucious giving Rhonda the paperwork as him passing the buck but as acknowledging that she was the next of kin.  Maybe I'm naïve but I don't think he could put all that together in the moment.  But he is an ass so maybe he is trying to play Rhonda and Andre...or put Andre against Rhonda.

[Badsamaritan]

Upon my third watch (don't judge me!), I finally caught Porsha in the background of the boardroom after she & Cookie walked in, fixing her face! She had her mirror out and erthing lol!

[Demig]

I think it's interesting that people hate Anika for drugging Elle but don't care that Cookie had a man killed because she "thought" he was going to kill her.

Kill or be Killed? Elle's alive and kicking.

I sure do hate Lucious for Killing Bunky.

[HunterHunted]

I think it's interesting that people hate Anika for drugging Elle but don't care that Cookie had a man killed because she "thought" he was going to kill her.

  

I don't hate Cookie for having a man killed because I still feel like that storyline is going to be revisited and she's going to get hers

I was completely blown away by "Andre" tonight.  Trai was amazing in all his scenes.

 

Was his portrayal realistic?  In my experience yes.  I have bipolar disorder too.  I was diagnosed at 22, which is about the "normal" age for such a diagnosis.  I was in college, away from home, so none of my family was there to experience the breakdown with me. I suspect this is the background for Andre as well.  Because we have mental illness on my mother's side of the family, she was not surprised and was supportive.  My father's side of the family went the "there's nothing wrong with you" route.  20 years later, most everyone understands or accepts...or just doesn't talk about it.  Mostly the latter.  It gets quiet when I pull out all my medication.

 

Unlike Andre I'm completely compliant...however, as I get older, I am much more affected by missed medication.  I won't get as bad as Andre after two days without medication but I will definitely know the difference.  It has been shown that he had been on and off his medication prior to flushing them so he was on his way to full-out "crazy" and we were seated front row at the breakdown.  Obviously his "crazy" is manic; mine is mostly depressive.  Don't know which one is worse.  The buying of the car is realistic.  I've done some stupid stuff with money when I was not stable; my aunt "lost" $30K of her money when she was manic.  No idea of what she spent it on.  The stress of the IPO and the rejection from his father didn't help his situation.  Stress can be a major trigger, especially when not compliant with medication.  Honestly, this whole thing made me want to cry.  The elevator scene did bring me to tears.

 

I didn't think of Lucious giving Rhonda the paperwork as him passing the buck but as acknowledging that she was the next of kin.  Maybe I'm naïve but I don't think he could put all that together in the moment.  But he is an ass so maybe he is trying to play Rhonda and Andre...or put Andre against Rhonda.

I thought this was great portrayal. One of my classmates had a massive manic episode while we were in med school. We were heading into finals and he broke. He decided he had a great idea for an internet business. It was during the dotcom boom and he managed to convince quite a few people to invest in his idea. He got $300,000 in investments and blew it in a week. It wasn't until he stopped making less and less sense that someone got him hospitalized.

[Neurochick]

I didn't think of Lucious giving Rhonda the paperwork as him passing the buck but as acknowledging that she was the next of kin.  Maybe I'm naïve but I don't think he could put all that together in the moment.  But he is an ass so maybe he is trying to play Rhonda and Andre...or put Andre against Rhonda.

 

 

It was an interesting move, considering what Lucious said to Andre, about him married to a white woman.  Maybe Lucious was right about that, but in that moment, I think he realized that even though he might not agree with the marriage, Rhonda is Andre's wife and therefore next of kin.

[sadie]

The manic breakdown scene was so so spot on. From the rage, to the paranoia, to the sheer frustration you could feel from him. I have a bipolar in my family and this rang completely on point. I just love how this show takes me from a laugh to a tear in such a short time. All the actors are brilliant ( and I normally loathe Terrance Howard). Next Wednesday can't come quick enough.

[Jade Foxx]

 

I was completely blown away by "Andre" tonight.

 

That was some Denzel Washington level acting going down last night. During the boardroom breakdown, I got shades of Alonzo in "Training Day."

 

Thank you for sharing, scruffy73. I appreciate this show is addressing mental illness within the black community. Great stuff.

 

On another note, Lew's ALS symptoms seemed to have cleared up quite nicely...

[ThomasAAnderson]

 

Why isn't this show allowed to be criticized at all?

You're welcome to criticize but I don't think the complaints about the pacing are justified. As someone stated upthread, growing from 11 to 23 episodes weighs a show down with boring filler episodes and I don't have the patience for a whole episode of Jamal playing with his daughter. I don't need to see the food cooked in order to enjoy watching the characters have breakfast. I don't even understand people that not only want to see the sausage made but want to know which farm in what part of the state the pig came from. See Nashville for a music show that's lost it way in a maze of filler eps.

 

I will be telling my nephews to "Get their chest up" (whatever that means) every time I see them. It sounds hard, I like it. 

 

Anyone complaining about the gun play must not have lived through the Puffy's era of hip hop in NYC. There were beatdowns and shoot outs at the Hit Factory and Hot97 from the mid-90s to the early 00s.

 

I think everyone except Cookie is well aware of Andre's illness. However I think they all assumed he was taking care of himself so it didn't need to be part of the conversation every time they interacted with him--this, to me, is true to our culture. 

 

I like Jussy's singing but ONLY D'angelo can pull off that How Does it Feel  video. Estelle's acting was horrible; not every singer can make the transition so let's not require artists to go beyond their abilities in future.

 

I love how this show continues to demonstrate that the "hardest" person in any room is Cookie. It's easy to dismiss her as just an "angry black woman" stereotype but you can see there's so much more if you'd only look. She's still the vulnerable woman who has only slept with Luscious. She is the mama grizzly (haha had to go there) who protects her sons from cougars. She's got brains; knows how to talk to people, how to make good music and most importantly knows how to read people. In my experience women like Cookie are hiding years of hurt and betrayal in their loud/aggressive demeanor which is why I forgive and love my sisters. The dynamic between Cookie and Anika is what it is because Anika reaped the benefits of Cookie's sacrifice and for that Cookie hates her.

 

Nobody caught Hakeem singing in the You're So Beautiful sing along? I love the character development there. 

 

 

[Jade Foxx]

 

I love how this show continues to demonstrate that the "hardest" person in any room is Cookie. It's easy to dismiss her as just an "angry black woman" stereotype but you can see there's so much more if you'd only look. She's still the vulnerable woman who has only slept with Luscious. She is the mama grizzly (haha had to go there) who protects her sons from cougars. She's got brains; knows how to talk to people, how to make good music and most importantly knows how to read people. In my experience women like Cookie are hiding years of hurt and betrayal in their loud/aggressive demeanor which is why I forgive and love my sisters. The dynamic between Cookie and Anika is what it is because Anika reaped the benefits of Cookie's sacrifice and for that Cookie hates her.

 

^^^^^^ ALL OF THIS.

[Jazzy24]

I love the song along that the cast did to "You're so Beautiful" but again I felt Andre's lack of presence really glaring.

[Eolivet]

Great episode -- exciting from start to finish! I appreciate that Empire fulfilled my desire for a scene with Andre and his brothers. Well-played, show...on a number of levels. It makes their relationship a lot more real, and makes me feel like Andre doesn't just see his brothers as pawns. It's interesting he had to be off his meds for that to happen -- I guess it was a defense mechanism? But I enjoyed it all the same.

 

One thing I found interesting was they flashed back to the scene where Lucious told Andre that he could never run the company since he married a white woman, and then showed a "previously" where Rhonda said if he went off his meds, she'd leave him (I think). I was wondering if we were supposed to infer he was trying to get his wife to leave him (like his father wanted) by going off his meds, or if that was just coincidence. It was an interesting one, given the previews for next week.

 

Another thing I love is when the Lyons (mainly Lucious) call the company "the Empire," instead of just "Empire." It makes it sound a lot grander and...life and death-like. Wars are fought over the Empire. It's just interesting phrasing -- hoping that's deliberate, because that's the image it evokes.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Eolivet

[Vixenstud]

 

That was some Denzel Washington level acting going down last night. During the boardroom breakdown, I got shades of Alonzo in "Training Day."

 

"Why you disloyal bitch-ass n*****!  King Kong ain't got SHIT on me!"- Training Day

 

Um, sorry....love this movie, the only time I ever found Denzel to be sexy as hell.

Edited March 7, 2015 by aethera

[ridethemaverick]

You're welcome to criticize but I don't think the complaints about the pacing are justified. As someone stated upthread, growing from 11 to 23 episodes weighs a show down with boring filler episodes and I don't have the patience for a whole episode of Jamal playing with his daughter. I don't need to see the food cooked in order to enjoy watching the characters have breakfast. I don't even understand people that not only want to see the sausage made but want to know which farm in what part of the state the pig came from. See Nashville for a music show that's lost it way in a maze of filler eps.

I will be telling my nephews to "Get their chest up" (whatever that means) every time I see them. It sounds hard, I like it.

Anyone complaining about the gun play must not have lived through the Puffy's era of hip hop in NYC. There were beatdowns and shoot outs at the Hit Factory and Hot97 from the mid-90s to the early 00s.

I think everyone except Cookie is well aware of Andre's illness. However I think they all assumed he was taking care of himself so it didn't need to be part of the conversation every time they interacted with him--this, to me, is true to our culture.

I like Jussy's singing but ONLY D'angelo can pull off that How Does it Feel video. Estelle's acting was horrible; not every singer can make the transition so let's not require artists to go beyond their abilities in future.

I love how this show continues to demonstrate that the "hardest" person in any room is Cookie. It's easy to dismiss her as just an "angry black woman" stereotype but you can see there's so much more if you'd only look. She's still the vulnerable woman who has only slept with Luscious. She is the mama grizzly (haha had to go there) who protects her sons from cougars. She's got brains; knows how to talk to people, how to make good music and most importantly knows how to read people. In my experience women like Cookie are hiding years of hurt and betrayal in their loud/aggressive demeanor which is why I forgive and love my sisters. The dynamic between Cookie and Anika is what it is because Anika reaped the benefits of Cookie's sacrifice and for that Cookie hates her.

Nobody caught Hakeem singing in the You're So Beautiful sing along? I love the character development there.

Yes to it all. Painting Cookie as the hood, angry black woman is reductive and predictable but there are so many more layers to her. Anika too, for that matter. It would be just as easy to dismiss her as a bougie snob but she has layers as well. That's what makes this show so good, IMO.

To add, if men can get angry and loud, why can't women? People are who they are and they are allowed to express emotion. We can certainly argue that Cookie would be exhausting to be around if she was always on 10 (anyone would), but I don't buy into the angry black woman bullshit. It's tired.

[scarletregina]

I actually think that Anika's determination to get revenge on Lucious is more than fair and that he more than deserves it. He cheated on her with lots of women and then Cookie shows up. Lucious manipulates her father into signing the forms that he is in good health and has sex with Cookie after promising not to do it again. Hell, Lucious is lucky that Anika did not stick a knife in his treacherous heart. I just worry that Anika has gone from the frying pan into the fire with Beretti. He could turn on her in a second. I hope that she can protect herself.

 

Lucious has treated Anika horribly, but that doesn't excuse her behavior at all. It wasn't as if he only slept with one woman, he slept with who knows how many and Anika was aware of it. It was her choice to stay with him through all of his infidelity. 

 

What this episode showed me was that Anika and Lucious belong together. They both only care about money and power.

[wanderingstar]

I forgot to say how much I loved seeing the cereal-loving owner of Ghetto Ass Studio. I love that guy!

Edited March 5, 2015 by Gillian Rosh

[riverheightsnancy]

The most I know about psychology is I minored in it so I'm really curious to know.  If someone stop taking their medication for two days they can go into a full manic episode in that time period?  I know that the brain is a tricky organ but I guess I figured it would take longer for the medication to work its way out of their systems.

 

Generally speaking that is most likely true, however, in "Empire" time, things happen really quick! My perception is that Andre may have been playing with his meds and not taking them consistently, so that can add to quicker decompensation. In addition, if the meds were not working (for whatever reason) THAT could have been the antecedent factor which actually caused him to dump them anyway.  One of the major things we would see with depression/bipolar patients was when they started feeling better and more "normal" (whatever that is for that person), a decent percentage would stop their meds because they don't think they need them anymore. It is very common for people not to want to be chained to having to take a med forever, and thinking that they don't "need" them anymore because they feel better. Personally, I thought it was really brave of the show to let the actor playing Andre really show the angst that a person with bipolar can go through. One caveat, not all people who go through mania get violent or angry though. I had a patient who started to believe that she could "fly" and that death was an illusion. So we had to watch her very, very closely, because she might try to jump through a window (because she said it) and really hurt herself thinking that she could jump through a window and fly and then not die if she got hurt.  

[Neurochick]

I like Jussy's singing but ONLY D'angelo can pull off that How Does it Feel  video. 

 

 

I was wondering if anybody else thought that.

 

I love how this show continues to demonstrate that the "hardest" person in any room is Cookie. It's easy to dismiss her as just an "angry black woman" stereotype but you can see there's so much more if you'd only look. She's still the vulnerable woman who has only slept with Luscious. She is the mama grizzly (haha had to go there) who protects her sons from cougars. She's got brains; knows how to talk to people, how to make good music and most importantly knows how to read people. In my experience women like Cookie are hiding years of hurt and betrayal in their loud/aggressive demeanor which is why I forgive and love my sisters. The dynamic between Cookie and Anika is what it is because Anika reaped the benefits of Cookie's sacrifice and for that Cookie hates her.

 

 

I have to disagree because for me Cookie does act like a stereotypical angry black woman.  Protect her sons from the cougars?  Really?  Like an older woman is going to eat them alive?  I don't think so.  

 

Why is it okay for Cookie to hate Anika because Anika reaped the benefits?  That's not Anika's fault and if Cookie isn't self aware enough to see that, oh well.

[mtlchick]

 

I will be telling my nephews to "Get their chest up" (whatever that means)

I'm taking it to mean to have confidence.  "Don't slouch, shoulders back, lift up your chest, etc."

[CherryMalotte]

I forgot to say how much I loved seeing the cereal-loving owner of Ghetto Ass Studio. I love that guy!

 

He was cracking me up having his cereal. And now I'm going to get my bowl of fruit loops on.

[Jade Foxx]

 

Quote

    

    I will be telling my nephews to "Get their chest up" (whatever that means)

I'm taking it to mean to have confidence.  "Don't slouch, shoulders back, lift up your chest, etc."

 

SAY IT WITH YOUR CHEST! - Kevin Hart's Uncle Richie Jr.

[ridethemaverick]

Porsha told Jamal to put his chest up, like put it away and come on.

[Neurochick]

I have thought more about how Lucious allowed Rhonda to sign Andre into the hospital.  Maybe Lucious had her sign the papers so in the future HE will tell Andre, "I didn't want them to take you Andre, but that white woman did, she wanted you put away."  I wouldn't put anything past Lucious.

[ridethemaverick]

I was wondering if anybody else thought that.

I have to disagree because for me Cookie does act like a stereotypical angry black woman. Protect her sons from the cougars? Really? Like an older woman is going to eat them alive? I don't think so.

Why is it okay for Cookie to hate Anika because Anika reaped the benefits? That's not Anika's fault and if Cookie isn't self aware enough to see that, oh well.

Is Rhonda acting like a stereotypical white woman? Is Baretti acting like a stereotypical white man? Old boy with the sharecropping comment, was he stereotypical?

Beyond that, why does it matter if Cookie happens to fit a stereotype? Is she obligated to behave (be written) in a way that pleases racists and idiots? We could probably point out stereotypical behavior for everyone on this show (and on TV in general) but for some reason, I only ever see this when it comes to black folks and black women, especially.

[Trixie Belden]

Andre has been playing around with his meds for several episodes now, so he likely doesn't have a steady therapeutic dose by this point. Add in the tiniest bit of stress and it leads to a full blown spinout like last night. I'm not entirely sure his family knows he's been diagnosed with bipolar, but they do know something about how he is in general, so they just have worked out ways to work with him and his moods (like Jamal starting him remembering and singing in the elevator).

[Neurochick]

Beyond that, why does it matter if Cookie happens to fit a stereotype? Is she obligated to behave (be written) in a way that pleases racists and idiots? We could probably point out stereotypical behavior for everyone on this show (and on TV in general) but for some reason, I only ever see this when it comes to black folks and black women, especially.

 

 

I would think that if someone acts like a stereotype, they would please racists and idiots.  

 

And nothing wrong with having an opinion, just because I don't worship at the altar of Cookie.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Neurochick

[SnarkKitty]

The pacing is breakneck, which I like because it moves quickly, but at time annoys because things get dropped and there is no sense of how much time passes between episodes. With the success they're having, it will probably be corrected next season. I know it's not bothering me THAT much, because I'm all "just two episodes left!" verklempt like everyone else.

 

 

Only two episodes left of season one, but I've got some hot actor/character additions for season two.  I said several pages back that a rival family should be given a shot with the Lyon family.  In addition to Lucious, Anika, Vernon, Rhonda, Andre, Hakeem, Jamal, and Cookie all returning, let's introduce:

 

1.)  Wesley Snipes as "Tyrone McMillan."  Lucious' not nearly as wealthy record label rival.

 

2.)  Vivica A Fox as "Tara Davis-McMillan."  Tyrone's semi-classy wife.

 

3.)  Tanisha Lynn as "Stylish Davis."  Tara's spunky and stylish daughter from a previous relationship.

 

4.)  Gabrielle Union as "Sheila McMillan."  Tyrone's headstrong daughter from a previous relationship.

 

5.)  Lance Gross as "Houston McMillan."  Tyrone's bisexual hot-headed nephew who takes an interest in Jamal much to his uncle's chagrin.

 

Recurring characters:

1.)  Idris Elba as "Jovan Britton."  Sheila's dashing on again/off again devious bad boy with an accent and with somewhat of a heart of gold.

2.)  Michael Muhney as Eliot "Eli" Wentworth.  Rhonda's Ivy League college ex.  He's slick and smarmy but has Rhonda's back.

3.)  Veronica Redd as "Veronica Lyon."  Lucious' part glamorous, part bad mamma jamma mama.

 

I hope they don't; no offense to your ideas but this sounds too Have and Have Not to me. Please don't Perry-ize Empire!
 

I love that they are finding really nondescript places to film the exteriors (Marina Towers aerial shot non-withstanding) so it looks like it takes place in NYC and the environs and not Chicago. Rock on location scouts...you're doing a superior job unlike the production team behind The Good Wife (that get's Chicago so damn wrong all the time).

I have to disagree. Maybe it's precisely because they're finding non-descript places that it doesn't look or feel a thing like NYC. Not the buildings, not the streets. For sure not the fashions Hakeem wears (unless it's NYC in the 90's.) There is literally not a single scene where I feel like this is taking place in NYC. They should have at least thrown in a few b-roll shots, done some on locations that they could mix in. Hopefully that will be corrected next season also. Because for me, Empire is happening in a vacuum somewhere, but it ain't happening HERE.

[2AT]

That's interesting.  My mom doesn't like Cookie (or Anika for that matter) because to her she is a stereotype, a loud black woman.  But, Cookie is loud and hood because that's where she was raised, she didn't go to college, she went to prison.  What would Cookie be like if she had gone to college?

 

 

I'm not sure if Anika always put Cookie down because Cookie was nasty to her from the start.  I didn't like Anika drugging Elle, but at least she didn't have someone killed like Cookie did.

From what I gathered from "game recognizes game" scene during the family dinner/get together earlier in the season, I don't think that Cookie and Anika really hate each other. Cookie talks sideways to everybody, even people that she loves. In regards to Anika, Cookie wanted her man back and Anika was in the way. In turn, Anika saw the undeniable chemistry between Cookie and Lucious and lashed out in fear.

[Trixie Belden]

I forgot to say how much I loved seeing the cereal-loving owner of Ghetto Ass Studio. I love that guy!

 

I cracked up when all the guys were passed out on the floor, Cookie and the other guy are still going and ol boy is watching it all go down while he eats Froot Loops out of a big tupperware bowl.

[CaughtOnTape]

I have thought more about how Lucious allowed Rhonda to sign Andre into the hospital.  Maybe Lucious had her sign the papers so in the future HE will tell Andre, "I didn't want them to take you Andre, but that white woman did, she wanted you put away."  I wouldn't put anything past Lucious.

 

This is exactly what went through my head when this scene went down.  And I think Rhonda knew that was eventually going to happen, hence her reluctance to sign it.  But she was screwed, she had to.