S05.E09: A Moorland Holiday (Christmas Special)

[photo fox]

From ITV's website...

The drama will pick up in autumn 1924. It's grouse shooting season and Rose’s father-in-law, Lord Sinderby, has rented out Brancaster Castle in Northumberland and invited the Crawley family to a shooting party. While good sport is enjoyed, Stowell has an axe to grind and a scandalous secret threatens to undermine the holiday. Surprises are in store as the families become better acquainted with each other and some new faces arrive on the scene.

[chocolatine]

I thought it was mostly a good CS, and I'm glad nobody was killed off. The scenes between Violet and Isobel were - as always - my favorite part, especially when Violet explained why she helped reunite the Kuragins. 

 

I'm glad Rose and Atticus will be going to New York before Hitler gets serious traction in Europe. I also hope it means we'll see much less of the tedious Sinderbys next season. I will really miss Tom though; is Allen Leech leaving the show completely, or can we hope for some scenes set in Boston and/or a visit to Downton next season?

 

The Bates storyline that won't die - I wonder if there's a "emperor's new clothes" dynamic going on in the writers' room where nobody dares tell Julian Fellowes how lame and played out that storyline is.

 

Is Matthew Goode coming back next season? While I'm not jazzed about another "Mary makes a man fall madly in love with her by being a cold bitch" storyline, Matthew Goode is great eye candy and I wouldn't mind seeing more of him.

 

Carson's proposal to Mrs Hughes was so sweet! Fellowes had better not mess them up next season.

[Daisy]

I am not a crier of television shows. at all. but I can't tell a lie. Carson's proposal made me so leaky. That was so incredibly sweet, and I am so happy they are going to be running a house together. And though I love yous weren't exchanged, just Mrs Hughes "I thought you'd never ask!" was more sweet and romantic than any gushy I love you.  

 

So. why can't Marigold call Edith Mummy? I mean she's raising her as her ward, at a young age, can't they just fib it? Or she can 'legally adopt her'? Like this "oh my god, everyone knows!!" storyline is dumb, but they made Edith, 1: not sad, 2: poor and pathetic, 3: not ugly, so I can't complain too much. 

Remember when Anna was awesome? I'm so tired of her and Mr Moppy Martyr. like. just, shut up and go away. I was more surprised no one said "Hey Anna, run away to Ireland or America with Tom!"

(I was very scared that Robert was going to die. I would miss Donk). 

[Kostgard]

Dammit, Moseley! Why did you have to go and ruin a good thing? We were finally rid of him!

 

Oy. I do remember when Anna was awesome. The Bateses are such a drag now. I wonder who they will be accused of murdering next season (you know it will happen - Fellowes has approximately three ideas in his arsenal, so it WILL come around again).

 

I will miss Tom greatly. I like him a lot and the little actress who plays Sybbie is adorable. I wouldn't mind if they contrived some reason for him to come back. 

 

Thomas Barrow, Bitch for Hire. Seriously - he should rent out his services. It will at least give him something to do. I still hang onto the faint hope that Fellowes will let him have a love life one day - just not with the new footman. He looks like he's about 12. And freakin' Daisy seems to be smitten with him. Again, because Fellowes has about three ideas, so we're seeing the same damn thing again.

 

I couldn't give less of a crap about broth-gate or Violet's bitchy butler. On the other hand, Violet and Isobel are awesome and while I think Dickie was sweet, I'm glad Isobel isn't marrying him and moving away from her true love Violet. She's still got Dr. Clarkson if she wants to marry. And I hope another dashing older gentleman comes to town and gives Violet one more indecent proposal before she departs this earth. I love that she was flattered by that and I'd love it if she got herself a boyfriend. Robert would die. 

 

I too thought Robert had gas when he was describing his symptoms. I was hoping it would all end in a giant fart in the middle of dinner that would break the tension from the butthole butler snubbing Tom, but no such luck. At least drunk Robert is kinda fun.

 

Yay for Carson finally pulling the trigger! I was wondering how long he'd keep up with the silly "We'll retire and be business partners together!" stuff with Mrs. Hughes when he so obviously wanted to be a different kind of partner. I'm so glad be proposed and I'm so glad she accepted instead of dragging her decision out. I've been 'shipping Carson/Hughes for a long time. Don't mess this up, Fellowes!

Edited December 26, 2014 by Kostgard

[Tetraneutron]

 

Remember when Anna was awesome? I'm so tired of her and Mr Moppy Martyr. like. just, shut up and go away. I was more surprised no one said "Hey Anna, run away to Ireland or America with Tom!"

I know, right? I miss the Anna that helped Bates get back at Thomas and O'Brien, and helped Mary move a dead body, and got her husband out of jail. Can't she at least be fighting for her freedom, instead of being sad and defeated? Also, does anyone think the audience will ever find out who did kill Green?

 

The remaining plots from worst to first:

 

Denker, Spratt, and the stupid soup no one cares about. Why any of it? Why all this focus on a character no one knows? Why would Denker be clever and conniving the previous episode and a total idiot now? Why would the proper Dowager Countess even care if her lady's maid could cook? I can't believe that Maggie Smith didn't storm into the writers' room to say to Julian Fellowes, "I have an Oscar, I'm not saying this shit." 

 

Isobel and Lord Merton: I don't get it. I mean, I get the show wants to keep the two grand Dames being all snarky together, but can't they just change the sets and have them gossip somewhere else? It would provide a badly needed change in dynamics for the proudly middle-class Isobel to be a Lady and could invigorate a show which sorely needs it. Change how she's treated by Violet and Robert, and how she sees herself.

 

Mary and Finn or whatever his name on this show is. Yawn. I was more interested in Edith and the sad-sack estate agent (and OF COURSE that's the kind of guy Edith ends up with). Also, what happened to her magazine job? When does she have time to do it?

 

Thomas and the asshole butler: Thomas remains my favorite character. It's all rather pointless to make a villain we know nothing about and will never see again (and can somone explain to me why none of the Aldridges pulled him aside and told him to stop being a little shit and to do his job?) But I do like scheming dirty Thomas much better than sad PSA about gay people Thomas. And I guess this is what Thomas does now: scheme on behalf of the Crawleys, against one-off villains. That gets more boring the more they repeat it.

 

Lord Sinderby's love child. Now, that's why I like Rose, and why the show needs her. The show needs someone who cares about other people and is smart and resourceful. You know, like Anna used to be. I assume Lily James is leaving for good?

 

Carson and Mrs. Hughes. Awwwwww. Surprised they didn't save it for the finale though.

 

As for Tom moving to Boston, I suppose it had to be done. It's necessary characterwise, even though it's bad storylinewise. With him and Rose gone, the only young people left on the show are Mary and her boring love affais, and wet blanket Edith.

[Andorra]

Well I'm done. I've been a huge fan of the show, but this just one disappointment of too many. Now Tom is gone. The only character I truly cared about. I won't watch any more.

 

I found the whole episode boring and corny and without Tom there is no reason to watch left.

 

Anna/Bates: who cares?

Carson/Hughes: who cares?

Green's murder still unknown

The soup storyline was the dumbest I've ever watched on television

another suitor for Mary: Who cares?

Edith's no suitor is a sob. Who cares?

Robert has an ulcer: Who cares?

Isobel won't marry Merton = sad.

 

No farewell scene for Tom and Mrs Hughes. No scene for him and Isobel in the whole series although they had such a nice relationship last series.

 

Nope. Done. Goodbye all, it was nice talking to you.

[millahnna]

I'm torn on the Anna stuff. On the one hand, I'd have hated if the writers just forgot entirely about the rape. Bad continuity makes me cranky and it's xmas so I'm already pretty cranky. On the other hand, Fellowes rreally does only have three ideas doesn't he?

[Andorra]

Yes and he even had Anna being sexually abused as a child now, too! He's sick in his head if you ask me.

 

The episode got awful ratings btw. Can't say I'm sorry to hear it! The worst ratings the show ever got, only 8th most watched show yesterday!

 

Excuse when I laugh. I'm so done. Good for Allen Leech to leave the sinking ship!

[Broderbits]

Did my ears deceive me, or did very tipsy Robert call Sybbie "Marigold" by mistake in the scene where he asked what she should call him? It was surprising Mary didn't comment because she's always so quick to jump on everyone else's faults, especially when it relates to Edith. 

 

I suspect the Bates' storyline is a way to show how loyal and wonderful Mary is, but it just doesn't ring true to me. She's the one character I absolutely can't stand.

[abbyzenn]

For the most part I enjoyed this episode.  Actually I enjoyed season 5 as a whole.

The two things I didn't like:  The Anna/Bates prison story and the Denker/Butler story.

 

The scenery at that castle  was beautiful.

 

Since Tom is my favorite character I hate to see him go.  I thought for sure he'd decide to stay.  I hope we learn the backstory here - did Allen want to leave or Julian felt there were no more story lines.  It doesn't appear Allen has anywork lined up - unless he didn't want to announce any until after this special appeared.  The only work he got during this break seems to be a very small role that was maybe a last minute thing so I'm not sure why he'd want to leave a steady paycheck.  He always talks about what a great time they have on the set but maybe he was just so bored with his story line (or lackthereof).  But I certainly don't hold it against him for leaving.

 

Even more than Tom I'll miss Sybbie.  The little girl that plays him is just adorable although we never got to see or hear her that much I thought she lit up the screen when she was there.  Don't get the same vibe from the other two kids but that might be because they're too young.

 

Surprised at the Carson proposal.  That was a well kept secret!

[Tetraneutron]

I'm surprised more people aren't sad about Rose leaving. She seemed much more important to the show than Tom, who, in the last two seasons was reduced to being a sounding board for Mary and Edith when he wasn't moping around. I mean, it was great when he did talk to them because it made the other characters more likeable, but still. The last interesting plotline for the character was when Edna pretended she was pregnant and tried to blackmail him. Tom isn't really needed on the show.

 

Rose, on the other hand, drove interesting plots and actually did stuff. Even in this episode, Rose defended the family, saved Lord Sinderby, repaired her relationship with him, and saved Tom. She was the engine of all that fun Prince stuff in the last Christmas special. She was a more dynamic character, and I think it's more relevant to the show to have a Jazz Age rebel than a socialist. Besides, she's fun. Without her, the only two young people at Downton are dour and serious.

[Helena Dax]

Thomas is becoming an evil Jeeves XD I can't wait to find out if the new footman is gay because I want Thomas to have a boyfriend.

 

Not gonna lie, when Carson started to tell Hugues about the house I was crying like a baby. I've shipped them for years! And I think it's great to give romantic storylines to senior characters.

 

On the other hand,  that guy, Talbot, is he a new actor? I thought he was one of Mary's old suitors. 

 

Bates and Anna's story is so ridiculous I can't even. Why is Fellowes so fixated in sending them to prison? It doesn't make any sense!

[saki]

Thought this was a bit of a curate's egg.  The first half, especially, dragged quite a lot for me.

 

Things I liked:

 

Carson and Mrs Hughes - aww! Though I was quite surprised - I had realised that he liked her romantically but I wasn't convinced that it was reciprocated.

 

Molseley and Baxter - as always.  Surely they will get together soon?

 

Drunk Robert was amusing too - "You forget, I was in the army" - brilliant!

 

All of Edith's clothes.  She really looks lovely in that deep orange colour.

 

Rose - so lovely, so socially graceful.  

Rose and Atticus as a couple - very sad that they are leaving.  Agreed with someone up thread that losing them will cost the show more than Tom who didn't really have any storylines anyway.

 

Things I didn't like:

 

Bates and Anna.  Just couldn't care less at this point.

 

The writing for Mary and her Mary men.  I think the very first words out of new suitor's mouth was something along the lines of "I like you, Mary!"  It's just so clunky!  Edith's interaction with the estate manager felt much more normal - they had a normal conversation and he was clearly a little interested and they had a dance and stuff, it felt realistic. Whereas, it somehow always seems to be necessary for the Mary men to fall for her instantaneously.  So boring!  Why can't we shake things up a bit and have Mary pursue a man for a change?  Or have her fall for someone who is married?  Even just someone who looked a bit different to all the others would help..

 

The soup storyline.  Really?  Not interested in Denker, in general.

 

Am gutted that Isobel isn't marrying Lord Merton.

 

Neutral on - 

 

Edith and the estate manager - reserving judgement.  Agreed that he will end up replacing Tom as estate manager.

Tom leaving.  He is a nice guy and plays a useful role in being Edith and Mary's sounding board.  But it didn't make any sense for him to live at Downton and, because of that, he has had no proper storyline in forever.  I realise a certain proportion of the fanbase think the actor is really hot but he doesn't do it for me.  So I can't say that I'll miss him all that much.

 

Having said that, I thought that there were some really strong Tom/Mary hints in that episode so I'm not ruling out him returning.

 

Re: ratings, Downton was competing with Eastenders (a very popular soap) so I suspect quite a few people will be watching it on catch-up rather than live which will have hit the immediate ratings.  I think the adjusted ratings after people who watch on catch-up are published, it will do better. But the show has seen a steady decline in ratings for some time, to be honest.

[Glade]

This really is the period version of "a show about nothing," except it's not funny or terribly interesting either.  Case in point, the Bates's storyline, which should have been cut out altogether unless Fellows can find some way of making it interesting or important; make the real killer someone we know, don't give us another obtuse and poorly written conclusion to a dragged out murder non-mystery.   Though I like Matthew Goode, I really don't buy him as a potential love interest for Mary.  This was not flirtatious bickering, it was Mary intruding into a matter that was none of her business to shame someone and make them feel bad for being at a party, despite the fact that as she admitted, there was no way to make up for it at that point.  There was no chemistry, it was completely tepid and frankly I imagine he'd just as soon have run her over with his car in that last scene as imagine proposing marriage. 

 

Edith was lovely with her hair down, it's too bad the fashion of the day wouldn't allow her to display those gorgeous locks 24/7.  And I am glad that she got a love interest, who seemed much more promising then Mary's.  I would think that Mrs. Hughes would have mentioned her sister back when she almost died of cancer in S3 or considered another proposal in S1, but nonetheless it was nice that she and Carson will have a happy ending; they certainly deserve it more then their oppressors upstairs. I guess if Bonneville wants out of his contract, then he can just die in episode 1 of next season, which would be great.   It was disappointing that both Isobel and Violet's love interest storylines went nowhere, yet again most of what's happened in the past season has no consequences and can just be chucked aside for more aimless wandering. 

 

I doubt I will even notice that Rose is gone, since she never really integrated into the show in any serious way.  We better not get an even more watered down 'replacement Rose' next season.   And I'm happy for Tom, that he won't spend another year gazing wistfully out the window and wondering what life he could have somewhere else.  He, Sibby and Sybil could have emigrated to America at the end of S3, and it would have been better then what we've gotten for Tom in the meantime.  Stretching out a three season show into 6+ seasons, all written on the fly by one uninspired and repetitive mind makes for boring, tedious tv.    

Edited December 26, 2014 by Glade

[Cramps]

Lord Sinderby's illegitimate son would never have shared his first name, "Daniel." Ashkenazi Jews aren't named after living relatives. That's why you don't see any "juniors."

Either Downton's impeccable research doesn't extend past the cutlery, or they didn't think the audience would be smart enough to figure out that plot point unless we were bashed on the head with it.

That said I do love disappearing into the beautiful Downton world.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Cramps

[saki]

Cramps - to be fair, we don't know that the mistress was Jewish.  Pretty sure that she will have named the child rather than Lord Sinderby.

[Cramps]

Yes but he is so controlling, I find it very hard to believe. It's a big no no.

[Lady Grump]

Seriously, Matthew Goode does absolutely nothing for me on The Good Wife. But as the jaunty, humbly profligate, British country side-dwelling, race car driver? He is Everything. I will be pissed if he doesn't come back. Cousin Matthew who?

Edited December 26, 2014 by Lady Grump

[ElizaD]

The Carson/Hughes proposal was wonderfully sweet, the best moment of the episode.

 

It's such a shame that Tom is leaving, I really thought he'd stay when he couldn't give Sybbie a reason why they should go. I was never very interested in Sybil/Tom, just didn't click for me even though they're a popular pairing, but I do think the show did a wonderful job after Sybil's death making him a viable character in his own right and not just the love interest. Tom's S4-S5 love interests were flops, but the big love affair was between him and the Crawleys. I completely believed in all the love he's been getting from Mary, Edith and Robert recently. Cora was always more prepared to welcome him; Tom earned the others' respect.

 

I only know Matthew Goode by name, but maybe it's star quality, he was the first love interest who seemed like he could deal with Mary as an equal and not as a suitor seeking favors. I hope he comes back.

 

Everything seems to be in place for 6 as the final season. Maybe they'll want to continue, but they could have a very happy ending after a season's development of the current plotlines. The Carsons retire, Thomas gets to be the butler, Anna and Bates have a baby and leave Downton, Molesley and Baxter stay at Downton but will retire together one day, Patmore and Daisy continue to be family. Robert and Cora are proud grandparents, Mary hooks up with Matthew Goode, Edith's new man takes Tom's job managing the estate, Tom and Rose return for a visit in the finale.

[Lady Grump]

 

Everything seems to be in place for 6 as the final season. Maybe they'll want to continue, but they could have a very happy ending after a season's development of the current plotlines. The Carsons retire, Thomas gets to be the butler, Anna and Bates have a baby and leave Downton, Molesley and Baxter stay at Downton but will retire together one day, Patmore and Daisy continue to be family. Robert and Cora are proud grandparents, Mary hooks up with Matthew Goode, Edith's new man takes Tom's job managing the estate, Tom and Rose return for a visit in the finale.

 

All of this. Yes! And, hopefully, Fellowes will wrap up the Martyrs Bates storyline within the first 5 minutes of the first episode.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Lady Grump

[Andorra]

And I'm happy for Tom, that he won't spend another year gazing wistfully out the window and wondering what life he could have somewhere else.  He, Sibby and Sybil could have emigrated to America at the end of S3, and it would have been better then what we've gotten for Tom in the meantime.  Stretching out a three season show into 6+ seasons, all written on the fly by one uninspired and repetitive mind makes for boring, tedious tv.    

 

Amen to that. And I'm happy for me, too, because I finally realized what a crap show this is and what an awful writer Julian Fellows is. I was one of his biggest defenders, but not any more.

I hope Allen will have better things to do next year than spend his time on this crap.

[Clockwork Banana]

Did my ears deceive me, or did very tipsy Robert call Sybbie "Marigold" by mistake in the scene where he asked what she should call him? It was surprising Mary didn't comment because she's always so quick to jump on everyone else's faults, especially when it relates to Edith. 

 

I suspect the Bates' storyline is a way to show how loyal and wonderful Mary is, but it just doesn't ring true to me. She's the one character I absolutely can't stand.

I will answer to the above quote in a second.  But first:

 

Oh my.  So much hate from the posters so far. SO much nitpickery!  I personally quite enjoyed this anticipated episode.

 

Yes, some of the story lines were clunky and contrived.  I have actually been quite disappointed in this season as a whole to date, and personally I think that the series has run its course.  But I still continue to watch because the good bits far outweigh the bad.  This is the reason I continued to view.  I finished this  episode with a good feeling in my heart and a sense of satisfaction.  So for me, that counts as a successful hour and a half of my time.  And no, I am no fricken Pollyanna.  It just kind of bugs me that Fellowes has created a show that became internationally renowned and revered, but we all feel the need to decide that we could have written it better. 

'OOH, I don't care about this character.  OOH, I don't care about this plot point.  OOh, I could have done this so much better!' Bruther.

 

As I stated, I truly believe that the series could easily have been wrapped up, based on this last episode.  Most major story lines are completed; people are moving on; 'the times they are a changing', and so on.  However, so it goes.

 

As to the quoted comment.  No, tipsy Robert did not get the kiddos names mixed up.  He was holding Sibby and asking her what Marigold, who is currently non-verbal due to her age, what Marigold should call him.  Sibby responded with "Donc". 

[Cramps]

With regard to Julian Fellowes' writing: he has written two great novels, a wonderful award winning screenplay, and a brilliant first season of Downton. But there is a reason American shows have writing staffs of more than one person, and at this point it would have really helped the show if Fellowes worked with other writers --at the very least to come up with stories for the more recent seasons of Downton. He's repeated himself too many times and relied on storylines that were weak. It was really evident the past two seasons and in this Christmas episode.

I --and seemingly we--pick on him and the show on this thread, because he set the bar so high with his first season and we love the show. We have seen he is capable of better, and bringing in some writers to work with him would probably have helped-- even if he penned the final drafts himself for continuity sake.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Cramps

[ThomasAAnderson]

Standing Ovation to your entire post Clockwork Banana!

 

 

[Athena]

I caught up to this show as I let it fall by the wayside this past autumn. While I still have many issues with the writing and plots, it is still a pretty show with some nice acting and character moments. Thank goodness I can fast forward though.

 

The bad: The Bates. Ugh. I don't care about Danker and Sprout. I am so disappointed that Isobel isn't marrying Merton! I actually shipped them!

 

The good: I can't believe Matthew Goode is perhaps, maybe coming to this show? That definitely makes me excited and less sad about Tom/Allen leaving. I don't want Tom to go but as character development, it makes sense. Same with Rose. I've grown to like Rose more this past series, but she should be married and happy. I ended up really enjoying her and Attitcus's storylines. Edith is happy again and she a new suitor too! Viva Carson/Hughes. I generally liked the downstairs storylines (except the Bates) more this past series. I like when Thomas schemes for the Crawleys. Daisy is a lot more bearable now that she has goals and less mopeyness. I like Mosley/Baxter too.

[vesperholly]

Matthew Goode! The plot and dialogue couldn't be more trite but he and Michelle Dockery have actual chemistry ... finally.

 

I really liked Edith's land agent guy and I certainly hope the bring him over to Downton for her. Now kiss! I also wish she would've told Mary about Marigold, especially since she has the full backing of both her parents. Though I see that Mary still isn't over the petty jibes ("I just don't want to be stuck here with you").

 

There were way too many plots thrown in and new characters introduced. I can't believe we spent more scenes on Denker's chicken soup disaster than Lord Sinderby's mistress and love child. WTF?

 

I never got any romance vibes from Carson and Mrs. Hughes AT ALL, but I do appreciate the Elderly Romance plots. Isobel is far too accepting but I kind of see her point - if her sons-in-laws are huge jackasses, they could conceivably freeze out Lord Merton from his entire family and grandchildren. Though I'm sure a few threats of disinheritance might have gone over better than "please like my girlfriend" pleas.

 

Still ship Moseley and Baxter. Dawww.

[DeepRunner]

Yes, preferably with Mrs. Patmore saying, "Oh look, we've got a letter from the Bateses! So happy that they moved to America as members of Rose and Atticus' staff."

 

As a Bates apologist, I will never...n-e-v-e-r...understand the Bates hate. I get the Thomas hate, the Mary hate (even stirring that up a bit), the Cora hate, etc. Never will understand the Bates hate. Has Fellowes flattened them? YES, like he has all of his characters. After all, in S3 and S4, Cora has been a loopy, dopey American who had more of a brain and a spine in the early seasons. He flattened O'Brien, who was the most fascinating of all the characters. He made Robert a moron. He turned Mary into a 1000-degrees, white-hot B****. 

 

I like the characters. Hate the storylines. Which may be what you're saying.

 

 

S5 will start on this side next Sunday.

[Andorra]

 

But I still continue to watch because the good bits far outweigh the bad.

 

See? But that's just it. The good doesn't outweigh the bad any more. It is only crap now. Fellows destroyed all the lovely characters he created by repetitive, unimaginitive and garbage storylines and I'm just done with putting up with it. I was one of his biggest defenders but there have been too many disappointments.

 

So no, I won't continue watching and I will vent about my disappointment whereever and however often I can until I got it all of my chest.

[Tetraneutron]

I don't hate the Bateses. I like them, which is why it's so FRUSTRATING with this storyline. How much tragedy could one couple go through? Being falsely accused of murder three separate times between them? It's a bit ridiculous. Especially when all they do is act sad and mopey and wait for divine justice to fall out of the sky. Bates is still a bit dynamic, but Anna's become such a dishrag. Showing the aftermath of the rape was such a wasted opportunity. 

 

 

Isobel is far too accepting but I kind of see her point

The whole thing was such silly contrivance. Fellowes didn't want to change the Isobel/Violet dynamic, so he pulled from thin air a reason for Isobel to dump Merton. It made her into a weak person, someone who lets herself be pushed around and bullied. That's not the Isobel we've been watching. That Isobel would have demanded respect or told the sons to shove it. 

 

 

Season six finale should have a voice over from one of the kids (now elderly) that wraps up everyone's lives.

I don't know. Marigold's the youngest, and she'll be well into her nineties by the time the show ends. Besides, it's too pat. I like that we live in the present with these characters. They don't know what the future will hold for them.

 

 

Lord Sinderby's illegitimate son would never have shared his first name, "Daniel." Ashkenazi Jews aren't named after living relatives. That's why you don't see any "juniors."

 Yeah, but it was made pretty clear that Lord Sinderby wasn't involved in the child's life and would have preferred it if he never saw the child. The mistress was given a particularly un-Jewish name, and it seemed clear to the audience that she was into him more than the other way round. Besides, naming the child Daniel was pretty clearly a way to have the audience know what was going on. It wasn't supposed to reflect a close relationship between Sinderby and Diana.  I kind of wish Rose had rubbed it in a bit when Lord Sinderby was apologizing to her. If there's anyone who has no cause to look down on divorces and interfaith relationships it's that guy. 

 

 

I wonder who wrote the fake letter.

Thomas did. He disguised his handwriting. The show seems unsure of what to do with Thomas. (They're unsure of what to do with every character, but Thomas especially). They've made him nicer, but they still want him to scheme. But if he's no longer self-interested and is happy with his place at Downton, what does he have to scheme about? It leaves him with nothing to do but get the best of strangers the audience doesn't care about and aren't a threat to him or the Crawleys. Does anyone have any ideas for this character going forward? I've thought about it and I'm stumped.

 

Also, there was a lot of attention drawn to the fact that Matthew Goode's character likes cars. Think that will end up being an issue somehow? Probably, as it's a lame contrivance. 

[romantic idiot]

Nah, I think it was just a way to show that he was "cool". 

 

Either way, more Mathew Goode please, even if it does mean more Mary. Or...on the other hand, Henry's friend Charles seemed like a solitary sort and they were chummy. Maybe we could see Mathew become a love interest for Thomas. That would be fun. 

[Lillith]

I actually enjoyed the Christmas Special overall.  I liked that Edith didn't have constant humiliation and tragedy raining down upon her for a change.  Her moments with Robert and Tom were very nice.  And it was also nice to see her get a potential love interest.  Of course we all know that none of this can last for long and this will all be ripped from her hands by about episode 2-3 of next season.

 

Now Michelle Dockery is lovely and a good actress but the way men fall instantly in love with her is too much.  She's very attractive but Helen of Troy she's not. And again could we just let go of the Mary sniping at Edith stuff? Mary, pull an Elsa and Let It Go!

 

It is good to see that they make use of Moseley for more than sad-sack comic relief, I enjoy his character and his relationship with Baxter, whose also grown on me.

 

Dame Maggie and Penelope Wilton are always lovely to watch.  It was so touching and I thought rather understandable (and unfair) for Mrs. Crawley to end it due to the douchebag sons.  She's knows they'd never give her a moments kindness or peace and who wants to love with that.  And the Dowager Countess was quite a firecracker back in the day!  Well why should the late Earl have all the fun?

[Jillybilly]

Overall enjoyable episode.

 

I'm shocked that Tom is leaving.  I thought for sure there would be something that happened that made him stay.  Sorry to see him and Sybbie go - she's adorable and would have liked to seen more of her.  Next season she could have had some bigger speaking parts.

 

Edith is really afraid of Mary finding out about Marigold.  What does she think Mary will do?  Throw her out of the nursery she shares with George?

 

Something I missed - probably because I fast forwarded thru the Bates stuff - who sent the telegram to Lord Sinderby's mistress?

[Avaleigh]

I hate being late to the episode party but the holidays and work made it so that I couldn't watch the episode until now. I read comments before seeing it so I went in with lowered expectations and ended up enjoying the vast bulk of it.

I loved the proposal scene and was also moved to tears as a couple of other posters were. I think it's great that this show features so many interesting couples or would be couples that are older.

I loved all of the scenes at Alnwick Castle. It's for stuff like this that I continue to be devoted to this show.

Too bad about Isobel and Merton. I agree with those who feel that Isobel's behavior was out of character and that it would have felt natural for her to put up more of a fight. I also dislike Violet feeling that Dr Clarkson is acceptable while Lord Merton isn't because to me this suggests that Violet is threatened and/or feels uncomfortable with the idea of Isobel marrying a title whereas she's totally okay with Isobel marrying Clarkson because she feels that Clarkson is on Isobel's level. I just find that attitude to be distasteful and I forgive Violet for a lot stuff. I love the Isobel/Violet friendship but I think it could have remained intact even if one or both of the women had fully committed to their new relationships. I didn't expect Violet to end up with the prince but I did think Isobel had a chance with sweet Merton so that was a bummer.

I didn't think there was anything odd about Sinderby's kid being named Daniel and agree that it's unlikely that his mistress is Jewish. The guy is probably a total hypocrite and would likely have been disapproving if say he'd been in Robert's position with Robert being in his. I doubt he's been involved much in the life of that kid and that Diana more than likely chose the name.

Rose really is too sweet and I'm going to miss her if this ends up being her last appearance.

Loved Molesley and Baxter helping Bates. Pretty much the only thing I liked about the Bates storyline. For the record though I don't hate the characters of Anna or Bates I just feel that their storylines tend to be a drag and haven't really enjoyed them in a scene since the Christmas Special back in season 3.

I'm still unconvinced that AL is leaving for good. Is there any reason to think that the character can't come back at some point next season even if it's only for an episode or two? Same with Lily and the character of Rose?

I'm one of those who feel that it was worth it to keep Tom around and agree with ElizaD that it was great to see Tom win over characters like Mary, Edith, and Robert who weren't all that keen on him in the beginning. He won me over as he was winning them over and that wouldn't have happened for me if they'd never come back from Ireland.

Also, as much as I adore Tom now and would much prefer to see him stay, I have to agree with those who feel that his presence is no longer necessary and that the show shoud easily be able to go on without him. He just isn't that tied into the plot. He definitely could have been but the writing didn't go that way. In no way is he the only reason I watch the show. If that had been the case and he was the only reason I was sticking around I probably would have dumped the show back in the third or fourth season. Thankfully, I enjoy most of the characters and care very much what happens to most of them with the possible exception of horrible Thomas and even then I'll admit to being mildly curious.

I think Matthew Goode's character works and at no point did I think he was going overboard in that Gillingham-ish way where he thinks that Mary is IT five minutes after meeting her. This guy seemed put off by her more than once so I don't think this is going to be a case of Mary winning a guy over because he thinks she's the most beautiful woman in the world or anything like that. I also thought that he appreciated her honesty about what was going on regarding the shooting party. I personally would want to know if I was putting my hosts out so I wasn't offended that she let him know what the deal was. I got the impression that he was intrigued by her personality rather than being blown away by her beauty.

Drunk!Robert is one of my favorite flavors. My heart was also touched with Robert's half-hearted attempt to get his (favorite) grandchild to stay at Downton. Too sweet, and I know this will sounds ridiculous but I hate the thought of Sybbie developing an American accent. I'm American btw. ;-)

Oh--and at the risk of going into Real Housewives terminology for a moment--I thought it was hilarious that Violet basically admitted that she was a stealth slut back in the day. She even ended up in a hair pulling tussle over a guy like some participant on a reality show. I LOL over that reveal. I thought it was odd at first that she referred to herself as an Edwardian when her sexual adventures would have taken place in the Victorian era but maybe she was basically saying that she was part of Edward VII's "fast" set back when he was still Prince of Wales?

Edited December 28, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Glaze Crazy]

Something I missed - probably because I fast forwarded thru the Bates stuff - who sent the telegram to Lord Sinderby's mistress?

 

They didn't make it clear, but I got the impression it was Thomas, working with whatever secrets Lord Sinderby's butler spilled to him when he was drinking and griping about being dressed down at dinner that night.  Thomas was mad that he got called out also, since he "sent" the note that messed up the dinner, as a favor, in order to pay back Sinderby's butler for treating Tom badly.  The butler did say to Thomas the next day that he might have said too much, whereas Thomas said his (own) brain was a sieve. Plus, the butler looked horrified when the woman and little boy appeared, so he knew it was his slip up, I assumed to Thomas.  They preshadowed the whole thing near the beginning, when Rose said the staff knew far more about the family than the family knew about the staff.

 

The Hughes/Carson proposal was kind of out of left field, but when I thought about it, they have sort of been a team from the beginning, running the house from downstairs.  If it's not OTT "lurve" it's at least a solid friendship, partnership and affection to stay together after they retire from service.

 

Glad for the addition of Matthew Goode.  I only recognize him from some romcom movie from a few years ago, but he is charming.  I hope they keep his character strong and not another doormat for Mary.

 

I'm sad to see Tom go.  I was hoping for some last minute change of heart so he could stay.  I will also miss Rose, if just for the more lighthearted air she brought upstairs.

 

Is it true that there will only be one more series?  I'm good with that since unique storylines for this show are getting thin on the ground for JF, apparently.

[Tetraneutron]

They didn't make it clear, but I got the impression it was Thomas, working with whatever secrets Lord Sinderby's butler spilled to him when he was drinking and griping about being dressed down at dinner that night. 

It wasn't Thomas, it was the asshole butler working for the Aldridges. That was his revenge for Lord Sinderby dressing him down at the dinner when the butler was mean to Tom. When we learn that he knows everyone's secrets, that was setting that up. Remember afterwards, when Rose goes the the butler and basically blackmails him, saying if he doesn't start treating Tom better she's telling Lord Sinderby the truth?

 

That's one of the reasons I like Rose as a character. I'm partial to characters who DO things, and on this show that means being socially adept. Rose has that, Mary has it (even if it's most;y used in service of her incredibly dull love affairs these days), Mrs. Hughes has it. Violet sometimes has it. Thomas varies wildly, in that he's a master manipulator whose schemes fail most of the time.

 

As for Edith and the estate agent, that could be interesting if the show explores the dramatic possibilities, which it won't. The estate agent being a poor relation (and if a bunch of his relatives die he gets a title) and so is Edith in a way, they're minor nobility falling to middle class and having to actually work for a living, and what does that mean.

[Starchild]

It wasn't Thomas, it was the asshole butler working for the Aldridges. That was his revenge for Lord Sinderby dressing him down at the dinner when the butler was mean to Tom. When we learn that he knows everyone's secrets, that was setting that up. Remember afterwards, when Rose goes the the butler and basically blackmails him, saying if he doesn't start treating Tom better she's telling Lord Sinderby the truth?

No I don't think so. When she appeared he had a look of horror on his face. I think he very quickly realized that Thomas used the info he spilled and used it to embarrass his master, who would know that Stowell is one of the few who knows she exists. Rose's blackmail was based on not telling Sinderby that she was summoned by a mysterious note, making it obvious that Stowell had spilled the beans to someone.

[romantic idiot]

I liked the small joke they had with Goode's character, bringing up Catholics. At least i choose to take it as a subtle reference.

[saki]

I think Matthew Goode's character works and at no point did I think he was going overboard in that Gillingham-ish way where he thinks that Mary is IT five minutes after meeting her. This guy seemed put off by her more than once so I don't think this is going to be a case of Mary winning a guy over because he thinks she's the most beautiful woman in the world or anything like that. I also thought that he appreciated her honesty about what was going on regarding the shooting party. I personally would want to know if I was putting my hosts out so I wasn't offended that she let him know what the deal was. I got the impression that he was intrigued by her personality rather than being blown away by her beauty.

 

He wasn't blown away in the same way as Gillingham or Matthew but I did think it was clear that he was struck by her beauty immediately.  Pretty much the first thing he says was something along the lines of "I don't mind you being here" which, since Mary hadn't really said anything to him, kind of had to be about her looks.  He then asks her to dance, despite her having been rude to him, and half promises to come to visit her at Downton.  

 

I would really have preferred to have seen something a bit different this time - why can't Mary be struck by his appearance and pursue him?

[Helena Dax]

Oh--and at the risk of going into Real Housewives terminology for a moment--I thought it was hilarious that Violet basically admitted that she was a stealth slut back in the day. She even ended up in a hair pulling tussle over a guy like some participant on a reality show. I

 

I didn't have the feeling that  they were fighting  over a guy. The way she told it, it was like the princess was trying to save her from a scandal which would have ruined the life of the four of them.  I mean, she sent lady Violet in a carriage back to her husband. That's a bit classier  XD

[Avaleigh]

No I don't think so. When she appeared he had a look of horror on his face. I think he very quickly realized that Thomas used the info he spilled and used it to embarrass his master, who would know that Stowell is one of the few who knows she exists. Rose's blackmail was based on not telling Sinderby that she was summoned by a mysterious note, making it obvious that Stowell had spilled the beans to someone.

I agree with this interpretation. The butler looked almost as sick feeling as Lord Sinderby did when Diana and Daniel walked in. No way had he expected Thomas to run with his comments like that. I'm guessing though that he won't be sacked since that would require admitting or indirectly acknowledging something that Lord Sinderby doesn't want any more attention drawn to.

I was sort of puzzled by the interaction between the butler and the Sinderbys overall. Lord Sinderby goes out of his way to make sure the staff take orders from his butler even though he knows this causes some difficulty so I initially thought that they had a close and respectful employer employee relationship where there is trust on either side. I'm thinking he's indispensable to them like Carson is to the Crawleys but then we see early on that Lady Sinderby for her part doesn't seem to particularly care for him and one gets the impression that she just sort of puts up with his presence for the sake of her husband rather the way Robert tolerated O'Brien for Cora. Ly S wonders why the butler thinks he always knows better than they do and Ld S's reply is that he does when it comes to stuff like knowing where tea should be served. To me this suggests that their butler was hired in part because of his snobbishness and general knowledge how things are "supposed" to be done. It's less clear to me why a snob like this guy would have applied to work for the Sinderbys in the first place but Ly S did say that they pay well so maybe that's it.

I thought Ld S wildly overreacted to the prank even though it was obvious (heh) that his butler wasn't involved. Why did he fight to keep his butler there while they were renting the house if he has such a low opinion of him? That sort of hostility doesn't just develop overnight.

[Guest]

I'm really happy with the way they handled Robert and Edith's interaction. I have to say I wish Edith would snap back at Mary for a change instead of just looking offended. Like when they were on the train and Edith was worrying and Mary said she was the only mother there - I wish Edith had just snapped back with 'At least I care'. But good - she was cheery, and didn't cry and is talking to the real estate agent. Soldier on, Edith!

I thought I'd hate the 'us' and 'them' shtick with the Downtoners and Ld S, butThomas was back to his scheming ways (Team Downton, go!) and he sold me that plotline. I liked Danker and the other butler who speaks like a robot/zombie. The soup affair was entertaining and light filler stuff.

Ok, so Ld S has a mistress and a child. And they appeared out of the blue at a (formal?) dinner. Does Lady S have any tiny clue? Is that Rose's husband's half-brother in the car? Why does the new husband look so unaware of what's going on? This plotline just seemed so scattered I could barely wrap my head around that, when suddenly, Ld S is doing a complete 180 with Rose. I mean, yes, Rose is great and fun - but did Ld S spend weeks building up his animosity towards her, so that it could be resolved in a 3-minute scene?

Edited December 28, 2014 by Trichromatic

[betha]

Also, there was a lot of attention drawn to the fact that Matthew Goode's character likes cars. Think that will end up being an issue somehow? Probably, as it's a lame contrivance.

Nah, I think it was just a way to show that he was "cool".

I think it will be an issue. Remember the line after Mary said she was a widow, when Matthew Goode's character said, "The war made a lot of young widows." Mary was about to tell him how Matthew died. She said "no, it wasn't the war, it was..." and they were interrupted by the birds flying out. She's going to fall for him but be terrified of or disapprove of his love of cars, or maybe it will be what holds her back at first.

I really enjoyed this episode! Especially the butler-Thomas hijinks, Edith and Robert's conversation, and the proposal. I felt quite satisfied by this finale. I am a bit disappointed that we won't get to see Isobel as a Lady, at least for now (maybe the son will die next season, or fall for a commoner himself, who knows) but I am not heartbroken. She seemed to be iffy about it anyway.

When Robert and Edith were talking and she asked for forgiveness and he said something like "I suspect you have even more to forgive me for," what do you think he was referring to? Ignoring her to the point where he didn't even realize she had a child? Treating her as a second class daughter her whole life? Something more specific? Is he that self-aware?

Edited December 28, 2014 by betha

[panthergirl13]

I enjoyed it, particularly because my daughter was here to watch with me and we just shriek and laugh through the whole thing (except when Carson proposed at which point we were just shrieking with some crying). 

 

The show is more enjoyable after seeing that sendup they did... it just seems like no one takes any of it very seriously and it's played for camp.

 

But one last thing... Hey Bates? You don't sneak up on a twice-raped woman! She should have stabbed him and then pushed him in front of the dessert cart. MYSTERY SOLVED!

[Pogojoco]

 

Denker, Spratt, and the stupid soup no one cares about. Why any of it? Why all this focus on a character no one knows? Why would Denker be clever and conniving the previous episode and a total idiot now? Why would the proper Dowager Countess even care if her lady's maid could cook? I can't believe that Maggie Smith didn't storm into the writers' room to say to Julian Fellowes, "I have an Oscar, I'm not saying this shit." 

 

The horrifying thing, of course, is that Julian Fellowes has an Oscar, too. 

[Starchild]

She's going to fall for him but be terrified of or disapprove of his love of cars, or maybe it will be what holds her back at first.

Do you think so? I got the impression that as he jumped in the car and drove off, she was staring after him with her tongue practically hanging out. To me, she looked fascinated, intrigued and very interested BECAUSE of the car.

[saki]

When Robert and Edith were talking and she asked for forgiveness and he said something like "I suspect you have even more to forgive me for," what do you think he was referring to? Ignoring her to the point where he didn't even realize she had a child? Treating her as a second class daughter her whole life? Something more specific? Is he that self-aware?

 

That's a really good point.  Because, as a viewer, I'm aware that Edith has a lot to forgive Robert for, I didn't really think about it but it's true that Robert isn't usually that self-aware.

 

Separately, I love Alun Armstrong so I loved him as Evil Butler (I spent most of the episode going "Evil Brian! Evil Brian is great!" - New Tricks fans will understand..) but I totally agree that that whole storyline made very little sense.  

[darkestboy]

I really enjoyed this episode. If this was a departure for both Branson and Rose, then it was low key but effective enough.

Liked that Robert confronted Edith about who Marigold really was. I assume Mary will become privy at some point too.

Carson's proposal to Mrs Hughes was lovely. Fair play to them.

Andy's nice to look at and Thomas seemed pleased to have him back too. Liked that Thomas's scheming was used for good in this episode, even if he did go too far at times.

Rose helping out her father in law proved that she was loyal to the last yet again.

The scenes with Edith, Mary and Branson remembering Sybil was lovely.

Any scene with Violet and Isobel is worth watching.

Actually having the last fifteen minutes of the episode set at Christmas was good too.

That being said, there were things I didn't like too - the last thing we need is another suitor for Mary and Henry seemed a little dull for my liking.

Robert's health problems were poorly played and everything with Anna and Bates was tedious to watch.

Brothgate was boring as hell, wasn't it?

Other than, pretty much enjoyed this episode, 8/10

[firebookie]

What did Mrs. Hughes call Mr. Carson when he proposed? Booboo? Bobo? LOVE!

[Eolivet]

She called him "you old booby." But I'm one of five people on earth who finds a Carson/Hughes honest-to-goodness romance as creepy. I know, older people have needs, but I'd have preferred the implied "partners for life" relationship between them stay implied. I wasn't a fan of the contrived "Mrs. Hughes has a sick sister" subplot Fellowes pulled out of nowhere to suddenly impoverish Mrs. Hughes (and necessitate the marriage proposal). Why couldn't they have just bought a B&B together and lived in sin? Sigh.

 

I also totally understand that sometimes the fallout is more important than the action, but when the action is a murder, I don't know why Fellowes thought the audience would be satisfied by the answer to "Who killed Green" being "Neither Bates nor Anna." Even a throwaway line about "oh, my bad -- it was an accident after all!" And Anna's sad backstory was totally unnecessary, as well.

 

I'd have been happy to just sweep the Green murder under the rug -- I don't need to know who killed him, but when the show kept harping on it, I felt like it might be important. To switch gears so abruptly to "Oh, who cares -- Bates and Anna are together!" was pretty lazy. Unless the real killer is going to terrorize the Bates' in season 6.

 

This was my least favorite Christmas Special ever, and it makes me sad because I thought the finale was pretty strong (with the exception of Denker -- who I don't find funny or interesting). But this could've been half the length -- cut Yet Another Wacky Denker Subplot, "Molesley and Baxter: Amateur Detectives!", A Very Distasteful House Guest Stays With Violet For The Sole Purpose Of More Maggie Smith Withering Looks, Isobel and Lord Merton's lonnnnng breakup and Mrs. Hughes and Anna's sad backstories.

 

When you long for the good old days of Matthew being felled by a snappy chariot, things have gone horribly wrong.

 

Matthew Goode can stay, however.

[Andorra]

Eolivet

I agree with everything you said. Can't get the enthusiasm about this boring CS either. And it's not just because I'm so sad that Tom is leaving. His parts were at least nice to watch and sweet. But the whole Anna/Bates, Sinderby, Butler, Denker/Spratt/broth, Isobel/Merton and Violet/Kuragin mess was just dreadfully slow.

And I find the Carson/Hughes marriage as unnecessary as you do. They should have stayed this old married couple without mixing in some romance IMO. They're married for years anyway, why a proposal? It's OTT.

 

And I agree that Matthew Goode was the only good thing.