Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I watched Agents of Shield s1. I managed to stick with it to the end. I never returned for s2. It suffered from being tied to the movie franchise and having to buy time until the movies had their premieres and furthered the stories.

Is this new show why Artow s3 has sucked donkey balls? They were held down by this not so amazing development?

Edited February 27, 2015 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[Sakura12]

Come on Sara, if you keep coming back, no one is going to believe you the next time you die. At this point she should be Catwoman, since she has nine lives. 

 

The Lazarus Pits were controlled by the al Ghul's so not anyone can just use them. So it's not something they can use to bring back every character. They have to have a connection to an al Ghul like Sara does. The only two that have access to a pit in the comics are Ra's and Nyssa. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by Sakura12

[loki567]

Lazarus Pits feel like the natural solution to me on a season involving Ra's and Nyssa Al Ghul. And doesn't using it make you crazy? That's Sara's first season arc for the spin-off right there.

Edited February 27, 2015 by loki567

[strikera0]

I could turn out to be wrong, but I still think if Caity plays Sara again, it would probably be another version of her and not THE Sara Lance that died on Arrow in the season 3 premiere. There are lots of different ways to accomplish this (cloning, multipleverses, mutants or an android that looks like her). I also saw some interesting spec on another website. Basically, some of these characters could be recruited by ARGUS and end up in another subdivision called SHADE, which spawns a Creature Commandos unit. If they did that, Caity could play an entirely new character and be made up to look completely different with the help of prosthetic makeup. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by strikera0

[Morrigan2575]

I can't imagine them casting CL and it not being Sara...talk about adding insult on top of insult which is already sitting on top of injury.

Flash has already introduced time travel and the last Flash episode had Barry talking about going back and saving his mother, this could easily create a parallel universe which has Sara alive, she then crosses over into the main Flarrow continuity.

Or they could go the Lazarus Pit route, back in January when Campea was on CW Fan Talk

one of the writers showed a drawing of Sara coming out of the Pit and mentioned that it was something we hadnt seen on Arrow yet. Also, SA said we'd see the Lazarus Pit used on the show

My main thinking is that CL will be Sara but not Canary...maybe White Canary or Lady Blackhawk or another obscure DC character that they can use. Sadly, i don't think she'll be Canary or Black Canary

[tv echo]

I also think that CL will be playing Sara, but I have no idea how she's going to return from the dead. I think the EPs really wanted to show Sara's flashback scenes of her journey toward becoming the Canary and realized that they couldn't do it on Arrow.  They have too much going on this season and probably also realized the pointlessness of showing flashbacks of a character that's dead on this show.  So now they can do flashbacks on the spin-off of not just Sara but also Ray (maybe showing his relationship with Anna).

[Danny Franks]

My main thinking is that CL will be Sara but not Canary...maybe White Canary or Lady Blackhawk or another obscure DC character that they can use. Sadly, i don't think she'll be Canary or Black Canary

 

It's still pretty incredibly shitty if she doesn't get to keep the name that meant something to her. With her pet canary and it being the name she chose in the LoA. But she can't be called that any more, because Laurel has stolen it. 

[Guest]

The casting of the spin-off has completely thrown me tbh. Well, Caity Lotz has. I don't see how she can be anyone but Sara when all the other characters are from the Arrow/Flash universe. I mean, Sara wasn't just in one episode. She was basically female lead for a huge part of s2 of Arrow and everyone knows that. We'll see her on screen and immediately think she's Sara. It's asking a lot of the audience to just dismiss that.

 

And unless they're just going to dismiss/retcon Ray's storyline from this season of Arrow and start from scratch, I can't see how this could be from a different time, like five years previously or whatever. Because Ray wouldn't be the ATOM. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by Guest

[Sakura12]

Did they realize their mistake in getting rid of Sara? Yes, Laurel is slightly more liked than before but she is still not the Black Canary from any of the comics. 

 

Maybe they'll have Laurel figure out that she's not her sister and no longer has to honor her if she's alive. So she's the one that has to choose a different name like Manhunter.

 

Then the real Black Canary can over and lead the beginnings of a Justice League with ATOM and FireStorm like the comics. Or they are going with Team 7 from New 52 a black-ops military unit working for the U.S. Government. Team members in the comics include Deathstroke and Amanda Waller. And a bunch of people that have never been seen in live action. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by Sakura12

[manbearpig]

This sounds like a mess waiting to happen. But if it gets Brandon Routh off Arrow and Caity Lotz a regular gig it can't be too bad. I'll watch. I like Brandon Routh, just not on Arrow, and maybe he can even be fun when he isn't making me lose all interest in Felicity.

 

I'm not so sure about Sara, though. She was probably my favourite character (tied with Moira, perhaps), but...if this spin-off show takes place after Arrow then what was the point of killing her...again? I'll be happy to see her again, off course, but it's just going to make a pretty terrible season of Arrow look even worse if they just bring her back to life anyway. In any case Sara's awesome and I'll be happy to have her and Lotz on my screen again.

[dtissagirl]

If The Flash goes the way of those future newspapers Dr. Wells keep reading, they have to create at least one alternate reality so that the "crisis" actually happens. Maybe an alt!reality Sara Lance is sent through a rift in time-space to warn Team Flash about the crisis. And then she can't go back to her reality for ~reasons.

 

ETA. And I just realized this is pretty much what happened in the Smallville season 11 comics. Chloe from Earth-2 managed to cross dimensions 2 seconds before her own reality was destroyed, and folks from this side of the 'verse got a nice warning.

Edited February 27, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Sakura12]

 Maybe an alt!reality Sara Lance is sent through a rift in time-space to warn Team Flash about the crisis. And then she can't go back to her reality for ~reasons.

 

That is these writers favorite excuse. 

[tv echo]

Flash/Arrow Spinoff: Five Easy Ways to Bring Sara Lance Back

By Russ Burlingame  02/27/2015
http://comicbook.com/2015/02/27/flash-arrow-spinoff-five-easy-ways-to-bring-sara-lance-back/

 

Poll: Which DC superheroes do you want to see on an 'Arrow'/'Flash' spinoff?
by Lauren Gallaway Feb 27, 2015 | 12:51AM
http://community.ew.com/2015/02/27/new-cw-superhero-show-poll/

Edited February 27, 2015 by tv echo

[tarotx]

I still say making Sara a version of Resurrection man solves everything.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_Man_%28comics%29

I don't like things being altered. Time travel and alternate Universes have to be done well for them to work and I don't this team.

[Sakura12]

It's funny that they say the new show is starring ATOM, FireStorm, Captain Cold and Caity Lotz. Maybe she's going to play herself, a regular person with martial arts skills that decides to be a super hero. :D

[apinknightmare]

The thought of this team trying to introduce alt universes and time travel honestly makes me queasy. They leave out so much important info in just a regular timeline, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to follow alt realities and keep track of who's in what time period.

I really liked Sara, but I hope they don't Lazarus Pit her for this. I'm probably in the minority but I do think that resurrecting someone repeatedly does undermine the emotional journeys of the people around them. This is the third time Oliver's thought Sara died. It's the second time for the Lance family. I don't want to see all these people (including Diggle and Felicity) whose whole year has been driven by this one (stupid and not well thought out, yes) death come to the end of it only to see her pop up alive again and still be her. It's too much, I think. If it had been someone like Tommy who's only died once, maybe....I don't know. If she's still playing "Sara," I hope she's some kind of particle accelerator spawned clone or something.

Also, would they Lazarus Pit her on Arrow and incorporate her into the storyline with the intention of her being spun off? Isn't that a big risk to take considering a series hasn't been ordered yet? I'm assuming it will be, but if TPTB didn't like it or whatever, would they bring her back on Arrow or just have her die AGAIN or go off never to be heard from again?

[BkWurm1]

I think she'll be back. Whats the point of having a Lazarus Pit if you aren't going to use it?

 

Maybe she'll get the Jason Todd treatment and come back crazy. These writers do love to rip-off Batman stories, so its a distinct possibility.

Maybe instead of crazy she comes back with no knowledge of who she was?  Has the abilities ala Jason Bourne but doesn't know where they come from. Then there would be no reason to tell the people on Arrow and it could be an ongoing series mystery of her learning her past.   She wouldn't even have the name Sara.

 

Maybe Waller grabbed her body, used some Lazarus like tech and then brainwashed her into being an operative who they then send to keep an eye on Ray Palmer.

 

 

 

I'm already fearful they'll hook Sara up with Ray.

 

I really wish it were Brandon and Katie Cassidy with the spin-off.

 

Actually, I think a Ray/Sara romance could work.  It would be more like Olicity but in reverse.  Ray and Felicity are too much alike but not in a cute way, but in a boring way. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Danny Franks]

It's funny that they say the new show is starring ATOM, FireStorm, Captain Cold and Caity Lotz. Maybe she's going to play herself, a regular person with martial arts skills that decides to be a super hero. :D

 

That would still be far more plausible than a 30 year old lawyer who decides to become a vigilante after a handful of boxing lessons.

[tv echo]

I would love for Sara to return from the dead, but I still think it undermines the underlying motivation for all of season 3 of Arrow.  Just like Agent Coulson's resurrection on AOS undermined his emotional death that united and fueled the Avengers in the movie.

 

But I just don't care at this point because I think CL is a good actress with amazing fighting skills.

[quarks]

I think Victor Garber could probably anchor a show. This being the CW, however, I expect they want some younger faces around, thus Brandon Routh and Caity Lotz.  

 

Sara's come back from the dead a lot as it is, so I'm good with her doing it again, whether via Lazarus Pit or clone, or "Hey, suckers, that wasn't actually me plummeting from the rooftop."  As much as I'd love to see Caity Lotz take on Batwoman, this spinoff sounds more like "Obscure DC characters Team Up" than another Batman ripoff or show, so alas I don't think we're going there. 

 

And yes, I do think that this gets Ray off Arrow, except for guest spots/crossover episodes - everything else aside, the actor can't be on two sets at once, and it sounds as if they're going to start filming in the summer or fall. 

 

Speaking of those crossovers - that's the main reason I'm not sure this spinoff is going to go in the alternative universe direction. The Flash/Arrow crossovers have all done well in the ratings, and it's a good way to cross-market all three (four) shows. How exactly that's going to work even with all three of them in the same timeline/universe is a good question.  Trying to have crossover episodes with an alternative timeline while also occasionally trying to have a crossover episodes with another network sounds like a writing nightmare waiting to happen.

[Chaser]

I thought about the comparison of a Sara/Ray romance to Olicity and it may work, I'm not sure I would want to see it. Partly because I want Sara/Nyssa and I want them to acknowledge that she is Bi. I think a friendship tho could work really well.

Edited February 27, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Belinea]

Since it seems to be eyed for midseason, they might give it a lighter order to see how people will respond to it before they fully commit to it. But I am really happy for Caity because I thought that she (and Sara) deserved better after that ending. I am not sure what they'll do with her. As a regular it would seem kind of weird to just have her in flashbacks because she can't interact with the rest and the stories might be a little hard to connect to each other and if she is a different character that would also be slightly weird because people know her as Sara Lance. Maybe new information will be available soon.

 Furthermore, I am happy that Ray will not bug me on Arrow anymore. 

[BkWurm1]

I thought about the comparison of a Sara/Ray romance to Olicity and it may work, I'm not sure I would want to see it. Partly because I want Sara/Nyssa and I want them to acknowledge that she is Bi. I think a friendship tho could work really well.

Unless Nyssa becomes a regular, chances are she would be relegated as a past love.  I think that's fair since Sara already once tried to put her in the past.  Even If Nyssa isn't a regular, Sara can still date other women. 

[Sakura12]

I'm really thinking Team 7 works the best for that match of heroes. They all get contacted to work for the Government and go out on missions to find, help or capture meta-humans. 

 

They all bring a unique set of skills. Ray has tech, Captain Cold has some kind of engineering or weapons design background, Sara has forensic and chemistry, Stein is a physicist and Ronnie if he's part of the show is an engineer. 

 

I'd rather Sara date another woman (if Katrina Law isn't on the show). If they are really supporting the LBGT community having an openly bi hero would help with that. They can bring in men and women love interests for her. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by Sakura12

[kismet]

As much as a I can appreciate the comparisons of how a Sara/Ray relationship might work, I feel like TPTB should focus more on making strong character, plot & story and just let any relationships develop organically. On Arrow & Flash, they have proven that they do not necessarily write predestined romance well and on an ensemble cast like this romance would not be necessary to ground the show. I think it would just limit them. I do hope they try to write strong friendships & partnerships though. I mean the relationships of Oliver/Diggle & Barry/Joe have proven to be strong selling points without any need for romance. If you write good characters & stories the rest should just flow naturally.

[Danny Franks]

I thought about the comparison of a Sara/Ray romance to Olicity and it may work, I'm not sure I would want to see it. Partly because I want Sara/Nyssa and I want them to acknowledge that she is Bi. I think a friendship tho could work really well.

 

It wouldn't work for me. Routh is not a good actor, and I've yet to see him achieve chemistry with anything. Seeing poor Caity Lotz try to establish some sort of connection with that robot would be painful.

 

Get Katrina Law as a regular, and then we might be talking.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I find this hilarious.  KC was not happy that Caity Lotz "stole" her role as BC, and as long as Caity is out there on a show in the same universe, there is always always always the threat that KC can be replaced by CL again.  I know that MG just promised Laurel fans that they have nothing to worry about, but...this dude lies all. the. time.  I'm hoping that Laurel goes off to San Francisco to take a corporate lawyer job and Caity can cross over to Arrow occasionally as Black Canary.

 

I do find it really obnoxious that we have to slog through this stupid ass Ray storyline on Arrow as he continues to dominate Felicity's screen time, but I'll be so happy to be rid of him when he starts filming for this other show.

[pootlus]

I could definitely buy a Sara/Ray friendship - I loved the early years of Angel where Angel and Cordelia were best buds and had no romantic interest in each other and could see something similar here.

 

Katrina Law is a must unless she is unavailable/unwilling - much better her on this new show with Caity rather than on prop duty on Arrow.

 

Oh and I'll watch Victor Garber in anything. Love me some Spydaddy.

Edited February 27, 2015 by pootlus

[kdm07]

I'm a little...befuddled by this news. I like Caity Lotz and I'm happy she's getting a regular gig (although I would've preferred if it had been with Marvel since MG et al didn't seem to care enough to do her character justice in Arrow). How exactly is this gonna work? If she comes back as Sara Lance/the Canary the obvious comparison thing with Laurel they tried to circumvent by killing Sara in Arrow will be back in full force. Since I stopped watching Arrow, I would definitely be front and center in watching CL's Canary over KC's but would the EPs really test their audience's preferences like that? Because I have a feeling it wouldn't end the way they'd like.

 

I'm neither here nor there about BR so I guess I'll be watching this purely for Caity.

[Starfish35]

The thing is, if Caity isn't playing Sara, why not just say that up front and get the reaction out of the way? It seems like the only reason to keep who she's playing a secret is that she really is playing Sara, and how she comes back is still a spoiler.

[BkWurm1]

As much as a I can appreciate the comparisons of how a Sara/Ray relationship might work, I feel like TPTB should focus more on making strong character, plot & story and just let any relationships develop organically. On Arrow & Flash, they have proven that they do not necessarily write predestined romance well and on an ensemble cast like this romance would not be necessary to ground the show. I think it would just limit them. I do hope they try to write strong friendships & partnerships though. I mean the relationships of Oliver/Diggle & Barry/Joe have proven to be strong selling points without any need for romance. If you write good characters & stories the rest should just flow naturally.

I'd hope they let relationships jell naturally but even when there is no rush to go the romantic route, the available options usually are obvious so the speculating commences even if the ship has no sails. 

 

I love Garber, I love Caity, I liked Captain Cold and I don't hate Ray, so I'm up for trying out this weird something, whatever it is. 

[Sakura12]

None of the characters on this new show have comic relationships so they have no predetermined love interest story.

[BkWurm1]

The thing is, if Caity isn't playing Sara, why not just say that up front and get the reaction out of the way? It seems like the only reason to keep who she's playing a secret is that she really is playing Sara, and how she comes back is still a spoiler.

I expect that she's going to come back playing a version of Sara but that establishing the who and how and why will either be something we find out in Arrow's last couple episodes or at the beginning of the Atom/Stein Variety Hour. 

 

The one thing I do expect is for Sara not to be a Canary anymore for reasons...perhaps reasonable ones...and along that line, I really don't thing they will let Sara be back alive in the minds of anyone on Arrow but they can't have her just not tell them she's alive so they have to come up with their "reasons"

[kismet]

The thing is, if Caity isn't playing Sara, why not just say that up front and get the reaction out of the way? It seems like the only reason to keep who she's playing a secret is that she really is playing Sara, and how she comes back is still a spoiler.

Either that or her character is the spoiler for the entire series. Whoever she plays is very important and they are gonna dangle it to peak interest.

[Delphi]

So I smashed my phone this morning and this news has made me completely giddy and give zero fucks about my smashed screen and how I'm going to fix it because yay Sara! She has to be Sara I think. The backlash if she wasn't would sink the show before it even got in the water.

As for her resurrection, I posted something of a rant in the bitterness thread about Lazarus pits and crazy Sara and I think they might be doing a variation on that. Which just makes me over the moon.

I don't think it would ruin the turmoil of season three, but also wouldn't care if it did because with the exception of Thea, felicity and the crossover, fuck season three.

[pivot]

The thing is Laurel's popularity has increased and it's not like the ratings have dropped at all so I doubt they brought Sara beck to appease fans. I'm don't think Sara is returning, at least in present.

If Laurel/Katie were more popular, you'd be seeing her character/Katie trend on twitter regularly like Oliver, Diggle and Felicity do. And the ratings were up due to the Arrow cross-over.

I asked Marc on twitter if we could keep Caity and move KC over to the spin-off since she has no chemistry with anyone in the Arrow cast. I am guessing I won't get an answer to that. Even with Ray gone, I may still not be able to start watching Arrow again if KC continues to be part of the A plot. She is a black hole of sucky acting.

[CabotCove]

I realize this is an unpopular opinion, but as a big fan of Sara, I don't want Nyssa anywhere near her. I'm still not over her trying to kill Dinah in "Heir to the Demon" and preferring Sara to be dead over her not coming back to the League. It's really soured me on the character. I would be OK with her recurring, just this not being an epic romance, because it reminds me of stuff like Delena or Rumbelle or whatever - couples when one person always forgives the other no matter what bad stuff they've done

On the same boat on this whole Nyssa/Sara thing, I really dislike how its toxicity is glossed over and treated as some epic romance. I would rather see Sara with Sin, yeah yeah they are sister/sibling zoned but hey so are Barry/Iris. In a couple of years it could work. Not to mention I really don't see that much chemistry between Nyssa/Sara, Sin/Sara is a different story for me.

And it won't even necessarily get Routh off Arrow, because if the idea is that this is an alternate universe created by The Flash, where Sara didn't die, that means the Palmer in Arrow is not the same as the Palmer in this proposed show.

No way it has to be Routh, he is cast in the show. But you could be onto something there, like what if its Sara from earth 2 or just from another earth. That could be a twist. Edited February 27, 2015 by Conell

[SonofaBiscuit]

I would hate to do a Flash time travel thingy that changed the present so that Sara was still alive, because would this mean that all of the stuff that we just watched for the last 2.5 seasons never happened?  But, I would love it if the time travel changed things so that Laurel was never born and never existed in this universe.  Goodbye!

[CabotCove]

Maybe an alt!reality Sara Lance is sent through a rift in time-space to warn Team Flash about the crisis. And then she can't go back to her reality for ~reasons.

Ditto. Yeah I was thinking along those lines too.

Actually, I think a Ray/Sara romance could work. It would be more like Olicity but in reverse. Ray and Felicity are too much alike but not in a cute way, but in a boring way.

Different strokes, I for one I'm over the extreme "opposite attract" love stories. Why does every love story need to be like that. Not to mention it would be like "pair the spares" and "get each others leftovers" with those two, but of course if its Sara from another earth that would definately change things. In any case I don't think Arrow's Sara and Ray are that much different, in some ways they are alike unless she comes back a different person.

I'm really thinking Team 7 works the best for that match of heroes. They all get contacted to work for the Government and go out on missions to find, help or capture meta-humans.

They all bring a unique set of skills. Ray has tech, Captain Cold has some kind of engineering or weapons design background, Sara has forensic and chemistry, Stein is a physicist and Ronnie if he's part of the show is an engineer.

I dig this idea.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Conell

[Sakura12]

I really don't think if Sara is our Sara would really fall for a guy like Ray. He's too bland for her. Sara laughed in Ra's al Ghul's face she needs someone with more fire in them. I could see her being friends with him though. Although CL and BR already worked together in that astronaut movie they have coming out maybe they can have manage to have some chemistry. I just rather they don't set anything up and let things progress naturally. 

 

Of course I'd really like to see how Sara reacts to Stein or him to her. Especially if she's risen from the dead or from an alternate reality. It would also be interesting to see the woman being the tortured soul one in the group. 

[FurryFury]

Yes, Laurel is slightly more liked than before but she is still not the Black Canary

 

You probably mean "slightly less hated".

 

I'm not so sure about Sara, though. She was probably my favourite character (tied with Moira, perhaps)

 

Yay! So I wasn't the only one who loved these two above all others!

 

but...if this spin-off show takes place after Arrow then what was the point of killing her...again? I'll be happy to see her again, off course, but it's just going to make a pretty terrible season of Arrow look even worse if they just bring her back to life anyway.

 

I haven't seen this season. When Sara handed Laurel her jacked back in s2 finale and happily went back to the League, I instantly knew the writers don't give a damn about her. It was her metaphorical death as a character followed by her real death in 3x01 which I, at least, didn't have to suffer through. So I don't care if it invalidates this season. As far as I've heard, it's so bad that retconning wouldn't harm it, anyway.

Edited February 27, 2015 by FurryFury

[Trini]

I hope Caity isn't going to be playing Canary again. I think it'll be too weird/complicated to have two versions, on (at least) two different shows, on the same network, along with all the crossover possibilities with all the DC shows.

[Sakura12]

How is it going to be less confusing when they do crossovers and a woman that looks exactly like Sara shows up? 

Edited February 27, 2015 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

Maybe Ray shrinks into an alternate universe where these characters had other lives? Sara could still be the Canary or could have something else happen to move her in another direction. Stein is in charge of STAR Labs. Snart is a cop. Or something. This would also allow Cold and Stein to still be their regular characters on Flash.

[FurryFury]

I think it could be too confusing for regular audiences, too. Although I wouldn't exactly mind. I'd take any version of Sara, past, present, alternate - I just wish to see my favorite character again, preferably apart from Arrow's cast except Quentin.

[Velocity23]

I have a feeling Steven McQueen might show up on this spin-off. He was campaigning for Nightwing so fucking hard.

[Chaser]

I have a feeling Steven McQueen might show up on this spin-off. He was campaigning for Nightwing so fucking hard.

Please No. Just No. lol

[tessaray]

I'm kind of a sucker for the 'character from an alternate reality stuck in ours with no way back' storyline, so that would work for me.  It would be their Sara, but not.  And it could make for some good crossover plots that wouldn't invalidate the impact of Sara's death. 

 

The thing I'm on the fence about is Arrow.  I have the last 3 episodes on my dvr, which until today I was leaning towards just deleting and taking off permanently.  I suppose I'll just postpone it now.  

[Velocity23]

Well he left TVD so he is free. And he was always tweeting with Arrow crew.

[Chaser]

Well he left TVD so he is free. And he was always tweeting with Arrow crew.

He is a CW regular so it could totally happen. It just shouldn't.

 

I don't hate the guy or anything. I just don't think he can act. I waited for him to get killed off of TVD for four seasons.