S05.E10: Them

[ghoulina]

Beth was stronger than Glenn, at that point, and had a weapon. It still bugs me, but I don't hate Maggie.

 

Yes, but Beth wasn't on the escape bus, and she thought Glenn was. So she thought he'd have the protection of a vehicle, plus the others on the bus. Once she found the bus and he wasn't on in, in any way, shape, or form - she figured he must have escaped. At that point, I do believe he had just as much of a chance of being alive as Beth did, BUT.....with Beth Maggie had no idea where to go. She had no "last seen here" with Beth. It would be like searching for a needle in a haystack. At least with Glenn she knew, or thought she knew, the general direction he was in. 

 

I do agree there are holes here, a lot that people can pick apart. It reminds me a bit of Carol killing Karvid last season. If you look at it from the character's point of view, a lot of it doesn't make sense. So I either try my best to fanwank my way around it, or just attribute it all to poor writing - writing that was more interested in serving a plot point than the true character. 

[Jordan27]

think the core group is still reeling from recent events.  Beside losing Beth and Tyreese, Terminus and even the prison weren't that long ago.  Maybe 2-3 months?

 

I thought they said it was 17 days since Tyreese died on TD.

[RedheadZombie]

 Tyrese would have kept that baby covered.

 

Absolutely!  You know nobody is missing Tyreese as badly as Judith.  Her gentle giant held her securely against his nicely padded body, smiling and singing to her.  Now she's being juggled by little scowling men, getting bruised by their protruding ribs, wondering who the hell this Grizzly Adams guy and sidekick Deputy Droop-a-Long are.

 

The burnt collar got me to, probably in part because I am Episcopalian. Seeing a man as shaky as Gabriel just throw the collar away felt like a hopeless moment.

 

I was completely unmoved, and I continue to be surprised at how little FPP touches me.  I'm moved by almost everything on this show.  Abraham falling to his needs in the road brought me to tears.  I've cried for every major character's death.  I at least tear up when one of the gang becomes emotional.  Gabriel - nothing.  It's been that way since the beginning.   It's not that I can't handle a weak character.   I adored Tyreese, and Eugene doesn't bother me.  Maybe it's the combo of crouching on that rock shrieking like a little girl, what he did to his parishioners, and for some reason - how high pitched the actor's voice is.  Tormented characters tend to be my thing, but nope. 

 

Also, the fact that this man's faith was unwavering, even after betraying his entire flock, yet now that's he's personally suffered for a few weeks - collar's ripped off and burned - is not helping me get over my dislike of the character.

[Helena Dax]

I did too.

 

Peoples' feet were creating grooves in the mud/ground when the walkers pushed them back, yet there were no grooves the next morning.  Nor was there any damage to the door.  Plus, there were no dead walkers anywhere near the door, they were all several feet away trapped by fallen trees and branches.  If they saved the barn from a walker attack, they would have had to kill some walkers near the door.  Unless they moved them during the middle of the night, for no particular good reason, the bodies would still be there the next day.

 

Also, if walkers are attracted to loud noises and light, I don't see why they would have headed straight for the barn during the thunderstorm unless the barn happened to be exactly between the walkers and the thunder and lightning.

 

I didn't get that either. In the middle of that storm, there was no reason for the zombies to be walking towards that barn as if they were smelling or hearing the people inside.

 

Also, it seems they're travelling without a map and that their only plan is "going to DC". I mean, if I had to make that travel I'd have a list with all the possible shelters and sources of water from Virginia (?) to DC. It's a miracle they're all still alive.

 

Daryl's hair is starting to be the most disgusting thing in the ZA, zombies included.

[bobbyjoe]

I can't imagine what it would be like to suffer the kind of hunger and thirst these characters must endure. Heck, my sweetie and I were told that it would be a three-hour wait for a table last night at our favorite restaurant and we were like, "Forget that! We'll just get some Chik-fil-A.

 

If my suspicions are true, I'm guessing new character Aaron wouldn't be likely to join anyone at Chik-fil-A.

[Lila82]

Is the show being shot in Ferngully this season? The camera work is outstanding, all lush greens and dark shadows and deep contrasts. They've been playing around with framing their shots too. Whoever's engineered the change, keep it up.

My favorite part was Rosita playing in the rain with Tara. I like their friendship, and I like it even more that she's stopped following Abraham around.

Which begs the question: are Abraham and Katrina Van Tassel Crane buying hair dye in bulk? That color is something, but it's not of nature.

 

ETA: 

 

Rick's speech about "the walking dead" - Racetrack said it better on "Battlestar Galactica".  

 

I'm glad I waited until this afternoon to watch, because after the ending of "Downton Abbey," I wouldn't have made it through the dog-eating scene.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Lila82

[Pete Martell]

I finally got to watch the episode this morning. 

 

How much of that rain scene was designed for the horny viewer at home? Not sure who would win in a wet T-shirt contest between Rick, Rosita and Tara.

 

I had mixed feelings about the episode. I felt like it was one of those that had such low lows that they felt the need to insert high highs (for this show). 
 

One of my problems with the highs is they just felt very Hollywood for me. Does that mean I disliked them? No, not entirely. They just nagged a little. Scenes like the rush against the barn door - I like the idea, I liked the scene, and yes, I'm glad for solidarity and a reminder that the group stands together and must be together to truly survive, but the way it was filmed just seemed so unlike TWD. The same with the scene walking out of the barn (although the impaled walkers amused me). 

 

And I felt like some scenes, several scenes, ran on too long, and were full of telling-not-showing. I realize when they don't tell too much, some fans say it's confusing, but I didn't need scenes like Gabriel saying, "I'm sorry I stopped believing!" I wish he'd just looked up at the rain and smiled. And the music box just felt so heavy-handed, as did Aaron's CAN-THEY-TRUST-HIM arrival. The thing is, if you keep telling us maybe we can't trust this person, then we will never trust a new character. They will always seem shady. Their first scenes also seem increasingly stilted and artificial, like that car commercial that used to run (does it still run?) where the people are confused at the man who survives the ZA with a cool car, or whatever.

 

I also felt like there were a few too many padded scenes of talking about being sick and weak and wandering along the roadside. It felt very self-serious and borderline parody. 

 

The other small thing that annoyed me was when Michonne grabbed Sasha in the middle of Sasha going HAM on a walker. I understand why Michonne did it - Sasha was out of control and had a death wish - but the way it was framed, there was a walker right next to Sasha. I had no idea how Sasha did not get bit. 

 

So, what did I like?

 

- Michonne in a central role, taking Sasha in hand when everyone else (aside from Maggie, who was giving more of the soft, quiet approach of mutual loss) was letting her just drown in herself. It was a new side of Michonne, and it was a reinforcement of how vital she is to the group. She has no time for these crises, and I can respect that.

 

- The scene with Maggie and the car trunk. It went on a little, but I just liked how it represented Maggie's paralysis over her choices and over the world they lived in. Then when she wanted to kill the walker inside, do the right thing, it was too late. Overall I thought this was an episode Maggie needed, and one of her strongest in a long time. She wasn't just a part of a group, with her thoughts and feelings left for us to grasp at or make up for ourselves. We finally got to hear her voice on her terms. And frankly, as someone who has always liked the character even when it was cool to call her a selfish bitch who only cared about dick, I don't give a crap if this was some sort of afterthought writing to make up for lack of mention in 4B and 5A. I'm still glad she said it and tried to express why she hadn't mentioned Beth. If that's too late for some people, that's up to them. I still like the character, and I always will. 

 

- I liked that Carol, Glenn, Daryl and Michonne all represented different types of hope, while not being Disney-type voices of the right path. I also liked that Rick's more hardened view was challenged, but not in the old ways of seasons 2 or 3 where it was one person shouting against another person and all kinds of conflict for the sake of conflict. These people are friends, and we saw that here.

 

- As much as I dreaded Daryl Woobie Hour, the limited scenes we got worked for me, especially the harrowing scene of him burning himself with a cigarette, so he could feel something (anything), and as a reminder that he is still, deep down, an abused child. I was shocked that scene got through. His conversation with Carol was moving, and mature, and very them at their best; it was nice to see Carol there for him. 

 

- Sasha feeling alienated and needing to be alienated, always at a distance. Yet she never just seemed sullen or unpleasant, as can happen with poor writing choices. I hadn't expected them to show as much of her struggle as they did. The scene of her killing the dogs was also a real jolt, and very interesting to me in terms of her role in the group - it was a reminder that she's always been a little separate from them, and they need this. 

 

- Even with the music box cheese, I liked the Maggie/Sasha scenes. Lauren Cohan talked to Hardwick about how much she appreciates this relationship, and I can see why. I'm glad to see it revisited. And as much as the rain scene felt a little too long for me, the shot of her and Sasha being the only two to not react did get to me.

[Samx]

My own head-canon for Kidnapped Walker was she was kidnapped by some rapey guys and stashed in the trunk after all hell broke loose.  The rapey guys ended up in that traffic jam and the walkers were upon them, leaving poor Kidnapped Walker to die an agonizing death by dehydration, leaving her a walker in the trunk, poor thing.  She had the WORST luck.

 

My head-canon is that she was kidnapped just prior to the ZA (possibly by a serial killer type) who got forgotten when shit hit the fan, meaning she has been in that trunk since day zero. Not even sure a walker would survive THAT long without "eating" (don't know if these walkers technically can "starve") but she looked more like a decomposed body than anything else. It served as a reminder to me that there were horrific people out there before the ZA and there will continue to be horrific people during/after the ZA. 

 

I think we can all agree that Maggie's reaction to Beth was due to (bad) writing/editing but barring that, I guess I can live with the idea that Maggie assumed Beth was dead meat because Maggie thought of her as ye olde Beth of the slashed wrists, too weak to really survive. Nothing we had seen of Beth at the prison had really dispelled that notion because they never showed her being "strong" (unless you count that time she totally didn't care her "boyfriend" had died). Anyway, the introduction of this Aaron fellow must mean they all need to get over that shit FAST.

[RedheadZombie]

So then Aaron shows up, all sparkly clean, full face, hydrated rich beyond the telling of it in that mean world why would such a man even approach our feral band of heroes? Know what else I wonder? Why dont more people in our group bicker? You always have at least one obnoxious jerk in any group, we used to have Merl but all we really have is Abe's hair. Anyway, a little tour of Lost-land via zombieapocalypse Im all for it bring it on please

 

He's coming off as a Gareth 2.0.  Same clean, well-fed appearance.  Same affable personality.  Same offer of help and kinship.  Same fixation on Rick. The problem is, I would prefer Gareth.

 

The tied-up walker in the trunk was just horrific. I want so badly to believe that she was already a walker when she was put in there and whoever put her in there was a loved one who couldn't accept yet that once someone turns walker, there's no coming back.

 

I assumed she was dead when they put her in the trunk.  She had blood along her neck/shirt, and she reminded me of the irritating aunt in Vacation, who was placed on the roof of the car after her untimely death.  Maybe her companions were unable or unwilling to kill her walker form, so they restrained her in the trunk.

[Boofish]

I really want this show to explore the Amish community who are probably not even aware the world has come to an end unless they were on rumspringa or TLC

[catrox14]

I really want this show to explore the Amish community who are probably not even aware the world has come to an end unless they were on rumspringa or TLC

 

Well, great. Now I just want to see Banshee: ZombieAmish vs NLH.  Thanks for making me want something I didn't know I needed until now.

[Gentian root]

I don't see how Aaron could be Terminus- or Morgan-related after the 500-mile jump from GA to VA.  But I think the show makes sense sometimes, so who am I to say?

[RedheadZombie]

I had Lost vibes when they started off the episode, zoomed in on Maggie's eyes. All they needed after Aaron's appearance, was this, only with The Walking Dead written there instead:

 

 

But before the credits rolled, these words would be spoken:  "Only, the thing is, we're going to have to take the boy. "

 

What are they feeding Judith? I can see adults going several days with no food but not a one year old baby.

 

I think Rick and Carl are probably rationing their portions and saving it for Judith.  Before there was baby food, mothers pre-chewed normal food, softening it and adding digestive enzymes from their saliva, then fed it to their babies.  Alicia Silverstone got a lot of attention a few years ago for feeding her baby this way.

[ghoulina]

I think Rick and Carl are probably rationing their portions and saving it for Judith.  Before there was baby food, mothers pre-chewed normal food, softening it and adding digestive enzymes from their saliva, then fed it to their babies.  Alicia Silverstone got a lot of attention a few years ago for feeding her baby this way.

 

And how old is Judith now? She's got to be around 9 months, right? At 9 months she would be able to chew food. I started baby led weaning with my kids around 7-9 months. You just give them big chunks of soft food, like an apple or a zucchini, a banana, some bread....let them gnaw on it and eventually learn how to chew first, then swallow. It would be nice if they had some milk for Judith, but I bet they ran out of formula awhile ago and I haven't seen any goats around. I think she could likely get by with the method you're talking about, or mine. She doesn't need a totally liquid diet at this point. 

[yourmomiseasy]

What I want to know is who skinned, gutted, and cleaned the dogs before they put them on the grill?

 

Obviously Daryl.  

[Ohwell]

Woof.

[Sentient Meat]

I don't get why people complain that certain characters are boring or dead weight, so they hope that they get killed off soon.  From a narrative standpoint, that's why they separated everyone into little groups over the past seasons... so each episode could focus on a particular character and they could fill in some of their back stories.  Now that they are in a large group, it is impossible to devote more than a few minutes to each character per episode so of course some of them are going to get short shrift.  In most cases, I don't think certain characters have become boring so much as they are just being put to the side for future use.

 

I'm guessing that Aaron is so obviously wrong that he will probably end up being a good character... if not they really badly telegraphed this one. 

 

Either that or the combination of his clean appearance with the surreal fallen tree zombie graveyard thing made me think that all the characters died after their barn door stand and he's an angel that's appearing in the last survivor's dying thoughts.

[NorthstarATL]

I also wonder why they walk in the heat of midday, instead of walking in the early morning and in the early evening, taking shelter in the shade when it's the hottest.  It would conserve their energy, and they'd sweat less, so it'd conserve their water.

 

Yes, she said Woodbury was sketchy.  But she had real, factual reasons why it was dangerous, and she refused to open her mouth and tell them to Andrea.  She was basically saying "if you don't believe me on nothing but my say-so you can just stay here in danger".  She was supposed to be Andrea's friend, but she couldn't expend the effort to speak two or three sentences about the things she'd seen at Woodbury?   I never took that as 'reticent to speak', like she was shy or something.  I took that as being closed off in her grief and her anger. 

 

I think she's been the exact opposite of consistent.  She started out as practically mute, as angry with herself and the world, as shutting people out and refusing to let anyone in.  She'd lost everything, and she wasn't going to let herself get hurt anymore.  And then she had the breakthrough, after the prison fell, when she saw the walker that looked like her.  She smiled, she bonded with Rick and Carl.  That smile on her face when she came up to the house where Rick and Carl were hiding out and she realized she'd found them?  That moment when she changed her mind and decided to follow their tracks instead of going off on her own again as she'd originally planned (deliberately ignoring their tracks)?  Incredibly moving TV, at least to me.

 

Can you imagine the Michonne we have now seeing Aaron out in the woods killing innocent people and just telling Rick and the group "He's dangerous" and refusing to explain why? I certainly can't.  Because she's bonded with these people and she cares about them.  She was happy to leave Andrea with the Governor because Andrea wouldn't take her five or six words as gospel without any kind of explanation.  Sasha is wracked with grief, and blind to the fact that she's endagering the others.  They should absolutely point that out to her.  But god, why does she have to trash her brother to do it?  

 

Why even say "Tyrese was pissed, and he was stupid, and now you are?"  Why not just say "You're pissed, and it's making you do stupid things"?  Why bring her just-dead brother into it at all?  I figure there was about a 100% chance that wasn't going to go down well with Sasha. It sure wouldn't have gone down well with me.  All I'd have heard was "Your dead brother was stupid," and the real message, the risks she was taking/causing, would have been lost in the outrage.  I'm really surprised that nobody has a problem with that.  Would everyone feel the same if she'd been going on about how stupid Beth was as a means of trying to lecture someone?  Is it because everyone was ready for Tyrese to die anyway?

 

I love Michonne, and her character arc and the way she's grown is a major part of why.  But I know she was pretty wrapped up in grief and willing to push the world away when we first saw her.

I think having a character change in a way that the viewer can understand IS consistency. We'll just have to disagree about Michonne and Woodbury. I think Michonne had good reason to be suspicious, and had good reason to assume Andrea would trust her judgment and instincts. (Does anyone truly believe it was Andrea keeping them alive for those many months?) Her statement to Sasha was a callback to her saying the same thing to Tyreese back when, coupled with an expediency that is in character for Michonne. She cuts to the heart of the matter, using "stupid" and invoking Tyreese because that will have impact. She doesn't waste words, which I think was one of the keys to her solo survival, and not necessarily a reflection of anger that you see it as.

[candall]

So am I the only one who actually thinks Rick'd beard looks healthier when it's all grown out like this?

Mm-hmm.

[kj4ever]

Norman was on the Tonight Show a couple of nights ago and he and his Carol Brady hair did not look much better than when he's on the show....

 

The main reason why I didn't want Beth to die was I wanted Daryl to have a win.  He couldn't save Sofia.  Now he didn't save Beth, who he probably had the most emotional bond.  Not saying he was in wuv with her or any of that crap, but she was probably the first person he really told his story to, and probably the first person to ever see him just break down.  I know it had to be a hard blow for him, but I hope we don't have the whole rest of the season with him trying to  push people away.

[natyxg]

This sort of comment puzzles and amuses me!  Folks who keep watching a show they're clearly done with, yet keep watching it.   I call them "The Walking Fans."  Say, brother, wouldn't it be better to let it go?

 

I keep watching because I like zombie stuff and I did like this show at some point, so I keep hoping that it will be better again. But this episode was my peak moment, I actually got so bored that I got the computer out and started surfing.  Also, this is like the only zombie show right now that I know of, unless you count Helix, so I keep hoping I can like it again, but no.

 

Also, there is something called hate watch which I'm sure some other people do as well, like with all shows. Though this is not the case for me. It bores me too much to incite hate. Damn the last episode I really liked was like S5E01.

[BrokenRemote]

My own head-canon for Kidnapped Walker was she was kidnapped by some rapey guys and stashed in the trunk after all hell broke loose.  The rapey guys ended up in that traffic jam and the walkers were upon them, leaving poor Kidnapped Walker to die an agonizing death by dehydration, leaving her a walker in the trunk, poor thing.  She had the WORST luck.

 

So now Maggie assumes that her weak, still ill husband is alive after the prison, but she assumes that her healthy young sister is dead until informed by Daryl that she's alive?  Why?  I mean, there's ret-conning and then there's ret-conning.  And why, after finding out she was last seen alive, would she not spend as much time and energy looking for her last blood relative as she did her husband?  Was the trip to Washington THAT necessary for her?  I mean, she told everyone who tried to tell her that her chances of finding Glenn where nil that she had faith that she would find him.  Why didn't she have that same faith in regards to finding Beth?

 

I'm glad they had Michonne rag on Sasha about her anger - it shows that Michonne is human and can err just like the rest of the group.  She's not perfect.

 

If I were Maggie, I'd pretty much assume Beth had done something hare-brained right off the bat and gotten herself dead.  She did tend to that sometimes (ok, half-joking.  Only half...)

 

Sorry if anyone mentioned these:

What are they feeding Judith? I can see adults going several days with no food but not a one year old baby.

Doesn't anyone have a razor they can loan Rick? The other guys are somewhat clean shaven. Rick is starting to look like Grizzley Adam's twin brother.

When Sasha went crazy stabbing zombies she knicked the red haired guys arm. Wouldn't he get infected by the zombie blood?

 

I like to imagine Judith sucking on the end of a leg bone, looking like Pebbles Flintsone.

 

I thought they said it was 17 days since Tyreese died on TD.

 

It was 17 days from when Beth died to when Tyrese died.

 

I think having a character change in a way that the viewer can understand IS consistency. We'll just have to disagree about Michonne and Woodbury. I think Michonne had good reason to be suspicious, and had good reason to assume Andrea would trust her judgment and instincts. (Does anyone truly believe it was Andrea keeping them alive for those many months?) Her statement to Sasha was a callback to her saying the same thing to Tyreese back when, coupled with an expediency that is in character for Michonne. She cuts to the heart of the matter, using "stupid" and invoking Tyreese because that will have impact. She doesn't waste words, which I think was one of the keys to her solo survival, and not necessarily a reflection of anger that you see it as.

 

Just to be clear, I don't think Michonne said those things in anger, not at all. I think in the beginning when we first saw her, she was angry.  I honestly think she said what she said to Sasha out of a) a completely legitimate desire to get her to see the dangerous path she was on but also b) out of a distinct lack of compassion for Sasha.  I'm not sure where that lack of compassion came from because she has it for the others.  It seemed out of character, if for no other reason than because Michonne usually does the smart thing, and that just came off as the opposite of the smart thing because it was bound to make Sasha more angry and make her more stupid and thus even more prone to deadly mistakes (see: the bridge).  But like someone said above, Michonne is human, and I count it as a human reaction to hunger and fatigue and endless hellish, hot, stinky, corprse-ridden days.  

 

My point in bringing it up at all was more to try to understand the viewer reaction of "Go, Michonne, you tell that sad, grieving Sasha how it is!  You go girl, tell her how stupid her brother that died yesterday was!  Don't take any of her 'waah, my brother is dead' bullshit!".  That's the part I'm not getting.  The audience seems to have compassion for Maggie, and even for Daryl to some extent, but the same audience seems to be champing at the bit for an even-more-recently bereaved Sasha (who also lost her lover/boyfriend/Bob/whatever not so long ago) to 'get what's coming to her'.  That's where I lose the thread of the whole thing. 

 

As you said, we'll have to agree to disagree on Michonne's character arc.  I think it's pretty cool that they've given us a character with so much actual depth that there are multiple ways to even read her!  

Edited February 17, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[kikismom]

I'll fanwank that because dogs have a superior sense of smell, they can tell the difference between zombies and humans - and know to stay away from the zombies.

We saw dogs munching on zombies in the season 1, then again by the side of the road as Rick drives back to the prison after dumping Carol.

 

It never occurred to me that Maggie was dreaming. However, when there was an abrupt shift from frantic door-defending to everyone sprawled out asleep I wondered what the hell happened.

 

I thought it was an homage to the beginning of The Wizard Of Oz, where Dorothy rides terrified in the farmhouse up the tornado seeing crazy stuff then quick cuts to Dorothy as she wakes the next morning to peaceful calm and singing birds.

Real life :  hunters "harvested" >242,000 deer in Virginia last year.  Either CDB would be surfing whitetail waves by now or the walkers should look more fat & happy.

 

Not to labor a point made already, but there won't be any deer with millions of people either alive and hungry or turned into walkers that also attack and feed on anything with a pulse. Deer can't reproduce any young in the ZA conditions, and they can't run night and day for over 500 days.  CDB aren't the only ones looking for a kill.

BTW, I know you're kidding but walkers never have to worry about gaining weight---they seem to be following the Atkins plan.

I do agree there are holes here, a lot that people can pick apart. It reminds me a bit of Carol killing Karvid last season. If you look at it from the character's point of view, a lot of it doesn't make sense. So I either try my best to fanwank my way around it, or just attribute it all to poor writing - writing that was more interested in serving a plot point than the true character. 

So right; I just figured that the showrunners needed everyone to get to Terminus. So Maggie couldn't say, now that I found Glenn we can look for Beth or well since I'm writing a note for Glenn I'll write Beth's name on it also because that would screw up this rush to the final episode "A"

Everytime something happens way out of character, or is just plain illogical....start the countdown because it is shoehorned in to set a foundation for Future Set-Piece.

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

What seems to get forgotten re: Michonne/Sasha is that it isn't just Michonne having said anger makes you stupid (to Tyreese). That isn't where that scene ended.

Tyreese asked why she still stayed angry at the Governor then. Michonne claimed she wasn't angry at Brillip (snort!), that she'd kill him but she wasn't angry. So Tyreese asked why can't you let it go then??  And Michonne had no answer for that.

[walnutqueen]

Here's the thing, the very human thing.  We sometimes let people we "love" fall by the wayside - it happens, and don't deny it doesn't.  Our reactions to losing said people are even more acute than if we'd been close and "there for them" up until the very end.  Loss is experienced in many ways, and if you are lucky (or unfortunate) enough to live long, you experience loss and a lot of revisionist regret, in times of despair & weakness.  Ain't nobody got time for dat in the ZA, at least not for long.  Contrary to popular belief, life DOES go on.

[madam magpie]

So Maggie screaming and crying and throwing herself on the ground when she saw Beth's body was subtle?

They overcorrected in that episode and with Maggie's explanations here to the point that this became melodrama and none of it makes any sense at all.

I just don't see it. I see a collapse. It sounds to me like whatever Maggie does is wrong: She doesn't freak out, she's wrong. She does freak out, she's wrong. People cope and grieve a hundred different ways. Maggie's way might not be yours or mine or whoever's, but it's not unrealistic. Also, I always find it interesting when fans think a show has changed course midstream because people complain on the internet. We don't have that much power, especially with a show that's killing the ratings. The show runners may take criticism at the end of a season and make adjustments for the next year, but they aren't typically writing the show in real time. Maggie's detachment and breakdown were part of a story plan. The writers didn't "correct" at all. So when the writers have Maggie tell us what she's thinking finally, there's no reason I can see not to take her at her word. Edited February 17, 2015 by madam magpie

[BrokenRemote]

kikismon, you said "Deer can't reproduce any young in the ZA conditions, and they can't run night and day for over 500 days."  As someone who's completely ignorant of how that sort of thing works, why can't they reproduce?  Because they're running?

[Maverick]

If I didn't know this episode was written,--if not already in the can--by the time it aired, I would swear they were taking some kind of swipe at Z Nation's "Znado" episode.

[catrox14]

I just don't see it. I see a collapse. It sounds to me like whatever Maggie does is wrong: She doesn't freak out, she's wrong. She does freak out, she's wrong. People cope and grieve a hundred different ways. Maggie's way might not be yours or mine or whoever's, but it's not unrealistic. Also, I always find it interesting when fans think a show has changed course midstream because people complain on the internet. We don't have that much power, especially with a show that's killing the ratings. The show runners may take criticism at the end of a season and make adjustments for the next year, but they aren't typically writing the show in real time. Maggie's detachment and breakdown were part of a story plan. The writers didn't "correct" at all. So when the writers have Maggie tell us what she's thinking finally, there's no reason I can see not to take her at her word.

 

Certainly it's all of our prerogatives to interpret things.  I just didn't buy the idea that she's been doing all this detached stuff.

 

If they were they didn't sell it properly to make me believe it. I mean at this point I would have taken a thought bubble over her head reading "Beth"....

 

I think we should just agree to disagree on this point :)

[kikismom]

kikismon, you said "Deer can't reproduce any young in the ZA conditions, and they can't run night and day for over 500 days."  As someone who's completely ignorant of how that sort of thing works, why can't they reproduce?  Because they're running?

Same reason Lori couldn't run fast when carrying a baby, and why Judith is just lucky Tyreese scooped her up. Pregnant does will miscarry under stress, and does have to leave the fawns so the doe can get food and water. A baby deer will make cry noises whenever it wants, but her daddy doesn't hang around with a dozen friends packin' heat. (Rabbits can eat their newborns under stress, or even reabsorb the embryos.) They are being pursued anywhere they go, the water is polluted with corpses or drought condtions that cause die-offs even now, and they are ruminants...they rip plant material and ingest it, but they need time to rest and slowly digest it. (When there was famine in N Korea, people tried to eat grass, but humans don't have multiple stomachs to do that like ruminants/hoofstock.)

Edited February 17, 2015 by kikismom

[XtremeOne1]

So Maggie screaming and crying and throwing herself on the ground when she saw Beth's body was subtle?

 

They overcorrected in that episode and with Maggie's explanations here to the point that this became melodrama and none of it makes any sense at all.

Screaming and crying when you think you;re about to see your little sister you thought was dead being carried out with half her heard off....No not subtle, but a pretty normal reaction. What did you expect a half shrug, "Well there we go..."

 

I'm with the poster who said Maggie can do not right. She grieves, she's wrong. She cries, she's wrong. If she left Glenn behind to chase after Beth, it would be, "And she spent all season trying to find Glenn and think she's like, peace...".....It's funny, most people I know have Maggie in their top 3 and where bothered when the writers didn't give her grief time...But now that she's getting it, I'm happy.

Edited February 17, 2015 by XtremeOne1

[walnutqueen]

kikismon, you said "Deer can't reproduce any young in the ZA conditions, and they can't run night and day for over 500 days."  As someone who's completely ignorant of how that sort of thing works, why can't they reproduce?  Because they're running?

 

Deer run & jump - constantly.  Their fawns are hidden for most of the day, every day.  They are prey animals and quite used to being hunted by everything, so I fail to see how this would inhibit reproduction.  The sex drive is almost as strong as the survival drive in young healthy beings.  :-)

 

I saw a fascinating show (on PBS, of course) about how replicating the actions of predators on prey herds actually improved the environment and subsequent grazing lands ... wish I wasn't about to nap, because I'd find the reference ...

 

My point is - some deer WILL survive.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I really want this show to explore the Amish community who are probably not even aware the world has come to an end unless they were on rumspringa or TLC

There's a YA book series where this basically happens, except it's some kind of "rabid" human-vampire hybrid with a little more smarts than zombies. The conflict is that the literally walled off Amish community believes they are being spared by God for being moral...but they don't want to let in innocent uninfected people. Drama among the elder counsel, forbidden chaste teen romance, etc.

ETA: thank Google for understanding "Amish vampire YA". http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13018514-the-hallowed-ones

Edited February 17, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[Dodginblue]

I liked this episode, mostly because I was fairly confident that none of the group would be killed off.   A couple of things puzzled me, though.  Like when they came across the cars, why didn't they see if they were still running or not?  Maybe it's because one vehicle alone wouldn't hold all of them, although I think there were two cars there.  I guess they just assume they were out of gas, which they probably were.  

 

Another thing, I thought the barn door scene was Maggie's dream at first, too.  I understand it supposedly really did happen. To which I ask, why wasn't the door secured?  Not just against walkers but also other humans.  It looks like it was just loose and how terribly convenient that Daryl was wandering by and noticed walkers heading their way.

 

I thought that Abraham knocking the water out of Eugene's hand was a sign that Abraham still cares about him; that he knew why Eugene did it, one of the few ways the character can try and show courage, but Abraham wasn't going to let him risk it.  

 

And I'm with Michonne on her reaction to Sasha.  I get grief, the anger, the hostility, but if acting out puts everyone else at risk, it's time to grow up.    I liked the way they improvised knocking the walkers off the side of the bridge.  Clever and it was working until Sasha screwed it up.   Although she did redeem herself in handling the snarling dogs so quickly.  

[Anela]

I just don't see it. I see a collapse. It sounds to me like whatever Maggie does is wrong: She doesn't freak out, she's wrong. She does freak out, she's wrong. People cope and grieve a hundred different ways. Maggie's way might not be yours or mine or whoever's, but it's not unrealistic. Also, I always find it interesting when fans think a show has changed course midstream because people complain on the internet. We don't have that much power, especially with a show that's killing the ratings. The show runners may take criticism at the end of a season and make adjustments for the next year, but they aren't typically writing the show in real time. Maggie's detachment and breakdown were part of a story plan. The writers didn't "correct" at all. So when the writers have Maggie tell us what she's thinking finally, there's no reason I can see not to take her at her word.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree, too. :) It's fictional, but it still bugs me, and I blame the writers.

[catrox14]

 

Screaming and crying when you think you;re about to see your little sister you thought was dead being carried out with half her heard off....No not subtle, but a pretty normal reaction. What did you expect a half shrug, "Well there we go..."

 

Why does that have to be the only other possible reaction? Is there not a reaction in between that would have been better than either your extreme of shoulder shrugging (which I never implied nor said) and the histrionics that didn't match Maggie's demeanor for weeks?  

[BrokenRemote]

Same reason Lori couldn't run fast when carrying a baby, and why Judith is just lucky Tyreese scooped her up. Pregnant does will miscarry under stress, and does have to leave the fawns so the doe can get food and water. A baby deer will make cry noises whenever it wants, but her daddy doesn't hang around with a dozen friends packin' heat. (Rabbits can eat their newborns under stress, or even reabsorb the embryos.) They are being pursued anywhere they go, the water is polluted with corpses or drought condtions that cause die-offs even now, and they are ruminants...they rip plant material and ingest it, but they need time to rest and slowly digest it. (When there was famine in N Korea, people tried to eat grass, but humans don't have multiple stomachs to do that like ruminants/hoofstock.)

 

Thanks for the info!  Do we think there'd still be lots of rabbits and things that can run a lot faster than zombies and dart out of their way pretty easily?  (I once saw a cat have a litter of kittens and then eat the one that was stillborn.  You never quite see 'sweet Mrs. Fluffykins' the same after that...)

 

I liked this episode, mostly because I was fairly confident that none of the group would be killed off.   A couple of things puzzled me, though.  Like when they came across the cars, why didn't they see if they were still running or not?  Maybe it's because one vehicle alone wouldn't hold all of them, although I think there were two cars there.  I guess they just assume they were out of gas, which they probably were.  

 

Another thing, I thought the barn door scene was Maggie's dream at first, too.  I understand it supposedly really did happen. To which I ask, why wasn't the door secured?  Not just against walkers but also other humans.  It looks like it was just loose and how terribly convenient that Daryl was wandering by and noticed walkers heading their way.

 

I thought that Abraham knocking the water out of Eugene's hand was a sign that Abraham still cares about him; that he knew why Eugene did it, one of the few ways the character can try and show courage, but Abraham wasn't going to let him risk it.  

 

And I'm with Michonne on her reaction to Sasha.  I get grief, the anger, the hostility, but if acting out puts everyone else at risk, it's time to grow up.    I liked the way they improvised knocking the walkers off the side of the bridge.  Clever and it was working until Sasha screwed it up.   Although she did redeem herself in handling the snarling dogs so quickly.

 

I kept yelling at Maggie to at least try to start the car with the walker in the trunk, too.  I mean at least give it one little turn of the key...

 

To the second bolded thing in your post,  Sasha didn't put them at risk until after Michonne said those things to her, right?  I mean, she said she could take the walkers behind them, but she didn't.  She didn't run off and try to take them all on and bring the herd down on them.  That's where I keep getting confused, because I keep seeing comments that basically say "well, Sasha nearly got them killed at the bridge, so of course Michonne was angry and said those things to her!" but the effect is before the cause there.   Or was there a second conversation with Sasha and Michonne (beyond Michonne's "STOP" at the bridge)?

[Anela]

I really want this show to explore the Amish community who are probably not even aware the world has come to an end unless they were on rumspringa or TLC

I was trying to picture Martha Stewart in that sort of world. I think she would do pretty well, at least for a while. 

[BrokenRemote]

I almost forgot that I did want to say that I found myself warming up to Gabriel a little this episode.  In the beginning with the whole hair shirt thing he came off as pompous, but there was something very heartfelt in his words when the rain started, as though he'd been asking for the blessing of rain but knew he didn't deserve it.   Also in his burning of the collar there was a sense that he was taking a step toward reality.

 

 Something tells me he was a little off long before the end of the world, but it was easier for people to just say it was because he was extremely religious or the like.  Now it's kind of obvious that he has a somewhat loose connection to reality and he's not exactly good at social interactions.  I'll admit he can be annoying, but I like that we have a group of people that are not all selfless heroes or super warriors or the smartest or nicest or the most pleasant to be around.  I think that's kind of realistic with a group that you don't choose for yourself, and as long as each one of them is growing with their experiences I'm still interested in their stories.

[kikismom]

Thanks for the info!  Do we think there'd still be lots of rabbits and things that can run a lot faster than zombies and dart out of their way pretty easily?  (I once saw a cat have a litter of kittens and then eat the one that was stillborn.  You never quite see 'sweet Mrs. Fluffykins' the same after that...)

 

 

Just personal opinion here: I think there could be rabbits but not that many.

My reasoning would be that normally, in an original wild environment, there are only so many rodents, birds, deer, whatever...in balance up or down with the resources.

But these are states where an enormous amount of the land area was given over to agriculture. Farming makes a "bloom," a rapid increase in wildlife that can feed off the crops. This can make a bloom in predators that feed off the first animals. Grow crops, increase in bunnies,mice rats squirrels---subsequent increase in hawks snakes. etc.

Now the ZA comes, and it came pretty suddenly. WIld populations fluctuate; but not drastically without a disaster

Farms abandoned, at first a heyday for the rodents and birds who don't have measures to keep them out of the fields anymore.

But then that's it. No more crops planted. No more irrigation. No more weed prevention etc. The overpopulated rodents are now too many to subsist on the original resources and could starve but more likely a feast for predators.

But the rich food sources for predators led their numbers to expand also...when the bunnies mice squirrels etc. are no more they would die or move on..

 

This time in the story would be a year after the crop planted the summer of the ZA ran out. Less food for rodents but still big numbers of birds of prey, or snakes. So bunnies have humans hunting food, walkers grabbing at weaker and slower rodents...and voila! a third enemy---carnivorous wild/feral predators competing for the last dregs of bunny meat. Bummer.

[Raven1707]

 

I think we can all agree that Maggie's reaction to Beth was due to (bad) writing/editing

 

Realistically, I think the only thing we can ALL agree on is that we don't all agree on anything.

[Cthulhudrew]

Sasha's scene with Noah at the campfire, then Maggie and Gabriel as he throws his collar in the fire - not going to lie, got a little teary.  Something about it just moved me.  Nice work all around, actors, writers etc, all on the ball.  

 

I'd have found the collar burning scene more moving and honest if Gabriel hadn't been sitting right in front of Maggie when he did it. While he didn't look directly at her, or even acknowledge her, it still came across to me as being more than a little manipulative, if not necessarily between the characters, to me the viewer. Now, if Gabriel had been sitting on the other side of camp and Maggie had just happened to notice him having this moment of crisis and dropping his collar in the fire without having been provoked by her presence? To me, that would have made the scene much more powerful, each character having their own private reaction to what was going on, and not making it seem like a martyrdom.

[kikismom]

Realistically, I think the only thing we can ALL agree on is that we don't all agree on anything.

Yes we do! You're wrong!

[Pete Martell]

Why does that have to be the only other possible reaction? Is there not a reaction in between that would have been better than either your extreme of shoulder shrugging (which I never implied nor said) and the histrionics that didn't match Maggie's demeanor for weeks?  

 

They had to have Maggie react that way because they wanted someone to have a big melodramatic reaction. Maggie was a plot device. 

 

She could have had multiple reactions, but we've since seen those reactions, in moments that are finally about her and not about trying to manipulate the audience. 

[RedheadZombie]

 (When there was famine in N Korea, people tried to eat grass, but humans don't have multiple stomachs to do that like ruminants/hoofstock.)

 

This is more horrible than a zombie apocalypse.

 

I liked this episode, mostly because I was fairly confident that none of the group would be killed off.   A couple of things puzzled me, though.  Like when they came across the cars, why didn't they see if they were still running or not?  Maybe it's because one vehicle alone wouldn't hold all of them, although I think there were two cars there.  I guess they just assume they were out of gas, which they probably were.  

 

That really bothered me, too.  Maggie didn't look at the gas gauge, or attempt to start the car.  I wish they had shown the car was out of gas, otherwise it's an oversight.  Even if you can't pack everyone in/on the car, you can have half the group drive ahead.  They're going to either split the group in two, or have them settle in one spot, IMO. 

[GreyBunny]

That bugged too,  I just wank it that they saw that it had a flat tire or maybe the transmission fell out.

 

You know nobody is missing Tyreese as badly as Judith.  Her gentle giant held her securely against his nicely padded body, smiling and singing to her.  Now she's being juggled by little scowling men, getting bruised by their protruding ribs, wondering who the hell this Grizzly Adams guy and sidekick Deputy Droop-a-Long are.

 

No kidding!  You just know she looked at those dogs and hoped they were a nice pack of wolves that would adopt her and take her to a nice, shady den.

[TexasChic]

So when the dogs came out of the woods, am I the only one who, just for a second, thought they were the wolves everyones been talking about? Also, I immediately noticed Sasha cut Abraham with the knife she had just got through slashing walkers with. I was surprised nothing was said about it. But then, they get blood sprayed on them and in their faces all the freaking time, so maybe it has to do with the bite rather than the blood? Hmmm... Oh, and one last thing, after Sasha shot the dogs and Rick got up and started breaking that stick into a 'Y' shape, I thought he was going to use it to look for water.

[AngelaHunter]

Oh, and one last thing, after Sasha shot the dogs and Rick got up and started breaking that stick into a 'Y' shape, I thought he was going to use it to look for water.

 

Ha! I wish the dog scene had lasted a few more seconds. Seeing Our Gang reduced to prey for feral dogs was quite gripping to me.

 

 

[candall]

Just personal opinion here: I think there could be rabbits but not that many.

My reasoning would be that normally, in an original wild environment, there are only so many rodents, birds, deer, whatever...in balance up or down with the resources.

But these are states where an enormous amount of the land area was given over to agriculture. Farming makes a "bloom," a rapid increase in wildlife that can feed off the crops. This can make a bloom in predators that feed off the first animals. Grow crops, increase in bunnies,mice rats squirrels---subsequent increase in hawks snakes. etc.

Now the ZA comes, and it came pretty suddenly. WIld populations fluctuate; but not drastically without a disaster

Farms abandoned, at first a heyday for the rodents and birds who don't have measures to keep them out of the fields anymore.

But then that's it. No more crops planted. No more irrigation. No more weed prevention etc. The overpopulated rodents are now too many to subsist on the original resources and could starve but more likely a feast for predators.

But the rich food sources for predators led their numbers to expand also...when the bunnies mice squirrels etc. are no more they would die or move on..

 

This time in the story would be a year after the crop planted the summer of the ZA ran out. Less food for rodents but still big numbers of birds of prey, or snakes. So bunnies have humans hunting food, walkers grabbing at weaker and slower rodents...and voila! a third enemy---carnivorous wild/feral predators competing for the last dregs of bunny meat. Bummer.

Nature's supply & demand is fascinating.  I've been here long enough to see the rabbit/coyote populations switch back and forth several times, but last year was the first year mice were down and snakes were up--must be a much slower cycle.  (If you have any insight into that ecosystem, I'd love to know.  The rabbits and coyotes don't try to bring their business inside my house.)

 

I see that you're totally on target with the deer.  It didn't occur to me that instead of x number of "deer hunters," suddenly every member of the population would be looking to bag a deer.

[BrokenRemote]

So when the dogs came out of the woods, am I the only one who, just for a second, thought they were the wolves everyones been talking about? Also, I immediately noticed Sasha cut Abraham with the knife she had just got through slashing walkers with. I was surprised nothing was said about it. But then, they get blood sprayed on them and in their faces all the freaking time, so maybe it has to do with the bite rather than the blood? Hmmm... Oh, and one last thing, after Sasha shot the dogs and Rick got up and started breaking that stick into a 'Y' shape, I thought he was going to use it to look for water.

 

No Fair Wolves!  (Sounds like the sign a striking worker is holding up--Wolves Unfair to Workers Walkers!)

[Boofish]

Count me among those ok with Mags reaction. Thinking she is dead then be given hope she is alive then seeing her dead called for that one family member at every southern funeral I have ever attended who begs "the lort" to take them instead reaction.