S05.E06: Episode 6

[Catherinewriter]

In response to all our comments about ridiculous lines, arcs, etc., I wonder if any of the actors ever speak up and say, "You know, Julian, that's really a gratuituos line, could she say something else?" How much power do you think they have to question things they're expected to do, say, etc? Anyone have any idea? 

 

Re the Julian love for Mary, it seems to me that Dockery is in the best position to speak up. If she wants to, that is. Here's a terrible thought. What if what we're seeing, hearing, is the result of cast members speaking up, in which case, what were the original lines?    Arrrrrhhghghghghghg

[psychoticstate]

Mary and Edith are both assholes, frankly.  Mary consistently thinks the world revolves around her, something that is supported by just about everyone other than Edith, and Edith acts as though the world is going to spin off its axis at any moment. 

 

Won't everyone know Edith's secret about Marigold if it's noticed that the Drewes' little girl is suddenly gone at the same time that Edith left?  Do we care anymore?

 

Is anyone going to remind Mary that as fantastically awesome as it is that she got a daring new hairstyle, she does have a son upstairs and I believe his name is George?

[Avaleigh]

In response to all our comments about ridiculous lines, arcs, etc., I wonder if any of the actors ever speak up and say, "You know, Julian, that's really a gratuituos line, could she say something else?" How much power do you think they have to question things they're expected to do, say, etc? Anyone have any idea?

I doubt they have a say. I'd be shocked if they do. Maybe once in awhile like some of the ad libbing that Allen Leech did during Sybil's death scene but I don't think it happens very often. Julian Fellowes is so touchy. This guy can't even bring himself to have a co-writer (unless his wife counts) help him out so I feel like it would go against his nature as far as being cool with having the actors change this or that line.

[LaChavalina]

I was frustrated with Edith, too, but I do think the writing is consistent with someone who is suffering from a deep depression--surpressing her pain, withdrawing, lashing out. It's a good performance by LC as difficult as it is to watch. More true-to-life than a lot of what we see on this show.

 

And, honestly. What is Mrs. Drewe going to do, take her three remaining grubby children and run off to live in poverty? OK, bye.

[helenamonster]

Now onto the other idiot couple:

She seems to see it as a breech of confidentiality, but Bates is her husband and husbands and wives should not keep secrets for others when the secret could destroy their marriage. Besides, we saw in a previous episode that Bates discovered Anna putting something in her coat pocket at Downton. He asked her what it was and didn't she say something mysterious about it but basically explain it away? So why doesn't she just tell the truth and remind him of that day? Bates also keeps Robert's secrets as part of his employment and he would never breathe a word to anyone else about Mary's "sketching trip". And likely he would believe Anna because it would finally make sense why Anna didn't go on the trip with Mary. 

 

They actually had an opportunity here to do a really interesting mini-plot about Anna's loyalties as a married lady's maid. Most women in her position weren't married and could afford to uphold discretion when it came to their employers' more scandalous errands. But Anna has a husband, and the secret Mary asked her to keep, which came in a physical, tangible form, could have very well destroyed her marriage. As a character whose most prominent trait is loyalty, I think it would have been a really awesome avenue to explore further for the show. Who means more to Anna, Mary or Bates?

 

Now that I think about it, actually, things kind of worked out for both Anna and Mary in regards to the diaphragm. Anna didn't have to rat out Mary for Sex Week, and now that all the Green business is out in the open, Bates won't think that Anna is using it from here on out. So basically, Anna covered for Mary by kind of admitting that she thought Bates was a murderer and that's why she didn't want to have his child, and Bates understood because he had given a thought to murdering Green. It all kind of weirdly wraps up, if you think about it.

 

I'm still agog at Edith. I think what bothers me most about this whole thing (besides all the people she's steamrolled over in her haphazard quest for what she believes will make her happy) is her total lack of foresight. She's already bounced Marigold around every time the current living situation isn't to her liking, but the way she took Marigold from the Drewes is a whole new level of not stopping and thinking. She took Marigold from the house with nothing more than the clothes on her back and a teddy bear. Now, I don't have children, but my family has friends that do, and one thing I've noticed about all of them? Children, especially babies and toddlers, come with stuff. A friend of my mom's could come over for the afternoon with her kid and you'd think she was staying for a month. What stuff does Edith have for Marigold? What about diapers? And this was still the time before disposable diapers, right? So is Edith going to wash the cloth ones? How? She's never even washed her own clothes! Speaking of clothes, Marigold can't wear that same outfit for days on end. What about food? She can't live on ice cream. Edith could go out and buy all this stuff, but she'd have to lug Marigold around with her because there's no one else to watch her. She doesn't even have a pram! Have fun trying to carry all that stuff and a cranky toddler at the same time, Edith! Jesus, where is the planning? Where is even a whiff of a single moment of rational thought?

 

Honestly, Edith and Mary, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. They are both so extremely self-absorbed, it's maddening. Mary's comes through needing everyone's attention on her at all times, even when it's not attention she particularly enjoys (see: Tony). Edith's comes from not using her brain and simply running roughshod over everyone else, including her innocent daughter, as long as she's happy at the end of it. And there's no more Sybil to balance all of this nasty self-centeredness out. Can the Crawleys, like, adopt Anna or something?

[Lillybee]

From the very beginning, Edith seemed to be out of place with this family. I wonder if she could be Rosamund's daughter who was born in Switzerland and given to Robert and Cora to raise. She is the only adult who really takes an interest in Edith.

[CleoCaesar]

Anyone else have at least a brief feeling that Lady Mary was going to pull a Christopher Reeve and fall off her horse?

 

Yep. Then she would have lost use of her legs, been diagnosed with permanent paralysis by Dr. Clarkson, chilled out in a wheelchair for a few months, and then magically got up and started walking.

[RedHawk]

I wonder if [Edith] could be Rosamund's daughter who was born in Switzerland and given to Robert and Cora to raise.

 

 

That it so soap opera that I won't blink an eye if it happens! There was that moment at Rosamund's when she seemed to nearly confess to Edith that something similar had happened to her. Always leaving the door open...

Yep. Then [Mary] would have lost use of her legs, been diagnosed with permanent paralysis by Dr. Clarkson, chilled out in a wheelchair for a few months, and then magically got up and started walking.

 

 

This after Tony had quickly trotted Mabel to the altar, Blake had made a hasty departure to Ireland, and Tom had stepped in to nurse her and reveal his undying love, "I always wanted you more, dear Mary. Sybil was just a distraction because I never imagined a woman of your station, beauty, intelligence, charm, kindness, etc. could be mine."

"Oh Tom, I knew you secretly longed to be an aristocrat. Who doesn't?"

 

Lavish wedding, everyone happy, funny quip from Violet, close curtains.

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[txhorns79]

And what kind of idiot with no childcare experience thinks it's okay to drink while alone with a child.  I'm afraid Marigold may have a short shelf life here.

 

I'm sorry, why isn't Edith allowed to have a drink when alone with a child?  Maybe if having one drink made her drunk, then I could see that being a thing, but seriously, people drank and smoked while pregnant for generations without destroying the human race.  Unless you are breastfeeding, the idea that a parent cannot now have a drink when alone with their kid seems seriously over the top.   

 

 

Who means more to Anna, Mary or Bates?

 

I would say Mary.  Anna seems to like her better than Bates, and obviously, she is extremely loyal to Mary.  I'm not sure if she feels the same way towards Bates.  It's like she loves him, but would be entirely fine on her own as well. 

[Kristen]

Once again, you've outdone yourselves with the graphics. They made me literally LOL as much as Mary being such a c-word about Edith did.

[Popples]

When Cora said "What's the matter, darling?" to Isis, I was stunned at Robert's lack of immediate concern. I would have thought he'd have shoved Cora out of the way and started to cradle Isis.

[RedHawk]

Won't everyone know Edith's secret about Marigold if it's noticed that the Drewes' little girl is suddenly gone at the same time that Edith left?  Do we care anymore?

 

 

Riiiight! Edith Crawley, child-napper!

 

Of course it's all going to come out when someone in the family finally notices, and yet the Abbey (upstairs, I mean) is full of dim bulbs and self-absorbed ninnies who don't seem to know or care how many children Drewe has, so it will likely take a while before anyone other than Violet (and Tom) get a clue. The Drewes will have a handy lie spread all over the county by that time.

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[teddysmom]

If my dog was acting like Isis, I sure as fuck wouldn't be galavanting around at some stupid hunt or whatever else they were all doing. Get the god dam vet in there immediately. From the symptoms she probably has a blocked colon and is not long for this world.

Lord, my Ted woke up with a sore neck last week and I had him to the the vet before lunch.

[kpw801]

Riiiight! Edith Crawley, child-napper!

 

Of course it's all going to come out when someone in the family finally notices, and yet the Abbey (upstairs, I mean) is full of dim bulbs and self-absorbed ninnies who don't seem to know or care how many children Drewe has, so it will likely take a while before anyone other than Violet (and Tom) get a clue. The Drewes will have a handy lie spread all over the county by that time.

But the story is supposed to be that the Drews couldn't afford to take care of the child after all and that Edith Crawley stepped in to give the child a home at the Abbey.

[DeepRunner]

Mary and Edith are both assholes, frankly.  Mary consistently thinks the world revolves around her, something that is supported by just about everyone other than Edith, and Edith acts as though the world is going to spin off its axis at any moment. 

 

Won't everyone know Edith's secret about Marigold if it's noticed that the Drewes' little girl is suddenly gone at the same time that Edith left?  Do we care anymore?

 

Is anyone going to remind Mary that as fantastically awesome as it is that she got a daring new hairstyle, she does have a son upstairs and I believe his name is George?

 

I agree with your assessment of Mary, but I'm in the Edith camp, so...Regarding George, yep, where is he? We see Sybbie more than George, it seems.

 

Regarding Sybbie, it would be great if she let "Dork" slip instead of "Donk".

[kpw801]

I'm still agog at Edith. I think what bothers me most about this whole thing (besides all the people she's steamrolled over in her haphazard quest for what she believes will make her happy) is her total lack of foresight. She's already bounced Marigold around every time the current living situation isn't to her liking, but the way she took Marigold from the Drewes is a whole new level of not stopping and thinking. She took Marigold from the house with nothing more than the clothes on her back and a teddy bear.

 

To be fair, Mrs. Drew refused to gather her things.  Edith is not without resources.  She can get some more "stuff" with little trouble.  Mrs. Drew's histrionics made it more sensible to just take the child and the only thing given freely (the Teddy bear) and roll on to the next stage in life.

[Mrs peel]

Remember back in season one when the Turkish man (Mr. Pamuk?) died in Mary's bed, then Mary, her mother, and Anna moved the body and hid Mary's involvement?  They were saving Mary socially so that she could find a husband, iirc.  Edith wrote a letter to the Turkish Embassy, dropping a dime on her sister out of jealously for Mary's inexplicable popularity with...well...everyone.   Mary's horrible, but Edith is no saint either.

Except Mary had nothing but contempt for Edith long before that.  They were shown even in the first episode arguing - over whether Mary should be in mourning for her fiancé.

[DeepRunner]

From the very beginning, Edith seemed to be out of place with this family. I wonder if she could be Rosamund's daughter who was born in Switzerland and given to Robert and Cora to raise. She is the only adult who really takes an interest in Edith.

 

I have previously said that I think Edith is Rosamund's daughter. If S6 really is the end of the Abbey Road (Beatles reference and pun intended), I would like that to be one of the last great reveals.

[kpw801]

I doubt they have a say. I'd be shocked if they do. Maybe once in awhile like some of the ad libbing that Allen Leech did during Sybil's death scene but I don't think it happens very often. Julian Fellowes is so touchy. This guy can't even bring himself to have a co-writer (unless his wife counts) help him out so I feel like it would go against his nature as far as being cool with having the actors change this or that line.

I think I read somewhere that Laura Carmichael asked JF if he could write that Michael Gregson came back - anything to give Edith some happiness because the actress said the way he is writing the character now, he must mean for Edith to eventually go mad.  JF did not go along with her suggestion so it remains to be seen what happens to Edith because seriously she should have had a nervous breakdown by now.

Edited February 9, 2015 by kpw801

[Lyndy]

Dropped in on this recap to see what's happening at old Downton and was reminded why I stopped watching this show. Apologies for the redundancy but Mary is an awful, spoiled bitch and a stellar example of why people deride the upper class. I get ragey just reading about how evil she is.

I'd like to believe Edith's weird impulsive decisions are over and she can run her new publishing company and raise her kid. Then when she's obscenely wealthy with resources she doesn't rely on a husband for, she can visit Downton and act superior to her sister who will hopefully be trapped in a loveless marriage and raising a kid who hates her.

[RedHawk]

But the story is supposed to be that the Drews couldn't afford to take care of the child after all and that Edith Crawley stepped in to give the child a home at the Abbey.

They hadn't quite gotten to that point though. So now if someone asks about that little farmer's girl Edith was interested in it will be, from Robert most likely, "See, I told you she would get bored and forget all about that poor child. Oh well, I'm sure she's fine with the Drewes."

 

That's my snark but who knows what will happen next? Sometimes story lines drag on forever only to suddenly rocket into hyper-speed. I have a feeling Edith and Marigold won't long be undiscovered, because yes, someone will put together that Marigold has also disappeared. Will it be that Mrs. Drewe goes to Cora? At this point my mind is open to anything.

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[BusyOctober]

 

And what kind of idiot with no childcare experience thinks it's okay to drink while alone with a child.

.

 

Haha! Plenty of people did back then, and even more recently. Attitudes toward drinking have changed a great deal in the past 30 years. Women drank alcohol while breastfeeding for centuries. The human race goes on..

Attitudes toward alcohol vary by generation I guess. When I was very little, I lived on a naval base and my parents hosted a ton of cocktail parties.  Adults drank and smoked around me for years and probably drove to & from my parents house lit up like Christmas trees.  I never thought anything pro or con about it. But I guess all the anti-drinking and driving messages I heard in high school and college stuck during the 80's/ 90's with me.

 

I was just out for dinner at a family friendly chain restaurant Saturday night.  Two couples and 5 kids between them (from infant in a carrier to 10 yr old) sat near us.. All 4 of the adults had at least 2 drinks each while we were there (approx 1 hour). I was horrified that there wasn't a designator driver in the group. I mentioned it to the manager on my way out so maybe he wouldn't allow them to be served anymore. I am not a teetotaler but I couldn't imagine having 2 drinks then getting into a car, let alone with my kids! 

 

Back to the others at DA- I  liked Mary's bob, but I don't see how or why she's the hottest thing in England. Why do we have to suffer through several more seasons of "Who will Mary Marry?"  Also getting beyond tired of the Boring Bates.  Just hurry up and solve the damn case already.  Put them both in jail and let Mosely move up to Valet.  Edith's prolonged torture is wearing thin too.  At least she took action to get her story moving forward.

 

Still love Violet and Isobel the best.  I'd rather see  them as the entire focus of the show if the current plan is to keep retreading the same plots for everyone else.

[mightycrone]

Heaven knows I love a Violet one-liner as much as anyone, but it's also great to see Maggie Smith do what she does best-- act.  The final scene with Isobel is pure gold.  The shift(s) in her facial expressions tell the viewers so much more than any dialogue ever could.  

Edited February 9, 2015 by mightycrone

[Avaleigh]

I'm still agog at Edith. I think what bothers me most about this whole thing (besides all the people she's steamrolled over in her haphazard quest for what she believes will make her happy) is her total lack of foresight. She's already bounced Marigold around every time the current living situation isn't to her liking, but the way she took Marigold from the Drewes is a whole new level of not stopping and thinking. She took Marigold from the house with nothing more than the clothes on her back and a teddy bear. Now, I don't have children, but my family has friends that do, and one thing I've noticed about all of them? Children, especially babies and toddlers, come with stuff. A friend of my mom's could come over for the afternoon with her kid and you'd think she was staying for a month. What stuff does Edith have for Marigold? What about diapers? And this was still the time before disposable diapers, right? So is Edith going to wash the cloth ones? How? She's never even washed her own clothes! Speaking of clothes, Marigold can't wear that same outfit for days on end. What about food? She can't live on ice cream. Edith could go out and buy all this stuff, but she'd have to lug Marigold around with her because there's no one else to watch her. She doesn't even have a pram! Have fun trying to carry all that stuff and a cranky toddler at the same time, Edith! Jesus, where is the planning? Where is even a whiff of a single moment of rational thought?

 

Lol at this, it's so true. I did briefly wonder if Edith drove to the station with Marigold on her lap Britney Spears style. No, of course I'm not expecting her to have a carseat, I just think if this all hadn't been handled so terribly and she wasn't lying to the people who would help her that she'd be driven to the station and she'd be able to sit in the back with Marigold.

 

Heaven knows I love a Violet one-liner as much as anyone, but it's also great to see Maggie Smith do what she does best-- act.  The final scene with Isobel is pure gold.  The shift(s) in her facial expressions tell the viewers so much more than any dialogue could.

I agree. I also really liked the scene with the prince where she has the line "You do know me, Igor. That I must concede." 

Edited February 9, 2015 by Avaleigh

[RedHawk]

Maggie Smith's comic timing is perfect. Her silent facial reaction to having Isobel witness her domestic drama with the servants was hilarious. 

 

Those two could have a conversation about paint drying and I'd tune in. And by the way, "The Second Best Exotic Marigold Hotel" will be out in a few weeks and again pairs these two fine actresses so they can spar with each in the current century (in India!).

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[feminaformosa]

Edith has wanted to parent this child from the start, and everything she did was an attempt to stay in her daughter's life. Now that she has her own independent fortune, and it's clear that her family doesn't really care about her, who gives a crap what people think of her? She doesn't think she's going to get married, so big deal about her reputation, doesn't care about messing up her family's reputation (and the only one it MIGHT affect is Mary, and Mary is doing plenty to put her own reputation at risk, plus Edith never cared about ruining her reputation before). I was cheering her on, finally, for her to tell the truth and take back her child. My reading of the attachment literature is that the child needs to form a healthy attachment to someone at a young age to develop properly, and that part of that development is to be able to form attachments to other caregivers as well. Marigold will be just fine. 

 

I could not stand Mary's bitchiness in this episode. She was the worst, so awful. I know she hates Edith, but damn, she is a cold bitch. She has never been a nice person, but this episode in particular, she was terrible. I do think it is a function of the writing that Mary lacks nuance. 

 

And OMG this damn Bates/Anna story. I think it was the Slate spoiler podcast when they said that they wished they'd hang him already. Why does Brendan Coyle always end up playing these insufferable characters (Lark Rise to Candleford, North and South, and now this?). I am not sure if it is being typecast or just the way he has about him, but all his stupid self-righteousness about the birth control and not believing his wife, I just don't even with these two. 

 

I was so excited when this season started, but this last episode... I don't know if I can handle the story retreads and terrible characters. That is at least something that the Edith story has - it's relatively novel for this show. 

 

Oh! ETA that I am not sure I see where all this foreshadowed opposition to Rose's beau is going to come from. This seems like a match made in heaven - she is minor nobility, but not that high up because her dad is a civil servant, and the best connections seem to come from her mom/Crawleys. She doesn't really have much money, right? Maybe her mom has some, but it's not a huge fortune. Meanwhile this guy is new money and his dad has a new title; if no one cared that Cora was Jewish (which would actually make the children Jewish, which Rose's children wouldn't be unless they converted them) with money, they shouldn't care that this guy is either. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by feminaformosa

[moonb]

She took Marigold from the house with nothing more than the clothes on her back and a teddy bear. Now, I don't have children, but my family has friends that do, and one thing I've noticed about all of them? Children, especially babies and toddlers, come with stuff. A friend of my mom's could come over for the afternoon with her kid and you'd think she was staying for a month. What stuff does Edith have for Marigold? What about diapers? And this was still the time before disposable diapers, right? So is Edith going to wash the cloth ones? How? She's never even washed her own clothes! Speaking of clothes, Marigold can't wear that same outfit for days on end. What about food? She can't live on ice cream. Edith could go out and buy all this stuff, but she'd have to lug Marigold around with her because there's no one else to watch her. She doesn't even have a pram!

 

To be fair, I don't think a toddler in a farmer's family at that time would have all that many clothes - though of course she would have others, but she wouldn't necessary have a lot of "baby stuff." And I think I read somewhere that pre-automatic washing machines, busy mothers just didn't wash cloth diapers unless absolutely necessary (read: sometimes they would just let a urine-soaked diaper dry and reuse it). Eww, I know, but cleanliness standards were different without a lot of appliances around. Granted, that's not going to help Edith, who can do a few "practical" things but would need to rely a lot on hotel staff and a laundress.

 

But yeah, I agree that Edith's present situation illustrates how unable to think and plan she really is. Once that champagne wears off, there's going to be a whole lot of "now what?"

[RedHawk]

I honestly think that Fellowes believes that in Edith he is giving us a character who is breaking out of the mold and at last making her own decisions. I can see that he's writing it that way and yet also see that he's failing miserably to write so that viewers care about Edith and her situation. I DO. I like her and I like that she took control at last. However, I can also see why so many find her annoying, selfish, and tiresome.

[Andorra]

I think one of the things with Downton, that attracts such a big audience is, that everyone has characters to root for, others to despise and others to be neutral about. Mary and Edith have been the most polarizing characters of the show from the very beginning, so it's not surprising that they're polarizing right now.

 

What does surprise me is how different the reaction in the UK and in the US are. In the UK people were mostly horrified by Mary's insensitive behaviour and while they thought the scene with Mrs Drewe was heartbreaking, most of the viewers seemed to applaud Edith for finally making a decision about Marigold and to leave Downton with her.

Today in the US, the reactions seems to be much more negative about Edith and much more positive about Mary.

I wonder if it is, because the Cora/Edith scene was in the US version? In the UK we didn't see ANY sympathy with Edith, you in the US saw that Cora took an effort to be understanding.

[statsgirl]

 Maybe I'm a bit like Mary, I don't know, but I'm glad we finally got some plot movement on this because I was beyond sick of Edith turning up at the Drewes every episode and then moping away. She can't have her cake and eat it too - she can't have Marigold and her place in society.

But Mary can.  She have her son and a line of men going out the door while she takes her pick after sleeping with them, and Downton Abbey to manage, not to mention the love of her family.

 

After watching this episode, I think I'm going to have to give up on Downton Abbey because I can't stand Mary being such a bitch every episode, and then dumping on Edith.  "Why should we act like we're upset that the man Edith is in love with died?  We all know it a year ago."  How about common human decency if you have no empathy at all?

 

It's fun watching Violet snark at people who can stand up for themselves.  It's disturbing watching Mary be cruel to Edith when she's down.

 

I thought it was interesting that really no one seemed to understand the depth of Edith's relationships with Gregson.  Their courtship really was quite short and done mostly away from the family.  I'm not sure anyone thinks they were anywhere close to marriage.

That says more about the family than it does about Edith.  There seems to be no attempt to care about Edith at all.  It was like a pack of wild animals ignoring the wounded one in their midst.  Dogs behave better.

 

Cora at least recognized that Edith was upset.  For Mary, it was again, Why talk about Edith? Let's talk about my new hair cut and all the things I'm going to do now!

 

 

In real life, Marigold's ability to attach would be a very serious concern. 

The newer research suggests that as long as the new caretaker is loving and has a good bond with the child, the child's ability to attach need not be affected. Since Edith was there first, and continued to be around while with the Drewe's, Marigold knows her to be a loving and familiar person.  In terms of losing a loving caregiver, you could also say that Mrs, Drewe refusing to let Edith see Marigold also affected her.

 

In terms of Marigold's "stuff" most of what she had would either be hand-me-down's from the Drewe's other children or primitive toys.  A good hotel can handle baby things and Edith can hire a nanny to take care of the rest.  Mrs. Drewe may have loved Marigold but she also had three other children and a husband to cook and clean for so there would have been considerable benign neglect compared to a modern child.

 

Given how much the Crawleys drink and what their alcohol tolerance must be, one drink of champagne is not going to affect her ability to care for her child.

 

 

What does surprise me is how different the reaction in the UK and in the US are. In the UK people were mostly horrified by Mary's insensitive behaviour and while they thought the scene with Mrs Drewe was heartbreaking, most of the viewers seemed to applaud Edith for finally making a decision about Marigold and to leave Downton with her.

Today in the US, the reactions seems to be much more negative about Edith and much more positive about Mary.

I wonder if it is, because the Cora/Edith scene was in the US version? In the UK we didn't see ANY sympathy with Edith, you in the US saw that Cora took an effort to be understanding.

Cora being shown sympathizing with Edith would actually be likely to bring more sympathy for Edith because it would demonstrate that it's okay to feel sorry for Edith.

 

I think much of it is the different ways of thinking about the world. In the US, it's the Horatio Alger mentality, you make your own way in the world and suck up any problems.  It's not true in real life (The Daily Show famously skewered Craig Nelson for saying that he never took a penny of government handouts, he managed by himself on medicare and student grants) but it is a commonly accepted philosophy.  In Europe, there is much more of a community attitude, which is why there are social democrats in Europe but more right wing parties in the U.S.

 

The current debate about vaccinations is an example of these different ways of thinking.  In the US, it's presented as "Should I vaccinate my child or will he/she be more hurt by the vaccine?"  In Europe, it's presented as "I have a responsibility to vaccinate my child so that someone who is physically weaker or immuno-compromised does not get very ill from my child having a mild case."  (In many European countries, they are free from measles because of what is known as "herd immunity", the state where enough people have been vaccinated that the disease can't gain a foothold.)

Edited February 9, 2015 by statsgirl

[Avaleigh]

I do feel like we got more clarification in the US version as to why Edith's family isn't on the same page as she is regarding the tragedy of Gregson. 

I thought it was interesting that really no one seemed to understand the depth of Edith's relationships with Gregson.  Their courtship really was quite short and done mostly away from the family.  I'm not sure anyone thinks they were anywhere close to marriage.

 

 

That says more about the family than it does about Edith.  There seems to be no attempt to care about Edith at all.

 

 

I think it has more to do with Edith lying to them about the true nature of the relationship. That makes more sense to me than the idea that there's no attempt to care about Edith when we saw Cora, Robert, Tom, and Isobel all make comments and take actions to show that they care in this episode. IMO Mary's bitchiness doesn't take away from what other characters do and say to show that they care about Edith. When Cora did ask Edith more about Gregson, Edith would lie to her. I think it says a lot more about Edith that the family doesn't know about the depth of her relationship with Gregson. That was ultimately Edith's choice.

[limecoke]

Why does a dog have to sicken and die just because it's name is Isis?  That's a legitimate name of both a flower and many women over the years.  Just because a bunch of terrorist, murderous creeps are called that should make no difference.  Don't kill the dog!  Don't let the terrorists win!

 

Is it wrong that I was hoping Thomas Barrow would die?  I'm so tired of his endless vendetta against...well...everyone and him being a cartoon character, mustache-twirlling villain.  Now I suppose they will turn him into a great guy.  Whatever.

 

I'm also sick of the Bates/murder stuff.  Enough, already.

Edited February 9, 2015 by limecoke

[Driad]

 

The DA plots are full of "Had I but known"s -- sad occurrences that could have been prevented if someone had told someone else something.  This trope is common in sitcoms (unfortunately) but in dramas it quickly becomes repetitive and predictable.

 

I am pretending that we are watching Downton Mental Hospital, including the hallucinations of the inmates.

[CleoCaesar]

Is it wrong that I was hoping Thomas Barrow would die?  I'm so tired of his endless vendetta against...well...everyone and him being a cartoon character, mustache-twirlling villain.

 

If it's wrong to wish death upon Thomas, then I don't want to be right.

 

He's an asshole, plain and simple. Has been from the pilot when he tripped Bates. What bothers me is that we are supposed to feel sympathy for him because he's gay. He can be awful and evil and just needlessly cruel to everyone around him, but then it's oh poor Thomas, so gay and lonely. Whatever, show. He's a dick.

[Llywela]

What does surprise me is how different the reaction in the UK and in the US are. In the UK people were mostly horrified by Mary's insensitive behaviour and while they thought the scene with Mrs Drewe was heartbreaking, most of the viewers seemed to applaud Edith for finally making a decision about Marigold and to leave Downton with her.

Today in the US, the reactions seems to be much more negative about Edith and much more positive about Mary.

I wonder if it is, because the Cora/Edith scene was in the US version? In the UK we didn't see ANY sympathy with Edith, you in the US saw that Cora took an effort to be understanding.

I don't think that's true. I'm in the UK, watched at UK pace; my sympathy was been with Mrs Drewe from the start, and I wasn't alone in that. I've actually felt the opposite, that there's been a lot more cheerleading for Edith's actions since the US airing.

Why does a dog have to sicken and die just because it's name is Isis?  That's a legitimate name of both a flower and many women over the years.  Just because a bunch of terrorist, murderous creeps are called that should make no difference.  Don't kill the dog!  Don't let the terrorists win!

Isis isn't the name of a flower, that's iris. Isis is an Egyptian goddess. The dog Isis is getting pretty elderly now, for a lab, even allowing for it being a different dog in season one - getting her past the next time jump to another season would have been seriously pushing it, so they gave her a storylined exit so she wouldn't just disappear between seasons.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Llywela

[mojito]

 

As for Clarkson's understanding and acceptance of Thomas, just because many many people in the past were racist doesn't mean everyone was or that everyone was to an equal degree. Similarly, I also believe that many people in the past who knew men and women who were homosexual did not judge them as sick and horrible creatures, but instead accepted that they were "different" and were kind to them, or at least not unkind or cruel.

I so agree. I don't know about the UK, but in the US there was the tendency, at least in the 19th century, to overlook homosexuality by many, many people. People saw it as none of their business. Examples are President James Buchanan and President Franklin Pierece's Vice President. Long time companions. President Grover Cleveland's sister. Walt Whitman, and many more. I read an article years ago about this very subject and it seems that there was a turning point in the US where people started getting into each other's business more. I'm sure it was at different times for different "offenses", but I think the it was in the 20th century. Maybe it was about the time that the temperance idiots got their way.

 

The haters make more noise than the non-haters, but that doesn't mean they are in the majority.

[LaChavalina]

So one glass of champagne (which we never actually saw her get or drink) makes Edith an unfit parent? When she's not pregnant or breastfeeding? This wouldn't even put her over the legal limit for driving...

 

Oy, and the bit with Bates was pretty stupid, too. "Lady Mary was married and had a baby, so when would she need contraception?" Oh, I don't know, maybe any time over the past two years while she had men running in and out of the house?

And OMG this damn Bates/Anna story. I think it was the Slate spoiler podcast when they said that they wished they'd hang him already. Why does Brendan Coyle always end up playing these insufferable characters (Lark Rise to Candleford, North and South, and now this?). I am not sure if it is being typecast or just the way he has about him, but all his stupid self-righteousness about the birth control and not believing his wife, I just don't even with these two. 

[JudyObscure]

I honestly think that Fellowes believes that in Edith he is giving us a character who is breaking out of the mold and at last making her own decisions. I can see that he's writing it that way and yet also see that he's failing miserably to write so that viewers care about Edith and her situation. I DO. I like her and I like that she took control at last. However, I can also see why so many find her annoying, selfish, and tiresome.

I agree with all of this.  I think Edith should do fine from now on.  She will get to London and find a flat or house straight away, go to a department store and select a lot of clothes and general baby things and have it all delivered to her address as wealthy people did at that time. No lugging the shopping around as we do today. Laundry will be sent out and diaper service will stop by three times a week.  She will call a servants' employment service for a maid and nanny and then look to the publishing company.  Gregson was a decent sort so I'm sure he left a trust fund to pay all the expenses for his wife at her private hospital and I think Edith will send a long letter of apology to the Drewes with a nice big check enclosed.

 

I was angry with her for her indecision where Marigold was concerned but when she told Cora that she felt she had let Gregson down I knew she was thinking of him dead with his only child doomed to never hearing his name.  From that moment on I thought she was doing the only possible thing she could live with and I wish her well.

[kpw801]

If it's wrong to wish death upon Thomas, then I don't want to be right.

 

He's an asshole, plain and simple. Has been from the pilot when he tripped Bates.

Actually O'Brien tripped Bates.  But she did it to further Thomas's agenda to get rid of Bates so that he could be valet.  Aside from that yeah he was completely complicit in every low down scheme.  It was Thomas and O'Brien who tried to get Bates sacked as a thief twice!  The first time was when they stole and hid a snuff box but Bates and Anna outsmarted them on that.  Then when Bates caught him stealing wine, they tried to put it on Bates.  I didn't like Thomas but I could understand his motivation.  However Bates helped him when O'Brien turned on him and set up him with Jimmy, yet Thomas continues to behave like a stereotyped villain.  I am tired of him and I am tired of the Bates storylines.

 

What bothers me is that we are supposed to feel sympathy for him because he's gay. He can be awful and evil and just needlessly cruel to everyone around him, but then it's oh poor Thomas, so gay and lonely. Whatever, show. He's a dick.

Amen.

[txhorns79]

My issue with Edith drinking is simple.  Here she is with an active toddler in a strange place with absolutely no real experience in childcare (it's like letting your neighbors 12 year old watch your kid for a week because they watched tie kid for 15 minutes while you ran next door) . Instead of saying something like let's Marigold and mommie have ice cream she's thinking of herself first again with the drink.

 

I would agree that Edith is inexperienced as a parent, but you aren't really explaining why her having a drink is a problem, except in terms of morality.  Maybe if she was drinking a whole bottle of champagne alone that would be an issue, but one glass is nothing.     

[Avaleigh]

I think Edith will send a long letter of apology to the Drewes with a nice big check enclosed.

Edith doesn't seem like she's sorry about what she put the Drewes through at all. I'll be shocked if we end up getting a reference to her sending them a check or anything like that let alone a written letter of apology. That would just give them evidence and it seems like she's still trying to keep her secret.

[SusanSunflower]

I felt sledgehammered by this episode -- oh, and not in a nice way -- but with the reemergence of Gregson, Gregson's wife, will, magazine and publishing company, I was struck to remember Gregson's gorgeous apartment ... which certainly would be nicer and more private than a hotel for someone navigating full time toddler care (infants are so much easier) ... of course, Edith's real problem is Uncle Julian who does not want to lose the character by letting Edith move on with her life .... (see also everyone else -- Mary, Isobel most obviously). 

Anna and John Bates -- just OMG no.  And that train ticket that could "prove his innocence" ...  Carson, Hughes, Mrs. Pattimore at the cottage -- spare me.  Violet and the Prince -- open the curtains and then window and that new maid has already worn out her welcome afaic...  Thomas has always been a problem for me since the character should / would have been sacked in the first season and in just about every season since ... I pretend I don't see him. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[LaChavalina]

Edith doesn't seem like she's sorry about what she put the Drewes through at all. I'll be shocked if we end up getting a reference to her sending them a check or anything like that let alone a written letter of apology. That would just give them evidence and it seems like she's still trying to keep her secret.

If I remember correctly, aren't the Drewes only in that farm because of the charity of the Crawley family? Robert secretly paid off some of Mr. Drewe's father's debts or something?

[statsgirl]

I think much of Thomas' actions stem from the fact that he hates himself.  I heard an interview with the actor and he was talking about how hard it was on homosexuals in those days, to think there is something wrong with them, to be told every time they go to church that there is something wrong with them.  The extent of Thomas' hatred of himself was shown by the lengths he was willing to make himself ill so that he could be like other men.

 

I think it was Gay Prosecution Day on PBS yesterday because Downton Abbey was followed by Grantchester, set in the late 40s but with a plot of homosexual hatred and murder.  It wasn't easy for gay men in those days.

I was angry with her for her indecision where Marigold was concerned but when she told Cora that she felt she had let Gregson down I knew she was thinking of him dead with his only child doomed to never hearing his name.  From that moment on I thought she was doing the only possible thing she could live with and I wish her well.

That makes sense in terms of why she did what she did. Violet and Rosamund were planning to have Marigold put in an orphanage, her plan with the Drewe's had fallen apart because Mrs. Drewe had forbidden her to see Marigold (I felt for Mrs. Drewe but there was some poetic justice in it as her actions had contributed to Edith doing what she did.  I think she was sorry for taking Marigold but she felt like she didn't have a choice.  She'd lost Gregson, she'd lost Marigold, and she was miserable in the bosom of that family.

 

I really don't understand how one glass of champagne is going to affect her ability to take care of Marigold, and I say that as a mother.  She wasn't asking to have a whole bottle sent up.

 

I think it has more to do with Edith lying to them about the true nature of the relationship. That makes more sense to me than the idea that there's no attempt to care about Edith when we saw Cora, Robert, Tom, and Isobel all make comments and take actions to show that they care in this episode. IMO Mary's bitchiness doesn't take away from what other characters do and say to show that they care about Edith. When Cora did ask Edith more about Gregson, Edith would lie to her. I think it says a lot more about Edith that the family doesn't know about the depth of her relationship with Gregson. That was ultimately Edith's choice.

Why did Edith feel the need to lie to them in the first place?  Because Robert opposed every bit of independence she got and had prevented her from getting married, Mary seizes every opportunity to be cruel to her, and no one except Anna and Mrs. Hughes seems to care.

 

In programs that deal with bullying, the bullying behavior is defined by the person experiencing it, not the person handing it out.  In other words, if you feel you are being bullied, the other person needs to stop whatever he/she is doing that makes you feel that way.

 

The family shouldn't have had to know the depth of Edith's feelings for Gregson, although it would have been nice if they cared enough about Edith that she could trust them to tell them.  They knew Gregson had been a friend of Edith's and she was concerned about him; it should have been enough that Edith was feeling upset for them to support her, and to tell Mary to STFU and pick on someone else for a change.

 

Go, Edith.  Leave them and make your own happiness.  They'll never care for you as much as they do for Mary or Sybil.

[RedHawk]

Here she is with an active toddler in a strange place with absolutely no real experience in childcare.

 

 

She's in a hotel room that looks basically child-proof. There's not much there that a toddler could get into, and I don't think Edith is going to pass out or be inebriated after one glass of champagne. She has visited Marigold often and thus is familiar to her and with her. Surely Edith can manage to care for her own child by herself for a day or two while she decides on her next move. 

[wlk68]

Why does a dog have to sicken and die just because it's name is Isis?  That's a legitimate name of both a flower and many women over the years.  Just because a bunch of terrorist, murderous creeps are called that should make no difference.  Don't kill the dog!  Don't let the terrorists win!

I read somewhere - it might've been here - that there was also an issue with the dog that plays Isis not getting along with the dogs that belong to Lord and Lady Carnarvon. 

[statsgirl]

It was the dog in the first season, a male whose name I forget (Osiris?) that didn't get along with the Carnarvon dogs.  That's why in season 2 Isis suddenly appeared.

[helenamonster]

I would say Mary.  Anna seems to like her better than Bates, and obviously, she is extremely loyal to Mary.  I'm not sure if she feels the same way towards Bates.  It's like she loves him, but would be entirely fine on her own as well. 

 

You know, this time last season I would have disagreed with this, but I think you're right. From the rape up until this episode, Anna just seemed exhausted with Bates and having to spend energy on wondering if he was a murderer. I think she still loves him and always will, but if something were to happen where she couldn't be with him anymore, I think she'd be able to pick herself up by her bootstraps and get on with it. But while she's definitely not afraid to give Mary a piece of her mind, I think she'd be devastated if their relationship was in any way threatened or severed.

 

But the story is supposed to be that the Drews couldn't afford to take care of the child after all and that Edith Crawley stepped in to give the child a home at the Abbey.

 

I'm not seeing this at all. It just looks like Edith's making a runner for it to me.

 

I think I read somewhere that Laura Carmichael asked JF if he could write that Michael Gregson came back - anything to give Edith some happiness because the actress said the way he is writing the character now, he must mean for Edith to eventually go mad.  JF did not go along with her suggestion so it remains to be seen what happens to Edith because seriously she should have had a nervous breakdown by now.

 

While I totally understand LC wanting Edith to find some happiness for a change, I can't get upset when the writer of a show doesn't cater to actors' whims. Love it or hate it, I think I'd rather deal with JF's ideas as his own than have a plotline dictated by an actor forced down my throat. I feel like shows get into dangerous territory when they start letting actors make demands beyond their positions. Not saying she's being demanding, but when you give a mouse a cookie and all that.

 

As for Edith and the champagne...yeah, I'm having my issues with her, but that's not one of them. Actually, to be quite honest, I find the whole thing rather sad and strange. After she said that line, I was just trying to picture her and Marigold in the room together, Marigold with ice cream all over her hands, face, and clothes (have fun cleaning that up, Edith!) and Edith just sitting there with a glass of champagne, celebrating her break from the abbey basically all by herself (Marigold's not old enough to understand what's going on, so she doesn't really count). It's just such a weird little tableau that I'm picturing. It's not very happy, honestly.

Edited February 9, 2015 by helenamonster

[JudyObscure]

During the world war the British started calling their German Shepherds, "Alsatians," because, you know, "German."  I guess they're sensitive about dogs with enemy sounding names.   Then again some Americans didn't want to vote for Obama simply because of his middle name so I shouldn't roll me eyes.

 

I don't picture Edith being sad in the hotel.  I think she might feel that a huge weight of indecision has lifted and an empty feeling is gone.  She can go to sleep with her child in her arms for the first time since her breast feeding days and know that they won't have to be separated again. Edith has never felt that anyone in her family loved her best and now she gets to be the most important person in the world to someone. 

[ZoloftBlob]

While I totally understand LC wanting Edith to find some happiness for a change, I can't get upset when the writer of a show doesn't cater to actors' whims. Love it or hate it, I think I'd rather deal with JF's ideas as his own than have a plotline dictated by an actor forced down my throat. I feel like shows get into dangerous territory when they start letting actors make demands beyond their positions. Not saying she's being demanding, but when you give a mouse a cookie and all that.

 

I qualify this by saying I don't think she's made demands either... but JF is also notorious for running Downton Abbey as  a closed shop as far as the writing goes. Since that's not entirely the norm - a lot of shows allow the actors some input without it turning into the actor running the show (and yes I can think of several examples of actor demands ruining a show as well) I can see where someone playing a major character on a long running show might want a bone to be thrown to them.

 

Especially since every one of Edith's storylines has been about the misery of Edith....