S03.E12: Uprising

[slayer2]

The thing is, they are not lovers. Not in anything but the very loosest possible association of the word.  Even with Oliver telling her he loves her, he has done nothing to act on it.  As far as I could tell, for him, nothing has changed. 

 

Felicity mentions how she let herself dream that he'd come back and something would have changed and I didn't hear Oliver saying anything had.  His last words on the subject were to Cupid, that he couldn't allow himself that.  The only thing their relationship allowed her was that hug.  He's still the one that doesn't want it as far as any of us know.  Apparently his subconscious has thought about it and even then it was a disaster.  

 

Felicity has spent a month clinging to the ideals of this man she wholeheartedly believed in and IMO yes, loved too.  She returned to fight for those still living but that's something she had to know Oliver would do too.  In this episode Felicity was letting What Would Oliver Do sit on her shoulder and be her guide.  Roy mentions that Oliver wasn't there anymore but she was still looking to the qualities that made Oliver a man that put her faith and trust in. 

 

Working with Malcolm would have been a fix but at what cost to them morally, emotionally?  What further compromises might it have led to?  They had to keep fighting and find another way just like she wouldn't let Oliver stop fighting and wouldn't let him give up until he figured out a way to do the impossible. 

 

Her belief now in the Team seemed to have paid off.  They came up with a solution without using Malcolm.  The fight was rough but they won and even better, now Oliver is ALIVE! 

 

Ok, they are all a little bummed that he took so long to show up in person for real, but they stuck around until late in the night except for Laurel who I will be kind and assume went with Ted to the hospital (I assumed she had a spare pantsuit in the van).  So Oliver FINALLY is there and one of the first things out of his mouth wipes away all her faith and belief that she knew him and knew he wouldn't compromise, that he would gladly do the hard thing in order to do the right thing.

 

She thought she lost Oliver in death but now he is alive and it's like she's lost him all over again because he's not who she's been building him up to be.  In teaming with Malcolm, it's like he's given up and on top of all that, still nothing has changed.  All those quiet dreams that even death couldn't chase away were run off by Oliver being a greater disappointment in life than death. 

 

--Still, in real life this is nothing that a few very heartfelt conversations wouldn't fix if he'd only let her know that he had changed and did want things to be different between them.  She didn't quit the team and surely if he had changed his position on if she was a distraction or not, Oliver could find the words to make her understand his desperation and fear even if she still doesn't agree with his choice.  This would be true even if he did stick to his belief that being with her equals making him less able to fight. 

 

As it is now, he still wants to love her, but only from a far and he's seemingly abandoned some very hard fought principles that made him the man that she saw as a hero.  Love is just a word without action for him. Felicity has no reason to think she would fair better than his sister or Thea.    

 

Honestly, I think she's entitled to her opinion (of course) but my problem with Felicity's opinion to Oliver is that it manifests in the most hurtful ways. The reason people are fed up with Felicity in this episode is because their conversation comes off like she's having a tantrum instead of making a heartfelt choice.

 

She chooses to say the most hurtful thing to him in this moment instead of just saying "Look dude, I love you, I see what you're trying to do but fuck it, it's not my bag." instead she always goes for the suckerpunch. She's like "Yeah, you loved this person and this person and this person and look what happened to them...hello? Fuck your love." and that's shitty.

 

Have your opinions and state your opinions (of course) but if you love the dude and you actually don't want him to be dead you might want to state your opinions like you actually don't want him to be dead. People like myself who (once shipped Olicity) and no longer ship Olicity have no time for this shit. State your opinion to your loved one without being an asshole 'cause he just came back from the grave. It's like season 1 Thea all over again. She doesn't have to get with things that she doesn't agree with but she doesn't have to shit all over him either, she can disagree with him without shitting all over him and his life which she hasn't proven to be able to do since the "I Love Yous" happened. 

 

If this whole thing is just to get Felicity over to The Atom like IGN suspects then get on with it already because this angsty 90210 bullshit is the same crap that ruined Brenda and Dylan and Buffy and Angel for me. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[Carrie Ann]

Positive: the way Oliver whispers "it's okay, I'm okay" as he hugs Felicity is KILLING. ME.

 

Also, he apparently keeps a hand on her shoulder until he walks over to the sword, because if you watch it *cough* in slo-mo *cough* you can see his hand slip off as he walks away. Or he just grasps it as he apologizes for not getting in touch earlier. Good with me either way.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Guest]

I think the main problem with that Olicity scene was the timing of it, and the fact that there was no time for anything but a gut-punch. I agree that Felicity was harsh with what she said but I can also see that she was highly emotional. I guess I can forgive her for that. But I do also see Oliver's side. He's doing what he thinks best but he's also not seeing or thinking clearly. I'm on both their sides here. 

 

But yeah. The whole thing would have been better if they had more time to talk things through but alas...

[BkWurm1]

Well if Darth Vader can be redeemed, Angelus, Spike, Klaus Mikaelson (although personally that's a no for me) and any random member of the suicide squad then so can Malcolm Merlyn.  I think that's the point of not being a judge, jury and executioner. There's redemption for all those who seek it no matter what they've done and no matter the horrors they've inflicted on the world, if they truly are serious about being saved

 

Darth made a last minute good choice to save his son (so he is on over Malcolm at this point) and then died.  His ghost was redeemed.  Spike "died" in place of Buffy and in doing so saved the world.  Angle was really pretty, er um, he was just a normal guy that got turned into a monster so a lot of all the evil stuff he did really was more attributable to a horrible mental disease than his personal choices and I don't have a clue who that last dude it, lol.  My point is Malcolm has a long way to go.

 

Also, that part where he goes off about if he'd been able to kill Brick the first time around none of all the terrible things would have happened including Tommy dying...um, that makes no sense.  He thought he'd killed the right man.  It changed nothing.  It led him to do all the horrible things he did.  IF he could have gotten a hold of Dr. Well's timey whimey abilities and gone back and saved his wife, maybe then he'd have been a slightly less horrible human being but otherwise killing Brick would have changed nothing if he'd gotten it right in the past.   

[slayer2]

 

I think it's a matter of opinion whether those characters you listed were redeemed/deserved redemption or not. I don't think Malcom Merlyn has done anything so far to show that he wants to be redeemed. If he did, the first thing he would do is tell Thea exactly what he did to her, not keep lying and trying to convince her that he's being persecuted for no reason.

 

I'm not saying Malcolm does or doesn't want to be redeemed I'm just talking about Oliver. If he's come back a humble man than a humble man knows that everyone deserves to be saved/redeemed. It's a principle that just about every religion is based on, salvation. I'm not speaking to whether or not Merlyn wants to be saved, I don't know diddley about Merlyn. Dude's crazier than a bag of cats in a bubble bath.

 

 

Spike "died" in place of Buffy and in doing so saved the world.

 

 

I'm going to put an addendum on that and say that Spike's salvation came when he got his soul back and Buffy deemed him a man worthy of saving/helping. "He can be a good man Giles." yada yada

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[NoWayOut]

Loved seeing Felicity shooting daggers at Malcolm as she sits atop her iron throne chair. She didn't even bother to stand up for him.

[Slovenly Muse]

I don't want to jump into the Olicity stuff, because Team Felicity always and forever.

 

But can I just back up a bit? What was it Malcolm said when he was about to kill Brick? Did he really say that if he had killed Brick all those years ago, then none of these things would have happened? That... after killing the man he GENUINELY BELIEVED killed his wife, Merlyn went on to make all these EVIL decisions based on EVIL, and now that he finds out he killed the wrong man, he thinks things would have turned out differently if he had killed the RIGHT MAN? Even though he thought he HAD when he made all the decisions that led him to that point? DID I MISS SOMETHING HERE? No, seriously, I've been relying heavily on the Arrow Drinking Game to get me through these episodes. It's very possible I missed something here.

 

(Edit: Or what BkWurm1 said first, and better, and with fewer caps.)

 

And FOR THE LOVE OF GOD won't somebody tell Thea the truth?! I mean, she is smart and capable and actually stands a chance of protecting herself if only someone would clue her in to the situation of which she is directly in the middle! Aaarrrgh! The fact that no one informed her that her brother had DIED trying to save her from the assassins HER FATHER WHO SHE TRUSTS FOR SOME REASON set on her to save his own skin or something is as bad as no one telling Quentin that Sara is dead.

 

Speaking of, TELL QUENTIN!

 

Ugh. This show!

Edited February 5, 2015 by Slovenly Muse

[apinknightmare]

I think the main problem with that Olicity scene was the timing of it, and the fact that there was no time for anything but a gut-punch. I agree that Felicity was harsh with what she said but I can also see that she was highly emotional. I guess I can forgive her for that. But I do also see Oliver's side. He's doing what he thinks best but he's also not seeing or thinking clearly. I'm on both their sides here.

But yeah. The whole thing would have been better if they had more time to talk things through but alas...

Yeah, Felcity was harsh. I have a soft spot for her in that regard because I can be really mean right off the bat when I'm upset, and I often have to take a breather or just not talk to the person I'm mad at for a while just to calm down so I'm not hurtful. If Oliver would've just given her a few minutes!

I understand where they're both coming from: Felicity is being overly idealistic and Oliver's being protective. I could get behind Oliver a bit more if he was also 100% honest with Thea about what Malcolm has done. She might not believe him, but at least he would've tried. And I would believe without a doubt that he was actually serious about protecting her. Oliver has tunnel vision sometimes though, so I guess he can't see the forest for the Ra's.

Edited February 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Artsda]

 

The thing is, they are not lovers. Not in anything but the very loosest possible association of the word.  Even with Oliver telling her he loves her, he has done nothing to act on it.  As far as I could tell, for him, nothing has changed.

Exactly, Oliver tells her he loves her on one hand, but he can't be with her on the other. He doesn't seem to have had an epiphany since returning. His Felicity dreams and her being his last image before "dying" doesn't appear to have really had an affect or changed his mind on anything. His first priority is the city and now trying to be Ra. Which shouldn't even be a priority, just give up Malcolm and let him take the fall since he orchestrated Sara's murder. 

 

Instead he's shaking hands with Malcolm. 

[BkWurm1]

She chooses to say the most hurtful thing to him in this moment instead of just saying "Look dude, I love you, I see what you're trying to do but fuck it, it's not my bag." instead she always goes for the suckerpunch. She's like "Yeah, you loved this person and this person and this person and look what happened to them...hello? Fuck your love." and that's shitty.

 

 

I didn't see it as her saying or blaming Oliver for what happened to Thea or Sara.  She was saying IMO that he can say he loves his sister and loved Sara but his actions aren't saying that.  He's betraying them by working with Malcolm.  That's what she see's and it is tearing her apart. 

 

Have your opinions and state your opinions (of course) but if you love the dude and you actually don't want him to be dead you might want to state your opinions like you actually don't want him to be dead. People like myself who (once shipped Olicity) and no longer ship Olicity have no time for this shit. State your opinion to your loved one without being an asshole 'cause he just came back from the grave.

 

She'd probably have a much easier time being more pragmatic and reserved on the subject had he not just come back from the grave.  All those emotions are already bubbling around.  Add the stress of the Glade battle - to decide things one way or the other - I was getting a real to the death vibe in that line - well, Roy and Laurel and perhaps Dig, perhaps Felicity depending on the safety of the van.  She probably could have mowed a few people down in a pinch. 

 

Anyway, just saying that everyone was already super emotional and notice that she did try not to lay into him.  She walked away.  He chased her down and that's when her cork popped.  I don't hold it against him, he wanted to talk more but then he also runs the risk of hearing something he's not going to like. 

 

 

If this whole thing is just to get Felicity over to The Atom like IGN suspects then get on with it already because this angsty 90210 bullshit is the same crap that ruined Brenda and Dylan and Buffy and Angel for me.

 

I honestly think that the show runners would not consider staring up a romance on another show and THEN moving it to it's own show.  At least not on the CW.  They are going to want to start from the beginning so by that logic alone Felicity is not going anywhere. 

[slayer2]

Yeah, Felcity was harsh. I have a soft spot for her in that regard because I can be really mean right off the bat when I'm upset, and I often have to take a breather or just not talk to the person I'm mad at for a while just to calm down so I'm not hurtful. If Oliver would've just given her a few minutes!

I understand where they're both coming from: Felicity is being overly idealistic and Oliver's being protective. I could get behind Oliver a bit more if he was also 100% honest with Thea about what Malcolm has done. She might not believe him, but at least he would've tried. And I would believe without a doubt that he was actually serious about protecting her. Oliver has tunnel vision sometimes though, so I guess he can't see the forest for the Ra's.

 

Oliver NEEDS to be honest with Thea. The fact that he hasn't told her yet is fucking crazy! In fact that all of them haven't told her and they just go about their daily lives with all these lies like it's normal, it's freaky how well they all do it. Whether lying to Papa Cop, Thea, Sin or whomever it just rolls off their tongues. There must be some sort of disorder there, perhaps it's a drug in the Starling City water supply.

 

 

I didn't see it as her saying or blaming Oliver for what happened to Thea or Sara.  She was saying IMO that he can say he loves his sister and loved Sara but his actions aren't saying that.  He's betraying them by working with Malcolm.  That's what she see's and it is tearing her apart.

 

 

Yes but the problem is she doesn't say it that way. Maybe it's in EBR's line reading but it just came off as super-bitchy. If you're invested in the character or the person then you can say that she meant it this way or that way but when you've just come back from the dead (again) and you're trying to do right by the only family member you have left in a fucked up situation that someone else put you in (again) and the woman you love who knows you love her says that kind of cruel shit to you it doesn't elucidate anything. Guys are dense at the best of times, Felicity could have accomplished what she wanted to accomplish without being an asshole about it. In the first season she stepped away from Team Arrow without being an asshole and still imparting the respect that she has for him. She may not understand his choice but she's not in his shoes, and she doesn't give a rat's patooey about his sister (nor does Diggle IMO) so the shoes are even less impressive to her. I maintain that no matter what's tearing her apart there is no need for her to go down a road that erodes his self-respect and makes him hate himself (any more than he already does) when she doesn't get her way.  

 

Somebody mentioned that Diggle would be more likely to understand the bigger picture because he was a soldier and he knows that you can't make decisions from an armchair. I agree. It's all well and good for her to have her "moral highground" but she's not the one out there (physically) fighting which we got to see with Roy and Laurel tonight is in fact scary, and with respect to that non-scariness she might try to be a little less horrid and judgy in her grand indictments of Oliver Queen.

 

I've seen nothing in her behaviour (this season) that indicates that she loves him, rather I see a woman with the same hero crush that Lois Lane had on Superman (pre-Clark Kent knowledge). She "loves" him insofar as he can do the things that impress her and stand up for what's good but much like that Marilyn Monroe quote when he starts acting contrary to what she expected or wanted then she puts the toy away until it "behaves". What they've got going on is not a love story, I don't know what it is but it ain't love.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[Guest]

Yeah, Felcity was harsh. I have a soft spot for her in that regard because I can be really mean right off the bat when I'm upset, and I often have to take a breather or just not talk to the person I'm mad at for a while just to calm down so I'm not hurtful. If Oliver would've just given her a few minutes!

I understand where they're both coming from: Felicity is being overly idealistic and Oliver's being protective. I could get behind Oliver a bit more if he was also 100% honest with Thea about what Malcolm has done. She might not believe him, but at least he would've tried. And I would believe without a doubt that he was actually serious about protecting her. Oliver has tunnel vision sometimes though, so I guess he can't see the forest for the Ra's.

 

She was very harsh. She was mean and that had to hurt him. Clearly it did. He had tears in his eyes! But this was coming on the heels of an emotional time. For a month she thought he was dead and then suddenly he's not and they're hugging and she feels like she's getting everything she's fantasized about, only for Oliver to shut that down instantly. I totally see why she went outside to clear her head. I'm not sure if the outcome of their conversation would have been different if he had left her alone and they had it at another time, but I feel like she maybe wouldn't have been so heated and hurtful. To me this was all heat of the moment reaction and people do that. It's human to lash out. 

 

And I also see Oliver's side. He knows how deadly Ra's is now and he's almost panicking at the thought of him coming after his sister. He wants to protect her and so he's doing a deal with the devil. It's stupid and makes no sense but that's Oliver's logic and he's also making choices and decisions at an emotional time. He was on the brink of death, he's tired. He's been away from his loved ones. He's not thinking straight. I get it.

 

I don't know. I guess I'm just relieved that it happened this way. For all the scenarios I imagined, this was the best I could hope for because the angst is character driven and I'm on both sides. I was worried that I would be furious at Felicity for that dumb line of dialogue but it makes sense to me. I can't hate on someone for a very human and layered reaction.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Guest

[steelyis]

So we're back to being dumb, are we, Arrow? Because that was without a doubt one of the dumbest episodes of Arrow I’ve had the displeasure to watch. Poorly written, badly directed, and even worse plotting.

 

I honestly don't know what they're trying to accomplish, but if its rehabilitating Malcolm? Nope. Nope. Nooope. It's not going to work, and I say this as a fan of Malcolm.

 

I'm done with Laurel, too. I was willing to give her Canary a chance, but she cannot carry the weight. She swings her baton like she's whacking a piñata. She has no skill, no grace, and no technique. Sin was doing just as well with next to no training. It was fucking embarrassing. Now Laurel thinks it's okay to work beside the man who arranged for her sister to be killed? What? I'm starting to think she's glad Sara died and doesn't actually hate Malcolm because he made all her dreams come true.

 

Shut up, Roy!

 

Shut up, Thea!

 

Thank god for Sin.

 

Can Felicity and Dig break away and do their own thing? They seem to be the only smart members of Team Arrow at the moment.

 

I just cannot with this show right now.

[BkWurm1]

I don't know. I guess I'm just relieved that it happened this way. For all the scenarios I imagined, this was the best I could hope for because the angst is character driven and I'm on both sides. I was worried that I would be furious at Felicity for that dumb line of dialogue but it makes sense to me. I can't hate on someone for a very human and layered reaction.

 

 

So much this.  It could have been so much worse.  It also could have been so much better but I'll mark this one as a win.  Of course like Oliver's last overreaction (Not noticing a bug on his costume equals can't be with the woman he loves) I still need Oliver to come to some realizations but I can understand both of their positions. 

[Orion]

I really did not see that as mean, at all. I could point to the pilot as having dialogue that was mean to the returning dead person. felicity has every right to say enough.

IMO she wasn't harsh enough. This guy has yanked her up and down emotional mountains all season, he wants to date her, oops never mind,this is his mission and she/digg have no say, don't ask me to say I don't love you, this life only ends one way, choosing death over her,you know how I feel about her, do whatever you want- in regards to going out with Palmer, I have to be alone speech to Cupid, the topper I love you as he goes off to sacrifice himself to an assassin and finishing off coming back with the most idiotic plan ever - team up MM.

Felicity is not just hurt she's crushed to see the man she at least cares for deeply turn his back on all principals Ta has fought to establish over two years and destroy the moral code that she clung to desperately in his honor despite opposition from everyone in the Arrowcave. It's the death of the quiet dreams she was keeping to herself and profound disappointment in his choice. Not to even mention how painful having that be his first words to her.... Not harsh enough.

I see Oliver's pov but it's so wrapped up in the writers beyond dumb story I'm giving Oliver a pass this week.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-eBcKtX4YU

[Xenith22]

Now Laurel thinks it's okay to work beside the man who arranged for her sister to be killed? What? I'm starting to think she's glad Sara died and doesn't actually hate Malcolm because he made all her dreams come true.

I'm pretty sure she has not been told the truth yet?  Shocking as that may be that someone on this show would be kept in the dark about something.  To be fair they only found out right when Oliver rushed off to his own potential demise...so she may not have been in the best frame of mind, and the team had other things to worry about than trying to stop her from getting herself killed by Malcolm when she went after him again.

 

And FOR THE LOVE OF GOD won't somebody tell Thea the truth?! I mean, she is smart and capable and actually stands a chance of protecting herself if only someone would clue her in to the situation of which she is directly in the middle! Aaarrrgh! The fact that no one informed her that her brother had DIED trying to save her from the assassins HER FATHER WHO SHE TRUSTS FOR SOME REASON set on her to save his own skin or something is as bad as no one telling Quentin that Sara is dead.

It's not quite that simple sure Malcolm brainwashed her, but it was still her that killed Sara, someone she knew personally.  That's still something major to deal with.  I mean even Roy was haunted by killing an nameless cop when he was not himself under the influence of a drug he did not ask to be injected with.  On top of that unlike Roy, Thea would legitimately carry some measure of guilt as the only way Malcolm was able to brainwash her was because she allowed herself to trust him.  So I can understand their thinking in not wanting to burden her with this guilt for the rest of her life if they did not have to.  Ideally they would be working on some other way to show her what a dirtbag Malcolm actually still is to get her away from him...

[Starfish35]

Now Laurel thinks it's okay to work beside the man who arranged for her sister to be killed? What? I'm starting to think she's glad Sara died and doesn't actually hate Malcolm because he made all her dreams come true.

I am usually the last person to speak up in defense of Laurel Lance, but this I think she is not guilty of. To the best of my knowledge Team Arrow has not yet seen fit to enlighten her of Malcolm's involvement in Sara's death.

ETA: Already answered. :)

Edited February 5, 2015 by Starfish35

[Actionmage]

Speaking of, TELL QUENTIN!

 

In case the drinking game got you distracted, Sin told Quentin just tonight. So yay? At least he knows now.

 

Is it me or is the lighting since the premiere been dark all season? With the exception of  "Corto Maltese", it's sometimes hard to follow the action at times. Like when Ted was fighting Brick.

 

Ted seemed to be the only character who was ever able to actually bloody Brick in The Big Fight. Then Brick gets the upper hand and pummels Ted into closing his eyes. Just as Brick is about to shoot Ted, Roy shoots an arrow and annoys Brick enough to go after Roy. When Laurel bends down and unmasks Ted in the street, he doesn't respond to her.  Were we supposed to tell if he was dead or not? If so, big fail! 

 

If he's not, then why not a visual of Laurel by him as Ollie is giving his "Never Leave Again" speech, with Laurel looking up and over to Oliver? Hell, even if Ted Grant died, why nothing relatively quick and non-verbal like that? Paint a vehicle white, use the bed from the foundry, get some gauze and red makeup. Boom.  Or is that unrealistic? They have to save cash so we can have Ollie fly away over everyone's head or Malcolm's wig? *sigh*

 

New Christmas Wishlist: For Arrow-- More writing clarity and a bigger lighting budget.

[steelyis]

I'm pretty sure she has not been told the truth yet?  Shocking as that may be that someone on this show would be kept in the dark about something.  To be fair they only found out right when Oliver rushed off to his own potential demise...so she may not have been in the best frame of mind, and the team had other things to worry about than trying to stop her from getting herself killed by Malcolm when she went after him again.

 

 

 

I am usually the last person to speak up in defense of Laurel Lance, but this I think she is not guilty of. To the best of my knowledge Team Arrow has not yet seen fit to enlighten her of Malcolm's involvement in Sara's death.

ETA: Already answered. :)

 

 

It doesn't surprise me they didn't tell Laurel. Now I have to feel bad about Laurel not knowing she's advocating working with the man who effectively killed her sister. Wonderful.

 

What is with this show having its characters keep secrets like that? It makes everybody look shit.

Edited February 5, 2015 by steelyis

[El Seed]

In case the drinking game got you distracted, Sin told Quentin just tonight. So yay? At least he knows now.

 

 

Well, he now knows that the person dressing as the Canary isn't Sara, but he doesn't know that Sara's dead. He could make that deduction on his own, though.

 

I really did not see that as mean, at all. I could point to the pilot as having dialogue that was mean to the returning dead person. felicity has every right to say enough.

IMO she wasn't harsh enough. This guy has yanked her up and down emotional mountains all season, he wants to date her, oops never mind,this is his mission and she/digg have no say, don't ask me to say I don't love you, this life only ends one way, choosing death over her,you know how I feel about her, do whatever you want- in regards to going out with Palmer, I have to be alone speech to Cupid, the topper I love you as he goes off to sacrifice himself to an assassin and finishing off coming back with the most idiotic plan ever - team up MM.

Felicity is not just hurt she's crushed to see the man she at least cares for deeply turn his back on all principals Ta has fought to establish over two years and destroy the moral code that she clung to desperately in his honor despite opposition from everyone in the Arrowcave. It's the death of the quiet dreams she was keeping to herself and profound disappointment in his choice. Not to even mention how painful having that be his first words to her.... Not harsh enough.

I see Oliver's pov but it's so wrapped up in the writers beyond dumb story I'm giving Oliver a pass this week.

 

This. All of this. I can see both of their sides, but Oliver wouldn't have received those hurtful words in the alley if he hadn't decided to proverbially poke the bear and followed her. I don't know what he was expecting, but a blind man could see not giving Felicity space was a Bad Idea.

[Slovenly Muse]

 

It's not quite that simple sure Malcolm brainwashed her, but it was still her that killed Sara, someone she knew personally.  That's still something major to deal with.  I mean even Roy was haunted by killing an nameless cop when he was not himself under the influence of a drug he did not ask to be injected with.  On top of that unlike Roy, Thea would legitimately carry some measure of guilt as the only way Malcolm was able to brainwash her was because she allowed herself to trust him.  So I can understand their thinking in not wanting to burden her with this guilt for the rest of her life if they did not have to.  Ideally they would be working on some other way to show her what a dirtbag Malcolm actually still is to get her away from him...

 

Ugh. Don't remind me of THAT plotline. Roy is so upset at the thought that he might have killed Sara that he is ready to turn himself in for her murder... then he finds out it was just a cop he killed, so he forgets about turning himself in and just gets over it. But about Thea! Yes, it would be terrible for her to have to deal with what Malcolm did to her, but here's the thing: HE DID IT TO HER. And there was nothing stopping him from doing it again, since Oliver was "dead" and there was no one else watching out for her. The only way for her to protect herself is to know where the danger comes from. Oliver can't watch her every minute, and he can't know if she is still being chemically manipulated into continuing this whole daddy-daughter bonding thing. She's dealt with a lot of shit, and a good portion of that has been FROM people trying to protect her by not telling her information that she needs to know! Continuing the very behaviour that has hurt her and pushed her away in the past is not going to mend fences, and it's not showing her any kindness. As has always been the case with Thea, she CAN handle the truth, it's all the blatant lying from people who claim to love her that has totally eroded her ability to know who to trust and driven her into danger!

 

 

Speaking of, TELL QUENTIN!

    

In case the drinking game got you distracted, Sin told Quentin just tonight. So yay? At least he knows now.

 

But she didn't really, did she? She told him that the Canary is "not Sara." That's not the same as confirming for him that his daughter is dead. In fact, it's worse, because now he has to deal with the uncertainty, of wondering what happened to Sara and why she's not here and if she's alive or dead, and who is responsible, and dealing with his suspicion of the people around him who have been lying to him about her, and what they know, and why they're not telling him (not to mention processing that gargantuan betrayal), while ALSO dealing with his grief for Sara all on his own when he inevitably figures it all out for himself the hard way, when EVERYONE ELSE has known for ages and kept it from him for no good reason. How can that possibly be better for his heart than hearing the truth in a safe place from someone he trusts? It's not too late to stop the madness! TELL QUENTIN!

[Actionmage]

Well, he now knows that the person dressing as the Canary isn't Sara,...

----

She told him that the Canary is "not Sara." That's not the same as confirming for him that his daughter is dead. In fact, it's worse, because now he has to deal with the uncertainty, of wondering what happened to Sara and why she's not here and if she's alive or dead,

 

I understand and acknowledge; it is worse. It's just that this story has felt like it has been dragged out for over a year. It just won't stop (to date, anyway.) I think I was just glad to have someone tell a Truth to Quentin about The Woman Running Around As Canary.

[InsertWordHere]

Sin told Quentin whoever was wearing the suit was "not your daughter" or something to that effect because we're probably supposed to find it hilarious that it actually is his daughter, just not the one he thought.   

[Slovenly Muse]

Yep, I totally feel you, Actionmage. While it sucks that Quentin is having to go through this because the people who should be honest with him are not, it is nice to FINALLY have some movement on this! At this point, I think he should adopt Sin as his replacement daughter, say "Screw you guys" to all of Starling and hop the next plane to Corto Maltese.

[Password]

Oooh I can't wait to watch this episode to form my own opinion!!!!

I will say oneyl thing though. Oliver hadn't learnt from last year about keeping secrets from Thea. I love the line she used when she spoke to her mum and Oliver in the limo "You keep secrets to protect me, but it's the secrets that hurt me" or some such.

Oh Oliver.

[BkWurm1]

I didn't see it as her saying or blaming Oliver for what happened to Thea or Sara.  She was saying IMO that he can say he loves his sister and loved Sara but his actions aren't saying that.  He's betraying them by working with Malcolm.  That's what she see's and it is tearing her apart.

 

 

 

Yes but the problem is she doesn't say it that way. Maybe it's in EBR's line reading but it just came off as super-bitchy. If you're invested in the character or the person then you can say that she meant it this way or that way but when you've just come back from the dead (again) and you're trying to do right by the only family member you have left in a fucked up situation that someone else put you in (again) and the woman you love who knows you love her says that kind of cruel shit to you it doesn't elucidate anything. Guys are dense at the best of times, Felicity could have accomplished what she wanted to accomplish without being an asshole about it.

 

 

You said the problem was she didn't say "it" like that.  I'm not sure if you are referring to her feeling that Oliver was betraying his sister and Sara or that him doing so was tearing her apart.  If it is the first thing, then she specifically asks him if why he is sorry is because he is "abandoning every principle you claim to have by getting into bed with Malcolm Merlyn"  So I think that part is fairly straight forward, that she isn't mad about him not protecting Thea or Sara, but disillusioned that he is betraying them. 

 

The other thing, about it tearing her apart, well I guess MMV but  I thought it was clear that she was barely holding herself together and was fighting down a lump in her throat the whole time.  That no she did with just a look, a gesture and a tone I can't put into words was a great combo of hell no and if you touch me I'll burst into tears.

 

It just kills me when she mentions the last thing he said to her was that he loved her and Oliver has this guilt just fall over his face.  He drops his eyes and looks everywhere but at her and when she's listing how he's treating Sara and Thea he can't make himself look straight at her, he has this slightly unfocused gaze over her shoulder, like he can't face what she's saying but knows it's what he's doing.  Ugh. 

 

During the hug in the lair she was in tears and was still practically wiping them off when he said made his announcement.  Then out in the alley she's still visibly emotional and upset.  She has her eyes closed, she'd tense and trying to breath.  Her voice during "I don't want to talk" is vibrating with her near trying not to cry voice.  She tries to pull it together and anger helped strengthen her voice a little but it's back to ending with a quaver in it when she say's Malcolm's name.  During her speech about letting herself fantasize he was alive and would come back thinking differently her voice goes up in pitch, back to her holding back tears voice we've come to know way too well this year.  And then when she mentions Sara, her whole face just about crumples and again, she's nearly in tears.  

 

Then when she tells him "I don't want to be a woman you love." she's not shouting at him, she's not raising her voice, she doesn't have a snarky tone and she can barely get the last two words out.  I found what she said really rough, but she delivered the line IMO almost with no emotion - not the cold voice raked with anger - but IMO the kind that is just speaking straight forward to what she is feeling. 

 

.

I maintain that no matter what's tearing her apart there is no need for her to go down a road that erodes his self-respect and makes him hate himself (any more than he already does) when she doesn't get her way. 

 

I maintain that if he wanted the sanitized version, he should have waited until she felt she could talk, that or he should have talked a hell of a lot faster rather than putting on a smile and thinking he could just touch her and magically make everything ok. 

 

Somebody mentioned that Diggle would be more likely to understand the bigger picture because he was a soldier and he knows that you can't make decisions from an armchair. I agree. It's all well and good for her to have her "moral highground" but she's not the one out there (physically) fighting which we got to see with Roy and Laurel tonight is in fact scary, and with respect to that non-scariness she might try to be a little less horrid and judgy in her grand indictments of Oliver Queen.

 

 

I don't understand.  Diggle shares the same opinion that Felicity has.  We just heard it earlier in the episode.  He just was silent down in the lair with Oliver.  Doesn't mean he's changed his opinion. 

 

I've seen nothing in her behaviour (this season) that indicates that she loves him, rather I see a woman with the same hero crush that Lois Lane had on Superman (pre-Clark Kent knowledge). She "loves" him insofar as he can do the things that impress her and stand up for what's good but much like that Marilyn Monroe quote when he starts acting contrary to what she expected or wanted then she puts the toy away until it "behaves". What they've got going on is not a love story, I don't know what it is but it ain't love.

 

If she didn't love him so much she couldn't be this disappointed in him.  Right now I see her as extremely upset and disillusioned, not that she doesn't care.  She thinks he's abandoning his every hard fought principle.  That's something worth speaking up about.  I would find her love a shallow thing if she never expected him to do what is right.  And it's not that she's trying to impose her standards on him, she's crushed that he won't uphold his own. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by BkWurm1

[loki567]

Yeah, this episode was hot garbage. I hate the phrase jump the shark, but it feels like this is the episode where the fanbase will look back and say, "that's when Arrow really started to suck."

 

I know Barrowman has a fanbase, but it's getting ridiculous to the lengths they're going to keep him around. I know the complaints about killing Sara off to let Laurel take over the Canary role, but now I'm almost wondering it was more towards figuring out a way to get Malcolm involved in the season.

 

And I'm going to raise the possibility that the reason there was zero focus on Laurel working with the man who killed her sister? The writers just looked at the storyline through Oliver's PoV and completely overlooked the implications it had towards Laurel. And I know you would say how could they be that oblivious?, but these are the same writers who overlooked Sara being put in a refrigerator or the slimy situation with Lance being completely tricked about Sara's death, basically they really overlook characters' emotions or motivations in order to move forward with the story as quickly as possible. The only reason that Felicity made a fuss about it was so they could have teh drama between her and Oliver. Otherwise she'd probably be all, "I know Malcom killed over five hundred people, but he does recycle so I think we should trust him." 

 

The writers are hacks is what I'm getting at. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by loki567

[lion10]

Oliver and Felicity hugging was everything and my shipper heart soared.  ...And then Felicity read Oliver the riot act AND OLIVER'S FACE.  So now I'm sad and pissed off at the writers for having Oliver make such a stupid decision to partner with Merlyn.  The guy's a snake.  Tell Thea the truth.  Tell Quentin the truth.  Let the beat downs/heart attacks commence.

[looptab]

A couple things that bugged me:

1- So, does Thea know that Roy knows about her being involved with Malcolm? 

2- Does Quentin know that Sin knew the woman in black was Sara? Otherwise he just outed his (now deceased) daughter' secret identity, NBD. He just wanted to brag a little, maybe.

See, this is what bothers me with the writers insisting with the Lying Game. They can't even keep track of who knows what.

 

Apparently that electronic store ad board has been on for 20 years, as it's seen in flashback and in the scene with Malcolm, Brick, and Oliver. LOL

 

Best moment: Quentin/Roy+voice modulator.

 

I hate Laurel with the team.

 

So, to get this straight: the team was out in the streets, they see Oliver is back and decide he can handle things on his own and just go back to the Foundry to watch him on TV? Except for Laurel, obviously.(But I appreciated she wasn't there for the reunion).

 

I liked the final scene. I get where they're both coming from. Yes, Oliver is being stupid, but he did say he'd do whatever it takes to save his sister. And Maseo at the moment is unavailable to him, he went back to the League. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by looptab

[tv echo]

The only good thing I can say about that O/F reunion scene is that at least Felicity got to hug Oliver first.  I mean, at least she just didn't react to his return from the dead by angrily throwing glassware.

Edited February 5, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Ugh - MG's responses to and clarifications about this episode (well, glad someone's happy).  He also posted a lot of fan comments praising this episode on Tumblr, but I'm not going to bother putting those here...

Marc Guggenheim @mguggenheim  ·  7h 7 hours ago
Dear Internet, I've been reading responses to tonight's Arrow and I just want to say that you're awesome.  Love, Marc

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim

cherryalamode asked:
Marc! Lemme get this straight: Felicity feels that, despite loving Thea and Sara, Oliver's decision to work with Malcolm Merlyn shows that Oliver chose the Arrow again (hello there, identity theme!). Is that a good interpretation of that scene?

Very good interpretation.

olicityislove asked:
So the Olicity tonight was beautiful (angsty as hell, but beautiful) so thanks for that. I'm just wondering if you could clear something up for me though. My cousin and I had a long conversation trying to figure out why Diggle is sitting at the com. I drank the kool aide. I'm on board and putting my faith in you and the show, but this just confuses me. The man did 3 tours in a war and people are dying. This aspect of the show is very hard for me to believe. I really love Arrow, so thank you.

You’re right.  It’s something we’ve been struggling with this year.  More Dig in the field soon, I promise.

rosemariedavis asked:
Thank you for showing us another side of Malcolm Merlyn. There's a story behind every villain.

We always say that every villain is the hero of their own story.

swagzayns asked:

Okay so what was the line that Laurel tells Felicity (about olicity) that was cut

I’m too lazy to look up the script, but from memory, it was something along the lines of:  After Laurel makes the comment about Oliver hiding by being the Arrow, she says, “Everyone can see that.  Especially Felicity.”  Or something along those lines.

splitsunshine asked:

I feel like the quote "Cool motive. It's still murder." is the perfect example for Malcolm this episode. I thought it was impossible, but somehow this episode made me hate him more. Felicity and Diggle were the only ones making sense. How could they all just say he wants the best for the Glades??!? HE IS A MANIPULATIVE PSYCHOPATH I DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT ROY/LAUREL/THEA/OLIVER ARE THINKING.

Yeah, we’re not bending over backwards to get you to like Malcolm.

ya-boy-ben10 asked:

That scene, Marc how could you? Was it really necessary? And when Tatsu say to battle Ra's Al Gul he lose something precious to him was it referring to him losing Felicity with the choice he made.

It wasn’t a coincidence.

ninjawithwifi asked:

Okay, real talk tho. What do you think Tommy's reaction would be to Oliver deciding to team up and work with Malcolm?

"WTF, dude?!"

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited February 5, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

I liked the final scene. I get where they're both coming from. Yes, Oliver is being stupid, but he did say he'd do whatever it takes to save his sister.

 

*except, apparently tell her that Malcolm's drugged her and manipulated her. Here's hoping that comes out at some point soon.

Edited February 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

*except, apparently tell her that Malcolm's drugged her and manipulated her. Here's hoping that comes out at some point soon.

Yeah, I don't disagree. He should tell her. But I guess at the moment he is focusing on the man who threw him off a cliff, and doing what he perceives is everything he can to avoid the same happening to Thea.

 

 

I’m too lazy to look up the script, but from memory, it was something along the lines of:  After Laurel makes the comment about Oliver hiding by being the Arrow, she says, “Everyone can see that.  Especially Felicity.”  Or something along those lines.

Lol, wasn't the cut line from next episode? I'm pretty sure this didn't happen in this one.

Edited February 5, 2015 by looptab

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I laughed when Malcolm told Thea he didn't kill Brick and she said, "For me?" like a five year old. I also found it hilarious that Oliver made such a huge argument for Malcolm not killing Brick. As Malcolm pointed out, he has killed lots of people so what's one more? Was this the one that would turn his soul black? Sorry, that train has already left the station. At least this time he wasn't killing a bunch of innocent people. He was going to kill a murdering murderer who murders people and has been terrorizing the Glades. Somehow it's wrong for Malcolm to kill Brick but it's okay for Oliver to want to kill Ra's. Killing is only good if Oliver says it's okay!

 

One of my favourite episodes of Buffy has always been season 3 episode 1 when they removed her from the rest of the gang and placed her in LA as a waitress and she had to kind of fight her way back emotionally and the Scooby gang had to try to slay without her. I just love seeing how a show evolves without the lead, how chemistry's shift and who takes the leadership role. I think they placed it perfectly with Diggle being the deciding factor and ultimately the one whom everyone looks to to make the final decisions. There is something very exciting about watching people who aren't superhuman (I definitely consider Ollie and Sara to be superhuman in their training skills and disappearing tricks) do the best they can to stand up for what they believe in

These last few episodes reminded me both of S3 when Buffy was waitressing and S6 when Buffy was dead and the Scoobies were left to carry on without her as best they could, continuing to fight the vampires and other bad guys. Oliver's brief scenes after returning to Starling City reminded me of how exhausted and depressed Buffy was after she came back to life in S6.

 

I hope Slade put secret cameras in the lair as well and is just sitting in his cell rolling his eyes at these shenanigans. (I bet Oliver left him with an iPad for entertainment.)

Ha, I would love to watch Slade just sitting on his bed laughing at all this nonsense. Or, you know, playing Words with Friends on his iPad.

 

Since Oliver didn't go by the batcave to get suited up before his comeback appearance in the Glades, where did he have his extra costume stashed so that he could put it on before making his rousing car top speech?

 

I am so glad that Laurel wasn't downstairs when Oliver went to see everyone. It was nice seeing him reunite with the core team.

[mccartygirl]

Can someone tell me why we don't have enough Diggle and have way too much Laurel? 

[tv echo]

Having survived a near death experience, Oliver seems to have stepped away from the light and toward the dark.  He now seems willing to embrace the philosophy that the end justify the means.  This is the philosophy that was adopted by Malcolm Merlyn that led to him turning evil.  This is the philosophy that was rejected by both Diggle, the voice of wisdom, and Felicity, the voice of morality.  (I'm just gonna chalk up recent involvement in Laurel's deception of her father as temporary insanity due to a grief-fueled desire not to see anyone else die.)

 

Diggle: "Once we let the end justify the means, that's just the first step."
Malcolm: "Towards what?"
Diggle: "Becoming you."

 

In his zeal to protect Thea, could Oliver be embarking on an SW Anakin Skywalker-type journey to the Dark Side?

 

Has killing so many people made Oliver so desensitized to death that he can just dismiss the murder of Sara and countless others when it's more convenient for him to do so?  In that AssignmentX interview, MG did say that

in future episodes, they'll be dealing with the consequences for Oliver's soul of killing someone, even if you're doing so in the guise of being a hero.

 Did we even ever see Oliver mourn Sara's death?

Edited February 5, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

Since Oliver didn't go by the batcave to get suited up before his comeback appearance in the Glades, where did he have his extra costume stashed so that he could put it on before making his rousing car top speech?

 

I am so glad that Laurel wasn't downstairs when Oliver went to see everyone. It was nice seeing him reunite with the core team.

 

I think what was supposed to have happened was he went to the foundry to suit up while everyone was in the van (MG said as much on Tumblr). What doesn't quite make sense to me is that his costume was back on the dummy when he went to say hello to everyone, so at what point could it have gotten there? Did everyone leave again at some point and then come back? Show....

 

And yeah, I'm glad Laurel made herself scarce. Did Oliver see her out on the street? Either way, her being down there probably would've led to some questions that she probably didn't want to answer, haha. 

[looptab]

Other couple things that didn't make much sense (in a sea of nonsense, but whatever):

- They've been keeping the sword on the table this whole time? Morbid. Or maybe they put it on display to show it to Oliver? Double morbid.

- I love how Thea suggested Malcolm to go to the police after he found out Brick killed his wife. Hello, wasn't he dead? (and responsible of a mass murder, but that's a little detail)? LOL 

[Morrigan2575]

I have not watched but just one comment on the whole Malcolm training Oliver to beat Ra's.

 

Malcolm is afraid of Ra's and seems to know he can't win against him.  Oliver defeated Malcolm in 123 (and yes I know all the excuses) but this is where it gets really fun, Oliver easily defeated Al Awal in 205, the guy who trained Malcolm Merlyn.  Not only did Oliver defeat The First but so did Sara.  Oliver also defeated Nyssa in 213, another person who was trained by Ra's...  

 

So logically, Oliver is already a better fighter than Malcolm...so maybe instead of getting training from Malcolm, Oliver should have asked Maseo or Tatsuo to train him?  Tatsuo is certainly very well trained in sword fighting.  Hell, why not ask Slade to train him...LOL

Edited February 5, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

So logically, Oliver is already a better fighter than Malcolm...so maybe instead of getting training from Malcolm, Oliver should have asked Maseo or Tatsuo to train him?  Tatsuo is certainly very well trained in sword fighting.  Hell, why not ask Slade to train him...LOL

 

He did ask Tatsu to train him, and she told him his only hope was Maseo (only the student can defeat the teacher or some such nonsense). But by that point Maseo had returned back to the League. 

[Morrigan2575]

He did ask Tatsu to train him, and she told him his only hope was Maseo (only the student can defeat the teacher or some such nonsense). But by that point Maseo had returned back to the League. 

OK, well at least they did do something smart in that regards.  I still think only the student can defeat that master is kind of BS just to get to the Malcolm trains Oliver plot. However, it does ignore the fact that Oliver has already defeated the person who trained Malcolm, which was Al-Awal, not Ra's Al Ghul, guess they forgot?

[bethy]

All the "only the student can defeat the master" stuff actually has me thinking about Thea and Malcolm. We've seen a LOT of their training this season. Maybe were headed for Thea taking on Merlyn and winning at some point.

[apinknightmare]

All the "only the student can defeat the master" stuff actually has me thinking about Thea and Malcolm. We've seen a LOT of their training this season. Maybe were headed for Thea taking on Merlyn and winning at some point.

 

That's what I'm hoping for. This student defeats the teacher BS doesn't even make sense in this context - Ra's didn't train Malcolm. Unless it's amounting to Oliver and Thea taking down Malcolm.

[Primetimer]

Practically the entire cast of Arrow is made up of masked vigilantes at this point. It's a shame they all still need Oliver to tell them what to do.

Read the story

[shrewd.buddha]

Gah. This show. Merlin kills and kills and kills .. left, right, and center..  But when he gets the chance to kill the Brick - someone he actually has a personal reason to kill  ... he just talks and talks and talks some more..

 

These shows do this  all the time. The red shirts and unknowns are killed with hardly a thought, sorta making murder seem ordinary and casual.
But when a 'named' character, big baddie, or supporting character is in the line of fire, everyone takes a moment to think about the ramifications. WtF?!

[Shanna]

Loved seeing Felicity shooting daggers at Malcolm as she sits atop her iron throne chair. She didn't even bother to stand up for him.

That was grand.

I'm not going to get into who can and can't be redeemed, but you have to actually want to change and take actions to prove it. If Malcolm gave a damn about it he would tell Thea the truth and head off to Ra's to make amends and save the city or Oliver or Thea. But the last time he spoke to Oliver he was threatening Thea to get what he wants. Oliver doesn't think Malcolm is redeemable he want to use him to learn enough to defeat Ra's. Alternately, and I would prefer this, he wants to guilt trip him into taking responsibility. The problem with both of these scenarios is that Malcolm is BSC and can't be trusted for anything. As he has proven over and over again. He should be in jail. Or dead.

[blixie]

UGH I just lost a very long impassioned post, but whatever, it boils down to I think Ra's created Malcolm and IS therefore the bigger (or at least as bad as) bad, I think Oliver IS playing Malcolm, I think that will fail, I ain't mad at Felicity, and I'm still hoping Zombie Tommy will factor in the big finale.

[Chaser]

How many problems would be solved if Oliver went to Team Arrow before speaking to Malcolm? Even if Oliver chooses to work with Malcolm over the objections, it would have allowed an actual conversation about it. Felicity could still leave angry, Oliver could still chase her down but it would have flowed so much better. If this was S2, I bet that's how it would have happened.

[quarks]

 

Is it me or is the lighting since the premiere been dark all season? With the exception of  "Corto Maltese", it's sometimes hard to follow the action at times. Like when Ted was fighting Brick.

 

[cut]

 

New Christmas Wishlist: For Arrow-- More writing clarity and a bigger lighting budget.

 

 

It's not you, but the basic problem isn't the lighting budget: it's that Arrow and Flash are sharing sets and don't apparently have the time/budget to move that many props around, so with a couple of exceptions they're working with filters, lighting and camera angles to try to hide what they are doing - like using Flash's police station set for one scene in this episode, hiding it with an orange filter and a camera tilt, and the case a couple of weeks ago where both shows used the same car lot, just filming from a different camera angle, which would have worked better if they hadn't been also using the same cars.

 

In the case of the Ted versus Brick fight, the problem seems to have been that they had that street lot for only one night of filming, which had to accommodate a lot, even with moving the Malcolm/Brick/Oliver confrontation to a separate soundstage, hidden as a back alley scene. I don't think they were able to do that many takes for any of the scenes, thus the dark filming and one of the major sound looping issues of this episode.

 

I'm really not sure how long these shows can continue to pull this off.  On the one hand, I'm genuinely impressed (not being snarky) at how well both shows tend to hide this. On the other hand, I seem to be seeing more and more of the seams, and that's not a great sign.