S01.E14: Hitler on the Half Shelf

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Is Karl Haas a hero or a traitor and thief? When he ends up in the morgue, it starts an explosive chain of events with Henry and Jo racing to track -- not just a murderer -- but to solve a decades old notorious art crime. Karl’s son, Erik, who is an art dealer, inherited from his father priceless works of art stolen by the Nazis during World War II. Meanwhile, Adam pays an unsuspecting Abe a furtive visit, and Henry’s paternal instincts force a face-off with his nemesis. Flashbacks take Henry to 1814 where he is shocked to learn that his own father’s shipping company was involved in illegal and immoral practices. Finally, Abe receives a priceless gift.

 

Promo:

[brisbydog]

Very good episode. Very relieved Abe is off limits to Adam.

[BMGepinniw]

I will just say WOW! Great episode! We Canadians are very fortunate to get Forever a day early.

[waving feather]

Oh, man. I'm kind of in love with this show. Everything about it works for me. The characters are not there to support the case of the week, but the case of the week is there to flesh out the characters.

 

Henry. Abe. Henry and Abe. Abe is still like a little kid and Henry was so glad for him.

[Shades of Red]

I like all the little reveals that take place.  The show doesn't thump you over the head with them, just fits them in nicely.

 

On a very shallow note, can I say how great Ioan Gruffudd looks in a full suit.  He looks nice in rolled up sleeves, but last night he looked especially great with the suit jacket etc on.

 

I almost cried at the ending.  I keep forgetting that Abe isn't Henry's biological son, so when Abe was asked about his family's history I initially laughed.  Imagine telling someone your father can't die.  Then I remembered that he really didn't know his biological parents and Henry and his wife had rescued him.  The chemistry between Ioan and Judd is remarkable and very believable. 

 

The one thing that irritates me, and I know it's been mentioned previously, is Henry's lack of pop culture knowledge.  He hasn't been living under a rock, so I don't understand why he doesn't know at least a few of the things that are mentioned.

[El Seed]

Loved this episode. The line of the night, for me, was from Lucas: "Max Brenner is a zombie Nazi hunter. We were all thinking it."

 

I also enjoyed meeting Hanson's brother who won't give up his grudges against his sibling, including the theft of his Halloween candy. "I'm sorry I slept with your prom date." That's pretty cold to do that to your own brother, Hanson.

 

I hope the show wasn't insinuating that the bubonic plague has been eradicated, because it's still around. Come out the southwest U.S. and avoid the rodents. I call the prairie dogs "chirping plague carriers."

 

I teared up at the end and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I'm happy that Abe got to see a picture of his biological parents. I'm also happy that Abe is off limits to Adam. And as horrifying as Adam seems to be, I have sympathy that he was a victim of Mengele. That guy was truly one of history's greatest monsters.

 

Also, did Adam find his Roman spear? I imagine that would be a bitch trying to get through customs.

Edited February 4, 2015 by El Seed

[Athena5217]

Loved this episode. The storyline about Abraham's parents was very well done--it was honest and real in a way that most tv dramas, even the best ones, often are not. Good restrained acting from Ioan kept the focus on Abraham. There have been some great, powerful movies about Holocaust survivors and I know this episode isn't at that level, but it same that feeling of truth within a fictional work that is so important when dealing with a subject of this gravity.

And yet, I still laughed at the Indiana Jones joke, and it didn't seem out of place.

am I the only one who think the Roman spear will be the one that pierced Jesus's side during the crucifixion? It could be the reason Adam can't die.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Athena5217

[sinkwriter]

 

Also, did Adam find his Roman spear? I imagine that would be a bitch trying to get through customs.

 

Sounds like he didn't. He told Abe that his trip in NYC didn't bring him what he was looking for. Then again, he might also have been referring to not being able to fully establish a new trust with Henry.

 

I do think the twist that Adam has suffered greatly at the hands of one of the most notorious and evil Nazis is an interesting one. But like Henry says, that doesn't make up for some of the things he's done to Henry and potentially to other people. It may help explain some of his hatred toward large portions of humanity, but it doesn't excuse his "relaxed" nature about killing others.

As always, I loved the Abe and Henry scenes. And I was really touched by the final scene between Henry and his father -- just when you thought Henry was too stubborn to hear his father's regret and attempts to atone, he finally gets it and is moved by his father's gesture and words. And then they broke my heart because he wasn't able to get out any reconciling words to his father before he died. It's so sad.

[Kate87]

This was my favorite episode so far. I really liked the case in this episode. It felt much more thought-out by the writers than some of their previous murders. I was not expecting to see Adam again so soon. His scenes tonight made me feel a lot better about his character in terms of its complexity. In the past, he's seemed almost one-dimensional, focused only on bringing harm to Henry. I'm glad to see there's more to him than what we've seen in past episodes. Really looking forward to his next appearence. I still don't trust him at all! 

 

I was surprised Henry didn't explain the significance of the tray to Abe. But I loved all the flashbacks! It's fun to see more of Henry's backstory. It's also nice to see the writers willing to explore all the characters in more depth too. Hanson's brother was fantastic! More of Hanson's family please! 

 

The one thing that bothered me was how Abe kept referring to his "parents." I really felt that the terms biological parents or birth parents should have been used. Henry and Abigail are his parents; to me it felt like he was completely dismissing Henry's role in his life when he kept saying parents in reference to his birth parents. We've see so few father-son moments between the two (loved the scene in the pilot), that I felt this would have been a nice moment to reinforce their bond. I did like how supportive Henry was throughout though. Overall I did love the way this story was handled, I just wish they've used different terms. 

[Jaded Sapphire]

It bugged me for a sec too but here's something I noticed on re-watch:

Abe (and presumably the show) makes a point of referring to Henry as his father during the scene with the (awesome!) scarf toss but Abe never refers to his biological parents as his 'mother' and/or 'father.' That could be his attempt, intentionally or otherwise, at making a verbal distinction between them.

 

I'd also imagine the circumstances were a factor. Calling them extraordinary would be an understatement. Even at it's most basic level, it's not as if they gave Abe up or even died in some tragic accident, they were forcibly and deliberately taken from his life.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Jaded Sapphire

[El Seed]

am I the only one who think the Roman spear will be the one that pierced Jesus's side during the crucifixion? It could be the reason Adam can't die.

 

 

The moment Adam said he was looking for a Roman spear I immediately thought of the Roman centurion who pierced Jesus and the idea that he was looking for the spear of Longinus. Hell, I wouldn't put it past the writers to make Adam be Longinus.

 

I do think the twist that Adam has suffered greatly at the hands of one of the most notorious and evil Nazis is an interesting one. But like Henry says, that doesn't make up for some of the things he's done to Henry and potentially to other people. It may help explain some of his hatred toward large portions of humanity, but it doesn't excuse his "relaxed" nature about killing others.

 

 

Oh, it certainly doesn't excuse Adam of what he's done. I find his opinions on murder, his actual murders, and the psychological mind games he's done to lord knows how many people to be abhorrent. Yet I can still feel sympathy that he was a victim of a monster. That sympathy doesn't outweigh my loathing for his actions and desire to see him stopped, though. In terms of character, it makes Adam more interesting and complex, not just moustache-twirling evil.

[turnitwayup]

Good COTW and I loled at Henry dropping his bag next to the body to look at the art. Really enjoyed Abe's storyline and so glad that Adam isn't gonna hurt Abe in anyway tho he's still creepy. The show is doing a decent job about bringing backstory to the supporting characters.

[Kate87]

Jaded Sapphire, thanks, I forgot about the scarf toss! That was a great moment. I agree that his parents' murders change the situation, thereby allowing the use of "parents" to be used, rather than adoption terms. I hadn't looked at it that way but it makes sense. 

 

 

Hell, I wouldn't put it past the writers to make Adam be Longinus.

That would be a twist! I'd love for his history to be explored more with regard to some of the things he's been through. One thing I love about how he's written is that he's relatively modern/up to date with his mannerisms. I hate Bill in True Blood. Here, you know Adam's old and has been hurt by things that have happened to him (such as Mengele), but he's also evolved with the time he lives in; Henry too for that matter, though not in terms of pop culture.  

[waving feather]

I hope they would consider renewing this show. Unlike most other tv shows, this one can go on for a long time with many potential story lines. Case of the week aside, there are so much to explore from Henry's past. So many time eras he has been through and people he had interacted with. So many possibilities.

[zannej]

Am I the only person thought thought it was funny how Henry said the murder weapon was very heavy but when he lifted the murder weapon, you could tell that it wasn't very heavy?

 

I did love how he ignored the body and went straight to the art.

 

I also was relieved to hear that Adam could never bring himself to harm Abe because he saw him as a kindred spirit of sorts.

 

One thing to take into account about Adam's sensibilities and morals: He was born in a different time and culture. Things were very different before and he may have been raised with a different attitude toward life. I often see people trying to attribute modern western morals to characters set in the past. The protagonists are often made to have the modern sensibilities because they would be considered "bad" if they didn't. The fact of the matter was, many of the beliefs held by people who were not monsters would be considered deplorable by today's standards, but it was how they were raised. 

 

What if Adam was raised in a time and place where people were expendable? What if its not *just* that he went through some horrors, but that he had been raised with a different view on killing. It's like taking a person who was raised to hunt animals for sport and then introducing them to a vegetarian or vegan society where the thought of harming an animal is appalling.

 

I personally hope that the spear thing has nothing to do with Jesus and I hope they steer clear of any Biblical or religious references.

 

Moving along, I really love the supporting characters on this show. I love that the characters have families and back stories and that they all have interesting personalities. Nigel always cracks me up.

 

I also wanted to see Henry explain the origins of the platter to Abe. It was nice to see Abe finding out who his birth parents were-- although I have to say there is no way the photo would look like that and be so pristine. But I was willing to overlook that.

 

I really wish ABC would renew this series. I need to find their address to write to them.. I wonder if there's an online petition for it.

[arcadia63]

I enjoyed this episode also, I did have one question though.  When they were experimenting on Adam, I'm sure they would have tortured him to the point of death. Wouldn't he have just poofed away to the nearest water, like he did with Henry?

[TobinAlbers]

Aww, apparently the photo of Abe's parents was of JH's real parents.

 

For a moment I really thought that Abe was going to end up being Adam's son somehow; the writers did a nice swerve in connecting them through their surviving the horrors of the Nazis.

 

That Todesengel painting was amazing and intense and striking.

 

Adam being a monster that looks to have been made and not born that way? Abe learning more about his birth parents as Henry warmly supports him? Henry learning that parents are unfortunately quite flawed and fallible and the origins of his pocketwatch? Talk about an unexpectedly rich episode for a 'fluffy' show. Forever isn't slacking up on quality and giving it their all writing and acting wise even if their ratings are low and a second season may not be in the cards. They're gonna put their best foot forward and let the chips fall where they may. It's a really nice gem of a show that really could be Castle's heir. Hope ABC relents and gives it another 13 episode season.

 

That scarf toss of Henry's punctuated by Henry's defiant 'Take that!' stare after Abe whined for him to butch up was priceless. Only thing better would've been if Henry had snapped his fingers before turning with whip of his head to walk away.

 

When IG walked into frame for his first meeting with Adam, darned if he didn't look a bit menacing himself. The look on his face combined with his dark looks really made Henry look like the skulking dangerous one. Then IG goes all 'I"m sorry you got tortured' woobie face and he's back to cuddly again.

 

BTW I think the daggar may be to Adam what Henry's pocketwatch is to Henry- a talisman that they're connected to that is somehow also tied into their being caught in an immortality loop.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Abraham referring to his parents didn't bother me. I think he and Henry both know that Henry is his dad, Abigail is his mom, and his parents are the people he has spent a good portion of his life wondering about because he knows nothing about them. Both and and Henry are secure enough in their relationship with each other that they aren't quibbling over semantics about how Abraham refers to his biological parents. I love in particular that Henry is not at all jealous or threatened by Abe's desire to learn about his parents and his family. That is genuine selfless love when you want the other person to get exactly what they want.

 

Karl's son, on the other hand, was a little prick. Oh, boo hoo, I'm having a hard time paying my rent so why don't you sell some of that priceless artwork that was STOLEN from other people and then give me the money? Sorry, no sympathy for that kid. You are an adult so it's not your father's responsibility to worry about your rent. And even if you think it's your father's responsibility, that doesn't mean he should ignore the commitment he has made to return these pieces to their rightful owners.

[Notwisconsin]

Adam is the Wandering Jew. That's why he was in a Nazi concentration camp. (not a spoiler, just a theory). I also think they were going to make him some sort of Red Reddington from the Black List. But we'll never know. Oh well....

[sinkwriter]

 

Aww, apparently the photo of Abe's parents was of JH's real parents.

 

Thanks for that detail! I had been wondering if the photo was of his parents or grandparents, or if they'd doctored up an old photo. Very nice touch.

[MissLucas]

That was a great episode even if they took some shortcuts (like the Nazis stamping all their stolen artwork). But one thing bothered me - how does Adam's resurrection mojo work? Henry disappears and shows up in a considerable distance to the place where he had died - that was also how he managed to escape prison at least once. I assume Adam died several times under Mengele's hands so how did the Nazis ensure he would reappear within a radar that would make escape impossible? We don't know if Adam reappears in a body of water like Henry or if it works differently for him. I hope this will get adressed later in the show.

[sinkwriter]

 

That was a great episode even if they took some shortcuts (like the Nazis stamping all their stolen artwork).

 

Why is that a shortcut? I thought that was something the Nazis actually did in real life.

 

 

We don't know if Adam reappears in a body of water like Henry or if it works differently for him. I hope this will get adressed later in the show.

 

I hope so too, because I was definitely wondering about it during those Mengele scenes.

[MissLucas]

I'm not an expert on the subject but  identifying art stolen by the Nazis would be a lot easier if they had really put swastikas on everything. I never heard of that and assumed it was a shortcut for the writers saving time that would otherwise have to be spent on Henry & Co figuring out what was going with the artwork in the murder victim's appartment.

[topanga]

Oh, man. I'm kind of in love with this show. Everything about it works for me. The characters are not there to support the case of the week, but the case of the week is there to flesh out the characters.

 

This is such a good show. It saddens me to think of its imminent cancellation.

 

 

 

Karl's son, on the other hand, was a little prick. Oh, boo hoo, I'm having a hard time paying my rent so why don't you sell some of that priceless artwork that was STOLEN from other people and then give me the money? Sorry, no sympathy for that kid. You are an adult so it's not your father's responsibility to worry about your rent. And even if you think it's your father's responsibility, that doesn't mean he should ignore the commitment he has made to return these pieces to their rightful owners.

My thoughts exactly.

 

I like that Henry's father wasn't perfect. But he raised Henry to abhor slavery, which explained why Henry was so mortified when his father began to participate in the Atlantic Slave Trade.

[HalcyonDays]

That was a great episode even if they took some shortcuts (like the Nazis stamping all their stolen artwork). But one thing bothered me - how does Adam's resurrection mojo work? Henry disappears and shows up in a considerable distance to the place where he had died - that was also how he managed to escape prison at least once. I assume Adam died several times under Mengele's hands so how did the Nazis ensure he would reappear within a radar that would make escape impossible? We don't know if Adam reappears in a body of water like Henry or if it works differently for him. I hope this will get adressed later in the show.

 

I would guess the Nazi's figured out that when Adam died, he would appear at a specific location. They would position guards there, and he would simply be recaught before he could get away and brought to the same camp again. Just my guess.

 

I really love this show and hope ABC gives it a chance for a second season. This episode was really well done and I liked the case of the week, and the encounter with Adam. I had to turn my head at his flashback scenes, it was so disturbing to me. Just terrible. Doesn't excuse his actions, but still.

 

I have a feeling that dagger might be a way to end the resurrection curse he and Henry have, which is why Adam's looking for it.

Love that little trivia that the photo was Judd Hirsch's real parents. Love it. He and Henry have a great relationship. And the scarve flip was hilarious!

 

Excellent episode.

[theatremouse]

I do think the twist that Adam has suffered greatly at the hands of one of the most notorious and evil Nazis is an interesting one. But like Henry says, that doesn't make up for some of the things he's done to Henry and potentially to other people. It may help explain some of his hatred toward large portions of humanity, but it doesn't excuse his "relaxed" nature about killing others.

I also think it adds new dimension to the fact that he autopsied that other guy alive, didn't he? Trying to frame Henry? So he apparently did so after having experienced it.

I don't think the Nazi experience is what turned Adam to the creepy evil dude we see today. He kept stressing before about how so.very.long it's been. I'm not discounting that torture can severely change a person, but it struck me as very odd that this episode sort of seemed to try to make us wonder if that's what made him decide to go all torturey murdery, but his previous appearances, including just the vocal appearances, strongly suggested this isn't a recent thing. For a 2000 year old dude, the past 70 years is very recent.

I can't decide if I think it's congruous that he sometimes clearly takes joy in killing people and other times doesn't care but just feels like it's a a fine-and-dandy thing to do and doesn't matter anyway, and yet he'd feel kindred spirit with Abe, or presumably any Holocaust survivors. It's either very interesting where he draws the line, especially if I assume he was a serial killer before the 1940s, which I currently do, OR it's really sloppy and might be something they thought up after the fact and had to force to fit into the ongoing plot. Not sure which I think is more likely at this point.

Edited February 5, 2015 by theatremouse

[sinkwriter]

I also don't know if I can trust him enough to stay 'hands off' when it comes to Abe. I appreciate it for the temporary relief, but I still wonder if Henry does anything "bad" enough to anger Adam, I could see him hitting Henry where it would hurt the most -- harming Abe. Just because he says he has no interest in hurting Abe doesn't mean he wouldn't if it was the only thing that could accomplish his needs. Like theatremouse pointed out, his "line" seems very fluid.

Edited February 5, 2015 by sinkwriter

[shapeshifter]

Aww, apparently the photo of Abe's parents was of JH's real parents....

Thank you for posting this; I was wondering. I stopped it went back to freeze frame the picture. It was like a cross between my parents' wedding picture and a picture of my mother's parents, which seemed right since JH is half a generation older than I am.

 

...am I the only one who think the Roman spear will be the one that pierced Jesus's side during the crucifixion? It could be the reason Adam can't die....

That's both a cool idea and a risky idea because of the iconic religious motifs such a plot would necessarily employ. I missed it (working nights, watching late when I should be sleeping), so thanks for pointing it out.

This would also imply that Adam was pretty psychologically damaged by the time Mengele got to him.

 

...I also enjoyed meeting Hanson's brother who won't give up his grudges against his sibling, including the theft of his Halloween candy. "I'm sorry I slept with your prom date." That's pretty cold to do that to your own brother, Hanson....

I was waiting for a line like, "but, ya know, I did wind up marrying her and having 4 kids with her, so, bygones?" --to kind of redeem Hanson.

[Surrealist]

Very good episode. Very relieved Abe is off limits to Adam.

 

I was happy for the same reason. This has been my favorite episode of the series so far. It was Abe-centric.

 

And damn this show for making me sympathize with Adam! *shakes fist*

 

Mengele experimented on him. How horrifying. I didn't mind that Adam killed Julian. I'm not sure what that says about me.  :-|

 

I had a feeling that the journal Adam left was going to have Abe's real parents' names in it. I was so happy for him. Also, I enjoyed seeing Henry's father's slave trading background brought to light. Henry's very principled and it was interesting to see his anger toward his father for being a "hypocrite" of sorts. As his father lay dying and apologized for his behavior, I knew he was going to die just as Henry started to apologize to him. I thought that was sad.

 

And Hanson's brother . . . hilarious. "I'm sorry I slept with your prom date." The funny runs in that family. :)

 

I'm loving how this show is evolving and it had better get a second season. At least.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Surrealist

[roctavia]

Re: the ancient weapon Adam is searching for, I thought he said it was a Roman dagger from the 3rd century B.C., so I don't think it would have been related to the Crucifixion, but I may have misheard.

 

Does anyone know where Henry and Abe went to get the box of things from Abe's parents? I assumed they went to Poland, since that was their last known address, so to speak. Otherwise, how would a library or museum in the States have access to personal artifacts from Europe? Maybe they found a local institution to write and send for the box? (I shouldn't get so hung up on such details, I know.)

 

Also, if the Nazi ledger identified Abe's parents via his tattoo number, is there a digital record of such numbers that Abe could have researched at some point? (Again, nitpicking.)

 

 

Henry said something earlier about a Holocaust museum... Or something along those lines. I know there is one in DC, perhaps something similar in New York that has storage for items related to the Holocaust?

 

I think the books were in that art vault, so not available for public consumption or for anybody to turn into electronic anything... They were being hoarded like the other stuff instead of out in the world.

 

[theatremouse]

Anyone want to weigh in on whether it was anachronistic for Henry to be as enraged at his father and that whole bit? Obviously people on both sides of the fence at the time but I'm not familiar enough with the precise time period they flashed on screen to know whether the opinions would've been as pervasive as presented or if this is another case of hero retroactively being given today's ethics so he doesn't look bad even though the example was 200 years ago.

[topanga]

 

Anyone want to weigh in on whether it was anachronistic for Henry to be as enraged at his father and that whole bit? Obviously people on both sides of the fence at the time but I'm not familiar enough with the precise time period they flashed on screen to know whether the opinions would've been as pervasive as presented or if this is another case of hero retroactively being given today's ethics so he doesn't look bad even though the example was 200 years ago.

According to what Henry told his father, his father was the one to taught him to abhor slavery. Which seemed to be a large reason for his anger.

 

The Morgan family was quite rich, but I have to imagine there were at least a few other rich families in Great Britain who didn't profit from the Slave Trade.

[praeceptrix]

Anyone want to weigh in on whether it was anachronistic for Henry to be as enraged at his father and that whole bit? Obviously people on both sides of the fence at the time but I'm not familiar enough with the precise time period they flashed on screen to know whether the opinions would've been as pervasive as presented or if this is another case of hero retroactively being given today's ethics so he doesn't look bad even though the example was 200 years ago.

I am not certain how pervasive it was intended to look, as we only saw Henry at his club associating with like-minded friends, and with his father. There was a fairly vocal anti-slavery & anti-slave trade lobby in Britain in the late 18th century (I believe that those scenes were set in the early 19th century). A good fictional portrayal of the period, coincidentally starring Ioan, is "Amazing Grace."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454776/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_31

[Calamity Jane]

I like all the little reveals that take place.  The show doesn't thump you over the head with them, just fits them in nicely.

 

On a very shallow note, can I say how great Ioan Gruffudd looks in a full suit.  He looks nice in rolled up sleeves, but last night he looked especially great with the suit jacket etc on.

 

I almost cried at the ending.  I keep forgetting that Abe isn't Henry's biological son, so when Abe was asked about his family's history I initially laughed.  Imagine telling someone your father can't die.  Then I remembered that he really didn't know his biological parents and Henry and his wife had rescued him.  The chemistry between Ioan and Judd is remarkable and very believable. 

 

The one thing that irritates me, and I know it's been mentioned previously, is Henry's lack of pop culture knowledge.  He hasn't been living under a rock, so I don't understand why he doesn't know at least a few of the things that are mentioned.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who forgets Abe isn't Henry's biological son! 

Such a great show, I do hope it will be renewed.  With so much garbage on TV, why would they cancel a show this good?  Give it a little more time to build.

[bros402]

Thank you for posting this; I was wondering. I stopped it went back to freeze frame the picture. It was like a cross between my parents' wedding picture and a picture of my mother's parents, which seemed right since JH is half a generation older than I am.

 

I was wondering that too - since it looked a LOT like photos we found in a box after my grandfather died - there were photos of his parents & their relatives in similar frames with similar wear/aging.

 

 

Anyone want to weigh in on whether it was anachronistic for Henry to be as enraged at his father and that whole bit? Obviously people on both sides of the fence at the time but I'm not familiar enough with the precise time period they flashed on screen to know whether the opinions would've been as pervasive as presented or if this is another case of hero retroactively being given today's ethics so he doesn't look bad even though the example was 200 years ago.

 

Slavery was abolished in England in 1833, but before that, there was a rather vocal anti-slavery lobby. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for someone like Henry to be raised with the ideal of "Slavery is bad" if his family had enough money that they didn't need to traffic such high value goods when he was in his formative years.

[Biosynth]

I thought I heard Adam say a Roman Dagger and 44 BC.  Maybe I ought to go look at it again to get the date again. 

 

Julius Caesar was killed by Dagger on the stairs of the senate in Rome (which I've been to and have seen the site of his grave.  Check mark off life accomplishment list).  He was killed in 44 AD (Or BCE in current lingo.)

 

Brutus, from what I've found was the last or one of the last to put a dagger in Caesar who then said "Et Tu Brutus?"  "You TOO Brutus?"  Could be that Brutus' dagger was the killing blow. 

 

So, if Adam is Julius Caesar and his final demise was from Brutus' dagger, could he be looking for the same weapon that finally killed him to be the one to end the curse?

 

In which case, what can Henry hope for.  The bullet?  The gun that shot him?  How do you find that?

[Netfoot]

Julius Caesar was killed by Dagger on the stairs of the senate in Rome (which I've been to and have seen the site of his grave.  Check mark off life accomplishment list).  He was killed in 44 AD (Or BCE in current lingo.)

 

Sorry, but you've made an error.  AD (Anno Domini = The Year Of Our Lord) is depreciated in favour of CE (Christian Era).  BCE (Before Cristian Era) replaces BC (Before Christ) now also depreciated.

 

I So, if Adam is Julius Caesar and his final demise was from Brutus' dagger, could he be looking for the same weapon that finally killed him to be the one to end the curse?

 

Hmm.  Interesting thought.  Would you say that Adam's hair looked Caesarish?  While I don't think it's authentic for Caesar, it wasn't that far removed.  But I'm probably reaching.  If production was going there, we wouldn't see subtlety.  They'd drive the point home with a mallet!

[praeceptrix]

Biosynth beat me to it. I just re-watched and "Adam" clearly said a dagger from 44 BC. The Senate murdered Gaius Julius Caesar on the Ides of March of that year (color me jealous that you have been there, Biosynth!).

 

Interesting theory that "Adam" might be Julius Caesar. I rather hope that that is not the case. I am not exactly sure why I feel that way. Perhaps it is because Julius Caesar will always be Ciaran Hinds to me.

 

As a side note, I have a correction to Netfoot's correction: BCE = Before Common Era & CE = Common Era (sorry if that seems pedantic, but this history professor can't help herself).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Does anyone know where Henry and Abe went to get the box of things from Abe's parents? I assumed they went to Poland, since that was their last known address, so to speak. Otherwise, how would a library or museum in the States have access to personal artifacts from Europe? Maybe they found a local institution to write and send for the box? (I shouldn't get so hung up on such details, I know.)

They went to the Museum of Jewish Heritage which is located in New York (although the entrance looks quite different from the one used on the show):

 

[theatremouse]

Interesting theory that "Adam" might be Julius Caesar. I rather hope that that is not the case. I am not exactly sure why I feel that way. Perhaps it is because Julius Caesar will always be Ciaran Hinds to me.

Is it wrong I actually jumped to him being the stabber rather than the stabee? I guess not since he's an established serial killer...

Have we seen him without a shirt? Does he have a convenient scar to lend credence to the Caesar theory? Or now we're waiting for just that.

[Athena5217]

Hmm. Interesting thought. Would you say that Adam's hair looked Caesarish? While I don't think it's authentic for Caesar, it wasn't that far removed. But I'm probably reaching. If production was going there, we wouldn't see subtlety. They'd drive the point home with a mallet!

I think Caesar was balding and that is partly why he is often depicted with a weath around his head-- it was the BCE version of the combover or toupee. Caesar had epilepsy which would really suck to have for 2,000 years. I just don't see them picking someone famous like Caesar for Adam because it limits what they can invent as a backstory. More likely he's some fictional Roman soldier.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Athena5217

[praeceptrix]

Is it wrong I actually jumped to him being the stabber rather than the stabee? I guess not since he's an established serial killer...Have we seen him without a shirt? Does he have a convenient scar to lend credence to the Caesar theory? Or now we're waiting for just that.

Right there with you, theatremouse! He certainly projects more of a creepy serial killer vibe than successful Patrician general and author. I have little desire to see Burn Gorman shirtless, but if he is supposed to be Julius Caesar, he'd have to have a lot of scars, as all of the senators stabbed him.

[retrograde]

although the entrance looks quite different from the one used on the show

 

Oh huh, that's the Brooklyn Historical Society. I remember walking past that street and seeing they were filming a while ago, but didn't even notice in the actual episode. On rewatch, they also did the interiors there, in the library. Really beautiful building, if anyone ever happens to be in the area.

[Netfoot]

As a side note, I have a correction to Netfoot's correction: BCE = Before Common Era & CE = Common Era (sorry if that seems pedantic, but this history professor can't help herself).

 

Apparently, the "C" in BCE / CE can be Christian / Common / Current.  But it strikes me that if the goal of the term is to be religion-neutral, then "Before Christian Era" rather does defeat the purpose.  So I'll take the correction as valid.  Thanks. 

 

(I first encountered the term in Michener's The Source.)

[kassygreene]

Just watched this last night, and most of the questions seem to have been addressed  here, but if it helps I also heard Roman dagger from 44 BC, which the closed caption helpfully confirmed...  My mind jumped to the assassination of Julius Caesar, but since (according to Shakespeare) the body was recovered, prepared for a public funeral, and publicly funeraled - well, cremated in the Roman custom, while Marc Antony whipped up the mob, I assumed the dagger belonged to one of the assassins.  Adam seems like a Cassius to me, but 2000 years of not permanently dying could, I suppose, change one's outlook on living.

 

As to the slave trade, many British fortunes were made or maintained by slave labor in the West Indies.  The trade was abolished in 1808, but slavery in Britain did keep going until 1833.  Henry's father therefore was maintaining his fortune criminally, and from the dates probably had the opportunity after 1808...

 

This show is good enough to be renewed, but Shonda Rhimes will probably need the hour next year.  Or, to be even more cynical, ABC can't renew interesting shows (Selfie, Galavant, etc) and I'm realizing that apart from the apparently immortal Castle, I have only been able to watch the very short series that they seem to cancel in a time frame between 30 minutes before the pilot airs and 5 minutes after the end of the pilot's title sequence.

Edited February 8, 2015 by kassygreene

[WendyCR72]

I think the show is charming and I'm so not a network apologist, but I really can't fault ABC much here if this show dies. The network has tried special showings on other nights. The result was...not great. Add in last week's episode didn't even crack 1.0 in the demo (0.9, and demos are how ratings work now, like it or not - and I don't), and I think its fate is sealed.

 

For whatever reason, the show just isn't catching on. Maybe it would have worked as an Amazon or Netflix series.

[retrograde]

I think it doesn't help that it isn't exactly a "young" show. Both in the sense that Ioan Gruffudd is 41 and Alana de la Garza 38, but also that she is playing a widow and he an older (waaaaay older), kinda stuffy guy. And the other main character is 79. And they all spend a lot of time in an antiques store.

 

Which is not to say that shows without 20-somethings can't be popular (Elementary, for instance), but I think it's harder for them to capture the attention of the Tumblr crowd. From what I've seen, Forever does pretty well in the +7 ratings, but it isn't a watercooler show. 

Edited February 8, 2015 by retrograde

[dubbel zout]

Forever is a "cozy" mystery in a season with other cosies: The Mysteries of Laura, Castle, the various PBS series, etc. And the time-travel thing is covered by Sleepy Hollow, still getting buzz.

 

I think Forever has the bad luck to be a decent show that will never capture a big enough audience to ensure its survival. It's no one's fault—the network can't force people to watch, no matter how much the show is promoted—and every season has a couple of shows like this. At least everyone connected can be proud of the work they did. Cold comfort, probably, but it's something.

[bros402]

I'm 24 and I rather enjoy Forever. It has a fun concept.

[Jaded Sapphire]

I'm 24 and I rather enjoy Forever. It has a fun concept.

26 and agreed.

 

It also strikes me that all of the protagonists seem like decent people. I'm so sick of watching shows about jerks.