S05.E04: Episode Four

[jschoolgirl]

Did Tony actually use the word "whore"? Someone had it in a quote above, but I don't know if they were being facetious or not. I didn't hear him say it, but maybe my outlet muted it.

[Too Late Kev]

I think that wasn't an exact quote but a representation of his response.

[JudyObscure]

No Tony didn't use the word "whore." On the contrary, he said that he thought so much of Mary he couldn't accept the idea that she would sleep with someone if she didn't love him and plan to marry him. Sort of the opposite of whore to my way of thinking. He thinks she loves him and something else is wrong that can be fixed.

 

While Mary made it clear to Anna that this was a test drive to her, I didn't get the impression that Tony saw it as anything but a consummation of their  love.

Edited January 26, 2015 by JudyObscure

[amensisterfriend]

Edith sadly admits she was getting under foot at  the Drewes and Robert just has to rub it in with, "I knew that would happen."

 

I realize this makes me a horrible person, but I found that highly amusing. And it's not that I hate Edith! (I neither love nor hate her, actually, though I do really like the actress.) It's just that, as someone else noted above, the degree to which she's unlucky and overlooked and casually insulted at every turn has passed from genuinely depressing into unintentional farce for me. I don't watch Family Guy, but when I heard a friend compare Edith to Meg, I found myself agreeing :) 

 

As a new fan who knows less about historical norms than pretty much anyone else posting here, can someone tell me whether Tony's offer of a sex week would be considered a red flag or at least kind of sleazy? I felt like a suitor making that suggestion in that time and place was kind of a hint that he was an ungentlemanly jerk, but then I never liked him to begin with and am probably biased. 

 

This is seriously the most brilliant thread on this site. Law & OrdeR: Special Valet Unit had me cracking up all day! 

[LittleIggy]

I must be the only one to find most of the 'young thing' dresses on the show to be hideous. They require an absolutely stick thin figure with no breasts and no hips. 

That was the fashionable silhouette in the '20s. I don't find the style hideous at all.

[roomtorome]

If someone behaved like Bunting in my own home with guests - regardless of political affiliation - I would ask her to leave as well.  Who does that in someone's home?  It wasn't a matter of political debate, but she was personally insulting.  Ick - hope she vanishes off the scene soon.

 

This "break up" does not bode well - I can't believe they are setting that stage only to let it die with no nasty follow up.

[SusanSunflower]

I've never understood the sack-dress because while it can look fetching standing up, it tends to balloon or drape awkwardly when seated .... it may or may not look good while walking, and all that unbound fabric is prone to wrinkle unattractively if clutched. I love the beading and the decoration, but they often look like nightgowns -- and I think they were rather supposed to -- and, worse, they look chilly to wear, particularly in big houses. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[MissT]

I see a Mary and Tom hookup. 

[DrSparkles]

Who is Mabel & why was she so crabby? #badmemory

[ShadowFacts]

 

As a new fan who knows less about historical norms than pretty much anyone else posting here, can someone tell me whether Tony's offer of a sex week would be considered a red flag or at least kind of sleazy? I felt like a suitor making that suggestion in that time and place was kind of a hint that he was an ungentlemanly jerk, but then I never liked him to begin with and am probably biased.

Yes, I think pretty much a red flag and sleazy, that's why it had to be kept secret and why Spratt thought he had some juicy goods on Mary until Violet shut him down. 

 

Who is Mabel & why was she so crabby? #badmemory

Mabel was engaged to Tony and he broke up with her when he started crushing on Mary.  She wasn't afraid to be a little snappy with Mary because of that. 

[RedHawk]

When Tony appeared on the scene he was seriously dating Mabel Lane Fox (I LOVE that name) and was expected to marry her. But he fell for Mary, who turned him down so he and Mabel got engaged. (I believe he admitted to Mary that he had to marry a woman with money, so if not her, then he'd go on with Mabel.) But after the engagement was announced in the papers Tony realized he was still in love with Mary and so broke it off with Mabel. He reappeared at Downton asking Mary to give their relationship a chance.

 

And of course there is Mary, telling Tony it was over.  Where was the gentle way of turning him down that Blake had mentioned?

 

That was something I didn't get. It wouldn't have been gentle if Mary had gone to Tony and said, "Oh, sorry, after our week of passion between the sheets I ran into Blake -- who was with the woman you dumped for me by the way -- and I've decided he's the one for me." Yeah, sure, Tony would take that much better than Mary just telling him she didn't feel it after all.

Edited January 27, 2015 by RedHawk

[Diane M]

This is the guy who tripped Bates.

 

I thought that was O'Brien, Thomas's partner in crime.

[Ripley68]

Loved all but one of the dresses at the fashion show.  I think Tony reacted correctly, initially.  As far as he knew, Mary had made up her mind, her only concern was that they wouldn't be.....compatible....when it came to the bedroom.  He was assuming that once the deed was done and she had shown satisfaction with the results, it was a done deal. That she decided he wasn't the one afterwards could only lead him to the conclusion that he showed a lack of skill in the sheets.  Yes she denied that, but he is still looking at it as a major blow to his male ego.  Now, how he reacted later....totally wrong and jerky.  If he had just said, "I will give you more time to make up your mind before calling it off" or some such thing, it wouldn't have been so bad, but his ordering her to his side was scary.  Hopefully Blake will rescue her. The only thing I don't like about him is that the history of their relationship is too like her's and Matthews.  Meet, hate each other, realize they might have some redeeming qualities, become attracted to each other, something seperates them.....now all that's left is to come back together after obstacle is removed.

[helenamonster]

But it doesn't make them seem nice. It makes them seem mindless and weird. Who continually goes out of their way to be nice to someone who has been downright AWFUL to you on multiple occasions?!? The fact that Baxter and Anna BOTH act this way with Thomas makes it even weirder-- one of them, and it's a weird character trait, but both of them? Just lazy writing that makes absolutely no sense.

 

Mileages vary, but I can't blame Baxter for reaching out to Thomas in this instance. I mean, he's not just gloomy, he looks sick. Bags under the eyes, suspicious spoon nabbing, syringes...I think no matter how much I disliked someone, if I thought they were harming themselves I'd try to step in and do something.

 

ETA: I hate Thomas.

And no, I don't feel sorry for him because he's trying to not be gay. This is the guy who tripped Bates. Who tried to frame Bates for stealing. Who shot his own hand to get out of the war. Who conspired with O'Brien in Cora's miscarriage. Who was blackmailing Baxter. Who sold black market shoddy goods to the family. Who stole Isis.

 

Don't get me wrong, Thomas is scum, but he's not guilty of all of this. It was O'Brien who tripped Bates, and while Thomas did cover up Her Ladyship's Soap after the fact, O'Brien came up with that little gem all on her own.

 

I feel like Thomas is the 1920s version of Perez Hilton. We don't hate you because you're gay, we hate you because YOU ARE TERRIBLE.

 

Oh, as for Gillingham: like valet, like master, I guess.

Edited January 27, 2015 by helenamonster

[lucindabelle]

Didn't thomas trip bates when he first arrived?

I thought thomas gave O'brien the idea... The two of he hem together were just beyond, though.

I hate, hate, hate, the way were expected to feel sorry for lovelorn thomas or doesn't want to be gay thomas when he shows never any signs of feeling anything for anybody but himself, ever. Hg stole ISIS!

[Stella MD]

 

No Tony didn't use the word "whore." On the contrary, he said that he thought so much of Mary he couldn't accept the idea that she would sleep with someone if she didn't love him and plan to marry him. Sort of the opposite of whore to my way of thinking.

Is it, though? To my ear, that's a backhanded way of arriving at the exact same whore-ish conclusion. Paraphrasing: "I thought you were such an upstanding woman that you would only sleep with a man you loved and hoped to marry... (but instead you're here coldly dumping me after we had sex, so clearly you're the opposite of upstanding)."

[txhorns79]

And, yes, Mary (or the imaginary male) also got a week of sex, which is fun even it's not with your perfect partner, but again Mary trusted Tony and drank the "let's see if this works" Kool-Aid, never thinking Tony would turn on her if she realized it really didn't work.

 

I could be wrong, but I doubt Mary was seriously considering the idea that it really wouldn't work.  I think she fully expected it to work, and they would then be married.  I mean, after all Mary has been through, while I know this was a practice run, I doubt she would have done this if she didn't fully expect a ring at the end of it.   

 

 

NOBODY IN 1924 thought the rise of fascism in Germany was because "we" were too hard on the Germans.

 

Germany had already gone through hyperinflation by that point (caused in part by the reparations Germany had to pay), which seriously destabilized that country.  I can agree that Robert's comments were a little too on the nose, but I can imagine people during that period wondering if the post-war reparations had been too much after seeing what they wrought.  

[alias1]

I keep coming back to the fact that Mary participated in an entire week of sex.  If it had been one or two nights I might find this result more believable.  She seemed to enjoy it until the very last day.  Talk about sending the wrong signals  She acted cowardly in my opinion.  That doesn't excuse his reaction but I could understand that he was extremely disappointed.  It didn't seem like she gave him any negative signs the entire week they were together.  And I say this as someone who really doesn't like Tony.  She doesn't come off very well in the whole thing, either.

[Too Late Kev]

From a synopsis of episode 1 where the sex-week was first discussed on The Telegraph site (article by Alice Philipson):

 

Lady Mary, in a conversation with Anna, the housemaid, broached the taboo subject of sex before marriage.
The episode sees Lady Mary trying to decide whether to accept an offer of marriage from Lord Gillingham, an old family friend of the Crawley family.
“The older I get, the more I feel we do these things very oddly,” she said.
“Even now we must decide whether to share our lives with someone without ever spending any real time with them, let alone … you know….”
She added: “Of course these days some women do [have sex before marriage]. I was talking to Lady Cunard’s daughter last week and she was so graphic I almost fainted.
“But then what could be more important to make sure that side of things are right before we tie one another together forever.”
Lord Gillingham later entered her room at Downton and made it clear he was not afraid of flouting the rules of “well-bred courtship”.
“I want you to come away just for a week on our own. And we’ll spend the days talking. We’ll spend those [nights] together too.
“I want us to be lovers Mary. I want us to know everything there is to know about each other.”

I found episode 1. The bedroom scene is at about 1 hour. you can skip right ahead to it.

 

Before the other things, he says, "You want to be sure." Then he suggests the sexy-sexy-time as listed above and says, "And after that, I believe you will be sure." She says her father would punch him in the face if he heard this suggestion. Tony says, "I'm trying to convince you to marry me, that's not the normal purpose of seducers."

 

She says, "No one must ever find out."

 

Earlier in the episode, 38 minutes in, is the scene where Mary's talking about loving him in her cold unfeeling way and that she wants to make her 2nd marriage as happy as her first. He says "There's bound to be a risk on some level. I mean, you have to take a chance."

 

In both these scenes, he's charming, friendly, and reasonable. There's not a hint of the man from episode 4 who can't believe Mary is the type of woman to go to bed with someone she wasn't planning to marry. Or the sarcastic man who says, "How flattering. We go to bed together and you wake up." In other words, "I'm shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on in here!"

[izabella]

I can forgive Tony for not saying the right things to Mary in that moment, if there are such words.  Stinging blow to his ego, for sure, but he really should have seen that coming. 

 

I can't forgive him for not accepting her rejection, and commanding Mary to his side.  Now he's creepy instead of just crushed.

[ennui]

I wonder if Tony offed Green.  Now that we know him better, Tony isn't that nice, either.

 

I'm bothered that Anna is so suspicious of Bates.

 

Will Mary ask Bates to get rid of Tony?

[Mrsjumbo]

Some thoughts:

- everyone is always ragging on Robert's treatment of Cora, but I think it was very mean of her to invite the odious Bunting to dinner ( I believe in every case Cora's permission was asked). Cora knew even before she met her that Robert disliked her for some reason. And having witnessed Bunting's boorish behavior firsthand, she still gives her approval to the invite? After Bunting pissed off the Russian last episode & Robert said "NOW do you see why I can't stand her"? That was a big FU to Robert. Can you imagine Cora disliking someone so much, yet Robert inviting that person over & over?

-I didn't see the point in asking Mrs Pattmore & Daisy upstairs. What was mrs Pattmore going to say- yes, Daisy's distracted & not doing her job? I don't think so.

- it would be great if Gillingham did murder Green. Get rid of him & the stupid murder plot in one fell swoop. But alas, I think we saw some foreshadowing in the way he talked to Mary, & I still think it was a big clue that he asked her to use her real name on the register (blackmail).

- love Lord Merron & his proposal- I would have had to say yes! I like dr Clarkson too. But if she does accept, there will be no more delicious banter between her & Violet, & we can't have that.

- I would love Susan to come to Downton to have it out with Shrimpie. I loved seeing the dynamics of their relationship in Scotland. And maybe OBrien would come with her, as a cameo appearance!

- Rose seems like a different character now. She was a flapper, a wild, rebellious girl. Now she seems to have matured quite a bit. I've noticed she always tries to put guests at ease & has taken on a hostess role in the house.

-I have nothing to say about Edith's storyline because it is do dull.

-I love Thomas so won't say anything against him.

- I thought it was a great contrast that Lord Merton asked Isobel to marry him without even having kissed her, & Mary turned down a proposal after having a sex week.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Mrsjumbo

[JudyObscure]

JudyObscure

No Tony didn't use the word "whore." On the contrary, he said that he thought so much of Mary he couldn't accept the idea that she would sleep with someone if she didn't love him and plan to marry him. Sort of the opposite of whore to my way of thinking.

 

Stella MD

Is it, though? To my ear, that's a backhanded way of arriving at the exact same whore-ish conclusion. Paraphrasing: "I thought you were such an upstanding woman that you would only sleep with a man you loved and hoped to marry... (but instead you're here coldly dumping me after we had sex, so clearly you're the opposite of upstanding)."

I understand that interpretation and it may well be the correct one but somehow, probably because he clearly still wants to marry her, I think he still believes she's his idea of a "lady" in every sense of the word.  I thought he seemed angry and frustrated but not more than might be expected to find out that everything he's been dreaming of for a few years  might be over.  He's not saying you're not what I thought you were, he's saying, I know I'm right about the sort of lady you are so I know you must love me.  

 

All the test drive ideas were Mary's.  Tony was certain in his mind that they would be good together in bed and a marriage would follow.

[Badger]

FWIW, there were people back then who did believe that the treatment of Germany after the War was not a good thing.  One of them was British journalist Charles Edward Montague who referred to it as "a shabby epidemic of spite."  

 

Having said that, he was a liberal and a pacifist who opposed the war but nevertheless lied about his age to enlist.  After this was discovered, he ended up with the generals and commanders behind the lines and in relative safety.  He had nothing good to say about them and their conduct of the war.

 

So there were people who thought that way back then.  I'm not sure Robert would have been one of them though.  But maybe enough time had passed that it was no longer something only liberals and/or socialists believed.

[Too Late Kev]

All the test drive ideas were Mary's.  Tony was certain in his mind that they would be good together in bed and a marriage would follow.

 

In his own words, having time together alone, including spending nights together, is for the purpose of convincing Mary to marry him, helping her be sure about it. He's basically saying, "Spend a week with me and you'll want to marry me -- you'll be sure about it." If that's not a test drive, I don't know what is.

 

Before the other things, he says, "You want to be sure." Then he suggests the sexy-sexy-time as listed above and says, "And after that, I believe you will be sure." She says her father would punch him in the face if he heard this suggestion. Tony says, "I'm trying to convince you to marry me, that's not the normal purpose of seducers."

 

 

So she took a drive of the TonyCar and she was sure...it wasn't the car for her.

 

She didn't think Tony would take the news well, but I don't think she expected his UglyAngry face :< and violence simmering just under the surface.

 

On the subject of Ms. Bunting, I agree it makes no sense for Rose, Cora, etc. to continually invite her to things. She's been an amazingly impolite guest.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Too Late Kev

[ennui]

I like Merton, and I hope Isobel gives him a chance. I hope she realizes that Violet doesn't have her best interests at heart. Not a true friend, but a mildly jealous friend.

[SusanSunflower]

I don't like Gillingham but he really was blindsided. He may not wear his heart on his sleeve, but damn, he jilted what'shername for her, only to be publically humiliated by this. He believed they were engaged, just shy of public announcements to family, friends. Her consenting to a tryst (or even possibly weekend) might be a test-run, but a whole week -- a whole week spent together and she never gave him a clue. (Imagine being married to someone like that!) Pretty heartless and for her to suggest she had a sudden change of heart without taking the care to explain it quite thoroughly (intimately) is absurd. Of course he thinks she has cold feet and will change her mind. They spent a whole week talking and making love. Her heart may have been saying no-no-no, but her eyes and demeanor did not give her true feelings away.  I had liked Blake better, but now I'm doubtful... IMHO, it's going to end up being someone else. Mary needs another boy-toy she can wrap around her finger (and emasculate) like she did Matthew. I pity the lucky fellow. 

I was sorry that the policeman said so clearly they were observing Gillingham's flat wrt Greene.  I had sudden hope that they were watching Gillingham's house because of Gillingham. I don't have to "like" Gillingham to feel strongly that Mary is badly in need of a comeuppance. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[izabella]

I like Merton, and I hope Isobel gives him a chance. I hope she realizes that Violet doesn't have her best interests at heart. Not a true friend, but a mildly jealous friend.

 

I've been wondering about that.  I'm wondering if Violet is using reverse psychology on Isobel, because she knows Isobel would do the opposite of what Violet would tell her to do.  I guess I don't think Violet feels threatened by Isobel, no matter if she had a title or not.  The thought would never occur to the DC.  I get the feeling she's amused by Isobel's romance and does actually have her best interests at heart in this.  She's mostly just been a sounding board, parroting Isobel's own statements back to her.  Active listening.

 

I did like that Isobel went to Violet to tell her about it.  Even if she says no, she must be thrilled with Merton's proposal, which was wonderful.  I'm sure she'd want to share that with someone!  Those two have come a long way, edging into friend territory with all this girl talk.

[ennui]

I've been wondering about that.  I'm wondering if Violet is using reverse psychology on Isobel, because she knows Isobel would do the opposite of what Violet would tell her to do.  I guess I don't think Violet feels threatened by Isobel, no matter if she had a title or not.  The thought would never occur to the DC.  I get the feeling she's amused by Isobel's romance and does actually have her best interests at heart in this.  She's mostly just been a sounding board, parroting Isobel's own statements back to her.  Active listening.

 

I did like that Isobel went to Violet to tell her about it.  Even if she says no, she must be thrilled with Merton's proposal, which was wonderful.  I'm sure she'd want to share that with someone!  Those two have come a long way, edging into friend territory with all this girl talk.

I think Isobel needs a friend to talk to, a sounding board, but I also think Violet is a little jealous. You can love a friend and still be jealous of the good things that happen to them. I suspect that maybe Violet wants Isobel to be sad and lonely, too. If Isobel falls in love and gets married, then Violet loses their friendship. It happens.  

[SusanSunflower]

It's hard to read Violet's motivation.  Isobel's grandchild is at Downton -- which as far as I can tell -- with Fellowes translating -- would appear to matter to her not at all. She'll care more when George is in school, perhaps, reading, talking and thinking.  

If Isobel married very well, Violet might deign to visit; which she would not do if Isobel married Dr. Clarkson and stayed in Downton (no reason, no big house). Clarkson's a great match -- except his track record as Violet's pet doctor suggests he is weak. I think Isobel knows this.  

Since Isobel appears midway between Violet and Cora in age, perhaps she simply does not want Isobel to retire from life prematurely, as she did.

My impression from Violet's demurral wrt to the Prince and learning her husband's "true nature in time" was , in fact, her marriage was quite unhappy. She did not learn "his true nature" in time and at least part of the Prince's attraction was because she longed to leave ... the frame was a firm reminder that if she did, she would never see her children again. (It was very very long ago.) I think she feels somewhat guilty towards the Prince's (now missing) wife whom she treated like inconvenient furniture.  Perhaps we will learn more, but I'm guessing the wife was aware that she had captured her husband's heart. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[lucindabelle]

Robert is no pacifist and the war has only been over for six years.

I don't buy I at at all.

Any more than I but his tolerant attitude to homosexuality which is wildly not period and was a crime in England until the 1960s.

[Mrsjumbo]

So if Mary starts dating Blake, that will be 2 men she has stolen away from Mabel Fox. We might be seeing more of her...what do you think?

[madam magpie]

Actually, British economist John Maynard Keynes wrote a pretty famous book in 1919 predicting big problems for the world as a result of the punitive reparations imposed on Germany after World War I. I don't know that Keynes specifically predicted fascism and Nazis, but he did talk about the rise of extremism as a reaction to the Treaty of Versailles. There was definitely concern at the time that the Allies were driving Germany to a breaking point that would have severe consequences around the world. So it's not at all strange that Robert would think that.

I was mostly dazzled by the fashion show in this episode. Those dresses were gorgeous!

I'm very worried about Thomas. He's a meanie, but he's our meanie.

I didn't get the impression that Mabel and Blake were anything more than friends. Were we meant to think they were a couple?

Edited January 27, 2015 by madam magpie

[lucindabelle]

And we thnk Robert would read that book why? This is the man who thinks ponzi was a sure thing.

Donk is a Tory through and through and old money too. Sorry, it's just ahistorical claptrap.

As for me, I can't see thomas suffering soon enough. I hate the tongue bath he gets from Fellowes. And hat jimmy would ever have been pals with him after Thomas came into his room just takes the cake. Ugh, no.

Do agree that the dresses were gorgeous. Fellowes ripped off Poldark a couple of seasons ago with the gambling thing (and they're remaking Poldark! Whee!) and now he's apparently ripping off House of Elliott.

Dude watched some bbc growing up I guess.

[Kristen]

Skulking and Sulking: The Edith Crawley Story.

[madam magpie]

And we thnk Robert would read that book why? This is the man who thinks ponzi was a sure thing.

Donk is a Tory through and through and old money too. Sorry, it's just ahistorical claptrap.

What you said was basically that no one in 1924 blamed the rise of fascism in Germany on the Treaty of Versailles. That's incorrect. As for what Robert would or wouldn't read, since he's a fictional character, he can read whatever the person who writes him wants him to read. Personally, I can definitely see a landowner in the 1920s being concerned about the economic impact of a questionable treaty ending the most horrific global conflict the world had seen at the time. I don't want to be drawn into an internet argument about facts. Keynes himself and this particular book were incredibly famous. Anyone who wants to know what people thought or knew in the 1920s can easily look that up.

Edited January 27, 2015 by madam magpie

[CheersEnthusiast]

1.  Maybe Cora is developing some sort of dementia and has forgotten that she's invited Ms. Bunting to dinner before.  

 

2.  I applaud Robert for his restraint with Ms. Bunting--the word "shrew" did not come up and the riot act was not read in full.  Had Ms. Bunting been a Mr. Bunting I would have been very tempted to "escort" him out personally.

 

3.  The breakup between Mary and Gillingham seemed unreasonably passionate given the ho-hum "tryst" scenes in the hotel.  They may as well have been "arranging matches" over the morning paper for all the excitement the week seemed to inspire in them both at the time.    

Edited January 27, 2015 by CheersEnthusiast

[ShadowFacts]

 

- everyone is always ragging on Robert's treatment of Cora, but I think it was very mean of her to invite the odious Bunting to dinner ( I believe in every case Cora's permission was asked). Cora knew even before she met her that Robert disliked her for some reason. And having witnessed Bunting's boorish behavior firsthand, she still gives her approval to the invite? After Bunting pissed off the Russian last episode & Robert said "NOW do you see why I can't stand her"? That was a big FU to Robert. Can you imagine Cora disliking someone so much, yet Robert inviting that person over & over?

 

Since it makes no sense at all that people repeatedly ask her back knowing there will likely be unpleasantness, I am now thinking it is passive-aggressive behavior on Cora, Rose and Isobel's part.  They know it will irritate the hell out of Robert.  Isobel doesn't have good reason to be personally hostile to Robert, but she does have her political sympathies in Tom/Bunting's corner.  Rose is generally respectful to him so she just might be acting a little flighty and daft in this, but Cora could definitely be sabotaging Robert's peace of mind.  Accidentally on purpose.

[Constantinople]

I've been wondering about that.  I'm wondering if Violet is using reverse psychology on Isobel, because she knows Isobel would do the opposite of what Violet would tell her to do.  I guess I don't think Violet feels threatened by Isobel, no matter if she had a title or not.  The thought would never occur to the DC.  I get the feeling she's amused by Isobel's romance and does actually have her best interests at heart in this.  She's mostly just been a sounding board, parroting Isobel's own statements back to her.  Active listening.

 

I did like that Isobel went to Violet to tell her about it.  Even if she says no, she must be thrilled with Merton's proposal, which was wonderful.  I'm sure she'd want to share that with someone!  Those two have come a long way, edging into friend territory with all this girl talk.

 

 

I think Isobel needs a friend to talk to, a sounding board, but I also think Violet is a little jealous. You can love a friend and still be jealous of the good things that happen to them. I suspect that maybe Violet wants Isobel to be sad and lonely, too. If Isobel falls in love and gets married, then Violet loses their friendship. It happens.

I'm not convinced Violet wants Isobel to be sad and lonely.

I'm also not convinced that either one of them thinks Isobel would be sad and lonely if Isobel were to decline Lord Merton's offer (aside from the usual, normal "road not taken - what if" thoughts that people have).  Isobel isn't one to keep idle, so I imagine she's doing something to occupy herself.  Plus, her only grandchild is within walking distance.

 

Isobel has been a widow for over 12 years and is a bit headstrong; the last time Isobel didn't get what she wanted, she flew off to France in a huff during the war to work for the Red Cross.  After all that time of doing what you want, when you want, it's not the simplest thing to get married and move away, even if "moving away" is relatively close.  As a long-time widow who is headstrong herself, I suspect Violet understands this.

[txhorns79]

but Cora could definitely be sabotaging Robert's peace of mind.  Accidentally on purpose.

 

I'm not so sure.  Cora has to deal with him after he gets all worked up by Miss Bunting.  That can't be fun for her, even if she enjoys seeing someone get him all worked up.

[SusanSunflower]

Gillingham and Mary had been courting in Mary's cold sort of way for 2 years, as I recall. Gillingham had made it clear he was "goal oriented." He was willing to take it as slow as Mary insisted on (because she's a control freak who controls people as best she can) and, despite glacial progress, Gillingham saw the end of this endless process when she agreed to go away for a week -- succumbed to his charms, as it were -- offered herself to him -- with plenty of looks acknowledging she was about to accept his proposal for marriage -- necessary for announcement and wedding plans. This wasn't a shout-from-the-rooftops moment. I'd have liked to see Mary and G on the morning after the first night.  Mary was not cold or seething or much of anything -- rather bored or tired or distracted (about to go home and resume her life).

 

Fine if she decided to break up with him, but in public, in the middle of the day, while walking? No, late afternoon invitation to some private place. Tea or a cocktail and some sort of a regretful "It's me, not you. You're too good for me." well no Mary would never say that. To get dumped for no reason but "I changed my mind."  Gillingham said he had wanted them to spend a week together to talk and make love, to become genuinely intimate. While there little to indicate that they'd become soul-mates, there was also little to indicate it had truly gone badly, that she had been put-off, distant, withholding, sexually unresponsive or that they had quarreled over petty things or that she had found him boring ... I wondered that he had not found her tedious and dull on prolonged contact, but apparently not.Anyone who is "broken up with" after two years has a lot of explaining to friends and family, even casually. To not know why -- Is there another man? Was the sex THAT bad?  are not unreasonable questions. The likely match of such an eligible bachelor who has been off the market for a year or more will be common knowledge.  Mary behaved callously and coldly.

Edited January 27, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ShadowFacts]

I'm not so sure.  Cora has to deal with him after he gets all worked up by Miss Bunting.  That can't be fun for her, even if she enjoys seeing someone get him all worked up.

Yeah, I'm not sure either.  Just a little flight of fancy to try to explain why on earth Cora would approve not one but 2 or 3 more invitations.  We haven't seen any other middle class villagers, much less openly contemptuous or rude ones, as guests in the house.  Of course I stand by my belief that Sarah is really just a narrative device to propel Tom out of his stasis.  And to see Robert get worked up over anything other than his dog.

[SusanSunflower]

Ugh, what has Tom become?  In the final scene, with Mary and Isis and Grantham as Robert said, "no, no I"m not against progress, I just want it done the right way to preserve the beauty of all this!!"  -- Who's going to quarrel with that because who can quarrel with that?  But Tom is standing there like he thinks Grantham is a man of vision and wisdom, when frankly he should know by now that Grantham can be eloquent to get his own way.  Next, comes bullying and tantrums.  Grantham always has Mary in his corner, Mary's final vote. It's amazing how little skepticism Tom shows in response to Robert's blustering ego tripping.  Sarah Bunting caused Grantham to have a total meltdown at dinner in front of guests??? What a baby he is. See also his rudeness towards Cora and Mr. Bricker.  I thought everyone at table was embarrassed enough by his dragging Daisy and Mrs. Pattimore up from the kitchen on a moment's notice to .... prove a stupid point... which failed. Even Violet looked embarrassed for him. If Tom's going to be leaving or even just threatening to leave (again), the seeds of this discontent are  not visible. He reacts to Robert (and most of the rest of the family, see accepting their endless matchmaking with Bunting) like an employee, in all things. Unwilling to upset the applecart by being honest.  Sad.

Edited January 27, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Milburn Stone]

Sarah Bunting caused Grantham to have a total meltdown at dinner in front of guests??? What a baby he is.

 

You know, I was totally in Grantham's corner, but you persuade me that he could have reacted differently. If he'd been confident as a Lord and as a person, he could have simply treated her with the polite but withering condescension she deserved. That wouldn't shut her up, but he could then have smiled and responded, "Of course you feel that way. Carson, could we have a little more caviar?" That would not only have been effective (she might even have been the one to get up a leave in a huff),  it would have been more fun to watch.

 

But then, that's not really Lord Grantham. He's sensitive (in the sense of his feelings being close to the surface, and easily hurt--see his reaction to Carson being picked to head the monument committee, among other things). And that humanity is why we like him to the extent we do. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[txhorns79]

My impression from Violet's demurral wrt to the Prince and learning her husband's "true nature in time" was , in fact, her marriage was quite unhappy. She did not learn "his true nature" in time and at least part of the Prince's attraction was because she longed to leave ... the frame was a firm reminder that if she did, she would never see her children again. (It was very very long ago.) I think she feels somewhat guilty towards the Prince's (now missing) wife whom she treated like inconvenient furniture.  Perhaps we will learn more, but I'm guessing the wife was aware that she had captured her husband's heart.

 

That's an interesting perspective, and I'll admit I didn't consider it that way.  Though I will say that would put a pretty dark spin on her marriage and her life.  I viewed her "owing" something to the Princess to mean that Violet had significantly interfered in that relationship, and felt she owed the Princess for the damage Violet had caused with her interference. 

[Hanahope]

The 1920s definitely had the stick thin - no hips or breasts look, pretty much the same thing that got re-inspired by Twiggy in the 1960s-70s and then again in the 90s-00s through a lot of designer fashions. It gets interspersed with more full-figured look, like Marilyn Monroe, and has now started to resurge again with the Kim Kardashian/Nicki Minaj butt.  I heard once that fashion designers love the stick look because its easier to design/cut fashions in straight lines than have to deal with curves.

[izabella]

I heard once that fashion designers love the stick look because its easier to design/cut fashions in straight lines than have to deal with curves.

 

 

I watch a lot of Project Runway, and that is absolutely correct.  They often can't even handle designing for their model's breasts, even though they are stick thin and barely curvy.  I have seen some really bad bodices on their clothes because it apparently takes some skill to design for curves. 

[RedHackle]

Wow.  So much to tackle.

1. I know that no matter how popular a character is, the fans will inevitably turn on them - almost like a reflex.  I don't think Bates has earned a lot of the hatred he now gets - if anything, they've all but turned his character invisible.  Just having him walk into a scene to say something to Anna, have her randomly mention Greene out of the clear blue sky (world's weirdest non-sequiturs, Anna) and have him walk out again.   And as we spent the entire second season proving Bates is not a murderer, I'm going to be bitterly disappointed if it turns out he is.  I think it'd be a lot more fun if it turned out that Anna actually killed Greene, and all her babbling all this time about being worried Bates will hang for it is just subterfuge.  Not likely, but I can dream.

2. Loved how they send Moseley into a room to put away a thousand dishes, then two seconds later have him conveniently walk down the hall in time to see Baxter at the door of the room where Barrow is shooting up with hetero-juice.  Did he put away all those dishes that fast, or did he just decide not to do the task he'd been given?

3.  Tony Gillingham is even creepier than I'd thought.  Immediate thought is that after what Mary went through with Pamuk, she'd do anything to keep from being exposed as a huzzy a second time.  But I did like how shocked she looked at his reaction.  "Oh you've changed my mind by being a whiny bitch and giving me a direct order.  What woman could resist that?"  Like others, I too really wish that she'd told him what a bad lay he was.

4.  Bunting needs to FO and die forever.  Or else Julian Fellowes does for thinking this cardboard cutout of a character is remotely believable.

5.  I want to punch Farmer Brown in the face.  Tell your goddamn wife the truth, you idiot!  And if Edith doesn't stop sniveling and turn back into the somewhat likable character she was in the first couple seasons, I may scream.  You're gangsta, Edith!  You narced out your own sister, you had a baby out of wedlock and you write columns about real issues.  Stop pouting and grab your life by the pubes, already.

6. Agree with others - Carson starting to wear on my nerves a bit.  It does appear Mrs. Hughes is having the same issue and is getting ready to bite his head off again.  Love Mrs. Hughes.

7.  Finally, this has been bothering me for a bit; I love how arch Violet and Isobel are, but I think it would be more believable if they'd both softened a bit and enjoyed each others company more, at least on occasion.  At this point, as snotty as they are to each other, why are they still hanging out?  Mostly I love the show but it does irritate the crap out of me sometimes. 

[Constantinople]

What you said was basically that no one in 1924 blamed the rise of fascism in Germany on the Treaty of Versailles. That's incorrect. As for what Robert would or wouldn't read, since he's a fictional character, he can read whatever the person who writes him wants him to read. Personally, I can definitely see a landowner in the 1920s being concerned about the economic impact of a questionable treaty ending the most horrific global conflict the world had seen at the time. I'm not going to be drawn into an internet argument about facts. Keynes himself and this particular book were incredibly famous. Anyone who wants to know what people thought or knew in the 1920s can easily look that up.

It's one thing for Robert to say the Versailles treaty was too harsh.

 

It's another, for Robert to use the word fascism in 1924 to describe the National Socialist German Workers Party. It's possible, but I'm not certain.

 

In any case, it's doubtful that, at the time, Robert would have considered the world fascism as an insult.  The one party that did have the word Fascist in its name was the National Fascist Party of Italy.  Robert has never uttered a peep about that or Mussolini's March on Rome, but many members of the British establishment had positive things to say about Mussolini in the 1920s, including Churchill.

 

Nor is it clear why Robert would blame fascism on the Treaty of Versailles given that Italy was, nominally at least, one of the winners of World War I and was one of the "Big Four" at Versailles.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Constantinople

[SusanSunflower]

As I understand it, blaming the Treaty of Versaille in 1919 for WWII was part of the general rehabilitation of Germany's image after two world wars -- and spread the blame for the failure of the post-WWI leaders at Versaille to forge a lasting peace.  WWI ended in an armistice (rather than a defeat) which was not terribly satisfying for many of those who lived in countries devastated by the fighting , not only casualties but the destruction of infrastructure, like railroad lines and roads, munitions left in agricultural fields turned battle grounds. Germany's infrastructure was largely unscathed -- which was why they were "made to pay." There are revisionist views about just how much of this blame is based in reality. Still being rehashed. 

 

ETA:  for conservatives and isolationists, blaming Versaille became proxy for blaming Wilson and his idealism, League of Nations, etc. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by SusanSunflower