S01.E03: The Devil Quotes Scripture

[Syndicate]

Sure, I might have misconceptions about open marriages since I haven't been in one. But, I've read Dan Savage off and on over the years and have had acquaintances who were in a variety of types of open relationships.

 

Even so, I read Andre's encounter with the deputy mayor as Andre selling himself for some hope of winning his father's (or possibly his wife's) favor rather than as an empowered, healthy sexual act within a perfectly healthy open marriage. Even though Andre may have enjoyed reenacting the scene with his wife. 

 

My original question about how open and healthy Rhonda and Andre's relationship wasn't because I don't think open relationships can be healthy. Or that an open marriage means that anything goes. The people I knew had rules. I guess a marriage can be "open" if the rule is that the husband can sleep with anyone who helps him do his father's bidding. Last night's episode just wasn't enough evidence for me that Rhonda and Andre do in fact have an open marriage. 

 

Although I'm enjoying Andre more each week, not much about Andre inside or outside his marriage seems particularly healthy. It's had to imagine a person that would actively work to destroy his family (or encourage her husband to destroy his family) for a record company would be able to have a healthy relationship with anyone. Maybe Andre and Rhonda are a perfect match emotionally and sexually. Or maybe, they're not that good for each other at all.

Right again!  Let's not forget that she's been pushing him to squash the following:  Lucious, Cookie, Jamal, and Hakeem, so that he takes control of the company.  They are Andre's family.  Did she forget this fact?  How healthy can these two and their relationship be indeed?

[Irlandesa]

Even so, I read Andre's encounter with the deputy mayor as Andre selling himself for some hope of winning his father's (or possibly his wife's) favor rather than as an empowered, healthy sexual act within a perfectly healthy open marriage. Even though Andre may have enjoyed reenacting the scene with his wife.

I think you make a lot of good points about the health of their marriage.

 

I was reacting to the implication that I've read in some replies (I only happend to quote yours because it was close) that Rhonda is only tolerating Andre sleeping around as if she's almost a victim of that arrangement in order to get results instead of an equal participant or even instigator. Whether it's the idea of Andre being able to get classified information or the fact he could fuck someone in power making Rhonda that much closer to it, I think she's totally into it.

 

That doesn't mean I'm arguing that their marriage is necessarily a healthy one. I don't know that anyone is truly healthy on this show which is what makes it so addictive to watch.  I just don't think the root of any dysfunction is the open marriage. 

[Dusty]

 

Let's not forget that she's been pushing him to squash the following:  Lucious, Cookie, Jamal, and Hakeem, so that he takes control of the company.  They are Andre's family.

 

Well to be fair Lucious and Cookie are doing the same, except they don't even really feel like Andre is a contender in this race.  The reason I don't have a problem with her specifically joining in on this war for the company is that I don't think that she's pushing him to do anything. (Unlike Cookie and Jamal).  Andre wants to do this just as much as she wants him to do it.  Or at least that's the impression that I got from the first episode when they were talking about it.  The only ones that are really trying to fight it are Jamal and Hakeem and even they don't think Andre is actual competition. They just don't want to fight amongst themselves.  She is literally the only one in Andre's corner except for maybe Uncle Vernon. In the context of this show so far I do think that they have the most..stable relationship.  But that's not really saying a whole lot in this show.  I just haven't been shown anything to think that Rhonda and Andre aren't in this together or that she's manipulating him into it.  Which is what I totally thought was going to be the case when the show started.

 

 

I don't know that anyone is truly healthy on this show which is what makes it so addictive to watch.

I agree with this.  No one on this show is going about anything in a healthy manner but if they did there wouldn't really be a show to watch.  At least not a show like this and to be honest I don't think I'd find it as interesting.  If there was one person who was trying to go about things in a relatively healthy manner I would choose Jamal but that was a whole episode ago.  Now he's going to throw down with the rest of him.

[wanderingstar]

I thought that Cookie was going to find out about Lucious' ALS when she saw him struggling with the pill bottle. I really liked that scene, and I am digging their chemistry. But...I was also enjoying Cookie & Puma. I'd love it if he stuck around because - as someone upthread said - it'd be nice to have someone else who is in Cookie's corner.

 

Hakeem gets all the eye rolls from me. Did he forget that Jamal was  on stage with him at Leviticus? 

 

Glad Jamal stood up to Lucious.

 

Still can't stand Anika.

[marceline]

 

Although I'm enjoying Andre more each week, not much about Andre inside or outside his marriage seems particularly healthy. It's had to imagine a person that would actively work to destroy his family (or encourage her husband to destroy his family) for a record company would be able to have a healthy relationship with anyone.

 

I didn't just say they were healthy. I said they were probably the healthiest relationship on the show. That's a pretty low bar. It's like being the sanest person on One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest. So far we see them pretty much in sync. They're honest about what they want from each other and from everybody else.  So far he has shown very little emotional attachment to his family in any context other than the business. Rhonda seems to be the only one who knows about Dre's bipolar disorder (although I don't understand how that's possible).They may very well be two people who came from fucked up families and decided that they would make each other their family.

 

I'm fascinated to learn more about them and how they got together.

[Malbec]

I think Andre and Rhonda are both pretty dysfunctional, but right now they seem dysfunctional in way that matches.  To me they seem like they are exactly on the same wavelength when it comes to scheming and plotting, and they both like the qualities they bring out in each other (even if, looking in, those qualities are kind of messed up).

 

I also think there's a case of the apple not falling far from the tree with Andre.  He clearly inherited his father's cunning.  What I like about the show's set-up is that none of the sons, up until now, are really adequate to take Luscious' place.  Andre has the intelligence, Jamal has the heart, Hakeem has the boldness - a great leader needs all three.  Although it's possible that with Jamal now fully committing to taking the empire, he'll demonstrate some of those other qualities himself.

 

 

[Milz]

As others have pointed out, the show seems more "Lion In Winter" than "King Lear", and the gay son doesn't fare quite so well.

 

Danny Strong says Empire is based on both. So if they are borrowing different aspects of both LIW or KL, it just makes it better for the viewers because it will keep everyone guessing.

[Raja]

One thing about the quick trigger that networks had before this year. Jamal's turn seemed rushed only four hours into the show. But if you are looking at three weeks and a possible cancellation I can see why. The V reboot and a lot of shows are suffering from the rush to plot points.

[LydiaMoon1]

Quote

    He shot an old family friend in the face in the first episode.

 

You mean the old family friend that pulled a gun on him in his house trying to extort 3 million dollars to pay gambling debts?  That friend?  I didn't condone the murder but Bunkie wasn't an innocent bystander caught in the crossfire.  Bunkie took it there first.

Lucious didn't kill Bunkie strictly because of the incident above.  Personally, I doubt this was the first time something like this had ever occurred between them. This time though, Bunkie threatened to expose Lucious' criminal past, including the murders of four other drug dealers that he had committed. I think Lucious and Bunkie could have gotten past all the the other nonsense, but Lucious did not want to risk having his past exposed. Now, of course, we don't yet know the circumstances behind those murders, but if Lucious hadn't committed those crimes Bunkie would have had nothing to threaten him with.

 

Maybe Lucious should find a method of conflict resolution that doesn't include murder.

Edited January 23, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[Raja]

 

 

Maybe Lucious should find a method of conflict resolution that doesn't include murder.

Like taking the managers of artist to the trailer ;)

[LydiaMoon1]

LOL....or violence.  You know you are wrong.

Edited January 23, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[Ohwell]

I thought they were in Philadelphia?

I thought they were in Philadelphia, too, based on the episode description.  Although I'm confused about when they went back to NYC.

 

Also, I don't trust Puma.  He knew she'd been in the pokey for 17 years and yet he never visited her, even though he supposedly still had a thing for her?  Something just doesn't smell right.   

Edited January 23, 2015 by Ohwell

[TobinAlbers]

 

Also, I don't trust Puma.  He knew she'd been in the pokey for 17 years and yet he never visited her, even though he supposedly still had a thing for her?  Something just doesn't smell right.

 

Uh oh. What if he's the reason she got caught and sent to prison except he meant for it to be Lucious to get him out of the way so he could have Cookie. Maybe he knew about a drug drop or meet that was supposed to only have Lucious but Cookie went instead. I could see Puma being torn up over it and leaving the business. But that whole 'left the business' thing and not mentioning he sold his song to Lucious smells weird too. Methinks Puma got pushed out by Lucious because he had something on him to force him out.

 

I loved that even Rhonda had her a little hat on at Bunky's funeral and was singing along.

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

I thought they were in Philadelphia?

I think that was just for the funeral.

[Jipijapa]

Damn, and here I was shipping Puma and Cookie, and then you bring up the very good point that there's probably another shoe that's going to drop (about Puma)...

 

My God, I love Taraji Henson in this.  The whole thing where she said grace (somehow slipping in a skank reference) should alone get her an Emmy.

 

I just wished I cared more about the other two sons: Andre is just weird, and Hakeem is a spoiled brat.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Jipijapa

[Stinger97]

I just wished I cared more about the other two sons: Andre is just weird, and Hakeem is a spoiled brat.

 

I'm starting to feel that way about all three sons, honestly. I was very interested in Jamal's story at the beginning, but I'm slowly becoming tired of his constant anger. It's as if he only has a handful of emotions, and most of the time we're treated to his (understandable) disgust for his father. Hakeem, on the other hand, is a petulant brat who's full of anger, except it's all directed at his mother. And, yea, it's all just super tiring. I get that it's a soap and big on the dramatics, but the Lyons children just suck. 

 

ETA: Andre is okay, mostly because he's hot. 

[wanderingstar]

So, why did Lucious wear a white suit to Bunky's funeral? To stand out?

[Princess Sparkle]

I'm wondering who's going to find out next, and how. Becky found out by accident, but it's not the kind of illness that one can keep secret for long. If he's already having trouble with his legs and with opening the pill bottle, he will probably have to go public with it pretty soon. When Cookie saw him taking his meds, I thought she was going to get a peek at the label and look into what they're for.

Well, it's not going to be a secret for much longer if Lucious keeps saying, out loud in a regular speaking voice, "Wow, the doctor said these tremors wouldn't start for another few months!" I thought he must've told his wife until he covered when she came in. Edited January 24, 2015 by Princess Sparkle

[Syndicate]

OK, so which one of Lucious' sons will get to screw his woman, Boo Boo Kitty?  We know that one of them will get the honor simply for storyline fallout.  My money is on Jamal, yep, I said it, JAMAL!  

[Jazzy24]

So Lucious beat Jamal?

Jamal said he beat him ever since he was a baby like wow!!! I wonder did he ever beat Hakeem and Andre with the way Hakeem seems entitled and spoiled I bet Cookie was the first one to ever beat his butt.

[Tiger]

OK, so which one of Lucious' sons will get to screw his woman, Boo Boo Kitty?  We know that one of them will get the honor simply for storyline fallout.  My money is on Jamal, yep, I said it, JAMAL!

There has been nothing to suggest Jamal is or has ever been confused about his sexuality. I would hate, and probably bail on the show, is suddenly Jamal slept with a woman especially BBK.

It'd be interesting if the show did create a bi-sexual character, even better if he was a gansta rapper. But dont put that story on Jamal.

[Syndicate]

There has been nothing to suggest Jamal is or has ever been confused about his sexuality. I would hate, and probably bail on the show, is suddenly Jamal slept with a woman especially BBK.

It'd be interesting if the show did create a bi-sexual character, even better if he was a gansta rapper. But dont put that story on Jamal.

Oh I think Jamal clearly knows who he is.  I'm not suggesting confusion on his part, but perhaps wanting to stick it to his homophobic daddy instead.  Furthermore, some gay men DO sleep with women for whatever reason.  In Jamal's case, I think this show could have it happen for shock value.

[Jipijapa]

Jamal's anger doesn't bother me.  If I was gay and my dad treated me like that and said things to me like that, I'd have a chip on my shoulder too.  That said, I'm glad he finally struck out on his own.

[Tiger]

Oh I think Jamal clearly knows who he is.  I'm not suggesting confusion on his part, but perhaps wanting to stick it to his homophobic daddy instead.  Furthermore, some gay men DO sleep with women for whatever reason.  In Jamal's case, I think this show could have it happen for shock value.

While I agree that some gay men do sleep with women for whatever reason, I would rather see Bunky return as a time-travelling zombie than I would Jamal sleep with a woman, especially for revenge and especially with his step-mother.

While it would certainly be shocking, IMHO it would be totally unnecessary and would totally undermine both Jamal and Boo-Boo Kitty.

[LaChavalina]

Not to mention that Boo Boo Kitty seems to have a thing for men who are powerful and prone to fits of rage. That makes her way more likely to cheat with Andre.

[DollEyes]

  They've done it again! Just when it seems like Empire can't get better, it does; otoh, just when it seems like Lucius can't get worse, he does. His schemes affected the living and the dead alike, from his "meeting" with/beatdown on singer Veronica's cousin/now ex-manager Mel to his eulogy for Bunkie, crocodile tears and all. Lucius even managed to corrupt a child with his "men don't cry" bullshit and the $100 that followed. if that were my son, I'd tell him that real men not only do cry sometimes, they even cry at funerals. He can front and act macho in public, but if he wants to cry privately in general and in front of his mama in particular, I would neither hold it against him nor question his manhood because of it.

 

  Then there' Lucius shutting Cookie out of helping with Bunkie's funeral arrangements, as if that wouldn't piss her off nor make her suspicious. In fairness, since Lucius did kill Bunkie in cold blood, he probably thought he was doing Cookie a favor on some level, but it was much more about protecting himself than protecting her. Of course Lucius' treatment of Jamal was as disgusting as ever. The harder Jamal tries to impress Lucius, the less he seems to care, not that he ever cared that much to begin with. Jamal is right to be pissed at Lucius. He has treated Jamal like shit all his life and his behavior at the dinner and calling Jamal a "woman" at the loft were the last straws for Jamal and rightfully so. As for Jamal's possibly sleeping with a woman, my vote: "Hell no." Jamal is a gay man and the show should keep it that way.

 

  Still liking Puma. He might not be Jamal's father but I think he would be perfect for Cookie. I don't think he was the one who ratted out Lucius because it would have hurt Cookie too much. If he did it after all, I think it's because he thought he was protecting her. However, Cookie could and in retrospect, should, have thrown Lucius under the bus for her sake and the boys if the latter was the case. If "Pookie" got serious, it would not only be great for Cookie, the thought of it making Lucius' head explode and pissing off Anika in the process would be the icing on the cake.

Edited January 24, 2015 by DollEyes

[Happytobehere]

I think this episode confirms what I have been suspecting. In terms of acting, the actors who portray Boo Boo Kitty, aka Annika and Hakeem are the weak links. They continue to take me out of the show. As much as I have zero fondness for TH, he at least sells Luscious. These two make it hard for me to take them or any thing they do seriously. I fell as if the actors were because they had "the look" of what the characters are supposed to be as opposed to the acting chops they would bring yo the table.

Having said all of this. I think the show will end with the Lyon family loosing it all because they turned against each other. They will reunite as Luscious lays dying.

[GreekGeek]

I think it's a possibility that one of the sons will bed BBK, but I doubt it will be Jamal. Sure it would piss off Lucious, but he could also feel some relief-- in an "I knew you weren't really gay" kind of way. If the show does go there, the likeliest candidate to me is Hakeem. It's already established he has a thing for older women. 

[wanderingstar]

If "Pookie" got serious, it would not only be great for Cookie, the thought of it making Lucius' head explode and pissing off Anika in the process would be the icing on the cake.

 

 

YES! Oh please make this happen, writers!

[Congo]

I loved the episode but, mostly, I just want to know how the City of New York allowed the show to portray their deputy mayor as easily manipulated by sexual favors. Like, there were NYC logos on boxes in the office as Andre had the woman bent over the desk. Who signed off on that?

 

The show Boss portayed the mayor of Chicago and his staff as highly corrupt and ruthless so a NYC deputy mayor trading secrets for some hanky panky is par for the course.

[mtlchick]

Finally catching up on this show.  The  acting in this episode was kind of wonky but overall, I'm so taken in by this show.  If there is one thing Fox knows, it's creating a cheesy soapy melodrama.   

 

This show is a bunch of crazy fools.  I'm all in.  

[LolaRuns]

I don't think that it matters in these kind of shows whether the person in Luscious position is likable, but more whether they are compelling to watch and then on a second level, if they are at least believable. I would say the former is at this point still the case, I think the interaction between him and Cookie is particularly compelling to watch and his screen chemistry with Hakeem and Jamal is decent. As for the latter, So far I don' think that the show has messed that up too bad. 

 

I could see him become annoying/unwatchable if the show takes the wrong turns and focuses on the wrong things, but like I said, at this point I'm not bored by him yet. 

 

Personally I feel like the gay character being the nicest and having the most wholesome relationship almost feels like a stereotype too. I think for a lot people that makes a lot of sense in regards to motivation, as if the son has being gay as the chick on his shoulder/the negative character trait, so he decides to overcompensate by being particularly nice and well adjusted in all other regards. Writingwise that often comes across like "being gay" alone is enough to make a character and relationship interesting while a straight relationship needs other melodrama thrown on top of it to stay interesting. Now I can't say that don't like the kind of nice and likable gay characters that come out of it, I do, but in the context of this show I wonder if Jamal couldn't do with a bunch of more flaws to fit in with the other characters rather than being the chosen saint. Not to mention, if it wouldn't be realistic if he had had at least some sort of acting out period and if he didn't if he isn't majorly due for one. 

 

I'm curious whether we'll ever get a background episode on Annika and how she decided to hook up with Luscious. Somehow I picture strict parents and wanting to stick to them by hooking up with a supposed "thug". I don't particularly like watching L and Annika together but I do wonder why he does seem relatively strongely attached to her. Yes not to the extent that he doesn't still give Cookie a lot of what she wants, but still Annika also doesn't come across like just a throwawy chick to him or just somebody he just happened to be banging because she was working in his vicinity. 

[Syndicate]

I enjoy bits of humor and shock value in soap operas.  I just hope that this show doesn't use these as substitutes for good steady storytelling.  I always feel there's a danger of that happening with dramas that incorporate humor into the drama.  In hindsight, I really didn't care to know that Andre and Rhonda re-enact her husband's sex moments with other women.  Unless this skeevy moment ties into a major plot or subplot on the show, who cares?  I would much rather learn more about Dre's bipolar disorder and what might've caused it.  Also, the Bunky murder has been kind of underwhelming.  Not enough urgency or excitement in the investigation.  Someone made a great point about Jamal on another message board.  The question that was asked?  Why is Jamal such a well-adjusted adult man?  He was thrown into the garbage can and repeatedly beaten as a child by Lucious, all because Lucious didn't like his "girly" ways.  This should've made Jamal an angry young man who felt like an outsider from the beginning, and now he should not only want his father's company, but revenge for being mistreated and rejected as a child.  I guess Jamal being well-adjusted is commendable for real life purposes, but for a soap opera, Jamal being an angry unbalanced adult is a dramatic beat that this show missed.  Ironically, Andre and Hakeem seem to be the ones who are unbalanced.  

Edited January 25, 2015 by Syndicate

[DollEyes]

 

Not to get too racial here but this way of parenting is how a LOT of Black fathers used to parent. And homophobia runs DEEP. They don't like or understand "gay" and feel they have to make their boys "tough". "Take that bass outta your voice" is a common phrase used in Black households when parents feel their growing offspring are stepping outside of their place. Keep in mind that Cookie's first post-prison act of parenting was to beat Hakeem with a broom which didn't even make Lucius blink. When Hakeem went on his rant, Lucius was ready to knock him down until Anika stopped him and reminded him that the whole incident worked out favorably. I think the point is that underneath all the bling, Lucius and Cookie are "simple" "street" people. Lucius is street with very uptown, modern, progressive kids. Honestly I wish Lee Daniels had left out the trashcan incident. I get that it was his own catharsis but I feel that it had made many viewers shut down to the character of Lucius whom I feel he intended to be 3 dimensional. At this point, Lucius can walk on water, cure cancer, and carry puppies and kittens around and he still will be hated.

 

 I respectfully disagree.   As a Black woman who had a Black father, I already know about how Black fathers tend to raise their kids in general and their sons in particular. I also know all too well about the extreme homophobia in the Black community, what "take that bass outta your voice" means and I had no more of a problem with Cookie's whipping Hakeem's ass in the first episode than Lucius did because Hakeem was being a disrespectful little shit to Cookie and Cookie wasn't having it, hence the beatdown. Lucius' blasé reaction to Cookie's beating Hakeem was one of the very few times I actually agreed with him on anything. I'm glad that Lee Daniels included the trashcan incident because it was not only cathartic for him, it fulfilled his promise to expose the Black community's homophobia. Viewers can feel anyway they want about the show and its characters including Lucius, who does have his good points too, but my problem with him is that the bad far exceeds the good, especially where Jamal is concerned and unless Lucius gets over Jamal's being gay, I won't give a shit about him, no matter what he says or does.

[neciamorris]

he question that was asked? Why is Jamal such a well-adjusted adult man? He was thrown into the garbage can and repeatedly beaten as a child by Lucious, all because Lucious didn't like his "girly" ways.

I think the show answered that question in the first episode and the answer is Cookie. Jamal is the child who maintained a relationship with her while she was in jail and we saw in the first episode that she offered him as much unconditional love and support that she could from behind bars. I think that that was enough. That's also what's wrong with the other two, IMHO, the lack of Cookie. Edited January 26, 2015 by neciamorris

[leisawoo]

I think it's a possibility that one of the sons will bed BBK, but I doubt it will be Jamal. Sure it would piss off Lucious, but he could also feel some relief-- in an "I knew you weren't really gay" kind of way. If the show does go there, the likeliest candidate to me is Hakeem. It's already established he has a thing for older women.

AND, Hakeem is his fave so that would really stick it to Loo-shus!

[rue721]

I don't particularly like watching L and Annika together but I do wonder why he does seem relatively strongely attached to her. Yes not to the extent that he doesn't still give Cookie a lot of what she wants, but still Annika also doesn't come across like just a throwawy chick to him or just somebody he just happened to be banging because she was working in his vicinity. 

 

Annika seems to be good at her job, and Lucious seems to respect her opinions at work. Not that he necessarily is going to follow her advice, but he seems to take her opinions seriously at least and she's definitely not just there as ornamentation. I think that he likes having a woman with a good head on her shoulders advising/guiding him, and even though Annika's not a force of nature like Cookie is, I think that, just as that girlfriend-as-Consiliari thing was a part of Lucious and Cookie's relationship, it's part of Lucious and Annika's relationship, too. To be honest, I think that what is winning Lucious back over to Cookie is that she's a better *businesswoman* than Annika is -- I think he likes how her mind works and is being reminded what a good business partner she was and could be again. Imo, Annika needs to best Cookie *at work* if she wants to keep Lucious's eye (and his respect), but I don't think that's really occurring to her yet.

 

(I think that Andre also looks for the same thing in a woman as Lucious does. He even said flat out that he thinks Rhonda is brilliant, they talk about work/strategy *constantly,* and didn't they meet at business school? Maybe Annika and Lucious's life "at home" is similar to Rhonda and Andre's? Idk).

 

I think that at least as likely as Annika wanting to be with a "thug," is Lucious wanting to be with a debutante -- or, if that wasn't something that Lucious wanted particularly, I think it's something that *Annika* thinks he likes about her. I don't think it's any mistake that Annika brought that up when she was telling Cookie to back off. It seems like at least from Annika's perspective, what makes her more attractive than Cookie, as far as Lucious is concerned, is that she's younger and she's a debutante -- she thinks she's more of a trophy wife than Cookie would be, I guess? I don't actually think that either her age or her class gives her much of an advantage when it comes to her ability to survive/thrive in the Lyon family at this point, but I guess that's what she feels she's got to work with and so she's going to try and leverage it as hard as she can. I did like how she handled those Germans, especially with her uncomfortable, "she's visiting...from prison," though. It'll be interesting to see how she and Cookie interact once the ALS starts taking more of a toll and Lucious won't be able to be so present at work. Neither Cookie nor Annika seem like they're going to let that power vacuum go to waste (neither does Rhonda). Poor Jamal, Michael seems like the least ambitious of all the Lyon men's SOs. (I'm exempting Hakeem for now, because I don't even know what to say).

[Tiger]

Poor Jamal, Michael seems like the least ambitious of all the Lyon men's SOs. (I'm exempting Hakeem for now, because I don't even know what to say).

Even if it's just going to college or art school full-time, I hope they establish that Michael is doing something. I think it does a lot for Rhonda and for Andre that she has her own career, so I hope they do the same thing for Jamal & Michael.

[aprilbabe]

Rue721: I agree with everything you said. Lucious clearly likes smart woman where he can partnership with. He and Cookie and he and Anika have same dynamic, although Cookie and Anika are opposites on the surface and their approach is different, I agree if she wants to "keep her man" so to speak, she needs to not use superficial things like being a debutant and younger. She needs to fight at the office, because once Lucious starts to side/ favor Cookie,  Anikas losing the battle.

Edited January 26, 2015 by aprilbabe

[Syndicate]

I think the show answered that question in the first episode and the answer is Cookie. Jamal is the child who maintained a relationship with her while she was in jail and we saw in the first episode that she offered him as much unconditional love and support that she could from behind bars. I think that that was enough. That's also what's wrong with the other two, IMHO, the lack of Cookie.

I certainly hope the show eventually elaborates on all of this.  Like I said, I'm cool with humor but I want drama first and foremost.  It is a soap opera after all.

[DollEyes]

  Re Hakeem, he's got more issues than National Geographic and most of them are about Cookie in one way or another, otherwise he wouldn't have spent over a year creeping with Camilla, a woman who's close to Cookie's age, if not older. Looks like Hakeem's fling with Tiana might be just for show as much on his part as hers, if not more. As for Hakeem's claim that his success at Leviticus was "all [him]," I think that Jamal would/should strongly disagree. Lucius not giving Jamal the credit he deserves is bad enough, but Hakeem's not doing it is fucked up. Hakeem may be good, but Jamal is better and ignoring it is going to backfire on Hakeem way sooner than later. About Andre, he got busy in more ways than one where Bunkie's murder investigation is concerned. When Andre said that his inside source at the Mayor's office was the Deputy Mayor, he meant inside in every sense of the word. However, the real shocker wasn't that Rhonda knew about it-it's that it turned her on. Andre and Rhonda's open marriage might work for them in some ways, but cause problems in others because the more partners they have, the more risk there is of Andre's bipolar disorder being exposed, ruining his chances of taking over the label,  not that he deserves it. I predict that Andre's attempts to turn Hakeem and Jamal against each other will not only backfire, if one of them learns the truth about Andre's condition, his marriage or both and uses them to their advantage, it would serve Andre and Rhonda right.

 

  On the Jamal front, still digging him. He is living proof that "sane" and "dull" aren't mutually exclusive. Soaps need characters like Jamal, a true "White hat" (or at least light gray). Dallas had Bobby, Dynasty had Krystle, Scandal has David and now Empire has Jamal- a good, but not "perfect" person who has flaws and makes mistakes, but isn't defined by nor consumed by them. Soaps thrive on drama, but sometimes too much crazy can be just as boring as not enough. Given Jamal's childhood, I'm surprised he's not more messed up; otoh, music could be his therapy. Jamal could be using music to express most of his feelings, which IMO is a much healthier way than what Andre and Hakeem do to express some of theirs. Jamal's rendition of Puma's song was beautiful, not that Lucius appreciated it nor Jamal. Lucius undermined Jamal several ways, whether it was his general homophobia, his rudeness to Michael at the dinner or his wanting to give "Up All Night," a song that, as it turned out, Lucius already owns despite his claim of hating it, to someone else. Lucius playing the money card one time too many and calling Jamal "a woman" were the last straws for Jamal. Lucius crossed too many lines with Jamal that night alone for Jamal to let him get away with it again. When it comes to Jamal, "bully" is the kindest word I've got for him. Given his illness, Lucius should try to make things better, not worse with Jamal before it's too late.

 

  Last, but never, ever least, there's Cookie, who showed once again that her fierceness knows no bounds. Leave it to Cookie to turn the simple act of saying grace to comedy gold. Then there' Puma, the blast from her past. Puma is not only cute and talented, he works with at-risk youth. Puma uses his fame for good for the right reasons. He would be perfect for Cookie now. Loving a guy like Lucius cost Cookie 17 years of her life, among other things, therefore being with Puma could only be an upgrade, the way I see it. About Anika, she actually impressed me this week. Anika is smart enough not to underestimate Cookie, hence her hiring the private eye to spy on her. Cookie and Anika's encounter in the hallway after the dinner was pure soap goodness. Anika and Cookie would make perfect frenemies.

 

 

I hope not. That's just too much of a cop out. The other son's maybe, but not Jamal. I just don't like the idea of the gay son not being Lucius. I could just see Lucioius now talking about no wonder he's gay, he isn't is. He won't have to deal with Jamal and his sexuality if he finds out he isn't is. Lucius would get to wipe his  hand clean and Jamal is no longer in the running. I wouldn't put it past him to accuse Cookie though.

 

  I respectfully disagree. I don't think having Jamal not being Lucius' biological son would be "a cop-out." This is a prime-time soap after all and they thrive on drama and I believe a "Who's the Daddy?" plotline on this show could work. I also believe that Puma being Jamal's biological father could still work because Lucius would still be Jamal's father, just not biologically. Lucius might try to "blame" Cookie and Puma for Jamal's being gay, but Cookie wouldn't let him because of all the hundreds of millions, if not billions, of straight parents with gay kids, plus she could blackmail Lucius if he tries to push Jamal out of what IMO is rightfully his, especially if she finds out that Lucius killed Bunkie. Heaven help Lucius if that happens. If Puma were Jamal's bio dad, Jamal could have a father whom he could be proud of, who could be proud of him. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by DollEyes

[aprilbabe]

 

  I respectfully disagree. I don't think having Jamal not being Lucius' biological son would be "a cop-out." This is a prime-time soap after all and they thrive on drama and I believe a "Who's the Daddy?" plotline on this show could work. I also believe that Puma being Jamal's biological father could still work because Lucius would still be Jamal's father, just not biologically. Lucius might try to "blame" Cookie and Puma for Jamal's being gay, but Cookie wouldn't let him because of all the hundreds of millions, if not billions, of straight parents with gay kids, plus she could blackmail Lucius if he tries to push Jamal out of what IMO is rightfully his, especially if she finds out that Lucius killed Bunkie. Heaven help Lucius if that happens. If Puma were Jamal's bio dad, Jamal could have a father whom he could be proud of, who could be proud of him. 

That would be nice and really great for Jamal. Which is why I'd bet money on it not happening.

Lucious is an ass he barely claims Jamal as it is, if Jamal was not biologically his no way would he still consider him is son. And if Lucious found out Cookie cheated on him and got pregnant, I doubt she would even think to blackmail Lucious.

Either way I doubt Cookie cheated, she seems extremely loyal.

Puma is a nice sweet good guy, and he would def be my choice, I don't know about Cookie though. Puma seems is probably the type of guy that if Cookie told him sky was purple with red stripes he be like okay baby you're right the sky is purple with red stripes. That would probably bore Cookie.

Edited January 26, 2015 by aprilbabe

[LolaRuns]

If Puma fathered anyone, wouldn't it be much meaner if it was Hakeem, L's favorite?

[JBC344]

One actually quiet, sweet moment that I wanted to bring attention to was Andre throwing Cookie a bone and giving her a heads up about the songwriters that were visiting Empire.  Andre saw that Cookie had a problem and stepped in very much "older son mode" and pointed his mother in the right direction.

 

That small moment stood out to me more than most of the other scenes tonight.  Andre just showing Cookie a little kindness.

[Timetoread]

 I respectfully disagree.   As a Black woman who had a Black father, I already know about how Black fathers tend to raise their kids in general and their sons in particular. I also know all too well about the extreme homophobia in the Black community, what "take that bass outta your voice" means and I had no more of a problem with Cookie's whipping Hakeem's ass in the first episode than Lucius did because Hakeem was being a disrespectful little shit to Cookie and Cookie wasn't having it, hence the beatdown. Lucius' blasé reaction to Cookie's beating Hakeem was one of the very few times I actually agreed with him on anything. I'm glad that Lee Daniels included the trashcan incident because it was not only cathartic for him, it fulfilled his promise to expose the Black community's homophobia. Viewers can feel anyway they want about the show and its characters including Lucius, who does have his good points too, but my problem with him is that the bad far exceeds the good, especially where Jamal is concerned and unless Lucius gets over Jamal's being gay, I won't give a shit about him, no matter what he says or does.

 

I am also a Black woman who had/has a Black father.  If the purpose of this show is for Lee Daniels to blow the lid off of the Black community's homophobia, then he also needs to attack the church - which is the fuel behind a lot of homophobia.  And your summation of Lucius actually proved my point - to many he is just a mustache twirling villain - his amusement at Hakeem's whooping notwithstanding - and there is only one direction for him to go as a character.  Since this one act is the foundation on which Lucius is built, and, as someone noted above, Jamal is to written as sainted, then narratively I see them in a corner called "trite" with Lucius.  But then again, this being a soap and all, maybe Lucius will die in a  non-ALS manner and it will turn into a whole "Who shot JR?" thing.  Again trite.  I just hope not because I enjoy not only the show in general but having a morally ambiguous character where you don't immediately know either his motivations or his limitations.

 

Rue721: I agree with everything you said. Lucious clearly likes smart woman where he can partnership with. He and Cookie and he and Anika have same dynamic, although Cookie and Anika are opposites on the surface and their approach is different, I agree if she wants to "keep her man" so to speak, she needs to not use superficial things like being a debutant and younger. She needs to fight at the office, because once Lucious starts to side/ favor Cookie,  Anikas losing the battle.

 

This bothers me because I hate the concept that women need to fight over a man.  Anika is smart, beautiful, and competent - it is not necessary for her to stoop to such levels, and a TRUE debutante would not.  She needs to tell Lucius (not Cookie) bluntly, "I get it that you and Cookie have history and children between you, but I am not going to tolerate being her whipping board, nor accept ANY disrespect from ANYBODY in MY house.  If I am your woman, then act like it.  If Cookie is your woman, then I will leave."  That simple.  To quote Bill Withers,  "You're too much for one (wo)man, but not enough for two."  This business of some dude (usually not even worth all that fighting) watching two women degrade each other and embarrass themselves for his favor makes me sick!  End of rant, LOL.

[dirtypop90]

I don't think that was Andre being kind. He wants Jamal to have a hit song so he'll be competition for Hakeem.

[aprilbabe]

This bothers me because I hate the concept that women need to fight over a man.  Anika is smart, beautiful, and competent - it is not necessary for her to stoop to such levels, and a TRUE debutante would not.  She needs to tell Lucius (not Cookie) bluntly, "I get it that you and Cookie have history and children between you, but I am not going to tolerate being her whipping board, nor accept ANY disrespect from ANYBODY in MY house.  If I am your woman, then act like it.  If Cookie is your woman, then I will leave."  That simple.  To quote Bill Withers,  "You're too much for one (wo)man, but not enough for two."  This business of some dude (usually not even worth all that fighting) watching two women degrade each other and embarrass themselves for his favor makes me sick!  End of rant, LOL.

Oh I agree. It is Lucious place to set boundries and her issue shoud be mostly with how Lucious never stands up for her or defends her to Cookie. Lucious lets Cookie do what she pleases. Cookie sat at the head of HER table, in HER house, and her man didn't say boo to Cookie. My anger would be towards Lucious if I was Anika

[rue721]

I am also a Black woman who had/has a Black father.  If the purpose of this show is for Lee Daniels to blow the lid off of the Black community's homophobia, then he also needs to attack the church - which is the fuel behind a lot of homophobia.  And your summation of Lucius actually proved my point - to many he is just a mustache twirling villain - his amusement at Hakeem's whooping notwithstanding - and there is only one direction for him to go as a character.  Since this one act is the foundation on which Lucius is built, and, as someone noted above, Jamal is to written as sainted, then narratively I see them in a corner called "trite" with Lucius.  But then again, this being a soap and all, maybe Lucius will die in a  non-ALS manner and it will turn into a whole "Who shot JR?" thing.  Again trite.  I just hope not because I enjoy not only the show in general but having a morally ambiguous character where you don't immediately know either his motivations or his limitations.

 

 

This bothers me because I hate the concept that women need to fight over a man.  Anika is smart, beautiful, and competent - it is not necessary for her to stoop to such levels, and a TRUE debutante would not.  She needs to tell Lucius (not Cookie) bluntly, "I get it that you and Cookie have history and children between you, but I am not going to tolerate being her whipping board, nor accept ANY disrespect from ANYBODY in MY house.  If I am your woman, then act like it.  If Cookie is your woman, then I will leave."  That simple.  To quote Bill Withers,  "You're too much for one (wo)man, but not enough for two."  This business of some dude (usually not even worth all that fighting) watching two women degrade each other and embarrass themselves for his favor makes me sick!  End of rant, LOL.

 

Annika and Cookie are both ambitious women, and what I think they're fighting for control over is the *business.* Afaik, Empire still hasn't gone public, and Lucious has control over it. He's the one who holds the kings to the kingdom per se. As long as he holds that power, he's going to be at the center of any fight over the business.

 

I don't think Annika and Cookie are fighting or will fight for their place by Lucious's side in terms of Lucious as a man, but they *will* fight to be at Empire's helm -- and why shouldn't they? Annika is high up in the company and Cookie is the one who laid the foundations for it to exist at all. They have as much of a claim on it as any of the Lyon sons do or even as much as Lucious himself does, and both of them probably have more business sense than any of the Lyon men.

 

That's where Lucious really screwed the pooch with Jamal, imo. Jamal genuinely cared about his personal relationship with Lucious (or their lack of one, rather), so when Lucious tried to jerk the purse strings to make him dance instead of offering him anything having to do with a better father/son relationship, Jamal didn't give a shit.

 

I think that Annika is miscalculating by underestimating how much Lucious cares about business, and I think Lucious is miscalculating by underestimating how much his sons care about their family. But for all the characters, I think their priorities are a mix of family and business.

[aprilbabe]

I dont think Cookie is currently fighting for Lucious. She's fighting to regain her place in that family and the business. (Although based on Taraji's interviews, I think we are going to see that she does still love and maybe want him, Tariji strongly hinted at that)

However Anika in my opinion seems to be fighting for her place by Lucious side. Cookie hasn't given any indication that she wants Lucious, but Anikas repsponse to Cookie isn't one that is threatened from a business standpoint, but she is threatened as a woman in the relationship. I mean Kitty coming out in her underwear after she had gotten dressed had nothing to do with business and everything to so with staking her claim on her man. I don't think Anika takes Cookie seriously as businesswoman yet. She is underestimating her, so as of right now Anika's reaction to Cookie has nothing to do with business, but more to do with feeling threatening and insecure in her relationship.

Edited January 26, 2015 by aprilbabe

[jsbt]

There's always going to be people who hate Lucious, and he does do some awful things. But there's more to him than that, and that's not just in Terrence Howard's performance. I think he's a fascinating individual - you can feel for him and hate him at the same time, like the best of the morally gray soap patriarchs. He was (IMO) genuinely broken up at Bunky's funeral, but he was also protecting himself. I root for both Lucious and Jamal (and Cookie).

Edited January 26, 2015 by jsbt