S01.E03: The Devil Quotes Scripture

[GrtGzu]

I was watching from my little 13 inch TVR in my bedroom last night and couldn't make out what the text messages between Naomi and Hakeem said.  Did anyone catch those?

 

I have a 27" and I still couldn't read the shit......Anybody else?

[Malbec]

That's the problem I have with Cookie as a parent.  When "Intervention" was on, I always noticed that the parent gave all their love, time,energy and money to the addict child, while the non addict child was neglected.  Just because you have one son that's "set" and another one you don't know (not Hakeem's fault), doesn't mean you should shower you attention on the one child that you perceive as weak.

 

However, the good part is that Cookie's influence was what made Jamal finally grow a pair and tell his father to fuck off.  He should have done that before, when Cookie arranged that press conference for him to come out.

 

I agree and I think this also works as a secondary critique of Luscious' homophobia.  Luscious is so fixated on Jamal as his "problem" son that he's completely oblivious to Andre and Hakeem's much, much deeper damage.  

 

What I love about this show is that this kind of thing is SO depressingly common in even the most ordinary families, where kids get assigned "good child," "problem child," "happy child," type of roles in the family and it's hell whether you're trying to live up to your assigned role or escape it.

[Sweets McGee]

I was watching from my little 13 inch TVR in my bedroom last night and couldn't make out what the text messages between Naomi and Hakeem said.  Did anyone catch those?

 

Same problem here - 47 inch TV and about 10 feet away, without my glasses on! :-P

[Milz]

That's the problem I have with Cookie as a parent.  When "Intervention" was on, I always noticed that the parent gave all their love, time,energy and money to the addict child, while the non addict child was neglected.  Just because you have one son that's "set" and another one you don't know (not Hakeem's fault), doesn't mean you should shower you attention on the one child that you perceive as weak.

 

However, the good part is that Cookie's influence was what made Jamal finally grow a pair and tell his father to fuck off.  He should have done that before, when Cookie arranged that press conference for him to come out.

 

Squeaky wheel gets the oil? Last school year one of our boys was having difficulty with math, the other wasn't having any difficulty with his school work. Was it wrong for Mr. Milz and I to spend extra homework time with him?

 

Anyhow, based on what Cookie said in the first episode, she didn't force Andre to visit her in prison. And it doesn't look like she forced Jamal or Hakeem to visit her either----leaving that decision for them (and Lucious) to make. Furthermore, it doesn't look like Lucious encouraged the boys to visit her (Hakeem tells Lucious he was happy Lucious kept him away from Cookie). So Cookie's parenting seems to based on the idea of guidance rather than "forcing". Based upon what Jamal's said, Lucious' parenting is "I'll beat you into doing the right thing."

[Raja]

Fox was advertising this as "with limited commercial interruptions"

It did seem like they passed through natural cut to commercial scenes to me. Much like on oldies stations cutting up old TV shows with a different commercial break schedule.

 

I think the featured song was the weakest so far. But putting out original songs week in and out has to be tough, even if using an old Puma song. My wife being a big fan of Cuba Gooding Jr, hopes it gets a reoccurring role. Between his TV and direct to video movies maybe a future love interest for Cookie.

[pembroke]

I was watching from my little 13 inch TVR in my bedroom last night and couldn't make out what the text messages between Naomi and Hakeem said.  Did anyone catch those?

 

Based on my memory, Camilla sent a text to Hakeem that said something like, "Where are you? Let's meet up". 

 

Hakeem responded that he was sick in bed and missed her long legs around him.

 

Camilla responded with something like, "Turn around. They are behind you."

[SimoneS]

Rhonda and Andre definitely share a cuckold fetish. She was turned on when he started acting out having sex with the other woman. I am really enjoying that we are seeing an open, yet loving marriage on tv. IMO, Andre is definitely not a stereotype as some people were saying last week.

 

Why did Lucious invite Cookie to dinner?

 

He had to know that it would be unfavorable to Anika. Also, he told Anika to let Cookie sit at the head of the table. 

 

I think that Lucious invited Cookie to dinner because he felt bad about suspecting that she was betraying him to the feds. Although, i bet that was just the excuse that he used in his head. He definitely seems to want Cookie in his (and the boys) life despite his annoyance with her and claiming otherwise. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by SimoneS

[Milz]

I think that Lucious invited Cookie to dinner because he felt bad about suspecting that she was betraying him to the feds. Although, i bet that was just the excuse that he used in his head. He definitely seems to want Cookie in his (and the boys) life despite his annoyance with her and claiming otherwise. 

 

Which makes me wonder what were the reason(s) Lucious divorced Cookie in the first place. I don't buy the "drug dealing wife in jail would harm career" reason even more since we learned Lucious, himself, had a criminal past (you don't have a parole officer because you didn't go to jail). I'm beginning to think Cookie's drug money wasn't the only drug money that helped start Empire.

[BestestAuntEver]

I think that Lucious invited Cookie to dinner because he felt bad about suspecting that she was betraying him to the feds. Although, i bet that was just the excuse that he used in his head. He definitely seems to want Cookie in his (and the boys) life despite his annoyance with her and claiming otherwise.

ITA, Lucious definitely still has the feels for, Cookie. I think that's why he didn't put up any fuss about Cookie sitting at the head of the table. Lucious is always touching, Cookie. I don't know if it's direction or some thing TH is doing on his own but u like that Lucious does it.

Andre and Rhonda slayed me! I about died when she had Andre to call her by the assistant DA's name. It's crazy but seems to work for them.

TPH, can wear the hell out of a hat.

I rarely like Cuba in roles but I enjoyed him here and I enjoyed the vibe between him a Cookie.

Cookie should have asked Lucious why she bought the song from Puma? Then she should have asked why he hasn't done anything with it. There's a story there. Lucious asking if Puma still has feelings for her proved it to me

Is Cookie informing on the same guy Lucious considers to be his Rival? I haven’t rewatched yet but I thought the name Agent Carter gave and Lucious stated were the same. Lol, so much happens in the scenes that I've Ben rewatching to catch the nuances inn various scenes.

Lucious messed up big time. He kept kicking Jamal and now Jamal is ready to strike back. Jamal has that fire in his belly and he's out for blood.

[GrtGzu]

But did anybody catch what Lucious said to Jamal? He told him that he didn't hate him, he just didn't UNDERSTAND him and why he's the way he is (paraphrasing here, but the word UNDERSTAND is what stuck out like a sore thumb).....How many parents of homosexual children have said it to THEIR kids?

[Ohwell]

I wonder why Puma didn't tell Cookie that Lucious bought the song.

 

Also, who knows about Lucious' ALS?

[DearEvette]

I don't know that we can look at Cookie's current mode of parenting as actual parenting, though.  She missed the kids' formative years for the most part.  These are now grown men who had already developed their own personalities in her absence.  She was in prison on drug charges and was expected to be in there for at least 10 more years.  She had no power to force anyone to do anything.  She could insist, rail, threaten etc. but she couldn't really do anything.  In the end, Lucious was the custodial parent.  It was in his power and his alone to make sure the kids had some sort of relationship with their mother. 

 

In reality, what can Cookie do as a parent to these men?  She can beat Hakeem with a broom all day, but in the end what would that really accomplish?  Only Jamal is really receptive to her even on a person-to-person level, nevermind as a son to a mother.  It is human nature to want to feel  needed.  In this case I think Cookie figures Hakeem and Dre don't need her as much as Jamal does.  Maybe as the show goes on she'll realize that each of her other sons in their own way need her as well.

[luckyroll3]

I wonder why Puma didn't tell Cookie that Lucious bought the song.

 

Also, who knows about Lucious' ALS?

I wondered this as well.  Why would he give her a song form Jamal that he no longer had the rights too?  Seemed odd.

[BestestAuntEver]

I wonder why Puma didn't tell Cookie that Lucious bought the song.

Also, who knows about Lucious' ALS?

Spitem Forcing Lucious' hand? Didn't care and just wanted to remind Cookie how he felt about her?

I think Becky, Lucious ' assistant is the only one who knows.

[Ohwell]

Ok thanks.  I do remember now that Becky knows.   

 

Regarding Puma and the song, I just don't think that's something Puma would forget telling Cookie just because he's so enthralled with her.  He had to know through the grapevine that Cookie and Lucious were divorced, and he might even know about some of the relationship dynamics in the Lyons family, e.g., that Cookie wants to further Jamal's career.  So I just found that nondisclosure to be rather odd.

[Neurochick]

Squeaky wheel gets the oil? Last school year one of our boys was having difficulty with math, the other wasn't having any difficulty with his school work. Was it wrong for Mr. Milz and I to spend extra homework time with him?

 

Anyhow, based on what Cookie said in the first episode, she didn't force Andre to visit her in prison. And it doesn't look like she forced Jamal or Hakeem to visit her either----leaving that decision for them (and Lucious) to make. Furthermore, it doesn't look like Lucious encouraged the boys to visit her (Hakeem tells Lucious he was happy Lucious kept him away from Cookie). So Cookie's parenting seems to based on the idea of guidance rather than "forcing". Based upon what Jamal's said, Lucious' parenting is "I'll beat you into doing the right thing."

 

I see your point but the problem is that if a child sees a sibling getting all the attention because they have a problem, the message is, "we'll spend more time with you, if you have problems."  

 

But Cookie's parenting is a heck of a lot better than Lucious'.

[Timetoread]

I seem to be Lucius' only fan.  Partly because narratively and artistically I HATE villains that are 100% villain - everything they do is evil.  They eat, sleep and drink evil.  They don't love their mothers, wives, or children.  Wrong in this, wrong in everything.  In real life people are much more complex and very few people are acting in the interest of evil, they do have their reasons.  True some are sociopaths, but I don't get that vibe from Lucius. I think so many of his actions are formed around his conflicting feelings for Jamal. Is there reason at all to pit the boys against each other if he has a clear cut favorite?  Of course not.  I honestly believe that Lucius also sees that Jamal is the most like himself and he KNOWS that Jamal is the most talented.  And yes he LOVES Jamal, very much so, and he seemed hurt by Jamal's rejection of him.  He just CAN'T accept that Jamal is gay.  It hurts his ego in a deep way - like it's a failure on his part and something that needs to be excised.  He's tried to shame it out of Jamal and he's tried to be beat it out of Jamal but the more he pushes the further away Jamal goes.  He set up this contest so that Jamal will step up (lose that pesky gay habit) and prove himself, instead Jamal removed himself from the competition completely.  I really believe that Lucius wants Jamal to take over but needs him to do what is necessary to be the "face" of Empire.  Now that he is dying he is desperate to "fix" that boy before it's too late.  I honestly teared up when Lu came on his own to see Jamal.  It confirmed out and out what I'd suspected.  He loves his son.  But as with other things, he doesn't know how to make happen what he needs and resorts to thugness and bullying to get his way.  It's why I give Lu a pass on so much - Cookie really was the brains of their outfit and now that she is back, I forsee big changes for ALL of her boys, including Lucius.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Cuba Gooding Jr.!  Yeah, I know he pretty much squander any opportunities he got after winning an Oscar (Daddy Day Camp?  Boat Trip?  Freaking Snow Dogs!  Come on, man!)

 

I don't blame Cuba Gooding for taking what jobs and money he was offered.  I don't think he's ever been in a position to dictate some fantastic career. 

 

I still love Porscha, her look, her clothes, her behaviour, everything.

[aprilbabe]

I seem to be Lucius' only fan.  Partly because narratively and artistically I HATE villains that are 100% villain - everything they do is evil.  They eat, sleep and drink evil.  They don't love their mothers, wives, or children.  Wrong in this, wrong in everything.  In real life people are much more complex and very few people are acting in the interest of evil, they do have their reasons.  True some are sociopaths, but I don't get that vibe from Lucius. I think so many of his actions are formed around his conflicting feelings for Jamal. Is there reason at all to pit the boys against each other if he has a clear cut favorite?  Of course not.  I honestly believe that Lucius also sees that Jamal is the most like himself and he KNOWS that Jamal is the most talented.  And yes he LOVES Jamal, very much so, and he seemed hurt by Jamal's rejection of him.  He just CAN'T accept that Jamal is gay.  It hurts his ego in a deep way - like it's a failure on his part and something that needs to be excised.  He's tried to shame it out of Jamal and he's tried to be beat it out of Jamal but the more he pushes the further away Jamal goes.  He set up this contest so that Jamal will step up (lose that pesky gay habit) and prove himself, instead Jamal removed himself from the competition completely.  I really believe that Lucius wants Jamal to take over but needs him to do what is necessary to be the "face" of Empire.  Now that he is dying he is desperate to "fix" that boy before it's too late.  I honestly teared up when Lu came on his own to see Jamal.  It confirmed out and out what I'd suspected.  He loves his son.  But as with other things, he doesn't know how to make happen what he needs and resorts to thugness and bullying to get his way.  It's why I give Lu a pass on so much - Cookie really was the brains of their outfit and now that she is back, I forsee big changes for ALL of her boys, including Lucius.

Somethings I hate Lucious and think God just hurry up and die from his disease, but sometimes I dont. And I like you do believe that he loves Jamal and knows Jamal is the most talented. Even Andre mentioned in the first episode that Lucious loved Hakeem AND Jamal more than him. Which is why Jamal being gay frustrates him and makes him so angry. He just doesn't get it, or him. If Jamal were straight, Hakeem wouldn't have a chance at the company. And the show is making a point to show they are just alike. Im predicting in the end Lucious give Empire to Cookie and Jamal.

[DollEyes]

Timetoread:  I respectfully disagree. I don't believe that Lucius loves Jamal as much as he loves controlling him, whether it's telling him to "take the bass out of his voice" when he confronted Lucius in the first episode, blackmailing him to stay in the closet in the previous one or his trivializing his performance of Puma's song in this one. Lucius has physically, emotionally and/or mentally abused Jamal for most of his life, using love, or his version of it, as his excuse. Case in point: the trash can incident. 

 

  Lucius' idea of Jamal's doing what's best for Empire is Jamal's going back in the closet and/or turning straight, neither of which I see happening anytime soon, if ever, nor should they.  Lucius has brought Jamal's rejection of him on himself.  Lucius' visiting Jamal was much more about covering his own ass and bullying Jamal than it was about doing right by him. Thank Heaven Jamal has had enough of Lucius' bullshit and is going to take the fight to him. Lucius is going to learn the hard way that Jamal isn't the punk-ass bitch that he thinks he is. With Cookie and Michael on Jamal's side, something tells me that Lucius doesn't stand a chance.

 

  Regarding Michael, I want to know more about him, but since the series is only three weeks old, I think we'll find out soon enough. I still have my doubts about Michael, but to his credit he did leave with Jamal, so I think Michael does love him, or at least cares deeply about him.

 

 I like Puma. Based on what I've seen so far, this is easily Cuba Gooding Jr.'s best performance since Jerry Maguire. I think that Puma and Cookie ("Pookie?") not only have chemistry, I think that Puma could be Jamal's biological father.

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

I think the featured song was the weakest so far. But putting out original songs week in and out has to be tough, even if using an old Puma song.

Agreed, the song sounded dated just like Jamal said.

 

Also when a guy has to say "I'm a MAN" then it makes me question whether or not they actually are.

Ordinarily, I'd agree, but this was in response to Lush repeatedly questioning his manhood, calling him derogatory names, and insinuating that gay men are not men, not just to Jamal and Michael, but in front of the family. He goes on further to joke about it, and claim not to understand Jamal's sexuality, and it pushed Jamal over the edge. If my father constantly questioned my manhood, and called my choices sissified and unmanly, I'd react the same way. Lush's antiquated views on homosexuality are beyond annoying, glad Jamal finally stepped to him.

[Milz]

I see your point but the problem is that if a child sees a sibling getting all the attention because they have a problem, the message is, "we'll spend more time with you, if you have problems."  

 

But Cookie's parenting is a heck of a lot better than Lucious'.

 

I guess it depends on the kind of attention. If Hakeem and Andre saw Lucious hitting Jamal or berating Jamal whenever he showed any "feminine" qualities, I would think that those two would try to keep anything that they believe Lucious views as negative away from him.

 

And as someone mentioned up thread. Andre, Jamal and Hakeem are all adults now. Their relationship with Cookie will be different now than what it was when they were still children.

 

I seem to be Lucius' only fan.  Partly because narratively and artistically I HATE villains that are 100% villain - everything they do is evil.  They eat, sleep and drink evil.  They don't love their mothers, wives, or children.  Wrong in this, wrong in everything.  In real life people are much more complex and very few people are acting in the interest of evil, they do have their reasons.  True some are sociopaths, but I don't get that vibe from Lucius. I think so many of his actions are formed around his conflicting feelings for Jamal. Is there reason at all to pit the boys against each other if he has a clear cut favorite?  Of course not.  I honestly believe that Lucius also sees that Jamal is the most like himself and he KNOWS that Jamal is the most talented.  And yes he LOVES Jamal, very much so, and he seemed hurt by Jamal's rejection of him.  He just CAN'T accept that Jamal is gay.  It hurts his ego in a deep way - like it's a failure on his part and something that needs to be excised.  He's tried to shame it out of Jamal and he's tried to be beat it out of Jamal but the more he pushes the further away Jamal goes.  He set up this contest so that Jamal will step up (lose that pesky gay habit) and prove himself, instead Jamal removed himself from the competition completely.  I really believe that Lucius wants Jamal to take over but needs him to do what is necessary to be the "face" of Empire.  Now that he is dying he is desperate to "fix" that boy before it's too late.  I honestly teared up when Lu came on his own to see Jamal.  It confirmed out and out what I'd suspected.  He loves his son.  But as with other things, he doesn't know how to make happen what he needs and resorts to thugness and bullying to get his way.  It's why I give Lu a pass on so much - Cookie really was the brains of their outfit and now that she is back, I forsee big changes for ALL of her boys, including Lucius.

 

This show seems to have King Lear in mind (and other Shakespearean plays too). If it follows King Lear, then Jamal is Cordelia and will prove to be the best "son"  and most loyal/loving son to Lucious. (And if it follows King Lear and other novels that have used the King Lear theme, Jamal, Hakeem and Andre will plot against and kill each by the end of the series.)

[Timetoread]

Timetoread:  I respectfully disagree. I don't believe that Lucius loves Jamal as much as he loves controlling him, whether it's telling him to "take the bass out of his voice" when he confronted Lucius in the first episode, blackmailing him to stay in the closet in the previous one or his trivializing his performance of Puma's song in this one. Lucius has physically, emotionally and/or mentally abused Jamal for most of his life, using love, or his version of it, as his excuse. Case in point: the trash can incident.

 

Not to get too racial here but this way of parenting is how a LOT of Black fathers used to parent.  And homophobia runs DEEP.  They don't like or understand "gay" and feel like they have to make their boys "tough".  "Take that bass out of your voice" is a common phrase used in black households when parents feel that their growing male offspring are stepping outside of their place.  Keep in mind that Cookie's first post-prison act of parenting was to beat Hakeem black and blue with a broom which didn't even make Lucius blink.  When Hakeem went on his rant, Lu was ready to knock him down until Anika stopped him and reminded him that the whole incident had worked out favorably.  I think the point is that underneath all the bling, Lucius and Cookie are "simple" "street" people.  Lucius is street with very uptown, modern, progressive kids.  Honestly I wish Lee Daniels had left out the trash can incident.  I get that it was his own catharsis but I feel that it has made many viewers shut down to the character of Lucius completely,  who I feel he intended to be 3 dimensional.  At this point, Lucius can walk on water, cure cancer, and carry puppies and kittens around and he will still be hated.  So in three episodes there is nowhere left for this character to go.

 

This show seems to have King Lear in mind (and other Shakespearean plays too). If it follows King Lear, then Jamal is Cordelia and will prove to be the best "son"  and most loyal/loving son to Lucious. (And if it follows King Lear and other novels that have used the King Lear theme, Jamal, Hakeem and Andre will plot against and kill each by the end of the series.)

 

I hope that the show picks it's own path so that, three episodes in as mentioned above, we don't know how the entire story is going to play out.

[aprilbabe]

 

 I think that Puma and Cookie ("Pookie?") not only have chemistry, I think that Puma could be Jamal's biological father.

I hope not. Thats too much of a cop out. The other son's maybe, but not Jamal. I just don't like the idea of the gay son not being Lucious. I could just see Lucioius now talking about no wonder he's gay, he isn't is. He won't have to deal with Jamal and his sexuality if he finds out he isn't is. Lucious would get to wipe his hands clean and Jamal is no longer in the running. I don't put it past him to accuse Cookie though.

I think Puma and Cookie will hook up. But poor Puma, he's gonna get his heart broken. He seems way to "nice" for Cookie. which is probably why she wasn't interested way back then.

[leisawoo]

I don't think Cookie cheated cuz I feel like she loved her family. Nothing puma said gave me those feels either. He seemed like a gently rejected suitor. I mean Cookie sacrificed BIG and Puma would probably have tried to stop her.

[Malbec]

It's not just the trash can incident that makes people hate Luscious, though.  He shot an old family friend in the face in the first episode.  His plan to pit his sons against each other also speaks to his unhealthy attitude towards his children.  

 

For all that, I personally do think Luscious is still a three-dimensional character.  I think he'll end up the vein of characters like Walter White or the Sopranos, characters where you can utterly detest their actions and think they fully deserve to get what's coming to them, but still find them interesting human beings.

[LydiaMoon1]

Honestly I wish Lee Daniels had left out the trash can incident.  I get that it was his own catharsis but I feel that it has made many viewers shut down to the character of Lucius completely,  who I feel he intended to be 3 dimensional.

To be fair, it wasn't just the trash can incident.  We've also seen that Lucious abandoned Cookie in prison, murdered Bunkie, pit his sons against each other, and he bullies people on a pretty regular basis.  He's been given both good and bad qualities.  It's just that his bad qualities are very, very bad.

 

I also argue that he's already a 3D character. He's not portrayed as some mustasche-twirling cartoon villain, but rather as a fully-formed human being.  He loves.  He hates.  He laughs, and he cries.  Just three shows in and we already know his past, present, and his future.  We've seen him as a father, a husband, a lover, a friend, a businessman, an artist and as a man battling a terminal disease. I just don't know how much more 3 dimensional he can get.

Edited January 22, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[Rae Spellman]

It would be very soapy indeed if one of the sons was not Lucious'. Hakeem might be the better choice if they went that route.

 

As far as the song goes, does Lucious own the rights to the song? Or does Empire? Either way, Jamal is an artist on Lucious' label. 

 

Puma didn't seem particularly interested in providing Jamal with a hit. If he sent Cookie the song mostly so that she would listen to it and remember what she could have had with him it doesn't really matter who owns the rights to it.

[NorthstarATL]

I guess it depends on the kind of attention. If Hakeem and Andre saw Lucious hitting Jamal or berating Jamal whenever he showed any "feminine" qualities, I would think that those two would try to keep anything that they believe Lucious views as negative away from him.

 

And as someone mentioned up thread. Andre, Jamal and Hakeem are all adults now. Their relationship with Cookie will be different now than what it was when they were still children.

 

 

This show seems to have King Lear in mind (and other Shakespearean plays too). If it follows King Lear, then Jamal is Cordelia and will prove to be the best "son"  and most loyal/loving son to Lucious. (And if it follows King Lear and other novels that have used the King Lear theme, Jamal, Hakeem and Andre will plot against and kill each by the end of the series.)

As others have pointed out, the show seems more "Lion In Winter" than "King Lear", and the gay son doesn't fare quite so well.

Which is part of what makes me want them to explore Michael. Or is that why he hasn't been thus far?

[ribboninthesky1]

I didn't understand the Puma song copyright issue, either.  That's a pretty significant plot hole to just skip over, and nothing about it made sense. It just seemed to be a  thread used to facilitate the showdown between Jamal and Lucious, and the writers couldn't bother to make it coherent.  

 

I also argue that he's already a 3D character. He's not portrayed as some mustasche-twirling cartoon villain, but rather as a fully-formed human being.  He loves.  He hates.  He laughs, and he cries.  Just three shows in and we already know his past, present, and his future.  We've seen him as a father, a husband, a lover, a friend, a businessman, an artist and as a man battling a terminal disease. I just don't know how much more 3 dimensional he can get.

 

Agreed.  I suspect viewers are supposed to at least somewhat sympathize with Lucious.  It's understandable for those who do, but I'm not one of them. 

 

I thought the acting on this episode was all around subpar, and even the seasoned actors missed the mark on key scenes.   

 

I assumed the homeless man was quoting some lines from The Lion in Winter?  I've never seen the play or film, though.

Edited January 22, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[Timetoread]

He shot an old family friend in the face in the first episode.

 

You mean the old family friend that pulled a gun on him in his house trying to extort 3 million dollars to pay gambling debts?  That friend?  I didn't condone the murder but Bunkie wasn't an innocent bystander caught in the crossfire.  Bunkie took it there first.

 

And PLEASE GOD!, let this story go in a different direction than King Lear and Lion in the Winter because I am tired of everybody spoiling.

[Soup333]

I happen to like Lucius very much. During this episode, I was thinking about Cookie and Lucious's marriage and if it would have survived had she not gone to prison. I think the only thing that would have driven them apart is Lucius behavior and treatment of their children, particularly Jamal. There seems to be no doubt that they were crazy about each other before she went to prison (I think Lucius is still crazy about Cookie, even if he wouldn't openly admit it). In the first episode he said that he didn't know anything about parenting and it's pretty obvious from the way Andre and Hakeem have turned out that he was telling the truth. It's really too bad that they didn't have their mother because their family seems like it could have been a successful rags to riches (by way of *some* illegal activity) story.

 

I think Lucius does love Jamal, but he just doesn't understand how a son of his could be gay. That seems, more than a lot of stuff that has gone on in these first three episodes, to be the reaction of a fleshed out character. Anyway, Jamal and Dora/Michelle are going to end up bunking with Cookie. I'm sure she'll have some words for Lucius about that in the next episode.

[Malbec]

You mean the old family friend that pulled a gun on him in his house trying to extort 3 million dollars to pay gambling debts?  That friend?  I didn't condone the murder but Bunkie wasn't an innocent bystander caught in the crossfire.  Bunkie took it there first.

 

You don't have to think Bunkie was completely innocent (he wasn't) to think that Luscious crossed a line by cold-bloodedly killing him.  The point I was making is that the incident of throwing Jamal in the trash wasn't the only time the writers showed Luscious as a villainous character, so it's too simple to say that's the only reason why people would hate him.  

 

At the same time, a lot of classic tragedies feature a villainous or morally corrupt character at their center (MacBeth comes to mind) so it's possible to regard him as a villainous character and yet still find him a human and well-rounded character.  

[Raja]

I assumed the homeless man was quoting some lines from The Lion in Winter? I've never seen the play or film, though.

I assumed it was Book of Daniel chapter six.

[Ohwell]

I thought the acting on this episode was all around subpar, and even the seasoned actors missed the mark on key scenes.

Glad to know it wasn't just me who thought that.  It's as if they were all tired or something.

[ribboninthesky1]

I assumed it was Book of Daniel chapter six.

 

Ah, my mistake, then. 

 

Glad to know it wasn't just me who thought that.  It's as if they were all tired or something.

 

I'm not all that impressed with most of the cast, but they were doing a serviceable job the first two episodes.  The writing for this episode was really weak, so maybe they just couldn't elevate the material.

[marceline]

 

Andre and Rhonda slayed me! I about died when she had Andre to call her by the assistant DA's name. It's crazy but seems to work for them.

 

For all of Andre's and Rhonda's freak factor, they seem to be completely open and honest with each other. They appear perfectly in sync in both business and home. I think they might be the healthiest relationship on the show. In fact, Rhonda strikes me as the woman on the show most like Cookie.

Edited January 23, 2015 by marceline

[ZaldamoWilder]

You all have made me realize how sheltered an existence I've led.   When Dre came home and Rhonda asked, I thought his strategy was to be so facetiously truthful as to quell her doubts because he was hiding in plain sight.  Like, my mind did all of that <------ instead of come to the simple and more logical conclusion that they have an open marriage.  *facepalm*   Between that and the fact that ya'll ain't moved by fellatio bibs....well.  {{smooths poodle skirt}}. 

 

Naomi is as old as infinity but still serving the children!!  Yes motha, werk.

 

Boo Boo Kitty I see you trying to step your game up but Cookie thinks faster than you move.  Only reason you got her this time was because she doesn't sprecken zee deutsche.  Pearls don't serve a functional purpose in a real throwdown, probably more of hindrance actually.

 

"I need you to find somebody for me, his name is Puma."    So then... we just finna leave the government to work out government names then?

 

"That room over there is where we make all the gay love"  LMAO!!!!

 

 I like Puma. Based on what I've seen so far, this is easily Cuba Gooding Jr.'s best performance since Jerry Maguire. I think that Puma and Cookie ("Pookie?") not only have chemistry, I think that Puma could be Jamal's biological father.

 

Pookie. Lol!   Pennifer.      Girl why would you put something like that in my brain?!!  Listen, that had bet not be a thing.  Lucious love himself some Cookie, God knows he do, but he will kill her dead before he let her beat him.

 

If loving Taraji's tacky ass leopard and fur getups is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

[Rae Spellman]

How open, or healthy is Rhonda and Andre's marriage? I took that scene to mean that Andre can do anything that ultimately benefits Rhonda, including having sex with other women. I'm not sure that Rhonda would be okay with Andre having sex with another woman if all he was getting out of it was good sex or the benefit of that other woman's company. Also, Andre might not be at all okay with someone else banging his brilliant wife. Maybe we'll see.  

[GreekGeek]

 

Also, who knows about Lucious' ALS?

I'm wondering who's going to find out next, and how. Becky found out by accident, but it's not the kind of illness that one can keep secret for long. If he's already having trouble with his legs and with opening the pill bottle, he will probably have to go public with it pretty soon. When Cookie saw him taking his meds, I thought she was going to get a peek at the label and look into what they're for.

 

I hope Jamal doesn't end up taking on caretaker duty and finally earning his dad's acceptance that way. Speaking of Jamal, it's nice to see him grow a spine and decide he does want Empire after all. But I'm also hoping someone on this show can get what he wants without descending to a "kill or be killed" mindset.

[DearEvette]

"I need you to find somebody for me, his name is Puma."    So then... we just finna leave the government to work out government names then?

 

Ha!  You are so right.  The absurdity of this show is such that I really didn't even question it.... Of course they know who Puma is?  Don't err'body?

[Syndicate]

How open, or healthy is Rhonda and Andre's marriage? I took that scene to mean that Andre can do anything that ultimately benefits Rhonda, including having sex with other women. I'm not sure that Rhonda would be okay with Andre having sex with another woman if all he was getting out of it was good sex or the benefit of that other woman's company. Also, Andre might not be at all okay with someone else banging his brilliant wife. Maybe we'll see.  

THIS!  I don't think what we're seeing is an open or healthy marriage, but something that ultimately benefits Rhonda in the end.  Rhonda just doesn't strike me as stupid or particularly sharing (much like her mother-in-law).  I cannot imagine that she's truly okay with this to the point that she tolerates being called the name of one of Andre's hoes.  She's after the prize behind door number one, and she's playing along with her bipolar husband to win it.  

[Stinger97]

I loved the episode but, mostly, I just want to know how the City of New York allowed the show to portray their deputy mayor as easily manipulated by sexual favors. Like, there were NYC logos on boxes in the office as Andre had the woman bent over the desk. Who signed off on that?

[leisawoo]

Zaldamo, I have always loved you for your posts and you just made it forever love. Syndicate-you come sit over here with us. There ain't big girl panties in the world big enough for me, that I could get on board with what folks think is going on with Dre/Rhonda. I can watch them, though, lol. I could never ever be down with that though. I am no Rhonda. If it's what other folks are calling it, she must have ice in her veins, lol. I still stand by my original thoughts but I just might be wrong if it's an agreed upon thing and the cuckold fetish. Whatever that is....runs to google...and delete history in case the kids pull it up, no pun intended.

[ZaldamoWilder]

I loved the episode but, mostly, I just want to know how the City of New York allowed the show to portray their deputy mayor as easily manipulated by sexual favors. Like, there were NYC logos on boxes in the office as Andre had the woman bent over the desk. Who signed off on that?

 

DeBlasio is probably giggling his head off at the prospect of this being easier than getting into City Hall without an appointment.

 

leisawoo - I posted all on top of you and didn't even pay attention :O.  sorry girl, this is the point where I should've said thank you!

Edited January 23, 2015 by ZaldamoWilder

[Rick Kitchen]

I loved the episode but, mostly, I just want to know how the City of New York allowed the show to portray their deputy mayor as easily manipulated by sexual favors. Like, there were NYC logos on boxes in the office as Andre had the woman bent over the desk. Who signed off on that?

 

I thought they were in Philadelphia?

[Rae Spellman]

The cars have New York License plates. 

[Stinger97]

The show is filmed in Chicago, but is set in NYC. 

[Irlandesa]

How open, or healthy is Rhonda and Andre's marriage? I took that scene to mean that Andre can do anything that ultimately benefits Rhonda, including having sex with other women. I'm not sure that Rhonda would be okay with Andre having sex with another woman if all he was getting out of it was good sex or the benefit of that other woman's company. Also, Andre might not be at all okay with someone else banging his brilliant wife. Maybe we'll see.  

 

I think there's a misconception of "open" marriages.  That doesn't necessarily mean anything goes or there aren't rules.  Anything goes might be the case in some open marriages.  "If it benefits our plans" might be the rule in the Dre/Rhonda marriage.  She may not get turned on by the idea of her hubby sleeping with a barista but the deputy mayor?  That works for her.

Rhonda just doesn't strike me as stupid or particularly sharing (much like her mother-in-law).  I cannot imagine that she's truly okay with this to the point that she tolerates being called the name of one of Andre's hoes. 

You're right, she's not stupid. I think she's in control.  And she's the one who demanded he call her by the name of his mistress.  It wasn't his idea.

But maybe I read too much Dan Savage and know about the very non-traditional arrangements people have and are happy with.

[Rae Spellman]

 

I think there's a misconception of "open" marriages.  That doesn't necessarily mean anything goes or there aren't rules.  Anything goes might be the case in some open marriages.  "If it benefits our plans" might be the rule in the Dre/Rhonda marriage.  She may not get turned on by the idea of her hubby sleeping with a barista but the deputy mayor?  That works for her.

 

Sure, I might have misconceptions about open marriages since I haven't been in one. But, I've read Dan Savage off and on over the years and have had acquaintances who were in a variety of types of open relationships.

 

Even so, I read Andre's encounter with the deputy mayor as Andre selling himself for some hope of winning his father's (or possibly his wife's) favor rather than as an empowered, healthy sexual act within a perfectly healthy open marriage. Even though Andre may have enjoyed reenacting the scene with his wife. 

 

My original question about how open and healthy Rhonda and Andre's relationship wasn't because I don't think open relationships can be healthy. Or that an open marriage means that anything goes. The people I knew had rules. I guess a marriage can be "open" if the rule is that the husband can sleep with anyone who helps him do his father's bidding. Last night's episode just wasn't enough evidence for me that Rhonda and Andre do in fact have an open marriage. 

 

Although I'm enjoying Andre more each week, not much about Andre inside or outside his marriage seems particularly healthy. It's had to imagine a person that would actively work to destroy his family (or encourage her husband to destroy his family) for a record company would be able to have a healthy relationship with anyone. Maybe Andre and Rhonda are a perfect match emotionally and sexually. Or maybe, they're not that good for each other at all.