S05.E02: Episode Two

[izabella]

I thought [Rose's] coming out was supposed to get her married off but it's been, what, 18 months, and nobody has snatched her up?  Maybe she's holding out for someone who will offer her a wireless.

 

Rose had such a successful coming out, what with the Prince showing up at her ball to dance the first dance with her, and yet, no suitors.  Rose is pretty, lively, fun, likes to dance and socialize...I can't believe she has no suitors at all.  We keep getting a gaggle of Mary's men shoved down our throats constantly, but they won't liven up the show with some of Rose's young men.  How come Rose's friends aren't constantly showing up at Downton?

[ZoloftBlob]

And as other posters said, I don't think we ever found out what happened to the late Dr. Crawley. My guess is probably natural causes, nothing too traumatic. Perhaps a heart attack or stroke.

 

No, we have to do better than that! :)

 

Dr. Crawley was bitten by a vampire! Of course he appeared to die, and has spent the ensuing time watching over his unknowing wife and son. He infected both Sybil and Matthew with the vampire blood at close to their points of death because he was lonely and wanted to save them. They all chill about at night.

 

Bates's wife? Is ALSO now a vampire and is who killed Greene in a dastardly attempt to frame Bates yet again.

 

The question of course is when the vampire council is going to get pissy over lil Sybbie and George being potential part vampires! :D

[Portia]

The memoirs comment seemed contrived to me, too-- like a wink to the modern-day trend of tell-alls by royal insiders.

  

Off topic, but can someone remind me of why Isobel is a widow.

I thought Bates murdered him!

[stopeslite]

 

Most of all, what burns Thomas is that Bates, so like him in many ways, has been marked out for particular consideration by both the lord of the manor, and the angel downstairs.  Bates is esteemed and Bates is loved -- Bates is even feared, god damn it; Bates was even good to him: how galling is that?  Good to him, Thomas suspects, because Bates truly feels that he's got nothing to fear from the likes of Thomas.  Part of Thomas needs to bring Bates down, because he feels that Bates must be no better than he, and because he knows that Bates believes otherwise. And part of Thomas must bring Bates down, because what other part is there for him to play?

 

That is absolutely perfect. I was thinking exactly that, but without the right words to express it. 

 

People offended by how the pharmacy lady acted - birth control was a completely scandalous thing in 1924. I can't believe Anna got it that easily. The exchange they had could have easily happened this year in certain parts of the US. Heck, there are pharmacists who have recently successfully argued that they don't have to be "forced" to sell birth control to anyone. 

 

I think Rose could be a lot more than she is. She has an inner kindness, and seems bright enough, and has a lot of social skills. She's just never been challenged, never been asked to be more than she is. I think that Sybill would have been an incredible mentor for her. 

[meep.meep]

Re the death of Dr. Reginald Crawley

  I thought Bates murdered him!

my madness is spreading!

 

BTW - has anyone but me noticed that Thomas no longer has an artificial hand.  Guess it was too much trouble.

 

And on a less snarky front - I too think it's odd that with all the talk about the war memorial, no one has mentioned Thomas' service or the household's fallen.  Shouldn't the committee be consulting with the widows of those who died?  That would include Mary and Daisy.  Not to mention Ethel the forgotten prostitute.

[helenamonster]

Re the death of Dr. Reginald Crawley

my madness is spreading!

 

BTW - has anyone but me noticed that Thomas no longer has an artificial hand.  Guess it was too much trouble.

 

And on a less snarky front - I too think it's odd that with all the talk about the war memorial, no one has mentioned Thomas' service or the household's fallen.  Shouldn't the committee be consulting with the widows of those who died?  That would include Mary and Daisy.  Not to mention Ethel the forgotten prostitute.

 

Thomas's hand was never artificial. It was badly mangled and he wore a flesh-colored glove for some time. I haven't seen it in awhile either but it is his left hand (he's right-handed; they made a point of having him almost lift his right hand up to be shot, and then switch to his left, presumably so he'd still be able to work after he was sent home), so maybe we're just not seeing the hand all that much.

 

I definitely find it odd that Daisy and Thomas wouldn't be included, but not so much Mary. Technically, she's not a war widow. She and Matthew married after the war and his death wasn't war-related. He was injured, but there weren't any permanent effects from it and he went on living his life as normal once he got the use of his legs back. It's probably just for story's sake though. After all, Daisy's busy learning math and Thomas has a perpetual bug up his ass about Bates. No time for pesky things like memorials! I think the story is mostly there to serve as a symbol for the changing power balance, with Carson being in charge and Donk playing second string.

[millennium]

Psst Julian Fellowes is still pissed Dan Stevens left so even though it makes no sense that Matthew is rarely mentioned despite being much adored by all the family, Matthew will get less mention by name than Edith's illicit lover.

 

I get *why* Fellowes is bitter, don't get me wrong, but I think he's letting his irritation interfere with telling a better, more emotional story.

 

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree.   He seems to be "cutting off his nose to spite his face."   An occasional fond mention of Matthew would invoke the "golden age" of this show and, if even for a moment, make the old place -- and the current plot lines -- seem less empty.

Edited January 14, 2015 by millennium

[Isisnin]

Given JF's tendency to recycle story lines, I can't help but think that the result of Mary's "sex week" will be her confessing to Blake like she did to Matthew. And then Blake and Mary unite against Gillingham (when his nefarious intents become evident to Mary).

 

At the end of the radio broadcast, when the Dowager Countess and Mrs. Crawley were talking about what they felt about the broadcast, the Dowager said the royal family should have some mystery if they want to stay in Buckingham Palace. I was reminded of an article I read in the nineties (when the Charles & Diana issues were threatening the monarchy). It traced the 1st instance of the Royal Family becoming too public to the early sixties when they broadcast a "home film" of the Royal Family having a private family barbeque complete with Prince Philip being the grill master. The writer contended that that was the 1st domino leading to the disaster of Charles and Diana's dueling interviews. I wonder which broadcast JF was thinking of when he wrote that line.

 

Loving this year much better then last.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Isisnin

[Clanstarling]

I am tired of Moaning Myrtle Edith. She had showed great growth during the war, and then as a columnist and independent woman. She was strong enough to ignore Isobel and her Aunt's advice and kept her child nearby. But now she seems to have lost all common sense.

 

She's smart enough to be able to see how threatened Drew's wife is - and why shouldn't the woman be freaked out at this rich woman who keeps visiting and can't keep her hands off of the child? When Drew said something about his plan to get her involved, I'd somehow pictured her sponsoring a nursery school, or something along those lines which would allow her to have a continuing presence without broadcasting her overwhelming interest in the girl. Something more in line with aristocratic benefactors.

 

I'm bored with Thomas' story lines - which is too bad, as he's really one of the more complicated characters on the show. He was at his best with O'Brien as his ally and then enemy. They were equals.

 

But the flirtation with Cora - that was entertaining and made me hope we'd see something a little different from her. It was the liveliest part of the show.

 

I like the idea of Gillingham being the one who killed his manservant. If only it didn't mean endless Bates drama before finding out.

 

Edited January 14, 2015 by clanstarling

[RealityTVSmack]

Rose had such a successful coming out, what with the Prince showing up at her ball to dance the first dance with her, and yet, no suitors.  Rose is pretty, lively, fun, likes to dance and socialize...I can't believe she has no suitors at all.  We keep getting a gaggle of Mary's men shoved down our throats constantly, but they won't liven up the show with some of Rose's young men.  How come Rose's friends aren't constantly showing up at Downton?

It's as if Rose is supposed to be playing the part of the ugly step sister...when she's a heck of a lot more attractive than Mary or Edith.  I agree with you...how come Rose doesn't have a few guys throwing themselves at her?  I think her parents may have financial problems and lost their mini-castle.  Though Rose's upbeat personality, youth and good looks should make up for it.  Why isn't Tom Branson after her?  Oh yeah he is after Sarah the teacher, ugh.  Mary's latest cast off also doesn't seem interested in Rose either.  Guess that's a Downton mystery, how come Rose has NO friends and is Rose going to wind up an old maid? 

[Andorra]

 

Thomas's hand was never artificial. It was badly mangled and he wore a flesh-colored glove for some time. I haven't seen it in awhile either but it is his left hand (he's right-handed; they made a point of having him almost lift his right hand up to be shot, and then switch to his left, presumably so he'd still be able to work after he was sent home), so maybe we're just not seeing the hand all that much.

 

He is still wearing the glove. If you pay attention, you can see it in many scenes.

 

Why isn't Tom Branson after her?  Oh yeah he is after Sarah the teacher, ugh.

 

 

Good question. I think Rose is too young for him, but he seems to like her and vice versa. And he is NOT after Sarah the teacher. At least not in the show I'm watching. The teacher is clearly after him and everyone in the house seems to think that Tom has an interest in her, when it is obvious to me that he merely thinks of her as an interesting acquaintance. He never shows any real romantic interest in her and seems very careful and distanced when he's around her. Not at all, as if he was "after her".

Edited January 14, 2015 by Andorra

[CeeBeeGee]

I agree they treat Mary like her shit doesn't stink, but it doesn't bother me because of the Pamuk thing.  Yes, it was reckless but she was young and stupid.  We all make mistakes.  Yes, she caused a lot of trouble for people but its natural for her parents to want to protect and forgive her.

 

What DOES bother me is that they treat her like a goddess for no other reason than her beauty.  What else recommends her over Edith?  She is more socially poised and confident, but that's because of her looks and social status AND being praised her entire life.  She isn't particularly accomplished, nice, warm or helpful.  She doesn't light up a room and bring joy to people like Sybil did.  She has always been prone to dissatisfaction, irritability, entitlement and self-absorption.  She was a demanding, spoiled pain in the arse in S1.

 

Edith might not have Mary's looks or poise but she would be a LOT more confident if they had treated her as they should have.  She tries to be helpful, to learn new things; she's accomplished and attractive (certainly reasonably so).  She actually has a great figure, better than Mary's.  She did act out of bitterness in S1 and can be a sad sack but she has completely legitimate reasons for doing so, just as she has reasons for resenting Mary.  Mary on the other hand has been given every advantage and has no excuse for being so nasty to her sister or for being butthurt every time things don't go exactly as she wants them to.  

 

That's why it bugs me.  Not only does she not deserve to be treated better, she doesn't even merit it IMO.  Sybil was much better company in general and Edith at least can carry on a conversation about something other than herself, her love life and Downton. She's also not a manipulative narcissist who uses and discards people.

I love both Edith and Mary but I agree with all of this.  I don't question the writers having Mary take it out on Edith every chance she gets (this is realistic)--what I question is that NO ONE ELSE ever seems to call Mary on it.  She really is a bully toward Edith.

[magpye29]

 I posted in speculation without spoilers about what I think is going on with Gillingham, and I don't think it has anything to do with Greene.  I think 

he's going to make certain news of his tryst with Mary gets out so that she'll
be forced to marry him to preserve her reputation, and that way he'll be
guaranteed to win her fortune.

  The anvils, they thud heavily when Tony's on the screen, and his insistence on this "romantic" weekend just feels so over the top.  I hope I'm right because at least it would be something a little different.

 

My opinion isn't spoiler, but I hid it just in case.

Edited January 14, 2015 by magpye29

[Milburn Stone]

This episode made me imagine an Onion headline: Area Man Continues to Watch Downton Abbey Because He Likes It.

 

Is there such a person? 

[teddysmom]

This episode made me imagine an Onion headline: Area Man Continues to Watch Downton Abbey Because He Likes It.

Is there such a person?

 

Hilarious.

 

I kinda like it, but definitely approaching the hate watch on ramp. 

[hendersonrocks]

Team Blake. Every day and twice on Sunday. 

 

After this episode, it isn't even close! Tony is just...skeevy. It wasn't until reading through other comments here that I remembered the loss-of-fortune-and-estate circumstances (though I'm surprised Fellowes hasn't been dropping those anvils if it is indeed part of the storyline to come), and it all comes full circle. Blake, on the other hand? Rawr.

 

As for the last scene, mr.rocks and I both thought Mrs. Hughes looked scared/guilty/something as hell. Like, more than if she was just worried about the murderous Bates. And her being more involved than previously known would sure put a cherry on the "I don't like it when we're on the opposite side of things" theme from this episode with Carson, eh?

 

In all, enjoying this season much more than last year thus far.

[blackwing]

Loved the scenes with Violet and Isobel.  Their somewhat testy exchanges and knowing looks while at Merton's.  And that line of Violet's, something like "Mrs. Crawley never misses an opportunity to show a kind hand."  Then Isobel saying something akin to "well, this is a lovely room, how about that wallpaper!"  Too funny.

 

I am tired of Moaning Myrtle Edith. She had showed great growth during the war, and then as a columnist and independent woman. She was strong enough to ignore Isobel and her Aunt's advice and kept her child nearby. But now she seems to have lost all common sense.

She's smart enough to be able to see how threatened Drew's wife is - and why shouldn't the woman be freaked out at this rich woman who keeps visiting and can't keep her hands off of the child? When Drew said something about his plan to get her involved, I'd somehow pictured her sponsoring a nursery school, or something along those lines which would allow her to have a continuing presence without broadcasting her overwhelming interest in the girl. Something more in line with aristocratic benefactors.

I thoroughly agree.  Why don't either she or Drewe see how inappropriate this is?  All of a sudden, Edith is dropping by their house on a seemingly daily basis.  Now Drewe proposes that Edith be godmother, even though the girl already has a godmother.  Why the sudden interest in this girl?  Why no interest in the other children?  Why not give money to ALL of the children for their education, and not just this one?  Mrs. Drewe has every right to be suspicious and irritated.  I'm surprised she doesn't think that the girl is actually the child of Drewe and Edith.  I think based on their interactions, I would.

[ShadowFacts]

 

As for the last scene, mr.rocks and I both thought Mrs. Hughes looked scared/guilty/something as hell. Like, more than if she was just worried about the murderous Bates. And her being more involved than previously known would sure put a cherry on the "I don't like it when we're on the opposite side of things" theme from this episode with Carson, eh?

 

I don't think Mrs. Hughes could have personal involvement, but I do agree that her reaction was way over the top for just being worried for Anna and Bates.  It was may more panicked than that. 

 

What I don't understand is why the police are there at all.  They cannot know about Anna's rape, right?  If they have another witness (like a year later?) why would that lead them to Downton?  Unless someone is feeding false info to them and is trying to frame Bates, but who has the motive to do that? 

[ZoloftBlob]

What I don't understand is why the police are there at all.  They cannot know about Anna's rape, right?  If they have another witness (like a year later?) why would that lead them to Downton?  Unless someone is feeding false info to them and is trying to frame Bates, but who has the motive to do that?

 

It actually doesn't make sense in that Greene's death is hardly the event of the century in London. He was a lower class servant, and its difficult to discern whether his death was an accident or intentional. There's never been any mention of his having a family that would push for the truth, his ex boss Gillingham doesn't seem all that concerned. Most of the people who are afraid that Bates may have been involved - Anna, Mary, Mrs. Hughes - also have a vested interest in Greene getting what he deserved.

 

And who, aside from Thomas, is out to get Bates? Does Thomas have any inkling at all that Bates and Greene had issues?

[ShadowFacts]

 

And who, aside from Thomas, is out to get Bates? Does Thomas have any inkling at all that Bates and Greene had issues?

 

Thomas might have an inkling if he picked up on tension, but that is about all, because he has been pushing Baxter hard for info that might relate to Bates.  That would therefore rule him out as someone who would have any knowledge of or involvement with Greene's death, I would think.

[Pallas]

The anvils, they thud heavily when Tony's on the screen, and his insistence on this "romantic" weekend just feels so over the top.

 

It looks to me as if you and all who suspect Tony are onto something, magpye29. Especially if we imagine what Julian Fellowes might meant to hold up as properly manly, manly behavior.  If we compare what we've seen of Gillingham to Fellowes's gentlemen or "nature's gentlemen" such as Matthew, Tom, Carson and Charles Blake.  Blake who was willing to literally get down in the mud with Mary, but not fling her there.  

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Fellowes believed that nature intended for a man and his "man" to be a harmonious unity, to represent the warp and woof of a whole truth.  If so, even if Greene only worked for Gillingham for a brief time, perhaps their connection is more than plot mechanics. Maybe man and man are two of a kind.  And meanwhile, we know that Fellowes doesn't tire of having his good men proven right in their suspicions of another's man's character: Robert about Strallen, Bates about Greene, now Blake about Gillingham.  

 

I wonder if Tony, who has already taken care of bribing the hotel manager, would be unwilling to allow Mary to demur or change her mind.  You may be right that where Greene overpowered Anna for sex, his former employer may be looking to outflank Mary through sex, to marriage, for money.  But sex is probably the very least Tony's willing to take away with him from Liverpool.

 

If Fellowes were to risk repeating himself (again) and subject Mary to rape, he could uphold that he was deliberately depicting rape as it most often occurs -- between acquaintances -- and among the upper as well as lower classes. He might also take the opportunity, this time, to portray more of the trauma experienced by the victim: a character who seems more familiar to him than Anna, and at least as dear.   

[taanja]

 

You would have loved "The Tudors."  There were about a million characters named "Tom" or "Thomas" although to be fair, most of them were Lord Something or other so they didn't have their names used too often

 

The old expression ---Every Tom, Dick and Harry --- is derived from the fact that the names --Thomas, Richard and Henry (Harry) were the most popular names for boys for many generations.

 

I personally know 5 Tom's ---at least 3 Harry's and several Ricks, Ritchie's and a Dick or 2.

 

[becauseIsaidso]

 

Off topic, but can someone remind me of why Isobel is a widow. And whoever says "Because her husband has died" will die himself or herself. No, I mean, do we know what happened to him? It wasn't the war obviously, because she was alone except for Matthew when they came to Downton.

Basically, Dr.Crawley HAD to already be dead for the plot to work...had he still been alive, he would have been the heir instead of Matthew. Then they would had to have wasted all sorts of  episode and production time introducing him and killing him off to establish Matthew as the new heir. So much easier this way.

[ZoloftBlob]

 

Basically, Dr.Crawley HAD to already be dead for the plot to work...had he still been alive, he would have been the heir instead of Matthew. Then they would had to have wasted all sorts of  episode and production time introducing him and killing him off to establish Matthew as the new heir. So much easier this way.

And is a vampire :D

 

More seriously - I think, considering that Matthew was clearly a late in life child (am I the only one who noticed that Penelope Wilton is old enough to be Dan Steven's grandmother?) that if Dr. Crawley had been alive, it would have been a similar situation to Cousin James and Cousin Patrick - namely that James would have assumed the Earldom if Robert had died but was of an age to where it was more likely that his son would inherit.

[Avaleigh]

Rose, on the other hand, seems worthless. Why is she still at Downton? Where is her family? What purpose does she serve except to be Sybil lite?

 

 

I love Rose and I hate Thomas but otherwise love your post, Taanja. 

 

I like the light hearted side of things that Rose brings to the show. I like that she's well intentioned and sweet and I feel like she brings life into the house because she tends to focus on positive things so I appreciate that. I'd really like to meet her siblings at some point. Oh, and her Aunt Agatha the Shark. 

 

How come Rose's friends aren't constantly showing up at Downton?

 

 

Guess that's a Downton mystery, how come Rose has NO friends and is Rose going to wind up an old maid?

 

 

The thing is, none of these people are really shown as having friends. We've heard some mentions of friends but for the most part the characters don't have many friends coming to Downton to visit. 

 

I actually thought it was a huge improvement that we got to see a girlfriend of Rose's in the form of Madeline Allsopp last season.  Mary has mentioned a couple of female friends in passing but we've never seen either woman. Edith and Sybil--I can't recall them ever mentioning having a friend to stay or having just come from visiting so-and-so. We know Larry Grey liked Sybil and that Sybil was a popular debutante but unfortunately we only got to hear about it as opposed to actually seeing any of it.  

 

Last season Rose had that one guy come to the house once or twice and then he got drunk when they all went out in London, Jack Ross stepped in, and that was the end of that friend.

 

Also, am I wrong in thinking that Rose captured Tony's attention at the art gallery in the season 4 Christmas Special? IIRC Mary took note of it. It was a brief moment but I think it happened. I've certainly never doubted Rose's level of attraction to other men. I thought in the episode where she went out with Anna that it was obvious other men thought she was a total beauty. 

[blackwing]

What does Rose do all day?  I believe Cora corresponds with other ladies and handles the family's social engagements and things like that.  Mary is helping to run the estate.  Edith writes a column and seemingly spends the rest of her free time at the Drewe's.  But what does Rose do?  She doesn't seem to have any family responsibilities or role.  Does she just sit around and eat and drink?  I'm surprised she doesn't spend more time in London.  I would think she'd be terribly bored in the big house with no real friends and no tasks.

[Avaleigh]

Edith writes a column and seemingly spends the rest of her free time at the Drewe's.

 

Does Edith still write the column? We never hear about her going to London anymore or have anyone like Cora, Tom, or Violet asking her about it.

 

But what does Rose do?  She doesn't seem to have any family responsibilities or role.  Does she just sit around and eat and drink?  I'm surprised she doesn't spend more time in London.  I would think she'd be terribly bored in the big house with no real friends and no tasks.f

 

 

It seems like Rose is filling the role that the three Crawley girls had before the war. She's involved in charitable functions, she's presenting awards and going to county flower shows, that sort of thing. The idea, I think, is that marriage gives an upper class woman a more straightforward role and that they're basically just whiling away the time until that happens. That's how Mary, Edith, and Sybil have made it sound at various points across the series. 

 

Another friend Rose had to stay was that girl Kitty that Sarah Bunting insulted by basically making her feel like she was stupid for not being good with mathematics. Wow, Rose is doing better in the friend department than all of the other characters combined, lol. 

[mcjen]

 

 

The old expression ---Every Tom, Dick and Harry --- is derived from the fact that the names --Thomas, Richard and Henry (Harry) were the most popular names for boys for many generations.

I personally know 5 Tom's ---at least 3 Harry's and several Ricks, Ritchie's and a Dick or 2.

Thanks for that, taanja.  Being of a certain age (Isobel Crawley-like), I grew up amidst a sea of Kathys, Debbies, and Nancys.  Thirty years later, I think schools were full of Jennifers and Brittanys.  So the repetition of names on DA doesn't bother me in the least; if they were more true to life, I think we'd see far more repeating names than we do.  

As an adolescent, I began to follow my mother's daytime soaps just as they were expanding from a 30 minutes to a full hour.  New characters flooded in, and the lengths to which the writers would go to keep from duplicating a name were spectacular.  I recall bursting out in laughter one afternoon when a new femme fatale on one of mom's shows introduced herself throatily as "My name's Amber - but everyone calls me 'Brandy'."  Not just one new "special" name, but two!

[helenamonster]

Loved the scenes with Violet and Isobel.  Their somewhat testy exchanges and knowing looks while at Merton's.  And that line of Violet's, something like "Mrs. Crawley never misses an opportunity to show a kind hand."  Then Isobel saying something akin to "well, this is a lovely room, how about that wallpaper!"  Too funny.

 

I loved the exchange when they got there, where Isobel asked if they could see the gardens. Violet said something like, "It's up to Lord Merton what we do while we're here. This is his house." And Isobel responds, "Yes, I know," in just the most annoyed tone of voice, it was awesome.

 

And who, aside from Thomas, is out to get Bates? Does Thomas have any inkling at all that Bates and Greene had issues?

 

Baxter made at least one comment about Bates and Green that Thomas picked up on. Neither of them has any definitive idea of everything that went down (I seriously doubt either of them suspect that Green raped Anna), but I think Baxter is suspicious that Bates may have been involved in Green's death. Thomas is a couple steps behind her, I think. He knows there's some connection between Bates and Green but doesn't seem to have even an educated guess as to what it might be. Either way, I don't think he knows enough to call the police and pretend to have witnessed Bates push Green in front of the BoJ.

 

Maybe after their weird conversation last episode, Tony is worried that Bates may suspect him of Green's death (going with the speculation that Tony's the culprit) and decided to deflect the blame onto him by phoning in an anonymous tip? I know that's a stretch, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

[MaryHedwig]

More seriously - I think, considering that Matthew was clearly a late in life child (am I the only one who noticed that Penelope Wilton is old enough to be Dan Steven's grandmother?) that if Dr. Crawley had been alive, it would have been a similar situation to Cousin James and Cousin Patrick - namely that James would have assumed the Earldom if Robert had died but was of an age to where it was more likely that his son would inherit.

Good thinking.  I think you are right but, less seriously, maybe Dr. Crawley died in childbirth the day Matthew was born and was the first to suffer from the Crawley curse.

[ZoloftBlob]

Good thinking.  I think you are right but, less seriously, maybe Dr. Crawley died in childbirth the day Matthew was born and was the first to suffer from the Crawley curse.

 

If Dr. Crawley *died in childbirth* when Matthew was born, then I am increasingly curious about Matthew's Earth origin story... especially since his mom is Prime Minister Harriet Jones. ;)

[ShadowFacts]

 

Maybe after their weird conversation last episode, Tony is worried that Bates may suspect him of Green's death (going with the speculation that Tony's the culprit) and decided to deflect the blame onto him by phoning in an anonymous tip? I know that's a stretch, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

 

That's a good guess.  I was puzzling over this while out shoveling snow, and all I can come up with are more questions.  To me the word witness means someone who was on the scene, or witnessed events leading up to the death.  Such as the train ticket seller.  Even if that person remembered Bates being on a train to London, or a random townsperson who was also on the train or in the street, it presupposes that a) anyone is still investigating this cold case, b) the witness knew of Greene's misdeeds at Downton, or c) knew of a Greene/Bates connection.  If indeed the police are going to be asking questions of or about Bates.  Tony doesn't know specifically what happened but he knows something did. 

 

I think you're onto something, helenamonster.  Between his own financial straits, his evasiveness of Bates' questions, his ungentlemanly plans with Mary, and Blake's warning, I think we've got a suspect.  Greene had some inconvenient information on his employer, something like that. 

[millennium]

I love both Edith and Mary but I agree with all of this.  I don't question the writers having Mary take it out on Edith every chance she gets (this is realistic)--what I question is that NO ONE ELSE ever seems to call Mary on it.  She really is a bully toward Edith.

 Part of the problem, I think, is that Donk shares Mary's disdain for Edith and the others probably pick up on it.   I can't cite any specific instance, but he seems to regard her as an ongoing problem.   His comment this past episode was harsh and dismissive: "Well, let's just hope the Drews don't get sick of her," or something like that, as though he's sick of her himself but stuck with her because she's family.   Makes me think he wishes in private it had been Edith, not Sibyl, who died.

[hendersonrocks]

Between his own financial straits, his evasiveness of Bates' questions, his ungentlemanly plans with Mary, and Blake's warning, I think we've got a suspect.  Greene had some inconvenient information on his employer, something like that.

 

Iiiiiiinteresting. And oh so far more exciting to me than another Bates Gone Crazy murder plot. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Greene had some inconvenient information on his employer, something like that.

 

It seems reasonable that Greene might have known about Tony's OTHER Sex Vacations. I mean, Tony seemed pretty experienced at the whole thing.

 

The setting up the hotel rooms, I mean. The actual sex part seemed really painful :)

[DHDancer]

"represent the warp and woof of a whole truth"

Sorry, just had to have a giggle over this one:  the expression is warp and weft (a weaving term) but I had visions of Isis being involved somehow.

 

Speaking of Isis:  does anyone know her pedigree?  I've tried googling around but haven't found anything.

[DHDancer]

I think the Gillingham speculation is very interesting. Looking back, it helps go someway to his arriving at Downton to tell Mary personally Green was dead and other snippets etc. I personally find him very attractive and don't find him at all dorky or "skeevy".   And I'm not sure I buy into "he's after her money" -- yes his family has lost some of the fortune but they aren't skint by any stretch. (they live in the dower house or somesuch, and I'm sure still have houses in London and other places around the country)

 

In this episode, I kept thinking Blake was being played by a different actor:  I didn't find him anywhere near as attractive as he was last season.

 

And the interesting thing for Mary is who has the greater "status"?  Gillingham or Blake?  Mary's all about position power (and if the sex is also good, then so much the better).  She is not going to marry down the social scale because that will undermine everything she's been raised to accept.

[Clanstarling]

 

More seriously - I think, considering that Matthew was clearly a late in life child (am I the only one who noticed that Penelope Wilton is old enough to be Dan Steven's grandmother?)

Penelope is 36 years older than Dan. An older mother, sure, but I wouldn't call that late in life. I think of that expression as referring to being close to menopause. Of course, I had my last child at 38, so I'm biased. :) Technically, I suppose you're right ZoloftBlob, she could be his grandmother (if she had a child at 18 and that child had Dan at 18).

Edited January 14, 2015 by clanstarling

[Kohola3]

Isis is a lab.  

[taanja]

If Dr. Crawley *died in childbirth* when Matthew was born, then I am increasingly curious about Matthew's Earth origin story... especially since his mom is Prime Minister Harriet Jones. ;)

 

You win! This is the best thing I have read in a while.

 

Penelope is 36 years older than Dan. An older mother, sure, but I wouldn't call that late in life.

 

Considering that Matthew was born in the late 19th century ---a woman giving birth to her one and only child at the age of 38 she would be considered an "older mother" in that day and age.

[Constantinople]

Basically, Dr.Crawley HAD to already be dead for the plot to work...had he still been alive, he would have been the heir instead of Matthew. Then they would had to have wasted all sorts of  episode and production time introducing him and killing him off to establish Matthew as the new heir. So much easier this way.

It would still work if Dr Crawley were alive for the plot to work since the line of succession to the earldom would be Dr. Crawley, Matthew and then any legitimate male children that Matthew had. Lord & Lady G would still want to throw Mary at Matthew so that their grandson would inherit Downton.

Moreover, Mary & Violet would still want to break the entail.

I think Dr Crawley died before the series started because JF is willing to put up with only so many middle class busybodies.

 

 

And the interesting thing for Mary is who has the greater "status"?  Gillingham or Blake?  Mary's all about position power (and if the sex is also good, then so much the better).  She is not going to marry down the social scale because that will undermine everything she's been raised to accept.

Gillingham is a Viscount and thus a peer, albeit a low ranking one (Duke-Marquess-Earl-Viscount-Baron). Blake is the heir to a baronetcy -- essentially a hereditary knighthood -- and thus would not be a peer when the current Baronet dies. I don't know how much social distinction there is between the two. One advantage to the times-a-changing is that it's easier for a Commoner to pursue a political career, if that's something that would interest Blake, and Mary.

In addition, the Baronetcy, is apparently a rich one whereas Gillingham is a relatively poor nobleman and needs to (vis)count every penny.

The Baronetcy, however, is in Northern Ireland. I don't know how Mary would react to that. I imagine Tom wouldn't be too thrilled, which is one reason why I want Mary to choose Blake.

[ZoloftBlob]

clanstarling - I meant no offense. My mother always referred to children born to women "of a certain age" as late in life children.

 

It honestly was just one of those things that always struck me as odd because it always went unmentioned that Matthew and Mary were close in age while their parents belong to seemingly different generations.

[DHDancer]

Isis is a lab.  

I was asking about her pedigree, not her breed. of course she's a lab, specifically a yellow lab.

[RealityTVSmack]

Good question. I think Rose is too young for him, but he seems to like her and vice versa. And he is NOT after Sarah the teacher. At least not in the show I'm watching. The teacher is clearly after him and everyone in the house seems to think that Tom has an interest in her, when it is obvious to me that he merely thinks of her as an interesting acquaintance. He never shows any real romantic interest in her and seems very careful and distanced when he's around her. Not at all, as if he was "after her".

Guess I'm like everyone else in Downton Abbey who thinks Tom "has an interest" in Sarah. As of this epi he has allowed her to influence him so much so that Robert & Cora before going to bed mention they were worried about him leaving Downton.

Edited January 14, 2015 by RealityTVSmack

[Cranston]

Tom is my favorite character.  I agree with posters who have expressed the opinion that he really isn't that into Sarah.  She's the only person in his life right now who basically holds the same political views he does and he finds that interesting and refreshing about her.  I just don't see much of a romantic spark there. I think he's missed his old life, which Sarah has reminded him of, and were it not for his child I suspect he'd be on the road back in a heartbeat.

 

As for Rose, she irritated the hell out of me at first but I've come to really like her.  She's confident and upbeat and Downton could use a lot of that.  I also like Robert, old fart that he can be.  He is what he is and what life and breeding have made him to be, but he's not a bad person.  Edith, after much soul searching, should do what is best for her child.  Not for her, not for the Drewes...for that little girl.  I can't even think about Mary and her boyfriends, so 7th grade.

[helenamonster]

Guess I'm like everyone else in Downton Abbey who thinks Tom "has an interest" in Sarah. As of this epi he has allowed her to influence him so much so that Robert & Cora before going to bed mention they were worried about him leaving Downton.

 

I think that was more Donk than Cora. Cora was very "when the time comes we'll talk to him about it but he has the right to take Sybbie and live wherever he wants." Donk was being his usual unreasonable, shouty crackers self.

[ZoloftBlob]

I think that was more Donk than Cora. Cora was very "when the time comes we'll talk to him about it but he has the right to take Sybbie and live wherever he wants." Donk was being his usual unreasonable, shouty crackers self.

 

I will throw Donk a bone on this one. Don't look at it with modern eyes. If Tom takes Sybbie to America, there's a very strong chance that at a minimum, it would be years before Robert saw her again. Travel was slow and expensive, its not like Robert and Cora were going to get her for every summer. They probably wouldn't get to see her until she was old enough to travel as a young lady. I get why this would be unpalatable. That said, Cora was right to note that Tom gets to make the decision, not them.

[Clanstarling]

clanstarling - I meant no offense. My mother always referred to children born to women "of a certain age" as late in life children.

 

It honestly was just one of those things that always struck me as odd because it always went unmentioned that Matthew and Mary were close in age while their parents belong to seemingly different generations.

No offense taken at all. I hadn't thought about how her relationship is with Mary's grandmother, just honed in on the actors' ages to see if they were that far apart.  As Taanja pointed out, 36 (or my own 38) would have been late in life back in the day. Even today, having your children in your mid to late 30's is considered a late start.

[millennium]

 I posted in speculation without spoilers about what I think is going on with Gillingham, and I don't think it has anything to do with Greene.  I think 

he's going to make certain news of his tryst with Mary gets out so that she'll

be forced to marry him to preserve her reputation, and that way he'll be

guaranteed to win her fortune.

  The anvils, they thud heavily when Tony's on the screen, and his insistence on this "romantic" weekend just feels so over the top.  I hope I'm right because at least it would be something a little different.

 

My opinion isn't spoiler, but I hid it just in case.

 

I think you ought to be writing the show.

[magpye29]

The old expression ---Every Tom, Dick and Harry --- is derived from the fact that the names --Thomas, Richard and Henry (Harry) were the most popular names for boys for many generations.

 

The one that always stumps my husband is "Sure as Bob's your uncle."  Every family had a Robert, so everyone has an Uncle Bob.

 

Also, woof is an alternative for weft, so the expression is often warp and woof, therefore correct.