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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

1 minute ago, Terese said:

I am focused on the words, "this family," instead of saying "their family." It comes of as distancing or disconnected.

If he had said "their family", that would IMO make it seem like he is refering to just the brothers who make up the Winchester family. By saying "this family they have build", it seems to refer to the concept of "found family". 

I think the distinction is important because previously I thought the Finale was probably a relationship ep about the brothers and "carry on" refered to whichever one didn`t die. But if Badd wants to bring his idea of cameo family into it, then both brothers could die and everyone else could "carry on" for them. 

I`d prefer option 2 over option 1.  

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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Terese

Terese

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If he had said "their family", that would IMO make it seem like he is refering to just the brothers who make up the Winchester family. By saying "this family they have build", it seems to refer to the concept of "found family". 

I think the distinction is important because previously I thought the Finale was probably a relationship ep about the brothers and "carry on" refered to whichever one didn`t die. But if Badd wants to bring his idea of cameo family into it, then both brothers could die and everyone else could "carry on" for them. 

I`d prefer option 2 over option 1.  

When I say, "this family down the street," I am referring to a unit that is an actual family. The people that Sam and Dean regard as family are family only in relation to them. Bobby, Charlie, Jack, Castiel are not an actual fanily independent of Sam and Dean.

Anyway, I probably make too much of it. I just thought it was oddly phrased.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

14 minutes ago, Terese said:

When I say, "this family down the street," I am referring to a unit that is an actual family. The people that Sam and Dean regard as family are family only in relation to them. Bobby, Charlie, Jack, Castiel are not an actual fanily independent of Sam and Dean.

Ah, I see what you mean. I think if they go that route, it will be played as a legacy thing. A couple people who were regarded by the brothers as family but aren't necessarily more than aquaintances, if that, to each other. But each carry on for the brothers. 

It's more or less another meta statement that these people only hold "meaning" in the story in terms of how they relate to the Winchesters.

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Terese

Terese

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Ah, I see what you mean. I think if they go that route, it will be played as a legacy thing. A couple people who were regarded by the brothers as family but aren't necessarily more than aquaintances, if that, to each other. But each carry on for the brothers. 

It's more or less another meta statement that these people only hold "meaning" in the story in terms of how they relate to the Winchesters.

Yeah, meta, it pulls me out. There will be carrying on.  Although, everyone is dead that was family. Cas and Jack, notwithstanding. So who will the legacies be?

Sam and Dean already feel somewhat irrelevant to the story, of late. Whatever they do with them in the end, somehow seems equally irrelevant. I am so aware of this being just a story and the ending feels so forced, contrived, written. Of course, it's written; but, it shouldn't feel written. Meta was so the wrong way to go.

juppschmitz

juppschmitz

On 9/24/2020 at 4:24 PM, ILoveReading said:

New trailer being released in about an hour.

This will probably give up a clearer direction if not spoil everything.  

Ep 15 description

MATT COHEN DIRECTS – Castiel (Misha Collins) and Jack (Alexander Calvert) work a case involving members of a local church. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) go off in search of Amara (guest star Emily Swallow). Matt Cohen directed the episode written by Davy Perez (#1515). Original airdate 10/15/2020.

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-gimme-shelter-description-matt-cohen-directs/205429/

If I didn't know the show and only read this episode description, I'd assume that Castiel and Jack are the main characters and these Dean and Sam guys merely "also running". 

Dean and Sam being relegated to this role is Dabb-SPN in a nutshell.

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Terese

Terese

40 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

If I didn't know the show and only read this episode description, I'd assume that Castiel and Jack are the main characters and these Dean and Sam guys merely "also running". 

Dean and Sam being relegated to this role is Dabb-SPN in a nutshell.

Do you remember in an episode, last season, when Castiel was talking about Sam and Dean's mortality? Much emphasis was placed on the fact that they are human, will someday die, will be missed, and are grateful to have known them. I'm not sure if those comments had any underlying meaning. It acknowledges what mortals can impact, while emphasizing how fleeting it is. 

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KayCordingly

KayCordingly

I know that this speculation is probably out of left field, but if they don't reveal that this Chuck is an impersonator by the end of the season, I'm going to be very disappointed. Because I can't understand how the writers expect me to believe that this whiny, sadistic season 15 Chuck is that same season 10 Chuck who was ready to sacrifice himself to save humanity from Amara.

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catrox14

catrox14

1 hour ago, KayCordingly said:

I know that this speculation is probably out of left field, but if they don't reveal that this Chuck is an impersonator by the end of the season, I'm going to be very disappointed. Because I can't understand how the writers expect me to believe that this whiny, sadistic season 15 Chuck is that same season 10 Chuck who was ready to sacrifice himself to save humanity from Amara.

For me, if they do make that reveal, it will be worse because that will make the boys look more foolish than they already do.

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Terese

Terese

4 hours ago, KayCordingly said:

I know that this speculation is probably out of left field, but if they don't reveal that this Chuck is an impersonator by the end of the season, I'm going to be very disappointed. Because I can't understand how the writers expect me to believe that this whiny, sadistic season 15 Chuck is that same season 10 Chuck who was ready to sacrifice himself to save humanity from Amara.

Ditto, or a purpose so concealed and absolutely necessary to save his beloved creation.

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Terese

Terese

56 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

Ooh I like that idea better!

I have a theory that Billie is possessed by the Empty, much like Duma was, and is planning to destroy the universe. Chuck has created multiple universes as decoys, but is now ready to face it head on. It's pretty elaborate. I love Chuck and hope they go much deeper than it currently appears. My only current clue is based on Billie's hand and forearm in the Run Trailer, when pounding on the door. Freeze frame it and tell me what you see. 

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Smad

Smad

16 hours ago, KayCordingly said:

I know that this speculation is probably out of left field, but if they don't reveal that this Chuck is an impersonator by the end of the season, I'm going to be very disappointed. Because I can't understand how the writers expect me to believe that this whiny, sadistic season 15 Chuck is that same season 10 Chuck who was ready to sacrifice himself to save humanity from Amara.

Many people have been speculating that since S14. The only problem is, unless Amara is also revealed to have been an impersonator then Chuck can't be. Because if Amara is real and herself, she would know whether that's her brother right in front of her or not. Not that it wouldn't be beyond these bozos to forget this part if they want to do a 'gotcha'.

IMO people need to stop getting their hopes up and adjust to the capabilities of the current writers. Everyone tries to make this story more complicated than it is because the story presented is so stupid, simple and on the nose...that you just hope it's not. IMO the most one can hope for is that Billie and the Empty have a plan they are keeping secret and are using Jack to achieve it.

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KayCordingly

KayCordingly

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Many people have been speculating that since S14. The only problem is, unless Amara is also revealed to have been an impersonator then Chuck can't be. Because if Amara is real and herself, she would know whether that's her brother right in front of her or not. Not that it wouldn't be beyond these bozos to forget this part if they want to do a 'gotcha'.

IMO people need to stop getting their hopes up and adjust to the capabilities of the current writers. Everyone tries to make this story more complicated than it is because the story presented is so stupid, simple and on the nose...that you just hope it's not. IMO the most one can hope for is that Billie and the Empty have a plan they are keeping secret and are using Jack to achieve it.

Hey I'm aware that my dreams will be shattered in the last 2 episodes. Just let me dream while I can 😂

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

Press release for ep 16

Quote

FLASHBACK TO A YOUNG SAM AND DEAN – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are asked to investigate the murder of a childhood friend, calling them back to a motel from their past and perplexing the brothers with a case they thought was solved a long time ago. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Meghan Fitzmartin (#1516). Original airdate 10/22/2020.

https://www.spoilertv.com/2020/10/supernatural-episode-1516-press-release.html

I wish they hadn't give a flash back ep to Dabb's assistant.  She's the one who thought it was a good idea to tell someone to watch the early seasons while cleaning.

Sneak Peek.   I feel like this small clip is basically everything that is wrong with the writing these days.  Jack Jack Jack, and some more Jack with a side of comic relief Dean and Sam researching, and Cas off on an errand.

If they want to try and reach Amara why don't they have Dean try and reach her.  They have that connection.

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ahrtee

ahrtee

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Press release for ep 16

https://www.spoilertv.com/2020/10/supernatural-episode-1516-press-release.html

I wish they hadn't give a flash back ep to Dabb's assistant.  She's the one who thought it was a good idea to tell someone to watch the early seasons while cleaning.

Sneak Peek.   I feel like this small clip is basically everything that is wrong with the writing these days.  Jack Jack Jack, and some more Jack with a side of comic relief Dean and Sam researching, and Cas off on an errand.

If they want to try and reach Amara why don't they have Dean try and reach her.  They have that connection.

It's Ozzie and Harriet, with Dean as Harriet (complete with apron and spatula), Sam as the busy father working/researching, and both worrying about little Ricky, sulking in his room.  

And having Dean bring up Hitler again, as if that wasn't old how many years ago?  

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Yup.

I have to agree.

Unfortunately. 🙄

Sam hugging Donna looks like a direct copy of when Dean said goodbye to her.

Sam looking all beat up at the scene of the final battle.

That scene about 50 seconds in, looks very much like Dean is reassuring Sam that he can do it.

Jack lying on his bed looking all sad. 

Dean standing by the car looking all sad.

The you've sacrificed for us Dean speeches.

It all point in a direction I will be shocked if it doesn't go in.

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Smad

Smad

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If they want to try and reach Amara why don't they have Dean try and reach her.  They have that connection.

 

43 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

I'm sure that ship has sailed, and they don't even remember it.  Stupid.  I also think it is Stupid that Dean wants Amara dead, it doesn't fit with the past and screams lazy writing.

Sadly the characters can only be as smart as the writers. They can also only remember what the writers remember, being fictional characters and all. And even if the writers remembered, of course they weren't going to make use of it. The Season might have been over after episode 3 if they did that. Having God #1 take on God#2? Totally logical but also too easy therefor you can't have an entire Season of nonsensical fanservice. Plus it's supposed to be TFW that beats God, despite all of them (including Jack) being severely under powered for the job. Or maybe beat the Entity in the Empty but same power imbalance exists there.

But hey, this is from the same writers who had the ingredients for the spell that locked Amara away just lying around the bunker. And to top it off, none of those ingredients would have existed at the time Amara was locked away. Remember when it took an entire Season and 66 seals just to release Lucifer from his God made cage? Good times. Now some stuff just lies in the bunker that's capable of locking a God away.

That's why I gave up on this Season in episode 4 and I'm gad I did. I spend all 4 episodes thinking 'call Amara'. When that didn't happen, I called it quits. There is only so much stupid I'm willing to subject myself to. Not that this was the only stupid but just the most glaring example. Though I'm sure if it comes up enough, they will have the perfect excuse ready. 'Well God writes everything and he wrote for Dean to forget that all he has to do is pray for Amara and she'll come'.

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PAForrest

PAForrest

11 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Still getting major Swan Song vibes

Eh, I'm getting no feelings one way or the other. It's another "shaving people ..." vid, right? And those usually end up meaning literally nothing at all. Not saying there won't be another "Suck Ass Song" ending - I mean, come on, Dabb has to rip off someone. If it's not Kripke season five, then it's the finale of The Vampire Diaries or Arrow or some other show. Originality is not exactly his strong suit, even when he did moderately care. Now he doesn't at all.

The things that do jump out at me include the shot of Charlie - did we know she was coming back, or have I just not given enough of a damn to keep up or remember if she was spoiled before? Probably a little of both.

Also we can't get through the final 7 episodes without at least one more Dean scene repurposed for Sam - in this case, two scenes. Sam hugging Donna goodbye ala Dean before he goes to create the Malak Box (though I am happy to see Donna again); and Sam in Billie's library learning his book fate. Oh Supernatural, never change - because you never have. I won't miss all those repurposed scenes.

Yes, killing Amara is a dumb plan for Dean to consider. It's Dabbernatural.

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

Random thoughts from the Punting Things vid.

Don't care about Jack at all, so making him the central figure in the final battle automatically lessens my investment by at least 75%. If it weren't the actual swan song of the show, I don't think I'd even watch it.

Is Castiel digging at a crossroads?

12 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Also we can't get through the final 7 episodes without at least one more Dean scene repurposed for Sam - in this case, two scenes. Sam hugging Donna goodbye ala Dean before he goes to create the Malak Box (though I am happy to see Donna again); and Sam in Billie's library learning his book fate. Oh Supernatural, never change - because you never have. I won't miss all those repurposed scenes.

What sad is, they don't seem to realize just how much these scenes end up pale by comparison. They might give Sam fans a lady-boner, but they do Jared no favours (my opinion of course). Alas, since it's the end, they will allow Sam's scenes to stand as noble and brave, while Dean was just a faithless quitter with suicidal tendencies. Sigh.

That last clip of Dean (or is it Jensen?) closing the door is super cute though.

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ukgirl71

ukgirl71

My own quick thoughts on the vid.  
 

Jared, much as I love you, it’s pronounced “fam-eee” - sorry, that was the rusty French speaker in me coming out for a second.

Blimey, Jared looks so thin and tall in that walk down the street with Alex and Jensen.

What is it with all the pulled back shots in the bunker from these last couple of seasons - the “writer/theatre” metaphors are painfully clunky.

Jensen’s “lightning bolt” made me smile.

 

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Myrelle

Myrelle

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Also we can't get through the final 7 episodes without at least one more Dean scene repurposed for Sam - in this case, two scenes. Sam hugging Donna goodbye ala Dean before he goes to create the Malak Box (though I am happy to see Donna again); and Sam in Billie's library learning his book fate. Oh Supernatural, never change - because you never have. I won't miss all those repurposed scenes.

Taking to the bitter spoilers thread because I couldn't agree more with the last sentence here.

ILoveReading

ILoveReading

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The things that do jump out at me include the shot of Charlie - did we know she was coming back, or have I just not given enough of a damn to keep up or remember if she was spoiled before? Probably a little of both.

Yeah both versions are supposed to be back.  NU and old Charlie along with Nu and old Bobby, because there aren't enough characters crammed into these last episodes already.

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ahrtee

ahrtee

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Yeah both versions are supposed to be back.  NU and old Charlie along with Nu and old Bobby, because there aren't enough characters crammed into these last episodes already.

Well, if they didn't pack the eps with various unnecessary characters showing up randomly, they might actually have to write something like real dialog or a plot (especially involving the "main" characters).  

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

29 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, if they didn't pack the eps with various unnecessary characters showing up randomly, they might actually have to write something like real dialog or a plot (especially involving the "main" characters).  

Which is why I just roll my eyes at the segment of fandom losing their minds over the FB poster/comment. It's cheap lip service to the Winchesters while the actual show gets handed over to the secondary (and worse) characters. Blargh. 

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Terese

Terese

4 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Great shaving thing video--lot of it really looks good.  Looking forward to it.   Interesting that Sam and Cas both attacked in Death's library.

I thought it was quite good, as well. I have been suspicious of both Billie and The Entity, neither of whom are advocates of life. So much secrecy and push to kill Chuck. The reasoning and purpose seems so vague and self-serving. Billie's books have always been in question. The Malak Box did not happen nor did the only alternate to Dean's fate, death by Michael, happen. But, it certainly did stir things up by exacerbating the situation with Jack.I also feel that Rowena's death was actually caused by Billie as a manipulator of a witch who believes in prophecy. I also wonder if the Entity is impersonating Billie? If so, aside from Castiel, Meg, Duma, is he also at times impersonating Chuck? Although, I do believe Chuck has been preparing for this onslaught against his creation.

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catrox14

catrox14

16 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

That would make it at least a little more palatable.

For me, that would make it worse,because then the boys are being complete fools no matter what. And as a viewer, if this was the long game, I would have rather been in on the con even if the boys weren't. Then I could have been rooting against Billie, The Empty, whatever. But I don't think Drabb is that clever and his one good writer left, who might have been able to pull off that kind of a twist and make it work. Drabb is writing a cartoon, IMO

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ahrtee

ahrtee

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

So is them wearing the same clothes as in the Pilot during the bridge scene one of the Easter Eggs?

I think them mentioning the Easter Eggs is (a) to make sure the "old" fans (who'd given up years ago) watch, and (b) to make sure they're paying more attention to the backgrounds and minor details than to the actual story, so maybe they'll come away happy(ish).

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think them mentioning the Easter Eggs is (a) to make sure the "old" fans (who'd given up years ago) watch, and (b) to make sure they're paying more attention to the backgrounds and minor details than to the actual story, so maybe they'll come away happy(ish).

Haha, good luck with the first one. And characters wearing callback-clothing is not exactly the epitome of what people expect from a Series Finale so I think they will notice the episose around it very much. 😀

Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

On 10/8/2020 at 9:30 PM, SueB said:


THEIR LAST SHOT!  If they stuck with the original plan, it’s also the actual last shot.  
 

Which puts Sam and Dean, together, on a bridge with Baby.  
 

Im a little scared.  

Is that the Woman in White Bridge? Is the clock winding back to the beginning as if it never happened? That was my guess. Dabb's big FU to fans. Chuck rewind the clock and says hey.... this is me not doing anything to help.

gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Is that the Woman in White Bridge? Is the clock winding back to the beginning as if it never happened? That was my guess. Dabb's big FU to fans. Chuck rewind the clock and says hey.... this is me not doing anything to help.

If he does that and doesn't leave them with their memories, then it'll be over at Faith, since the reverend won't be moved to heal him.

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

(edited)
15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If he does that and doesn't leave them with their memories, then it'll be over at Faith, since the reverend won't be moved to heal him.

Or Sam died in the house fire. Or Sam is EVIL and hates him. Or Sam didn't go on that hunting trip. There can be any number of helping hands by Chuck.

It's just there was the hint about the backwards holidays being meaningful and there they are on that bridge...

To me this could mean the Story going backwards or unwinding things back to a point to reverse somethinghe did that made a pivotal difference...

Or Chuck agrees to back down for a price and his price is I put everything back without my interference...

Who knows. MEH.

I think Dean will be the one unaffected and whatever is done is for Dean to witness. Chuck is interested in him. Chuck blew up when Dean wouldn't play ball. Chuck answers his calls. Chuck let's Dean change the story. Chuck is incredulous that Dean won't back down.

Of course all of this could just be ignored by Dabbler and Hacks.

They are lame.

 

Edited by Castiels Cat
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Terese

Terese

13 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Or Sam died in the house fire. Or Sam is EVIL and hates him. Or Sam didn't go on that hunting trip. There can be any number of helping hands by Chuck.

It's just there was the hint about the backwards holidays being meaningful and there they are on that bridge...

To me this could mean the Story going backwards or unwinding things back to a point to reverse somethinghe did that made a pivotal difference...

Or Chuck agrees to back down for a price and his price is I put everything back without my interference...

Who knows. MEH.

I think Dean will be the one unaffected and whatever is done is for Dean to witness. Chuck is interested in him. Chuck blew up when Dean wouldn't play ball. Chuck answers his calls. Chuck let's Dean change the story. Chuck is incredulous that Dean won't back down.

Of course all of this could just be ignored by Dabbler and Hacks.

They are lame.

 

As Chuck is just a metaphor for the writers, it's almost impossible to theorize about in show motivations or behaviors of him. For me, an incomprehensible direction the showrunner took to emphasize the writers and de-emphasize the characters, or rather, Sam and Dean.

Backwards, were the holidays backwards? It seemed they started with Christmas, because it is traditionally the most decorative and childlike. Then came Easter, then Halloween?

Dean destroyed the reset button which could be foreshadowing. 

I wish Dabb would stop with the flood or teasers, explanations, and skills. Or, I wish I could stop watching them. He gives everything thing away. Like a little kid who can't keep a secret.

ahrtee

ahrtee

31 minutes ago, Terese said:

Backwards, were the holidays backwards? It seemed they started with Christmas, because it is traditionally the most decorative and childlike. Then came Easter, then Halloween?

Thanksgiving was in there, too.  All I really remember is that and Halloween, and it ended with Jack's birthday which would have been May.  So...Christmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween...whatever they put in between, and then May?

 

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Terese

Terese

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Thanksgiving was in there, too.  All I really remember is that and Halloween, and it ended with Jack's birthday which would have been May.  So...Christmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween...whatever they put in between, and then May?

 

Yes, I think you are right. It may have been Thanksgiving, not Easter. You know what i keep hoping? That we really are watching a mirror universe since Moriah. Everything feels off. Our Sam and Dean, sort of; close, but no cigar. Devoid of real energy and real spirit., real agency. I thought the doppelganger episode was going to be our Sam and Dean until they showed the promo.

Maybe the Empty is doing or will be doing  the reversing. Going back to before the dawn of time and space when there was nothing. So it can go back to sleep.

Terese

Terese

(edited)

Mrs Butters was a very sympathetic character. Both Sam and Dean had initial reservations and adopted a wait and see approach, warming to her with each holiday and bagged lunch. They were also quite stoked about the monster radar. Not a flattering episode on one hand, yet showed them to be compassionate on the other hand(except for the vampires).

 

Oops posted wrong thread.

Edited by Terese
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SueB

SueB

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14 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Is that the Woman in White Bridge? Is the clock winding back to the beginning as if it never happened? That was my guess. Dabb's big FU to fans. Chuck rewind the clock and says hey.... this is me not doing anything to help.

No.  That was a "Truss" bridge in Woman in White.  The bridge they are on is either Beam or Arch.

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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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