Small Talk: The Prayer Closet

[thehorseofpower]

14 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I don't think anyone complained yesterday.  I think the thread closures yesterday were a result of the survey, and these will not be the only forums affected by the new policies.  Valid concerns were raised and are now being addressed.

If this is the case, then why aren't the specific concerns raised in the survey (such as one poster's statement that they raised an objection to Cade's nickname) being called out in the mod's note? Why are the posted rules for this forum not being reviewed and updated with new guidelines so we understand what is changing? The mods have given us nothing beyond objecting to thread titles (that were created by mods!) and stating blanketly that most of the content in the closed threads are somehow not good. Not good in what way? Are we no longer allowed to say Josh deserves to be in prison, given that his thread is one of the closed ones?

If the mods want to effect change, they should be clearly communicating what people object to and what actually goes against their new guidelines, instead of threatening a full forum closure out of the blue. For a mod team that claims to be against punitive measures, they certainly aren't practicing what they preach.

[Salacious Kitty]

22 minutes ago, AstridM said:

How? No one here even understands what the actual issues are and how to correct them. We aren’t able to change the thread titles ourselves .

You should bold the last sentence to get their attention. Although many attempts have been made to contact the mods to no avail. 

[satrunrose]

You know, I think this last conversation is emblematic of one of the big reasons why this approach to moderation is problematic. Without knowing what was objected to and why, in a vacuum of information, it's easy to jump to conclusions as to who found what offensive enough to complain and the motivations behind that. That means that instead of having a space where one could, theoretically, have a respectful debate about what makes a family structure or a person fair game for criticism (or not), everyone gets really defensive because they want to protect things that are important to them. 

Edited March 2 by satrunrose

[AstridM]

4 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

You should bold the last sentence to get their attention. Although many attempts have been made to contact the mods to no avail. 

Done!

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

You know, I think this last conversation is emblematic of one of the big reasons why this approach to moderation is problematic. Without what was objected to and why, in a vacuum of information, it's easy to jump to conclusions as to who found what offensive enough to complain about and the motivations behind that. That means that instead of having a space where one could, theoretically, have a respectful debate about what makes a family structure or a person fair game for criticism, everyone gets really defensive because they want to protect things that are important to them. 

True dat.

[Suzn]

17 hours ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Well, they don't seem to be very transparent if no one knows what went wrong.

Exactly.  There is not one specific word on what we are to do or not do.  It is crazy-making to be told to change our behavior without saying anything direct such as DON'T DO THIS, instead DO THIS.

If they are unable to clarify the issues, I think the site is finished, at least as we have enjoyed it.  I'm going to watch this for now, but I think I am probably done with it.

[RandomTrivia]

3 hours ago, Joan of Argh said:

At least this entire forum wasn’t deleted without any warning like the Royals forum a couple months ago and the Shopping Channel forum yesterday.

I haven’t seen the Mods do anything and I don’t think they’re allowed to do anything but housekeeping duties etc.

all of the deleting forums, locking threads and traffic light actions have been performed by the two Community Managers.

@cm-soupsipper and @CM-CrispMtAir

I mostly lurk, which is apparently why I am having hideous problems getting this reply to post. But, does anyone know of any equivalent to the royal family form, on Reddit or FB or anywhere, it disappeared suddenly while I was about two months behind? I miss the pictures of the outfits and the jewels. (especially since her majesty died, and King Charles just doesn’t have the fashion options that she did)

[oliviabenson]

7 minutes ago, RandomTrivia said:

I mostly lurk, which is apparently why I am having hideous problems getting this reply to post. But, does anyone know of any equivalent to the royal family form, on Reddit or FB or anywhere, it disappeared suddenly while I was about two months behind? I miss the pictures of the outfits and the jewels. (especially since her majesty died, and King Charles just doesn’t have the fashion options that she did)

R/royalsgossip on Reddit 

[Cattoy]

Has anyone started a pool on how long it will take this forum to die? It's the, what? fourth? fifth?, incarnation of TWOP.

[CalicoKitty]

9 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

If you can remember your password, you should be fine.  They don't delete accounts. I took a long sabbitcal from there, and was able to resume with my account when I returned. 😀

I did have to reset my password, but I'm good.  Now I need to find the correct forum.  Thanks for the reminder.

 

[oliviabenson]

1 minute ago, Cattoy said:

Has anyone started a pool on how long it will take this forum to die? It's the, what? fourth? fifth?, incarnation of TWOP.

4/1/24 look at the warning thing lol. 

[Cattoy]

3 minutes ago, oliviabenson said:

4/1/24 look at the warning thing lol. 

Oh, I meant the entire site, not just the Counting On subset. The same thing happens with every iteration. Moderation overreactions and other changes drive enough people away that it eventually dies, then a new version pops up, and history repeats itself.

[AstridM]

5 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

I did have to reset my password, but I'm good.  Now I need to find the correct forum.  Thanks for the reminder.

 

Me, too! I’m back in with the same username I have here. See you there!

[oliviabenson]

1 minute ago, Cattoy said:

Oh, I meant the entire site, not just the Counting On subset. The same thing happens with every iteration. Moderation overreactions and other changes drive enough people away that it eventually dies, then a new version pops up, and history repeats itself.

Same time frame, 2 months tops this whole site is out.

[libgirl2]

59 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

FreeJinger.org

Joining us easy, layout is similar. Many topics of discussion, from fundies to food. 

I know one poster here posts there because she has the same username. 😀

It's a safe spot with spirited debate, plentiful snark, and minimal moderation because we're adults. The best part, there is no banning or other childish games. 👍

Me? 

[thehorseofpower]

15 minutes ago, Cattoy said:

Has anyone started a pool on how long it will take this forum to die? It's the, what? fourth? fifth?, incarnation of TWOP.

If the way this forum is being treated is an indication of how the new management intends to treat everyone and manage the entirety of the forums, I can't imagine it will be long. Closing threads with no clear reasoning except for titles out of the members' control, alluding to member complaints with zero specificity resulting in members speculating and turning on each other, threatening to shut down an entire forum with no warning and no actual discussion or communication of changed posting rules, when said forum has existed for many years over which a decided tone and culture has developed, treating members like children and offering "badges" no one wants as some sort of reward instead of just being clear about what is now acceptable and what is not, failing to answer messages or respond to member questions.....and all the while claiming you are moving away from being "punitive."

Nope, definitely no problem brewing at all and nothing but fully functional leadership happening here.

[SnapHappy]

 

2 hours ago, Dehumidifier said:

Why do you stalk me with sarcastic laughing emojis? Immature in my opinion.

It's almost like a group of people here have the exact same cult-like mindset, and want to shout down others that don't slavishly agree with their every proclamation.  

Edited March 2 by SnapHappy

[Salacious Kitty]

30 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Me? 

Yes! 😀

49 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

I did have to reset my password, but I'm good.  Now I need to find the correct forum.  Thanks for the reminder.

 

I DMed one of the Helpmeets that there might be an influx of new members (or old members coming back). They're now aware of our plight. 

[BetyBee]

I have learned so much from the lovely Small Talkers here. I've received support in hard times and encouragement when needed. And I've gained a lot of valuable information from the very smart people who post here. I've made a couple of real friends through messaging. I think the plan is definitely to shut us down. I don't understand what the new owners are looking for - a smaller group of posters who post only positive things about the shows the management will allow discussion on, perhaps? I hope we all meet up elsewhere. I'll miss so many of you! Best of luck to one and all! ♥️

[crazycatlady58]

We still can go to Chit Chat so don't think everything is lost. We can talk there till it all shuts down.

[graybrown bird]

I am sad and flummoxed.  I don't think I've posted anything unkind or uncivil.  If the new Powers That Be want us to change how we post, then why is their guidance so vague and preachy?  Their directives seem painfully sincere but singularly unhelpful if they really want to effect change.

[Zella]

I'm also very confused and saddened by this. I've been here nearly 9 years and really enjoy the sense of community we've created here. It's not perfect, nor is any online space, but overall, I've found this one of the smartest, funniest, most supportive places I've ever encountered online. I really enjoyed reading the opinions of people from all walks of life. It seems the site owners are disappointed in the demographics of the commentariat but also discount the diverse perspectives that come from people all around the country and world, from very different professions and with very different religious beliefs, participating in these discussions and usually doing so amicably. 

I'm not going to repeat the articulate defenses others have made of this forum. But I would point out that if the administrators want in-depth, perceptive, challenging discussions, that's what this forum specialized in and what fundie snarkers have done for years. It may be overlaid with a veneer of sarcasm and hyperbole--and one can debate what constitutes ethical snarking--but while the rest of the world framed the Duggars as either a wholesome model family or a bunch of hilariously corny hicks, snarkers were the ones who first recognized that things were very rotten in Denmark. And the decade of scandals and criminal activity that's been revealed since has only proven that right. A lot of this was done through a strongly feminist perspective. There's something very cathartic about finding likeminded people who saw through the spin and hype. 

In any event, I wanted to thank all my fellow snarkers for all the laughs and thought-provoking stories we've exchanged over the years. Hoping I'll still see all of y'all around the internet.

Edited March 2 by Zella

[satrunrose]

Zella, just thought this is the right time to mention that I've really enjoyed reading your posts. I really appreciate the insight you've brought being from Arkansas and how you've used that to push back on the bumpkin image they hid behind. 

[Zella]

8 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

Zella, just thought this is the right time to mention that I've really enjoyed reading your posts. I really appreciate the insight you've brought being from Arkansas and how you've used that to push back on the bumpkin image they hid behind. 

Thank you! I have had a lot of fun over the years with my "hey, don't blame Arkansas for that facet of the Duggars" and "okay yes do blame Arkansas for that one" posts. 😂😂😂😂

[thehorseofpower]

3 hours ago, SnapHappy said:

 

It's almost like a group of people here have the exact same cult-like mindset, and want to shout down others that don't slavishly agree with their every proclamation.  

I haven't seen a cult-like mentality among the frequent posters here. I don't post much but read here almost every day. I see long-time members disagree and debate, particularly over Jill and Derick and their motivations, and typically this ends with an "agree to disagree" sort of sentiment. When I posted in Small Talk on occasion during the pandemic, I was welcomed immediately and received support and understanding even though I was not an every day poster. People did not always resoundingly agree with everything I posted on the Duggars, either, and this did not offend me but gave me food for thought. We have posters here who are Christians and posters who are atheists and everyone provides a unique perspective. I have learned a lot over the years just from the "Gimme That Old Time Religion" topic. It's a shame these new forum managers are seemingly only interested in looking at surface level topic titles and silly nicknames, both of which can be easily changed, rather than looking deeper at the real discourse had here on some very difficult topics.

One thing most of us do have in common, though, is that we think the Duggars and their ilk are extremely harmful, both to their own family system and potentially our larger society. A lot of us came here because we were horrified by what we were seeing on TV and found community in our mutual horror. And we come at these topics with a healthy dose of snark, because sometimes (at least for me) the snark softens that horror and gives us a way to talk about what we're seeing without becoming wholly depressed about it. If snark is not your thing, and you find yourself put off by the tone of this forum, or you don't think the Duggars' brand of religion is all that bad, I don't understand why you would continue to visit and post here. Every community has its own culture and personality, so if this one doesn't work for you, there are plenty of others to try out. This forum has always been moderated and any poster has always had the ability to report someone they feel is breaking a rule or attacking them. This has never been a free for all.  And now, apparently whatever complaints have been made by people who don't seem to enjoy the basic premise of this community have enough power to take it all down for everyone, because these new mods don't appear interested in having a conversation about our forum culture or our rules.

[Madtown]

Anyone else having issues reacting to a post? It won’t let me on any post, no matter how many reactions have been given. 

[Salacious Kitty]

But they should be honoring our repeated requests to come here and tell us what the NEW rules look like. At this point, we're all in the dark. There's no resolution going down that path. 

[ginger90]

37 minutes ago, Joan of Argh said:

That’s what they’re doing, the Mods have no say in the matter, they’re told what the new rules are and they enforce them.

Hey @Joan of Argh!! 😁

 

I have to question this. How can we know what the rules are? Obviously they have changed, as far as what is unacceptable/acceptable to post now, but there is nothing stating them for posters that I’ve seen. I haven’t seen any warning, no directives given related to any posts on any topic I post in. 

If we assume, we could be correct, or not. Just from what I’ve read different people saying  they think the problem is, there are posts that go against it currently being posted. Still, I see no Mod.

As far as the title of threads, we used to be able to see who created  them. That’s no longer the case. Posters can’t change them anyway even if some of us have created them. I don’t understand why the offending titles haven’t been changed.

 

Perhaps I’m in a COL bubble and this has all escaped me. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Edited March 3 by ginger90

[ginger90]

Two Mods? 🤯

[Salacious Kitty]

50 mods down to 2? That's crazy. 

[Joan of Argh]

Yup it’s easy enough to check just type in 

@Mod-

a list drops down and it currently says

@mod-bot (which is obviously a bot)

@Mod-Tigerkatze

@Mod-Tranquilizer

@Mod-LunarJester (which is apparently an acct used by the Community Managers)

If you type in

@cm-

it drops down the list with the 2 Community Managers

@CM-CrispMtAir and @cm-soupsipper

 

[dargosmydaddy]

Anyone else here a fan of Taskmaster? (Great show, highly recommend.) The red light is reminding me a bit of this task:

(Warning: video contains some NSFW language)

[Joan of Argh]

I guess I better not say anymore.

My post about Silverstormm and her mod team was deleted.

My post about the elephant in the room was deleted too.

I guess I hit a nerve and revealed too much 🤷‍♀️

Edited March 3 by Joan of Argh

[Absolom]

I can’t do reactions either.

[dargosmydaddy]

I still have reactions.

[GeeGolly]

Some of you know I've been a group facilitator for much of my career. For our Day Treatment and PHP programs we started each day reading off a list of group expectations. The (very few) rules were basically based on respect. Depending on the community one lives in, PHP is either 1 level or 2 levels below inpatient care. Folks at this level are deeply struggling with mental health issues often exacerbated by life events. For most, the group expectations make our groups feel safe, for a small number, any rule felt like a challenge.

These groups are diverse in so many ways - diagnoses, socioeconomic status, race, religion, profession, etc. A drug dealer could be sitting next to a college professor. A scared young adult could be sitting next to a seasoned matriarch. Someone with schizophrenia could be sitting next to someone with an adjustment disorder.

My (tired) mixed and jumbled point is something magical happens in groups - truly magical. A diverse community of folks coming together with common goals, growing, learning, laughing and hopefully reaching their goals. Without concrete expectations this could not happen. Just like the common goal of driving from point A to point B could not happen without stop signs, traffic lights, speed limits, etc.

IMO, we too have created something magical here in the Duggar forums. And yes, we've needed guidelines and occasional nudges from mods to get back on track. But part of the magic is when we organically create a fun and inclusive space by understanding and responding to the nuances that come when forming a community.

My hope is we continue to have this space for years to come. And my thanks to each and everyone of you who has contributed to the magic we've all made.

Now for a round of Kumbaya. (too soon?) 😬

[Salacious Kitty]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm scared, lol.

Aw, it's just another message board, much like this one. Very user friendly. 😀

[GeeGolly]

31 minutes ago, Joan of Argh said:

I guess I better not say anymore.

My post about Silverstormm and her mod team was deleted.

My post about the elephant in the room was deleted too.

I guess I hit a nerve and revealed too much 🤷‍♀️

Huh, so we're not here alone. And I'm only in a T and boxers. 😁

[oliviabenson]

1 hour ago, Joan of Argh said:

I guess I better not say anymore.

My post about Silverstormm and her mod team was deleted.

My post about the elephant in the room was deleted too.

I guess I hit a nerve and revealed too much 🤷‍♀️

I missed the posts lol

[peppergal]

I've been thinking, there is a reason that ex post facto laws are expressly forbidden by the US Constitution.  Obviously this site is a private entity not legally required to adhere to said prohibition.  Morality is of course not the same as legality so while they are legally in the clear I leave it to the reader to decide on their morality.

It says a lot to me personally about the ethics and maturity of the new leadership that they appear to have chosen the path and method they have.  You can't foster personal growth by punishing someone for something they did that was permitted at the time it was done and not even telling them what specifically they did that got your undergarments twisted so they can make an attempt at changing.

If instead of growth and learning, the goal is to drive off or even outright ban a large portion of the members and turn the carcass of the site into some sort of barren echo chamber where the remaining people copy and paste platitudes in pursuit of digital bling while paid advertisers flee to higher traffic sites until they can no longer afford to keep it open, they are certainly off to a grand start.  Who knows, maybe that's exactly what they want. 

All I know for sure is I'm getting a doubleplus-ungood feeling.

[Love2dance]

I am so confused and sad. I’ve belonged to this forum since TWOP and feel that I’ve developed true virtual friendships here, especially on the small talk thread. I have no idea what the new administrators want, but am so sad that they can just make this all disappear.

If it happens, can anyone tell me where we can find each other on Reddit? Or elsewhere? I’m pretty old, and just hanging in there with all this new fangled technology. 🤣
Anyway, I just want to thank you all for the many, many hours of virtual community we have been able to participate in. I’m really hoping the forum stays open, but doesn’t become something unrecognizable from the supportive family we have nurtured. I will miss you all so much if it evaporates.

[Ancaster]

5 hours ago, Madtown said:

Anyone else having issues reacting to a post? It won’t let me on any post, no matter how many reactions have been given. 

 

4 hours ago, Absolom said:

I can’t do reactions either.

Along with the kindergarten red light, green light games and the badges we're supposed to aspire to (though surely we'll all get one because God forbid anyone should feel left out), perhaps they've also instituted a virtual naughty seat where you have to be silent and therefore can't react to anyone else.

[Absolom]

Obviously my reactions came back.

[thehorseofpower]

8 hours ago, Joan of Argh said:

I guess I better not say anymore.

My post about Silverstormm and her mod team was deleted.

My post about the elephant in the room was deleted too.

I guess I hit a nerve and revealed too much 🤷‍♀️

I saw your post last night. So clearly there is a mod in this thread, choosing not to engage with us on the questions on the new rules and saving our forum, but deleting posts that explain the change in leadership and their apparent decision to get rid of this forum for reasons that I still don't really understand (we're not "diverse" enough? They don't like sarcasm?). How helpful and mature of them.

I guess the time we've been given to "elevate the quality of our conversations" or some such nonsense is just a farce to make it look like we have any power to change anything.

[mythoughtis]

9 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

 

Some of you know I've been a group facilitator for much of my career. For our Day Treatment and PHP programs we started each day reading off a list of group expectations. The (very few) rules were basically based on respect. Depending on the community one lives in, PHP is either 1 level or 2 levels below inpatient care. Folks at this level are deeply struggling with mental health issues often exacerbated by life events. For most, the group expectations make our groups feel safe, for a small number, any rule felt like a challenge.

These groups are diverse in so many ways - diagnoses, socioeconomic status, race, religion, profession, etc. A drug dealer could be sitting next to a college professor. A scared young adult could be sitting next to a seasoned matriarch. Someone with schizophrenia could be sitting next to someone with an adjustment disorder.

 

Those would be the type of online groups that are the perfect fit for the new direction the forum is headed in: coaching, creating, self transformation,  etc.  Badges and  other visible forms  of support and love.   Rules to prevent tearing down the little bit of self confidence a member has. 
 

I just don’t see a forum to discuss tv shows as being that sort of group.  It’s basically an online groups of friends gossiping about the show from last night.   I anticipate all the reality tv disappearing  from this forum because of the new discussion rules.    I’m not going to say kind words about  Josh Duggar for example. So if I can’t offer a negative opinion of him, then his thread is useless.   Now if what’s being removed is one poster being rude to another poster, then yes, the removal  of the post is warranted. 

[crazycatlady58]

6 hours ago, Love2dance said:

I am so confused and sad. I’ve belonged to this forum since TWOP and feel that I’ve developed true virtual friendships here, especially on the small talk thread. I have no idea what the new administrators want, but am so sad that they can just make this all disappear.

If it happens, can anyone tell me where we can find each other on Reddit? Or elsewhere? I’m pretty old, and just hanging in there with all this new fangled technology. 🤣
Anyway, I just want to thank you all for the many, many hours of virtual community we have been able to participate in. I’m really hoping the forum stays open, but doesn’t become something unrecognizable from the supportive family we have nurtured. I will miss you all so much if it evaporates.

We can go to Chit Chat to keep in touch till we find another place.

[GeeGolly]

46 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

Those would be the type of online groups that are the perfect fit for the new direction the forum is headed in: coaching, creating, self transformation,  etc.  Badges and  other visible forms  of support and love.   Rules to prevent tearing down the little bit of self confidence a member has. 
 

I just don’t see a forum to discuss tv shows as being that sort of group.  It’s basically an online groups of friends gossiping about the show from last night.   I anticipate all the reality tv disappearing  from this forum because of the new discussion rules.    I’m not going to say kind words about  Josh Duggar for example. So if I can’t offer a negative opinion of him, then his thread is useless.   Now if what’s being removed is one poster being rude to another poster, then yes, the removal  of the post is warranted. 

I so agree. 

If I was to facilitate a group with say a transphobic robo-caller, a  breadwinner who puts reputation and money before family, a mean-girl mother who believes her way is the only right way and an angry man who berates others publicly, my approach would be different. A therapeutic group is not a place for me to share my opinions about what I personally consider shortcomings.

This is because my IRL job is to help folks meet their mental health goals. This doesn't mean isms would be tolerated during a group - they wouldn't, but my job is to provide judgement free therapy, meeting the clients where they are at.

Discussing public figures in an online forum is different. Its a place to share thoughts and opinions from our own perceptions, our own moral compasses and kind of unpack little microcosms of society, together with other folks wanting to do the same.

Calling say, Josh Duggar smug is an opinion, calling him a sex offender is a fact. We should be allowed to share both. Calling him a fat, greasy scumbag is way different than calling him a felon who committed egregious acts. IMO we all walk that fine line very well more often than not.

Life isn't always pretty and discussing the ugly parts isn't a bad thing.

[DXD526]

It's confusing and very disappointing what's going on with this forum, but if it goes away, I'll really miss all you magnificent bastids! These Dugg threads sometimes provide the only laugh I get all day. That's invaluable, and I'll miss it a lot. 

[CalicoKitty]

11 hours ago, oliviabenson said:

I missed the posts lol

I posted a rather long, and kind, post before I went to bed comparing our group here to what I found on FreeJinger yesterday. ( I found a lot of politics, bad language, and bad grammar (LOL)), and stated that it has changed a lot since I left there to come here.  I also praised our group for tolerance, kindness, and caring.  My post is nowhere to be found.

[Madtown]

7 hours ago, Absolom said:

Obviously my reactions came back.

Mine too. That was weird though