S03.E07: Draw Back Your Bow

[Artsda]

I LOVED this episode. Any episode with a good amount of Felcity and no Laurel is a win.

Like someone else pointed out above, Ray is Oliver 2.0 to Felicty - equally rich, equally handsome, (almost) equally looks-good-without-his-shirt, equally heroic (Ray is "interested in making the world a better place"), but, unlike Oliver 1.0, a fellow awkward genius, good at business, and, probably most important, isn't shy about showing an obvious interest in and appreciation for Felicity. He's also not PTSD and not a manwhore hooking up with psychos right in her face (Oliver's treatment of Felicity last year really annoyed me. He has to do a lot better for me to feel he deserves to be with her.)

How can she resist when he is a (seemingly) better version of Oliver?

And YET, Ray pulled away from that kiss when he was obviously very into it - and went to go play with his ATOM suit. So, I am afraid Felicity is doomed to fall for unavailable rich, handsome, hero-type that put making the world a better place a priority over having a life with her.

ITA with all of this.

 

When Oliver's out there saying things like he can't be with anyone ever and he's made that decision to not be with her. I can't fault Felicity for liking spending time with someone without all those issues. Ray's "lighter" in a way, like he belongs on The Flash. He's Oliver, but a more healthier mentally version. 

 

Love Diggie actually spending time with both Oliver and Felicity. Trying to do meddling on Oliver's behalf because he thinks he made a mistake.

 

Cupid was interesting and I liked Thea story with the DJ. I guess she'll be kissing Austin Butler with Roy seeing soon.

[TanyaKay]

The fact that every person online wants Merlyn to kill DJ Jerkface fills my heart with happiness.

He should be killed, mercilessly.

[BkWurm1]

Ray and Felicity and all their stuff. 

 

The real problem is the content of this episode should not have happened until after the show gave us at least ONE moment of Felicity being impressed by Ray and apparently his plan to save the world.  One time is all I ask but nope, that’s never happened.

 

He starts as annoying stalker guy and at most gets bumped up to understanding boss and a shoulder to cry on but never had we seen one instance of Felicity believing in Ray or his purpose.  The closest we got was her being willing to work up some numbers for his co-generation heating/energy plan.  Now Palmer has from the get go been spouting his resolve to save the city and rebrand Starling but she had only been shown to show up and do the work and more often than not skip out on work.  She was not drinking the Kool-Aid but the Felicity in this episode most certainly had been.

 

All it would have taken was one episode showing Felicity excited by her work or invested in Ray’s plans and this episode would have worked but we never did and so Felicity is acting like a moonstruck fan. 

 

I was fine with her reaction to Ray on the Salmon Ladder.  That was just a physical reaction and kind of hilarious.  Side note:  Did we actually see BR doing it?  I think I saw one rung but the camera kept cutting away so not sure if it was all smoke and mirrors or what.

 

I also didn’t have a problem with her dress reaction or even her awe at wearing millions in diamonds.  She can be both superiorly awesome and dazzled by shiny things.  Yes, she let the dress win over her company on a work dinner but she wasn’t being coerced into doing something distasteful.  By the time she was dressed up and ready to go to dinner, going was more about proving she had the right to go than anything else.  Yes the diamonds were yummy, but they weren’t buying anything from her. 

 

That speech she made about Ray, that apparently came from the writers personal fan fiction since is certainly had nothing to back it up on the show.  So in the end, I was disappointed with the show for selling something that hadn’t been earned even if I’m still assuming it’s just a place holder rebound thing.  So fail on the Raylicity romance. Also wasn’t a fan of Ray breaking off the kiss and walking away with Felicity apparently more than willing to continue the kiss.  Sigh. 

 

As for Felicity’s excitement over the rebranding of Queen Consolidated, that’s part of the stuff we never saw.  All we needed was to see her rolling up her sleeves and getting invested in the good that Palmer was going to do and I could have bought into her pleasure in the rebranding.  She even does the same amused finger twirl that Ray did about the logo.  Felicity, I can believe, could get caught up and excited about the changes but we never saw even a hint of that and that makes it completely OOC. 

I can’t believe even for a second she wouldn’t have mentioned the name change.  I have to assume that they did know it was coming, but seeing it was hard anyway.  Either that or Felicity assumed Oliver gave up everything to do with his company when he gave her up.  That’s big fail for the show.

 

Now Oliver showing up just in time to see the kiss.  Sigh.  What was the point really? 

 

Diggle tells him Felicity heard what he said and that she had the look of someone who is not willing to live the rest of her life alone.  So what the hell was Oliver going to tell her?  Were we to believe that he was going to step up and say he’s changed his mind?  If that was the case just seeing her kissing rebound guy isn’t going to stop him.  Oliver is not short on ego, I really can’t believe he’d think if he was all in that Felicity would say too late.  (I mean I hope she’d make him prove it, but she’s only known Ray for a month and a half right?) 

 

Oliver has to know he’d win if he was serious about being serious.  So that means he was going there to say what?  Yeah, about all that stuff you just heard me say about still absolutely believing I have to be alone?  Yeah, nothing’s changed but I don’t want you to see other men.  Oh, but I want you to be happy.  

 

Take your self-made man pain and shove it. 

 

This whole story line pisses me off.  It’s a no win.  Oliver gets to be miserable when he sees Felicity moving on but he’s the ass that is telling her again and again he’s going to wallow in his misery rather than even try or even plan for a future when he might try.   Felicity in turn gets to be more and more removed from the heart of the team.  She’s still there doing her job, but we are being robbed of the emotional connection.  Hence why watching this show makes me depressed. 

 

At least before even when they were losing to the bad dudes and it was all depressing I could look forward to them rallying around each other and we got to enjoy their closeness but now it’s a boys club.  Laurel just disrupts things and Felicity is being cut out is seems, Thea is not in the loop, and Sara, of course is dead.

 

  I don’t like it.  I really don’t like it.

Edited November 20, 2014 by BkWurm1

[CarBe]

I get the feeling Oliver was showing up to Felicity's office just to be a c--- block and be his usual selfish self - to tell her yet again I sort of love you (a very awful sort of love that means endangering Felicity's life week after week) but I have to be alone because of the "life I've chosen". I am tired of Oliver being wishy washy over Felicity - it's episode 7 already, let's show some movement. I, too, used to really enjoy the show when it was just Diggle, Oliver, and Felcity but it's moved on so I guess I have to, too. Honestly, wishy-washy stuck-in-a-rut Oliver has grown boring (and could SA at least put on a tank top because eye candy was a fun part of Arrow and he took that away from us) and that is why I am enjoying the Ray Palmer character so much this season.

Edited November 20, 2014 by CarBe

[ostentatious]

And while I am happy.. umm: wouldn't Palmer's company already have a Vice President? sooo are we missing something about her title? (or did I miss something?)

  

Companies have many VPs. She's VP of Something Unmentioned like the dress is Something Unmentioned Couture.

I thought the kiss was handled well. I got the sense neither had thought of each other romantically at all until this ep, mainly because they both live in their heads and hadn't taken the time to notice the other was attractive. Then he turned out to have very nice lats and she turned out to look good in evening wear, and they both said nice things about each other's competence (that knowing how to treat assets speech was about Felicity like every asset speech is) that they would find complimentary because they like being appreciated for those reasons. The kiss itself was brief and not intense, surprised them both, and Felicity was neither into it nor bothered by it, which is exactly how I felt about it.

Ray's entire job is to be Non-Hesitating Oliver, and he is doing it well. This isn't supposed to be subtle because he isn't a real love interest. He isn't even primarily ship interference. He is there for Oliver to compare and contrast himself to, so of course he has to come up against him in every way.

I definitely think we're going to discover that he wants Felicity to be the Atom's Mission Control, but I don't think that's about Oliver, per se. I think he wanted to do this Atom thing and identified the Arrow as someone already at something similar, did his oppo research, and discovered that the secret to Arrow's success was his Mission Control, so he acquired her. Why develop an asset when you can buy one that is already perfect? That is the entire Acquisition mentality.

I think he would be doing the same thing only different if MC was a guy. I don't think this is about getting into her skirts so much as it is him experimenting with how to gain her loyalty. Some things did not work, so he tried another thing.

I also did not think she went to dinner with him because of the dress. She is used to working evening business events and would've gone anyway. The dress, which she inexplicably loved but whatever, just expedited the agreement. If there had been no dress the conversation would've simply included "What's the attire?" and "Semi-formal, expense it."

However, couture dresses by definition do not have dangling tags, dude. Come on.

She was not *bought* and her behavior was not inappropriate.

Wrt not telling Oliver about the renaming...he forgot she was out to dinner with Ray, so maybe that's another thing she told him that he forgot until it was right in his face.

[CarBe]

Felicity being more and more removed from team Arrow and Ray wanting her for Atom's MC (good point!) - temporary or permanent? That ATOM suit at the end looked pretty substational for a one season guest arc. The show is definitely setting things up to be ambiguous with regards to Felicity's future. I loved the suit reveal at the end.

[wonderwall]

I'm pretty sure this is the first time I'm going to disagree with a lot of you! I actually really liked this episode. I guess I'll break down my thoughts.

 

The good:

• Cupid. I loved her. She was the perfect amount of crazy. It's actually the type of villain I love watching. And I swear at one point I just felt so sorry for her. I love how Carrie called Oliver 'Lover' throughout the episode. Felicity was right, it's a creepy word no matter how you say it.  
• Oliver finally FINALLY opening up about his feelings. His desperation, jealousy, sadness was definitely palpable and I think Stephen did an amazing job portraying that. While, yes, Oliver did make his bed regarding his feelings for Felicity and deciding not to pursue it, I still couldn't help but sympathize with him. Oliver is severely emotionally messed up and it was nice to see even the therapist say that he needed to see a shrink. But in this episode, I suppose that role was filled by Diggle (which I will talk about in a few). Also I'm glad that we can see Oliver taking those small steps back to regaining his humanity. This episode it was Oliver going to family dinner with Digg/Roy/Lyla. Also, I think sometimes we all forget that Oliver is at war with himself. His heart tells him he wants Felicity, he yearns for that life, but at the same time his brain tells him to shut those feelings down because he can't be the Arrow and Oliver which is why he can't seem to let Felicity go. While it's not fair to Felicity, I can see why he's having so much trouble doing so.  
• Diggle is back to being the rock of the group. While everyone is fraying at the corners, Diggle is there to lead the people he is closest to, and in this episode he's there for Oliver. I love this relationship so much and I'm glad to see Diggle guide Oliver through his emotional journey. While I think Felicity is key in Oliver regaining his humanity, so is Diggle. He obviously knows Oliver well enough to know how he feels, to get him to open up, to gently push him in the right direction. I thought it was great! Now I just hope to see Digg interact with Felicity without bringing up the subject of her romantic life. I want to see the friendship we saw in season 2.
• I loved how Felicity is still standing her ground. How she's not backing down because Oliver feels bad about her relationship with Ray (I'll talk about this one later). I love how Felicity loves herself more than anyone else on the show. How she won't let herself go through emotional turmoil for a man who doesn't even know what he wants in life. This is what I love about Felicity the most. She is strong. She may not be physically strong, but she's emotionally and mentally strong. I don't think she was insensitive in this episode. I think that she's challenging Oliver. And it's great to see how much of an effect she has on him. And now she's VP?! YES. Felicity is moving up in this world and there's nothing that can stop her. 
• Roy and Oliver are flourishing as student/mentors respectively. Last episode was a bit jarring for me because I felt like their relationship was really contrived/forced. But their friendship seemed more natural to me this episode. Now I just hope we see Digg and Roy interact. I don't think Digg likes Roy that much lol
• Ray telling Felicity that she deserves 'all those things and more' because you're god damn right she does.
• No Laurel. Quite frankly I didn't miss her. The episode was a lot more cohesive without her which I loved.

The bad:

• Ray is coming off extremely creepy what with him bribing Felicity to go to that 'work' dinner with him. I actually found the whole 'work date' thing to be a bit jarring. Since when did Felicity gain such affectionate feelings towards Ray? I mean I understand that they probably spend a lot of time off screen, but that's what kills that relationship for me. Ray/Felicity is a new thing. We NEED to see the early development of their relationship or we'll miss the entire point of it. I don't really see Felicity crushing on Ray, but I can see why Ray likes Felicity and it's not because of what I've seen on screen. I understand why Ray likes her because I like her. I understand Felicity, I know why someone would love her. That's not a good thing for a relationship. I didn't like how he leaned in to kiss Felicity only to back off saying he wanted to keep the night platonic. No. That wasn't chivalrous. And to be honest I only see Felicity kissing him because of what she heard Oliver say on the comms. It seems like Ray is Felicity's rebound and god help me even though I don't like Ray, I don't like how Felicity is stringing him along. I know that Felicity will have to move on at some point, but I'm not a fan of rebounds :/ It just hurts like hell. 
• That kiss was insanely awkward. I don't see any romantic chemistry between EBR/BR. Sorry! I hope Ray walking away from Felicity marks the end of them. Although I'm sure it's not. 
• Whatever shitty side plot Thea has with that DJ dude is just unnecessary. It was terrible and I'd rather have them cut these parts and focus on the things that mattered like Diggle/Felicity bonding, the dinner at Digg's place, seeing Cupid do more crazy things etc. 
• While I liked some scenes regarding Felicity, she felt off to me the entire episode. I didn't really like seeing this shallow side of Felicity. I know everyone has a shallow side, but I just never thought Felicity would be so enchanted by jewelry and dresses, enough to knowingly be bribed by her boss to go out to a work dinner with him. It's just not the woman I know. While I understand that she is the type of woman who loves style, it just felt off that she didn't call Ray out on his behavior. I guess this is what happens when you rush a relationship just to burn through plot. 

 

Overall I thought it was a solid episode. Maybe it's because I watched it with super low expectations, but I think it's because we're finally seeing Oliver develop emotionally and we're actually seeing him GO a certain direction instead of remaining stagnant. I hope we see more of Felicity's emotions regarding Oliver because this episode sort of made me think that Oliver's love for Felicity is far deeper than her love for him. I know I'm wrong, but it'd be nice to see Felicity be more explicit towards her feelings for Oliver... I don't mean that she has to open up to him, but I would like to see her open up to Digg about how she feels. I thought it was a great character episode for Oliver, maybe not Felicity or Oliver/Felicity, but I thought it was good for Oliver to finally see what he lost. 

 

My hope for something we'll see in future episodes: Family dinner with the entire Team Arrow and Lyla. It felt weird that Felicity wasn't there for dinner and it sort of made me sad to see Felicity so removed from the team right now. 

Edited November 20, 2014 by wonderwall

[Agent Dark]

Katana!  Fk yeah!  Her husband seems like a pretty cool guy, but can he die already so his soul can inhabit her sword?  Talking swords are awesome.  I hope she sticks around. 

 

The Atom!  Fk yeah!  Now that The Flash has straight up introduced superpowers, I hope they go all the way and do his full shrinking to sub-atomic size stuff.  I've always loved the way he dials a telephone number, shrinks to a sub-atomic size and rides the electrons as they travel down the copper wires to the phone he dialed.  That's pretty awesome.

 

Captain Boomerang!  Fk yea-  wait a minute.  Why did they cast an actor of Lebanese descent (Nick E. Tarabay) to play an Australian character (Captain Boomerang), and cast an Australian actor (Matthew Nable) to play a character of an, admittedly unspecified, Middle Eastern background (Ra's al Ghul)?  That's kinda weird.  Also kinda weird that Captain Boomerang first appears on Arrow and not Flash, even if it was a leadup to the big crossover. 

[Starfish35]

So I did watch it, and I thought it was pretty good. AG was very good as Cupid, and I wouldn't mind seeing her back again. I agree that Oliver was holding back in their fight - he wanted to get her help, not hurt her. I don't know how she'll do on the Suicide Squad, but I really can't imagine that she's nuttier than Harley Quinn, Lyla's opinion not withstanding.

I also enjoyed getting more of Diggle and Oliver and Roy and Oliver. Those scenes were good. And I liked Diggle inviting them over.

This was the first I'd seen of the Hong Kong flashbacks, so I don't really have much of a context for most of it, but Katana turned out to be as awesome as I hoped she'd be when this actress was cast. The two handed katana fight! And then the change in her eyes from dangerous to shattered vulnerability when she thought her husband had been killed. Sadly I think this is probably just foreshadowing for his eventual fate, since if I understand correctly (spoilered for comics)

that is her origin story in the comics, the murder of her husband and son.

The Ray/Felicity stuff did not bother me as much as I thought it might. I did think that there were a couple of strange scenes. The whole salmon ladder thing....eh. Honestly, personally I just don't find BR to be that hot, so this just felt like a ham-fisted way to make him like Oliver. And yes, I did think her swooning over the dress was OOC. And if Ray was not in last week's episode (which I did not see), I'm not sure how we got from where they were in 3x05 to her making dreamy-eyed passionate speeches about him at dinner. All that being said, while I recognized the OOC behavior, it didn't really make me angry the way Time of Death did, and in retrospect I think that was less about writing Felicity as OOC and more about (what I felt was) her being written as childish/juvenile.

I will say (just my two cents worth) while I'm not invested in Olicity one way or the other, either for or against, I'm really not (at least in this episode) seeing Raylicity being written as a genuine serious alternative. They're pulling out all the standard tropes, and I totally get why that would be annoying, but the way it's all structured, I think the audience is definitely still supposed to be rooting for Oliver and Felicity, not Ray and Felicity.

The only thing that really annoyed me about the episode was the new DJ. Instant hate. Thea, you can do so so much better. And it probably betrays me as part of the "get off my lawn" generation, but I couldn't tell how his music was so much better than the guy that got fired. Ah well. Maybe Malcolm will perform a public service and get rid of him.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Starfish35

[ostentatious]

Good point. Tarabay is three years younger than Nable, but neither is actually old enough to play KL's father were this a normal show anyway, so that doesn't matter to me at all.

[wonderwall]

 

Lmao, Digg channeling Fury. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ray's whole dress and necklace thing was way too Pretty Woman for me. I was trying to tell myself that this was the writers' way of contrasting how Ray and Oliver treat Felicity. Even if Oliver was still rich, he wouldn't have done something like that, not because he isn't thoughtful or generous but because he wouldn't want to seem like he was being flashy with his money with her. While I totally understand how fun it can be to have someone buy you a fancy dress, that dress didn't do it for me. If you're going to go couture, don't get a plain blue dress that looks like you could buy a version of in the teen prom section at Macy's.

 

I liked Cupid. She was just the right amount of crazy to be fun. I think she might be a bit too much on a regular basis so I can't complain that she's gone, but I enjoyed having her around for one episode.

 

I think I'm gonna call the DJ WannaBe Fishlips.  He reminds me of that guy from Glee.

I know DJ Wannabe Fishlips as Sebastian on The Carrie Diaries (RIP) but when he showed up in Verdant, the first thing I thought was wait, why is Chord Overstreet on this show? For some reason I didn't mind his monotone mumbling on The Carrie Diaries but it really annoyed me on Arrow. Hey, I'm fickle. I'm sure it didn't help that he was playing a DJ because they are THE WORST.

 

Favorite dumb moment: the almighty DJ, who owns everyone, had that overplayed Lil Jon song on his playlist.  Hey, I can download Lil Jon songs, and be a badass DJ myself!

I used to work at a very popular overpriced club that was known for having famous DJs play on the weekends and it is ridiculous that these people get paid to stand up there while they click play on their MacBooks. Not to sound like an old fart, but I remember when DJs actually mixed live. To me there is no point to paying someone to play what's on their iTunes playlist. I can do that for free! So yeah, I might be a little bit biased against DJ Fishlips.

[Ceylon5]

It's interesting how different Felicity looks without her glasses - to me she seems younger and more vulnerable without them.

 

For those complaining that we didn't see build-up to show Felicity liking her job and admiring what Ray is doing, I think that this episode was supposed to be exactly that.  Granted it wasn't gradual or carefully written, but this is Arrow, so...

 

I'm not sure why people are assuming that Oliver didn't know that QC's name was going to be changed.  He didn't know Felicity was going to be at a press conference with Ray when he wanted her working on the Arrow Cave, but I think it's a bit of a leap to assume that he therefore didn't know about the name change either.  We never even saw the scene where he and the others found out about her new job, her office, etc., so to expect them to include an extra scene with Felicity telling him this when the story could combine telling the audience about the name change and have Oliver react to Felicity standing by Ray's side simultaneously is probably expecting more than this show is likely to ever deliver.  Leaving giant gaping plot holes and missing emotional beats is sort of their thing.

 

Using the same wording for Ray's speech/vision for Starling as Oliver always uses was super clunky.  As was the salmon ladder bit.  Also, as Felicity mentioned with surprise (dismay?), it was inexplicably missing the next time she went to his office.  So did he also rent that for the day to impress her?  Or does he have a shrinking salmon ladder that he can slip into a drawer when not in use?

 

I didn't get the point of having Ray buy Felicity a dress.  It was unnecessary and just seems to have annoyed a lot of the audience (I didn't care one way or the other, other than wondering how he found a dress that fitted her so well - that's some kind of super-power right there).  My impression was that Felicity wanted to accept the dinner invitation from the time he asked her, but she's grown fairly comfortable with her semi-antagonistic, bolshie relationship with Ray, so didn't want to appear too quick to agree.  Hence using the dress as an excuse.  The writers could have thought of a less random, weird way of doing it, though.  The necklace, was, I assume, a plot device to put them in close enough proximity to enable the kiss to happen.  Again, they could have used something simpler and less weird.  Anyway, whatever.

 

I, too, am wondering what on earth Oliver was planning to say to Felicity when he went to her office.  Because unless it was "I was wrong and want to be with you.  Please forgive me and take me back. I won't screw this up again."  then he jolly well needs to stay away and stop messing with her head.  Somehow I doubt that's what he planned to say, but if it was, then he still needs to say it and sooner rather than later.  Since he's unlikely to do it on the Flash crossover, him procrastinating until 3x09 seems pretty stupid given that she's clearly trying hard to move on.  Faint heart never won fair lady, Oliver.  Move it or lose out.

 

Anyway, I didn't really find Felicity out of character this episode.  Attracted to hot, abs-rich guys? Check.  Half-resistant, half-intrigued by Ray? Check.  Trying to please everyone and always answering her phone?  Check.  She's an idealist at heart, which is why she's on Team Arrow, and also why she's getting caught up in and inspired by Ray's plans to help the city.  She gets starry eyed about stuff like that, which is something I like about her.  She believed in Oliver without much reason to.  She also believes in Ray (and at least he's not a stone-cold killer like Oliver was when she first signed on with him, which seems like a giant plus to me).  That's fine by me.  That's who she is.  Maybe she's wrong about him.  Maybe not.  Either way, I never felt like she was being pushed around.  She's making her choices and standing by them.  I respect that.

[Shanna]

Welp, at least Oliver's outburst wasn't JUST because he saw Felicity kissing Ray. I'm pretty sure it's because he decided to go see her and tell her how he feels about her and then once he saw her with Ray he was frustrated because he knows he blew it. :(..

That was how I saw it too. He waited too long, just like Diggle said. Also, we haven't really seen what felicity thinks of it. He kissed her and she went with it- I think she was just trying things on for size to see how it fits.

I like the Hong Kong stuff. I like the actors especially the husband which means he will probably die.

Also, I think dinner a lylas happened after felicity had dinner with ray, so there was no reason to invite her to second dinner.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Shanna

[loki567]

 

I love how Carrie called Oliver 'Lover' throughout the episode. Felicity was right, it's a creepy word no matter how you say it.

 

Holy crap. Was that some really good foreshadowing or pure coincidence? 

[Ariah]

Well, that was a very CW episode. At times I felt like watching the Vampire Diaries or Beauty and the Beast. There's nothing wrong in that, it's just... I'm not used to this amount of romantic soapiness. Especially if it butchers characters in order to set up certain scenes.

 

Oliver was suprisingly in character this episode. But I didn't recognize Felicity - this wasn't Felicity I knew from season 1 and 2. Don't get me wrong, what this girl did and how she acted was justified and plausible-ish. But this is not how the Felicity I know and love would act. It's like a CW heroine would have acted. Hey, it's like a Laurel would have acted.

 

So this girl (not yet ready to call her Felicity) loves Oliver (but does she really? I mean, really?). Oliver makes a terrible choice and makes her and himself miserable in the process. She has her heart broken. Then an Oliver-stand in, who basically stalks her, enters her life. All of a sudden she goes from "you're a stalker" to "hey, I may have a crush on you, because you're doing the salmon ladder and buying me expensive dresses in a color that makes my complexion look too pale". And the girl goes for it. Suddenly, she has this belief in the Oliver-stand in that she expresses. Suddenly, she's ok with being bought with expensive things and words of awkwardness. Suddenly, she leans into a kiss with an elmost stranger.

 

But Felicity (yes, there was a Felicity this episode!) tries the waters. She wants Oliver to tell her "I don't want you to go with Palmer!". She wants Oliver to be selfish and she blames him for being selfless. It's twisted.

 

I'd rather have her tell him what she feels, like she told him what to do in 2.22 / 2.23. Maybe shout at him, to get through his thick skull.

 

I wonder now how awkward things will be between those people:

Oliver will probably avoid eye contact with Felicity and resort to passive-aggressiveness,

Felicity will not understand why Oliver acts how he does and why Ray stopped the kiss,

Ray will continue to scheme and pretend to be Oliver.

 

Still, I don't believe the Felicity I know would be bought by a fancy dress (a fancy piece of tech - yes).

[Danny Franks]

 

So this girl (not yet ready to call her Felicity) loves Oliver (but does she really? I mean, really?). Oliver makes a terrible choice and makes her and himself miserable in the process. She has her heart broken. Then an Oliver-stand in, who basically stalks her, enters her life. All of a sudden she goes from "you're a stalker" to "hey, I may have a crush on you, because you're doing the salmon ladder and buying me expensive dresses in a color that makes my complexion look too pale". And the girl goes for it. Suddenly, she has this belief in the Oliver-stand in that she expresses. Suddenly, she's ok with being bought with expensive things and words of awkwardness. Suddenly, she leans into a kiss with an elmost stranger.

 

Maybe they should have had Stephen Amell play Ray, wearing a wig and a false nose. If David Schwimmer can do it, then surely Stephen Amell can. That's how tired this 'I'm gonna date someone who's just like the guy I like, but not quite' trope is. It was being made fun of twenty years ago on a sitcom.

 

In fact, off the top of my head, sitcoms are just about the only shows that actually try to get more creative with this sort of crap. Most supposed dramas just hit the same dreary beats, over and over again.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Danny Franks

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I hate to say it but this episode actually made me question her feelings for Oliver, for the first time. I hate that because I've never doubted that Felicity is in love with Oliver but it pains me that she was so into Ray, so quickly. The whole thing came out of nowhere. Her reaction on the comms is more in keeping with how I imagined she'd react to Oliver's 'rejection' of being with her but aside from that it's like she doesn't care at all. I've not really seen any longing from her tbh. And personally, if I have to sit through a boring love triangle with a third party love interest, I need to see that there is still love there with the main intended pairing and I'm only getting that from Oliver right now. It's pretty sad. I feel I should clarify that I don't ever expect to see Felicity pining all the time and 'woe is me!' but just a slip of that mask now and again would go some way.

 

We're only getting that from Oliver because he's the one who made the decision not to be with her, and it is decidedly coming back to bite him in the ass. She told him in that hospital that once they talked, it was over. She was in, and once he decided he wasn't, that was it. This is probably the first time Oliver has had someone shut him down like this romantically. In the past, he's always gotten away with being wishy-washy, with not being able to make up his mind and coming back around whenever he felt like it. Felicity let him know in no uncertain terms that he doesn't get to play with her heart like that, and she's sticking to it. I admire that.

 

Still, while she's not openly pining for him, I am getting signs that were he willing to admit he was wrong and make the decision to commit, she'd be willing to consider it again. And she does care about not hurting him; just look at the way she gently eased him into the idea that she was going out to dinner with Ray for work reasons. She was very quiet about it, let him know that it wasn't a date. She asked him if it was okay very tentatively, like she was hoping he'd say something about how he felt, but he didn't. When Dig went to her office and told her that Oliver had made the wrong decision, she didn't tell him she was better off, or that maybe it was the right decision as far as she was concerned because her feelings weren't the same. She told him that if Oliver felt he made a mistake, then he should be the one to say so; that if he wants another chance he needs to admit he wants one and ask for it.

 

She told him it wasn't going to happen exactly one time: in that hospital hallway, and even then she put the ball in his court by telling him that once they talked, it would be over. He's shut her down how many times now? In the hospital, in the foundry by telling her his mission was going to end with him dead, when he told her she could do whatever she wanted when she brought up Ray's work dinner, when he spoke to her through Cupid and told her he needed to be alone. Why would she allow herself to be emotionally vulnerable to Oliver when he's told her four times that it's only going to end in heartbreak for her? She's walling herself off in the same way Oliver did, and it's jarring to see because the Felicity we know wears her heart on her sleeve. It's also difficult to reconcile with the person we know, but then again, we've never seen her in a romantic relationship before.

 

As much as I feel like Oliver has been punished (tortured, really) by his mistakes and it's terrible storytelling and it's rough to see this guy continually beaten down, I do feel like he does need to feel the weight of this one. He's never going to learn to stop shutting down emotionally unless doing that costs him dearly, and it's costing him dearly now. What he said last season was right: he is his own worst enemy. He needs to learn that the coping mechanisms he developed that helped him survive on the island are the same ones that are going to ensure he's only surviving in Starling City. Those are the exact instincts that are keeping him from having a life. It's all part and parcel of him learning that he can be himself and the Arrow, that he can live and he can survive, that he can fight for the city but he also has to fight for himself. I would honestly be surprised if he takes this out on Felicity and acts callously towards her. I think he fully realizes that this one is on him, and he's angry with himself for pushing her away in the first place, and then waiting so long to realize he was wrong. 

[Primetimer]

Everything's higgledy-piggledy as familiar Arrow elements return, but with a twist.

Read the story

[Pyramid]

Just watched it.

DJ Smug Prick. What the hell was he about? They throw this insufferable wank at Thea, have him act like a complete nob, and then kiss her out of the blue, and she's all *giggle* "he's dreamy" What the actual fuck?

Thought Cupid was a fun villain. Tremendously subtle parallels between her story and Oliver/Felicity's. Sad to think that actress could've been playing Laurel. Who was missing but not missed this week. No need for my weekly plea for her to tell her father Sara is dead.

At least there was more Team Arrow than there has been for a while. Well more Diggle passing notes between O and F.

And I guess the entire rest of the episode was about the Actual. Love. Triangle. Which included, but was not limited to, Oliver seeing R and F kissing, and them not knowing. Yeesh, my eyes almost rolled out my head there.

Ray. Ray, Ray, Ray. What a conundrum. Is he a creepy stalker who tries to buy his way into the girls heart with dresses and diamonds, or a nice guy who's a bit socially awkward? I think the writers are going for the latter, but have actually had Felicity call him a stalker. So, I don't know ... it's weird.
And Felicity kissing him. I have no problem with that in theory, Oliver once again had just cockblocked himself, but the execution was not great for me. Two minutes ago she was pointing out his creepy tendencies and the next minute she eulogising about his amazing awesomeness. There was a massive disconnect there. It seem to me like the writers had written the beat that Felicity must kiss Ray by the end of 307, and then realised that they'd forgotten to do anything to actually earn that, and hastily scribbled on the back of a fag packet that scene for Felicity at dinner.
So what are we left with? Felicity separated from Team Arrow, Oliver sinking further in depression, the rise of Black Canary, and the yawnfest of who killed Sara. What the hell happened to this programme? I mean a lot of the parts are still great, but when everything gets stuck together it's a shambles.
Hey ho.

[quarks]

It occurred to me that at some point in 3:09 Ray is going to tell Felicity that he pulled back from their kiss because he could tell that she was really thinking about someone else.  That, or he pulled back because, as others have speculated, he does know all about Oliver and is trying to join the team after proving himself to Felicity and others. The show has definitely dropped various hints in that direction - Ray showed up knowing who Felicity is; he was amused but not surprised or angry when she was getting all of those phone calls asking her to hack into databases; as this episode showed, it's not particularly hard to triangulate the Arrow's appearances and realize that they all lead back to Verdant, a nightclub formally owned by Oliver Queen, and so on.  So yeah, he could pulled back because he's stalking Oliver, not Felicity, or, even if he's not doing that, wants to impress Oliver and is intelligent enough to realize something is going on there.  Because otherwise, it doesn't really make sense for him to be the one that pulled back.  Felicity, sure, since we know she cares about someone else even if she's understandably trying not to think about that right now.  Ray, who has already shown a massive lack of understanding boundaries, not so much.

[ostentatious]

It occurred to me that at some point in 3:09 Ray is going to tell Felicity that he pulled back from their kiss because he could tell that she was really thinking about someone else.  That, or he pulled back because, as others have speculated, he does know all about Oliver and is trying to join the team after proving himself to Felicity and others. The show has definitely dropped various hints in that direction - Ray showed up knowing who Felicity is; he was amused but not surprised or angry when she was getting all of those phone calls asking her to hack into databases; as this episode showed, it's not particularly hard to triangulate the Arrow's appearances and realize that they all lead back to Verdant, a nightclub formally owned by Oliver Queen, and so on.  So yeah, he could pulled back because he's stalking Oliver, not Felicity, or, even if he's not doing that, wants to impress Oliver and is intelligent enough to realize something is going on there.  Because otherwise, it doesn't really make sense for him to be the one that pulled back.  Felicity, sure, since we know she cares about someone else even if she's understandably trying not to think about that right now.  Ray, who has already shown a massive lack of understanding boundaries, not so much.

I think that Ray is pulling back because no matter what is really going on with him, he knows that he is not being honest with Felicity. Their "relationship" is not what she believes it is. It's one thing to not be honest with a business asset, but another entirely to not be honest with a woman you're becoming involved with romantically.

 

And yeah, it would've been helpful for my belief in the authenticity of the Raylicity relationship to have actually seen them working together and growing closer, seen her being impressed with him and developing a belief that he's a good guy here to do good...

 

...but I don't want to believe in their relationship and am glad it's utilitarian in nature. Scenes like that would signal to me they're actually *trying* it. I am glad they're not.

Edited November 20, 2014 by ostentatious

[JenMD]

  

Companies have many VPs. She's VP of Something Unmentioned like the dress is Something Unmentioned Couture.

 

That may be what they meant, or what we're meant to infer, but how Ray specifically introduced her was "The Vice President of Palmer Technologies".  If she were a VP of Something Unmentioned, then he would probably have said it so Mr. Mine Guy would have known the relevance of her expertise to his situation.  So, I'm left to think she's actually the VP of PI.  Which, imo, doesn't make sense and is just yet another OTT way for Ray to seem like such a wonderful alternative to Oliver.

 

But OTT is how they operate in regards to everything relating to Ray's story (and not just Ray, of course, but he's the focus this week).  A couture dress (and I spotted that tag, too, heh) and a 10M (!) necklace for what amounted to a dinner at a nice restaurant?  OTT.  As lovely as she looked, Felicity was way overdressed.  I was expecting something much more fancy.  Even the temporary salmon ladder was OTT.  And to those wondering, no, we didn't get a good look at Ray working the salmon ladder.  I suspect either they didn't give BR enough of a head's up to learn how to do it or they didn't set it up correctly (it looked low or off, somehow).

 

And regarding the couture dress, I'm left wondering if he had a list of female employees in Felicity's size?  Or did he buy a bunch of dresses in different sizes?  Just in case she said no?  Inquiring minds. ;-)

 

 

 Leaving giant gaping plot holes and missing emotional beats is sort of their thing.

 

It's their superpower.

Really liked Amy G as Cupid.  I've never seen her before, I don't think, but she was really good.  Cupid was wackadoodle crazy, but menacing, too.  I think she might be a little too crazy for the Suicide Squad, but I guess we'll see.

 

I eye-rolled a lot in this ep thanks to all the Ray schenanigans, but never more than when Oliver saw the kiss.  Good grief show. 

 

Overall, I'm left feeling a bit glad we have a two week break...

[tv echo]

I liked this episode, despite its flaws.  I was jotting down notes as I watched (+ is positive reaction, - is negative reaction), so this is essentially a rambling play-by-play...

 

+ Flashback to 6 months ago with Oliver, Felicity and Diggle in the van.  Both nostalgic and bittersweet to see Classic Team Arrow.
- Shirtless Ray on the salmon ladder.  Incredibly inappropriate in the office and in front of your subordinate.  SWM alert.
- Felicity squeeing over a couture dress was IC, but accepting the dress to wear on the work date was OOC.  Are the EPs actively trying to sabotage her character?
- Ray announces PT and references smart people who'll help him.  Why doesn't he introduce Felicity by name and title?  Why else is she standing conspicuously in front of the podium?
+ Oliver smashes the red arrowhead.  Jealous much?
+ Hey, Arrow show logo has been changed to have red heart arrowhead on arrow behind show name!  Cool.
+ CH is doing a nice job showing his guilt and torment over murdering the cop.
- Felicity isn't really asking your permission to take the night off to go on her work date with Ray, Oliver.  She wants you to say something.  Oliver: "Do what you want."  Bzzz!  Wrong answer.
- First impression of blonde DJ guy?  What an asshole.
- Oliver calls Roy "Arsenal" out in the field.  Great, but he's still using Diggle and Felicity's names over the coms.
+ Roy is outmatched by Carrie Cutter.  That's actually believable.
+ Diggle visits Felicity in her new office.  Oh, Felicity is only borrowing the blue dress - maybe only 25 Shades of Grey then?  Felicity: "There is no me and Ray... But if Oliver has a problem with it, then he should be the one to talk to me."  You tell 'em.
+/- I don't get it.  Oliver ended any relationship with Felicity because being with her distracted him from his Arrow job.  But now he's distracted because Felicity's out on a date with someone else.  Catch-22, Oliver.
+ Even the therapist thinks Oliver needs therapy.
- Hong Kong flashback seems pointless.
+/- Felicity looks fantastic in that dress and with her hair up like that.  But agreeing to wear the diamond necklace?  Back to 50 Shades again.  No, not creepy at all, Ray.
- Is it really that easy to find the Arrowcave pinpointed right next to Verdant?  Yeah, no one will make the connection to Oliver Queen.
+ Oliver admits he's bothered by Felicity moving on and being on a work date with Ray.  Oliver: "I just want her to be happy."  Diggle: "If that were true, you'd be with her."  Listen to Diggle, you moron!
+ Finally, we get Felicity's new title.  VP of PT.
- Second impression of blond DJ guy?  Still an asshole.
+/- Felicity sees the best in people and props up Ray at dinner.  She also manages to help Diggle via phone.  But WTF?  Felicity: "He inspires... He wants to make the world a better place", blah, blah, blah.  When did Felicity become such a smooth talker?  She's the one who blurts things out and is awkward at social conventions.  I guess she's matured in two years, but enough to become such a great PR gal?
+/- Oh Oliver, your speech to Cupid is really directed at Felicity.  "I know what it's like to love someone but can't be with them.  To can't be with anyone.  To have to be alone" (or words to that effect).
+ Cupid is now part of the Suicide Squad!
+ "You gotta tell her before it's too late."  Diggle's giving you good advice, Oliver.  Listen to him.  Otherwise, you got no one to blame but yourself if you're miserable.
- Third impression of blond DJ guy - he kisses Thea!  Ewww.  Annd... we've reverted back to typical CW teen soap drama.
- Ewww again!  Ray kisses Felicity - just when Oliver stops by.  Of course.  Ray is still creepy.  Felicity is alternate-universe Felicity.  Oliver continues to suffer in silence.  (Bet the Felicity haters will be out in full force posting online after this episode.)
+ Whoa!  Oliver crashes stuff off the table in a mixture of anger, jealousy and frustration.  Then he and Roy go off to dinner at the Diggles.
+ First look at the Atom exosuit schematics.  Forget 50 Shades of Grey.  It's 50 Shades of Iron Man.  Yep, spin-off.
+ Boomerang Guy appears!
+ + That hour flew by fast, plus no Laurel.  So WIN-WIN all around.

Edited November 20, 2014 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

I'm moving this to the Relationships thread, because I think it might fit better over there.

Edited November 20, 2014 by apinknightmare

[SleepDeprived]

I wonder if the writers are aware how rather duplicitous Ray Palmer is actually coming across. At least to me. I feel like there's always a hidden agenda with anything he asks of Felicity. Maybe, to her, his intentions seem transparent--he wants her to work for him because she really is one of the best in her field, he really loves technology, he wants to make the world a better place through science, he just really wants her to be his business date. But, to me, everything he's asked of her has resulted in something that furthers whatever his agenda is. And she doesn't know it.

 

I don't know if I'm being weirdly suspicious. I mean, on one hand, and with the reveal of the A.T.O.M. exosuit, I'm pretty sure he'll become another vigilante/hero of Starling City. I think the writers want me to like him because he's one of the good guys and, sometimes, I can see his charm. On the other hand, his methods are just so problematic. And it doesn't help that he has crazy eyes and comes off creepy/stalkery.

 

Like, I'm not sure how intentional it was that Palmer just happened to run into Felicity at Tech Village to ask his really calculated question about which tech to use in order to hack into QC's servers. The result of which got him the data he needed to win the QC board and become CEO in order to get at the Applied Sciences' projects hard drives.

 

I'm not sure if it was really scientific curiosity that made him so determined to access those hard drives, that only Felicity was able to make work, and find the O.M.A.C. project dossiers. Or if he already had an idea what the hard drives would contain and that, perhaps, those hard drives held the key to some elements of his A.T.O.M. exosuit.

 

I'm not sure if he really intended for Felicity to be his non-boring wingwoman for the business dinner or if he, maybe, had an inkling that she might be able to convince Mr. Gardner about mining the Nevada land. He did buy her the dress already and wanted her, specifically, there. He cited the reason that he wanted to mine the land was for the Cogeneration project, which he is working with Felicity on (and, knowing about the free energy he wants to give to the people is probably part of the reason why Felicity gave that impassioned speech of how saintly Palmer is). But then we find out, at the end of the episode, that really his interest in the land is because of the white dwarf star that, presumably, will power his A.T.O.M. exosuit. He even called his people at, likely, an ungodly hour, to talk/draft contracts and get everything in place to mine the dwarf star.

 

Now, all of these might be just an incredibly fortunate happenstance for Palmer. I mean, he had no assurances that Felicity would take him seriously at Tech Village or that she would accept his job offer and fix the hard drives or that she would actually accept the business dinner date and be a smooth talking businesswoman. Maybe he really is being transparent to Felicity and he is just really lucky that she keeps, unknowingly, providing him with the means to everything he needs for whatever he intends to do. However, the duplicitousness, for me, is that he keeps utilizing Felicity as a resource for his agenda but she knows nothing of it and, instead, thinks he's being honest with her about his intentions. I wonder if it's another parallel or differentiation with the Arrow/the Atom's road to vigilantism that the writers are trying to make. Oliver did the same thing in S1 when he kept going to Felicity for favors. The difference is she knew Oliver was lying about his intentions but helped him, anyway.

 

I realize this sounds so conspiracy theory-like about what the heck Palmer is up to. In my defense, I grew up on The X-Files and, sometimes, I can't help but try to see connections, especially when there's seemingly shady behavior. But, honestly, it's been bothering me that I just don't know what to make do about Palmer. He's clearly not there just to be the ship-block, and serve as the third leg to the triangle, for the OTP of the show. He definitely has plans of his own. Also, I really want to believe that the writers aren't seriously portraying his creepy stalkery connotations toward Felicity as normal behavior... Or, maybe, this is a simple case of me just trying to make Palmer a more interesting/complex character in my head than him SWM-ing Oliver/being Oliver 2.0--now sans manpain... Or, if Krycek's character, who wanted Moira to run for Mayor, is in any way connected to Palmer, it's aliens.

[apinknightmare]

^ I think all of these things are purposeful and not coincidence, and it's certainly interesting to see all these favors and their results in one post after getting bits and pieces of it over the past 7 eps. I think he's manipulating Felicity to do these things for him (not towards an evil end) and it's starting to get away from him, because he does like her and he probably doesn't want to hurt her and like @ostentatious wrote, that's probably why he pulled away from her when they kissed.

 

I'm interested to see where they go with Palmer as far as his plans for the suit and what he's doing in Starling City. Could not be less interested in watching him with Felicity with the way things are playing out at the moment.

[KirkB]

I don't think Ray expected Felicity to speak up for him like she did, let alone so passionately, or that it would sway the guy whose mine he wanted. How could he have predicted that? Nothing in their previous interactions would indicate she was even that aware of who he was or what he was doing (though that may be more the fault of the EP's for not showing US). I got the feeling it was a combination of him knowing it was going to be a real boring meeting and his being attracted to her, and so he thought at least he could stare at her in that dress for a couple of hours.

 

While we're on the subject, I think we're supposed to feel for Oliver when he sees Felicity and Ray kissing and goes back to the lair but all I saw was a grown man throwing a hissy fit because of a problem he caused. He insists on being alone. He chose to push Felicity away. He can be as upset as he wants but if he expected her to sit quietly in the lair and pine away until he decides he's ready he's a narcissistic douche. Whether you like Ray or not I'd rather see Felicity happy with someone who seems to genuinely appreciate spending time with her.

Edited November 20, 2014 by KirkB

[Shanna]

I have to agree with ostentatious that that dress was not really couture, but I am going with what the show is pretending. Maybe they can't afford better.

I also like the idea of felicity as an acquisition of talent, that is how rays been playing it all along really. He pursued felicity because of her skills, not for romantic reasons. I like that.

And it's completely in character for ray to change the name, that seems to be his go to thing (Star city anyone?)

Edited November 20, 2014 by Shanna

[apinknightmare]

While we're on the subject, I think we're supposed to feel for Oliver when he sees Felicity and Ray kissing and goes back to the lair. but all I saw was a grown man throwing a hissy fit because of a problem he caused. He insists on being alone. He chose to push Felicity away. He can be as upset as he wants but if he expected her to sit quietly in the lair and pine away until he decides he's ready he's a narcissistic douche. Whether you like Ray or not I'd rather see Felicity happy with someone who seems to genuinely appreciate spending time with her.

 

I don't think he had a fit at all. I think it was a moment of anger at himself (IMO what he did in the foundry was because he knew without a doubt that he had screwed up). He didn't take it out on Felicity, he didn't yell, he just had his moment of abject frustration like we sometimes do and then did something healthy by going and spending time with his friends instead of wallowing in his manpain. It's growth in my book.

Edited November 20, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Danny Franks]

I don't think Ray expected Felicity to speak up for him like she did, let alone so passionately, or that it would sway the guy whose mine he wanted. How could he have predicted that? Nothing in their previous interactions would indicate she was even that aware of who he was or what he was doing (though that may be more the fault of the EP's for not showing US). I got the feeling it was a combination of him knowing it was going to be a real boring meeting and his being attracted to her, and so he thought at least he could stare at her in that dress for a couple of hours.

 

While we're on the subject, I think we're supposed to feel for Oliver when he sees Felicity and Ray kissing and goes back to the lair. but all I saw was a grown man throwing a hissy fit because of a problem he caused. He insists on being alone. He chose to push Felicity away. He can be as upset as he wants but if he expected her to sit quietly in the lair and pine away until he decides he's ready he's a narcissistic douche. Whether you like Ray or not I'd rather see Felicity happy with someone who seems to genuinely appreciate spending time with her.

 

This is why I get so irritated with 'will they, won't they' tropes. It nearly always ends up with one or both characters acting in ways that leave me with absolutely no sympathy for them. I saw the clip of Oliver chucking stuff around the Arrow Cave a couple of weeks ago, and was sure that even these numpties wouldn't write him as being that much of a thwarted child. No such luck, it seems.

 

But like I've said before, these storylines rely on no one talking or doing anything, so why should I feel sorry for either of them? Don't ask? Don't get. If you're happy to move on to the next best thing, then that's up to you.

[apinknightmare]

Also, did anyone notice the time jump in this ep? During Ray's speech on the illustrious Channel 52 news, he said that "a few months ago" he made a promise to revitalize Starling City. So...did we lose a month and a half-ish somewhere here?

[KenyaJ]

I also did not think she went to dinner with him because of the dress. She is used to working evening business events and would've gone anyway. The dress, which she inexplicably loved but whatever, just expedited the agreement. If there had been no dress the conversation would've simply included "What's the attire?" and "Semi-formal, expense it."

 

IIRC, he asked her to come to dinner and she told him there were 100 other people he could ask and he should go ask one of them. That suggested some reluctance to go on her part. But then he waved his magical "couture" dress in her face, and that's what made her change her mind.

 

The thing is, it's entirely believable to me that Felicity would've gone to the dinner as a favor to Ray without needing to be bribed. He's a good boss, it was an important deal, and her presence would prevent him from being bored and help him do the business that needed to be done. On it's own, that's sufficient justification for her to agree to go, IMO. She could have justified it by saying it was the least she could do to thank him for being so cool about letting her take time off whenever she wanted to.

 

Obviously, we know Felicity is a bit of a clotheshorse, so I can see her being excited about wearing that dress.  That didn't feel OOC. But the writers made the boneheaded decision to have her agree to go to dinner only because of the dress, and that's what felt shallow, vapid, and very un-Felicity to me. There were so many legitimate reasons she might go to the dinner that using a clothes bribe felt cheap. On top of all that, having Ray buy the dress at all was a miscalculation. I suppose the writers thought is was cute or romantic, but it added a layer of gender stereotyping that obviously left a lot of people feeling uncomfortable. The fact that two women wrote it blows my mind.

[ostentatious]

 

IIRC, he asked her to come to dinner and she told him there were 100 other people he could ask and he should go ask one of them. That suggested some reluctance to go on her part. But then he waved his magical "couture" dress in her face, and that's what made her change her mind.

 

The thing is, it's entirely believable to me that Felicity would've gone to the dinner as a favor to Ray without needing to be bribed. He's a good boss, it was an important deal, and her presence would prevent him from being bored and help him do the business that needed to be done. On it's own, that's sufficient justification for her to agree to go, IMO. She could have justified it by saying it was the least she could do to thank him for being so cool about letting her take time off whenever she wanted to.

 

Obviously, we know Felicity is a bit of a clotheshorse, so I can see her being excited about wearing that dress.  That didn't feel OOC. But the writers made the boneheaded decision to have her agree to go to dinner only because of the dress, and that's what felt shallow, vapid, and very un-Felicity to me. There were so many legitimate reasons she might go to the dinner that using a clothes bribe felt cheap. On top of all that, having Ray buy the dress at all was a miscalculation. I suppose the writers thought is was cute or romantic, but it added a layer of gender stereotyping that obviously left a lot of people feeling uncomfortable. The fact that two women wrote it blows my mind.

I disagree that it made her change her mind, because I didn't think her mind was made up. I don't think she was about to say no. Why would she? Like, he could've just said "Aww come on" when she asked, why me? and the same outcome would've been reached. There was, IMO, no real disagreement on her part.

 

Let's say the dress was what a couture dress would actually be: a one of a kind, $50,000 object that Felicity could never gain access to herself. Now let's say we replace it with some piece of technology that fits that description, and the offer was for an evening's access to that piece of tech in exchange for her accompaniment. Would that have been acceptable?

 

If not okay, but if so, I really don't think that it's OOC or anti-feminist to have Felicity be equally interested in clothes as tech, because I don't think that clothes are inherently inferior to tech. I believe Felicity loves beautiful clothes, because she wears a lot of beautiful clothes. It makes sense that she is interested in fashion.

[Ariah]

And it's completely in character for ray to change the name, that seems to be his go to thing (Star city anyone?)

Maybe he'll also rename Felicity, once she's his.

 

Joy Megan Smoak-Palmer.

[KenyaJ]

Let's say the dress was what a couture dress would actually be: a one of a kind, $50,000 object that Felicity could never gain access to herself. Now let's say we replace it with some piece of technology that fits that description, and the offer was for an evening's access to that piece of tech in exchange for her accompaniment. Would that have been acceptable?

 

Either way, she's allowing herself to be bribed to come to dinner, which still seems stupid to me, since, as a VP of the company, a bribe should have been unnecessary to secure her presence at the dinner. Having said that, yes, having Felicity be swayed by a piece of tech would have been a lot less jarring to me. We saw her drool over the hardware at A.R.G.U.S. headquarters. We saw her do the same thing with Ray at Tech Village. I don't have any problem believing a piece of tech would get Felicity to change her mind (and we'll have to disagree about her not needing to be swayed). But using the dress was very "Girls will do anything for pretty things!" and it completely turned me off. Other people weren't as bothered, and that's fine, but I hated it.

Edited November 20, 2014 by KenyaJ

[apinknightmare]

Either way, she's allowing herself to be bribed to come to dinner, which still seems stupid to me, since, as a VP of the company, a bribe should have been unnecessary to secure her presence at the dinner.

 

I agree. I don't think it really matters exactly what it took for her to agree to go to the dinner though, whether it was tech or a dress, it was still a motivating factor. Granted, the tech would've come off as more of a direct bribe, since she wouldn't have had to go to a restaurant to use it. It does make more sense for her to think, 'oooh, pretty dress I wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity to wear,' so oddly I think the dress being the motivating factor makes her decision seem less...maybe shallow isn't the right word, but less like she's able to actually be bribed, I guess.

 

But as VP, he has every reason to invite her to a business dinner, so offering the dress and necklace were intended to be romantic beats, but after he pulled away from the kiss he said that he had intended the evening to be platonic. If he'd intended that, then why did he ply her with fashion and jewelry? Kind of makes it seem like he purposely led her on, but I don't think that's what we're supposed to get from it. Messy.

Edited November 20, 2014 by apinknightmare

[CarBe]

 

IIRC, he asked her to come to dinner and she told him there were 100 other people he could ask and he should go ask one of them. That suggested some reluctance to go on her part. But then he waved his magical "couture" dress in her face, and that's what made her change her mind.

 

The reason she turned him down and said there must be a dozen other employees that could be your "non-boring wing woman" (Ray interrupts with the 100 employee quip which she rolls her eyes and gets even more annoyed at) was that she was majorly insulted that was the reason he gave for asking her out in the first place. If you have a DVR rewind and watch that scene. She is initially flattered he asks her to dinner to help woo the mine owner but when she asks why he needs her there and he says it's to prevent him from becoming bored she is insulted and turns him down.  She only allows herself to be persuaded because his reveal of the dress showed her he had her mind in all along and it's "couture" and she's a clotheshorse.

[pivot]

I was tossing around the idea Ray's been on to Team Arrow from the start and recruited Felicity to work for him to find out if the Arrow is more than a spree killing vigilante who likes to blow up factories. Then after meeting and getting to know Felicity Ray decided she wouldn't work with somebody evil, but still thinks becoming the Atom is a good idea even if he doesn't plan to use the suit to take down the Arrow anymore. It kind of fits with his regretting kissing Felicity if he's been investigating her and after the kiss feels he's gotten too close.

 

Aw, man, I love Quentin!

I agree that Ray's regret in kissing Felicity means something. I hope it is related to the ATOM storyline and not part of the love triangle. I have to say that if it is revealed that Ray has been using Felicity to get to Arrow, Oliver is going to flip his lid.

[calliope1975]

I wonder if the writers are aware how rather duplicitous Ray Palmer is actually coming across. At least to me. I feel like there's always a hidden agenda with anything he asks of Felicity. Maybe, to her, his intentions seem transparent--he wants her to work for him because she really is one of the best in her field, he really loves technology, he wants to make the world a better place through science, he just really wants her to be his business date. But, to me, everything he's asked of her has resulted in something that furthers whatever his agenda is. And she doesn't know it.

 

I would hope the writers know how Ray is coming across, but with these folks, I have no idea. They call him a stalker but position him as leading man and basically Oliver's replacement. The salmon ladder was so over-the-top, I just rolled my eyes.

 

And poor BR and his crazy eyes. He's like Peter Sarsgaard for me. No matter what he says, his tone of voice sounds like he's going to apologize as he's burying you in the backyard. BR can be at his most charming, but his stare makes me yell at Felicity to run far, far away before he whacks her over the head. I have no problem believing he'd lock her away and make her work on his tech, and I don't really think that's what anyone is going for.

Edited November 20, 2014 by calliope1975

[GirlWednesday]

So I kinda liked that episode.

Rebranding of a company requires board approval and shareholder voting or whatever so there is no way that Oliver did not know with his 45% ownership. He had to have voted yes on it So I'm ok with Felicity not making a big deal because they are all adults.

Felicity is a professional in everything she takes on even when her new eccentric boss on her door step waving napkins with formulas written on it. I skipped the Nyssa and Ted grant episode so my knowledge is limited viewing knowledge. But the speech of trusting Ray to do right by the mineral owner guy did not seem out of character. Because this is felcity. Even though Ray was stalking her (or headhunting her from the first moment), she must have done her homework on him before she said yes so even though it's been one month, she's bought into his mission as much as she bought into the original hood mission in a very short amount of time. So her speech about Ray was not OOC for me. I'm glad that even Ray was surprised by it. She clearly was superimposing how she saw Oliver onto how she sees Ray. I'm okay with it because I'm interested in where Ray is going with all this.

This episode was about everyone struggling. Felicity trying to find happiness and light after a shitty month of Sara dying, oliver dumping her ass after one aborted date and ignoring her, Diggle busy with his own family, Roy figuring shit out, finding out her BF did not commit suicide and someone she immortalized as a life lesson to change everything about herself turned out to be completely false. At this moment, the only sure thing that she can trust is Ray and the good work she knows she can do and she has fun doing it without angst.

I wish the stories were paced better with more character beats but I guess it is what it is.

I liked that Diggle was the sage advisor, worried about oliver hurting himself because his head wasn't in it or maybe his heart is in this case.

I liked that oliver and Roy are developing a relationship ONSCREEN. They can fire arrows in sync but barely speak to each other .. So I liked their beats.

Oliver and Felicity - I wish we had seen the five months of cute meet and cute flirt with Roy and Diggle smirking at them. But I like that Oliver is suffering for making a choice of not being with Felicity. A choice he made for her without regard of what she wants. She has always asserted that it's her life and choice but he keeps taking that choice away when it mattered the most. Oliver doesn't deserve Felicity yet. Because he doesn't really see her. I know this is unfair but Oliver kinda defaults HIS PARTNER as IT help. He needs to realize that she is f'ing brilliant and that's the reason she was being pursued by Ray. Ray obviously needs her help and is asking her to build codes for components of things. Don't think Felicity is seeing the bigger picture yet. He is clearly compartmentalizing the stuff he is involving her with. Even her impression with him. When Ray is with Felicity, he is neurotic and spastic, goofy, excited about tech and formulas and things. It's like he is acting like someone she can relate to. When he is alone, he is confident, solemn and burdened. Took me until this episode but I'm interested, dammit show. You got me.

[tv echo]

A tech toy bribe would've been less offensive than an expensive dress (and diamond necklace) bribe for the following reasons:

 

First, Felicity grew up in Vegas with a beautiful mom and probably saw a lot of rich guys trying to buy her mom's "affections" with expensive gifts like jewelry and clothes.  So even though it's different in that Ray is only lending her the blue dress and necklace, she's too smart not to see the significance of allowing Ray to dress her like a doll - or a paid escort.

 

Second, by buying her the work dinner outfit, Ray is essentially saying that he doesn't trust her to dress herself appropriately.  The real Felicity would've told him "No thank you, you can wear the dress and necklace yourself."

 

But the EPs probably thought it would just be a 'cute' moment.

Edited November 20, 2014 by tv echo

[GirlWednesday]

Yeah the Writers probably thought it would be a easy character beat. I didn't really mind it as much as some others here.

Whether this was OOC for Felicity, mileage may vary. I always see Felicity as someone who is "leaf in the wind" until she needs to be a rock. I thought it was funny that she was all bothered by the ladder and Ray realizing that she is attracted to a similar type of person. When she finds out about the atom, that will definitely confirm that hero is her type. Right now, hot billionaires wanting to do good.

The dress thing could be construed as weird but I guess if these guys have been working together at random hours, Ray knew how to motivate Felicity to come to dinner. That just makes Ray smarter and Felicity quite transparent. I didn't see 50 shades or whatever but ymmv on that. But then I'm trying to go all good and light goggles when I watch this show since I want to want to like it again. Lol if that makes sense.

[CarBe]

Oliver and Felicity - I wish we had seen the five months of cute meet and cute flirt with Roy and Diggle smirking at them. But I like that Oliver is suffering for making a choice of not being with Felicity. A choice he made for her without regard of what she wants. She has always asserted that it's her life and choice but he keeps taking that choice away when it mattered the most. Oliver doesn't deserve Felicity yet. Because he doesn't really see her. I know this is unfair but Oliver kinda defaults HIS PARTNER as IT help. He needs to realize that she is f'ing brilliant and that's the reason she was being pursued by Ray. Ray obviously needs her help and is asking her to build codes for components of things. Don't think Felicity is seeing the bigger picture yet. He is clearly compartmentalizing the stuff he is involving her with. Even her impression with him. When Ray is with Felicity, he is neurotic and spastic, goofy, excited about tech and formulas and things. It's like he is acting like someone she can relate to. When he is alone, he is confident, solemn and burdened. Took me until this episode but I'm interested, dammit show. You got me.

Such good points!!!

 

Yes!! Oliver seems to see Felicity primarily as the IT help. That really bothers me. He has never treated any of his other love interests like that.

 

Great insight on how Ray is with Felicity and when alone. I never really thought about that. Ugh, I don't want to not like him and be suspicious of him but it does make the show a lot more fun to watch.

 

As for Felicity being interested and wooed by a pretty dress/jewelry I like that the writers aren't making Felicity a one-dimensional tech geek like the scientists portrayed on the Big Bang Theory. Female tech types like dresses and other girl stuff. Kudos for the writers for making her both technically awesome AND a girly girl.

Edited November 20, 2014 by CarBe

[apinknightmare]

A tech toy bribe would've been less offensive than an expensive dress (and diamond necklace) bribe for the following reasons:

 

First, Felicity grew up in Vegas with a beautiful mom and probably saw a lot of rich guys trying to buy her mom's "affections" with expensive gifts like jewelry and clothes.  So even though it's different in that Ray is only lending her the blue dress and necklace, she's too smart not to see the significance of allowing Ray to dress her like a doll - or a paid escort.

 

Second, by buying her the work dinner outfit, Ray is essentially saying that he doesn't trust her to dress herself appropriately.  The real Felicity would've told him "No thank you, you can wear the dress and necklace yourself."

 

But the EPs probably thought it would just be a 'cute' moment.

 

I disagree. If there was going to be a motivating factor for Felicity to accept the dinner invite, the dress is much less offensive than tech. If Ray had offered her tech, he'd look like even more of a creep since he'd be dangling something in front of her in exchange for going to dinner that she could literally use anywhere, whereas offering her a dress to wear to said dinner is more like an incentive rather than a bribe. The tech? That'd be a straight-up, undeniable bribe and wouldn't make either one of them look all that great IMO.

 

Ray's shown no indication that he disapproves of her wardrobe and wants to change it. I think a dress is just a dress here - he offered it because he knew she'd like it and might be swayed to attend if she got to wear it.

Edited November 20, 2014 by apinknightmare

[NumberCruncher]

I don't think he had a fit at all. I think it was a moment of anger at himself (IMO what he did in the foundry was because he knew without a doubt that he had screwed up). He didn't take it out on Felicity, he didn't yell, he just had his moment of abject frustration like we sometimes do and then did something healthy by going and spending time with his friends instead of wallowing in his manpain. It's growth in my book.

Agree with this. He did want Felicity to be happy. That's why he quietly left when he saw Ray kissing her. His acting out wasn't anger over her actions, but his own which made perfect sense to me. He realized his mistake too late and that set him off. I also liked that he didn't let it fester and immediately decided to do something productive that would make himself and Roy feel better about their situations.

I think another important point is that Oliver decided NOT to be alone in response to pain. Since "I must always be alone" has been his mantra this season, that in and of itself is a huge learning moment in his quest to become a real boy.

Edited November 20, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[ChelseaNH]

Tremendously subtle parallels between her story and Oliver/Felicity's.

 

I noticed the parallel of Oliver and Felicity both having creepy stalkers; I'm not entirely convinced the show did.

[GirlWednesday]

 

Great insight on how Ray is with Felicity and when alone. I never really thought about that. Ugh, I don't want to not like him and be suspicious of him but it does make the show a lot more fun to watch.

 

Yeah now I'm kinda hoping for a Bruce Wayne parents type of trope. Ray Palmer/Felicity trying to save the city and LOA wanting to purge the city by letting it ruin so they target Ray and by association Felicity. Maybe that's why Oliver will come back ... Haha if only!

[SmallScreenDiva]

Agree with this. He did want Felicity to be happy. That's why he quietly left when he saw Ray kissing her. His acting out wasn't anger over her actions, but his own which made perfect sense to me. He realized his mistake too late and that set him off. I also liked that he didn't let it fester and immediately decided to do something productive that would make himself and Roy feel better about their situations.

I think another important point is that Oliver decided NOT to be alone in response to pain. Since "I must always be alone" has been his mantra this season, that in and of itself is a huge learning moment in his quest to become a real boy.

 

I agree. I really like the way Stephen played those scenes. What I saw on Oliver's face when he saw Felicity and Ray kissing was pain, sadness, devastation, I never saw anger. That manifested when he was back in the lair, along with frustration, and both were directed at himself.

[Artsda]

 

Second, by buying her the work dinner outfit, Ray is essentially saying that he doesn't trust her to dress herself appropriately.  The real Felicity would've told him "No thank you, you can wear the dress and necklace yourself."

I don't think he was saying that at all. Felicity can clearly dress herself and nicely, and appropriate for work and the event. I doubt he thought she'd show up in sweat pants to a formal dinner. 

 

Real Felicity always wears cute dresses and sometimes even over dresses (double date on Flash). I don't see anything unreal about her appreciating a dress. They don't show her as hating fashion/geeky/glasses and fully clothed from head to toe type smart girl (Ie, Amy on Big Bang). Felicity is more Bernadette, smart but also loves to be a girl. Which is why wearing and appreciating the dress, it actually real Felicity.