S01.E08: The Mask

[caracas1914]

I'm okay with it.  No little boy should allow someone to talk shit about his dead mother.  If thats not a cause you can fight for I don't know what is.  I normally don't condone violence for words, but that was his mother, and you're going to constantly be a punching bag in life if you let that one slide.

 

This so much.  The boy was mocking Bruce's dead mother for goodness sake, and reveling in it.   If that isn't bullying to an alarming degree I don't know what is. 

 

It's funny, but I can only stand Fish Mooney when she's in scenes with Oswald. I agree with who ever said upthread that  Jada's over the top acting is compensated by Oswald's playing.

 

The female mole in Falcone household, they need to amp up her role because as of now she is a weird nonentity.  At least let her be a sexy maid, otherwise it's even creepier she just does literally housework. 

 

Not gonna lie, the  corporate thunderdome villain was genuinely scary and creepy to me.   A little too much but it worked.

Edited November 11, 2014 by caracas1914

[EricJ]

Is it possible that there's a good reason behind the Wayne's "no therapists" rule? Like maybe any therapist working in Gotham was trained at Arkham, or trained by someone who worked there?

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Someone needs to explain what being a "ride or die" significant other is to Barbara.

Don't talk that "you and me against the world" shit, then whine and pout.

Had that been me and Jim came home and told me about Office Fight Club, Chile!

He would've gotten sexed right out of his O.C wife beater that night.

[maczero]

 

Every scene with Bruce and Alfred was good, as usual.  Was Alfred's method of combatting schoolboy bullies the right one?  Debatable, but insightful in rearing the child who will become Batman.

In our overly PC society, probably not.  However, I did get a kick out of Alfred giving a weapon to a child, encouraging said child to get some payback, and then taunting the victim afterwards! 

 

[blackwing]

So the boss picks five candidates and makes them physically fight for a job.  Some of them end up dead.  100 employees are watching on their computers in between trades or whatever it is else they are doing.  I find it hard to believe that not one of them would go to the police when it was reported that a few dead bodies in business attire show up.

 

Liked the bits with Gordon and Harvey.  Don't care at all for Catgirl and rolled my eyes when she showed up.  Don't care much for the little fighter Bruce either.

[RealityGal]

So the boss picks five candidates and makes them physically fight for a job.  Some of them end up dead.  100 employees are watching on their computers in between trades or whatever it is else they are doing.  I find it hard to believe that not one of them would go to the police when it was reported that a few dead bodies in business attire show up.

 

4 of the 5 end up dead.  I'm assuming everyone watching at their computers also had to kill 4 people so they may not be so quick to go to the police.

[blackwing]

True.  But there were like 100 employees.  Where have the bodies of the previous 400 victims gone?  Surely this wasn't the first time a deceased applicant was discovered, was it?

[Ubiquitous]

Didn't the boss say that was the first time they had a fatality?

 

I think this shows that Falcone has a plan of his own, and isn't just waiting for the right moment to tell Fish he knew her plan all along. I never doubted that Falcone was two steps ahead of everyone- including, perhaps, Oswald- it just seems that now Falcone is putting a plan of his in motion.

I wonder if her spilling half that sleeping drug on the floor means she got caught and forced to pass a fake note to Fish.

[ratgirlagogo]

Just wanted to point out even though it doesn't matter that the Rat Chateau was too small to contain an adult rat.  

[Kromm]

The scene between Oswald and his mom was creepily enjoyable.  Madeline Kane is always great.

Madeline Kane IS always great... but that's Carol Kane!

[Danielg342]

Madeline Kane IS always great... but that's Carol Kane!

...and it's Madeline Kahn. RIP.

I wonder if her spilling half that sleeping drug on the floor means she got caught and forced to pass a fake note to Fish.

Perhaps...but I do get the feeling if she wrote a fake note, she'd have to ensure that Falcone has her back, because I'm sure Fish would kill Lizzie right there once she realized she was played.

Of course, Fish does seem a little stupid, so maybe this is Lizzie's opportunity to gain the upper hand on Fish? I might like that twist- at least it means one female character has some real gumption on this show.

[Kromm]

...and it's Madeline Kahn. RIP.

So it is! (er.... was)

 

Here's the difference between the two.  Carol had the beret in The Muppet Movie.  Madeline had the fancy sequined dress! 

 

 

Yes, that's them, seconds apart in the same scene! Let's rewind a few seconds to see them in the same shot...

 

Edited November 11, 2014 by Kromm

[blackwing]

Madeline Kahn!  "Flames.  Flames... on the side of my face... breathing.. breath... heaving breaths."  One of the best lines from "Clue the Movie". 

 

Madeline Kahn and Carol Kane were/are both Jewish women, but I don't really see that much of a resemblance.  Madeline Kahn was in her mid to late 30s in The Muppet Movie.  Not really sure what Carol Kane is most noted for post-"Taxi".  She did a stint on Broadway in "Wicked" but I think I most remember her for playing one of the ghosts in the Bill Murray movie "Scrooged" from the late 80s.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Not really sure what Carol Kane is most noted for post-"Taxi".  

Post-"Taxi" I'm not sure but to me her most indelible role is in Hester Street.  Madeline Kahn of course I always think of for Blazing Saddles and Young Frankenstein, although obviously she did much more than that.

Edited November 11, 2014 by ratgirlagogo

[Oscirus]

wonder if her spilling half that sleeping drug on the floor means she got caught and forced to pass a fake note to Fish.

 

I doubt it since that would render two major scenes ( Penguin's finding out about Fish's mole, Fish's (obviously going to fail) promise to protect her).

 

Writers, y'all do realize that you don't have to resolve every Barbara storyline by the end of the episode right? Everybody else's story is being developed/ slowly moved along and they're just speeding through her stuff. I'm just going to assume that she has a really awesome story that the writer's just have to get to asap. Because if this is some more stupidity about extending that friggin love triangle, my head's going to explode.

 

I definitely enjoyed the role reversal between Jim and Bullock this week. The case of the week? Not so much. It'll  be interesting to see the relationship that develops between Jim and the captain as he seems too be inspiring her.

 

The Riddler was interesting and you can even see the things that will probably lead to his turn to the dark side. Though I think he should be a bit smarter and a bit more obnoxious about his smarts .  As long as they continue to develop his character, he should be fine.

 

The Penguin-Fish storyline is fine but their war seems to be ridiculously one-sided. If Fish doesn't get a win soon, I'll probably get disinterested in the whole affair.

 

The Bruce storyline was just sloppy. I mean yea,  you got your revenge on the kid but what's to stop him from telling somebody or just suing the kid or worse yet just whipping his ass  when Bruce comes to school by himself the next day?

 

The Cat storyline is starting to get old.

 

This show was a huge step back from last week.

[Actionmage]

Not really sure what Carol Kane is most noted for post-"Taxi".

 

Probably The Princess Bride, where she was Valerie to Billy Crystal's Miracle Max.

[Danielg342]

So it is! (er.... was)

Here's the difference between the two. Carol had the beret in The Muppet Movie. Madeline had the fancy sequined dress!

Gosh, Madeline was an absolute knockout in that dress. I need to rewatch The Muppet Movie...I saw it as a kid so I don't recall much from it. I do fondly recall Kahn from Blazing Saddles and, more recently, Cosby.

I'm also thinking Madeline Kahn would have been wonderful in this series, maybe as Fish. She's got the right sense of timing to bring humanity to what's very much a campy role.

[shelley1234]

Probably The Princess Bride, where she was Valerie to Billy Crystal's Miracle Max.

 

Yep.  For sure.  Kane and Crystal were absolute comic geniuses in what was a teeny tiny part.  I've always been a huge fan of Carol Kane and was happy to see that her character of Cobblepot's mother wasn't just a one and done.  

 

The first thing I ever remember seeing Kane in was the PBS broadcast of the play Into the Woods.  She was just mesmerizing.  She was also one of the ghosts in Scrooged with Bill Murray.  (and Corey Haim's mom in License to Drive).   And yes, I am old.  *hat tip*

[Kromm]

I think the big thing is that even if Madeline Kahn lived to be older (she died at 57 apparently), if she was Mama Cobblepot, she'd still likely be a sexy interpretation (maybe even more overt with the Oedipal stuff than the admittedly creepy stuff we're getting, which is more like "what if Grandma from The Addams Family gave Gomez handjobs in his bath").

Edited November 12, 2014 by Kromm

[MisterGlass]

Madeline Kahn could have been Oswald's crazy aunt.  Just picture her with her Bride of the Monster hair; what a match for Carol Kane's sister.

 

 

Let the woman in authority show some authority, show.

 

I also thought this was the best use of Essen so far.

 

I agree with both of these quotes, actually.  I do think this was the first hint we've had of Essen as a real person, and from here on out I would like her to take the lead.  She can protect Gordon from some of the scrutiny he is going to receive from higher up the chain of command if he continues to make waves.  Gordon's approach to cleaning up the city from the bottom up is really a daunting challenge, and the tougher foes will be the ones higher up.

 

 

This show is doing a good job of showing a Gordon who eventually becomes so disillusioned by the system that he welcomes the idea of a vigilante superhero fighting criminals outside the law.

 

That's a good point.  Gordon is so law abiding right now that he will have to become pretty downtrodden to accept a vigilante.  Though if the future Batman has a strict moral - if not legal - code, it might work.

[Trini]

Is it possible that there's a good reason behind the Wayne's "no therapists" rule? Like maybe any therapist working in Gotham was trained at Arkham, or trained by someone who worked there?

Who knows?? They had one silly line of dialogue about it, and besides that, we know next to nothing about the Waynes.

 

 

I'm okay with it.  No little boy should allow someone to talk shit about his dead mother.  If thats not a cause you can fight for I don't know what is.  I normally don't condone violence for words, but that was his mother, and you're going to constantly be a punching bag in life if you let that one slide.

This so much.  The boy was mocking Bruce's dead mother for goodness sake, and reveling in it.   If that isn't bullying to an alarming degree I don't know what is.

Yeah, that kid was a bully. And now a Bruce is also a bully, thanks to his thuggish behavior.

 

I'm hoping with the return of Cat-tween we get some progress on the Waynes murder case. The producers have said it would be solved in the first season, right?

[Camera One]

This episode was okay.  The case of the week was a little dull but it wasn't horrible.  

 

As others have said, I did like that they addressed the fallout of the other police officers abandoning Gordon last week, though I wanted to see that happening rather than being told.  Harvey's speech was great.

 

I was happy that Barbara was impacted by last week... but that was horrible follow-through.  I was hoping she would become empowered or something, not miffed that Gordon was busy all the time.  Though hanging up on her was a tad cold.

 

The Fish/Penguin stuff was alright.  She didn't miss her right-hand man at all?  I find it hard to believe that Falcone's men wouldn't have noticed Falcone and that girl speaking on two different occasions, even if one was in the confession booth.  

 

I thought Enigma was pretty funny this week, unlike whatever he got a few weeks ago.

 

Who were all those people watching the fights and saying nothing.  I don't see how that could be remotely related to the Wayne murder.  Are they saying corruption has increased?  It seemed pretty entrenched already.

 

The Bruce stuff... not sure what to think about that leading to him asking Alfred to teach him how to fight.

 

They need to tie Catwoman into the storyline a bit better.  She seems superfluous at this point.  I mean, she didn't even really see the Wayne killer properly.

[RealityGal]

Who knows?? They had one silly line of dialogue about it, and besides that, we know next to nothing about the Waynes.

 

Yeah, that kid was a bully. And now a Bruce is also a bully, thanks to his thuggish behavior.

 

I'm hoping with the return of Cat-tween we get some progress on the Waynes murder case. The producers have said it would be solved in the first season, right?

 

It's hard for me to see punching a kid who was talking shit about your dead mother as bullying.  

 

Your dead mother....who was murdered....in front of you.   

 

But I honestly think the word bullying has been thrown around with abandon lately and often in situations where it just doesn't apply. 

Edited November 12, 2014 by RealityGal

[Jlina]

The fight between the kids is very 70's parenting.  I bit a girl once in the shoulder; she trashed me, I was at home in the tub being cleaned up from the mud when a knock came on the door and her mother had sent her over to bite me back. 

 

Maybe we've evolved, but all the pc-ing about it is a very recent thing. As would be sending a kid to a psychiatrist because he defended his mother's memory.

 

Besides, just as a plot device at some point Bruce has to learn how to fight, and be motivated to really fight so, eh.  No big deal. And I like Alfred a lot. 

[Camera One]

I don't think Bruce is going to continue to hunt that guy down, so he won't become his bully.  They created a situation where Bruce did not have many other alternatives.  He tried talking back to the bully and refuse to engage.  However, the bully specifically approached Bruce to harass him further, along with a bunch of thugs.  I think they were supposed to have ganged up on Bruce and roughed him up.  

 

I suppose one thing Bruce could have done is to threaten the kids' parents with unemployment if they don't get the little punks in line.  

 

The way the bully was bleeding around his mouth, he reminded me a little of Joker.

 

I think Bruce did hit him one too many times.  I hope he does learn to restrain himself, and he deals with that "enjoying hurting him" part.  That could be interesting to explore.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Camera One

[2KllMckngBrd]

The fight between the kids is very 70's parenting.  I bit a girl once in the shoulder; she trashed me, I was at home in the tub being cleaned up from the mud when a knock came on the door and her mother had sent her over to bite me back. 

 

Maybe we've evolved, but all the pc-ing about it is a very recent thing. As would be sending a kid to a psychiatrist because he defended his mother's memory.

 

Besides, just as a plot device at some point Bruce has to learn how to fight, and be motivated to really fight so, eh.  No big deal. And I like Alfred a lot. 

Applause. Applause. It is very recent that parents had to worry that somebody would get shot, and not just their ass kicked. So I get it. But you talk shit about my murdered parents and I am going to find a way to fuck you up. And I'm going to enjoy it. You won't be killed. It won't be permanent. You won't have a limp or nothing. But I am going to fuck you up.

 

Now we all know where lil Bruce's life is headed. So that's why we are reading so much into to his level of aggression and enjoyment of the aggression. But if we didn't, not sure so many people would be concerned about his overall mental health. I like that he was bullied by that kid. But only b/c it further informs where Bruce is headed.

 

But like most things YMMV.

 

 

And I hate Barbara. Hate isn't even enough. A poster that I quoted in a previous ep called her aggressively stupid. Well I aggressively hate Barbara. I tweeted that I was yelling at the screen, and my son walked in and asked why I was yelling. W/out missing a beat, and before I even had time to look up, he looked at the screen, saw Barbara, and said oh. And walked out of the room. Ta-da. That is all.

 

 

edited b/c I forget the necessary hatred for Barbara

Edited November 12, 2014 by 2KllMckngBrd

[Kromm]

Yeah, that kid was a bully. And now a Bruce is also a bully, thanks to his thuggish behavior.

I don't want to be too blunt, but... Batman IS a bully.  That's the unstated truth behind him--he's the bigger bully who intimidates the criminals of Gotham into keeping their heads down (at least the petty ones--it's less effective with the crazy ones).

 

I know that's less emphasized with the cherry happy Batman we see leading a teenaged boy around, but most of the rest of the time that's firmly where he's planted.

 

Is it the same when he does it to some other boy? Probably not.  But it makes sense as the root of what he does later on, and if we don't recognize that Batman the grown up has the same traits, I feel we're not seeing the character all that clearly.  He has other qualities, of course (the Detective, for example) but the Bullier of Bullies is very core one.

[missbonnie]

Watching Gordon fuck up everyone at at Office Max Fight Club, was hot.

Had me feeling some type of way.

Heh,me too. That is one fine piece of man in my book. I really enjoy this show. My only worry is we keep hearing about this person and that person/persons from the Batman lore or whatever. I really wish they'd slow down a bit, it's like they are trying to cram everything into the first season and then what? Slow down guys, I am fairly certain that you are going to get a couple of seasons here.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm going to struggle with this show if the "case of the week" episodes don't improve drastically. This was a huge step back from last week's enjoyable episode. My main problem is that the villains suck up too much time, leaving Gordon's storylines bare-boned and underdeveloped. Most of Fish's scenes seem to exist solely to give JPS something to do. They barely advance the plot and they don't inform her character. I feel similarly about Penguin but at least there's more going on with him. Their scenes always amount to "Fish is still scheming and Penguin is still a psycho", but that shouldn't take up a third of the shows running time. They need to decide what the show is actually about, but I suppose having these actors in the main credits forces their hand.

 

The case of the week was not compelling. What was the villain's motive? I mean I know all these bad guys ostensibly exist because "that's what happens in Gotham", but this one was particularly uninspired. There's also a reoccuring theme of really inept criminals, as it always feels like it takes roughly 5 minutes to solve a case. That's obviously a result of not enough show time spent on the police work and maybe it's even logical given the ineffectiveness of the police in this town, but it doesn't make for good television.

 

Selina's scenes served mostly to remind the audience that she still exists. Her being back at the department is not much of a cliffhanger. I won't even get into Barbara, who seemingly left Gordon because he hung up on her.

 

I still enjoy Harvey and I like that Essen is getting some development, but it's all pretty predictable and painting-by-numbers writing. The one thing that works best for me at this point is Bruce and Alfred, as it feels relevant and well paced. That can't be said about most other aspects of this show.

[Shanna]

Yeah, that kid was a bully. And now a Bruce is also a bully, thanks to his thuggish behavior.

right?

I don't think what Bruce did was bullying. I think it was retaliation. I'm old school though, you knock the bully down he leaves you alone. It's the doing it off alone with Alfred that made it a little creepy but this is the guy who is going to turn vigilante so for him it makes total sense. I think the kid will be smart enough not to rat him out, because that conversation includes the part where he mocked and attacked the really rick kid whose parents just died on his first day back to school. And even if your parents are awful, that conversation will probably not go well.

I loved this episode. Jim is a badass.

I totally get Barbara freaking out but I won't defend it because she took the cowards way and left without talking to him. Bad form Barbara.

[tv echo]

Sorry for the Carol Kane mistake.  I was thinking Princess Bride ("Have fun storming the castle!") and for some reason got the actress's name wrong.

 

The problem with Barbara is that she's been given the "Barbara" name so they can't get rid of her as Gordon's love interest.  Now Gotham has the same comic book canon "Laurel problem" that Arrow has been struggling with.  Perhaps Barbara can just go away and, one or two seasons down the road, Gordon meets another woman named Barbara - and Bullock can make a joke about how Gordon has a weakness for women named Barbara.

Edited November 12, 2014 by tv echo

[Actionmage]

The problem with Barbara is

 

The writing for her.  They may be writing scenes that are left on the cutting room floor or considered not important, but are character beats for her. Idk, but there is even less characterization for Barbara than Laurel, but with more seeming inconsistency than Ms. Lance. That is why I can't get upset with her this episode. I was all wtf at the end, but not even moved to get het up about it.  The writing implies there are Reasons For Her Actions, but we aren't getting anything, so that's a writing fail in the midst of Cat, Alfred, Captain Essen, Edward, even Freddie, Maroni's right hand. You understand where these folks are coming from. That's writing. My anger is directed to the people who seem to write nice beats for under- fives, but one of the secondary characters can't catch a break?

 

Jim is a badass.

 

It is why The Detective and The Commish will get along-- game recognize game.

 

Who were all those people watching the fights and saying nothing.  I don't see how that could be remotely related to the Wayne murder.

 

The folks watching the Office Max Fight Club were all employees of The Mask's company. Several of the men were obviously survivors, with their healing bruises. IA with the poster that even if someone was wanting to squeal on the deaths, they may not as they felt complicit in that death, especially if they watched the feed. It wasn't meant to be related to the Waynes, though. Probably a not-so-subtle critique of The Corporate Warrior stuff that's been around for a while.

 

My question about Office Max Fight Club: Why the cages? The fights were the "interview".  If someone wanted out, why not let them? If there had been no deaths before the one GPD caught, then any candidate who told anyone could be dismissed as crazy and/or sour grapes. Sionis seems like the kind of turd who would take pleasure in spreading lies about a potential whistleblower and making sure the person could not get hired as a homeless person. So, why cages?

[Danielg342]

My guess is that Barbara and Jimmy are “star-crossed lovers” or something...they'll be on, and then off, then on, off, on, off before becoming “on” again just in time to have Batgirl. Her departure at the end seems to suggest we're supposed to have some kind of “mystery” involving her loyalties, I think it rings hollow.

[maczero]

I don't think what Bruce did was bullying. I think it was retaliation. I'm old school though, you knock the bully down he leaves you alone. It's the doing it off alone with Alfred that made it a little creepy

Agreed.  I don't really have a problem with Bruce wanting payback and even enjoying it.  It's Alfred involvement that's a bit disturbing.  I expected Alfred to give Bruce some boxing lessons.  However, in the real world a few boxing lessons isn't going to overcome the size advantage that the kid (Danny?) had over Bruce.  So Alfred gives him a weapon and tells him to cold cock the kid as soon as he opens the door.  Not exactly quality parenting there but it was effective advice.  Although, the part that really makes me chuckle is Alfred taunting the kid afterwards.  It reminds me of Chris Tucker's character in Friday saying "You got knocked the fuck out!".

[Shanna]

The difference between this show and arrow is that I actually like the actress who plays Barbara and I like she and him together. I think it is just the writing that has failed her, or alternately they are just meaning to show us a flawed individual. I can live with that but I hope they show some explanation or show her turn around. I think we need to see what makes her tick, maybe through some sort of story for her that has nothing to do with jim. It's probably too early in the story for that.

[AzureOwl]

So the boss picks five candidates and makes them physically fight for a job.  Some of them end up dead.  100 employees are watching on their computers in between trades or whatever it is else they are doing.  I find it hard to believe that not one of them would go to the police when it was reported that a few dead bodies in business attire show up.

 

True.  But there were like 100 employees.  Where have the bodies of the previous 400 victims gone?  Surely this wasn't the first time a deceased applicant was discovered, was it?

 

Who were all those people watching the fights and saying nothing.  I don't see how that could be remotely related to the Wayne murder.  Are they saying corruption has increased?  It seemed pretty entrenched already.

 

This makes sense, since anyone who would object to fight clubbing as a personnel selection tool wouldn’t have agreed to participate in the first place and therefore would be unaware of the lethal outcome. This works surprisingly well as a selection tool for Sionis, because it lets him select people who share his proclivities.

 

Remember, it wasn’t just Sionis fulfilling his deranged fantasies; his entire staff was enjoying the hell out of the show Gordon was putting. That added to their own complicity in at least some of the deaths would be enough to keep them quiet.

 

It’s also very telling about the Gothamites. A few episodes ago, when Fish Mooney used the exact same method to decide who would get the honey-trap job (it seems to be more common in Gotham than one would think), while Liza asked for a clarification her opponent started taking her earrings almost the second Fish finished talking. Like it was something normal. And neither of them objected in the slightest.

 

This all plays into what, for me, is the big takeaway from this episode: that the show is acknowledging the fact that everyone in Gotham is fucking crazy.

 

As Gordon and Essen were talking about at the precinct, the Wayne’s murder only brought it up to the surface, but the average Gothamite is an overly violent drama queen.  Even the most professional and down to earth criminals can’t just hijack a truck; they have to chain a gaggle of nuns across the street to do it!

 

Which is only to be expected of a city that will produce someone like Batman and his colorful Rogue’s Gallery.

Edited November 12, 2014 by AzureOwl

[2KllMckngBrd]

The problem with Barbara is that she's been given the "Barbara" name so they can't get rid of her as Gordon's love interest.  Now Gotham has the same comic book canon "Laurel problem" that Arrow has been struggling with.  Perhaps Barbara can just go away and, one or two seasons down the road, Gordon meets another woman named Barbara - and Bullock can make a joke about how Gordon has a weakness for women named Barbara.

Oh please let it be, lord, let it be. I do not like this Barbara. I do not like the actress playing Barbara. And that's been my fear all along. That we are just stuck with her. I don't read comics. But you don't have to, to know that Jim Gordon's wife is a "Barbara". So your out, although funny, works for me...

LMAO.

[Snookums]

Barbra continues to piss me off.

 

 

The writers continue to piss me off with taking what could have been a great character and transforming her into a weepy drunk idiot with an allergy to pants. Seriously, we get it, she's a gorgeous woman but can she please be wearing clothes at some point? And the back and forthing with her motivations with seemingly no greater goal than making sure she's doing the stupidest thing possible at all times is beyond grating. I don't know how the actress stands it. 

 

Loving Carol Kane and her nutty perfection. Her story of getting rid of her dance school rival was both hilarious and absolutely chilling--Jeez, even Bruce might shrink at denouncing his bully's parents to the Stalinist police! I like how the show underlines that Gotham is like Hill House from Shirley Jackson's novel if it was an entire city--as a character puts it, "It is a place of contained ill will." It attracts these brutal, savage offbeat weirdos and moves them around like people in a deranged Playskool My First Town. And the idea of the Waynes being the plug in the dyke that was deliberately and maliciously removed in order to pour forth all this dark and damaged crazy is scary as well.

 

Loved Jim having not one smidgen of a wisp of a crap of patience with the whole "businessman warrior" shit talk. When Mask in his guise as the CEO was gassing on about it he rolled his eyes so hard he could probably literally see behind him. And the second he was put in with the wannabes I was all "this will only last more then thirty seconds because he doesn't want to kill three people in a row." and KAZING that is what happened. James Gordon has more style and discipline then anybody in Gotham has ever conceived of dealing with and that is what will save the city--how the cops, so filthy they could audition for Pigpen were actually made to feel shame for their craven cowardice, how the villain of the week just had no clue what he was up against, how Jim just won't compromise because he knows it's poison. 

[Snookums]

So the boss picks five candidates and makes them physically fight for a job.  Some of them end up dead.  100 employees are watching on their computers in between trades or whatever it is else they are doing.  I find it hard to believe that not one of them would go to the police when it was reported that a few dead bodies in business attire show up.

 

 

Harvey had a line about how all the employees signed a confidentiality agreement so they were legally complicit in not only the murders they committed but the others as well--i.e., knowing and not contacting the police. Pretty gruesome flat circle of an office atmosphere, that.

[MisterGlass]

 

I don't think what Bruce did was bullying. I think it was retaliation. I'm old school though, you knock the bully down he leaves you alone. It's the doing it off alone with Alfred that made it a little creepy.

 

Agreed.  I don't really have a problem with Bruce wanting payback and even enjoying it.  It's Alfred involvement that's a bit disturbing.

 

For those who've read Ender's Game,

I was reminded of Ender and his bullies. Ender said his goal was to win not just the fight he was in, but to prevent all the fights they might have had in the future. However, Ender killed two of his adversaries without realizing it.

 

Bruce was prepared to take his fight further, but Alfred told him the point had been made, and he stopped.  It may be that Alfred's role is to teach Bruce when the fight is over, as much as how to fight.  With his background, Alfred may feel like he is finally in familiar territory.

[Agent Dark]

wrt to Tommy Elliot (the kid that was bullying Bruce) - comic book spoilers:

Tommy Elliot is a Batman Villain called 'Hush'. He was a childhood friend of Bruce's, who was always secretly resentful that Bruce got his parent's inheritance while Tommy himself didn't see any of his own parent's money (despite the fact that Tommy himself even attempted to murder his own parents). He becomes especially resentful when Bruce's father performs the surgery that saves his mother's life after Tommy cut the brake lines on her car and caused her to crash).

As for the Black Mask, Roman Sionis (not Richard as he was here - a father maybe?) had similar childhood connections to Bruce Wayne and, like Tommy, had some pretty severe issues with his parents and ended up killing them. Roman Sionis' mask in the comics is a straight up black skull though, not the Samurai inspired mask thing that Richard Sionis was wearing. The interesting thing about Black Mask in the comics is that he sort of ends up becoming Gotham's premier crime boss after the collapse of the traditional crime families.

[Actionmage]

Snookums? Your last two posts were wonderful. If I may, a virtual hug?

[Trini]

I don't want to be too blunt, but... Batman IS a bully.  That's the unstated truth behind him--he's the bigger bully who intimidates the criminals of Gotham into keeping their heads down (at least the petty ones--it's less effective with the crazy ones).

 

I know that's less emphasized with the cherry happy Batman we see leading a teenaged boy around, but most of the rest of the time that's firmly where he's planted.

 

Is it the same when he does it to some other boy? Probably not.  But it makes sense as the root of what he does later on, and if we don't recognize that Batman the grown up has the same traits, I feel we're not seeing the character all that clearly.  He has other qualities, of course (the Detective, for example) but the Bullier of Bullies is very core one.

He's NOT Batman YET; and I don't need to see a mini-Batman. I'd be nice to see who Bruce is without everything as a nod to the future. Some subtlety would be be better.

 

I don't think what Bruce did was bullying. I think it was retaliation.

Okay, we can use a different label. It's still awful that he's being encouraged to beat another kid in the face. There needs to be  someone else in Bruce's life *cough*LeslieThompkins*cough* to counteract Alfred's sad parenting.

 

On a completely different note...

Before, I had assumed that the old woman in Fish's nightclub was her mother, but she didn't actually call her that. They made it a bit ambiguous, so now I'm thinking she could be her grandmother, aunt, or friend of the family. I feel that Fish isn't the type to have her mom meddle in her business!

[shapeshifter]

...Bullock was almost too supportive of Gordon, in an abrupt about-face from the beginning of this series. I kept waiting for a scene where it would be revealed that he was secretly working for one of the villains. But nope, it didn't happen....

Ever since that episode where they they sort of retconned Bullock's past to show him as Gordon-esque (doing the right thing but getting his partner killed in the process), I figured Bullock would wind up supporting Gordon till death do 'em part (hopefully off screen after the series finale).

...Before, I had assumed that the old woman in Fish's nightclub was her mother, but she didn't actually call her that. They made it a bit ambiguous, so now I'm thinking she could be her grandmother, aunt, or friend of the family. I feel that Fish isn't the type to have her mom meddle in her business!

I agree that it wasn't clear, but I assumed she was Fish's mom as soon as she accused Fish of making up history (about her mom being dead).

And I'm still waiting to find out who played her.

Edited November 13, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Camera One]

Ever since that episode where they they sort of retconned Bullock's past to show him as Gordon-esque (doing the right thing but getting his partner killed in the process), I figured Bullock would wind up supporting Gordon till death do 'em part (hopefully off screen after the series finale).

 

It resulted in a sweet scene, but I almost wish they didn't do that.  It went too far to make him as idealistic as the old partner said he was.

[jagfan05]

Confusion on something about Black Mask in this episode. I know they referenced him as Richard Sionis and Black Mask's name is actually Roman Sionis. So was this actually the Black Mask or his father? How do you know for sure?

 

It couldn't be the Black Mask could it because he would be really old by the time Batman is around?

[Trini]

I agree that it wasn't clear, but I assumed she was Fish's mom as soon as she accused Fish of making up history (about her mom being dead).

And I'm still waiting to find out who played her.

The end credits list a "Maggie" played by Teodorina Bello.

[Syndicate]

I'm going to struggle with this show if the "case of the week" episodes don't improve drastically. This was a huge step back from last week's enjoyable episode. My main problem is that the villains suck up too much time, leaving Gordon's storylines bare-boned and underdeveloped. Most of Fish's scenes seem to exist solely to give JPS something to do. They barely advance the plot and they don't inform her character. I feel similarly about Penguin but at least there's more going on with him. Their scenes always amount to "Fish is still scheming and Penguin is still a psycho", but that shouldn't take up a third of the shows running time. They need to decide what the show is actually about, but I suppose having these actors in the main credits forces their hand.

 

The case of the week was not compelling. What was the villain's motive? I mean I know all these bad guys ostensibly exist because "that's what happens in Gotham", but this one was particularly uninspired. There's also a reoccuring theme of really inept criminals, as it always feels like it takes roughly 5 minutes to solve a case. That's obviously a result of not enough show time spent on the police work and maybe it's even logical given the ineffectiveness of the police in this town, but it doesn't make for good television.

 

Selina's scenes served mostly to remind the audience that she still exists. Her being back at the department is not much of a cliffhanger. I won't even get into Barbara, who seemingly left Gordon because he hung up on her.

 

I still enjoy Harvey and I like that Essen is getting some development, but it's all pretty predictable and painting-by-numbers writing. The one thing that works best for me at this point is Bruce and Alfred, as it feels relevant and well paced. That can't be said about most other aspects of this show.

I continue to love this show, but my oh my do I agree with this ENTIRE post.  I posted about two weeks ago that this show could and would be better if it ditched the "case of the week" format.  I've decided that the Batman/Gotham universe is so huge that there's plenty of storyline opportunities without cheesy villains of the week.

[Kromm]

He's NOT Batman YET; and I don't need to see a mini-Batman. I'd be nice to see who Bruce is without everything as a nod to the future. Some subtlety would be be better.

 

Okay, we can use a different label. It's still awful that he's being encouraged to beat another kid in the face. There needs to be  someone else in Bruce's life *cough*LeslieThompkins*cough* to counteract Alfred's sad parenting.

I agree Leslie could have countered some of this, but I get the strong impression from the material they've released on Leslie that maybe they're just using the name and profession for this coming character and not necessarily her role in Bruce Wayne's life.  Which kind of removes the point of Leslie, so it's a bit frustrating, other than the small chance that maybe she won't be an idiot like Barbara, or a vengeful blind brickbat of a plot device, like Montoya, or a lunatic, like Fish, and (fingers crossed) show that a woman living in Gotham City might actually have positive qualities.

 

As for Bruce and mini-Batman-ness?  In principle I agree, but in practice viewing this I don't think I do. Bruce as some normal functional kid doesn't do us much good in the plot department.  Why would we be interested in that person?  Bruce is screwed up--it's the tragedy of Batman.  Alfred being an enabler of that is a new bit added into the story, made possible by Alfred being a few years younger, but the key here isn't who introduced the idea to Bruce, but instead if we needed to see a Bruce of this age absorbing Batman's life lessons.  I think maybe we do.  Putting the spin on it that it's "a nod to the future" isn't a negative, but a positive.

 

Does everything have to be a nod to the future?  No. But I do think this particular one DOES make sense as such. If they want to mix things up with Bruce a bit so it's not all foreshadowing and barely veiled references, that's fine.  But Bruce Wayne solving problems by being ruthless is the kind of deep lesson I don't see as some small thing.  Could they have done it with a bit more subtlety?  Perhaps.  

 

If they devoted more storytime to Bruce (they don't really give him much--which is fine), we could have perhaps seen Bruce in debate class crushing people verbally, or some subplot where Bruce only turns ruthless because some bully is picking on some helpless kid in class and only THEN does Bruce bring down the proto-Bat-Justice.  But with as little time as they had, I don't think this was that bad.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Kromm

[Gella]

Jim Gordon -- Ben Mckenzie -- Ryan Atwood -- Fists of Fury. He always plays barely suppressed violence very well. His portrayal of Officer Ben Sherman in Southland is case in point. I really enjoy him in this role.

If Bruce learns to solve all his issues by talking he'll never become Batman. Some violence is true to the future character.