S01.E08: The Mask

[Snookums]

Snookums? Your last two posts were wonderful. If I may, a virtual hug?

 

 

Awww! *cuddles*. Anything for a veteran of Under The Dome!

[Shanna]

I love the Enders game analogy! Yes, that's it exactly. Bruce was trying to hit that kid hard enough that he would leave him alone in the future and Alfred was there to add extra backup and to show that kid that Bruce wouldn't suffer for it and had his caretakers backing. So don't mess with him again. I can't find it awful since Bruce didn't start that fight and if he'd let it go it would have happened again an again because the other kid really was a bully. Bruce wasn't, but he also wasn't going to be a passive victim. I really liked that scene.

[maczero]

Bruce didn't start that fight ......

Technically Bruce did throw the first punch (or actually slap).  Not saying Bruce was wrong to do so but there was always the option of ignoring the kid or snitching.  I know not very Batman like but it's not like Bruce was forced to defend himself.

[RealityGal]

Technically Bruce did throw the first punch (or actually slap).  Not saying Bruce was wrong to do so but there was always the option of ignoring the kid or snitching.  I know not very Batman like but it's not like Bruce was forced to defend himself.

He tried ignoring the kid, and then the kid and three of the kid's cronies cornered Bruce and started talking even more shit about his dead mother.  Snitching would have made the entire school his enemy.  And what exactly is a principal going to do about a kid talking shit?  Tell the kid to stop, and how well do you think thats going to work?  Talk to his parents?  So they can make excuses for their precious angel who would have never done anything like that!

 

If a 12 year old boy can't throw fists for someone talking shit about his dead mother and asking if he saw her guts or not, then I think we've entered a world where nothing has become sacred.  I think Bruce was absolutely pushed into that fight, I don't think the kid would have ever stopped his campaign of assholery otherwise.

[patchwork]

Ugh can Barbara just give birth to future Batgirl/Oracle/whatever name Barbara Gordon is currently using then disappear so I can have Jim holding a cute baby and struggle to balance single parenthood with being a cop.

 

I've been trying to give her a fair shot since the pilot but she's just a so pointless. I know some things are canon like Barry Allen/Iris West but when something doesn't work why keep forcing it? 

Edited November 13, 2014 by patchwork

[maczero]

He tried ignoring the kid, and then the kid and three of the kid's cronies cornered Bruce and started talking even more shit about his dead mother.  Snitching would have made the entire school his enemy.  And what exactly is a principal going to do about a kid talking shit?  Tell the kid to stop, and how well do you think thats going to work?  Talk to his parents?  So they can make excuses for their precious angel who would have never done anything like that!

Students are expected to tell a teacher if they feel threatened or bullied.  So yes, snitching does make one a pariah but it's still an option. 

[RealityGal]

Students are expected to tell a teacher if they feel threatened or bullied.  So yes, snitching does make one a pariah but it's still an option. 

Not just a pariah, but he could expect even more bullying about his dead mother.  Just because you can do something doesn't make it a reasonable option, if his teachers were unable to do anything, and frankly there was nothing they could do but stand aside.  You bring that kid into the office and ask him if he was talking shit, all he has to do is say he wasn't, how do you know otherwise, you gonna ask his little cronies?  You think they are going to tell the truth?  No, so then what can you do about a kid getting picked on about his dead mother.  Nothing.  

 

Me eating nothing but astronaut ice cream for the rest of my life is also an option, but its not really a reasonable one.  As is telling someone at the school who has no power to do anything.  You can't kick a kid out of school for something you can't even prove he said, I would be surprised if you could even discipline a kid for something you can't prove he said.  Parents of children at an exclusive prep school are generally a little more pushy than the average bear, they want their kids record spotless so they can go on to an exclusive high school and then an exclusive college, so you had better have your i dotted and your t's crossed before you come at their child with some discipline.

 

 But you can bet your bottom dollar, no matter what, that kid would go around telling everyone how Bruce snitched on him and then everyone at school hates him and picks on him for his dead mother. 

[maczero]

Not just a pariah, but he could expect even more bullying about his dead mother.  Just because you can do something doesn't make it a reasonable option, if his teachers were unable to do anything, and frankly there was nothing they could do but stand aside.  You bring that kid into the office and ask him if he was talking shit, all he has to do is say he wasn't, how do you know otherwise, you gonna ask his little cronies?  You think they are going to tell the truth?  No, so then what can you do about a kid getting picked on about his dead mother.  Nothing.

Let's back it up.  What Bruce did wasn't actually reasonable.  His actions were motivated out of anger and later revenge.  He smacked the kid for talking shit about his mom.  Totally understandable but if we're considering school a microcosm of adult society, then Bruce has already broken the law.  I mean I'd love to punch the shit out anyone who said something that pisses me off but I'd actually be in the wrong for doing so.  In any case, Bruce catches a beatdown for the smack.  Now he did stand up to the bully but in real life having courage isn't enough to stop you from getting your ass kicked.  So now Bruce wants payback (I don't blame him) but he still has the opportunity to leave at it that.  In real life, kids lose fights.  No big deal.  You take your lumps.  However, this is proto-Batman so narratively it makes sense that he wouldn't leave it at that.

[RealityGal]

Let's back it up.  What Bruce did wasn't actually reasonable.  His actions were motivated out of anger and later revenge.  He smacked the kid for talking shit about his mom.  Totally understandable but if we're considering school a microcosm of adult society, then Bruce has already broken the law.  I mean I'd love to punch the shit out anyone who said something that pisses me off but I'd actually be in the wrong for doing so.  In any case, Bruce catches a beatdown for the smack.  Now he did stand up to the bully but in real life having courage isn't enough to stop you from getting your ass kicked.  So now Bruce wants payback (I don't blame him) but he still has the opportunity to leave at it that.  In real life, kids lose fights.  No big deal.  You take your lumps.  However, this is proto-Batman so narratively it makes sense that he wouldn't leave it at that.

 

 I don't necessarily consider school a microcosm of an adult world, because its populated by children.  As I saw it, Bruce was bold, smacked the kid, got an ass whipping and then was going to run away....it looked to me like he was going to insist that he wasn't going to go back to school.  I think Alfred saw, and was right to see that these little jerks were never going to stop.  So what are the alternatives?  You allow Bruce to continue on being a daily victim because the bullies got the upper hand the first time and will never stop, and there are three or four against one or you allow Bruce to simply stay home and avoid all conflict.

 

There was nothing fair in a fight with 3 or 4 on 1, so Alfred created a situation where it was a 1 on 1 fight.  And suddenly the bully who had some big talk when he had 3 other kids to back him up was quiet, and after Alfred's little talk it will stop.

 

To me, the path Bruce and Alfred took was reasonable.  Even more reasonable given the other options available. 

 

1. Tell a person in authority,and then they can do nothing and the entire school hates you

2. Go to school everyday and get beat up and psychologically tortured by a group of bullies

3. Give up and be quiet and let some punk kids talk about your dead mother

4. Transfer to another school - perhaps reasonable, but if the Wayne's were big business figures he will face the same thing at another school

5. Ask the bully very nicely to please leave you alone

Edited November 13, 2014 by RealityGal

[Shanna]

We have a legal concept of "fighting words" for a reason. I'm pretty sure talking shit about a 12 year olds dead mother the day he got back to school would qualify. Bruce tried to retreat, multiple times and the kid pursued him. He brought a posse to back him up. And then when Bruce finally got angry enough to throw a rather old school, gentlemanly slap the kid was happy he could finally throw a punch (or whatever he did off screen that hurt Bruce). That was his intention from the start and he wasn't stopping.

And telling a teacher does nothing except get you more of the same, maybe sneakier.

[Camera One]

And since this is Gotham, the parents can probably bribe the administration of the school to make anything go away. I'm assuming corruption infiltrates all levels in this city, and if that's the case, it would also be true with the school.  That was a whole gang of kids, which would equal a whole gang of parents.  And it wouldn't be surprising if those parents hated the Waynes due to their power and influence, and passed that on to their children.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Camera One

[Kromm]

And since this is Gotham, the parents can probably bribe the administration of the school to make anything go away. I'm assuming corruption infiltrates all levels in this city, and if that's the case, it would also be true with the school.  That was a whole gang of kids, which would equal a whole gang of parents.  And it wouldn't be surprising if those parents hated the Waynes due to their power and influence, and passed that on to their children.

It could be even twister than that.  Even if the Waynes were very lighthanded with their power (we just don't know), people would not only resent them, but kowtow to them (thus upping the resentment even more).  So when you remove the parents, even though Bruce still theoretically has all the same money, he's kind of unprotected.  The people who kowtowed and resented it sense vulnerability.  The kids in school who probably previously pretended to be his friends, stop sucking up and in fact feel they have to turn on him to show their dominance.  He doesn't just face new resentment, but buried old resentment.

[paigow]

I'm guessing Alfred's reasoning for teaching Bruce himself is he can clearly see how determined and driven the kid is. Once he puts his mind on something he's going to do it no matter what. It's better he (Alfred) teach Bruce self defense/fighting in a controlled environment where he can monitor and help him out.

Is this version of Alfred the same one that burned down a jungle to kill one man? 

[KirkB]

This version would probably do that and more. Caine's Alfred was a badass in the past. I kind of get the feeling Pertwee's still is.

[Ubiquitous]

The Fish/Penguin stuff was alright.  She didn't miss her right-hand man at all?  I find it hard to believe that Falcone's men wouldn't have noticed Falcone and that girl speaking on two different occasions, even if one was in the confession booth.  

I was wondering what wold keep someone from seeing Fish enter the confessional booth.

 

I agree that it wasn't clear, but I assumed she was Fish's mom as soon as she accused Fish of making up history (about her mom being dead).

Yeah, i thought that was Fish's mother. Did Fish say her mother was killed or just imply it? I noticed she said she stayed silent and hidden while her mother lay on the other side of the room, not "as she died".

[Actionmage]

Is this version of Alfred the same one that burned down a jungle to kill one man?

 

Alfred did not burn down a jungle to kill one man.  Here is that passage:

 

"Alfred: With respect, Master Wayne, perhaps this is a man that you don’t fully understand, either. A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anyone who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away.

 

Bruce: So why steal them?

 

Alfred: Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren’t looking for anything logical, like money. They can’t be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

 

(It's one of my favorite Michael Caine moments.)

[MisterGlass]

There is a brief, sad follow-up to that speech, later in the film:

 

Bruce: The bandit, in the forest in Burma, did you catch him?

Alfred: Yes.

Bruce: How?

Alfred: We burned the forest down.

 

Regarding the woman singing, I also took her to be Fish's mother.  Fish was very geuine with her, compared to her behavior in front of other people.  It makes for an interesting parallel with Penguin, that their mothers are both near and dear to them.

[RealityGal]

There is a brief, sad follow-up to that speech, later in the film:

 

Bruce: The bandit, in the forest in Burma, did you catch him?

Alfred: Yes.

Bruce: How?

Alfred: We burned the forest down.

 

Regarding the woman singing, I also took her to be Fish's mother.  Fish was very geuine with her, compared to her behavior in front of other people.  It makes for an interesting parallel with Penguin, that their mothers are both near and dear to them.

I think she is either Fish's mother, or her "mother" and I'm okay with that because I can already tell that I like the woman who plays her.

[Old House Nut]

Just catching up on my viewing via Hulu, so this is late. But, wow, I didn't much care for that at all. Having an episode which includes an entire procedural (which was really silly for many reasons) AND a subplot involving Bruce at school AND a subplot involving Gordon and Barbara's relationship AND a subplot involving Fish AND a subplot involving the Penguin AND a subplot involving Catwoman was all just too much. WAY too much. Better to focus on one (or two) things each week. 45 minutes just isn't enough time to develop so many story lines at the same time. 

 

A few other nitpicks. I hope they stop using the last-second-rescue trope. It seems like that has now been seen in every single episode. And to no particular advantage. What was achieved by having the police chief show up (alone?) to interact with Gordon? (And did she have a warrant to enter? I honestly can't even remember what prompted them to fan out to the entire list of addresses in the first place.) And, just as a matter of editing, it was odd that they started the fight at the Office Depot with Gordon and then dropped in the scene where Bullock is handing out the addresses, and then back to the continuation of the fight. It was as if the police chief magically was teleported to the scene of the fight in one second.

 

And exactly what was up with Penguin's robbing the woman of her broach? Are we to think that he was just walking along and decided to rob her at exactly the same instance that she walked out of her house? Or that he had been stalking her to get that exact piece of jewelry?

 

Now, as for something nice to say, I continue to love the scenery. I know that some of the sets (e.g., police station) are built on a sound stage. But, several of the sets seem to be filmed on location in historic buildings -- the Mask's office, for example. If those aren't real spots used for filming, then the stage director has one of the best eyes for c. 1910-1930 design I've ever seen and must have a fantastic collection of craftsmen to execute the plans.

[Actionmage]

Mister Glass, thank you. I did forget that portion. Man, was Nolan working out problems or something through the scripts? They had to be the darkest versions of those characters I remember. 

 

More OT:

I think she is either Fish's mother, or her "mother" and I'm okay with that because I can already tell that I like the woman who plays her.

 

I was figuring, if it wasn't her mom, it might have been a grandma. I also liked the actress. I do hope we see her again.

 

I was wondering what wold keep someone from seeing Fish enter the confessional booth.

 

With this trope, I always head-cannon that the more important "hidee" has gotten there before scheduled confessions. Therefore, scheduled the meet so they could arrive and not seem out of line. Bribes are a given, especially in Gotham, so no surprise early sessions.  It's a situation that's been around so long in media, I have idly made a head-canon for it.

[Camera One]

Knowing Fish, she probably dressed up as a nun to go into the Church.

 

I'm afraid Fish's grandma or whoever that is will end up being collateral damage.

[immortalfrieza]

The point of Alfred's actions with Bruce's tormentors and especially his words at the end was to get Tommy to fear Bruce and thus stop his abuse. Alfred knew that if a kid that insults another kid's dead mother, not to mention only a short while after that kid had just witnessed that mother be murdered was willing to go that far it would quickly escalate until Bruce was the one lying broken and bleeding on the floor, so he decided to nip that in the bud right off. That scene was Alfred's way of saying "do NOT F**K with this kid again!"

 

Plus, if one thing has been shown about Alfred in all his incarnations including this one is that he had great respect for the Waynes and considered them very close friends on top of being their servant. No doubt Tommy mocking Mrs. Wayne so brazenly right on Bruce's first day royally pissed him off.

 

I for one applaud Alfred for what he did. He's not teaching Bruce to be a thug, far from it, he's teaching him that some people sometimes REALLY deserve to get their faces bashed in, but he's also teaching Bruce that it's an occasional course of action only reserved for those that really need it. That's what I wish parents across the world would really teach their children instead of this "don't fight no matter how much the other guy deserves it or even in your own defense" crap that most are on these days.

[Danielg342]

And to no particular advantage. What was achieved by having the police chief show up (alone?) to interact with Gordon? (And did she have a warrant to enter? I honestly can't even remember what prompted them to fan out to the entire list of addresses in the first place.)

Bullock and Gordon had split up to search for the building where the fights were taking place (since the building itself was unknown). Bullock came up empty and called Gordon to see if he had any luck. Gordon didn't pick up the phone- multiple times- so Bullock gave his rousing speech and got the help of the rest of the force to look at the addresses Gordon had on his list.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, there was a regular cop, Bullock and Essen who came to rescue Gordon...I think they needed that scene as a visual to show Gordon that the precinct turned the page on him.

[jhlipton]

 Let the woman in authority show some authority, show.

 

I see what you did there.  Applause.

 

So the boss picks five candidates and makes them physically fight for a job.  Some of them end up dead.  100 employees are watching on their computers in between trades or whatever it is else they are doing.  I find it hard to believe that not one of them would go to the police when it was reported that a few dead bodies in business attire show up.

 

And give up their bonus for the month?

 

Madeline Kahn could have been Oswald's crazy aunt.  Just picture her with her Bride of the Monster hair; what a match for Carol Kane's sister.

 

 

Now I'm picturing Madeline Kahn, Carol Kane and Bernadette Peters as Three Weird Sisters....

 

Tell a person in authority,and then they can do nothing and the entire school hates you

 

Not in my wife's school (she the Lunch Lady) or any modern school.  Bullying is taken very seriously, since it's known to lead to suicide.

[Kel Varnsen]

Besides, just as a plot device at some point Bruce has to learn how to fight, and be motivated to really fight so, eh.  No big deal. And I like Alfred a lot. 

That is what I am thinking. I mean Bruce is around 12 now. If he wants to be a world class fighter in multiple fighting disciplines by the time he is 25 he better start learning now I would think.

 

 

 (And did she have a warrant to enter? I honestly can't even remember what prompted them to fan out to the entire list of addresses in the first place.) 

Would she even need a warrant. They knew Gordon was missing for a long time after searching crime scenes. Presumably his car was in the parking lot or something. I would think she had probable cause to assume that a crime was in progress and/or an officer was in danger.  And TV cop/lawyer shows have taught me that in a situation like that you don't need a warrant. 

[jhlipton]

And TV cop/lawyer shows have taught me that in a situation like that you don't need a warrant. 

 

All you need to do is pretend to hear a call for help.  According to TV, lying about a situation trumps Constitutional rights!

[webruce]

Thomas and Martha Wayne being killed caused the zanies to come out of hiding. Liked 2 things here, Captain Sarah Essen should have stayed to help Gordon, and that Alfred is teaching Bruce how to fight. And has a no nonsense approach. We did not see how Bruce learned his skills, until the last series of Movies really. I figured that Bruce would have trouble with the boys at school. Tommy Elliott had to give him a tough time. It was nice the girl in school talked to Bruce. I was surprised Alfred took Bruce to Tommy's home and gave him the Rolex of his dad's. He told him not to break it. Then he paid Tommy back. Tommy was very surprised. Thought maybe his father or butler would come out and break it up.

It is an interesting concept to have to fight in a pseudo office to keep or get your job. So businessmen fight to and others in office watch the show on closed circuit tv. Financial business-owner Richard Sionis aka The Mask was the boss. He was so excited when Jim Gordon and Harvey Bullock came to ask him about the dead guy, Coleman Lawson. "What's with all the warrior baloney?" Asks Harvey. Sionis said It inspires me!" Jim's reply is, "So it's just juvenile play acting?" "Exactly!" Said Sionis. Then after he is asked about all the employee scars, Sionis reply's," Our touch football games get very rough!" "I'd give you a good cop routine, but it's not in my tool kit!" Replied Harvey. Very funny visit to his office. Sometimes they play off each other well.

Later when Gordon finds the men in cages in the closed office building and he asks one guy in a cage, "Is there anyone else here?" Then after Sionis hits him over the head he states, "That would be a yes!" I just had to laugh by the way he said it.

I liked Bullock's speech to his fellow cops to help find Gordon. I do think other Officers and Detectives like Alverez will eventually come around to Jim's side.

Them interrogating Adams(Thumb-less guy),was interesting, he told about the hiring processes. Did like how Jim took out the other prospects, and then had Sionis down. Then when he turned his back, I knew Sionis would come after him. But I thought Captain Essen would shoot him instead of Jim take him down. But Jim punches him. Then he turned to her and said, "Thank you!" And she wasn't sure why he said it. lol.

Salina "Katt" Kyle was snagged with furs coming out of a basement. She said she had to shop. She had to talk to Jim when brought to the precinct house. "Hey Detective,miss me?" "Yes I did". Jim responded.

Barbara was not very happy and Jim couldn't talk to her. So she left town? Not sure what is up there?

You can see where Edward Nygma gets frustrated when he tries to tell stuff to the Detectives. Between Harvey and the Medical Examiner he gets shut down.

Was surprised when Oswald went to see Fish Mooney. Then she stabbed his hand with the rich ladies brooch sticker. But poor Oswald replacement Timothy. Oswald got out of him later about Butch saying Fish had someone close to Falcone.

I liked sweet Liza and Momma Fish meeting in the confessional. Then she later copied Falcone's ledgers. You could see Liza was worried about Falcone if she gave him Fish's knockout drops. She probably thought Fish was going to poison him. But Falcone does not look at her as a lover, but as more of a Daughter/Friend. She seems so sweet and pure. Fish told Liza a story of her hooker mom being killed by a John when she was just a guppy. Then we see after she leaves that her Mom is fine and don't like her stories.

[webruce]

I agree @Misterglass, In Fish Mooney's own twisted way she loved Oswald. Even if it was more like a possesion. She wanted him to die and he didn't. Maybe in away that was to protect him? It's a cruel world out there. I think Oswald saw the same thing in Timothy as he thinks Mooney did in him. So squeeze him for all he can and eliminate her new "Oswald". Make it hurt more. Show he can't be replaced. Oswald's mom is definatelly a wild card.

I believe right now the one dimention of Barbara, is to show that Gordon can't have any peace right now. Even at home she don't trust him. I believe it is all building up to him putting away some big fish(not really meaning Mooney). But like he can't take it anymore. I also wonder if there was more of Barbara and Montoya that will come out?

Bruce does seem awkward and in the same way that Oswald and Nygma don't quite fit in. But little things will pull him toward good, instead of like them to bad. Bruce could be looked at as maybe a little Autistic. But his parents with prestige and money must have shielded him from a lot of the wrongs in Gotham. So with Thomas and Martha Wayne now gone and only Alfred to watch over him, Bruce is learning the cold hard truth of life. Maybe with things like him beating Tommy Elliott with Alfred's consent that problems that way will start to arise. It maybe why his Aunt Harriet finally moves in. But not sure if she moves in when he is young, or later when he is teens to twenties? Maybe she will be more of a solid foundation(if this series let's her move in).

@Trini, I agree that Captain Essen should have kicked butt to get the Officers in line. She told Jim how she felt bad she left. But I did like Bullock the way he told them off.

Edited January 1, 2015 by webruce