S08.E12: Death In Heaven

[mirrorrim]

Did anyone else catch that quick line where the Doctor asks the leader of UNIT how they knew what was going on, and the woman said "we got a tip from a woman with a Scottish accent." I thought that was perhaps a nod to Amy and Rory, but they'd have to be really old by now, right?

[miles2go]

I kind of liked the jet-propelled flying cybermen.  Very much liked the honor given to the Brig ( portrait on the wall and the salute from the Doctor.)

Missy was okay, but I liked her better when she was a mystery.

Everything else sucked.  Ugh.

[ganesh]

Well, when Amy and Rory were sent back by the weeping angels, their deaths registered on the headstone and Eleven looked at that, so he knew they were already dead at that time. I think Amy lived to nearly 90. So that means the dead version of Amy tipped off UNIT, which is creepy to me. 

 

I think the Jon Simm version of the Master was used better, even though the Missy Master was quite entertaining. She just wasn't around enough.

 

This whole season boiled down to me as a lot of good stories on paper, but they didn't pull it off. I don't know what they were going for with Twelve and Clara, but it wasn't  working. I don't think they sold Clara/Danny well enough either. And it's not on the actors. 

 

It's fine to have shows where people don't get along, because real life is like that. But if you're the Doctor and you're not getting along, you can tell your companion that she should go live her life. One would expect that you would take on a companion to travel with you through space and time, that actually wanted to, not who complained about it so much. 

 

I can speculate that Twelve was really messed up from this regen because it's basically the first after actually thinking he was really dying this time, but I just didn't see that onscreen.

 

At the beginning of this season, I thought this was going to be a Doctor who tried to make up for what he's done, since, you know, he literally said that onscreen, but I didn't see much of that. They even let him off the hook at the end. 

 

I'm actually glad that Clara got to walk away. No one's just up and left since Martha. 

[Llywela]

Gah. Tawdry sensationalism with delusions of grandeur. That's my short review.

 

Did they ever answer why Missy manipulated things to get Clara and the Doctor together?  I hated this episode so much I couldn't even bring myself to rewind that section.

According to Missy, she thought it would take a control freak to get the Doctor to investigate the afterlife - typical inane answer to a long-running mystery, because it answers nothing. Did Missy also kill Danny to push Clara over the edge? And control freak Clara may be, but that could never be a guarantee that the Doctor would feel moved to investigate, on her behalf, something he has never attempted after any of his own bereavements. Ridiculous. Moffat clutching at straws because he invented the mystery without having an actual resolution to it in mind, I'd say.

 

Someone asked a very disturbing question, would Amy and Rory have become Cybermen? 

Probably, along with every other former companion who has died off-screen. Like I said, this episode was horrifically awful. I will never forgive Moffat for doing that to the Brigadier - and after such a lovely tribute a couple of seasons ago. It wasn't respectful. It was horrific.

 

Turning the long-dead into Cybermen doesn't even make any sense. Cybermen upgrade the living into what they believe are better versions of themselves. They don't ask for permission - that entire contrivance was purely designed to service the Clara-Danny story, and made no sense whatsoever for the Cybermen. And, if they already have the mind anyway, they don't really need the rotting bones to sit inside the suit - I would presume, in fact, that when they convert the living they employ some kind of anti-decomposition agent to avoid any rotting, since I can't imagine putrefaction would do any good to the inner workings!

 

And as for raindrops somehow growing into fully-formed cyber-suits, I don't even know where to begin with how absurd that is. There's a reason cyber-conversation involves a chamber and mechanics. You can't grow those suits out of thin air.

 

God, this show doesn't have any internal logic any more. Everything is twisted out of shape to suit the requirements of plot, always the easy road. It's harder to tell a story when you have to obey the rules of your show's internal logic, to be sure, but that story is always, always better for it, because it has integrity, something Steven Moffat has apparently never heard of.

 

It's the other way around -- the Nethersphere is what is in the hard drive.  It's not "real".  It's a virtual reality for the harvested minds of the dead.  Now, the question of what happened to it -- that's still legitimate.  Did they ALL get transferred or were some left?  Is the actual object still there, even if the program isn't running anymore?  And how much organic matter did the cyber-seeds need anyway?  How rotted could the original corpse be before it couldn't be converted/upgraded? 

Good questions all - shame this story has no interest in answering them. I guess UNIT would probably gain entry to St Paul's at last and strip out whatever they could find for safekeeping. It seemed like they were ALL being transferred out. Funny how Danny managed to find his way back to his original body, though, when it had been made clear that the captured minds were being inserted into whatever corpses they could find, at random.

 

Those were some pretty old graves the Cybermen were crawling out of, there'd be nothing left in there but bones.

 

Also, do these writers know that mankind has not always been interred in modern graveyards?

 

Did this episode just imply that the Master created the Afterlife and The Doctor via Danny Pink just destroyed it and everyone and their consciousness forever?

No, the Master didn't create the afterlife. S/he stole the consciousness of dying people and prevented nature from taking its course, whatever would normally happen to those souls. The consciousnesses would not naturally hang around forever, you know. Danny's action allowed those stolen minds to find the rest that had been denied them.

 

Now, I can believe that the Master was able to steal consciousnesses of dying individuals, because that's established Time Lord tech from as far back as the mid-70s, but I cannot believe that that tech could be employed on as grand a scale as implied. Sure, Missy has a TARDIS, but it can still only be in one place at a time.

 

I assumed that Clara knew about Jenny from when she jumped into the timestream.  The bit about four deceased wives interested me more, although dismissing his children and grandchildren as "presumed dead" makes me think it's unlikely we'll ever get a Susan appearance out of Moffat.  And if Clara's truly leaving, we probably won't get a William Russell appearance either.  Glad we got to see him in "Adventure in Space and Time".

Except that the show has made it clear that Clara has no memory of jumping into the timestream. Maybe she got her hands on the Doctor's collection of 500 year diaries or something.

 

Four wives. That's the original wife who was Susan's grandmother. Then there's River Song, Elizabeth I and didn't the 11th Doctor say something about marrying Marilyn Monroe? So, four wives and three of them come from the Moffat era. Says it all. And people accuse the Davies era of being a soap opera - it's got nothing on Moffat.

 

Also, Kate reckoned her father would have done exactly the same thing, ie drug the Doctor into submission. No, Kate, he wouldn't. Never did, never would. Steven Moffat might know the trivia of the classic show inside out, but it has long been apparent that he doesn't actually know or understand its characters as people in the slightest. Because he has no real interest in characterisation, or in what makes people tick. To him, characters are just props he can move around to service his plots. It's why this entire season has felt so manipulative and contrived - every detail of characterisation was drive by plot requirement, and as a result the characters never felt like real people.

 

Awful, awful stuff.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Llywela

[Llywela]

Did anyone else catch that quick line where the Doctor asks the leader of UNIT how they knew what was going on, and the woman said "we got a tip from a woman with a Scottish accent." I thought that was perhaps a nod to Amy and Rory, but they'd have to be really old by now, right?

No, it was Missy - that was confirmed on-screen, she wanted an audience. Amy and Rory are long dead.

[RachelKM]

They killed Osgood.  Fuck Moffat and his weird Mary Poppins fetish/phobia.

 

However, I fucking love Danny Pink and will miss him. I will also miss Clara to an extent, but I'm glad her leaving was a choice.  It was sort of lovely watching Clara and the Doctor lie to each other to convince the other they were happy. And, finally, I appreciate the salute to Lethbridge-Stewart. 

[ketose]

As much as I love the Brigadier, bringing him back as a CYBERMAN is downright ghoulish. Not only that, but we're supposed to believe that every death in human history was stored in the Nether Region?

 

Plus, the Cybermen are now the Borg. By Star Trek: Voyager, the Borg used nanotechnology to turn people into drones on the spot.

[Eozostrodon]

FWIW I watched the Doctor Who Extra and Moff pretty much stated flat out that the Master can/will come back, which makes me happy.

Do whatever you like to Clara but don't you dare kill my Master!

[Occasional Hope]

Yes, the plot was completely illogical and the science rubbish - but it kind of always is on Dr Who, really.

 

I found the last part very moving with the various self-sacrifices.  (And yes, I got the WWI resonance, but I agree they could have been less subtle there.)

[HauntedBathroom]

I loved it. This episode is the cherry on top of the cake of season 8, which (Robot of Sherwood aside) has been wonderful. Not always easy, but constantly entertaining and making you think about the characters. And of course the Brig would kill the Master, he must have been wanting to do it since Terror of the Autons, and he wasn't going to let the trifling detail of cyber-conversion get in the way.

 

Absolutely loved it, but I'm done with Clara. She's had her arc, and now she can go and raise Owson Pinks grandad. The Father Christmas scene implies we'll be seeing her again at Christmas, but after that, I think it's time we moved on.

[fandomfatale]

I was hoping for some sort of explanation about why Clara had her adventures with the Doctor all mapped out on post-its in her room from the beginning of 8x11. That scene and her phone call with Danny was so strange. 

 

Santa seemed to imply pretty heavily that we'd see Clara again, I thought. She must be pregnant, I can't see Moffat not delivering on that hint. But Clara won't be traveling with the Doctor with an infant. I've been consistently annoyed with Clara each episode this season but I like her dynamic with Twelve so I'm not ready for a new companion yet. 

 

I can't believe they killed Danny. Massive kudos from me for that - I'm both impressed and relieved, because Danny/Clara was horrible - but that doesn't make up for the hot mess that was the cybermen threat. Cyber pollen? Everyone who has died? Really?

[cardigirl]

Well, I am disappointed in this finale.  I thought the first half was so good leading up to what I thought was going to be a clever way of tying the season together but that was too much to hope for.

 

First, the sound was messed up.  I kept turning up the volume on my tv to try and hear the dialogue but couldn't.  That's just bad production values or something.

 

Second, no reference back to Clara's post it notes, no reason her Gran suddenly showed up (other than to be there for her when her love died)  no real reason why Clara was the ONE that the Master chose.  So unless that's going to be part of the Christmas special, I'm disappointed it all led to really nothing.  I get that the reveal that MISI was the one that gave Clara the number to call the Doctor was a big reveal of some sort, but WHY?  Why Clara?  I think MISI  (Mobile Intelligent Systems Interface) could have gotten the Doctor to the point she did without Clara.  Just.  Disappointed.

 

Third, Danny Pink died.  I get that his character was never fully fleshed out, but I am sad he's gone.  I liked Clara and Danny together, I liked that he challenged the Doctor. I guess I'm the only one who did, and I really was hoping for a reset of some kind.  Oh well.

 

The rest, just blah.  UNIT was blah, I'm sad that Osgood was killed (and cruelly too, for a kid's show) and kind of hope it was the Zygon replacement, but I doubt it.

 

The only part I really liked was at the end when the Doctor went to MISI's coordinates and saw nothing and broke down in the Tardis.  That was real to me.

 

Here's hoping the Christmas special is decent.  Although the only one of recent memory that I truly liked was the WWII one, and again, I'm in the minority on that one, I think.  But hey, Santa! 

[Guest]

I actually enjoyed this finale a lot, despite some cringe-worthy moments.

 

- I though Michelle Gomez's performance as the Master was stellar. She was giving it just the right amount of flourishes and playfulness and she even made the accent part and parcel of the character. The way she played the Master really reflected the age-long relationship these two Time Lords have and I hope to see her again on the show. Something I wasn't quite clear on, was the way she exited her scene. Clara wanted to kill her as revenge. But why would the pain extractor kill the Master? And why does the Doctor kill her in the end? He hadn't found out that she had given him fake co-ordinates yet, had he? It just jarred with the sentiment of the scene and I think I must have missed something there. 

 

- I am so SO glad that Danny remained dead. I didn't hate his character but if he were to be resurrected it would have undone all the other painful and emotional death we've had on this show. Because of this, I wasn't too keen on the dead boy coming back. He seemed to be singled out as the one human Danny killed (which I find very hard to believe anyway) but bringing him back seemed to symbolise a purification of Danny's conscience. Too moralistic for my liking. 

 

I was hoping for some sort of explanation about why Clara had her adventures with the Doctor all mapped out on post-its in her room from the beginning of 8x11. That scene and her phone call with Danny was so strange.

 

 

 

I agree. They referred to it again when they said it was the last time either of them said I love you, but it remained very vague. I wonder if she was going to tell him that she was pregnant. That would explain why she was nervous in that scene (perhaps using the adventures to remind her that she could do it?) and why she kept saying 'Danny and I' during her last scene with the Doctor. Danny is her unborn child not her dead lover. If this is Clara's exit, I will be very happy with it. Adventures are fantastic but sometimes real life steps in and it's a good direction for Clara.

 

Very much liked the honor given to the Brig ( portrait on the wall and the salute from the Doctor.)

 

 

I cringed a bit when the blonde lady wasn't dead but that salute was totally worth it - it shattered my heart into a million pieces </3

[Suzysite]

 

And why does the Doctor kill her in the end?

The Doctor didn't get a chance to kill her.  She transported out before he could.  This was subtle, but the blue light as she went out was the same as her transporter beam. 

[Guest]

The Doctor didn't get a chance to kill her.  She transported out before he could.  This was subtle, but the blue light as she went out was the same as her transporter beam.

 

 

Oh, I see. But what his motivation for killing her in the first place? He seemed to be taking the army gift really well before that.

[Primetimer]

The season closes on Doctor, Clara, and Danny: three characters with nine different personas.

Read the story

[NeenerNeener]

 

Oh, I see. But what his motivation for killing her in the first place?

 

 

Because Clara was going to kill her if the Doctor didn't, and he didn't want that on Clara's conscience. Then it looked like the Brigadier Cyberman took a shot at her so the Doctor didn't have to do it either, but she teleported away.

 

ETA: noticed on second viewing...they dressed Clara in a lovely, but loose, sweater for the final scene, so that might be a hint that she was going to say she couldn't travel with the Doctor anymore because she's going to be a mother. Then again... maybe it was just a pretty sweater.

Edited November 9, 2014 by NeenerNeener

[tv-talk]

Not that I care at this point, but is the premise that the Master went back along Earth's time stream and captured the consciousness of LITERALLY every single human that had ever died? Didnt the Doctor ask "How long have humans believed in an afterlife?" as the answer to when the Master (er, Mistress) began her plot? That is just so absurd even by Doctor Who standards, setting up the premise that EVERY person who ever lived (except those lucky cremated Hindis I guess) was trapped in that Nethersphere from the day they died til the day Danny blew up the cyerb army? Just terrible. Even worse is that despite being fully converted, somehow Danny could manage to remain Danny...and so could the Brigadier. Hmm, so it's just those 2 people out of every human that ever lived who hathe emotional/mental fortitude to somehow remain themselves after being converted. Terrible.

Having the Brigadier be a Cyberman who salutes and then flied off like he's Iron Man was one low points in show's long history.

By the end all I was thinking was "Ok, Danny is really going to die here right? Oh no here comes the sonic, they are going to fix him....ok, good he is dead. Oh shit he's back, oh good it's the random Iraqi kid instead" followed by "Ok, Clara is staying on Earth right? They're both lying and are really separating right? Oh wait she looks doey eyed again, maybe she's coming back....oh good, he left without her."

So I guess in that sense I was satisfied with the episode at least.

Missy was fantastic. Killing Osgood was brutal and absolutely necessary to reestablish who she is and how she behaves. Great scene. The whole series should have been more Missy-centric, would have been much better.

[Toaster Strudel]

What a fitting end to Dr Who's relationship with his abuser, Clara.  May she never return.  She was a villain, and it really didn't work for me.  Imagine Captain Kirk having to deal with Khan as his sidekick every episode.

[Ringthane]

What a fitting end to Dr Who's relationship with his abuser, Clara.  May she never return.  She was a villain, and it really didn't work for me.  Imagine Captain Kirk having to deal with Khan as his sidekick every episode.

 

More like Charlie X than Khan.  Or maybe Miri.  Comparing Clara to Khan gives Clara waaaaay too much credit.

[Llywela]

Oh, I see. But what his motivation for killing her in the first place? He seemed to be taking the army gift really well before that.

He wasn't happy about the gift of an army. He was grateful that being brought to that point helped him understand himself better. But he didn't take the gift of an army well - he was horrified by it, as should we all be.

 

As for anyone's motivation for wanting to kill Missy/the Master - where to begin? Punishment for the bloody swathe of destruction s/he has wrought throughout time and space (does anyone remember that time the Master brought about the destruction of a full third of the universe?). Prevention of future crimes, which we all know are just waiting to happen. Defence - shoot first before s/he can rally and attack again. Vengeance.

[tv echo]

I thought this was one of the worst episodes - if not the worst episode - of the season.  From the opening credits - where Jenna Coleman's name appeared first and in larger type than Peter Capaldi's name - to the ending scene with Santa Claus, it was just a horrible, disjointed mess.

 

This Doctor is not the Doctor I want to see.  He came across as frightened, insecure and incompetent.  He doesn't save the day - Clara and really Danny Pink are the ones to save Earth.  The Doctor was oddly cowed by Clara.  When the world was going to hell in a handbasket, the Doctor was focused on finding Clara.  When he managed to escape in the TARDIS, he goes straight to Clara and lets Clara boss him around.  When it comes time to shut down Danny's emotions, the Doctor falters and Clara is the one who must step up and use the screwdriver.  Also,  there was no way that the Doctor was going to assume control of the Cybermen army so there was no suspense.  Even if he wanted the power, he wouldn't want the responsibility or the bother.

 

Clara was just insufferable in this episode.  Her prolonged hugging of Danny didn't convey heartbroken sorrow to me.  Before he lifted his mask and revealed himself, he first had to hear Clara go on and on about how the Doctor is her best friend, etc.  Did Clara really love Danny?  Hard to believe so.  Then that ending 'good-bye' scene with Clara and the Doctor was also supposed to be heartbreaking, but it was just annoying because it seemed to go on forever.  Plus it continued the sensitivity over the Doctor's age with his "old man" self-reference, making him just sound insecure and jealous.  Yes, they're both keeping secrets from each other.  Who cares?  However, the scene where the Doctor goes to Missy's coordinates and doesn't find Gallifrey is probably the one good scene in this episode.  But I hate how Clara is such a special snowflake companion - even worse than Rose Tyler.  If we knew for sure that this would be the last of Clara, maybe this episode would be worth it.  But Santa Claus' comment that she's not alright implies that there's more to the Clara story, so most likely she'll return.

 

I realize the season-long theme has been the Doctor's identity - "Am I a good man?"  blah, blah, blah.  But his conclusion in this episode that he's just an "idiot with a box and a screwdriver" makes no sense.  Yes, he can sometimes be an idiot, but he can also be all of those other things.  Being an idiot is not the Doctor's defining characteristic.  Far from it. 

 

More fails:
- Bringing back the Master as an OTT Mary Poppins.  I cringed at the overacting.  Despite her killing Osgood, I found Missy more silly than frightening.
- The illogic of UNIT's protocol where they first handcuff and drug the Doctor, and then make him World President.
- The magical osmosis where the dead's unconsciousness transforms rotting corpses into metal men and where the Cybermen's exploding bodies somehow completely disperse the cloud of downloading consciousness.
- Killing off Osgood, but keeping Clara alive.  Epic fail.

[marceline]

Oh, my God!  They killed Osgood!  You bastards!

 

Seriously, why couldn't Osgood be the next Companion?

 

When The Doctor whispered "all of time and space" just out of Osgood's earshot, I thought that maybe this would all be worth it and she would become the next Companion. So obviously the show had punish me for my optimism by killing her off a few minutes later.

 

 

- The illogic of UNIT's protocol where they first handcuff and drug the Doctor, and then make him World President.

Yeah. WTF was that? Was there supposed to be some kind of a corollary between that and Missy giving him an Army? People kept trying to force the Doctor into positions of extreme power and authority. (Hint: that's not how power works.) When the truth is he's already insanely powerful he just doesn't want the authority, until he does ("I'm the Doctor.", "This world is under my protection." etc....) but that's a whole other bigger mess.

Edited November 9, 2014 by marceline

[Llywela]

When The Doctor whispered "all of time and space" just out of Osgoods earshot, I thought that maybe this would all be worth it and she would become the next Companion. So obviously the show had punish me for my optimism by killing her off a few minutes later.

I watched with my boyfriend who immediately thought the same thing. But I knew better. For starters, the show really isn't that good at keeping secrets! If she was going to be a new companion, no way we wouldn't have heard about it by now. So the offer could only mean one thing: she was toast. That's another thing I'm angry about.

[darkestboy]

That was brilliant, except for the Brigadier cameo which I felt didn't work that much but other than that, brilliant. Glad Kate survived/was rescued by her father.

Osgood's death surprised me but much as I liked Danny, I'm glad his death actually stuck this series, even if returning the boy he killed to the living was not something I expected.

The Master has some brilliantly bonkers moments in this episode and her motives for the Cyber army were believable enough, even if she should've realised the Doctor wouldn't fall for it.

The Doctor banging the console after realising the Master had tricked him about Gallifrey was a sublime moment too actually.

Clara nearly killed the Master but didn't get the chance. I hope we do see Gomez's Master again. I say we will.

The Cybermen actually didn't do all that much in the episode but this still was the best use of them in Moffat's era for now.

The Doctor and Clara lying to each other about Gallifrey and Danny though, not good.

Nick Frost as Santa Claus though, eww. 9/10

[Lokiberry]

What a fitting end to Dr Who's relationship with his abuser, Clara.  May she never return.  She was a villain, and it really didn't work for me.  Imagine Captain Kirk having to deal with Khan as his sidekick every episode.

Well, at least there would be some sexual tension. . .

Edited November 9, 2014 by Lokiberry

[elle]

I came to post that 25 years ago on this date, November 9. 1989, the Berlin wall fell.  I felt it was a nice congruence of dates that the anniversary falls on Remembrance Sunday this year.

[tv-talk]

yeah I cant help but think that Moffat intentionally tries to piss people off by having Clara be in charge to the extent he actually bashes us over the head with her saying "I'm the Doctor" and getting the lead in the opening credits. People called him a misogynist so he reacts by emasculating the Doctor and making the entire season basically about Clara...yet doesnt have the acumen to pull it off in even a remotely satisfying way.

 

I mean looking back on it...what is so special about Clara? Yeah, yeah impossible girl but she doesnt even know that so what does it matter? What is so great about her? That she is a good liar? I'm serious, isnt that basically all she does- lie and try to manipulate people?

 

Show went completely off the rails. This is one of those seasons that i only kept watching because I'm a lifelong Whovian. It's bad when that happens because it means if next season is similar I'll stop watching after about 3 episodes.

[Ringthane]

You know, the whole thing with saluting the Brigadier could have been done with a quiet scene, right at the end, where the Doctor visits the Brigadier's grave and salutes.  Same idea, only much more meaningful and tasteful.

 

And one more thing - Nicholas Courtney died in 2011.  The series came back in 2005.  That's six years they could have brought him back, and this is what we get? 

[HouseofBeck]

They missed an excellent opportunity to have Cybermats come out of pet cemeteries.

So we just watched it, as we're no longer "Must watch first run of show when it airs!" people, despite my continued love for and appreciation of Capaldi in this role. I'm still digesting the emotional onslaught and find myself agreeing with both the "this was terrible!" and "this wasn't bad!" reviews above.

Clara's unexplained and seemingly precognitive call at the beginning of part 1 aside, one of my burning questions is, why weren't all the new Cybermen hatched with their inhibitor circuit turned off, and also not under control of the Mastress? It's a bit too convenient for just the Brig and Danny to retain their emotions and control. I would like to think others around the world had the same capability. Oh, excuse me, love isn't an emotion. *eyeroll*

I did really like Clara continuing to cling to CyberDanny, something about that really got to me.

But anyone whom I loved that much who sent a kid through a one-time only portal, I'd be so pissed off, I'd find a way through and knock that jackhole flat.

[tv-talk]

You know, the whole thing with saluting the Brigadier could have been done with a quiet scene, right at the end, where the Doctor visits the Brigadier's grave and salutes.

 

 

Is the Brigadier now a superhero of sorts? Protect the Earth now that he's a Cyberman but still his old self? Guess he flew off to return to Unit and reclaim his position right?

 

I mean really, that was just awful.

[starri]

 

And one more thing - Nicholas Courtney died in 2011.  The series came back in 2005.  That's six years they could have brought him back, and this is what we get?

He did appear on Sarah Jane Adventures.

[stopeslite]

I can't decide whether I hate it so much because it was so bad, or because I'm so soured on the whole thing under Moffat now. Everyone ever dead on the earth is now a cyberman, including Amy and Rory, but the only two who love someone so much that they can resist the programming are Danny and The Brigadier. Or who didn't have their programming switched on properly in the first place. Or something. 

 

Most of what bothered me has already been covered, so I'll stick with complaining about Danny sending that kid back. Yes, it was sweet. Yes, I understand how he was atoning by doing it, and how it totally fits with his personality, etc. But even for Doctor Who, there was zero explanation. Where did his body come from? The kid has been dead for years, there's no body left to use. How is Clara supposed to explain how the kid is suddenly alive, but not any older? What are the chances of anyone finding this kid's family? What are the chances that his family wasn't killed in the same attack, or any subsequent attack in the several years since? How is there any chance of this kid not having a totally messed up life at this point? I just saw it as another example of something that seems good in the moment, but would really work out awful for everyone involved. 

[ketose]

By the end all I was thinking was "Ok, Danny is really going to die here right? Oh no here comes the sonic, they are going to fix him....ok, good he is dead. Oh shit he's back, oh good it's the random Iraqi kid instead"

I feel bad about saying this, but it would have been really satisfying if that kid Danny saved murdered Clara in her sleep.

 

And why did Nick Frost show up at the end of what was basically a zombie movie? He should have been running over Cybermen with a car or something.

[alrightokay]

I realize the season-long theme has been the Doctor's identity - "Am I a good man?"  blah, blah, blah.  But his conclusion in this episode that he's just an "idiot with a box and a screwdriver" makes no sense.  Yes, he can sometimes be an idiot, but he can also be all of those other things.  Being an idiot is not the Doctor's defining characteristic.  Far from it. 

 

I don't think that he's defining himself completely by calling himself an "idiot."  He also says that he's "passing through, trying to help" and he's "learning."  If he's truly an idiot, he wouldn't learn.  I think your point about him being "all of those other things" is true--but he doesn't want any of those things (good man, bad man, hero, president) to become a static label.  He can be all of those things, at different moments, but not always.  I thought it was interesting that Kate Stewart introduces herself as "Divorcée, mother of two, keen gardener, outstanding bridge player.  Also chief scientific officer, Unified Intelligence Taskforce - who currently have you surrounded.” Like the Doctor, she isn't just "one thing"--she's many things at once, and she wants to be understood that way.  Maybe Twelve is understanding that about himself, and hopefully this self-acceptance will free him now, in S9, to be more open with others and to have more fun.

[cambridgeguy]

 

Most of what bothered me has already been covered, so I'll stick with complaining about Danny sending that kid back. Yes, it was sweet. Yes, I understand how he was atoning by doing it, and how it totally fits with his personality, etc. But even for Doctor Who, there was zero explanation. Where did his body come from? The kid has been dead for years, there's no body left to use. How is Clara supposed to explain how the kid is suddenly alive, but not any older? What are the chances of anyone finding this kid's family? What are the chances that his family wasn't killed in the same attack, or any subsequent attack in the several years since? How is there any chance of this kid not having a totally messed up life at this point? I just saw it as another example of something that seems good in the moment, but would really work out awful for everyone involved.

Where did his body come from?  The same place that all of the cybermen armor came from (isn't that going to be tons of metal?), which is the same place that all of those trees came from (and disappeared to).  As for that kid being messed up, he'll fit right in at coal hill school with the rest of the special children.

 

This did nicely illustrate the difference between Ten and Twelve.  Ten - dissolves into a puddle of tears when the Master "dies".  Twelve - thanks for vaporizing the bastard for me, old buddy.  However, in the back of his mind he probably knows that this isn't the end of it.

[Fat Elvis 007]

"I can't decide whether I hate it so much because it was so bad, or because I'm so soured on the whole thing under Moffat now. Everyone ever dead on the earth is now a cyberman, including Amy and Rory, but the only two who love someone so much that they can resist the programming are Danny and The Brigadier. Or who didn't have their programming switched on properly in the first place. Or something. "

This is why the Cybermen are boring villains. They're completely unemotional and inhuman, until the writers decide they're not. That's not real emotional conflict. A more interesting conflict would have been if Missy was able to turn someone like Danny, or hell, one of the Blues from "Into the Dalek," into a genuine threat to the Doctor through emotional manipulation, not actual mind control. I thought that's where the whole "Heaven" storyline was leading. What's the point of keeping everyone's consciousness alive if they're just going to be subsumed into the collective hive mind of the Cybermen? The entire storyline seems self-defeating to me.

I feel like this show needs more complex villains--I know the companion role is supposedly sacred, but I think a companion-gone-bad storyline could be interesting if done well, and Clara could have fit that role. But Moffat couldn't even bear for River to be bad for more than one episode, and he doesn't believe in consequences, so I have absolutely no faith he could handle a storyline like that. 

Edited November 9, 2014 by Fat Elvis 007

[NCChic]

Moffat has become Aaron Sorkin, in the sense that he's an egomaniac who trolls the Internet and puts something in the episode from their trolling (Aaron & his beef with TWOP posters & Moffat with the posters about Clara being in charge aka The Doctor). Except Moffat doesn't have the talent that Aaron does (or did during his West Wing days).

[NeenerNeener]

I know my interpretations of a scene are almost never what the writers were trying to say, but it occurred to me that the scene in Dark Water where Clara has post-it notes all over could be her way of trying to figure out just when Danny got her pregnant and what she's been exposed to since then. If she knows all about Amy & Rory and the effect of time travel on a human fetus she might be wondering about giving birth to a little Time Lord herself.

 

If she's not pregnant then who knows what the post-its are all about.

Edited November 9, 2014 by NeenerNeener

[Guest Accused Dingo]

First off i ususally like Moffatt episodes. I find them thrilling and fun and useually the best in the series. if you do not like Moffatt you will always complain about his episodes regardless of the quality or entertainment value. That being said....this episode was emotionally manipulative and silly and not in a good way. 

 

There were a few fleeting moments I did enjoy.  Like always I did like Moffat's humor.  What can I say I enjoy the man.  I also enjoyed Clara confusing the Cybermen by telling them she was the Doctor by rattling of facts about the Doctor.  Hell for one brief and wonderful moment I genuinely loved Clara.    I also liked the ending where the Doctor finally realized he wasn't a good man,. but not a bad man either.  He is what he has always been an idiot with flying box.  

 

Mostly though I loved Missy and wouldn't mind seeing her again.  

Edited November 9, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[Llywela]

 if you do not like Moffatt you will always complain about his episodes regardless of the quality or entertainment value.

That's not actually true. For example, I don't like his style as showrunner and have disliked a number of the episodes he has written, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating his stronger episodes. I judge based on what I see on-screen and how it comes across to me on an episode by episode basis. I don't go into any episode expecting to dislike it based on who wrote it - I go into every episode hoping to love it, in fact. Please give those with critical opinions credit for basing their opinions on what they see on-screen rather than blind prejudice.

 

I disliked this episode enormously based on its content, not because Steven Moffat wrote it.

[Jamoche]

I was trying to decide why I liked Moffet as single-ep writer but not as showrunner, and I think the problem is that he sets everything up to lead to one clever scene, which works in a single episode but not across a whole season. Here he's aiming for "Clara bets everything on a massive bluff where she pretends to be the Doctor, calls herself a horrible liar, and - gasp! - the confirmation comes from someone who has just discovered how much she's been lying to him".

 

If that had been the 42-minute mark in a single episode, it probably would have come across as clever - with 12 episodes as setup, no. The risks/rewards of the scene aren't even all that great - she has to not get shot by the Cybermen. Countless companions have managed to not get shot by Cybermen. Any spur of the moment bluffing would probably work. It's so inconsequential that I kept thinking there had to be more to the scene - we're going to go back to "Cybermen think maybe kinda she might possibly be...", right? She's going to drop some bit of Doctorish history that the Impossible Girl picked up but we don't know? She's inside their base - she's going to do something other than not get shot? There's some payoff?

[benteen]

The Doctor didn't get a chance to kill her.  She transported out before he could.  This was subtle, but the blue light as she went out was the same as her transporter beam. 

 

She was zapped by CyberBrig but I'm sure it'll be established later on that she transported away.

[starri]

 

First off i ususally like Moffatt episodes. I find them thrilling and fun and useually the best in the series. if you do not like Moffatt you will always complain about his episodes regardless of the quality or entertainment value

The Moffatt-authored "Blink" remains my favorite of the RTD-era series.  I just think he desperately needs someone to reign in his impulses as a show-runner, either by having a producer over him, or by having a partner with equal authority as with Sherlock.

[Kalliste]

I was hoping for some sort of explanation about why Clara had her adventures with the Doctor all mapped out on post-its in her room from the beginning of 8x11. That scene and her phone call with Danny was so strange. 

 

I didn't think it needed explaining, to me it was Clara laying out all the lies she had told Danny because she was finally coming clean. She started with how much she loved him though and she'll never love another man (because he's the one for her) and then didn't get to say the rest. That was my interpretation anyway.

[tankgirl73]

"If we knew for sure that this would be the last of Clara, maybe this episode would be worth it. But Santa Claus' comment that she's not alright implies that there's more to the Clara story, so most likely she'll return."

What did Santa say exactly? I'm thinking I missed something. I recall him saying something like "Oh, we can't let it end this way... what do you want more than anything else?" There was some babble in the middle but I just heard it as random feel-good Santa-babble. Did he say something about Clara? I just thought he was talking about needing to cheer up the Doctor.

[Eozostrodon]

Kate Stewart was brilliant in her few small scenes. I'd actually love her to be a new Companion.

[starri]

Really, it's Kate, Vastra, Jenny, and Strax that kept me from completely hating  this season.

[NeenerNeener]

 

Did he say something about Clara? I just thought he was talking about needing to cheer up the Doctor.

He said something like 'No, she's not alright, and neither are you!" I'm assuming "she" meant Clara.

[stopeslite]

Here's what he said:

Hello? Doctor! You know it can't end like that. We need to get this sorted, and quickly. She's not all right, you know, and neither are you. I'm coming in. There you are, I knew I'd get around to you eventually. Now, stop gawping, and tell me: what do you want for Christmas.

I missed it entirely, because we turned it off once it seemed clear it was over. (harumph)