S08.E11: Dark Water

[BizBuzz]

In the mysterious world of the Nethersphere, plans have been drawn. Old friends and old enemies maneuver around The Doctor, and an impossible choice is looming over him.

 

[BizBuzz]

I have just been informed the the time lock/open feature is a little buggy, so I have removed it from this thread, and unlocked it.  I won't be around tomorrow when it airs, so handling today.

 

Please don't use this thread until the episode airs.  Thank you.

[Lokiberry]

Well, that was a long time coming. The Master kissing the Doctor, that is. The rest, meh. Oh look, the exoskeleton in the dark water that we can't see is a Cyberman. Whoever would have guessed? Oh look, Rory's dead again, er I mean, Danny's dead! (Also, Danny Pink? I knew Rory Williams. Rory Williams was a friend of mine. You, sir, are no Rory Williams). Oh look, Clara's a self-centered psycho, who demands that the Doctor and the entire universe conform to her needs, or she'll just have a fit!   Well, that's certainly a suprise, and not at all like the kind, supportive friend of the Doctor I've watched all season. /bitter

 

Can someone tell me if these are the last few episodes of The Clara Oswald Show? I've really enjoyed the glimpses I've had of the Doctor, and am hoping he gets his own spin off next year.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Lokiberry

[Kalliste]

One word: Ugh.

 

I wonder if Moffatt thinks he's super smart and no one guessed that Missy was the master..

 

Boring. I'm really hoping to see some Doctor Who next season instead of The Clara Oswald show feat. The Doctor.

[MartinKSmith]

I know a lot of people, particularly on here, have had mixed to negative feelings toward this series and particularly toward Clara. 

 

However, I have enjoyed it. There have, obviously, been better episodes than others, but overall, I'd probably say this is my favourite series since the first series with Matt Smith. For me, it brought new life into the show. Yes, there has been a strong focus on Clara, but any more so than Rose? Than Amy? I don't feel that's the case. 

 

I love Capaldi in the role, but I also feel that if he'd been pushed to the front too much, there would have been a bigger (than there already has been) backlash about the Doctor that's not young, not 'hot', not... nice. By focussing on Clara, it's allowed the Doctor to become his own character, a character different from the Doctors of new. I hope that next series there is less focus on the companion role, but only because it will allow the Doctor who has already got a good grip of the role and, hopefully, found a place in peoples hearts to shine through.

 

I had seen the trailer, I knew the Cybermen were going to be in this finale, but I had only seen the 'next time...' trailer and I'd only seen it once. I rarely watch live TV anymore, so I didn't see promotion on BBC and I purposefully didn't seek out trailers online. So, while in the back of my mind, I knew the Cybermen were involved, the reveal of them in the tanks was actually a reveal. It was only then that everything clicked into place and scenes from the trailer came to the forefront again.

 

There was also something slightly chilling (in a kids TV show way) when the doors closed and revealed the mirrored logo - the Cyberman eyes. There was that element of "it was all right in front of you, the whole time!"

 

When Missy was first introduced, in the first episode, I had guessed then that she might be the Master. I wasn't definite on it, but it had crossed my mind. So, when the reveal came, it wasn't a huge shock, but at the same time I still genuinely enjoyed the reveal and everything that came with it. 

 

I also liked the little references to The Thick of It, with the psychic paper saying he worked for the government and having swear words on it. 

 

Something I didn't notice while watching (though I may go back and watch again) was that one of the keys to the TARDIS was hidden in a copy of the Time Traveller's Wife. The keys to the Time Traveller (The Doctor)'s Wife (The TARDIS), hidden inside a copy of the Time Traveller's Wife. Neat.

[catrox14]

Really the Master? Sigh. I would have paid good money to see John Simm make out with David Tennant.

[elle]

Was there a "next time" preview?  All I saw after the Missy's reveal and the Cybermen was an annoying ad for the Graham Norton Show.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Now THAT episode I really enjoyed.   There was not a single moment of it that bored or annoyed me.  I enjoyed Clara and the volcano scene and how the Doctor got around it.  I enjoyed what happened after because I liked his reasoning for helping Clara.   

 

The scenes in 3W were confusing at first because I wasn't sure what to make of it.  Thank you Doctor Who for ruining death for me.  However I loved the scenes with Missi (How does she spell it again?).  When she kissed the Doctor I laughed,  The sight gag itself was hilarious.  I liked the scenes with Danny and I usually don't.  

 

I liked the final reveal the Missi is actually the Master (Well the Mistress now).  And that she has gotten all the dead and are making them into Cybermen.  Cybermen from Cyberspace.  I thought that was clever.   

 

In all honestly...I would have liked the season a while lot more if it has been this good from the start.  

Edited November 2, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[foreverevolving]

Really the Master? Sigh. I would have paid good money to see John Simm make out with David Tennant.

 

my reaction exactly!

there is a boatload of time Lords and Ladies to chose from. must it be the master again!!? BORING!! I had hope Moffatt would be clever and make Missy not be the Master- because it was so obvious i had hoped i would not be.

Or why not bring in a completely new one?! this is the man who created River Song.

 

ugh! absolutely, ugh.

I'm not a big Dr. Who fan, i watch it for fun so it wouldn't break my heart to say bye bye to it.

Also weren't we supposed to get any info on the appearance of the Doctor and him looking like you know Capaldi last two roles in the Whoverse? i'm gonna put my money now that it was Missy who somehow send a sub-conscious message to the dr as he regenerated and that is why he looks the way he does.

or whatever.

[Lantern7]

Anybody going to have trouble sleeping tonight? I might.

 

Damn, Missy is hardcore. Even if it turns out that she isn't the Master (which I think is a possibility), she's still in a league of her own. I'm skeptical, though . . . it just seems too easy to go "Missy = Mistress = Master." I'm hoping Mofatt has an ace up his sleeve. If not, I'm sure we'll be getting his resignation as showrunner. One can hope, right?

 

And am I wrong in thinking Clara to be a horrible person for trying to fuck with the Doctor? I know, the psychic paper can hold the profanity, but "fuck" is the right word IMO. She was going to destroy the TARDIS keys if the Doctor wasn't going to genie up and grant her wish. I know people would do anything to get their loved ones back, but damn . . . Clara might be the worst companion ever.

 

I will say that the Nethersphere/Promised Land is a neat concept, at least in thought. Chilling as hell, but neat. Of course, the glass-half-empty side of me thinks that it'll fall flat next week. Capaldi isn't the problem . .  . he's found his groove as the Doctor. If Mofatt goes for whatever reason, Capaldi should stay. Jenna Coleman? Meh . . .  I think we've had enough of Clara.

 

elle . . . yeah, I didn't get a teaser for next week as well. We should keep our eyes peeled for one.

[alrightokay]

I liked this overall, although the Missy/Master reveal felt a little too obvious.  I loved Capaldi all through this episode, especially during the key-throwing scene and when he said the line, "Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?"

Questions:

• Why does Clara have all of those post-its on her shelves--why does she have to keep track of the events from her recent adventures?  Does it have something to do with Missy having "chosen" her (was she reporting on the events to Missy)?  Why does she tell Danny that he's the last person she'll say "I love you" to?  
• Right before the Doctor puts her hands into the Tardis-telepathic interface, Clara says, "I don't deserve a friend like you."  Does this mean she knows she's doing Missy's bidding by bringing him to the Nethersphere?

 

I really hope there's a scene between Twelve and Seb next week....

[ketose]

Cybermen? Cybermen? Seriously? The whole season was co-opted for the damn Cybermen?

 

First Season - Bad Wolf = Daleks

Second Season = Daleks + Cybermen fighting

Season 3 = The Master

Season 4 - Doctor Donna = Daleks

Season 5 - Pandorica = The Doctor's enemies (Daleks, Cybermen) vs the Universe

Season 6 - The Silence (a NEW enemy for once)

Season 7 - The Great Intelligence (and apparently, The Master) 

Season 8 - The Master and Cybermen

 

Cybermen are 1 episode stories at most. Hell, Daleks only warrant 2. Jesus, couldn't they have made the Time Lady The Rani or maybe Romana. THAT would have been interesting.

 

This is becoming the same stories and the same villains over and over. There's more plot development on The Vampire Diaries.

[futurechemist]

The good:  I liked the Doctor in this episode.  His line near the beginning about how Clara's betrayal wouldn't make him stop wanting to help struck me as a very "Doctor-y" thing to say.   And the Cyberman reveal was done well.  I also liked how "boring" the whole afterlife was, down to the paperwork.

 

The bad: Clara's tantrum at the beginning.   The fact that the episode was basically 45 minutes of exposition and then a reveal.  The fact I still don't understand the Master's plan.  Corpses in the ground that have been decaying for who knows how long have been upgraded into Cybermen?  So they upload people's consciousness as they die, and then put it into a Cyberman shell which happens to be in the grave?  (Since Missy said the Cybermen were rising all over the world because the dead outnumbered the living).  And the fact that even non-humans (cyborg from Deep Breath) and people not on Earth (solider from Into the Dalek) wound up in the Nethersphere.

 

Also, as someone who is not good at predicting storylines, and needs people to explain the plot of every Bond movie, I'm proud that I predicted Missy =  Mistress = Master way back in August.

Edited November 2, 2014 by futurechemist

[elle]

 it just seems too easy to go "Missy = Mistress = Master." I'm hoping Mofatt has an ace up his sleeve. If not, I'm sure we'll be getting his resignation as showrunner. One can hope, right?

Right.  One can hope.  Or rather wish?  I wish you are right!

 

 

 

Clara might be the worst companion ever.

Or has become that.  I do agree with the sentiment.  I found myself wondering what Amy would have done if she had been able to remember Rory after he disappeared.  (probably be even more annoyingly aggressive toward Eleven)

 

I did find the scene with Danny and the small boy to be probably Danny's best scene this season.  I would have like to explore that bit in more detail and the subject of PTSD than Clara's temper tantrum or the drawn out explanation of "dark water".  I still think that there is a missed opportunity to show how the Doctor and Danny have more in common than they may think.

 

 

yeah, I didn't get a teaser for next week as well. We should keep our eyes peeled for one.

I guess I'll have to put "Top Gear" on my to be watched list for the next week.

Edited November 2, 2014 by elle

[tankgirl73]

I liked this, quite a lot.  Some unpredicted twists -- I thought the volcano thing was real.  I was thinking it was dumb -- she'd be way too hot to survive, the Doctor would never allow those keys to all be lost like that, it was too over-the-top melodramatic... and then he was all like "oh come on" and none of it was real.  Bazinga!

 

So of all the speculations about Missy, my personal favourites were The Master and The Rani.  As soon as they revealed that she was a Time Lady, I got excited -- I was actually kind of hoping for The Rani.  But being the Master is still pretty cool, because for once I felt like I was 'in on it', having been part of the conversation that got it right in speculations.  S/he is just as unhinged and diabolical as ever, and just as bizarrely and bromantically connected with the Doctor.  They have a Thing and there's no escaping it.  It's totally the Master's way to call the Doctor his/her boyfriend.  

 

Oh hey -- back with Tennant/Simm there's a gag where someone asks if the Master still has a beard, or something, and the Doctor says 'no... well, he's got a WIFE...' so he is totally saying that the wife is the beard.  So the gender-bending nature of the Master had been established already at that point.  ;)

 

I really wish that the promos had NOT shown the Cybermen.  Because I totally figured out that they were in the tanks from the moment the guy showed that the dark water only shows organic matter.  "Oh well that means that all manner of things could be hidden in those tanks... so... aha, the 'exoskeletons' are the Cyberman shells.  Gotcha."  

 

That being said, it was nice confirmation when the water levels dropped.  And the doors closing showing the cyber eyes -- I literally JUMPED, as said above it was a 'right there in front of you the whole time' moment.  

 

But I wish I hadn't known about the Cybermen, because I think it would have been more fun to spend more time guessing and trying to figure out what else might be hiding in the tanks.  And besides, they only just *barely* figured in this episode -- it was the big finale scene and it was all shown in the preview.  :/  

 

Was it just me or did they never answer the question of what 3W stands for?  The guy said that it was the three questions, I think -- and that it would be revealed in the white noise translation recording.  But all they said was "please don't cremate me".  The dead are still aware -- okay, so where's the 3W?  

 

I was guessing all along that it might have to do with www -- world wide web.  And that would fit with the eventual reveal that people's minds were being telepathically uploaded at the moment of death.  But they never actually said that, so...

 

Okay, on to the Nethersphere itself.  Thankfully, not a real Heaven.  I was getting a bit worried that they were going in that direction, when the Doctor started talking about wondering if there actually might be such a place and if there was then the Tardis would know how to get there, etc etc.  All the weird contradictions about it from the earlier episodes make sense now -- why it appeared differently to different people, for instance, and how their bodies are intact and present even while maimed in 'real life'.  I gather that even Seb isn't really 'real'.  Very Matrix-y.

 

So -- in the previous bit pieces, we saw Missy herself welcoming people to Heaven/whatever, or just walking around.  Inside the Nethersphere.  So.... does she upload herself once in awhile to go visit people?

 

As soon as the flashback showed Danny shooting into a building I thought "ooooh, he killed a kid."  I even paused the show to tell my daughter -- warn her that this was probably what was about to happen (she's 7).  

 

They mentioned something about a researcher who discovered this thing with the white noise -- what was his name, again?  Is that going to be significant?  Apparently it means it wasn't the Master's own research that originated the company.

 

Lantern7 that's an interesting idea about it not really being the Master.  But I think that it must be established that Timelords have a 'sense' about recognizing each other.  They'd have to, what with the regenerations.  Otherwise anyone could pretend to be anyone at any time.  The Doctor must have had a suspicion from the beginning but refused to believe/accept it.

 

Why does Clara have all of those post-its on her shelves--why does she have to keep track of the events from her recent adventures?  Does it have something to do with Missy having "chosen" her (was she reporting on the events to Missy)?  Why does she tell Danny that he's the last person she'll say "I love you" to?

 

 

The post-its -- I think it was just to remind herself of everything she needed to come clean to Danny about.  But I was also wondering about the 'last person' thing.  Because she didn't seem to just be saying "I'll never love anyone else", but literally 'nobody else will ever again have the opportunity to hear me say I love you because something terrible is about to happen to me'.  

 

I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the idea that Missy sent her, etc -- she seemed pretty unaware of the whole Nethersphere thing.

 

Right before the Doctor puts her hands into the Tardis-telepathic interface, Clara says, "I don't deserve a friend like you."  Does this mean she knows she's doing Missy's bidding by bringing him to the Nethersphere?

 

 

No -- she doesn't deserve his friendship because she betrayed him by throwing away the Tardis keys.  I think it's important that she did repent, once she realized what she had done -- so the Doctor saved her from herself, really, by allowing the scene to play out without any actual damage.  She would never have been able to live with herself if she had actually gone through with it.  

[Lantern7]

tankgirl73 . . . I think 3W = "Three Words" = "Don't Cremate Me." Chilling as hell, wouldn't you say?

 

ETA: Torchwood? That only lasted two seasons. "Miracle Day" never happened. Neither did "Children of Earth."

[ketose]

This episode got off to a great start. Then the Doctor clarified what he meant by "Go to Hell."

tankgirl73 . . . I think 3W = "Three Words" = "Don't Cremate Me." Chilling as hell, wouldn't you say?

I found it especially chilling because it reminded me of Season 4 Torchwood. S4 Torchwood = always bad.

[miles2go]

I actually rather liked this until the cybermen showed up.  <groan>  Why did it have to be cybermen?

 

So Scary Poppins is really the Master -- a lot of people already called that one, so not a huge surprise, but I was actually hoping it was someone different.

 

Really can't judge this one until I've seen part two, so won't say anymore.

[tankgirl73]

The previews had shown Missy talking about 'my Clara' and 'I chose well'.  We've been presuming that Missy was the 'woman in the shop' who gave Clara the Tardis phone number -- but how would she know the number herself?  The Master would, of course s/he would.  I presume that these scenes will be in part 2, next week.

 

But clearly, Missy has been tampering with events all along, for the ultimate purpose of bring the Doctor to her.  If Missy was responsible for the Doctor's first meeting with Clara, then the Master is responsible for saving The Doctor from the Great Intelligence!  Clara was just Clara until she got that number from the shop, then she jumped into the Doctor's timeline and created Victoria Clara and Oswin and all the other splinter selves, which from the Doctor's point of view (and ours) were in the past, but they're actually forward projections from that Ur-Clara.  So while it might seem like a coincidence for Missy to happen to pick the girl that the Doctor had already met and been seeking -- in fact, it's not a coincidence at all, it's what created those former meetings in the first place.  

 

Timey wimey.

 

So what about future time traveller dude Pink?  Should we assume that they do manage to rescue Danny?  Or -- hey, maybe Clara is already pregnant but doesn't know it yet.  Or maybe that's what that cell phone call was going to be about -- she wanted to come clean about all the Doctor stuff before telling him the news.  But then why that "last person to hear me say I love you" thing, because duh her children would hear her say it...  Anyway, if it turns out she's pregnant, that would be a good reason for her to stop travelling with the Doctor.  After all, look at what happened with the last Tardis-baby...

 

(I know that River was *conceived* in the Tardis, in the time vortex, and that's what made the difference, but still you know the Doctor would make a wry observation about his luck with companions having babies...)

[Guest Accused Dingo]

The Cybermen are like the Borg on Star Trek.  One or two and they are easy to take care of.  But the genius of using the consciousness of the dead is that  like missy said (I am paraphrasing) The strategic weakness of the human race is that the dead outnumber the living.  Plus you have the added "Picard Factor" of Danny Pink being one of the dead who may or may not end up as a Cyberman.      You may say "who cares?" if you hate Danny Pink or Clara for that matter but story wise it adds depth and makes it harder for both the Doctor and Clara to do what needs to be done.     The Cybermen aren't season long enemies; usually just an episode or two but like the Borg they are a constant and powerful enemy when their is enough of them

 

Plus I think the major enemy in all this is Missy anyway.   Welcome to her coming out party.    I for one hope she sticks around for awhile.  Its been a good long time since the Doctor had a worthy enemy.  

Edited November 2, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[tankgirl73]

tankgirl73 . . . I think 3W = "Three Words" = "Don't Cremate Me." Chilling as hell, wouldn't you say?

 

But didn't they also say "PLEASE don't cremate me?"  4 words.  Maybe I'll rewatch...

[elle]

The previews had shown Missy talking about 'my Clara' and 'I chose well'.  We've been presuming that Missy was the 'woman in the shop' who gave Clara the Tardis phone number -- but how would she know the number herself?  The Master would, of course s/he would.  I presume that these scenes will be in part 2, next week.

A different question is how did Missy/The Master get back?  The Master went back to Gallifrey with Rassilon and the other Time Lords in "The End of Time".

 

(oh just great - the wikipedia page for The Master already has a comment about "also know as Missy in the female incarnation")

 

The Cybermen are like the Borg on Star Trek. 

Does that make The Master = Q?  By the end of the various TV series both got defanged by the writers.

 

It suddenly occurred to me that they are not the Borg, they are like Cylons!  Wasn't this whole uploading consciousness after death thing done in the Battlestar Galactica retcon "Caprica"?

Edited November 2, 2014 by elle

[ohjoy]

A different question is how did Missy/The Master get back? The Master went back to Gallifrey with Rassilon and the other Time Lords in "The End of Time".

This had better be THE reason that Missy is The Master -- rather than the Rani or anyone else -- so they can finally address this dropped "Gallifrey returns" storyline from last Christmas.

Edited November 2, 2014 by RandomMe

[Ripley68]

If I liked Clara, or felt any connection between her and Mr. Pink, this would have been a much better episode.

[Ringthane]

So let me make sure of something - the Steven Moffatt who is now executive producer is the same Steven Moffatt who wrote "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead", correct?  The story where the Doctor discovered that he can, in fact, open the TARDIS door by snapping his fingers? 

 

So why is the first few minutes of this story all about destroying the TARDIS keys, which would make it so that the Doctor could never get in the TARDIS again?

 

Come on, Steven.  It's not like those episodes are lost forever - they're on freaking Netflix, for Pete's sake.  Take a couple hours off and watch your own show.

 

And why would there only be seven keys?  And why would the Doctor not be carrying a key on him?  He always has before.  Now he suddenly hides them all over the TARDIS?  And part-time companion Clara knows where they are because... 

 

It just seems like there's going to be a bunch of payoff in the second part, and I'm not sure there is.  Moffatt's become the Rick Berman of Doctor Who - overstayed his welcome and just throwing whatever ideas and stories he's got up on screen, no matter if they're good, or make sense, or work in the Doctor Who universe...

[elle]

This had better be THE reason that Missy is The Master -- rather than the Rani or anyone else -- so they can finally address this dropped "Gallifrey returns" storyline from last Christmas.

Probably Moffatt has forgotten about that storyline along with a number of reviewers.  I have yet to read an article about this season that even mentions that "lost planet".

 

It just seems like there's going to be a bunch of payoff in the second part, and I'm not sure there is.  Moffatt's become the Rick Berman of Doctor Who - overstayed his welcome and just throwing whatever ideas and stories he's got up on screen, no matter if they're good, or make sense, or work in the Doctor Who universe...

Another Star Trek reference, and not in a good way!

[random chance]

The Cybermen. The slow, dull, stainless steel cybermen. Ha! At the end, when a handful of them were clanking down the stairs while the Doctor shouted "run! run!" I was thinking, "or just walk slightly faster!" Or hell, duck into any building with a revolving door.

But that's not the part I hated. I don't mind a non-scary villain, because I don't actually like being scared. The Big Bad could be a menacing fleet of Talky Toasters for all I care, I just enjoy exploring the universe (back when they still did that). What I hated was the concept behind it all. To the point where I think I'll probably just read about Part II on here, if I even do that, because it reaaalllly creeped me out.

[AudienceofOne]

One word: Ugh.

 

 

I'd go more for the guttural groaning ERGH myself. And yet I could have handled most of it if any of it made any goddamn sense. Which it really didn't. I can't wait for Part 2 where we plough on with the plot ignoring just how dumb the whole thing really is.

[BK1978]

Cybermen? Cybermen? Seriously? The whole season was co-opted for the damn Cybermen?

 

First Season - Bad Wolf = Daleks

Second Season = Daleks + Cybermen fighting

Season 3 = The Master

Season 4 - Doctor Donna = Daleks

Season 5 - Pandorica = The Doctor's enemies (Daleks, Cybermen) vs the Universe

Season 6 - The Silence (a NEW enemy for once)

Season 7 - The Great Intelligence (and apparently, The Master) 

Season 8 - The Master and Cybermen

 

Cybermen are 1 episode stories at most. Hell, Daleks only warrant 2. Jesus, couldn't they have made the Time Lady The Rani or maybe Romana. THAT would have been interesting.

 

This is becoming the same stories and the same villains over and over. There's more plot development on The Vampire Diaries.

 

I think it was for shock purposes, you know seeing the Master becoming a woman.  Maybe it is their way of trying to see how it flies with the fans in terms of backlash.  Maybe this will lead to the next incarnation of the Doctor being a woman.

 

I thought for sure Missy was going to be either the Rani or Romana.  I was leaning towards Romana up until the big reveal because Romana was left in E-Space (Well she chose to stay there but the writers could easily chalk that up to being a mentally unstable incarnation.) and K-9 often called her mistress.  I was disappointed that she ended up being the Master, to me there have only been two good Masters Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley.  As much as I like Eric Roberts and John Simm they never felt like the Master to me.

[ketose]

The Cybermen. The slow, dull, stainless steel cybermen. Ha! At the end, when a handful of them were clanking down the stairs while the Doctor shouted "run! run!" I was thinking, "or just walk slightly faster!" Or hell, duck into any building with a revolving door.

But that's not the part I hated. I don't mind a non-scary villain, because I don't actually like being scared. The Big Bad could be a menacing fleet of Talky Toasters for all I care, I just enjoy exploring the universe (back when they still did that). What I hated was the concept behind it all. To the point where I think I'll probably just read about Part II on here, if I even do that, because it reaaalllly creeped me out.

Talky Toasters. If only Grant Naylor were running Doctor Who.

[Kalliste]

So let me make sure of something - the Steven Moffatt who is now executive producer is the same Steven Moffatt who wrote "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead", correct?  The story where the Doctor discovered that he can, in fact, open the TARDIS door by snapping his fingers? 

 

So why is the first few minutes of this story all about destroying the TARDIS keys, which would make it so that the Doctor could never get in the TARDIS again?

 

Come on, Steven.  It's not like those episodes are lost forever - they're on freaking Netflix, for Pete's sake.  Take a couple hours off and watch your own show.

 

And why would there only be seven keys?  And why would the Doctor not be carrying a key on him?  He always has before.  Now he suddenly hides them all over the TARDIS?  And part-time companion Clara knows where they are because... 

 

I was thinking the same thing, who cares about keys he can open it with a click of his fingers... Also I'm pretty sure there was on in his coat jacket which Clara stole also.

[Mr. Simpatico]

Probably Moffatt has forgotten about that storyline along with a number of reviewers.  I have yet to read an article about this season that even mentions that "lost planet".

Remember when that was the big thing during the 50th? Bringing back Gallifrey and giving the Doctor purpose in his life of finding it? Yeah...apparently Moffat think the Twelve doesn't care.

 

But hey, his home planet doesn't matter because he can have his part-time companion totally destroy his trust and betray him in a way no other companion (that I can recall) ever did and he's not only totally forgiving of that (even though she said she'd do it again) but will go literally "to hell" to her help. Gallifreyans who?

 

This episode reeked of Moffat being too clever (or thinking him so) all so he can have the reveal that Missy is "the Master" (and yet another crazy one - thanks NuWho!). I never bought the Rani idea (not only because Moffat dismissed the character publicly and said no one knew she was) because the Rani was obsessed with science, not the Doctor (the Rani would never refer to the Doctor in cozy terms) so who else could it have been? Either another woman from the Doctor's past we never heard of before (which is basically par for the course for Moffat) or the Master. Then who would get the biggest response? So not completely a surprise.

 

I will say I now think Clara is despicable and can't wait for her to go. Which is weird because I do like Jenna Coleman a lot. Ironically since Moffat has said she's the main character of Season 8 and given a lot of character development (which hasn't presented her well). I have the feeling Jenna C. is going to end up like a lot of classic companions and we'll look back on her tenure and say "what a waste of an actor" on an underwritten role.

 

And although I haven't minded Danny, I felt nothing when he "died" or his soldier subplot with the kid he apparently killed in combat (yes, we get you -or your team - have issues with the military, Moffat despite the character Doctor being associated with them in one form or other across regenerations with no problems). So however it plays out (either Clara will die or Danny will be resurrected with no hard questions asked because that's how Season 8 has gone), I don't care anymore.

 

Capaldi though has some great reactions this entire episode. You can see he's trying so hard but the writing is doing him no favors.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Mr. Simpatico

[MadMouse]

I feel split on the episode. Coleman and Capaldi continue to knock it out of the park, no matter the material they elevate it. And when they don't have dreadful scripts like tonight they shine even more. The problem is I don't care about Clara, Danny and their relationship. They both could die and it would mean nothing to me. Its not actors but the characters are so bland I can't get invested in their fate.

 

The same goes for the Master as a woman. I love the idea but it was so telegraphed from her first appearance the reveal didn't have that "holy shit" reveal like Professor Yana. They better have her use the name Master now since her identity is out there instead of the Mistress nonsense. Man or woman she's still the Master. Would the Doctor refer to himself as the Healer if he switched genders? 

 

I would have tons of respect for Moffat if the Master is creating an army to fight the returning Time Lords. And she calls out the Doctor for saving them since they both know how horrible they were. Throw in a Simm regeneration flashback with Dalton and that would be one hell of a way to end the series.

[AudienceofOne]

They better have her use the name Master now since her identity is out there instead of the Mistress nonsense. Man or woman she's still the Master. Would the Doctor refer to himself as the Healer if he switched genders?

 

 

With Moffatt's gender issues?? No, he really believes that changing sex means you have to have a different name and flirt with everything and make out with your nemesis.

 

But ignoring that, in an entire season of disturbing pseudoscience subtext, we now get the need to retain the body after death. Because that's not an early Christian ascension-of-the-body concept at all. Add to that everyone constantly babbling about the afterlife as if that's a thing the Doctor would ever believe in let alone try to "find" and this just nicely wraps a season of superstition and pseudoscience in what is supposed to be a science fiction show

[wayne67]

Was it just me or after the line about being left behind was anyone else hoping that it was going to be River upset that he left her behind as a virtual memory on a computer when he could have her uploaded at any point.

 

Does anyone think he tried getting in touch with her via the Tardis telepathic conduit?

 

Cybermen are loose upon Earth... This feels familiar. I wonder if they'll be sucked through a rift hole again...

 

I hope now that the Master? has shown up he'll remember he put Gallifrey somewhere in the multiverse and go looking for it. I've known people who have spent more energy finding their tv remote control than this guy has in finding his home planet.

 

Clara's blackmailed the Doctor with keys to a machine that is half sentient and opens when he clicks his fingers... which they showed like 3 or 4 episodes ago back when I watched it. I only watched this episode because I heard it was going to feature Missy and I wanted to see how butchered that would become.

 

YAWN

Edited November 2, 2014 by wayne67

[tankgirl73]

But ignoring that, in an entire season of disturbing pseudoscience subtext, we now get the need to retain the body after death.

 

 

Except that we don't.  There are no bodies, it's just their 'minds' uploaded into that big sphere thing (which has precedence with the spoonheads and GI) and they get a personalized experience of "Heaven".  

[companionenvy]

Well, I liked it quite a bit. This was probably the first episode where I really liked twelve, and I'm impressed that the show was wiling to go there with Clara. Was what she tried to do horrible? Yes. But it was, I think, believably horrible, and because of the motivation behind it, I also think it is still believable that the Doctor forgave her (and that the show clearly still expects her to be sympathetic). 

 

Clara's got what seems to be a natural tendency toward positions of authority, and she's travelling with a Doctor who is in many ways more hands-off than his predecessors. Through a combination of character (hers and Twelve's) and circumstance, she's been in a position to take control a lot more than other companions have, so I can see her getting more of a power complex than the others. Also, this Doctor is a lot more brusque and less outwardly sympathetic than the others, and more pragmatic. He doesn't make teary apologies or grand moral declarations, and he doesn't do hugs. This, I think, has two consequences, as far as Clara is concerned. First while she cares about him deeply, it isn't the same kind of relationship that companions had with Ten and Eleven, and thus it is easier to betray him -- and not to trust him to do everything possible to save Danny, if it was possible, before attempting to blackmail him. Second, she isn't as infused with a sense of the ethical responsibilities of the Time Travel as she might otherwise have been, since Twelve himself sometimes seems to be more of an adventurer in and less of a "champion"  of time than his previous incarnations were. As we've seen in recent weeks, that doesn't mean he doesn't have a strong moral core, but it isn't quite as overt, and not something he always communicates terribly clearly to Clara.

 

I think in Twelve's "you betrayed me but I don't care" speech, we're also seeing a different manifestation of his sometimes cold pragmatism. There is no doubt in my mind that Nine would have been done with Clara after that, and I'm pretty sure Ten would have as well, because they would have taken it so personally. But this Doctor gets it - in fact, she's doing, in some ways, what he has taught her to do: do what needs to be done, whatever the cost. Granted, her motivation is far from dispassionate, but the idea that anything is justifiable if the end is good is very much a Twelve kind of philosophy. 

 

As for the rest - I kind of hope Danny doesn't get resurrected, but expect him to, given Moffat's track record. I do think the episode would have worked better if Danny were a more compelling character in his own right. Even having Danny's death as a tag at the end of last week's episode would have been better in terms of pacing.

 

I am confused about Clara's initial discussion with Danny, since "you're the last person I'll say 'I love you to" does sound rather ominous. It may just be misdirection, but given hints and previews, I wouldn't be shocked if there were something else going on. I will be VERY angry if it turns out that the Mistress has been manipulating Clara in a way that deprives her of agency and retroactively "explains" some of her less savory actions. 

 

Really excited for next week!

[Llywela]

Was there a "next time" preview?  All I saw after the Missy's reveal and the Cybermen was an annoying ad for the Graham Norton Show.

They don't do a next time preview for two-parters.

 

You know, I feel like an idiot. I stood in the street and watched scenes being filmed with Cybermen in them and I knew it was for the 2-part finale and I still managed to forget and be surprised when they showed up (I don't watch promos). I was glad to see them, though – they made this more of a real Doctor Who episode than it had been up to that point and I finally began to feel invested. I appreciated having the full body horror of Cybermen restored in this episode, as well – it isn't always remembered. And I loved seeing those doors slam shut revealing the logo, the Cyber eyes, which we'd been seeing all through the episode but hadn't made sense of till that moment – which, talk about corporate branding! Missy's idea, no doubt. I don't think the big plot is going to hold together when it all plays out – I can see too many holes and logic gaps already – but I'll reserve judgement on that score till we've seen part 2.

 

I found the location spotting rather distracting, right from the first scene, when Danny got knocked down coming out of the north end of Alexandra Gardens by the National Assembly office building, a stone's throw from my office, but then his memorial was set up at the east side of the park, opposite the main University Building. And then 3W was in the museum, just around the corner, so dead Danny didn't have far to go…. Like I said: distracting.

 

It was just as well the Cybermen came along when they did, really because up till then the episode had just made me angry, because death used to mean something on this show, it was used sparingly (well, for main characters anyway) and it had impact, significance, because it couldn't be undone. It mattered. You didn't get a do-over and it was acknowledged that you couldn't. Death was final. Now, though, these last few years, it's become a joke – characters die, they get brought back, they decide it's possible to visit the afterlife and pull someone out. Death means nothing. So why should I care?

 

And I still hate Clara. Even when she's grieving she's still arrogant and entitled and self-important and believes she is somehow 'owed' something, that she can hold the Doctor to ransom and make him achieve the impossible just because she wants it. That's villain behaviour. Am I supposed to empathise with her grief for making her deranged? Because I didn't. Because she was like that before Danny died, if he really did die, if it isn't just another trick. Worst companion ever – I can usually find something to appreciate even about the poorly written ones, but I really don't like Clara. I suppose that's no secret!

 

And I can't feel bad about Danny because I didn't know him very well and didn't much like what I did know, because neither he nor Clara ever seem to react to anything like real people, and because all the development of their relationship was off-screen so I have no investment in it.

 

I did appreciate that both Clara and the Doctor acknowledged her appalling behaviour, that she admitted what she'd done had been unforgiveable – but I still don't think the show ever should have gone there in the first place. Especially since it then enabled and indulged her horrible entitlement by having the Doctor decide to attempt the impossible anyway - searching for the afterlife? Seriously? Is that really a place this show should ever even think about going? I was so relieved when the episode swung away from the mystical afterlife and into the realms of stolen consciousness and upgraded corpses!

 

Although I really think it's all a trap and has been all along. Clara, Danny, all of it, a trap to get the Doctor to the Nethersphere – just a shame it all had to be contrived so horribly to achieve it, because that kind of contrivance always twists characters out of shape, and it did here. Plus…it seems a hell of a lot of effort to go to, just to see the Doctor. There must be easier ways. Then again, that kind of overly convoluted plan is right up the Master's street, and he does have form when it comes to using the Doctor's companions against him.

 

Everyone and their dog predicted that Missy = Mistress = Master back when the character was first announced, so that was a lot of an anti-climax - I was disappointed that it wasn't something cleverer, more unique. This plot is right up the Master's street, though. How many times has he colluded with an alien race only for them to turn around and betray him? Will s/he ever learn? But having him regenerate into a female body and then use it to snog the Doctor…I can hear the fandom outcry already, on multiple levels.

 

I think one of the things that's bothered me about the Moffat era is how fannish it is. I can go through episode after episode picking out details that are straight out of fanfiction, but the trouble is that what's okay in fanfic really isn't always okay in the actual TV show and the problem with having fans at the helm is that they lose their sense of perspective and can't judge where that boundary lies.

 

There is another twist coming with Clara, for sure. She was being too weird in the opening scene, and all that 'I have to be with Danny Pink' wasn't just romantic nonsense, it sounded almost like she was programmed. She has never felt like a real person to me, so I can easily believe she's programmed at this point!

 

I've really disliked a lot of this season, at a structural and narrative level. I've not enjoyed the characterisation and I've not enjoyed how much of the season has been shaped by Clara's story arc, which has felt at times like a live action version of a children's primer, written in crayon: "Clara thinks the Doctor is bad. Bad Doctor. Clara is acting like the Doctor. The Doctor thinks this is bad. Bad Clara. Bad Doctor." Seriously - it's been so one-note, so superficial, no shading or nuance at all. It hasn't felt like Doctor Who. And it's reminded me of a problem I've noticed with soap operas like Coronation Street these days. Everything is shaped around the big moments - the watercooler scenes, the plot-moving events, the drama, the sensation. In soap, that usually revolves around the breakdown of someone's relationship. But the problem is that if we only get to see the couple when they are in crisis, if we don't get to see the quieter, happier, more stable moments that lie behind those big events, it is hard to care because we have no investment in the relationship, we haven't watched it grow, all that happened off-screen while we weren't looking. Same problem with Doctor Who lately - we only see the Big Dramaz moments, we don't get to see the smaller, more intimate stuff that actually grows relationships. I've never been invested in Clara's relationship with the Doctor because it happened off-screen, they were strangers and then they were best buds. I haven't invested in Clara's relationship with Danny because it happened off-screen, they went on a first date and then they were in love, presto chango.

 

Mostly, I've just felt like this season is placing its emphasis in all the wrong places, it feels so imbalanced, and I can see signs of really strong stories and characters tucked away in there straining to be freed, but they are kept shackled by the demands of seasonal Plot. Everything is in service to that seasonal arc and the characters can't breathe.

 

I am really enjoying Capaldi's performance, though. While the spotlight is firmly on unpleasant Clara, he has spent the last few episodes quietly imbuing his Doctor with all kinds of nuance and subtlety that isn't in the script. I just wish his Doctor could be freed from all this nonsense to really become himself, unconstrained by the requirements of someone else's story.

 

tankgirl73 . . . I think 3W = "Three Words" = "Don't Cremate Me." Chilling as hell, wouldn't you say?

But those aren't the real three words, are they? Because once we know that the consciousnesses have been uploaded and the bodies are being converted into Cybermen, the illusion of 3W falls away - none of the sales talk the Doctor and Clara were given was real, even if Dr Whatshisname believed it. The 3W has to stand for something else.

 

And why would there only be seven keys?  And why would the Doctor not be carrying a key on him?  He always has before.  Now he suddenly hides them all over the TARDIS?  And part-time companion Clara knows where they are because... 

He did have a key on him. Clara took it out of his pocket, we saw her doing it. It makes sense to me that there'd be extra keys stashed all over the place, just in case, and probably the 7 were just the 7 that Clara knows about - there may be more, but they aren't much good when he's on the other side of a locked door. It all makes sense until you remember the finger clicking thing, which imo should never have been introduced anyway.

 

I thought for sure Missy was going to be either the Rani or Romana.  I was leaning towards Romana up until the big reveal because Romana was left in E-Space (Well she chose to stay there but the writers could easily chalk that up to being a mentally unstable incarnation.) and K-9 often called her mistress.  I was disappointed that she ended up being the Master, to me there have only been two good Masters Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley.  As much as I like Eric Roberts and John Simm they never felt like the Master to me.

There was nothing mentally unstable about Romana's decision to remain in e-space - she made a choice to stay because the people there needed someone, a time traveller. She found a purpose and committed herself to it. And she wasn't trapped - the people there had a way of travelling back and forth into our n-space, so she could return at any time (and did, according to Big Finish - she went on to become President of Gallifrey).

 

No, the mentally unstable incarnation would have been this one, if it had been Romana, because Romana was fabulous and Missy is evil! This was never going to be Romana.

 

I'd have believed the Rani, though.

 

I never bought the Rani idea (not only because Moffat dismissed the character publicly and said no one knew she was)

See, this line of reasoning never makes sense to me - this idea that a character can't be brought back because no one knows who they are. I mean, the new Who audience didn't know who the Master was until they met him. They didn't know what Daleks or Cybermen or Silurians or Ice Warriors were until they met them. The audience in general - both classic and modern - never knows who any new villain is until they appear on-screen and are explained. That's how storytelling works! Every character introduced into a show has to be explained, and if that character is an old adversary being brought back, the audience might not be familiar with them but the writers have a rich well of backstory to draw on - far more meaningful than creating a one-off character like Tasha Lem and claiming she has a history with the Doctor that she doesn't! That's the thing that gets me. Moffat's Who has brought in so many brand new characters and claimed they have history with the Doctor, spent time explaining that made-up history - how is that better than bringing in a past character who actually does have history with him and using that to build a story?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Llywela

[Which Tyler]

3W are the 3 questions. Presumably the 3 questions the recently deceased ask

Surely, they've got to be:

Where am I?

What's happening to me?

Why's this happening to me?

So the who, what, where, why, when without the time travel question and without the show title question.

[Occasional Hope]

I think the problem with Danny Pink is the actor.  I actually like the conception of the character and even the writing, but the actor is so limp and wet and boring he just doesn't come across as interesting.

 

I liked the dark water/cyberman reveal.

[HauntedBathroom]

That was great! It had a wonderfully Doctorish moment when Twelve says that Claras betrayl wouldn't stop him helping her, and a great Cyber reveal. Plus, the Master's such a boring character, the appeal comes purely from how the actor plays the role. And Michelle is playing it wonderfully, unlike Ainley or Simms.

[cambridgeguy]

 

They better have her use the name Master now since her identity is out there instead of the Mistress nonsense. Man or woman she's still the Master. Would the Doctor refer to himself as the Healer if he switched genders?

Doctor is absolutely and unequivocally a gender neutral title.  Master/mistress has significantly more leeway.  Moffat has his issues but having the Master going by Mistress is very low on the list of soap box worthy material.

 

I do hope that Danny stays dead.  His death (unlike Rory's) had nothing to do with the Doctor and sometimes good people die for stupid, tragic, and completely ordinary reasons.  Clara being in love with him doesn't make him any more or less worthy of a second chance compared to all of the other good people who die in car accidents, etc.

[Eozostrodon]

The entire volcano scene was supposed to all be just a dream, so I think it was supposed to not quite be realistic or make sense. Because dreams aren't like reality and don't use real world logic.

 

A different question is how did Missy/The Master get back?  The Master went back to Gallifrey with Rassilon and the other Time Lords in "The End of Time".

No, his fate was left intentionally open. We never saw if he got sucked in with the others or if he escaped. The Doctor lost consciousness at that point, and it seems more likely he ran out.

[Toaster Strudel]

I was so happy when the Doctor told Clarrrrah to Go To Hell.  At last!

[Primetimer]

The Doctor's oldest enemy is now quite different. Or is...she?

Read the story

[Llywela]

I do hope that Danny stays dead.  His death (unlike Rory's) had nothing to do with the Doctor and sometimes good people die for stupid, tragic, and completely ordinary reasons.  Clara being in love with him doesn't make him any more or less worthy of a second chance compared to all of the other good people who die in car accidents, etc.

Exactly.

 

The entire volcano scene was supposed to all be just a dream, so I think it was supposed to not quite be realistic or make sense. Because dreams aren't like reality and don't use real world logic.

Well, yes - but also no. The Doctor used the dream patch thingy (conveniently invented for this story, I believe - I don't remember seeing them before, although Clara made them sound everyday) to let Clara's intentions play out in a safe manner - she believed it was real, so what we saw was absolutely what she intended and had planned well in advance of reaching the TARDIS. It was the reason she phoned the Doctor, not to seek comfort from a friend but because she felt he owed her something. He didn't. And he owed her even less after she lied, stole and manipulated from the moment she stepped into his home, for purposes of extortion, for her own ends. The scenario might not have been real, but Clara thought it was. The Doctor allowed it to play out to see what she would do, to see how far she would go - I think they were both shocked to realise the answer to that question.

 

Gah, because I've had this problem all season - on paper the storyline and dynamics sound so much more interesting than they play out on-screen. It's the execution of the concepts that isn't working, somehow, and that's a stylistic problem. It's the style I've struggled with throughout the Moffat era, a superficiality that fails to sell the storylines.

[tv echo]

To my surprise, this was the first episode since "Time Heist" that I liked this season - and I even liked Peter Capaldi's Doctor for a change, esp. when he was figuratively slapping Clara to get her head straight and concentrate on the mission.

 

The premise was intriguing and disturbing.  I didn't even mind Danny Pink.  The Missy reveal was a bit obvious but interesting.  For the first time this season, I'm looking forward to next week's episode.

[ketose]

But ignoring that, in an entire season of disturbing pseudoscience subtext, we now get the need to retain the body after death. Because that's not an early Christian ascension-of-the-body concept at all. Add to that everyone constantly babbling about the afterlife as if that's a thing the Doctor would ever believe in let alone try to "find" and this just nicely wraps a season of superstition and pseudoscience in what is supposed to be a science fiction show

I found that anti-cremation stuff to be highly offensive, until they revealed it's just a ruse to keep the body intact for Cybermanning.

 

Was it just me or after the line about being left behind was anyone else hoping that it was going to be River upset that he left her behind as a virtual memory on a computer when he could have her uploaded at any point.

 

Does anyone think he tried getting in touch with her via the Tardis telepathic conduit?

 

Cybermen are loose upon Earth... This feels familiar. I wonder if they'll be sucked through a rift hole again...

 

I hope now that the Master? has shown up he'll remember he put Gallifrey somewhere in the multiverse and go looking for it. I've known people who have spent more energy finding their tv remote control than this guy has in finding his home planet.

 

Clara's blackmailed the Doctor with keys to a machine that is half sentient and opens when he clicks his fingers... which they showed like 3 or 4 episodes ago back when I watched it. I only watched this episode because I heard it was going to feature Missy and I wanted to see how butchered that would become.

 

YAWN

Even worse, CLARA has used the finger clicking thing on the doors (although she was closing them).

 

River Song seems to be in contact with the Doctor. She was with Eleven on Trenzalore, apparently after her library death.

 

The problem with bringing back Galifrey is that the Doctor will no longer be THE LAST OF HIS KIND. I'm not sure if Moffat could handle writing that, even though DW  writers managed to do it for 25 series.

[Llywela]

I would say that maybe the finger clicking only works if the door isn't actually locked, but it locks automatically when closed so...

 

It was a mistake to introduce that gimmick in the first place. Maybe the Doctor turned it off.

[Llywela]

Well, yes - but also no. The Doctor used the dream patch thingy (conveniently invented for this story, I believe - I don't remember seeing them before, although Clara made them sound everyday) to let Clara's intentions play out in a safe manner - she believed it was real, so what we saw was absolutely what she intended and had planned well in advance of reaching the TARDIS. It was the reason she phoned the Doctor, not to seek comfort from a friend but because she felt he owed her something. He didn't. And he owed her even less after she lied, stole and manipulated from the moment she stepped into his home, for purposes of extortion, for her own ends. The scenario might not have been real, but Clara thought it was. The Doctor allowed it to play out to see what she would do, to see how far she would go - I think they were both shocked to realise the answer to that questions.

Quoting myself just to add that what really struck me about what Clara did was that she didn't ask first. She didn't tell the Doctor Danny had died, ask for his help bringing him back, get turned down and then become desperate. She didn't even try. She went straight to force and extortion, as her first option. That says a lot of very bad things about her. If she felt that the Doctor owed her a favour because she's saved his life before now, why not have that conversation with him? If she'd tried that and he said no - as he bloody well should - then I could have understood her desperation. But she didn't even try. She went straight to 'I will force you to do my bidding, no matter what.' It's ugly characterisation - consistently so, but still ugly.