S05.E03: Four Walls And A Roof

[NurseGiGi]

The writers really dropped the ball with letting Maggie go away without even mentioning Beth.  Hell, when she was getting on the bus she could have thrown a line out to Rick about maybe, I don't know, entrusting him to make sure Beth got back safely.  Anything rather than nothing.

[Lyndy]

I'm oddly unmoved by the departure of Glenn and Maggie. I still like them. They just haven't had much to do yet this season so they have seemed a bit like bystanders. Hopefully we'll get back to the Glenn and Maggie we love and that eventually we'll find out why she doesn't give a toss about Beth. 

 

Also, I assumed Glenn's motive for going with Abraham was to keep the peace and give the Eugene Saves The Day plan a chance to work. (I won't reiterate why the Eugene Plan is stupid. It's so so stupid.) His offer to go kept Abraham and Rick from going all alpha male on each other. It kept Abraham & Co. around long enough to kill the Termites and it evened the odds once they left. I actually thought it was a pretty generous move.

[NurseGiGi]

Another thought.  Why has no one mentioned that even if Eugene has a cure there's no longer any way to mass produce and distribute said cure.  There's actually no way to produce it on a small scale even.  I just don't understand.  So many plot holes, so little time.  What works in the comics, and I've never read the comics, just assuming, does not translate well onto the screen.  

 

ETA:  To SimonS and others, I missed your posts earlier and see that we're thinking along the same lines.

Edited October 27, 2014 by NurseGiGi

[Boofish]

Am I a horrible person for wanting to make the look on Gareth's face when he saw that red handle my profile picture?

[Seawolff]

What was with Gareth suddenly knowing everyone's name.  When they were at Terminus it was Archer, Samurai, etc.  Is the difference between Terminus and Hunter that they want to know where the meat comes from.

  

This is exactly what makes Gareth a creepy psychopath. He learns the names of his cattle. Most farmers do not give names to animals raised for slaughter. Of course we could say he's giving them a little respect by learning who they are before using them; I just think it's an interesting choice made by the writers.

That Maggie and Glenn were appalled at the brutal executions shows they are still human. When Gareth and co killed it was

Business as usual. Caring people will always be appalled by executions no matter how necessary they are.

 My thoughts as to why Tara volunteered to go with Abraham et all:

Tara made the choice to go with Abraham back when they first left the prison. She did it to protect herself and a passed out Glenn. They would have likely died at that point without Abraham. She also took notes as to how to get Glenn back to where they started once he woke up. She was dedicated to Glenn and his mission. She also saw validity in Abrahams mission at the time, so did Glenn, but first things first, they needed to find Maggie. Abraham ended up following only because the truck broke down. (Which wouldn't have happened if they hadn't stopped when Glenn woke up)At that point, Glenn, Maggie and Tara unwillingly owe Abraham.

So Abraham, Rosita, and Eugene walk for days with Glenn and Tara. They all save each other and talk. They get captured they get busted out. I can readily believe that the whole group sees promise in the mission. I feel Tara volunteered because she knew she was the only one inbetween both groups. She had less to give up in order to stall Abraham and help Glenn's group. Also, she owes Abraham. Abraham requests Glenn and Maggie as well. He knows Glenn and Maggie have an extra interest in helping out being as Glenn and Tara were in fact rescued and reunited with Maggie solely because Abraham stopped his truck in the first place.

I also think that the group splitting now is different than the group splitting the moment they escape terminus. At the moment of escape they really needed to stabilize and get away from terminus. Once the terminites were in the past, I can see the group being willing to allow for some members to go on a mission and take the vehicle. They could be encouraged that since they were able to reunite before they can reunite again.

I think Beth will be assisting/carrying Carol.

[Boofish]

 

What was with Gareth suddenly knowing everyone's name.  When they were at Terminus it was Archer, Samurai, etc.  Is the difference between Terminus and Hunter that they want to know where the meat comes from.

We didn't see the Get Fresh Crew get captured but the Grixons introduced themselves to the Termites and Tyrese told Martin Judith's name. Because Gareth knew Bob's name at cut throat sink, I assume the Get Fresh Crew introduced themselves as well. I'm not one of those people, but I know plenty of people who only needs to hear someone's name once and they remember

 

[Ellaria]

I cannot get this ridiculous "Eugene has the cure so we are going to D.C." road trip out of my mind. I don't remember Abraham mentioning what he plans to do when he gets there. Did I miss it? I mean, how is Eugene going to miraculously produce this cure? Are they planing to go to the Naval Research Lab or NIH in Bethesda? Who does Abraham think is still alive and functioning in a densely populated D.C. metro region? Also, Rick, Glenn, and Daryl are not thinking straight. If the CDC could not come up with a vaccine or cure, what are the odds that Eugene can without the best minds, research materials, equipment at his disposal?

 

The only answer that I can come up with is that subconsciously everyone (other than Abraham) all know that Eugene is full of shit, but they are desperately grasping for any motivation to keep going. Abraham is going to lose it and beat Eugene to death when he finds out that he played him for a fool.

 

Motivation is necessary but it has to be well placed. A trip to Mordor has a better chance of succeeding. Abraham's plan is to drive about 600 miles from Atlanta to DC without any idea of what they will find when they get there...or what they will encounter along the way. To date, Abraham's judgement can be called into question since he marched into Terminus along with everyone else. I'm not sure that he is the guy I want to be leading this quest.

 

 

I don't think Rick buys Eugene's line of BS at all.

I do think, however, Rick sees the necessity for the group to have a clear motivational goal to prevent despair and maintain cohesion - at least, until they can find a place which offers some semblance of permanent security.

So - until they do find such a place, Rick will use whatever is handy to keep everybody moving in the same direction.

 

I wish we had a few more scenes of people questioning Eugene. We had a brief one in Boxcar A and that's it. There's lots riding on Eugene and his supposed miracle cure and it seems that everyone is just nodding in agreement. 

 

 

Agree that the writers have already made the Eugene thing an obvious ruse by him.  It would be a lot more suspenseful if they had played that less broadly, and no one including us, were sure if he really had some chance to end the ZA.  And I feel like they could have cut back on some of Gareth's monologuing, or Tyrese's whatever, and included something that showed Glenn's state of mind or doubts or something.  Instead it just feels like a plot contrivance to split the group. 

 

Agree and this is always my complaint with this show. There is so little nuance to many of the characters. The character of Eugene should have played out a little differently...with a degree of authority and some aspect of credibility...perhaps smug rather than dopey. Instead, he is almost played for comic relief: the mullet, the stiff arms when running. Abraham is risking a lot by accepting Eugene's story. Maybe a scene between Abraham and Rosita where they are questioning Eugene's knowledge and are conflicted about this trip would have helped. Without further insight into Abraham, I am left with questioning his smarts and I don't think that is the desired intent.

 

As far as Daryl and the mystery person...I think that it will be someone that we haven't met yet.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Ellaria Sand

[panthergirl13]

I meant to post this last week, but since they showed it again on the 'previously on' segment I'll mention it now:

 

Bob doesn't get a horrified look on his face about his missing leg until the camera pulls back and WE see that it's gone? That was like something out of Loony Tunes.

[JackONeill]

My two-cents (and I won't wait for change):  It was a ho-hum episode.  I mean they (and we) had come to expect so much out of Gareth and -- snap (or, swish, swish with a machete) - he's gone. 

 

Abraham and Rick bowing up (what two times, three times) like unfixed male dogs, ONLY to have Abraham leave anyway.  WITH the bus. 

 

And, frankly, other than the guy who Tyrese killed but, oops, didn't,  I thought it was somehow wrong that they were butchered.  Yeah, yeah, I get it.  They were "riding" with the bad guys which means they're bad.  I would have preferred if they'd just shown the others being shot (but not Gareth and the other dude).

 

And why is it, people can be shooting and yelling and no walkers show up, but when you're being stealthy and accidentally step on a twig, here comes a herd?  (Oh, I know, writer's perogative.)

 

Maybe Morgan's with Daryl.  (Then again, how much time has passed?  Daryl and Carol sped off in a car -- and how'd they find the car, it was going so fast -- did what they needed to do, and managed to get back to the church?!?  (Yes, I know I'll learn that later.)

Edited October 27, 2014 by JackONeill

[Caelicola]

Bob doesn't get a horrified look on his face about his missing leg until the camera pulls back and WE see that it's gone? That was like something out of Loony Tunes.

Actually, it's not all that weird; I saw an interview once with a young woman who had lost both of her legs in a car accident, and she said that she didn't even feel any pain, just vague numbness, until she looked down and saw that her legs were neatly severed right above the knee. I can't explain why that would happen, though, or if it's a common thing, and it could very well have been just clumsy storytelling in favor of a big shocking moment.

[kikismom]

 

Abraham and Rick bowing up (what two times, three times) like unfixed male dogs, ONLY to have Abraham leave anyway.  WITH the bus. 

 

 

The reason Rick let Abraham have the bus---and was smiling as it drove away---was that Rick planted a bomb on the bus, and now Abraham can't let the speed dip below 55 mph all the way to D.C.

 

Only people without red-handled machetes are crazy. Rick's eccentric.

[NurseGiGi]

I cracked up when Abraham told the group that he was taking the short bus to DC.

[ghoulina]

What box is this ghoulina?  Please jog my memory.

 

 

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/28/27/11/2827119cf3823f6ff7bc13f8f94d3609.jpg

[patchwork]

Was that it are Maggie and Glenn gone for good? 

 

If so what a lacklustre note to go out on. 

The show never bothered to make the DC storyline or Abraham and co interesting so I wont be sorry if this is the last we hear about it for a while, a very long while.

 

Martin knowing all the names of the people left in the church made me very suspicious that someone i.e. Gabriel was feeding them information. And what was the the red A all about? 

 

The actor sold the TAINTED MEAT! moment I was horrified beneath the giggling.  

[ghoulina]

The reason Rick let Abraham have the bus---and was smiling as it drove away---was that Rick planted a bomb on the bus, and now Abraham can't let the speed dip below 55 mph all the way to D.C.

 

Is Eugene going to defy physics and drive it over a giant chasm? 

Was that it are Maggie and Glenn gone for good?

If so what a lacklustre note to go out on.
The show never bothered to make the DC storyline or Abraham and co interesting so I wont be sorry if this is the last we hear about it for a while, a very long while.

 

I have a feeling we'll go back and forth between Rick's group and the DC storyline. Michael Cudlitz just made it to the opening credits. I doubt they'd do that if he was done for the season. 

 

And what was the the red A all about?

 

"A" was the train car that Rick's group was in at Terminus.

[LuciaMia]

Couple questions:

How does Abraham maintain that flawless flattop? Perhaps all that sweat acts as a natural hair gel

********

Has it ever been proven that eating, what Bob delicately called 'tainted meat', will cause someone to quickly 'turn?'  We've been told that everyone's already infected , so if they die by whatever means everyone will become a walker.  But would ingesting it like that hasten the process?   Loved how Gareth tried to cover it by saying they cooked it long enough.  Zombie virus ain't salmonella, pal.

Cannot believe females are writing in about how 'super hot' Gareth is.  Good Lord, ladies!  Well, there are women who send marriage proposals to serial killers in prison, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Me, I wanted to stab Gareth myself when he started rambling to Bob in that 'what we have here is a failure to communicate' tone of voice.  Blerg.

Would it have been a

better revenge to have left the Termites there, with unventilated heads,  to eventually become walkers?

[Boofish]

I actually like Abraham and could tolerate Rosita because she doesn't say much and she was holding her own when they fought their way out that train car. She is also not afraid to tell the menfolk to suck a duck. I just want Abraham to realize he is all brawn, no brain.  I can't take the know it all postering but I think overall he has been pretty good to and for the group

Edited October 27, 2014 by Boofish

[JackONeill]

One thing I'll say about Abraham (and maybe someone's already covered this):  He stepped up and killed one of Gareth's people, even though Glen and Maggie held back.  They acted . . . appalled.  Abraham did what needed to be done, no questions asked.  I hope Rick saw that and appreciated that.  Glen, who's been with Rick since the beginning, and Maggie who, in show's time, just saw her father killed by a similar evil dick were SHOCKED that Rick and the others would do something so cold-blooded.

[Puffaroo]

 I think my previous post got lost, too, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself.

 

I agreed with whoever said a lot of the episode was really dark -- my pre-HD TV was the same way. 

 

HOWEVER... it worked nicely just before the massacre in the church, as just about the only points of color were reds:  the stained glass, the machete handle, and of course the blood.  Brilliant cinematography.

[ladyrott]

My personal thought on the "C'mon out" is that it will be Carol DRAGGING Beth, who has suffered some kind of Stockholm syndrome crap and didn't want to be rescued.

[kikismom]

My personal thought on the "C'mon out" is that it will be Carol DRAGGING Beth, who has suffered some kind of Stockholm syndrome crap and didn't want to be rescued.

No matter what is ever happening, I can't see Daryl letting Carol do the dragging/heavy lifting. He even tried to help her carry water ( I mean sure he screwed that up but it was a nice thought.) Same with Daryl letting someone smaller and female guard a prisoner. Yes he does respect the women who are bad-asses...but it isn't about implying they are too weak. it is his awkward attempt to be a gentleman. Till he licks his fingers and shakes your hand.

Edited October 27, 2014 by kikismom

[shanndee]

One thing I'll say about Abraham (and maybe someone's already covered this):  He stepped up and killed one of Gareth's people, even though Glen and Maggie held back.  They acted . . . appalled.  Abraham did what needed to be done, no questions asked.  I hope Rick saw that and appreciated that.  Glen, who's been with Rick since the beginning, and Maggie who, in show's time, just saw her father killed by a similar evil dick were SHOCKED that Rick and the others would do something so cold-blooded.

 

I expected Abraham to step up. He is a military man, he has been trained for combat and gets things done. I think Glenn and Maggie would have been part of the killing...if the group had used guns. However, Rick specifically said they didn't want to waste the bullets...after he shot Gareth's fingers off. No, the group was showing their embracing of brutality. They were showing the first signs of becoming like the Termites rather than like human beings.

 

I think Glenn and Maggie are taking steps to be more like Herschel. Even as he faced his own death, he smiled to see Rick trying to rescue him with diplomacy rather than brute force. (I know, it ended badly for Herschel, but I believe that his daughter and son-in-law are following his example).

 

Anyway, I think their leaving the old group with this new one is the first step on their new journey.

[TexasChic]

After rewatching and giving it some thought, I think Maggie, Glen, Tara and Tyrese's horrified looks were meant to underline just how brutal the act of beating someone to death would actually be. They could have shot them and been done with it, but I'm sure at this point ammunition is extremely limited in their world. Why waste it when you may need it to save your life later? I think TPTB were trying to convey this was a horrifying act that had to be done whether they liked it or not, because that's the world they live in.

[TexasChic]

 

Cannot believe females are writing in about how 'super hot' Gareth is.  Good Lord, ladies!  Well, there are women who send marriage proposals to serial killers in prison, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Well, as one of the woman who thinks he's hot, I will say it's the actor and not the character I find attractive. Of course if he was truly the character he portrayed, I don't think I would find him quite so handsome.

[patchwork]

There are quicker, less brutal ways to kill someone even with a sharp pointy things rather than a gun Glenn, Maggie and Tara were probably horrified to see members of their group kill human beings as though they were already Walkers. 

 

 

I have a feeling we'll go back and forth between Rick's group and the DC storyline. Michael Cudlitz just made it to the opening credits. I doubt they'd do that if he was done for the season.

 

Well that's my bubble burst.

Edited October 27, 2014 by patchwork

[nodorothyparker]

The reason Rick let Abraham have the bus---and was smiling as it drove away---was that Rick planted a bomb on the bus, and now Abraham can't let the speed dip below 55 mph all the way to D.C.

 

Is Eugene going to defy physics and drive it over a giant chasm?

 

Possibly.  He is a "scientist."  A "scientist" with a mullet.

[ghoulina]

No, the group was showing their embracing of brutality. They were showing the first signs of becoming like the Termites rather than like human beings.

 

I don't see how Rick and co. are becoming like the Termites. The Termites were hurting innocent people. No. They were luring innocent people to them under false pretenses, keeping them locked up for God knows how long, systematically killing them while others looked on, and eating them. They did this to man, woman, child alike. 

 

Rick's group did get a bit brutal. But these were no innocents they killed. They killed some very nasty people, who had maimed and devoured someone they cared about. Not everyone has to react the same, but I think it's VERY human to have a lot of anger towards someone like that and to want to get revenge. 

 

Well, as one of the woman who thinks he's hot, I will say it's the actor and not the character I find attractive. Of course if he was truly the character he portrayed, I don't think I would find him quite so handsome.

 

Yea, unless the women writing in are saying, "It's so hot how Gareth eats people. I would totally be his cannibal partner in crime" - I see nothing weird about it. He's not a real person. People can find actors attractive even when they're playing bad guys. 

[shanndee]

I don't see how Rick and co. are becoming like the Termites. The Termites were hurting innocent people. No. They were luring innocent people to them under false pretenses, keeping them locked up for God knows how long, systematically killing them while others looked on, and eating them. They did this to man, woman, child alike. 

 

Rick's group did get a bit brutal. But these were no innocents they killed. They killed some very nasty people, who had maimed and devoured someone they cared about. Not everyone has to react the same, but I think it's VERY human to have a lot of anger towards someone like that and to want to get revenge. 

 

 

 

Oh, I agree. I would probably be one of those people exacting brutal revenge instead of going for the quick kill. However, Maggie and Glenn are clearly not those people, and they are horrified to see their family behave in this manner. I didn't mean to suggest that our group could harm innocent people. What I am trying to say (badly!) is that this looks like a giant leap onto a slippery slope. Remember, the Termites were originally trying to welcome and help newcomers. Then, after they were brutally attacked, they responded in kind. Clearly they went way to far, but how many brutal encounters will it take before our group starts to change?

[Starchild]

The Termites were unarmed when they were killed. And on their knees. Whether or not that is a line that should eventually be crossed in this kind of world, it is a line, and it was crossed. I think that probably accounts for the horrified reactions. This is the first time these folks were on the same side as people who would kill unarmed human beings, and it gave them pause. Especially Tyreese, who couldn't cross that line with Martin. I expect we'll see how they deal with it.

 

If Morgan is months behind Rick's group then it's probably not him with Daryl. I certainly hope it's Carol. I'm hoping that his hesitation is based on learning what happened with Lizzie and not being sure if Tyreese has told the rest of the group, and he and Carol wondering what her reception will be like. Or maybe Beth got bit on the way back and Carol was the one to put her down and now she is reluctant to face Maggie, and Daryl is feeling her pain.

 

Whatever happens next week, if we have to lose Carol in order to get Beth back, Imma riot, y'all.

[PunkyMouse]

My personal thought on the "C'mon out" is that it will be Carol DRAGGING Beth, who has suffered some kind of Stockholm syndrome crap and didn't want to be rescued.

 

 

 

No matter what is ever happening, I can't see Daryl letting Carol do the dragging/heavy lifting. He even tried to help her carry water ( I mean sure he screwed that up but it was a nice thought.) Same with Daryl letting someone smaller and female guard a prisoner. Yes he does respect the women who are bad-asses...but it isn't about implying they are too weak. it is his awkward attempt to be a gentleman. Till he licks his fingers and shakes your hand.

 

At first I agreed with scenario A, but I think you're right, kikismom, I can't imagine Daryl letting Carol schlep Beth around. Although, after that first piggyback I can imagine he wouldn't be up for a second one.

 

I finally got to see the episode, and I liked it more than I thought I would. Of course, I liked Bob, so I was sad to see him go and I agree with whomever said upthread that it was nice to see him go with dignity. And I flove baby Judith. I just do. I love that the little actor isn't scared of the hairy man any more and just conked right out in his arms.

 

According to the map, the Three Stooges and co. will be taking I-85 north and cutting over to I-95, which is the normal route from Hotlanta to DC. I know I'll never get my wish but I'd love to see some of the cities en route like Charlotte and Durham. Maybe they can make a layover at Falls Lake and all have a good, long soak. 

 

I'm not looking forward to a Beth-centric episode next week. And if they are keeping Father Gabriel, there really is no need for Beth anymore because he's the innocent teenage girl who hasn't learned to adapt to the ZA world. And let me say, I will be hella pissed if something bad befalls Carol while rescuing that useless piece of fluff.

 

ETA:

 

Whatever happens next week, if we have to lose Carol in order to get Beth back, Imma riot, y'all.

 

 

What Starchild said.

Edited October 27, 2014 by PunkyMouse

[diebartdie]

Quote

    Bob's end got to me more than I thought it would. RIP, Bob. I guess we'll never find out what's in the box.

 

    

 

What box is this ghoulina?  Please jog my memory.

At the prison, right after Daryl, Tyreese, Michonne and Bob got back, there was a scene with Bob sitting alone, holding a box, looking mournful. He did not open the box so the audience never saw what was inside it. He placed the box on a shelf. Right after that all hell broke loose. Personally I think he put that bottle of liquor in the box.

Edited October 27, 2014 by diebartdie

[GodsBeloved]

If Morgan is months behind Rick's group then it's probably not him with Daryl. I certainly hope it's Carol. I'm hoping that his hesitation is based on learning what happened with Lizzie and not being sure if Tyreese has told the rest of the group, and he and Carol wondering what her reception will be like. Or maybe Beth got bit on the way back and Carol was the one to put her down and now she is reluctant to face Maggie, and Daryl is feeling her pain.

Didn't Tyreese say he didn't think they should tel lthe group Lizze? If I'm remembering correctly, why would Carol think he told them?

[Trek]

I fear that Glenn isn't becoming Herschel after all; he is becoming Dale.

Glenn has always been a “saver” (of people) and never much of a “killer” of people (but he is as good as anyone when it comes to walkers – iirc only person shown to be able to kill a walker when tied to a freaking chair!) In that regard, his character has been pretty consistent throughout the show.

 

The very first time we see him, he’s the guy that saves Rick’s life when Rick was a total stranger (or rather the “hey you, yeah you, the dumbass in the tank”) to him.  He turns back to save Tara in the prison despite knowing she was from the attackers’ crew. He insists on trying to help others trapped at Terminus out, not just their own skins etc.  He will also take great personal risks when the objectives is constructive e.g. He takes point going into a sewer, goes down a well to take out bloated zombie so others can get clean water etc.

 

At the same time, he’s never been much of killer of people – froze at the bar fight, was sick during the Governor’s attack etc.  So I don’t think he is turning to Dale and unlike Tyreese, he will fight (people) but he’s never going to enjoy it or want it to be any more brutal than it needs to be. I think he’s been pretty much always like that.

 

Now it depends on one’s point of view if such a person is valuable in the ZA but Rick himself would not be alive otherwise. We know for example that if the shoe was on the other foot Rick would have abandoned a stranger in a tank in a heartbeat – on more than one occasion we’ve seen him abandon strangers needing help while they were under attack from far fewer walkers that those surrounding the tank - and remember that backpacker he let die and then take the pack out from the blood smears on the way back.

 

Abraham agreeing to wait because Tara, Glenn, and Maggie agreed to go with him if they did made zero sense...because Glenn, Maggie, and Tara are not Rick, Daryl, Carol, or Michonne.

As others have mentioned, Abe was on the road with Glenn for some time and knows his walker killing skills and probably his scavenger skills as well (which is the best of the bunch bar none) while all he has seen of the others is them shooting up other people, so wanting him (and he and Maggie aren't going anywhere without the other while Tara already volunteered) is not that surprising.  Besides, if it were me in the ZA, having a “saver” in your crew watching your back is no bad thing at all. Shane is perhaps the ultimate pragmatic “killer” type, but I bet that dude that went to get medical supplies for Carl with Shane wished he had gone with a “saver” type instead.  And heck, Carol might kill Eugene if he develops a cough or something (not that Abe would know that - which is the point, he knows Glenn and Tara reasonably well but not the others).

Edited October 27, 2014 by Trek

[Boofish]

 

The Termites were unarmed when they were killed. And on their knees. Whether or not that is a line that should eventually be crossed in this kind of world, it is a line, and it was crossed. I think that probably accounts for the horrified reactions. This is the first time these folks were on the same side as people who would kill unarmed human beings, and it gave them pause. Especially Tyreese, who couldn't cross that line with Martin. I expect we'll see how they deal with it.

You can't show up to a Rick fight with a Dale. I'm sorry but they were pointing AK-47's and automatic rifles at a door in which they knew a baby was behind. I'm the youngest of 7 and I was always picking on someone and then would cry when they snapped back. As mother said "aint much fun when the rabbit got the gun" Gareth is lucky; Rick probably took him out with the first slice

[Starchild]

Overwhelming guilt can force a confession. Just ask Father Gabriel.

[ghoulina]

The Termites were unarmed when they were killed. And on their knees. Whether or not that is a line that should eventually be crossed in this kind of world, it is a line, and it was crossed. I think that probably accounts for the horrified reactions. This is the first time these folks were on the same side as people who would kill unarmed human beings, and it gave them pause.

 

They weren't unarmed when they got there. They marched in, fully armed, ready to take people out. These people would have eaten Judith, I have no doubt. They were only unarmed because Rick and co. unarmed them. And then they killed them. So that they could never harm anyone else again. I mean, it's usually easier to kill someone after you've disarmed them. 

[Starchild]

You can't show up to a Rick fight with a Dale. I'm sorry but they were pointing AK-47's and automatic rifles at a door in which they knew a baby was behind.

Regardless, once you've got them disarmed and on their knees, going that extra step to hack or beat them to death is a line not everyone can cross, not until their own personal circumstances and experiences dictate.

[GodsBeloved]

Glenn has always been a “saver” (of people) and never much of a “killer” of people (but he is as good as anyone when it comes to walkers – iirc only person shown to be able to kill a walker when tied to a freaking chair!) In that regard, his character has been pretty consistent throughout the show.

 

The very first time we see him, he’s the guy that saves Rick’s life when Rick was a total stranger (or rather the “hey you, yeah you, the dumbass in the tank”) to him.  He turns back to save Tara in the prison despite knowing she was from the attackers’ crew. He insists on trying to help others trapped at Terminus out, not just their own skins etc.  He will also take great personal risks when the objectives is constructive e.g. He takes point going into a sewer, goes down a well to take out bloated zombie so others can get clean water etc.

 

At the same time, he’s never been much of killer of people – froze at the bar fight, was sick during the Governor’s attack etc.  So I don’t think he is turning to Dale and unlike Tyreese, he will fight (people) but he’s never going to enjoy it or want it to be any more brutal than it needs to be. I think he’s been pretty much always like that.

 

Now it depends on one’s point of view if such a person is valuable in the ZA but Rick himself would not be alive otherwise. We know for example that if the shoe was on the other foot Rick would have abandoned a stranger in a tank in a heartbeat – on more than one occasion we’ve seen him abandon strangers needing help while they were under attack from far fewer walkers that those surrounding the tank - and remember that backpacker he let die and then take the pack out from the blood smears on the way back.

 

Well said, especially the part about not wanting the killing of people to be more brutal than it needs to be.

 

The thing I would add though is Rick did help Randall.

Edited October 27, 2014 by GodsBeloved

[Brooke0707]

I'm really looking forward to next week and seeing where Beth has been.  The hospital looked so creepy.  I don't think Carol or Beth were with Daryl because I don't see why he'd have to tell them to come out and he looked upset/unsure, so I think it's someone else.

 

For a bit there, because Bob's death was dragging, I thought maybe they would show him as someone who is immune - not that he wouldn't die necessarily, but that he wouldn't turn.  But, they didn't go there.

 

Maggie and Glenn looked pretty horrified.  That said, I don't think they're smart going with Abraham.  Eugene's story sounds like a joke.  Maggie never once thought about Beth either.  Meanwhile, she was going insane when she thought Glenn was out there.

 

I was surprised they killed Gareth so quickly.  The scene was really disturbing, but they had to go IMO.  These people would only threaten other humans, even if they left Rick's group alone.

[fliptopbox]

I am thinking that whoever is with Daryl is someone new. My guess is he and Carol found wherever Beth is. Maybe Carol stayed behind to infiltrate and scope out what's happening inside (since we know they are snatching women) Maybe Daryl took a hostage and brought them back for basically an interrogation. Would explain why he's sneaking through the woods instead of just pulling up right out front with the car.

[diebartdie]

I want to say this again, EVERYONE agrees the Termites had to be put down. What I find really interesting is we seem to have two factions, those that think what Rick, Michonne and Abraham did was the perfect punishment and those that think it was an over the top slaughter (of evil people that needed to die and were in no way innocent, they really did need to die, we all agree on that much). My sister and I think it was too much, a bullet or knife to the head would have been just fine. Others, like a dear friend of mine seem to think it was perfect. What Im not understanding is why those in the overkill camp seem to think those of us in the just kill camp are somehow weak? We all agree, the Termites had to go, we're all really happy the Termites are dead. Those of us that feel disgust over what happened are entitled to our feelings, our feelings are just as valid as feeling the righteous rush some of yall seem to have felt over the slaughter. In fact, I did not see Maggie and Glenn "judging", I saw them reacting to a horrific scene. The only one's I see judging are posters complaining that Maggie and Glenn chose ont to go all romper stomper on the Termites.

[Boofish]

 

The only one's I see judging are posters complaining that Maggie and Glenn chose ont to go all romper stomper on the Termites.

I guess I'm reading the comments differently. Seems like a calm rationale discussion of people with different opinions. I for one don't feel like I'm juding other posters but I'm judging the characters on the show because it's part of the discussion. I need to reread again; in all honesty I just don't see the discord. For the characters yes, but I have not witnessed any personal attacks. Frankly I'm on team slice and dice but only because it's fictional and could never happen. I have no beef (pun intended LOL) with anyone who does not agree with me and I hope its the same in reverse

[RedheadZombie]

I'm surprised so many people saw Glen, Maggie, Eugene and Rosita's reactions to the massacre so negatively. While it is true everyone in that church (with a couple exceptions) has done terrible things to survive, that doesnt mean they wouldnt still have human reactions and be disgusted, shocked, mortified by a brutal massacre happening right in front of their faces. Look, we all agree the Termites had to die and if I was in Rick's group and he said to me "diebartdie, pick up the AK-47, we're gonna go kill them thar Termites to death now." I would totally pick up the AK-47 and go with him and help kill the Termites to death. If he said that and then we snuck back around, trapped the Termites in the Church, allowed them to threaten and get WAY TOO CLOSE to our most fragile, precious team members, and then Rick, Michonne and Abraham just slaughtered the fuck out of the Termites, I would be pretty freaked out too, EVEN THOUGH KILLING THE TERMITES WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. That shit was so far over the top, I was more grossed out by that scene that either Bob's leg or the trough scene. The reactions Glenn, Maggie and the others had made sense and did not in any way read as "judgemental" to me. Killing bad guys is one thing. Doing what Rick did was really just uncalled for. As another poster upthread said, (paraphrasing) the only reason to do it like that was to send a message but there was no one left to hear that message.

 

I have to agree with you.  I just re-watched the scene because to be honest, I'm sure I had the same expression as Maggie/Glenn/Tara/Tyreese.  I think back on the "Carl about to be raped scene"- Rick became a violent animal, and thank God for that!  It was a desperate, out of control moment, and Rick only tore that man's throat out because Carl was a split-second from being raped.  I loved that we saw how his violence impacted Rick.  He didn't regret it, but he seemed traumatized afterwards.

 

I compare that to the church slaughter.  And I believe even TTD referred to it as a "slaughter".  It was a controlled environment, the bad guys were disarmed and on their knees, and the good guys out numbered the bad guys, two to one.  I have absolutely no problem that Rick didn't want to negotiate or listen to a sob story, I have no problem that they were immediately executed - I wanted them dead, and I'm glad there's no question that they are.  But I don't see M/G/T/T as judgmental, I saw them as a little shocked.  Sure it was great that Rick kept his promise about the machete, and probably aimed so much hostility at Gareth for even speaking Judith's name.  Sasha's over-kill was in direct relation to what they did to Bob.  But the moment was bizarre, and I argue that the show deliberately made it that way.  There was a prolonged scene of Rick hacking and hacking and hacking ......... and he looked a little insane.  They also deliberately showed Sasha and Abraham way over-killing, and implied Michonne was doing the same.  It was bizarre.  All four of them were perfectly calm, and if I happened upon the show without knowing the characters, I would have thought they were the roving band of murdering cannibals.  Tyreese was horrified, but backed up without speaking a word.  G/M/T were horrified, but continued to hold up their guns and guard (without attempting to stop anything).

 

I also remember that these are some of the same people who expected Glenn and Maggie to "get over" what happened to them, and co-exist with Merle.   Glenn and Maggie didn't plot to murder Merle in bloody triumphant vengeance.  But once their own direct loved ones were threatened, there was no forgiveness, co-existing, or encouragement to move on.

 

A few thoughts, I don't have a problem with Maggie taking off (she made a deal) for DC with Abe & Co while Beth is still out there.  The gang has no idea if Beth is still alive or even in the same county/state.  All they know is that she was taken about a week ago and no one knows anything else.  How would they even go about finding her?  It seems that the gang has come to a certain acceptance with missing group members, they now seem to leave it up to fate.  They'll leave messages and hope that people will find them or find their way back to them but the days of spending weeks looking for Sophia are long past.   

 

I'm not happy that G/M/T are leaving with the Three Stooges.  Tara's offers was a generous one - her only connection was to Maggie/Glenn.  Abraham is the one who demanded Maggie and Glenn, and M/G only agreed because they wanted the greatest chance of all of them surviving, and reclaiming their missing members.  As pointed out many times upthread, the three did not leave because they were cannibal-sympathizing pacifists.

Regarding Maggie being a shitty sister - that's the lazy writers.  I've seen nothing but love and protection from Maggie to Beth.  They had just escaped from Terminus, caught up with Tyreese and Judith, and procured that night's safety while planning to gather resources the next day.   Should Maggie have mentioned Beth - hell yes!  They were catching a few hours of rest, and for better or worse, this group follows Rick in all things.  And Rick was temporarily high off of sweet baby Judith being alive.  I'm not sure what was expected from Maggie.  The very reason Daryl threw himself down on the ground and just sat there, was because he (the master tracker) had absolutely no idea where to look.  Several days later, fresh from escaping Terminus, saving Gabriel, and stockpiling food so they wouldn't starve, I guess Maggie should have pulled out her crystal ball and located, then recovered Beth.  After the slaughter, she was obligated to go with the Stooges.  As stupid as I find that trio, the promise of a cure is pretty seductive, and if Georgians like to rally around anything, it's the military, God, and the government (depending on the POTUS).

[SHOgirl]

What Im not understanding is why those in the overkill camp seem to think those of us in the just kill camp are somehow weak?

I don't think you are somehow weak. And I don't think Rick, Michonne, etc are inhuman. Rick? With Judith? Not inhuman. Rick? With Bob? Not inhuman. Rick? With the Termites? Exacting justice and revenge. That's about as human as a person can get. It's not like he ate them after. He buried them.

[wetmoregal]

I thought Maggie and Glenn were initially shocked by the brutality of Rick and others killing the Terminus survivors.  But, I also think Maggie knew it was necessary and relayed that with her response to Gabriel.  The building where the killing took place was just 4 walls and a roof.  Very matter of fact. It had to be done.

 

I also believe that she and Glenn realized that the decision not to go back to Terminus and take care of things when they had their chance led to this violent encounter. 

 

I also belive that Glenn and Maggie volunteered to go with Abraham in order to keep Rick and Abraham going at it.  No bloodshed within the group at all cost. 

 

I expected Tyreese to plunge the knife into Bob's brain with full force-arm up and stabbing the knife as they normally do when fighting with the Walkers.  I was surprised when he gently (or as gently as one can under the circumstances) stabbed it into Bob's brain.  He knew it needed to be done and did it respectfully. 

 

After Rick shot Gareth's fingers off and then let him give his speech, I had to walk away.  I kept thinking hurry up and kill him.  Shut him him fast.  He's going to talk his way out of it or figure out a way to get the upper hand.  I was so relieved when Rick took the ax to him. 

 

I enjoy this show and look forward to every Sunday.  I also enjoy reading all the views on this forum site. 

[40Love]

The Termites were unarmed when they were killed. And on their knees. Whether or not that is a line that should eventually be crossed in this kind of world, it is a line, and it was crossed. I think that probably accounts for the horrified reactions. This is the first time these folks were on the same side as people who would kill unarmed human beings, and it gave them pause. Especially Tyreese, who couldn't cross that line with Martin. I expect we'll see how they deal with it.

 

IMO, anything short of wagging your fingers at Garrett and his group, asking them if they had learned their lesson and letting them go with a promise that they would leave CDB alone... would have been brutal. 

 

Killing kneeling, unarmed people with a bullet to the head is still an execution... a less messy death... but still a death... and pretty cold one at that. The termites were going to have to die no matter what. Rick and the others just went about it in an angrier way.

 

Glen and Maggie would have probably been less horrified if they killed the termites in a gun-battle or in a hand-to-hand fight for their lives. But, I think they would have been just as upset at seeing human, captured and defeated Termites shot between the eyes while kneeling and begging for their lives. It's who Glen and Maggie are. I get them trying to hold onto humanity as tight as they can... but the Termites had to go... one way or the other.

[Iguessnot]

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/28/27/11/2827119cf3823f6ff7bc13f8f94d3609.jpg

Yep, basically a plot device to put him in the pool of possible Karen & David killers but now he's gone and that meant nothing. I think the HUGE blood trails and burned corpses were another plot device didn't fit.

[ghoulina]

The only one's I see judging are posters complaining that Maggie and Glenn chose ont to go all romper stomper on the Termites.

 

I agree with boofish - totally not judging posters, but the characters. And I'm not judging Glenn and Maggie for not pulverizing the Termites. I'm just saying I'd judge them for having a problem with Rick doing so. And I simply disagree that what he (and the others) did is leading him down a path towards being like the Termites. 

Edited October 27, 2014 by ghoulina

[diebartdie]

 

I think back on the "Carl about to be raped scene"- Rick became a violent animal, and thank God for that!  It was a desperate, out of control moment, and Rick only tore that man's throat out because Carl was a split-second from being raped.  I loved that we saw how his violence impacted Rick.  He didn't regret it, but he seemed traumatized afterwards.

 

I compare that to the church slaughter.  And I believe even TTD referred to it as a "slaughter".  It was a controlled environment, the bad guys were disarmed and on their knees, and the good guys out numbered the bad guys, two to one.  I have absolutely no problem that Rick didn't want to negotiate or listen to a sob story, I have no problem that they were immediately executed - I wanted them dead, and I'm glad there's no question that they are.  But I don't see M/G/T/T as judgmental, I saw them as a little shocked.  Sure it was great that Rick kept his promise about the machete, and probably aimed so much hostility at Gareth for even speaking Judith's name.  Sasha's over-kill was in direct relation to what they did to Bob.  But the moment was bizarre, and I argue that the show deliberately made it that way.  There was a prolonged scene of Rick hacking and hacking and hacking ......... and he looked a little insane.  They also deliberately showed Sasha and Abraham way over-killing, and implied Michonne was doing the same.  It was bizarre.  All four of them were perfectly calm, and if I happened upon the show without knowing the characters, I would have thought they were the roving band of murdering cannibals.  Tyreese was horrified, but backed up without speaking a word.  G/M/T were horrified, but continued to hold up their guns and guard (without attempting to stop anything).

Yep, right there with you on all that! I'd add, when the slaughter was over and we see each of our heroes, Sasha is the one who was the most dissociated and really had to work at getting her real self back. Rick just kind of shook it off (whats hacking a man to death after you've torn another man's throat out with your teeth?), I dont recall Michonne or Abraham's reactions but Sasha's really stood out to me as she went somewhere she never in a million years thought she would go to.

 

It was a crazy, bizarre, horrific scene that grossed me out and frankly made me uncomfortable to the point where I sort of dont feel as enthusiastic about my enjoyment of the show. The comics did this to me three times, the first time was also this "death of the hunters" scene. When it's all said and done, emotionally there is a difference between executing a murderer and murdering one (Dexter was never a good guy, capitol punishment is a good thing IN THEORY if not in practice).

Edited October 27, 2014 by diebartdie

[Mu Shu]

One thing to consider in the ZA is your street cred.   Who is going to give better street cred?   The Grimes Gang or Sargent Ginger's lonely man boobs club?     Didn't those jokers go to Terminus with the expectation of "picking up supplies", as if Gareth and the rest of the weirdos were going to be all,  "Here, I insist, take some water, sunflower seeds, and a 10 pound bag of people jerky"? 

 

Nice send off for Bob.   Well played, Mr. Gilliard.    He should be getting some good roles.

 

Oh, those fucking Termites got sliced and diced real good.   The assault on the church and subsequent table turning was one of the best tense scenes so far.    Why do they paint A on stuff, though?    What does it stand for?   Asshole? 

 

Maybe Daryl has the weirdo from the train car who actually escaped and is his second cousin, twice removed? 

 

Bob played the hell out of the tainted meat scene,  but since it didn't matter,  it was just a throwaway.  

 

Sasha will slash the shit out of you, and Tyrese probably is getting 5 star reviews on Care.com.   I knew Sasha was heading into badass territory when she ditched her Charlie Brown sweater and got a proper post apocalyptic ensemble.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2014 by Mu Shu