S10.E02: Reichenbach

[LittleIggy]

Just give Castiel his mojo back. I'm tired of him moping around.

[Coxfires]

Apparently, Castiel still has part of his mojo, since he has the power to wash his shirt while sleeping on a couch. 

[DittyDotDot]

One of the guys on the VFX team tweeted about it.  He said they didn't use any old footage, it was all "magic."  He said at some point they might release of breakdown of how they did it.  Here's his twitter:

 

https://twitter.com/adamwvfx

 

So I'm guessing they got a replica of the leather jacket.  Wouldn't be too difficult.

 

Thanks kimery--I assumed is was VFX, but I thought it was probably a mash up of new and old of some sort and the shot of Dean standing in his jacket with a knife looked familiar to me somehow, but couldn't quite place it. I recently watched the S3 little bit on the special effects department, apparently they made a "virtual" Dean for the car crash sequence in Mystery Spot. Of course, I knew Jensen didn't really get hit by a car, but found how they put the sequence together fascinating. I hope they do eventually show us how they did it here too--I know, I'm weird that I care about these things.

 

As far as the jacket...I'm not so sure it is so easy to find a replica. They only had the one and after it got stolen in S6 I would have thought they'd have replaced it if it was so easy to find another. Maybe they just wanted to move past it though.

 

 

I think they are fucking up the timeline again because the date given by Cole was 2003. Which would mean pre-first Season. Yet, didn`t it have Dean sporting Ruby`s knife? Which, at least Carver should remember, entered the scene in Season 3. He was a writer during that Season and even if he wasn`t, some research wouldn`t hurt.

 

And here in lies the biggest problem with Cole and the timeline they set up. Pre-first season, Dean had not hunted a demon, nor a shifter, nor vampire, nor almost any monster they've showcased over the years. Most of the monsters we've seen have been first time hunts for the boys at some point since the show started in 2005. So, I was thinking it's either got to be that Dean killed the monster that killed Cole's dad and Cole just assumed Dean did it or that's not actually Dean but a shifter or something else that killed Cole's Dad. But now I see another possibility. Whatever Cole's father was may be something we've never seen before--similar to how they did the kitsune with Amy in S7. Of course, that would mean that they actually did do a little research before they started down this road, which I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn they did not. Rugaru retcon last season ring a bell?

Edited October 17, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

So I have watched this episode about 4 times now.  I put it right there with the best of the series, obviously not Lazarus Rising or The End or Dark Side of the Moon or what have you but certainly the one of the best in the past 4 seasons. It seemed to me that it was filmed with a slightly less bright color palette. Not that it was desaturated (oh how I long for that), but it had some nice shadows in the bar confrontation between Sam and Dean. It just FELT like old skool SPN. Did anyone else have that impression?

 

I have been one of the harshest, loudest critics/detractors of the Demon!Dean storyline. I still loathe it on principle and still think it should never have happened because it's cruel and terrible to make Dean into his own worst nightmare. But gods help me, I sort of love and am terrified of demon!Dean and just that's because of Jensen's Ackting.

 

I know I go on and on about him but I just need to take a minute and revel in his brilliance here. I do not understand how he can make Dean be demon!Dean who is Dean but he's not Dean and he's the same but very different. I get a headache trying to comprehend how he does it. And it's slightly different than what he did with future!Dean and regular!Dean. I thought I saw some hints of Purgatory!Dean and future!Dean, especially during the fight scenes but only just a flash because then he flipped into something far colder and deadlier and more terrifying than either of those Deans.   And it's not with big overblown changes to Dean. It's subtle and layered and nuanced. He still snarks with pop culture and the Inigo Montoya bit had me guffawing. He's funny but not comical. He's snarky but not sassy.  And he is terrifying.

 

In the scene with Crowley when he tossed him across the room, Dean face and voiced just...well I'm not sure how to describe it but it wasn't really rage or even anger really. It was just this..."I'm done with you. I can destroy you in an instant but I'm not going to but this is just a warning and don't fuck with me again' look that flashed in an instant and then he struck, like a cat or a cobra. And even Crowley is afraid of Dean. I wonder if Alastair would be afraid of Dean. I so badly need to see Alastair cower to demon!Dean.

 

Then in the scene with Lester. He was taunting Lester and it was kind of funny at first but then when Lester started calling Dean a freak, Dean's face and eyes just changed to terrifying again and it wasn't a big thing, but it was so powerful and scary and threatening and holy crap, that was amazing. 

 

Gah, it's just so brilliant and I love it and I hate and as Bill Hader said on SNL "Well, mark me down as scared and horny".  

Edited October 17, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

Outstanding commentary catrox!  You've really captured how well this was done.  I particularly got neck strain with all my head bobbing during this paragraph:

 

In the scene with Crowley when he tossed him across the room, Dean face and voiced just...well I'm not sure how to describe it but it wasn't really rage or even anger really. It was just this..."I'm done with you. I can destroy you in an instant but I'm not going to but this is just a warning and don't fuck with me again' look that flashed in an instant and then he struck, like a cat or a cobra. And even Crowley is afraid of Dean. I wonder if Alastair would be afraid of Dean. I so badly need to see Alastair cower to demon!Dean.

emphasis bit -- that was soooo well done.  And clearly he can take Crowley, just like Abaddon could.  But the fact that Dean gave him a warning -- well, I think he did it because he doesn't want to deal with a no-King Hell-mess but I still wonder if he harbors something in the direction of appreciation with Crowley.  I mean, photos don't lie. They DID have a good time for a while. 

 

I also enjoyed them having clueless Lester while we all watched Dean.  Who DIDN'T see that coming for Lester when he called him a freak.  So I think the writing/editing/acting all combined to help us "see" Demon!Dean.  I think he wasn't lying when he said killing Lester made him feel good.  But Crowley isn't wrong -- why ISN'T the wife dead?  A regular demon would have murdered them both.  And I think "murder" is the key word here.  Dean told Lester "Murder 101....".  Dean knew he was committing murder.  In the past, he will use the word "kill" or "gank", but killing either Mindy or Lester was just murder.  It doesn't really matter if they sold their soul or not.  Both were humans whose life he was going to end. Bloody.  Which leads me to both a Watsonian and Doylist commentary:

Watsonian:

- Dean NEEDED to kill to retain his sanity. He said "one time" to Crowley because he didn't have a plan for how to make this work without Crowley. In fact, he was all "I'll call you when I need you." in this regard. 

- Crowley offered up Mindy, the wife. Crowley's rationale was she was going to die by some demon's hand, it might as well be Dean's.  That sort-of worked for Dean.

- Whilst in stalker mode, Dean spots Lester and stops what he is doing to go talk to him.  Did he go talk to him because he wanted to get some info on the wife that made it easier (non-demony kind of motivation)? Did he talk to him to stall (non-demony kind of motivation)? Did he talk to him because Lester was sort of blowing the whole thing by watching (just couldn't stand to see the guy be stupid when he sold his soul for this -- sort of Dean-like but not really demony or non-demony)? Did he talk to him because he wanted to make sure Lester wasn't a threat (potential demony motivation)?  I'm not sure.  But I'm leaning towards at least a bit of stalling here.

- Lester makes himself a much more attractive target by not only being a LOSER, but an asshole and insulting Dean. Dean gets his kill with no regrets (maybe).

- Dean later says to Sam "maybe I've got it coming".  Is it for this most recent kill or other kills since Dean has been a demon? 

In sum, from a Watsonian perspective, I think Dean killed because he had to to keep sane. He picked the lesser of two evils in his mind but he KNOWS it's murder. And that's different than things that non-Demon!Dean would do.

 

Doylist

- There's plenty of complaints about Dean being too soft already. Dean killing random humans is a good moral event horizon for him to cross to make it clear that he's screwed up.

- Look at the two victims:

1) Mindy is portrayed in an externally negative way in many regards.  Supernatural uses terrible cliches to represent less-than-wholesome people.  warning: HORRIBLE CLICHES AHEAD. I'M POINTING THEM OUT, NOT AGREEING.  List of cliche's: Blonde bombshell look (large breasts, dress she was wearing was straining at the suggestive front-zipper up top, fairly heavy makeup). Wearing black sexy lingerie while having an affair in her kitchen with a heavily tatoo'd individual.  They are using "tramp" indicators from a Hollywood POV. I hate it, but it seems obvious to me.  So... I think they were trying to suggest killing Mindy was not as horrible because she somehow "deserved it".  OR AT LEAST THEY TAKE US PARTIALLY DOWN THAT PATH.

2) Enter Lester.  Lester is much worse than Mindy.  He's an entitled schmuck spouting misogynistic bullshit.  He looks like a greaseball.  And most importantly, HE SOLD HIS SOUL.  So now, the audience has a much more acceptable murder victim for Dean.  He's signed off on going to Hell over something materialistic -- so if he lives another 10 years or not it doesn't matter -- he's headed for the rack.  Having Dean kill him is more palatable.  It's easier for the audience to not lose sleep over that.  And it's even better because they subverted the "trashy wife" trope by having Dean choose World-Class-Loser Cliche over Trashy-Wife Cliche. 

But you know, at the end of the day, it was still murder.  Still -- the showrunners like to have us empathize with our heroes when they do shitty things.  So, I think they wanted to get something as an example of things that a normal Dean would regret (and we could understand that) while NOT losing our sympathies. 

Personally? I'm side-eyeing the heavy use of cliches for the victims but I understand the writer's choices. 

- Having Dean say that maybe he has it coming lets us know that somewhere in there, even Demon!Dean can tell the difference between right and wrong. He is just CHOOSING wrong because it's what he has to do.  Perhaps he could try to take his own life -- but that didn't work out well for Cain.  He can try to not kill, but that's not going well.  So... Dean is getting by. 

 

I say all this because what we didn't see what Dean murdering those kids that insulted him (which I think was the point -- Dean is pissed but he has some control). We haven't seen Dean just blindly executing humans.  He kills for a reason (it's what he said to Crowley last year). His reasons are getting thinner and thinner but it's still not yet mindless.

Edited October 17, 2014 by SueB

[catrox14]

Well, thanks SueB. That's kind of you to say. I freaking love this episode for Dean reasons.

 

I am kind of obsessed with what he's doing and I just am so satisfied that Jensen is giving us what we want but not in any way I expected. I knew Dean would be scary but I thought it would be a more I dunno, bold? But then I don't know why I think that because Jensen is so internal and of course he would do something unique. I can say that Demon!Dean is not like any other demon. And fuck it, it's awesome :(

 

Like the scene with Crowley. I am so in love with that scene because of how it builds a moment at a time. It's little things in Dean's face. Little annoyances that play out on his face, that grow to 'fuck you". I LOOOOOOVED his line reading of "Whatever I want".

 

Jensen makes me believe that Dean really can and will do whatever he wants. Like I think Dean knows exactly how powerful he is and he's choosing to sit on it. At first I didn't think I would like that idea but it really does match with all that we know about Dean.

 

Dean has always been confident in his hunting skills, his ability to fight, he's a tactician more than a strategist. And Dean has never apologized for his confidence. So now with demon!Dean he knows he has more power than he's ever had before and IMO he's biding his time now.

 

Jensen imbues demon!Dean with dread (?)What I mean is that I am getting that Dean is a powderkeg and every scene I am just waiting for something terrible or frightening or even funny but scary to happen. It's beyond edginess. It's just bah I can't find the word, that something is just lurking under the surface that can explode at any moment.  And that scene with Crowley is the perfect example. And it's just the most subtle change. And Jesus, Jensen's face. 

 

Even in the scene when he beats the crap out of Cole. He's smiling but holy crap, that smile is filled with I don't even know the word! It's not evil, it's not even power per se. It's not joy. It's almost a little glee? Supreme confidence and no fear? And that makes demon!Dean really truly frightening.

 

Just ALL the awards to Jensen. All of them.

[Kanner]

Did I miss the payoff for whatever Crowley had to "share" with Dean at the end of the scene where he pitched him Mindy to kill?

[SueB]

 

Did I miss the payoff for whatever Crowley had to "share" with Dean at the end of the scene where he pitched him Mindy to kill?

No.  And I don't know if it was an editing gaff or we'll see it come back and be explained. I wonder about that too.

[DittyDotDot]

I thought the payoff was to feed the Mark. Crowley gets his soul contract and Dean gets to kill which apparently keeps him from going full on batshit kill-crazy.

[Kanner]

Dean is about to leave after accepting and then Crowley says "Oh, there's something else that I need to share with you". Then the scene cuts. So this is not about the deal they just made.

[catrox14]

Maybe it was that Sam knows Dean's alive?

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I see. I assumed Crowley told him about Sam being close, didn't one of his minions mention it just before Dean came in?

 

Dean already knew that Sam knew he was alive...Crowley spilled the beans in the previous episode. Plus, I would think the note Dean left for Sam was a red herring in that regard.

Edited October 18, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Pete Martell]

 

And here in lies the biggest problem with Cole and the timeline they set up. Pre-first season, Dean had not hunted a demon, nor a shifter, nor vampire, nor almost any monster they've showcased over the years. Most of the monsters we've seen have been first time hunts for the boys at some point since the show started in 2005. So, I was thinking it's either got to be that Dean killed the monster that killed Cole's dad and Cole just assumed Dean did it or that's not actually Dean but a shifter or something else that killed Cole's Dad. But now I see another possibility. Whatever Cole's father was may be something we've never seen before--similar to how they did the kitsune with Amy in S7. Of course, that would mean that they actually did do a little research before they started down this road, which I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn they did not. Rugaru retcon last season ring a bell?

 

I thought Dean had knowledge of demons pre-series, even if it wasn't as prevalent as what started happening once Meg came along.

 

I don't really care that much about continuity errors - the show gave up on continuity somewhere in season 4, so if I care, I'm a hypocrite for still watching this long - but casting an actor who looks so much older than the role gets in the way...seriously. Why not say John killed his father? They could have Matt Cohen playing John (he would look like John around that age, as he's not as young as he was in season 5). They could have set it 20 years earlier instead of 11.

 

I also don't understand why he has that frou-frou attempt at a designer haircut. 

 

They did a good job with making Jensen seem close to that age. Jensen has one of those faces that is both obviously older and yet somehow, in some angles, shockingly close to how he looked back then. It worked, and they didn't push it too far by keeping him onscreen too long.

 

Seeing him in another version of that jacket reminded me of how much Jensen channels the various shades JDM brought to the role (heft, weariness, flashes of vulnerability). I don't think Dean is John (I don't even think Sam is John, even though that's the more popular fandom meta and they have more similarities), but they really blended together in my mind in that moment. 

 

As for the episode - well, it was better than I thought it would be. Not great, but good, and the aimlessness of the premiere made more sense with this material.

 

The whole theme seems to be that everyone is at a loss of what to be, Dean most of all, and they captured that listlessness well enough with his character. That he just doesn't care is what makes him the most frightening and unpredictable. 

 

Sam is just burnt out and yet still determined to bring Dean back, and that ragged fight in him, his resignation to death, make him more interesting and make his plight more compelling than more throaty declarations of brotherly love. I liked that he managed to get free while being tortured. The only scene that didn't work for me was his schoolmarm reaction to Crowley at the end of the episode. If they aren't going to kill Crowley they need to stop having Sam threaten to do it.

 

Cas' material in this episode was what one would call "fanservice" - Cas is sick and a woobie and kind women take care of him. Cas bonds with an adorable child. Yet I don't mind, as it's a nice alternative to him just being tortured again, and a lot of fans genuinely did want to see these types of scenes. His scene with Metatron also worked (even with some overripe dialogue that was OOC for Cas - Cas wouldn't talk about a "happy place"), as it had more bite than usual in their exchanges. 

 

I'm so bored of Metatron, but I was impressed with Curtis Armstrong's work here, at how feral and just plain nasty and pathetic he was with all the "grandeur" torn away from him. He's another character who shouldn't be there anymore, but Armstrong makes you take notice in spite of everything. I liked the punchiness in Metatron here, and his desperate to yet again mindfuck angels who are still too stupid to fully see through him.

 

I don't want to see Hannah fall in love with Cas and I hope that does not happen.

 

Cole is an annoying plot device, Colton Haynes dehydrated, and his backstory is a cliche of a cliche, but I did enjoy the fight scene with Dean. Seeing him have his big moment of vengeance only to be humiliated was a nice twist on the expected. Now that he's going to learn about demons and probably be even more of a boring nuisance, I wonder if this episode (and his kung fu hilarity and Yoko primal screams) will be his high point. I hope not. 

 

I like Crowley's New Wave associates, who have as little use for him as I do at the moment.

 

Crowley just felt stale here, and I'm so bored with the gay jokes. Mark Sheppard deserves better material. Maybe now that he's all alone he will get it. 

[catrox14]

Did you guys notice the music? I think it was some new themes for demon Dean and Cas. I liked it quite a bit.

[DittyDotDot]

I thought Dean had knowledge of demons pre-series, even if it wasn't as prevalent as what started happening once Meg came along.

 

I didn't mean to imply he had no knowledge of them, but I thought Phantom Traveler was the first demon either of them hunted. Bobby also mentions at the end of S1 that usually he only hears of one or two demon possessions per year prior to the happenings in S1, so I don't think there was a whole lot of demon activity to hunt prior to that. Doesn't mean Dean or Sam weren't familiar with the lore though.

 

I agree the age of the actor is a problem, but I can easily ignore stuff like that. Actors are rarely age appropriate--there's also no way Jeffery Dean Morgan could have legitimately spawned these two guys either since he's only like 10 years older than Jensen and looked maybe two years older, IMO. I don't disagree that it wasn't a foolish move on the show's part though.

[ParadoxLost]

I don't know what the casting directors and writers were smoking when they cast/wrote this Cole storyline.  I can't get into it at all.  What possessed them to cast someone who is nearly 40 as a 24 year old.  Not only that but give him life experiences that are beyond what a 24 year old could have.  At least have the guy know about Hunters and stuff because obviously some sort of time travel is involved like specialized training for 15 years and then returning to the point he left.

[catrox14]

"They did a good job with making Jensen seem close to that age. Jensen has one of those faces that is both obviously older and yet somehow, in some angles, shockingly close to how he looked back then. It worked, and they didn't push it too far by keeping him onscreen too long."

That was a CGI effect

[dr pepper]

I thought they came fairly close with Sam just yelling back in Cole's face as Cole - it appeared anyway - rebroke Sam's arm? Though yeah a little continuity that Sam's been through torture much much worse than this might have been nice. I would like to have seen Sam laugh as Cole threatened his knee with the hammer, though... but I guess they're trying to pretend that Sam is not half insane. ; ) . Yeah good luck with that. Though if they wanted to have Sam intimidated, they could've gone with some triggered flashbacks or something... and that might've kept some continuity.

 

[Your comment reminded me of an awesome fanfic (of sorts) I read called something like "How to Survive a Winchester" which listed "rules" for coming out of an encounter with Sam and Dean unscathed (supposedly written by Chuck). It was really funny, and one of the rules was (paraphrase) "Don't try to torture Sam Winchester. It won't turn out well." The explanation being that Sam would egg you on describing the tortures he went through in hell while laughing maniacally and if that didn't scare the crap out of you... then Dean would find you and make you pay for trying to torture his brother. I'm still waiting for the last 20 rules - then I'm gonna put his in the fanfic recommendation thread. Point being that  - yes, I agree this would be more believable than a Sam afraid of regular torture - which seems to forget canon that he really shouldn't be by this point.]

 

That part bothered me too. To see someone sho's been through what Sam has been through fliching from that kind of threat? No. He's been in far greater pain than that beofre and just kept on going.

As for "Reichenbach", when i saw that tile, i assumed that Metatron was going to regain his function as "The Author" and try to write the brothers out.

[Pete Martell]

"They did a good job with making Jensen seem close to that age. Jensen has one of those faces that is both obviously older and yet somehow, in some angles, shockingly close to how he looked back then. It worked, and they didn't push it too far by keeping him onscreen too long."

That was a CGI effect

 

I read that they did use some CGI, but too much would have been fake and obvious, so I think it must have been a mix.

That part bothered me too. To see someone sho's been through what Sam has been through fliching from that kind of threat? No. He's been in far greater pain than that beofre and just kept on going.

 

I think anyone, even Sam, might flinch at the thought of their kneecap being broken and being permanently injured. If he'd said "uncle," then I would have been bothered by it, but he was likely still not going to agree to Cole's demands.

I don't know what the casting directors and writers were smoking when they cast/wrote this Cole storyline.  I can't get into it at all.  What possessed them to cast someone who is nearly 40 as a 24 year old.  Not only that but give him life experiences that are beyond what a 24 year old could have.  At least have the guy know about Hunters and stuff because obviously some sort of time travel is involved like specialized training for 15 years and then returning to the point he left.

 

Clearly they just wanted the image of a child destroyed by his father's murder, but they could have had him as being 18 and just coming back from war, or something, and finding Dean at his father's corpse. 

 

There's just no reason for him to be 24.

 

The only way I'm really going to get into his story is if they do like the last season of SOAP where Billy's teacher/ex-lover kept coming up with all these grandoise plans to kill him and his family, and it would always fail, and she'd run out in a fit.

[mertensia]

But Pete Martell then we need to have Chuck and Bob on the show! Danny would be too dumb to have survived though.

Yeah the threat of being kneecapped would make anyone but Wolverine wince.

[SueB]

 

I think anyone, even Sam, might flinch at the thought of their kneecap being broken and being permanently injured.

 

Yeah the threat of being kneecapped would make anyone but Wolverine wince.

 

My thoughts exactly.  If Cas was at full power he MIGHT get knee function back.  But getting kneecapped is a permanent disability.  Which is why it's a good threat. 

 

A better comeback would be -- even if I knew where Dean was, I'd only be sending you to your death.  But I totally give Sam a pass on being alarmed by the hammer to the knee. 

[AwesomO4000]

{exerpts} I think anyone, even Sam, might flinch at the thought of their kneecap being broken and being permanently injured. If he'd said "uncle," then I would have been bothered by it, but he was likely still not going to agree to Cole's demands..

 

The only way I'm really going to get into his story is if they do like the last season of SOAP where Billy's teacher/ex-lover kept coming up with all these grandoise plans to kill him and his family, and it would always fail, and she'd run out in a fit.

 

But Pete Martell then we need to have Chuck and Bob on the show! Danny would be too dumb to have survived though.

Yeah the threat of being kneecapped would make anyone but Wolverine wince.

 

My thoughts exactly.  If Cas was at full power he MIGHT get knee function back.  But getting kneecapped is a permanent disability.  Which is why it's a good threat. 

 

A better comeback would be -- even if I knew where Dean was, I'd only be sending you to your death.  But I totally give Sam a pass on being alarmed by the hammer to the knee. 

 

All good points, I take back my original complaint about Sam's reaction to the kneecap threat. But perhaps he could've seemed a little more confident and/or less rattled until that point, maybe?

 

As for Chuck and Bob, mertensia, oh, yes please. Chuck and Bob were my favorites on Soap, and with my somewhat evil mind, a Supernatural version of Chuck and Bob could be completely twisted and awesome *... although I suppose Mr. Fizzles is somewhat horrifying in his own way, that's not the way that I mean. ; ) . And also definitely; Danny would've been monster bait (siren, vampire, demon) before the episode opening credits rolled.

 

* Maybe "Bob" could know Latin or Enochian instead of Spanish. With "Chuck" saying "don't ask me, I don't understand Latin/Enochian."

[Infie]

I've been liking the Cole storyline. Probably because I rewatched all the seasons over the summer, and the one where Dean killed Sam's old friend (Jewel Staite) with her son in the doorway. He tells the kid he better be good, and the kid is all "I am going to find you and kill you for this". I've always hoped that this idea was followed up on; that to some people, the Winchesters are the monsters - and that it's not necessarily the vampires and the demons who are going to think so.

I do think it's different than the Gordon storyline -- Gordon went off his nut about Sam, but it wasn't because Sam hurt him personally in any way. Gordon just saw anything not pure as needing killing. Cole, I think, is a completely different kind of storyline.

[Julia]

I've been liking the Cole storyline. Probably because I rewatched all the seasons over the summer, and the one where Dean killed Sam's old friend (Jewel Staite) with her son in the doorway. He tells the kid he better be good, and the kid is all "I am going to find you and kill you for this". I've always hoped that this idea was followed up on; that to some people, the Winchesters are the monsters - and that it's not necessarily the vampires and the demons who are going to think so.

 

The problem is that the kid wasn't a person. The kid was a ghoul. 

[Hana Chan]

Seriously though... what the hell was Dean doing to let Cole see him after he just ganked the kid's father? He could have been out the door long before the kid had the mental wherewithal to go even think about looking for his father's killer? But Dean just strolls into the room and lets Cole get a good long look at him with the bloody knife in his hand. That was pure amateur hour on Dean's part.

[supposebly]

 

to some people, the Winchesters are the monsters - and that it's not necessarily the vampires and the demons who are going to think so.

 

I was hoping for something like this for a long time but with the Cole story, it's annoying because we never heard of him before and now Dean is, at least by most people's definition, an actual monster, not one that is defined by his actions but by the mark.

I was hoping for something like this with the episode with the guy who became a serial killer after he was possessed by a demon. But then they sort of explained it that he had it in him already, so the Winchesters had really nothing to do with it. I would have liked to have someone who saw their "work" but wouldn't know what it is about and sees them as monsters. Realistically, they don't fit in a "regular" world, so that perspective would have been interesting to explore without blaming the perp or someone else for what happens.

It has been said that they might be heroes for saving the world, etc. but that doesn't mean most people wouldn't be very afraid of them. Hell, almost everyone is afraid of them.

[Aeryn13]

 

I would have liked to have someone who saw their "work" but wouldn't know what it is about and sees them as monsters.

 

The closest the show might ever come to this was a little throwaway scene in the episode with the Golem where that Aaron guy is sitting in the car while they warm their hands over the cozy fire of a burning body.   

[supposebly]

 

where that Aaron guy is sitting in the car while they warm their hands over the cozy fire of a burning body.

I adore that scene!

[Pete Martell]

Seriously though... what the hell was Dean doing to let Cole see him after he just ganked the kid's father? He could have been out the door long before the kid had the mental wherewithal to go even think about looking for his father's killer? But Dean just strolls into the room and lets Cole get a good long look at him with the bloody knife in his hand. That was pure amateur hour on Dean's part.

 

That was from Cole's POV. We don't really know Dean's thought process. Even if it was a screwup, it wouldn't shock me, as he was brash enough in the early days to mess up a few times. 

Edited October 18, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Demented Daisy]

Seriously though... what the hell was Dean doing to let Cole see him after he just ganked the kid's father?

 

You're assuming that Dean killed the father.  I still think it's possible that Dean killed the monster that killed Daddy.  Maybe Dean came back to check on the guy, hope he wasn't dead, etc.  

[Pete Martell]

I was hoping for something like this for a long time but with the Cole story, it's annoying because we never heard of him before and now Dean is, at least by most people's definition, an actual monster, not one that is defined by his actions but by the mark.

 

Since he'll be judged based on his actions when he was a human, and there are 25 years of story for Dean we don't know, I don't mind any of this. What bothers me is I just don't know where this is going, what the point will be. If Cole either turns bad/becomes a menace, it's derivative, and they can't even go the Bonanza route where he kills someone close to Dean, because who is there to kill? Cas? Sam? Do we need that again? Or the first 10 times? And if Cole becomes a good guy, or good-ish guy, aren't there already 4 white, brooding, sarcastic guys on the show, 3 of whom are driven by haunted pasts or vengeance? 

 

I saw some people saying he must be in line for a spinoff. I doubt that (I think the CW may just spin off any random DC character), but that would make more sense to me than the other ideas.

[rue721]

I think the point of Cole is that Dean is setting him up to become a hunter, that's how Dean's going to torment Cole (or at least set him up for endless torment). Which is kind of clever, in a way. There's kind of a weird horrible/cursed thing about how the Winchesters constantly *constantly* die but can't stay dead. It seems like there's zero escape from the hunting life, they're doomed to be in it (literally) forever, they're not going to have peace. So by making Cole into a hunter, Dean is setting him up for that. Even Vanilla!Dean's supposed to be good at torturing, and tbh, that's legit the most thoughtful/interesting/efficable way of torturing someone that I've ever seen on this show. So, props to Alistair and Dean's own ingenuity, I guess?

 

I watched Dark Side of the Moon today, and remember how Dean was complaining about how in heaven, everything is static/unchanging and everything is fake? I guess that's probably how he would see the (non-heaven, regular) world now. I mean, he really belongs in hell, and dead, but he's still there in some random bar drinking beer and singing karaoke and getting picked up by Sam, for the n-th time. He's sort of made his own hell, out of what should have been a perpetual heaven (triplets, latex, etc).

 

Maybe the show is edging more toward hell-in-the-Paradise-Lost-sense and away from hell-in-the-Dante's-Inferno sense? As something you carry with you rather than as a place you go? Because what I think is interesting/frightening about Demon!Dean is that he's obviously so similar to Human!Dean that it's just like he moved another notch on a continuum by becoming a demon, but apparently he was already on that continuum beforehand. I also love that Demon!Dean is so similar to Vanilla!Dean that there's not really a way for Sam (or honestly, for Dean) to imagine them as two seperate people. This is obviously Dean-but-a-demon, not an entirely new entity. That's genuinely nightmarish, imo.

 

Sam was really pretty interesting to me in this episode, at how quiet and matter-of-fact he was. He seemed like somebody with a gameplan already in place. When Dean was fighting Cole, wasn't Sam right there in the doorway, just watching? I guess Sam used Cole as a distraction, frankly, so he could get close with the cuffs and holy water. (That Cole didn't seem to notice that while he was quipping/fighting with Dean, Sam was just sitting right on the sidelines not doing anything, seems ridiculous. Wouldn't Cole expect Sam to help his brother? They weren't in a refereed boxing match or something. On the other hand, Cole had been studying up on "every" martial art and apparently devoted at least a hefty portion of his life to taking on Dean Winchester, yet he didn't even know that supernatural stuff exists, so I guess he's not the sharpest tool in the shed and my expectations are probably too high. Well, anyway. I don't mind Cole in theory but he seems like such a doofus that it's hard to care about him as a character in his own right. But we're probably not meant to care much about him anyway, I guess, seeing as it's going to be pretty hard to drum up a lot of sympathy for a character who was introduced by kidnapping and torturing Sam. I know the guys are supposedly master torturers at this point *shudder* so I should give Cole somewhat of a hypocrisy!pass but I still find the torturing horrible).

 

Anyway, to go back to Sam and his eerie calm:  when Sam was in the bar (one of my favorite scenes of the episode), and he said he was taking Dean home and pulled out those handcuffs, like Dean was just supposed to put them on -- I wonder what he was up to? It was sort of like when a magician makes a big show of holding out one object, so that you miss when he's doing the actual magic trick with his other hand. Hey, maybe literally, maybe they're going to work JP's sling into the story. LOL.

 

Or maybe Sam really does have no tricks up his sleeve (really, though?! he's not an idiot), since he did also seem sort of butter-wouldn't-melt-in-his-mouth in other parts of the episode. Like when Sam pointed out that Dean showed he still had empathy by letting Cole live. Honestly, I don't think he was *wrong*, but I don't think he was right for the right reasons. I think that Dean must still have empathy, in terms of understanding what other people are thinking, because he's able to get into people's heads enough to screw with them. I think he just doesn't have compassion anymore. And I did think that Dean's response to that was pretty chilling ("it won't be a mercy when I do it to you, either" or something similar?), it sounded like he already had something up his sleeve that he was planning to do to Sam? Or maybe Sam was acting so innocent to lull Demon!Dean into a false sense of security, I dunno.

 

Anyway, I enjoyed this episode a lot, much more than I expected, frankly. Of course there were holes and dull spots (for example, I was totally distracted by Metatron's prison outfit, couldn't imagine how they got him in that straight jacket, or even why), but the Sam/Dean setup is pretty good, imo, and that's really all I ask.

[NoWillToResist]

Siblings Sam and Dean have been mistaken as a couple before. In this ep, angelic siblings Hannah and Cas were mistaken as a couple.

 

Is it too much to hope that this mean TPTB don't plan on taking the romance route with Hannah/Cas?

Edited October 21, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[miles2go]

Siblings Sam and Dean have been mistaken as a couple before. In this ep, angelic siblings Hannah and Cas were mistaken as a couple.

 

Is it too much to hope that this mean TPTB don't plan on taking the romance route with Hannah/Cas?

I'm hoping they won't take that path.  But since it's been mentioned, I'm afraid they might.

[catrox14]

I think it's a good chance they would go the Hannah/Cas romance route. But have any angels ever actually be in love with other angels in the sexytimes romance way? I thought maybe Cas/Anna had a thing but isn't romance between angels sort of non-existent?

 

The only way the Cas/Hannah thing would work is if Hannah chooses to be human along with Cas. OH gods that's so going to happen isn't it? I can see it now. And then Hannah is killed by Metatron and Cas has a reason to fight Metatron on a personal level. Gods they so would do this wouldn't they?

 

And is Hannah in a meatsuit or is she a born angel in her own meatsuit?

[DittyDotDot]

I think Hannah is possessing a human.

 

I imagine they may not take Hannah and Cas into full on sexy times, but probably will have her come to a place of "caring" about Castiel and learning to appreciate humanity through the experience. Blech. I'd prefer to see them rip off all their clothes, personally. At this point I don't care if it makes sense story-wise, at least it'd be something interesting.

[millennium]

Always last to arrive.   Thank you, Hulu, for making my comments mostly gratuitous at this point.

 

I liked the slow burn of this episode.   Demon Dean is more fun to watch than drunken, self-loathing ordinary Dean.   Jensen's characterization of Demon Dean would have been perfect for a bad guy or morally-dubious hero in an old western.

 

Which reminds me, the cowboy hat photo .. pure genius.

 

I have to concur with everyone that the angel storyline is DOA.   Cas is becoming more and more marginalized.   Sam tells him Dean is a demon and Cas responds how?   By doing nothing?

 

The show has been burdened with an undercurrent of suck for several seasons now ... probably back to when Lucifer got into Sam's head.     The Leviathan arc made me want to abandon the show for good.   This Angel War led by the fatally miscast Curtis Armstrong is testing my patience too.   Whatever happened to the obscure monsters from world folklore the Winchesters used to fight from week to week?  Did they all renounce their ways and go gently into that good night?   Crowley's a funny character, but by pitting Sam and Dean against the King of Hell himself, the writers have effectively defanged any lesser demon, entity or monster they might introduce in the future.   I remember when Grim Reapers were the menace.  What's the Grim Reaper threat level compared to the King of Hell?  Negligible, I'd say.

[SueB]

 

What's the Grim Reaper threat level compared to the King of Hell?

Depends on if it's your time.  Bobby ran away from his and turned into a ghost.  Now personally I think Bobby did okay as a ghost for a while but his hatred of Dick Roman really sped him along to 'vengeful' quickly.  And then Crowley paid his rent-a-reaper and took it to hell. What is my point?...I had a point...oh yeah....I think the oldies but goodies are still bad news.

Edited October 27, 2014 by SueB

[Altered Reality]

This episode will be replaying tonite.  Anyone else planning to watch?  I haven't seen it yet and it's one I don't know that much about.

[AwesomO4000]

This episode will be replaying tonite.  Anyone else planning to watch?  I haven't seen it yet and it's one I don't know that much about.

 

I probably won't be watching tonight, but only because I couldn't wait for it. After watching "Black" last week, I didn't want to have to wait for this week since I had the episode taped on VHS (I know, I know, but I don't like change, so you kids just stay off my lawn), so I watched both "Reichenbach" and "Soul Survivor" again a bit ago. I enjoyed the episodes, and the later in the episode Castiel and Hanna parts were at least  a little bit amusing for this one... I especially loved Cas' (paraphrase) "That sounds like some pretty amazing snot" (it makes sense in context). I tended to more fast forward through one or two of their sit and chats in "Soul Survivor" than this episode, and didn't really tune in to the Cas/Hanna stuff then until

Crowley showed up

.

 

All in all though, I enjoyed this episode, and I would recommend it. I was impressed with both Jared and Jensen's work here, and although Jared looks a bit worse for wear, it actually fits his character's state in this episode, so just lends to his portrayal ... and kudos to him for going that extra mile to let himself look that ragged for the part, because yeah ouch, it's kinda heartbreaking how beat down he/Sam is here. Jensen does a good job of making demon Dean somewhat like Dean, but also definitely not Dean. The episode kind of ends on a cliffhanger again though, so then you might want to see "Soul Survivor" and may have to wait.

[catrox14]

Oh I'll be watching. I need my fix

[Altered Reality]

Good to know you recommend it AwesomO4000.  I'll just have to wait for Soul Survivor (I expect it will play next week) as I don't even have a VCR to record to anymore.  It's either that or wait until the DVDs come out in Sept. and I don't want to wait that long!

[catrox14]

Edited June 4, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

Oh I'll be watching. I need my fix

 

We will too catrox14!

It's a favorite of mine because of this;

"My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

 

Mick and I howled! Than Mick said to me:

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

At that point I guess a light bulb when off over his head, and he screamed (really) "I'm pussy-whipped!"

 

Very bad for a Biker. I think he went to the garage to bond with his Harley for a while...

[catrox14]

LOL I think Mick is realizing that his sexual orientation is Dean. 

[Mick Lady]

Heh! I'll tell him you said that! But only because he adores you!

[rue721]

You're cracking me up, Mick Lady.

 

FYI, these episodes are getting put back on Hulu as they're re-aired, too. So tomorrow, they should have both Black and Reichenbach online. Or, if you don't have Hulu Plus, I think Reichenbach should be online in a week?

 

Hopefully, I'll get a chance to (re)watch both sometime tomorrow or maybe Friday. They're actually a couple of my favorite episodes of the season, Reichenbach especially. Demon!Dean was unexpectedly interesting, imo. I enjoyed how much he still seemed like Dean, but was also incredibly creepy. So much potential! That I guess will have to be realized only in fan fiction, le sigh.

 

Lately, I've been working Wednesday nights most weeks, so I haven't gotten a chance to watch live in a while. Booooooo. So I've been watching them the next day, during my workout. But it's honestly kind of fun watching all these fight scenes and getting the adrenaline up while lifting (very, very light) weights and doing pushups and stuff. So there's something to be said for watching at 9am rather than 9pm, LOL.

Edited June 4, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

This episode made me fall in love with Demon!Dean after my complete and total apoplexy at Dean becoming a demon at the end of 9.23.  I was fucking DONE with the show. I was gutted and destroyed...and to be fair, I'm not really over it either.

 

But fucking Jensen Ackles...that little shit...made me love demon!Dean

[Altered Reality]

I think I liked this episode better than Black.  I found Demon!Dean fascinating.  He was Dean and so not at the same time, rue721 you got it right, he's creepy.  Damn Mr. Ackles is a ridiculously good actor.

 

I still don't like Cole, in fact after his "enhanced interrogation" scene with Sam, I actively dislike him.  That doesn't happen with me very often.

 

Mick Lady  I loved the Princess Bride line too. I laughed loud enough that I startled the cat sitting beside me.  She was not impressed.  I also loved the pic on Crowley's phone of him and Demon!Dean in cowboy hats (and I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall when they shot that, I can imagine the shenanigans).

 

I'm still wondering if the actress who played Hanna pissed off the wardrobe department or something.  That outfit, yuck!  The scene between Cass and the little girl was priceless, snot rockets indeed. 

 

And after seeing the scene with Metatron, where he gives Cass the sneak peek (everybody dies), I'm really starting to wonder if the whole Darkness thing wasn't something he set up somehow. It seems exactly the sort of grandiose, but completely dickish move he'd pull.

 

Oh and poor, poor Baby. "Just a car"?  I don't think so.

[Mick Lady]

You're cracking me up, Mick Lady.

 

FYI, these episodes are getting put back on Hulu as they're re-aired, too. So tomorrow, they should have both Black and Reichenbach online. Or, if you don't have Hulu Plus, I think Reichenbach should be online in a week?

 

Hopefully, I'll get a chance to (re)watch both sometime tomorrow or maybe Friday. They're actually a couple of my favorite episodes of the season, Reichenbach especially. Demon!Dean was unexpectedly interesting, imo. I enjoyed how much he still seemed like Dean, but was also incredibly creepy. So much potential! That I guess will have to be realized only in fan fiction, le sigh.

 

Lately, I've been working Wednesday nights most weeks, so I haven't gotten a chance to watch live in a while. Booooooo. So I've been watching them the next day, during my workout. But it's honestly kind of fun watching all these fight scenes and getting the adrenaline up while lifting (very, very light) weights and doing pushups and stuff. So there's something to be said for watching at 9am rather than 9pm, LOL.

 

Thanks rue721! We don't have Hulu Plus, but I'm looking into it now. Moving to Idaho from NYC has changed our TV viewing a lot!! Thanks for the tip!

 

Altered Reality, it's great to find another fan! TWoP turned us on to this movie, and it's been a fav ever since. Gootta love that place. OH, and "Baby"? Just a car?! You should hear the tone in Mick's voice when he calls his Harley "Baby". Hell of a lot more sensual than when he calls me that! I feel Dean's "Baby's" pain.

 

I am getting worried about Mick and catrox14 though. He's way too fond of her! I swear I'm going to make him start posting himself. I will not be a go-between!

Edited June 5, 2015 by Mick Lady