S10.E02: Reichenbach

[AwesomO4000]

I can understand the idea that everyone has a dark side. We already know Dean has a dark side. But I don't think Dean's dark side is fueled by a desire to fondle women who don't consent. NOW if it were fondling demons or torturing demons because it's payback for what they did to him in hell and out of hell? YUP I'M ON board that train. But to think he was somehow born with that places of darkness that he would use against humans with the right motivation? I can't buy that.

I thought the mark was solely about making Dean into a murdering murderer that murders and nothing else. I never had the impression that Cain as a demon was doing anything other than killing. So why would the Mark make Dean into that psycho rapist or that it taps into latent desires. I think whatever it is that is making Dean be this way it's tied into Crowley and Dean's prior Hell time.

 

I agree that the mark is affecting Dean's desire to kill. Actually it's more a physical need. The mark doesn't care even if Dean wants to kill or not - it physically drives him to kill. However as part of that directive, it has also twisted Dean's soul into something demonic - all the better for Dean to kill with. With that twisting comes other consequences, and a small part of that in Dean's case seems to be some base desires. Do I think Dean has latent sexual predator traits in him?... no. Just as I didn't think regular Sam had some latent desire to go around sleeping with married women, beat a cop almost to death, or kill a woman just because she was a liability and that his soullessness just allowed him to do that. Soulless Sam was a different "animal." And I think it's the same - maybe even worse - for Dean. Dean's soul is not missing but even worse, it's twisted and demonic, so with his new "perspective" I'm surprised this is all Dean is doing myself.

 

An interesting thing about the "Cherry Pie" scene for me was Dean's comment: "But the song isn't finished yet." It was almost like Dean was insulted/pissed off that the dancer was bailing before her "job" was done even though he was being a jerk about it and doing things she didn't want him to... which if you think about it, people have been doing to Dean his entire life - i.e. people and beings of various sorts expecting him to do his "job" even as they make him do all sorts of things he hates while getting it done, yet they expect Dean to do it and not complain. (Did I just compare Dean to a harassed exotic dancer on a poll? I think I just did - heh.). Do I think regular Dean would want  to do something like that even in the back of his mind? No, but a Dean with a twisted soul - I would be surprised if he didn't. Why should demon Dean even care what the exotic dancer wanted? No one cared what he wanted, and now that he has the power to not have to be treated that way anymore and a twisted soul on top of that - demon Dean is expecting everyone else to take their turn and dance monkey dance. Besides, Dean knew the bouncer was there, so it was a win-win. Either the exotic dancer would be swayed to take his harassment or he'd start a fight with the bouncer and get his violence on. Dean's a demon right now... to me it's in character that he acts like one a little bit, especially with the chip on his shoulder that he's had to take it for so long, it's his turn now to dish it out.

 

And, seriously, Sam should have laughed in his face every time Cole tried to threaten/intimidate him.

 

I thought they came fairly close with Sam just yelling back in Cole's face as Cole - it appeared anyway - rebroke Sam's arm? Though yeah a little continuity that Sam's been through torture much much worse than this might have been nice. I would like to have seen Sam laugh as Cole threatened his knee with the hammer, though... but I guess they're trying to pretend that Sam is not half insane. ; ) . Yeah good luck with that. Though if they wanted to have Sam intimidated, they could've gone with some triggered flashbacks or something... and that might've kept some continuity.

 

[Your comment reminded me of an awesome fanfic (of sorts) I read called something like "How to Survive a Winchester" which listed "rules" for coming out of an encounter with Sam and Dean unscathed (supposedly written by Chuck). It was really funny, and one of the rules was (paraphrase) "Don't try to torture Sam Winchester. It won't turn out well." The explanation being that Sam would egg you on describing the tortures he went through in hell while laughing maniacally and if that didn't scare the crap out of you... then Dean would find you and make you pay for trying to torture his brother. I'm still waiting for the last 20 rules - then I'm gonna put his in the fanfic recommendation thread. Point being that  - yes, I agree this would be more believable than a Sam afraid of regular torture - which seems to forget canon that he really shouldn't be by this point.]

 

I was annoyed that Sam managed to sneak up on Dean and simply slap the cuffs on all easy-peasy.

 

Maybe that's the first time Dean got dosed with holy water and it took him off guard - that's the impression I got. Besides, I think Dean is half looking forward to his confrontation with Sam, so he's sort of going to roll with it for now. Dean has no long term plans. He can work with this new development and see it as a challenge.

 

Rewatching the last scene, I was struck by how great a job both Jensen and Jared did there. Jensen made demon Dean creepy as hell with his satisfied explanation of exactly what his "mercy" towards Cole signified with is show of teeth and slight smile of satisfaction. And Jared's face as Dean's explanation was given and he realized what he thought / hoped was mercy from Dean really was:I thought that was perfect and I could see not only Sam's hope fading fast, but a sort of horrible realization that maybe he was over his head and fear that he really might not get Dean back after all. Very well done on both of their parts.

Edited October 15, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[JennB]

It was either Robert Singer or Jeremy Carver who said before the season started that Demon Dean is like Dean without guilt. So Demon Dean can kill innocent people, be inappropriate with women, etc. because he doesn't have a conscience telling him not to. Regular Dean might beat up and threaten someone innocent, but he's not going to kill him. Regular Dean might want to have sex with a woman, but not be aggressive or inappropriate with her. He knows that's wrong. Demon Dean doesn't.

On the topic of the humanity - the Deanness - he still has, the song he was playing on the piano was "Hey Jude." His mother's favorite song.

[bethy]

Regular Dean might want to have sex with a woman, but not be aggressive or inappropriate with her.

 

 

Did this happen in the strip joint?  I have to admit I fast-forwarded over that point.

[Aeryn13]

 

I just assumed the father was a meat suit. I'm not sure why.

 

I think they are fucking up the timeline again because the date given by Cole was 2003. Which would mean pre-first Season. Yet, didn`t it have Dean sporting Ruby`s knife? Which, at least Carver should remember, entered the scene in Season 3. He was a writer during that Season and even if he wasn`t, some research wouldn`t hurt.

 

Going around stabbity-stab demonic vessels wasn`t even a thing pre-Season 3 and more 4ish and onward. Back then they only had their exorcisms. Which shouldn`t have left the guy gutted like there was no tomorrow. . 

 

[AwesomO4000]

Going around stabbity-stab demonic vessels wasn`t even a thing pre-Season 3 and more 4ish and onward. Back then they only had their exorcisms. Which shouldn`t have left the guy gutted like there was no tomorrow. . 

 

I agree. And after Cole's story where he gave the time frame, Sam mentioned "monsters" like vampires and werewolves. He didn't mention demons, because until Azazel showed up and started things with Sam's group of psychic kids, it was stated on the show that demons were very rarely encountered. I think it was more likely that Cole's father was something else, more along the lines of a rugaru, but the odd thing is the mode of death. Rugaru's I think need to be burned? (Am I remembering that right?) and werewolf requires a silver bullet. If Cole's father was what Amy was, Cole would also be that (if he were related by blood), so Cole's father might be something else we haven't seen yet where cutting the throat would kill him.

[Rammfan]

I thought it was Ruby's knife last night, too, but on rewatch on On Demand, it's not, it's just a hunting knife. I think a lot of questions are resolved on a rewatch. I'm too excited the first time through to notice everything.

 

I have no doubt, just like Sam doesn't, that if Dean actually killed Cole's father and wasn't just standing over a monster kill, then he had a good reason.

 

I loved everything about this episode, and even more on the rewatch, even the angel parts.

 

I loved everything about Sam so far this season. THIS is the Sam that should always be, no "hit a dog" Sam, no "you think you're doing good but you're not" Sam. Maybe TPTB finally realized that their bond is why a lot of us watch. Sam was perfect, and Demon!Dean's reaction to him was perfect.

 

In fact, IMHO, *everything* about Demon!Dean is perfect. He is recognizably NOT Dean ("it's just a car," his ability to laugh in the face of Sam's puppy-dog eyes, etc.) but he is *still* even with the demonicity, *still* Dean. A non-Dean demon would have killed everyone in the strip club and raped the dancer. Demon!Dean did not. A non-Dean demon would have killed Lester AND his wife. Demon!Dean did not. I can't wait for Sam and Dean's "encounter" next week.

 

I'm wondering at the King of Hell backing down to Dean. Yeah, they "broke up" and he sold Dean out to Sam, but surely, as the KING he's more powerful than a new demon like Dean, isn't he? He could do worse than that to Dean. Or is Dean more along the lines of Abbadon? Is he a Knight of Hell because of the MOC and thus more powerful than a former crossroads demon? Couldn't Crowley have snapped Dean into a cell in Hell, if Dean was just a run-of-the-mill demon? Crowley's demon flunkies seem afraid of their boss, but Dean for sure isn't, so why not? These are the sorts of things I ponder.

 

Of course, the acting is beyond perfect, as usual. Nothing less than than the top-shelf quality we have been spoiled with for the entirety of the show's life would have drawn me in and kept me in.

[NoWillToResist]

 

What I can't understand is why Dean is so pissed at Sam. There's a rage there that I just can't place. Maybe something happened in those 4 weeks.

 

I'm thinking it's probably buried resentment from their entire personal history. John Winchester made Sam Dean's responsibility. Dean had no childhood and essentially became a father at the age of, what, four? Dean was raised (or trained, IMO) for one purpose: protect Sammy.

 

Sam had someone looking out for him all his life, Sammy was the golden boy to be protected at all costs, Sam was the one who got out of the game and got to go to college, Sam didn't look for Dean when he was sent to Purgatory, Sam seemed to resent his brother's return, Sam was pissed (though, this one, I understand) about the whole Gadreel business etc. I imagine Dean feels very under-appreciated by his brother.

 

We've occasionally seen glimpses of Dean's rage, disappointment and resentment about all this, but this is probably the first time where Dean no longer has a filter of any kind or any desire to bury the rage...

Edited October 15, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

It was either Robert Singer or Jeremy Carver who said before the season started that Demon Dean is like Dean without guilt. So Demon Dean can kill innocent people, be inappropriate with women, etc. because he doesn't have a conscience telling him not to. Regular Dean might beat up and threaten someone innocent, but he's not going to kill him. Regular Dean might want to have sex with a woman, but not be aggressive or inappropriate with her. He knows that's wrong. Demon Dean doesn't.

    On the topic of the humanity - the Deanness - he still has, the song he was playing on the piano was "Hey Jude." His mother's favorite song.

 

 

Holy crap. I didn't even realize that about Hey Jude.

 

 

I feel like I'm not articulating my position well. 

 

With Soulless Sam, it was  the act of re-ensouling Sam that stopped him from doing evil things which implied that the soul itself is the filter and that it is inherently good. If the soul is inherently good then all humans are born with a soul that is inherently good. Demons are born human and not evil. They have their souls intact when they go to Hell and then over time their soul becomes tainted by torment and torture which makes them a demon.

 

My issue is with the idea that the Mark is simply removing a filter that allows Dean to behave in evil ways. That implies that Dean's soul was inherently evil from his birth to now and that it is the Mark that is removing whatever kept those evil desires in check vs what they did with Sam. It makes more sense to me that the Mark plus Crowley's shenanigans that have resulted in Dean's good soul being twisted into an evil soul. I can't get on board that it's just a filter and a lack of guilt that are driving Dean to murder and be inappropriate with women.

 

That probably makes no sense, but that is where I have trouble with this being part and parcel of the normal everyday Dean we knew before being murdered and made into a demon. I think Crowley knows way more about what the Mark would do to Dean's soul.

Edited October 15, 2014 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I think the show has shown humans crazy and evil enough to make you question the inherent purity of the soul.

 

However, in terms of Demon!Dean, I don`t think it is so different from Soulless!Sam on the matter you`re talking about. Having no soul and therefore no filter/conscience and having a twisted soul and therefore also no filter/conscience seems a lot alike. Not alike in how the characters act because Dean and Sam are different people with different Ids and tastes they might want to feed at any given time. But in that both versions aren`t working at full emotional and moral capacity.

 

So, I see it a bit like breaking your leg vs. having a bad case of the flu. Those two are not really alike but both WILL keep you from successfully running a marathon. In that, they are completely alike.  

[JennB]

 

Did this happen in the strip joint?  I have to admit I fast-forwarded over that point.

 

He was touching the stripper, and he offered her money for a private show, which got him thrown out.

 

 

What I can't understand is why Dean is so pissed at Sam. There's a rage there that I just can't place. Maybe something happened in those 4 weeks.

 

There probably was something in that time we haven't seen yet, and I also like what NoWillToResist said. It might also be as simple as Dean being mad that Sam wouldn't let him go when he wanted to leave. Sam probably said, "This isn't you," and Dean thinks this IS him.

[catrox14]

I guess I can't go with that analogy because to me the told us that as long as Sam's soul was intact it was what he needed to stop doing bad things. How does that not imply that the soul has some inherent goodness with it?

[ohjoy]

In the Holmesian canon (i.e., the stories written by Doyle) Reichenbach Falls was the place Holmes and Moriarty wrestled with each other and fell to their deaths (seemingly -- Doyle eventually revived Holmes).  In other words, a classic show-down between good and evil characters leading to the destruction of both.  How this applies to this particular story, though, is uncertain.  Cole and Dean have a big fight, but neither is destroyed or even significantly changed.  Dean is captured and loses his funny-looking knife, but he's still DemonDean.  Cole is still vengeful.

 

ETA:  I suppose the title could suggest that this incident will lead to the downfall of both characters?  

Total left-field speculation: What if the characters to which "Reichenbach" refers are Sam and Crowley, rather than Dean and Cole?

[catrox14]

I still wonder if that time line nugget in Blade runners is starting to show.

I hope that it's the grudge about Sam not looking for Dean in s8. I really do. Dean needed more than just a coin induced freak out to address that huge thing between them. 

[AwesomO4000]

My issue is with the idea that the Mark is simply removing a filter that allows Dean to behave in evil ways.

 

 

This might be the case if Dean were not a demon, but it's obvious to me that Dean is a demon, so that to me implies more than just removing a filter. As I postulated above, not only did the mark of Cain potentially remove a filter, it replaced it with a twisted one. It took Dean's conscience (soul) and warped it by turning Dean's soul into a demon soul. So for me that isn't implying that Dean's soul has always been "evil." It might be saying that Dean's twisted demon soul is "evil," but I would suspect that any twisted soul would turn out to be "evil." So far we haven't seen any demon who turned out to be in any way moral or good.

 

If the mark of Cain were going to remove a filter and Dean be "evil" because of it, I think the effect of that would've showed up before Dean became a demon. Dean still had the mark of Cain, he had killed Abbadon, and he was feeling the effects of having to kill, but he was still Dean and he still wanted to not become something evil - that was his dying request in fact. It took the mark actually twisting Dean's soul into a demon soul in order for the current behavior to show up. So to me that is saying that there is nothing inherently evil about Dean's soul... it's when Dean's soul gets twisted into a demon soul that it becomes evil, and it's even a lesser evil than most demon souls we have seen. Soulless Sam was just as evil if not more so with just a lack of filter. Dean is having to function with a twisted, tainted filter, so I'm surprised he's not worse than he is.

[Aeryn13]

 

I guess I can't go with that analogy because to me the told us that as long as Sam's soul was intact it was what he needed to stop doing bad things. How does that not imply that the soul has some inherent goodness with it?

 

But Dean doesn`t also have the "right kind of soul" at the moment due to its demonization. Why shouldn`t that yield similar results to a soul being missing wholesale? 

 

I agree that the show has (tentatively) gone with the notion of a human soul presenting goodness (notable exceptions on the show have been numerous) but if you look at the soul like a functioning engine to a car, then it doesn`t matter if the car has no engine or it`s completely broken down - the car won`t drive in either case. Just the way of fixing the problem is different.

 

I fully believe Dean`s soul has inherent goodness in it. But I also believe his soul is now the usual demonic black smoke. More or less at least. That`s why the beetle black eyes and that`s why the behaviour. Actually, that Demon!Dean is as "decent" as he is for a demon shows the opposite of a born-evil-thing to me. His true soul must have a fuckton of goodness that even little bits shine through while being a demon. Cain needed a couple thousand years to get it together again. Dean is doing pretty great, compared.   

[miles2go]

Total left-field speculation: What if the characters to which "Reichenbach" refers are Sam and Crowley, rather than Dean and Cole?

That's an interesting possibility.  Sam = Holmes and Crowley = Moriarty and, instead of a direct battle with each other, they're fighting for the soul of Dean.

[Mulva]

I still can't see any difference between Deanmon and regular Dean.

JP did a great job of showing Sam's exhaustion and despair.

Loved Crowley getting all sad about his bromance ending.

Angels - still boring.

[catrox14]

No I'm not saying Dean's soul is not now twisted and evil. That's obvious. I'm referring back to a post here that postulated that the Mark was just removing a filter from regular!Dean to allow him to do all these things. I'm saying that in order for it to be the removal of a filter that Dean's soul was suspect in the first place.

 

I am saying that the Mark and something else that we don't really know about yet has resulted in Dean's soul being twisted. I never was implying Dean is not a demon. I'm addressing the nature of his demonity vs regular!Dean's soul and the Mark.

[AwesomO4000]

I am saying that the Mark and something else that we don't really know about yet has resulted in Dean's soul being twisted.

 

Ah okay. For me though, "turned into a demon" is enough to be that something else that twisted his soul. From what I've seen in the verse so far, whatever it means for a soul to be a demon and however it happens, it's a pretty drastic change. Considering what the human soul usually looks like on the series and what a demon cloud looks like - the question is, is that the demon soul or is it more than that where the smoke is the entire demon consciousness and part of that smoke is the demon soul? In either case, if the demon soul is also in there, it no longer physically resembles a usual human soul, so for me that process in itself is likely enough to twist Dean's soul...

 

Now the exact process/change that occurs that turns the regular soul into a demon soul, I don't know, and if any character on the show does, they haven't shared the exact details... perhaps Cole might find out something in his research.

[mizkat]

Well hey, color me shocked, I liked this one. At first I was iffy, but it picked up as it went along.  Dean looks like he's having the time of his life and Sam looks like someone ran over him with a truck--twice. 

 

There are very little supernatural goings on, though. Can't Crowley just do the invisible choke hold on Dean? Or burn his innards from the inside out? He's a pretty impotent king of hell right now, I'm surprised he has any minions left. 

 

Asstiel made me chuckle. I hope Cas takes Metatron down. That will be the only thing that will make this s/l worth it. 

[blugirlami21]

I think it's hard for us to say what is really happening with Deanmon.  He's a unique creature at this point in time.  I don't think many humans were turned into demons by the moc if any so we really can't say how it's supposed to be affecting him.  I also think we have to remember that he had to die to become Deanmon.  Does that mean that human Dean is dead and this is just a meatsuit?  Sometime I feel like it is and sometimes I feel like it's just a demon version of Dean.

 

He definitely enjoys all the things Dean did when he was human but he doesn't regard human life or Sammy the way that he would have before the change.

 

I wouldn't say that he's angry with Sam so much as honest.  I don't think Dean ever allowed himself to honestly tell Sam the way that he felt being forced to raise Sam when John asked him to or to constantly be told that Sam's life is more important than his own.  Even though he claims otherwise there has to be some latent anger and resentment towards Sam especially during the times that Sam pushed him away or didn't show appreciation for the sacrifices Dean made for him.  I still remember Dean's heaven being time spent with Sam and Sam's being the opposite.

 

And now as Deanmon he doesn't have to hold any of his feelings back because he has no reason to.  He doesn't care about possibly hurting Sam's feelings or not being the son that John wanted him to be.  What a relief it must be for someone like Dean to be free like that.

[Amerilla]

On the shallow side: I loved that little girl's gut-busting giggle and Castiel's big smile. Yes, that whole storyline needs to go somewhere FAST, but as long as I can see Misha being cute every week, I can tolerate the slow burn. To a degree.

I suppose Reichenbach dosen't have to be a foreshadowing of just *one* story. If, at its core, it's about Good battling Evil, you have Dean's internal struggle with the Mark, Deanmon vs Sammy, Sam vs Crowley, Cas vs Deanmon, the Angels vs Metatron. And Deanmon letting Cain live is clearly going to come back and bite Dean in the ass later on.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Amerilla

[omelas]

I'm confused by the Dean's acting like a sexual psychopath posts. He had consensual (and apparently really good) sex in the first episode and offered a stripper money for a better show this episode - neither which is really an outrageous way to act. Did I miss something?

[catrox14]

I'm confused by the Dean's acting like a sexual psychopath posts. He had consensual (and apparently really good) sex in the first episode and offered a stripper money for a better show this episode - neither which is really an outrageous way to act. Did I miss something?

Dean was inappropriately touching the stripper. She told him to stop and he didn't. The bouncer then tried to make him stop and he punched the bouncer. It wasnt even so much the act of touching her but the attitude that it was his right to touch her. he was being threatening and intimidating towards her as well. for clarity, I never said Dean was a sexual

psychopath.

"And Deanmon letting Cain live is clearly going to come back and bite Dean in the ass later on."

why would that bite Dean in the ass.? Cain told him to come back and kill him once he was done with killing abbadon

Edited by Amerilla, 59 mi

Edited October 16, 2014 by catrox14

[omelas]

I guess miles vary - I'd say persistant - not threatening or intimidating and kinda douchey when he told her to pick it up but that's as far as I would go.

[catrox14]

I guess miles vary - I'd say persistant - not threatening or intimidating and kinda douchey when he told her to pick it up but that's as far as I would go.

 

I thought he was being threatening. He said, 'Here, pick up the 20" if you want it and it was near him. And when she didn't, it switched to "Pick it up" as an order with a threatening stare. He was being told to stop his behavior and he punched the bouncer. That is intimidation right there. That if she didn't do what he wanted, someone would get hurt. Which is ironic considering how he "defended" Anne Marie's honor, which he wasn't really doing anyway. He used it as an excuse to beat someone to a pulp.

 

The consensual sex with Anne Marie was not in question.

Edited October 16, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

 

Did I just compare Dean to a harassed exotic dancer on a poll? I think I just did - heh.

I think it's a fairly apt comparison. Well done!

 

 

It wasnt even so much the act of touching her but the attitude that it was his right to touch her. he was being threatening and intimidating towards her as well.

I think you are right -- Dean was totally over the line. He wasn't "it's science" douchebag gross but he was gross IMO. 

Real Dean admired and appreciated strippers. This Dean acted entitled to touching her. He's flirted and pursued, but she said "no" and he didn't care. Real Dean would back away. Real Dean doesn't need to push. So..why did twisted-soul Dean push?  IMO it's because he's relishing in being an ass.  And it's coming out in a whole bunch of ways.  He wants what he wants and no one can tell him "no".  It's not OUR Dean...it's a Dean who has a knee-jerk reaction to any sort of control.  Of course the woman was completely right to tell him to buzz off. But Dean's not evaluating appropriate/inappropriate.  That's far too civil for him right now. 

 

And none of that means Dean is inherently evil.  He's having a bit of a tantrum. I want what I want when I want it. Or as was suggested up thread, he's the "Faith" (from Buffy) of Supernatural.  It's not rational and it doesn't mean that Dean, in his natural state, is evil. The Mark has twisted his soul.  It's turned dark enough that he's become an actual demon.  He's not raving lunatic demon. He's not calm true-believer demon.  He's Dean with a soul that has become all about self.  Which is kinda the opposite of normal Dean.  To me, that makes some sense.  What could be more horrible but to become something you are not.  But not so much that you are completely unrecognizable.

To some extent, there's a great parallel with what he said about Cole.  Killing Cole would have been a mercy.  Pawning Cole is so much worse.  Cole is now going to be driven in the HUNTER LIFE.  Not just a life of stupid revenge but a life that Dean tries desperately to prevent people from joining.  EVIL.  And it's going to really upset Dean later when he reflects on it.  But if Dean just went completely mindless darkside, that would be a "it wasn't me" moment. Nope... this is MUCH worse, this is his soul allowing him some semblance of self while still egging him on to selfish, despicable behavior.  He's going to THINK this is a condemnation of himself as a person.  Which is ...like a perfect evil consequence for him.  And he's got enough self-awareness that he sees it happening and either can't or won't stop it. 

 

Yep... this is pretty much Dean's nightmare if he comes out of this.  Which is why they are going there in the writing. They are taking some of his known proclivities and making a truly UGLY version of Dean.  He admires women and sex: so he becomes ugly and entitled versus his normal sincere respectful.  He usually has a fair fight; so he cruelly taunts his outmatched opponent. He knows Crowley has probably done him a solid by feeding him a "worthy" victim; so he pisses on it. 

Edited October 16, 2014 by SueB

[supposebly]

Overall, this was really good. No reservations. Which, I'm kinda surprised by.

 

Ok one. I think they're overdoing it with the boyfriend metaphors. I do adore Mark Sheppard but I think it's so overdone he's having some trouble selling it.

 

Still, when Dean shoved him I thought, how did you not see this coming, Crowley?

 

Unless there is really a plan of fratricide that will make Dean more Crowley's bitch, I'm just having a hard time imagining that Crowley didn't think this through. He was so afraid of Cain, he should have seen this coming.

 

Poor Sam, taking the bone away from Dean, that's not going to end well. I guess he still thinks (or hopes) that it's the bone, mostly. Sam complaining about the garbage in the car. That gave me some whiplash. And "it's just a car". And Sam driving. And Dean in the backseat. The whole scene gave me whiplash. I think Sam had some whiplash too.

 

I almost felt bad for Cole. Almost. He doesn't know about the supernatural. I guess he got a crash course, like so many before him.

 

I have no idea what year it is in Supernatural land but they should have found a younger actor. There must be some strapping young man in the CW pool who can actually act and pull this off?

 

Outstanding acting by the J2.

 

I do wonder if the angel story is about Hannah learning about humanity. Which, bleh.

 

ETA: I don't get the title either.

ETA: I have another complaint. Minor in the grand scheme of things but apparently, I can't quite live without airing all my complaints. Sam didn't notice the guy following him? I know it's for plot reasons but really. So I must fanwank that's how out of it Sam is.

Edited October 16, 2014 by supposebly

[SueB]

 

Sam didn't notice the guy following him?

Brain trauma.  Dude is getting seriously abused ALL THE TIME.

[Hana Chan]

Have to say, it was awfully stupid for Dean to reveal to Cole that he was a demon. Maybe he was intending that it would scare the guy off, but he just gave Cole the key to figure out how to put a major hurt on him. Not sure if this was Dean being self-destructive or just a dick but I can't shake the feeling that this is going to come back to bite him in the ass in some way.

[Julia]

Have to say, it was awfully stupid for Dean to reveal to Cole that he was a demon. Maybe he was intending that it would scare the guy off, but he just gave Cole the key to figure out how to put a major hurt on him. Not sure if this was Dean being self-destructive or just a dick but I can't shake the feeling that this is going to come back to bite him in the ass in some way.

 

Maybe there's some little piece of human Dean left who wants someone to stop him.

[Amerilla]

"And Deanmon letting Cain live is clearly going to come back and bite Dean in the ass later on."

why would that bite Dean in the ass.? Cain told him to come back and kill him once he was done with killing abbadon

 

Oops, typo fail!!

 

I meant to type Cole, not Cain. Humiliating an already enraged Cole and leaving him alive is going to come back to bite Dean later on. In the Reichnebach theme, Deanmon thinks Cole is now a "dead" issue, but he's not. The rest I should take to Spec w/ Spoilers.

[Coxfires]

I had stopped watching after the beginning of S6, and each new season, tried to reconnect and never managed, but this is the first time that I might consider keeping watching.

 

I feel like I can finally appreciate Sam back, and this take on Dean definitely piques my interest. This show was blessed to have two actors as capable as JP and JA, I think they are the basic reason I still tried to watch these past years.  

 

I couldn't care less about the angels storyline. As much as I f'loved Castiel's apparition back in Lazarus Rising, the show lost me when it became all about saving the world. What I like in the DemonDean Sl is that it focuses the story on the main characters. I don't know if S7 to S9 dealt with that, but at least this time that is the vibe I felt in the first two episodes.

 

Cole was miscast age-wise, but the actor fits the needs for the character, although the whole revenge stuff is cliched. I guess it'll provide a foil that ain't supernatural for once, although it'd have been nice if didn't know right off the bat that Dean was a demon.

[SueB]

Finally rewatched the ep. Young Cole had freckles. Just in case we missed the parallels with Dean.

[supposebly]

I wonder if Cole is going to be some sort of parallel stand-in for John Winchester or any hunter who became one because of some monster killing a family member. We always just see and hear about it in retrospect, I wonder if they are planning for us to see how that happens while we are watching while our "sympathies" are with the monster. If that's the case, I hope they do it well. I have some sympathy for Cole (despite the rebreaking of Sam's arm). Of course, that won't end well either, since John had an actual monster to deal with, while Dean, at least at the time, probably took care of Cole's father who was probably was some kind of a monster. Unless there is a skeleton in Dean's closet we know nothing about.

Edited October 16, 2014 by supposebly

[Frost]

I have some sympathy for Cole (despite the rebreaking of Sam's arm).

 

I have no sympathy for Cole whatsoever.  I have sympathy for the child that saw his father's bloody corpse and believes he saw the murderer but I do believe in free will and Cole chose how he was going to deal with that trauma.  Obviously that would be horrible for a child, but that doesn't give him a free pass to torture people that get in his way.  He seemed to be nonchalant about the pain he was causing Sam.  I didn't see any conflicted emotions about that.  Didn't he also imply that he learned his torture techniques during his two tours in Iraq?    It seems to me that he chose to channel his rage into hurting other people and that's not OK with me. 

 

Again, Cole reminds me of Gordon.  Something awful happened and the chosen response was to cause others as much pain as possible.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Frost

[mertensia]

SueB[/] I am a little face blind and I thought at first that was the actor who played Young Dean in Bad Boys. ...It wasn't, was it?

Catrox no I'm not saying that I think deep down I think Dean is nothing but a murdering rapist. I do think that deep down there are primal urges- eat, sleep, sex etc. - and DemonDean is now acting on those without the influence of any morality or filters. There are times when I an at work and dealing with someone so rude and nasty that I just want to take the three hole punch and bash them over the head. I don't because it's wrong and that isn't who I am. But the desire is there. The demon part is saying "oh, go ahead. You want to. They deserve it. You deserve to teach them a lesson. Etc." And Dean has no way to counter that. None.

I was thinking- maybe Cole 's father was a witch? It would explain why Cole isn't a monster.

[SueB]

Witch....have the boys actually personally killed a witch! The man's throat was slit. Not a full beheading so maybe not a vamp. No silver bullet to the heart, not a werewolf. Not roasted, not a rugaru. I need Charlie's iPad.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't even know what show I'm watching anymore. Marvatron isn't the only one who talks too much. What's with the buckets of stupid in this episode?

 

I don't care about Cole, don't care at all, nope, nada, zilch. Nor do I care one ioda about whatever the hell is that Castiel is doing. Does anyone know what exactly Castiel is doing?

 

The biggest disappointment? They finally pony up some funds for those sounds that is such sweet music to my ears and it's something recycled and not in a good way.

 

The good? Hmmm...well, Asstiel did manage to get a chuckle from me. Sigh.

Edited October 16, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

Witch....have the boys actually personally killed a witch!

 

I think they killed that creepy teacher witch in "It's the Great Pumpkin...", didn't they? (It's been a while since I watched that episode). I think they just shot him, before Samhain took over his dead body. So potentially a witch could be a possibility. Likely wasn't an older witch though, since those - like that fighting couple in season 7 - usually wipe the floor with Sam and Dean.

[SueB]

I don't even know what show I'm watching anymore. Marvatron isn't the only one who talks too much. What's with the buckets of stupid in this episode?

The biggest disappointment? They finally pony up some funds for those sounds that is such sweet music to my ears and it's something recycled and not in a good way.

ITA 'Sweet Cherry Pie' was a massive disappointment. Are you saying too much exposition or just wordy dialog and not enough action? Wasn't sure what you were poking at.

[DittyDotDot]

Just wordy dialogue, IMO, and far too much of it. Did I really need to hear that husband's entire tale twice and in such detail? Did I really need to have a repeat of Dean and Crowley's chats from last week? Did I really need Cole to tell us at least three times that Dean killed his father and he wanted revenge? Everybody is talking far to much and, IMO, it's not at all necessary. Even the one fight scene was full of the talky talk talk. It's not like I need a whole lot of action--I mean, I watch and love Mad Men--but it would be nice if they would shut the hell up once in a while so we can ruminate in the moments. These guys are their own worst enemies.

[catrox14]

Hay I started a Bitterness Thread

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/16480-you-all-suck-the-supernatural-bitterness-thread/?view=getnewpost

Edited October 16, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Forgot to ask, has anyone wondered if that wasn't actually Dean who killed Cole's dad? Could've it been a shifter or something? Maybe Cole's father wasn't the monster--which might fit into the theme of "who's the real monster" they keep talking about for the season.

 

Also, what episode do you think they mined that image they fixed up to look like a young Dean? They don't have the leather jacket of masculinity any more, so I'm assuming they must have taken shots from an old episode and then tweeked them.

[kimrey]

Also, what episode do you think they mined that image they fixed up to look like a young Dean? They don't have the leather jacket of masculinity any more, so I'm assuming they must have taken shots from an old episode and then tweeked them.

 

One of the guys on the VFX team tweeted about it.  He said they didn't use any old footage, it was all "magic."  He said at some point they might release of breakdown of how they did it.  Here's his twitter:

 

https://twitter.com/adamwvfx

 

So I'm guessing they got a replica of the leather jacket.  Wouldn't be too difficult.

[catrox14]

Yeah that was creepy cgi Dean.

I thought about it being a shifter too.

As much as they love parallels I wonder if it could be that Dean was possessed by a demon and didn't remember killing anyone.

Edited October 17, 2014 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Forgot to ask, has anyone wondered if that wasn't actually Dean who killed Cole's dad? Could've it been a shifter or something? Maybe Cole's father wasn't the monster--which might fit into the theme of "who's the real monster" they keep talking about for the season.

 

 

I suggested that either Daddy was a monster or Dean killed the monster that killed Daddy.  A shifter could be possible.  Especially if Dean genuinely has no idea who Cole is.

 

As much as they love parallels I wonder if it could be that Dean was possessed by a demon and didn't remember killing anyone.

 

 

I would not be surprised if the writers reused the "Sam possessed by Meg" story.  

[SueB]

 

As much as they love parallels I wonder if it could be that Dean was possessed by a demon and didn't remember killing anyone.

I hope not.  I think it's completely realistic that Dean doesn't remember a hunt from 11 years ago. I actually think that's a REALLY good point.  For The Winchesters, the number of people they've saved, monsters they've ganked, and lives that were decimated not by them but by the events that unfolded around them.... it's easily hundreds.  One of the great things about normal Dean is that he's (in the past) valued the individual human life.  But with so many notches on his belt (even if they are monsters), individuals lose identity for him. Same applies to Sam.  I'm hoping that Cole's story brings the out the introspection (good and bad) of what they do and how they shape lives.  For example:  Let's say the Dad was a monster and Dean "let him go" (Cole) because he showed no monster signs.  That was mercy on Dean's part -- but he apparently didn't explain WHY it happened.  Was he trying to protect the kid from knowing about monsters?  What if Dad was killed by a monster and Dean ganked that too?  Again, why not explain?  So... saving people's lives is not enough.  If you left them devastated thinking that you murdered their normal father -- was that the right thing for the kid left behind?  Survey says "no" if you're Cole.  Did Dean keep quiet because that's what John taught him to do? Did he keep quiet cause that's how hunters generally act? IDK.  I just know that Cole (who, BTW, I have very little sympathy for because he left his family to purse vengeance), is permanently scarred. And it's possible that a sentence or two from Dean would have shifted the course of this kids life.  That's a HUGE impact.  Of course he was 22 at the time.  But do they explain shit now or do they just leave town?  How many "Coles" are out there?  It's a thorny question IMO.

 

In sum: Cole himself is "meh", but I kinda like the topic they are exploring.   

Edited October 17, 2014 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

{exerpt} -   Did Dean keep quiet because that's what John taught him to do? Did he keep quiet cause that's how hunters generally act? IDK.  I just know that Cole (who, BTW, I have very little sympathy for because he left his family to purse vengeance), is permanently scarred.

 

In sum: Cole himself is "meh", but I kinda like the topic they are exploring.   

 

I agree, and your observation here brings up another question for me. Should Cole have even had a family, knowing what his goals were? He said that he spent most of his life preparing for that moment of vengeance, including tours of duty in dangerous areas. If he knew that vengeance was going to be his main goal, was he clear about that with his wife before he married her? Did she know what she was getting into before she got pregnant and brought a kid into the messy situation? I don't know - for me, if I knew the man I loved was on a vendetta against a person thought to be a dangerous killer, I at least might have wanted to wait to see how that came out before having a kid, because 1) he might get killed in the process or 2) the killer might somehow end up finding the family, including my kid. And if he didn't tell this woman and still married her and had a kid... wow that's like John Winchester levels of irresponsible right there in my book.

 

In my opinion, there's just certain things (and this even includes some particular professions for me) in life where you don't drag a significant other - and especially a kid - into it, and obsessively pursuing a potential homicidal maniac would be way, way up on that list. If he's only supposed to be 24, he had plenty of time to wait for the wife and family until after his vengeance. I'm not even sure when during all his preparation and tours of duty he even found the time to fall in love, get married, and have a kid, myself, because really? His poor wife. That's who I feel sorry for.

 

For example, if Cole didn't tell his wife about his vendetta, what would have happened if demon Dean had killed him? She would have ended up with a dead husband and a fatherless child and had no idea why it happened. And that's if she even knew what happened to him. If Sam hadn't come to, and Dean had killed Cole, it would've been likely that either Dean or Crowley would have made sure that body never would be found. And that Cole is continuing to pursue this after finding out that Dean is a demon just increasing the chances he'll be leaving his family heartbroken in the end in some way, if not put them directly in danger eventually, since he'll be opening up a huge can of worms here once he delves into demons. He's gonna be in way over his head.

Edited October 17, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

 

wow that's like John Winchester levels of irresponsible right there in my book.

ITA. Cole is, IMO, WORSE that Daddy Winchester. Which is saying A LOT.  John became obsessed after Mary's death but he didn't set his family up for the fall.  And if you consider that maybe there was a Cupid-influence on their marriage as well....well geez, John's kinda relatively tame compared to Cole.  So, yeah, Cole gets no sympathy for his CURRENT actions.  I sympathize with his whole childhood trauma and wonder if Dean could have said or done something to lessen the trauma...but Cole's actions are totally out-of-control IMO.