S29.E02: Method To This Madness

[Nashville]

Here's hoping Jon's honesty doesn't earn him the same reward as it did Joey on this season's BB. :)

[Misty79]

So far I'm not feeling this season and that's purely because I haven't found any of the contestants particularly likable. Is it just me or is this season a little short on brains and really heavy on brawn? The shallow side of me could also do with a little more beauty. 

 

Hoping things get better. I think they're wasting too much time on the loved ones junk and running three challenges per episode, and they're sacrificing the "little moments" of interaction I'm used to that help us to get to know the survivors. I know it's always a bit short on this at the start though.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Misty79

[bluebonnet]

Re: Baylor crying with the split lip.  It's easy for me to want to laugh about it, but this is also where BvW is really interesting to me, especially with the parent/child relationship.  When parents and children play games together, there's always this certain set of implied rules involved.  A parent doesn't go all out the first time they bring out the chessboard with their child.  The parent holds back and allows the child to learn and build confidence.  If the child has reached a certain stage of development, she or he knows the parent is playing at a lower skill level.  When knowledge and esteem is built up to a sufficient level, the child will be able to confidently say things like "stop letting me win" as a way to tell the parent that they are ready to try their hand at truly surpassing them.  An interesting set of behaviors occur when the child does reach a level where she has surpassed the parent.  Say they both enjoy playing basketball but in middle or high school, the child now has more skill with the ball than the parent ever did.  The child may be quite pleased with himself but also rush to excessively reassure the parent - "You're so awesome, Mom", "Can you show me how you do you're three-pointers, Dad, because it's amazing!".  

 

Of course, I'm just generalizing here as parent/child relationships are all different and development of children is unique.  There are a lot of things that can complicate the relationship between parent and child.  Missy going through three divorces and her role with Baylor experiencing a sort of reversal is just one such complication.  They have said that Baylor had to be more of the mother at times.  It makes the psychology of the game more fascinating for this viewer.  This isn't two loved ones playing monopoly.  It's a high stakes, high demand game that exerts a lot of physical and mental stress on the body.  This mother/daughter duo has had trauma that have complicated their relationship.  It leaves me wondering just how what these players are mentally experiencing when they are being asked to discuss who they are thinking about while they are physically assaulting the other.  The emotions that welled up in Baylor's face seemed a whole lot deeper than just pain from a split lip. She's been in a position of feeling the need to protect her mother and is now in a position of needing to potentially harm her mom in an effort to win a million dollars...all while Jeff is making sure that the thought of the exes is on their mind.  It's pretty heavy stuff.

 

I did like what Natalie said about her 28 year relationship with her sister being different.  It is different.  Lifelong relationships have an element to them that isn't found in other relationships.  We engage differently with our parents, our siblings, our cousins, etc than we do with our spouses or partners (and I'm not talking about just the romantic vs familial differences, here).  Again, I'm generalizing here because all relationships are unique.  Still, while this group of contestants might lead to a boring season, I think the psychology of this version of the game is immensely fascinating.  

[pievancouver]

Did Val never watch Survivor before? lying about 2 idols is so dumb...

[cooksdelight]

Val and Jeremy both were/are big Survivor fans. I guess she thought it would keep her in the game, but John told her privately she needed to play one to save herself. She said OK, knowing she didn't have one. Totally dumb move.

[Way Wes Jr]

A pretty forgettable episode, two days later, and I’m really, “meh.”

Though I like Exile Island in theory, they really shouldn’t send people there before they a couple of days with their tribe.  Val was doomed from the start, and it doesn’t look like Keith is bonding very well with Hunahpu either,

 

Hunahpu (Blue Tribe)

 

1. Jeremy (1)  Even with being sent to Exile, it doesn’t look like he’s lost standing with the tribe.  Plus, while we weren’t shown any idol-hunting footage this episode, I’ll bet any we see in the future will actually be from the day of his return to camp, instead of whenever they’ll try to present it as.

 

2. Kelley (4)
3. Natalie (5) Since this tribe won, we didn’t get to see much of the tribal dynamic.  What we did see was enough to drop “the boys.”

 

4. Reed (6)  Moves up, as he was shown to be a challenge asset, and not an irritating doofus.

 

5. Drew (3) Just irritating, didn’t lose the flint.

6. Jon (2) Irritating, lost the flint.

 

7. Missy (9)  I don’t know how solid Jeremy’s alliance is, but she was at least approached about it.
8. Keith (8)  Whereas being Jeremy’s fifth vote was just kind of implied in the first episode.

 

9. Julie (7) Let’s see, you’re only woman we weren’t shown Jeremy talking to about an alliance.  You sent Jeremy to Exile Island.  (Which worked out for Jeremy, but still...) Jeremy and John made a deal to protect each other’s “loved ones.”  Yeah, if Jeremy is in the position I think he is within your tribe, you’re screwed.

 

Coyopa (Yellow Tribe)

I think having Nadiya for the immunity challenge would have been a huge improvement over Baylor, had the producers not mandated that same sex relationship pairs had to fight each other.  As it was, Natalie might have beaten Nadiya, and we wouldn’t have needed the repeat Kelley-Jaclyn match.

 

1. John (1) “Choke hold?”  Racist piece of shit.  But he has the immunity idol, so unless they blindside him, we’re stuck with him.

2. Alec (2)
3. Baylor (3)
4. Wes (4)  With John switching his vote there isn’t any reason to switch up this part of the rankings.

 

5. Josh (6)
6. Dale (7) Nor this part, other than to move them up for Jaclyn's drop.

 

7. Jaclyn (5) Internal tribe Pagonging almost complete.  You better hope John dials up the ass-meter to eleven and the tribe decides to blindside him.

 

BYE  Val (8)  You were hosed by going to Exile the first two days.  I understand the logic of claiming you had two idols, (especially when presented to a recruit like John,) but I can’t believe the entire tribe bought that.  Heck the fact that they were presenting a split vote with Baylor, and I didn’t drop her in the rankings, shows how much I think Josh and Dale bought your story. (As presented to them by noted genius, John Rocker.)

[Nashville]

Hey, you have to give Jon a bump over Drew, at least. Busting Rocker's honker should be worth at least that in entertainment value. :)

[NutMeg]

I totally would have run with that instead of admitting I did it. "I guess it was too shiny for those little thieving bastards to resist grabbing it." That could have worked! Also odd they usually edit out them talking of previous contestants but they kept in his "Oh no, am I now this tribe's J'tia??" speech.  Oh and I doubted his "own up to it hard", or however he referred to it, plan was the best way to go. I'm in the "if I make a huge mistake the last thing I want is everyone talking about it and want to sweep it under the rug and move on asap" camp myself.

 

I think Jon showed his youth and lack of like experience there - this "owing up to it and say you're sorry, sorry, a million time sorry" works well with parents or with a newly wed wife, not so well in the real world outside of close friends. Try that with your boss, and unless you're the golden child, it could backfire big time. I guess maybe he is the golden child in his life and hasn't learned some lessons the hard way yes.

 

I have to say I found J'Tia absolutely hilarious and liked her a lot in her interview with Parvati, and would now be happy to see her again. I know YMMV etc. And I just realized that I may be using Jon's tactic here as she's disliked by most, so that makes me look like a big hypocrite. Feel free to vote for me anytime, I have two idols in my pocket :-) 

[willpwr]

I think the blue team should alternate who does "rock, paper, scissors", this is Reed's second time and both times he's chosen "rock", John probably remembered that which is why he chose "paper". Next time if it's a physical challenge where they have to be aggressive towards the other tribe and they have to sit out someone, I'd sit out Missy, she's shown to be a liability when going against her daughter.

[NutMeg]

I wish all the RC weren't recycled RI challenges and we had actual tribal reward challenges wit the whole tribe involved. If the season was indeed supposed to have RI and the challenges are predetermined, I wish the rock-paper-scissor winning team at least chooses a free electron, although I fear it might not be allowed.     

[awaken]

I don't follow baseball and had never heard of John Rocker, but wow, he is one of the ugliest people I've ever seen, inside and out.  I hate when they put "celebrities" on the show and have the big reveal of tribe mates finding out how famous and amazing they are.  YAWN.  His belligerence and "fame" does not stir up my interest at all.  I'd be much happier getting to know a group of regular people each week.  Even recycled Survivor castaways would be better than cocky athletes.  

 

And what is with Jeff being so obvious during the challenge between John and Julie- "NO ONE would have predicted this!!"  No one would have predicted that a woman could win against the almighty baseball player?  Puke.  And Julie stands there and takes her boyfriend fuming and spewing about being beaten by a girl.  Shameful.

 

I am sorry Val got voted out.  I really liked her, and thought she would go much further.

 

I think the other half of the male couple is smart- Josh?  He seems very intuitive and says what he needs to to make alliances and be a part of things, but keeps quiet when it's smart to do so.  I hope he makes it far! 

 

And duh, why is it so ironic that a firefighter lost the flint?  (Or maybe that was the 1st ep.?)  It's not like firefighters START fires with their bare hands!!

[Donny Ketchum]

I am sorry Val got voted out.  I really liked her, and thought she would go much further.

I am, too, but really, once Baylor chose to go with the guys for whatever stupid reason, her fate was more or less sealed.  I don't see the guys breaking at all.

 

I think the issue I personally have with Baylor is not that she turned on the women before they ever really got started, but because she wouldn't just own up when called out on it.  When it was just by Jaclyn, she had some wiggle room for it.  But once Val called her out, too, she needed to own up or look disloyal.  Which she did.

 

I do hate that John has an idol, but it's really glaring at how bad Val was at searching that she couldn't find it herself.

 

No real contenders have stood out yet, though I think Jeremy might go far.  So might Josh, Kelley, and Missy.  Baylor, too, if she starts choosing her allies right.  Though I think Julie's toast the first time Hunahpu loses now that John couldn't keep Val safe.

[rozen]

I would be a terrible negotiator in the flint situation, because Probst's badgering would just lead to my pointing out a tribe full of people languishing in the sand because they're too hangry to plot and strategize makes for reallllllly shitty tv. If there were such a thing as 'you're going to Exile Island' idol, it would probably fall into my lap immediately afterwards. Fishing gear's not a huge loss, I feel like the successful fishermen in past seasons have used spears anyway.

 

I am, too, but really, once Baylor chose to go with the guys for whatever stupid reason, her fate was more or less sealed.  I don't see the guys breaking at all.

 

I think the issue I personally have with Baylor is not that she turned on the women before they ever really got started, but because she wouldn't just own up when called out on it.  When it was just by Jaclyn, she had some wiggle room for it.  But once Val called her out, too, she needed to own up or look disloyal.  Which she did.

 

I do hate that John has an idol, but it's really glaring at how bad Val was at searching that she couldn't find it herself.

 

No real contenders have stood out yet, though I think Jeremy might go far.  So might Josh, Kelley, and Missy.  Baylor, too, if she starts choosing her allies right.  Though I think Julie's toast the first time Hunahpu loses now that John couldn't keep Val safe.

 

When are we going to get a season where women suck it up and stick together? There's always some chic who goes running up to the boys, selling out the alliance at it's earliest stages, in hopes that the brohammers will carry her until all other ladies are eliminated and then...magic? seduction? results in their continuing on. And Baylor gets turned on twice for her troubles, and is still mew mewing about her concerns about trusting Josh. Girl, he will cut you loose in a hot second, get a freaking clue. 

 

Val started out in such a potentially good situation, and proceeded to shoot herself in the foot, repeatedly.  She was already an effortless boot for a variety of reasons, she needed to play smarter not harder.

[Donny Ketchum]

When are we going to get a season where women suck it up and stick together? There's always some chic who goes running up to the boys, selling out the alliance at it's earliest stages, in hopes that the brohammers will carry her until all other ladies are eliminated and then...magic? seduction? results in their continuing on. And Baylor gets turned on twice for her troubles, and is still mew mewing about her concerns about trusting Josh. Girl, he will cut you loose in a hot second, get a freaking clue.

This is actually the main reason why Micronesia and One World, for all of their faults, are two of my most favorite seasons of this show.  We had two strong, unbreakable women's alliances stick together till the end of the game, resulting in an all-female F4 in Micronesia and an all-female F5 in One World.  I'd even say Heroes vs. Villains had a mostly loyal alliance consisting predominantly of women, with the sole man pretty much the goat and thus an inconsequential part of the game, anyway.

 

Please note that I'm a man, but I easily root for women on this show a lot more than men, and this game being harder for women is the main reason why.

 

As for Baylor sinking the women this season . . . I go back and forth between wanting her to get a clue about her standing and wanting her out for what she did.  Either option sooner rather than later.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Donny Ketchum

[KimberStormer]

Has there ever been a successful man's alliance?

[Nashville]

Fishing gear's not a huge loss, I feel like the successful fishermen in past seasons have used spears anyway.

Fishing gear is like any other tool; it's only as good as the person using it. IIRC the last season or two, its use was severely hampered because the people using it would keep losing parts of it. I know last season one woman tried using it and lost the spear first or second time out - and didn't the mask get lost season before that...?

In any case I haven't caught mention of anybody in the group with skin diving or scuba experience, so you're probably right; to this bunch, fishing gear would be about as useful as a bagful of Chuck-E-Cheese game tokens.

She was already an effortless boot for a variety of reasons, she needed to play smarter not harder.

Or not dumber, at the very least.

[SweetSable]

 

I do hate that John has an idol, but it's really glaring at how bad Val was at searching that she couldn't find it herself.

 

I'm not positive but I think the 2nd idol clue (the one that Rocker got) had additional instructions/clues on it than the clue that Val got - like the distance and direction maybe?  

[LanceM]

Has there ever been a successful man's alliance?

 

Not that I can recall. The alpha males tend to turn on each other sooner or later. I expect the same thing to happen this season.

[cooksdelight]

Regarding fishing...

Julie told me there was one guy from Florida who claimed to know all about fishing, but where they were located, the fishing sucked. Or he sucked, I can't remember which she said was worse. She told me the fishing equipment they got was useless because of those two factors.

Wasn't sure if that should be spoilered, but just in case, I did.

[willpwr]

Regarding fishing...

Julie told me there was one guy from Florida who claimed to know all about fishing, but where they were located, the fishing sucked. Or he sucked, I can't remember which she said was worse. She told me the fishing equipment they got was useless because of those two factors.

Wasn't sure if that should be spoilered, but just in case, I did.

Some of the best fishing in Central America is where they're located. It's why a lot of people go sport fishing there. The guy must have just sucked. I imagine it's Drew since he's in her tribe and his brother mentioned Florida in the first episode.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Has there ever been a successful man's alliance?

Hmm, I'd say depending on how you count them there's been quite a few starting with Hatch and Rudy in season one.

[KimberStormer]

I see what you mean, but I am thinking of alliance in a larger sense than a duo.  Hatch and Rudy had Sue and Kelly.

 

I just think it's weird to lament the lack of success found by female alliances, when two of those actually have worked (though if you wanted to say that the One World alliance was really just a Salani alliance because of the original tribe gender split, I would totally agree) but to my knowledge no male alliance has ever succeeded.  Even when attempted (like by Reynold trying to pull in Michael in Caramoan) it just comes off as a hilariously bad idea.  I don't expect much out of the bros this season either.

[peachmangosteen]

I think the reason why people clamor for an alliance of women is because this show (and society) usually tries to make us believe women can't work together, are weak, are stupid, etc. so it's really awesome when the women prove that wrong. At least that's why I always hope for a female alliance.

Edited October 8, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Donny Ketchum]

I think the reason why people clamor for an alliance of women if because this show (and society) usually tries to make us believe women can't work together, are weak, are stupid, etc. so it's really awesome when the women prove that wrong. At least that's why I always hope for a female alliance.

I suspect that's why Val tried to rally the Coyopa women, too, in the premiere.  For that very reason you said above.  Unfortunately, it seemed like Baylor was almost eager and desperate to prove what society thinks as correct rather than the contrary.

[blackwing]

Re: Baylor crying with the split lip.  It's easy for me to want to laugh about it, but this is also where BvW is really interesting to me, especially with the parent/child relationship.  When parents and children play games together, there's always this certain set of implied rules involved.  A parent doesn't go all out the first time they bring out the chessboard with their child.  The parent holds back and allows the child to learn and build confidence.

But she didn't go all out.  It did look to me like Missy was holding back.  Despite all of their "I'm imagining one of the exes" talk, Missy hardly came out swinging.  Baylor, on the other hand, was extremely ferocious.  She was the aggressor, she lunged at her mom.  Missy looked like she was just trying to block.  Baylor missed on her attack and slammed her own face into her mom's shoulder.  It was her own fault.  At least that's the way it looked to me.

 

I think the blue team should alternate who does "rock, paper, scissors", this is Reed's second time and both times he's chosen "rock", John probably remembered that which is why he chose "paper".

I do think that's giving John a little bit too much credit.

[willpwr]

I don't think it's a tough detail to remember or giving too much credit. Usually people tend to follow a pattern when playing "rock, paper scissors".  Some people notice things like that, I'm not going to underestimate him especially not considering that he may be getting help from production. He never saw Survivor so I don't blame him as much for not knowing about the Idol. 

[KimberStormer]

Believe me, I love a women's alliance (Parvati and Kim are my two favorite winners).  I'm intending to defend my Survivor Sisters by pointing out that they do better than their male counterparts!  And I cheer for just the reasons described--so much nonsense saying it's not possible.

 

But on the other hand, I don't think they always make sense under any circumstances.  I don't know Baylor's thought process, but you know? I would bet just about anything that it's not "I should work with the boys because men should be deferred to."  It seems like she wanted to work with Josh, not "the men".  Personally, I'd want to vet my alliance very carefully.  I wouldn't do it just because we're all women.  Sticking it to the patriarchy is not the kind of politics that Survivor is for.  IF, like Parv, Cirie, Amanda, Nathalie, and Alexis, it made sense for us to align, and we all happened to be women, great; and I'd even be happy to talk that kind of "show 'em what we're made of!" talk to solidify the alliance more.  But I'd be there to win, not make a political point.  (As for that, women like Cirie make the point just by existing.)

 

To me, saying Baylor has to join and be loyal to a women's alliance, just because it was proposed (by someone who is frankly terrible at Survivor) is artificially constraining her choices just because she's a woman--exactly the thing that I am a feminist in order to combat.  I think Baylor should play her best game, the best way she sees fit.

[BK1978]

Well said Kimber, I never get why people on Survivor or Big Brother want to make alliances based on gender.  It is just no logical in my opinion, like Kimber said if aligning with all women is the best for your game then so be it.  However, I would never go on a show like Survivor with the express purpose of working with all men.  I would want to work with people who I think could help me get further and that I could eventually beat and I think that is why Baylor decided to work with the men.

[viajero]

Some of the best fishing in Central America is where they're located. It's why a lot of people go sport fishing there. The guy must have just sucked. I imagine it's Drew since he's in her tribe and his brother mentioned Florida in the first episode.

 

My understanding is that much of the best fishing in that area is not right on the coast, but rather further out at sea.

[willpwr]

My understanding is that much of the best fishing in that area is not right on the coast, but rather further out at sea.

I can say from personal experience that I haven't needed a boat to catch fish when I go over there. Not all fishermen over there have boats. 

Edited October 7, 2014 by willpwr

[NutMeg]

I think in Survivor there is a point for a women contestants to work with other women in that all things being equal, a male contestant would usually get more votes at FTC, and that's where Parvati's plan was genius.

 

That being said, I don't think it always makes sense for each woman.

 

In the case of Baylor, though, I don't see what she gained by allying with Josh against the women - after all, she lost other potential allies, had votes for her in the two TC she went to (I know, I know, at the first one it was from her ally, I still don't get the logic and I'm not sure she does either), and doesn't seem particularly close /allied with the other guys, so what was the point? Thinking ahead, if Josh were voted out, what would be her plan B?

[LanceM]

I think in Survivor there is a point for a women contestants to work with other women in that all things being equal, a male contestant would usually get more votes at FTC, and that's where Parvati's plan was genius.

 

That being said, I don't think it always makes sense for each woman.

 

In the case of Baylor, though, I don't see what she gained by allying with Josh against the women - after all, she lost other potential allies, had votes for her in the two TC she went to (I know, I know, at the first one it was from her ally, I still don't get the logic and I'm not sure she does either), and doesn't seem particularly close /allied with the other guys, so what was the point? Thinking ahead, if Josh were voted out, what would be her plan B?

 

Well for one she ending up on the winning side that first tribal council. If Josh was not going to flip to the women right off the bat then Baylor gains nothing by sticking with the women. Nadiya gets voted out either way.

[KnitsWithRaceCars]

Some of the best fishing in Central America is where they're located. It's why a lot of people go sport fishing there. The guy must have just sucked. I imagine it's Drew since he's in her tribe and his brother mentioned Florida in the first episode.

Sounds par for the course for what we've seen and heard of him so far.

 

Someone upthread mentions 3 challenges per episode.  What am I missing?  I can only think of reward and immunity challenges thus far.  Exile island is the only thing I see taking away from the camp life stuff we'd been getting more of in recent seasons.

[Kel Varnsen]

This type of immunity challenge is exactly why I quit watching this show for several years. It's unnecessarily aggressive and potentially violent. I know there are lots of people who enjoy this hand-to-hand combat type of thing but I am not one of them. I know this isn't Big Brother, but it's not American Gladiators either. It's just a medical emergency waiting to happen, and the second Baylor started bawling about her lip they should have pulled her out of the challenge. There was no way her mother was going to come after her after that. Challenges that end with contestants bleeding should be retired from this show.

 

I love these kind of challenges for the exact same reason and I am glad they made this an immunity challenge. Mostly because I am tired of the run or swim to a a bunch of puzzle pieces and then build a puzzle type challenges. I am glad this was a purely physical challenge. As far as the potential for injury, sure it is there, but at the same time this is a game for a million dollars. 

 

The hidden idol once again bugged me though. I wish they would make it harder to find. I mean if John Rocker could find it with 2 clues you need to hide it better, or give more vague clues. It would have been sweet if it took say 6 Exile Island clues find the place where it is buried. Then you would see some real alliances and strategy (especially if the 6th clue didn't mention what the previous 5 said). 

[seacliffsal]

The producers don't want the idol too hard to find as they believe that it changes up the game and makes it interesting.  I think they just didn't want someone random to find it, hence burying it rather than putting it in tree branches or at the roots.  

[ghoulina]

I love these kind of challenges for the exact same reason and I am glad they made this an immunity challenge. Mostly because I am tired of the run or swim to a a bunch of puzzle pieces and then build a puzzle type challenges. I am glad this was a purely physical challenge. As far as the potential for injury, sure it is there, but at the same time this is a game for a million dollars.

 

I agree. This is Survivor. The risk for injury just kind of comes along with it. We've seen people injured by falling into fire or stepping on something in the ocean. 

[allthatglitters]

And again.....no one, not even the firefighters, learn how to make fire before coming on the show. And I agree with someone upthread that said how come 7 people, if they really got down on their knees and looked hard, couldn't find the flint eventually? I mean it seems that they have lots of time to look.

 

And again....someone that has a clue to the HII refuses or is too lazy to look for it!!!  Seriously Val?  Water well....North....7.  Some seasons the clue is so damn cryptic its almost impossible to figure out. This was so easy even a numbskull like John Rocker could find it in what seems like a couple of minutes.  It didn't even seem like he dug much, like it was just sitting there just under a sprinkling of dirt. How could Val not place that task as her #1 priority? She screwed herself and her hubby.

 

And again.....they put on the show some mega-rich athlete that doesn't need the money and is usually big and muscular. This almost guarantees he won't be allowed to win by a jury if he ever gets that far. And chances are he'll be voted off anyways when its time to get rid of the physical threats. Its a waste of space. Some eager average Survivor fan would give an arm and leg to be on the show.

 

sigh...but I'll keep watching. I don't like anyone yet either though

[PhilMarlowe2]

Deleted

Edited October 12, 2014 by PhilMarlowe2

[ProfCrash]

Val did not have the north 7 steps part of the clue. She had the first line that it was by the water.

[choclatechip45]

 

Has there ever been a successful man's alliance?

Lex/Tom/Ethan was a successful trio.