S01.E17: Scottish Independence

[Athena]

Scotland is about to vote on whether to secede from the UK. There are solid arguments on both sides. But none of that makes bagpipes good to listen to…or does it?

[Lantern7]

Anybody else tickled that LWT and The Daily Show go to the same place for stock photos of haggis? And great of John to make the issue of Scottish independence interesting . . . or more interesting, as it turns out.

[scarynikki12]

I think the Jo(h)ns call each other about those photos.

[Irlandesa]

I enjoyed the whole show but I think his "And now this" segments are really hitting their stride.  Short, sweet, silly and yet it needs to be said "That is not a selfie!" Using a new word doesn't make you 'cool,' especially if you clearly don't know what it means.

[MartinKSmith]

I'm from and I live in Scotland so had hoped that they would tackle Scottish Independence before the referendum, but with all the stuff happening this past week, I wasn't sure if they'd dump it in favour of something else or not. 

 

The piece was lacking some fundamental points/facts, but I recognise that it is a comedy show and not somewhere people should be going to get all their information. Still, they presented the 'bad break up' style arguments of each side pretty well. 

 

Roll on the 18th?

[possibilities]

MKS, can you recommend a good source for the missing facts? Before last night's LWT, I had heard about the referendum but had not heard anything whatsoever about the details. I'm interested, but not sure where to go for a good, fair introduction and summary.

[MartinKSmith]

MKS, can you recommend a good source for the missing facts? Before last nights LWT, I had heard about the referendum but had not heard anything whatsoever about the details. I'm interested, but not sure where to go for a good, fair introduction and summary.

Honestly, you'll be hard pushed to find anywhere giving a complete and unbiased review of everything. 

Each side has their arguments, the Yes campaign has been (for the most part) very positive and 'nothing will ever be bad again', while the No campaign has been extremely negative and 'you need us to survive!'. 

 

I've heard a lot of talk about "The Wee Blue Book", as being an unbiased look at things, but there are plenty people out there who have discredited it. 

 

So much of what will happen is unknown, which is why it's hard to pinpoint any absolute truths and also something that's annoyed me with the campaign. Any promises made by either side are relatively empty, due to the fact that they can't actually make any decisions until the decision has been made by the people. 

[Primetimer]

Warning: contains a mythical beast!

Read the story

[Sharpie66]

Waves Hi to MKS--I was in Scotland two years ago and loved it. I'm off to Ireland this weekend, but I'm hoping my next trip abroad is back to Scotland to see more of it (last time, we only got to Edinburgh, a quick drive through Glencoe and the nearby Highlands, then a drive up to Orkney for a few days, which was amazing). I am definitely following the referendum news and can't wait to see what the result is.

[Fremde Frau]

Thank you, MartinKSmith. I've been following this story with great interest since I hope to attend Edinburgh next year. 

[MartinKSmith]

Waves Hi to MKS--I was in Scotland two years ago and loved it. I'm off to Ireland this weekend, but I'm hoping my next trip abroad is back to Scotland to see more of it (last time, we only got to Edinburgh, a quick drive through Glencoe and the nearby Highlands, then a drive up to Orkney for a few days, which was amazing). I am definitely following the referendum news and can't wait to see what the result is.

Nice, I'm glad you enjoyed what time you had here. I've never actually been up to Orkney (or any of the islands, actually). I've travelled around mainland Scotland a fair bit though. I'm from up on the Moray Firth, between Inverness and Aberdeen. 

 

Thank you, MartinKSmith. I've been following this story with great interest since I hope to attend Edinburgh next year. 

While Thursday will decide our fate, if it is a Yes vote, independence won't come into effect right away. They're aiming for March 2016 for that to happen. So, it shouldn't really have any impact on your visit - unless, by 'attend', you mean like attending University? In which case, it might.

[Totale]

Oliver was snarking on the Yes/No aspect, but I remembered I was up in Montreal just before the big vote on seccession there (late 1970s I think) and you could tell what side people were on by whether the banner in their window read "Oui" or "No, Thank You".

Edited September 15, 2014 by Totale

[dusang]

I'm from and I live in Scotland so had hoped that they would tackle Scottish Independence before the referendum, but with all the stuff happening this past week, I wasn't sure if they'd dump it in favour of something else or not. 

 

The piece was lacking some fundamental points/facts, but I recognise that it is a comedy show and not somewhere people should be going to get all their information. Still, they presented the 'bad break up' style arguments of each side pretty well. 

 

Roll on the 18th?

 

I've just started listening to podcasts (I know, I'm soooo cutting edge!) and The Bugle in particular.  I decided to start as far back as possible, which was sometime in early 2012 and I just go to the episode where they discussed the agreement to hold this referendum.  I'm not sure what's more ridiculous, that I'm two years behind in my satirical news or that said two-year-old satirical news is still so relevant today.

[ganesh]

I said over in TDS that the Scot vote is interesting to me because of the nukes. I don't know what they're going to do with them or demand security arrangements to give them up. 

[Athena]

I particularly liked the anti-David Cameron segment since you don't see satire on him so much this side of the Pond of course.

 

I actually like a lot of Scottish things and loved it when I went there four years ago. I like haggis, the Highlands, bagpipe music, and whisky! Unicorns, I can take them or leave them. 

[iMonrey]

So, what was the currency in Scotland before the British Pound?

 

Excellent episode, nice coverage of the Ray Rice scandal, ISIL and the Scottish referendum on independence. Their official animal is really the unicorn??

[Fremde Frau]

While Thursday will decide our fate, if it is a Yes vote, independence won't come into effect right away. They're aiming for March 2016 for that to happen. So, it shouldn't really have any impact on your visit - unless, by 'attend', you mean like attending University? In which case, it might.

 

Yes, I meant attend as in attending a graduate program at Edinburgh. I've been working on my application paperwork since the summer and plan to submit it by December. I'm still going to try, because the only way for sure it won't happen is if I don't try, but now I'm nervous about my chances as an international grad student.

[MartinKSmith]

So, what was the currency in Scotland before the British Pound?

 

Excellent episode, nice coverage of the Ray Rice scandal, ISIL and the Scottish referendum on independence. Their official animal is really the unicorn??

I honestly don't know the answer to the first question. The unicorn is most definitely the official animal though. Problem? ha

 

Yes, I meant attend as in attending a graduate program at Edinburgh. I've been working on my application paperwork since the summer and plan to submit it by December. I'm still going to try, because the only way for sure it won't happen is if I don't try, but now I'm nervous about my chances as an international grad student.

I would hope that it wouldn't change anything with your application, especially as you're applying long before independence would take effect (if it ever does). Good luck with it though!

[VCRTracking]

The entire "Better Together" commercial. Her resemblance to Kristin Wiig makes it even funnier.

 

Edited September 15, 2014 by VCRTracking

[LADreamr]

How would you like the vote to go, MartinKSmith?  If you don't mind sharing.

[MartinKSmith]

How would you like the vote to go, MartinKSmith?  If you don't mind sharing.

I don't mind sharing at all. I will be voting Yes. A lot of the people I know are also voting Yes, though there are some No voters in there, too as well as a couple of undecideds. 

 

As I've said above though, while voting Yes, I don't expect to see an overall Yes vote come through. 

I do worry, slightly, if it goes No though, as there have been a lot more anti-Westminster/Anti-English stuff recently, which if it goes No and then the government in any way go back on the promises they've made for further devolution... Things could get violent. I hope it doesn't, but there is that possibility.

[Ames]

I have nothing smart to say about the topic, so I'll just say this: the unicorn grooving to the bagpipes just about killed me.

[LADreamr]

How do you all feel about the public statements from England?  I know I'm not seeing everything, but the comments from the top seem almost dismissive.  Not only Cameron's comments, but also the Queen today saying, "Think carefully about your decision."  Well, thanks Your Majesty, that's helpful.  And vague.  Ed Miliband is more passionate, but he appears to always be a bit that way.  Maybe because he's in a more underdog-trying to be the big dog mindset.  But just from an outsider's view, I think if I were Scottish I would wonder what the point of staying would be.  

[Laura527]

I flove this show in general and especially enjoyed this episode.  The Scottish vote for independence is very interesting, though I am curious as to what has happened in the past couple of months.  I remember an NPR segment back in July and the "no" vote was at that time polling in the mid-50's, with a comfortable lead over the "yes" vote.  Quite the opinion change in a short period of time!

 

And LADreamr, I had the same thoughts on the statements from the English leaders, especially the Queen!  Maybe they just cannot believe that the "yes" vote could prevail.

[Machiabelly]

Buckingham Palace has said the queen is going to remain neutral.

[MartinKSmith]

How do you all feel about the public statements from England?  I know I'm not seeing everything, but the comments from the top seem almost dismissive.  Not only Cameron's comments, but also the Queen today saying, "Think carefully about your decision."  Well, thanks Your Majesty, that's helpful.  And vague.  Ed Miliband is more passionate, but he appears to always be a bit that way.  Maybe because he's in a more underdog-trying to be the big dog mindset.  But just from an outsider's view, I think if I were Scottish I would wonder what the point of staying would be.  

I feel England/Westminster's statements can be summed up as "too little, too late."

 

Alex Salmond from the start wanted to have debates with David Cameron. Cameron, in turn, said that it was a Scottish decision for the Scottish people to make and he didn't belong in the argument. 

That was, right up until a poll came out suggesting that the Yes vote might be in the lead. At which point he and his Westminster mates headed up to Scotland to drop the 'love bomb' as it's being called. 

 

As far as the Queen's comments, there was a statement released by the Palace last week, when the papers had her rumoured to be upset about "losing Scotland", the statement said that as usual, she was staying out of politics, she's always impartial.

While the statement given outside the church on Sunday (I think?) has been picked up by the Unionists, it could easily have been picked up by the Nationalists. "Think carefully..." It's essentially just saying, "don't rush into a decision", that's not picking a side, that's how all decisions should be made.

 

I don't know if any of that really made sense... 

[LADreamr]

It's fine for her to stay neutral, but I would hope that for a vote this historical and significant, she could at least seem somewhat invested, even if it was just a speech outlining what happens in the event of either vote, you know?  Just to contribute something and appear to actually care what happens.

 

Full disclosure, I'm Australian and from Irish origins, so we know from the Queen's disinterest.

[MartinKSmith]

I am curious as to what has happened in the past couple of months.  I remember an NPR segment back in July and the "no" vote was at that time polling in the mid-50's, with a comfortable lead over the "yes" vote.  Quite the opinion change in a short period of time!

 

They got too comfortable and didn't bank on Yes gaining any lead. They kept putting out the same negative campaign, over and over again. 

The whole 'you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar' thing came into play, I guess. The Yes campaign, whether being fantastical or truthful, have been full of positivity. It's not hard to see why people would start to look to that as a better option, rather than the negativity coming from Alistair Darling and the No campaign.

[Moo]

I'm Scottish and unfortunately, I'm too terrified of the outcome to find anything funny about the possible death of my country. I urge any other Scots reading this to please vote NO. I love being a Scot, I love being a Brit - the two are not mutually exclusive.

[VCRTracking]

I didn't know Scotland kept nuclear weapons until listening to some podcast interviews with comic book writer Grant Morrison talk about how his dad protested the presence of US nuclear submarine bases in Scotland in the 60s. Also learned from him that most Scottish people are unhealthy because they deep fry everything.

Edited September 15, 2014 by VCRTracking

[MartinKSmith]

 Also learned from him that most Scottish people are unhealthy because they deep fry everything.

I've tried deep fried pizza before. It was awful. That's about the only 'unusual' thing I've had that's been deep fried though.

 

[indiCaro]

I'm Scottish and unfortunately, I'm too terrified of the outcome to find anything funny about the possible death of my country. I urge any other Scots reading this to please vote NO. I love being a Scot, I love being a Brit - the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

@Moo have no fear, leave that to the very English Eton Mess politicians!

The people of Scotland's eyes are wide open and positive. Westminster are trying to cling on, we will not be duped again, Scotland already voted for independence in 1979. Scots do not hate the English, but crave self determination. Just that.

Edited September 16, 2014 by indiCaro

[attica]

Buckingham Palace has said the queen is going to remain neutral.

 

Doesn't she have to remain neutral by law? I mean, you don't have a queen to run things...

 

I've said it in the TDS thread, but I'll say it here too: haggis is fucking delicious.

 

Geez, Scotland, if you're going to have a mythical beast as your national animal, why the fuck didn't you pick Nessie?!?!

[ganesh]

I thought the queen made statements about this?

[Hanahope]

So, what was the currency in Scotland before the British Pound?

 

According to the internet, the money in Scotland before the British pound was the Scots pound, along with groats and bawbees.  They'll have to go back a few hundred years for that.

 

Love that I can be so educated by a comedy show, Oliver did a nice job at least introducing the referendum topic and the various sides. 

 

And I love how he took on the  hashtag bit by corporations, and the selfie bit, omg, hahah.

 

I've tried deep fried pizza before. It was awful. That's about the only 'unusual' thing I've had that's been deep fried though.

 

Have you been to a mid-west county fair?  OMG what don't they deep fry?  They deep fry sticks of butter for god's sake, along with oreo cookies, snicker's bars, and pretty much anything else you can think of.  It all sounds completely sickening to me.

[dcalley]

I'm interested, but not sure where to go for a good, fair introduction and summary.

I shouldn't post this because I haven't read it yet, but I've got this Vox article open that I hope will help me (an American) be more informed. It's a week old at this point.

[SpiritSong]

I didn't know Scotland kept nuclear weapons until listening to some podcast interviews with comic book writer Grant Morrison talk about how his dad protested the presence of US nuclear submarine bases in Scotland in the 60s. Also learned from him that most Scottish people are unhealthy because they deep fry everything.

That has not been my experience. I've had excellent food in Scotland, some of it fried, but mostly not. And to this day I crave a pint of Scottish ale.

I was wondering about the nukes too. I thought they wanted them gone, but England preferred they remain. That issue alone could definitely sway my vote, if I had one.

[attica]

I was on the train this morning woolgathering (as you do) and decided that the problem with mis-named selfies must be a fundamental misapprehension. I think that some people think any photo taken with a cell phone is a selfie. But if you're me, you're thinking that there should be another name for a non-selfie cell phone photo. Maybe, like, 'cellphie!' Geddit? It's a homophone!

 

Put me in the OED! [drops mic]

[ajsnaves]

I have no idea what "woolgathering" is, but in my mind it's just another word for sheep shearing.  Please tell me that is what it is is.  Because if I saw that on a train, you would be my favorite person there.

 

My cousin's girlfriend is from Scotland, in fact I am pretty sure they are over there visiting now so she can vote.  So I knew about the referendum, but I really didn't know anything about.  So I was glad John had a story about it to fill in a little bit. (Much as I am glad CBS Sunday Morning had one as well. That one was not has funny though.)  I really wish the US media had more coverage.  I suppose they will in the next day or two.  Oh, and if I were to pick a mythical creature to be the national animal, I would pick a griffin. Unicorns are great and all, but a griffin can fly.  Ooh, unless it was the Pegasus unicorn from that commercial recently.

[attica]

Woolgathering means idle thinking. Sadly, no sheep on my commute.

[MartinKSmith]

Oh, and if I were to pick a mythical creature to be the national animal, I would pick a griffin. Unicorns are great and all, but a griffin can fly.  Ooh, unless it was the Pegasus unicorn from that commercial recently.

 

 

That's the Royal Coat of Arms, with the English Lion and the Scottish Unicorn. No wings, unfortunately

Edited September 17, 2014 by Athena
Changed to IMGUR link

[peeayebee]

I think that some people think any photo taken with a cell phone is a selfie. But if you're me, you're thinking that there should be another name for a non-selfie cell phone photo. Maybe, like, 'cellphie!' Geddit? It's a homophone!

I think of selfie as a pic you take of yourself while holding the cellphone OR digital camera. (I do like your 'cellphie' idea though.)

[Athena]

Hello! Please remember to not hotlink images from other sites unless it is your own or from a image service like Imgur. For more information see How do I add an image to my post?

 

MartinKSmith: I edited your post to relink an image I put on Imgur. Cheers!

 

Carry on! :)

[MartinKSmith]

Hello! Please remember to not hotlink images from other sites unless it is your own or from a image service like Imgur. For more information see How do I add an image to my post?

 

MartinKSmith: I edited your post to relink an image I put on Imgur. Cheers!

 

Carry on! :)

Apologies. I'll know for next time.

[ottoDbusdriver]

That's the Royal Coat of Arms, with the English Lion and the Scottish Unicorn. No wings, unfortunately

 

Am I the only one that thinks it odd that in that picture of the Royal Coat of Arms, the unicorn is basically on a leash with a crown around its throat.

Notice that the lion is not on a leash.

 

Symbolic shit like that probably doesn't help when it comes to the Scots feeling like they're treated like 2nd class citizens in the UK.

 

A griffin would be kind of cool, as long as the Harkonnens are not involved. </snark>

Edited September 17, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver

[MartinKSmith]

Am I the only one that thinks it odd that in that picture of the Royal Coat of Arms, the unicorn is basically on a leash with a crown around its throat.

Notice that the lion is not on a leash.

 

Symbolic shit like that probably doesn't help when it comes to the Scots feeling like they're treated like 2nd class citizens in the UK.

 

It looks bad, but...

From wikipedia: "According to legend a free unicorn was considered a very dangerous beast; therefore the heraldic unicorn is chained, as were both supporting unicorns in the Royal coat of arms of Scotland"

Edited September 17, 2014 by MartinKSmith

[ottoDbusdriver]

It looks bad, but...

From wikipedia: "According to legend a free unicorn was considered a very dangerous beast; therefore the heraldic unicorn is chained, as were both supporting unicorns in the Royal coat of arms of Scotland"

 

I did not know that. Thanks @MartinKSmith

[possibilities]

So Scotland choosing the unicorn for their animal is not because they're all tween girls who wish to be represented to the world as pink cloud and rainbow loving fantasyland marshmallows, but is because they are actually ferocious unruly monsters whose power is untrustworthy "off the chain"?

[attica]

Once the let 'em off the chain, they'll all start boogeying to the bagpipes. Canna hae that, me bairns.

[LADreamr]

"Cellphie" is brilliant.  If "YOLO" can be added to the dictionary (ugh!), certainly this can be!

Edited September 18, 2014 by LADreamr