S03.E08: Holes Are Bad

[Bastet]

Godsdamn, this was old-school Ghosts.  This season has not been bad, far from it, but it hasn't matched the firing on all cylinders brilliance of the first two seasons until tonight.

My only problem was people repeatedly using "cement" when they meant concrete (cement is an ingredient in concrete, which is what was getting poured), only getting it right once, but that's a personal pet peeve, so if that's an episode's biggest flaw, it's a damn good episode.

All of us who figured Stephanie's boyfriend was the one who actually got sucked off are proven right, yet that was such a blip in the episode.  (A blip that gave me a chuckle in the flashback, where her reaction was "Seriously?!" then "That was rude" and immediately followed by "I'm going back to sleep".)

Because, my stars, the reveal of Hetty's death.  Her accidental OD celebrating Elias's death explanation was great on its own, but then to find out that's a cover for the real story, and why?  Just perfect, and a fantastic weaving in of the stuck in a hole story, to explain why Thor, Sas, and Isaac not only didn't know about Elias's vault (I freely admit I did not pick up on that at the time), but didn't know about Hetty's death.  Isaac's non-verbal reaction when she reveals her ghost cord to save Flower, while everyone else is focused on Flower, was so fitting their relationship, as was him telling Sam and bringing her to talk to Hetty.  Isaac and Hetty are two of the most myopic ghosts, but they're getting there, and, as they do, their love for each other has always been a bright spot.

And then the classic sprinkling of great lines throughout, the little moments, like Sas protesting he is "literally the storyteller" when Isaac takes over, Trevor saying having to pull, not push, is his greatest challenge yet, Thor's inadvertent "she said 'I'm well'" reveal of where Flower is, and "Pull the plug and save our girl, you miserly bastard" when it turned out the ghosts don't show on Facetime so their only hope was Jay not wanting to spend the money to fill in the well.

Plus it leaves open the possibility to later come across the Puritan ghost wandering the dirt, on a show that perpetually has to work to explain the appearance - and disappearance - of additional ghosts the longer it goes on.

Fantastic episode.

Edited April 19 by Bastet

[Annber03]

Eh, I think it made sense that Sam would be there. Partly because I think the ghosts are just used to looking to her to know what to do and how to respond when faced with something difficult (as they did when trying to figure out how to save Fower), and I think that's what Isaac was thinking here, too, and partly because I think she needed that support from both a friend and a family member. Especially when you consider how so much of her family lineage has...not turned out the best. I think she needed that support from a family member who's a genuinely caring, empathetic, good-hearted person. And I think Sam realized the importance of learning this detail about her ancestor's past as well. It may help explain a few more things for her about Hetty as a person and about the Woodstone family history in general and so on. 

[kathyk2]

13 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Eh, I think it made sense that Sam would be there. Partly because I think the ghosts are just used to looking to her to know what to do and how to respond when faced with something difficult (as they did when trying to figure out how to save Fower), and I think that's what Isaac was thinking here, too, and partly because I think she needed that support from both a friend and a family member. Especially when you consider how so much of her family lineage has...not turned out the best. I think she needed that support from a family member who's a genuinely caring, empathetic, good-hearted person. And I think Sam realized the importance of learning this detail about her ancestor's past as well. It may help explain a few more things for her about Hetty as a person and about the Woodstone family history in general and so on. 

Sam needed to know because Hetty might start having flashbacks now that she stopped repressing her memories. I think Alberta instead of Issac should have heard Hetty's story so she knows why she kept the truth hidden for so long. Hetty considers Sam the daughter she never had.

[HurricaneVal]

Wow.  I mean ... OMG.  Wow.

Fantastic episode. Just so much packed into it that I have so much to say that my commenter is just jammed stuck.

Everybody was awesome, every character had a moment, the writers deserve a raise and awards, Rebecca Wisocky knocked it outta the park, but everyone else was a rising tide that lifted that boat so give 'em all Emmys, but make Rebecca's bigger for this ep.

This is so my favorite show.

[Snow Apple]

Remember the basement ghost's random line about the knocking water heater? I kept thinking it was Flower's way out. But what if it's the Puritan ghost? After all, an unknown ghost wasn't needed in the story about how they figured out how to free themselves, and they said they walked through the soil into the basement DUN Dun dun!

Sorry, I just can't stop thinking about the poor woman lost in the dark. Flower couldn't stand it for three seconds and it's been centuries for the Puritan.

[Lisa418722]

This was easily my favorite episode this season. We learned so much. We learned it was Ralph that was sucked up and Stephanie was left behind.   We learned that ghosts cannot Facetime.  We learned there is a Puritan ghost wandering around in the dirt because Isaac covered his mouth when he sneezed. 

Finally, we learned how Hetty died.  Before this episode, I always figured she died from a drug overdose, cocaine, or morphine. But I never thought she used a telephone cord.  It did come in handy to help save Flower, but that was rough to see. Especially when she said she did it to help her son, and her son ended up murdering Alberta.  

This is the episode they need to submit to the Emmys for writing.  It was funny, it was sad.  Rebecca Wisocky was wonderful.  It helped to understand why Hetty seemed so uptight (besides the time period she lived in). 

And yes, I am happy to see Flower again.  Our Ghosts are back together.  

[mammaM]

7 hours ago, Starchild said:

I hear you. It bothered me that Sam came in with Isaac to talk to Hetty at the end. I thought it would have been a stronger underscore to their friendship if it had just been the two of them. She didn't serve a purpose, since she and Isaac basically said the same things.

Yeah. I thought since Hetty did what she did in part to save her son, save her family, that Sam was there to remind her that they were family. Oh well, thinking will always get you in trouble😂

[DanaK]

I almost wish they didn’t tell us ahead of time that this episode would be shocking  or give a content warning so that we could be surprised 

[ams1001]

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

Isaac's non-verbal reaction when she reveals her ghost cord to save Flower, while everyone else is focused on Flower,

I missed his reaction. I'll have to watch again (but might give it a couple days before I do...I agree with the person above who said it was a bit distressing and I am not in the best headspace lately; it was probably a good thing I was actually watching at my parents' house last night but it also meant I missed stuff).

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

All of us who figured Stephanie's boyfriend was the one who actually got sucked off are proven right,

Pretty sure someone also speculated that Flower got stuck somewhere because she was chasing a butterfly.

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

Plus it leaves open the possibility to later come across the Puritan ghost wandering the dirt, on a show that perpetually has to work to explain the appearance - and disappearance - of additional ghosts the longer it goes on.

Now I'm just waiting for her to pop up in the basement one day. The knocking water heater is an interesting hypothesis...

 

(Side note: Utkarsh Ambudkar and Betsy Sodaro (Nancy) were on After Midnight the other night.)
 

[chitowngirl]

When Hetty got the phone call, I was sure it was going to be for an extended warranty! 

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, ams1001 said:

I'll have to watch again (but might give it a couple days before I do...I agree with the person above who said it was a bit distressing and I am not in the best headspace lately; it was probably a good thing I was actually watching at my parents' house last night but it also meant I missed stuff)

I will need to rewatch it too.  I have family visiting, so I had to watch it in a hurry and missed some of the dialogue.  It was an awesome episode though.  Heartbreaking, but it adds another layer to Hetty's character.  

ams1001, hugs and I hope you're feeling better soon.  

[Silver-hyren]

13 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

Did not see Hetty's death coming at all. Although I recognized her dress so knew her death was coming. But suicide? Did not see that.

I twigged to it when she casually mentioned accidentally OD'ing.  My immediate thought was it was not so accidental.  Turns out I was wrong about manner of death.  And the well becoming a metaphor for depression - *this* was the amazing writing that's been missing all season long!

On a lighter note, the show is really going out of its way to hide Rose's pregnancy - except when it's not.  Hidden behind the car door to buried under a fluffy comforter to standing in the middle of the room with nothing blocking her.  

[ams1001]

24 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

When Hetty got the phone call, I was sure it was going to be for an extended warranty! 

I loved that she didn't know what the ringing noise was because no one's ever called before.

1 minute ago, Silver-hyren said:

And the well becoming a metaphor for depression

Okay, I need to look for this, too.

1 minute ago, Chit Chat said:

ams1001, hugs and I hope you're feeling better soon.

Thank you. 💙

 

[iMonrey]

4 hours ago, Lisa418722 said:

We learned there is a Puritan ghost wandering around in the dirt because Isaac covered his mouth when he sneezed. 

It's the polite thing to do.

I had to look up what mortadella is. Never heard of it before. I got a kick out of Sass watching Mark eat. "You eat that mortadella. You eat it real good." He was practically getting off on it.

I appreciate the continuity on this show, it's something you don't always see in a sitcom. They brought it back to Nancy who claimed she had accounted for all the basement ghosts and repeated the "only a basement ghost" thing too. You can hear Pete yelling "Everyone grab your suck-off buddy" while Stephanie was going back to sleep. Explaining why Hetty didn't know about the vault. Reminding us Alberta can control the Alexa. Thor asking Flower if she turned into an owl. There aren't many loose threads on this show they don't end up tying up.

[chaifan]

I'll go in with everyone else...  Wow.  Just wow.  In so many ways, wow!

I also picked up that Hetty was wearing the same dress that she died in.  I did not see the phone cord thing coming (more on that below).  Her story was just so powerful for her character.  I can now see why they've held it back for so long.  I have to wonder if the writers have had this in pocket all the time, or if they just hadn't figured out her death until this season.

Sass and Isaac telling the hole story was hilarious.  I loved Sass's "I'm the storyteller" line.  I love that Trevor never noticed Hetty's cord and his confusion with all the layers of her dress.  I love that Thor asked Flower about being an owl.  I loved Nancy's explanation of how she forgot a basement ghost.  I loved the discussion of ghost rules and floor vs. wall.

Getting out of the hole.  I thought they would create a human chain - Thor lowering Sass down, who was holding onto Pete, etc. 

I'm not sure how I feel about a puritan ghost  stuck in the dirt for eternity.  If she wandered far enough, she'd hit the property boundary (assuming that works underground) and then be bounced back, facing the opposite direction, but would she even know that?  I sort of wish they made a reference to a beam of light from the ground 10 minutes after Isaac lost her, so we know she's not still out there. 

Nitpicky things that detracted from an otherwise perfect episode...  how does one strangle oneself?  I would think it would be hard to keep enough tension on the cord to stay tight after you passed out.   Also, just how long was that cord?  Flower seemed to be at least 10 feet+ down.  I could see Hetty having 2-3 feet at most around her neck.  And how does Flower have enough grip to hold onto a skinny cord while being pulled up? 

Also, how did killing herself save  Hetty's son from financial ruin?  He would have inherited his father's debts.  Maybe not the legal liability about the child workers, but possibly so since he would have inherited the factory.  I just wasn't tracking Hetty's reasoning on this.

Edited April 19 by chaifan

[PaulE]

11 hours ago, Bastet said:

Isaac's non-verbal reaction when she reveals her ghost cord to save Flower, while everyone else is focused on Flower, was so fitting their relationship, as was him telling Sam and bringing her to talk to Hetty.  Isaac and Hetty are two of the most myopic ghosts, but they're getting there, and, as they do, their love for each other has always been a bright spot.

I loved this, because it shows that Isaac does have a compassionate side even though he's usually too self-absorbed to bother showing it.  We need a little more of that--not all the time, because Isaac's cluelessness is partly what makes him funny, but every now and then so he doesn't become obnoxious.  I actually did think we were in for another "it's all about me" session toward the beginning of the episode when he told Stephanie that having her boyfriend sucked off wasn't nearly as important as planning his dinosaur-themed wedding, but fortunately he stepped up to the plate with Hetty.

Speaking of Hetty, this episode made me think that, in one aspect, she has the most nightmarish existence of all the ghosts.  It's true that she's at home in familiar surroundings, which none of the other ghosts have (except partly for Sass), but think about it:  This is the house in which she was coerced into a loveless marriage and lived out the misery and frustration of that marriage, and where she committed suicide.  Later, she had to watch helplessly as her son became a murderer, and since then has had the constant reminder of that because of Alberta's presence, as well as the guilt of knowing Alberta didn't know the truth for so long.  This wasn't a happy house for Hetty.  Most of us, if alive, would probably want to move as far away as possible from those bad vibes, but she can't even do that.  She's got to be under a lot of emotional stress because of all this--I know I would be.

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

Don’t get me wrong…I’m not a fan of her character and wish they would get rid of her some way, but she should be in scenes with all of the other house ghosts, shouldn’t she?

I consider her more like Crash or Stephanie or the basement ghosts, so no, she shouldn't be in scenes with the other house ghosts every episode.

When Hetty started to panic in the flashback, I wondered if that too much morphine wasn't taken on purpose but I never considered the phone cord until she pulled it out of the wall.  Poor Hetty.  And yes, Rebecca Wisocky absolutely  deserves an Emmy for making us care so much about a character who could easily be one-note and awful in the hands of a lesser performer.

 

[proserpina65]

18 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Nitpicky things that detracted from an otherwise perfect episode...  how does one strangle oneself?  I would think it would be hard to keep enough tension on the cord to stay tight after you passed out. 

I imaging she hanged herself with it.

19 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I'm not sure how I feel about a puritan ghost  stuck in the dirt for eternity. 

Puritans suck so I'm fine with it.

 

[Phebemarie]

chaifin, I think the length of the cord may be a hint. 

 

 

[Jodithgrace]

So, how did it end up wound around her neck under her collar?

[proserpina65]

14 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

So, how did it end up wound around her neck under her collar?

Maybe there was a lot of it wrapped around her neck when she was cut down.

[Driad]

If Hetty hanged herself, wouldn't the rope make marks higher up, under her chin and ears, where they would not be covered by her clothing?

If Sam or Jay researched old newspaper reports of Hetty's death, or her death certificate, I wonder what they would find.  Some old newspaper stories include a lot of detail, but others might gloss over the cause to spare the family.

[Skooma]

16 hours ago, cdnalor said:

The idea of poor Patience wandering blindly under the ground for centuries seems like a rather grim fate to me instead of something played for laughs.  I really didn't find it funny.

But it is typical of the hilariously dark humor on this and other sitcoms.  Like Hetty talking about child laborers being good to squeeze their little hands into machinery and last week about how hard it was to scrape the guy off the bottom of her steamer trunk.  Or Thorfinn and his Dane stories.

Besides the Puritan's name is Patience so I'm sure she will be fine with a few centuries of wandering underground lost.  😄

[shura]

14 hours ago, Bastet said:

Its biggest flaw was repeatedly using "cement" when they meant concrete and then only finally getting it right in one line (cement is an ingredient in concrete, which is what was getting poured).  That's a personal pet peeve, yet a flaw I can easily dismiss with for how terrific this was.

Actually, it was Mark, the contractor, who used the word “concrete”.  The rest of them are lay people who may not know the difference. If they wrote it like that on purpose, it’s pretty brilliant.

Another point I’m wondering now is, did they write the bits with Carol and her candy to establish, on purpose, that ghosts can have contact with another ghost’s object as long as that other ghost is still in possession of it?  Which allowed Flower to grab onto the cord as long as Hetty was one of the people pulling?

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Also, how did killing herself save  Hetty's son from financial ruin?  He would have inherited his father's debts.  Maybe not the legal liability about the child workers, but possibly so since he would have inherited the factory.  I just wasn't tracking Hetty's reasoning on this.

I was wondering about that too.  Maybe, since neither Elias nor Hetty have actually been convicted, there are no debts to inherit yet, in the legal sense? Still, it seems that, if he inherited the factory, he would be on the hook for restitutions. Also, had she been convicted, would that really mean that her school age son would be left penniless? Were the laws really that cruel in 1895 (we have the date for Hetty, btw!)? I mean, things were looking up for children, that’s what started the whole prosecution, right? (I liked how proud Hetty was that they were the biggest employer of children in six counties. “We are doing our part.”)

Edited April 19 by shura

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, Driad said:

If Hetty hanged herself, wouldn't the rope make marks higher up, under her chin and ears, where they would not be covered by her clothing?

I agree.  I think it was clear that she choked herself.  Hanging would leave different marks, but also not many rooms have any means of hanging oneself.  Also, Hetty didn't untie the cord from her neck, she unwound it.  

1 hour ago, Phebemarie said:

chaifin, I think the length of the cord may be a hint. 

 

I'm not picking up on what you mean.  If you're implying that she hung herself, see above.  

The phone cord wasn't very long.  Back then, they didn't anticipate people walking around a room with the phone.  The phone stayed put, the cord was long enough to reach to the table.  

Sorry to have taken people down this path, as it distracts from the episode.  But it was just something that didn't sit right with me, and I wondered if others felt the same.  Maybe I'm channeling my inner Elsbeth...

 

[Maelstrom]

22 minutes ago, shura said:

Also, had she been convicted, would that really mean that her school age son would be left penniless?

"Penniless" can mean very different things to different people. For Hetty's social set, I assume it's more along the lines of not be able to live in the manner to which they are accustomed. And possibly having the family name tarnished by losing their fortune would be as devastating a blow. Just my spec.

And because it can't be said enough, this was by far the best episode of the season and probably one of the best of the entire series. Just brilliantly done.

[chaifan]

24 minutes ago, shura said:

Actually, it was Mark, the contractor, who used the word “concrete”.  The rest of them are lay people who may not know the difference. If they wrote it like that on purpose, it’s pretty brilliant.

My way of remembering - cement has 6 letters, concrete has 7.  So cement is smaller than concrete, thus an ingredient of concrete.  

I think sometimes writers put personal jokes/references into their shows, and I could see there being someone in the writer's room that has a relative in the construction/engineering business, and the relative hates it when people screw it up.  So they screwed it up, on purpose.  

[Bastet]

34 minutes ago, shura said:

Actually, it was Mark, the contractor, who used the word “concrete”.  The rest of them are lay people who may not know the difference.

I know.  As I said, it's just one of my pet peeves, people not knowing the difference, so if that's an episode's biggest problem for me, it's a damn good episode.  It just came out in kind of garbled phrasing; I'll clarify.

Edited April 19 by Bastet

[SoMuchTV]

While we're nitpicking...  Near the end, Hetty said something like "I didn't realize you could dial out on that phone" but I can't remember if it was flashback-Hetty or present-day-Hetty.  If it was in the flashback, I call foul, since it wouldn't have had a dial and nobody would have used "dial out" to mean "make a call".  If it was present-day-Hetty, I give her a pass since she's probably heard "dial" used by a few generations of livings.  (And hey, now "dial" has been sent to the  word history museum along with rolling up the car windows and taping a tv show.)

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

Her story was just so powerful for her character.  I can now see why they've held it back for so long.  I have to wonder if the writers have had this in pocket all the time, or if they just hadn't figured out her death until this season.

According to an interview with Rebecca Wisocky posted in the Media thread, the creators came to her about a month before they shot the episode, saying, “We think that this is the direction that makes sense to go in with this.”  When she'd asked them in the first season how she was going to talk about her character, not knowing how she died or what her ghost power is, they told her to just wait, they wanted to leave lots of doors open.  So how long they'd been mulling this scenario over, I don't know, but they included her during that month in fine-tuning the right way to present this revelation.  It's a great interview, all about this episode; here's an excerpt:

Quote

I love the way they wanted to tie it easily into the storyline [about rescuing Flower from the well]. There’s so many beautiful little seeds that have been set up throughout the first three seasons [about] why Hetty is so terrified of being alone — things that I wasn’t even aware that they were picking up on. Like, I always have made the choice to stand very close to other people or have a hand or an arm around someone. She enjoys that; she’s very orderly and standoffish, but she really has a terror of being alone. For them to explore, after 150 years of close friendship with these ghosts, she’s going to reveal the secret to save Flower from being doomed to an eternity of abandonment and aloneness.… It just was very moving to me. I mean, the episode’s title is right on the nose: “Holes Are Bad.” It’s a really beautiful metaphor. 

Hetty possibly only recently put all the pieces together for herself. There’s a moment of heavy processing, where she thinks that the right thing that could have helped her was to talk to someone — but she didn’t know what that meant [at that time]. People weren’t necessarily going to therapy as we know it. Those things weren’t available to her. And then in that same moment, when she says I didn’t even know that that telephone could dial out, I just thought it was so heartbreaking. And that’s the kind of humor I’m interested in: a deep truth into someone’s blindness. She killed herself by the very means with which she could have saved herself.

 

Edited April 19 by Bastet

[shura]

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

While we're nitpicking...  Near the end, Hetty said something like "I didn't realize you could dial out on that phone" but I can't remember if it was flashback-Hetty or present-day-Hetty.  If it was in the flashback, I call foul, since it wouldn't have had a dial and nobody would have used "dial out" to mean "make a call".  If it was present-day-Hetty, I give her a pass since she's probably heard "dial" used by a few generations of livings.  (And hey, now "dial" has been sent to the  word history museum along with rolling up the car windows and taping a tv show.)

Right, you would just pick up the receiver and tell the operator to connect you to “4”.  It was ghost Hetty, present-day, who said it.  But does it mean she thought she had a phone that could only receive calls and not make them?  Was that a thing?  Why didn’t they get the top model, the one that could make calls too?

“Has he called?” - “No, no one has called. Ever, I believe.”

[Mountainair]

Great episode! 

Echo everyone’s sentiments here but one line that also made me laugh was at the very beginning when the ghosts are sitting around the couch and Stephanie comes in they say something about leaving them alone because they were doing adult things like “planning a dinosaur wedding”. 

[Silver-hyren]

1 hour ago, shura said:

But does it mean she thought she had a phone that could only receive calls and not make them?  Was that a thing?  Why didn’t they get the top model, the one that could make calls too?

I always got the impression Hetty was more impressed with owning the thing rather than actually using it or knowing how it works so it's believable she wouldn't connect the dots that the thing that receives calls can also make them.  Layer on her depression and not knowing how to ask for help and her comment about "not knowing it could be used to make calls" becomes even more tragic.  

[Phebemarie]

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

I agree.  I think it was clear that she choked herself.  Hanging would leave different marks, but also not many rooms have any means of hanging oneself.  Also, Hetty didn't untie the cord from her neck, she unwound it.  

I'm not picking up on what you mean.  If you're implying that she hung herself, see above.  

The phone cord wasn't very long.  Back then, they didn't anticipate people walking around a room with the phone.  The phone stayed put, the cord was long enough to reach to the table.  

Well...I was trying to be a little discreet.  The cord Hetty had wrapped around her neck was long enough to reach Flower at the bottom of a well, so it was longer than standard issue phone cords.  

In the Hollywood Reporter interview, they do sumise that Hetty did commit suicide by hanging herself.  https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/ghosts-rebecca-wisocky-interview-holes-are-bad-1235877076/

[ams1001]

Maybe ghost Hetty can wrap the cord around under her collar to hide it, even though she can't take it off?

[Grundoon59]

As so many others have said, this was just a wonderful episode with all sorts of right notes - to quote (or paraphrase because I might not have it exactly right) Steel Magnolias -"laughter through tears is my favorite emotion".  Amazing work by everyone. 

I assumed Hetty hung herself with the cord which could have stretched it longer than it was in its original state.  Since she was alone in the house while Sass, Thor, Isaac (and poor Patience) were stuck in the well, she might have found a way to conceal it under the dress before the others returned. 

[realitytvfan1017]

On 4/11/2024 at 11:08 PM, DanaK said:

Flower!

I'm happy she's back.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, chaifan said:

  I love that Trevor never noticed Hetty's cord and his confusion with all the layers of her dress. 

Trevor's explanation worked, but I seem to recall the neck being an integral part of canoodling back in my "active" days.
However, I thought I also recalled Hettie telling either Trevor or Isaac not to do that. Anyone else recall this?

[Phebemarie]

When Isaac was pretending to canoodle with Hetty in Thorapy, she urged him to kiss her neck.  (Just double-checked….it was her nape she wanted kissed….but it’s basically the same area). 
 

 

Edited April 19 by Phebemarie

[realitytvfan1017]

Bravo to Rebecca. What great acting by her in that episode. It was a little tough to watch but wonderful job. And of course some really funny moments as always.

21 hours ago, Skooma said:

I really REALLY want to meet that feral Puritan ghost in a future episode!

Oh I hope so!!

[Lugal]

It may take time to collect my thoughts on this one. So much to say, and Rebecca was so good, but just the look on her face when she pulls down her collar to reveal the cord (which I saw as the copper wire that connected it to the wall) said everything. 

3 hours ago, Silver-hyren said:

I always got the impression Hetty was more impressed with owning the thing rather than actually using it or knowing how it works so it's believable she wouldn't connect the dots that the thing that receives calls can also make them.

That's how I saw it too.

[PurpleTentacle]

Ghost rules are weird. I mean if you are in the ground and you jump, shouldn't the higher ground, you jumped to, now become your floor and so you could jump out of any whole (or rather in the dirt next to the hole) in a few hops? Maybe that is a thing and the ghosts just never thought to try it?

[ams1001]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Ghost rules are weird. I mean if you are in the ground and you jump, shouldn't the higher ground, you jumped to, now become your floor and so you could jump out of any whole (or rather in the dirt next to the hole) in a few hops? Maybe that is a thing and the ghosts just never thought to try it?

Wouldn't the concrete just go through her? Then as it builds up below her it becomes floor she can ride up to the top.

Or can they not go through ceilings, either, and concrete falling on her head would be a ceiling?

[PurpleTentacle]

2 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Wouldn't the concrete just go through her? Then as it builds up below her it becomes floor she can ride up to the top.

I think it wouldn't be considered ground till it hardens. But that brings up another question: Can ghosts not swim? Would they just fall through the water, if you threw them in a lake? If they can swim, then yeah flower probably should have been able to float up in the concrete.

[Phebemarie]

I think we need a Ghost Rules category pinned to the top of all the threads for helpful clarification of questions.  ☺️

[Irlandesa]

On 4/18/2024 at 8:47 PM, Jodithgrace said:

My only criticism of this episode is Pete’s wife being MIA. I mean, they can’t have it both ways. Either she’s in the show or she isn’t . Only the basement ghosts are not always around.

Every once in a while in the first three seasons, one of the main ghosts would be missing with no explanation as to where they are.  So it's not just the downstairs ghosts who aren't always around.  I always assumed it was a cost-cutting measure. 

Given the weight of the episode, I think it was a smart choice to keep it to the core group.  Besides, Carol doesn't know Flower. 

On 4/18/2024 at 9:20 PM, possibilities said:

If Isaac let go for a second, why couldn't he just grab Patience's hand again right after?

I'm guessing it was so dark that once he let go of her, he couldn't find her again. 

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, Phebemarie said:

I think we need a Ghost Rules category pinned to the top of all the threads for helpful clarification of questions.  ☺️

Where's Jay and his ghost notes when you need them :D?

12 hours ago, PaulE said:

I loved this, because it shows that Isaac does have a compassionate side even though he's usually too self-absorbed to bother showing it.  We need a little more of that--not all the time, because Isaac's cluelessness is partly what makes him funny, but every now and then so he doesn't become obnoxious.  I actually did think we were in for another "it's all about me" session toward the beginning of the episode when he told Stephanie that having her boyfriend sucked off wasn't nearly as important as planning his dinosaur-themed wedding, but fortunately he stepped up to the plate with Hetty.

Yeah, there was some great quiet acting from Brandon Scott Jones in this episode once Isaac found out about Hetty. I like the little moment after she reveals the rope around her neck, too, when he comes over to her and softly says her name only to back off when she makes it clear now's not the time to discuss it. I like how he knew just how to show his concern without being too pushy about it, while still making clear that he was there if and when she was ready and needed to talk. Same with Sam - I think they handled that aspect really well, too, in regards to the perspective of those who want to help someone who's troubled and struggling but aren't always sure how to respond or what to say. I read something about how the show reached out to mental health experts for this episode to make sure they treated this with the sensitivity it deserved, and I think that really showed in the final product. I appreciate the care that everyone involved took in crafting this story. 

Quote

Speaking of Hetty, this episode made me think that, in one aspect, she has the most nightmarish existence of all the ghosts.  It's true that she's at home in familiar surroundings, which none of the other ghosts have (except partly for Sass), but think about it:  This is the house in which she was coerced into a loveless marriage and lived out the misery and frustration of that marriage, and where she committed suicide.  Later, she had to watch helplessly as her son became a murderer, and since then has had the constant reminder of that because of Alberta's presence, as well as the guilt of knowing Alberta didn't know the truth for so long.  This wasn't a happy house for Hetty.  Most of us, if alive, would probably want to move as far away as possible from those bad vibes, but she can't even do that.  She's got to be under a lot of emotional stress because of all this--I know I would be.

Exactly. This also explains why she's always been particularly vocal about wanting to be sucked off - here we thought it was just about her wanting to escape this endless purgatory (which would be a valid reason in and of itself, mind! - and which would also be a hell of a metaphor for the emotional and mental turmoil she was struggling with), but no, there's a LOT more to it than that. I just really like how this storyline adds to the layers of Hetty and her character like that. 

My mom was stuck on the whole thing of the debts and how Thomas could've still had to deal with the fallout of them after Hetty's death - my theory is that either some relatives knew how to make them go away/paid off the debts, or, given Thomas, upon becoming an adult, eventually got tied iup with bootleggers and mobsters due to his relationship with Earl, maybe that was his way of trying to escape some of those debts as well. 

But yeah, I mean, clearly Hetty was not in a good headspace for thinking logically or rationally in that moment, so in that respect, her reasoning that killing herself would spare Thomas makes sense. 

10 hours ago, Skooma said:

But it is typical of the hilariously dark humor on this and other sitcoms.  Like Hetty talking about child laborers being good to squeeze their little hands into machinery and last week about how hard it was to scrape the guy off the bottom of her steamer trunk. 

She also made a comment at the beginning of this episode about some tragedy befalling a coachman during her recent travels. Apparently traveling with Hetty was done at your own peril :p. 

11 hours ago, Driad said:

If Sam or Jay researched old newspaper reports of Hetty's death, or her death certificate, I wonder what they would find.  Some old newspaper stories include a lot of detail, but others might gloss over the cause to spare the family.

Yeah, I wondered about that, too. She would've been mentioned in the society papers of her time, so I can totally see her family trying to be very discreet about her manner of death. And if they were, given Thomas would've still been a young boy at the time of Hetty's death, that has me wondering if he ever found out the truth about how his mom died, or if his relatives told him something different and he was never the wiser.

At this point Sam could basically make a book of all the newspaper clippings and things of that sort surrounding most of the ghosts' deaths. 

14 hours ago, Silver-hyren said:

I twigged to it when she casually mentioned accidentally OD'ing.  My immediate thought was it was not so accidental.  Turns out I was wrong about manner of death.  And the well becoming a metaphor for depression - *this* was the amazing writing that's been missing all season long!

Yeah, I really like how the title of this episode had so many meanings to it. Such a clever way to connect all the themes and storylines. 

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

 

I'm guessing it was so dark that once he let go of her, he couldn't find her again. 

I just love that this is the second time Isaac sneezing didn't end well for someone. First Nigel, now Patience...apparently it's a bad idea to be around Isaac when he's sneezing :p. 

Edited April 20 by Annber03

[enduringforce]

17 hours ago, DanaK said:

I almost wish they didn’t tell us ahead of time that this episode would be shocking  or give a content warning so that we could be surprised 

I only streamed this show, so I saw no warnings. The build-up to the reveal at the well was perfect and it made me gasp so hard that it would have made Isaac proud! I loved this episode so much!

I also like the part when the ghosts were trying to figure out if they remove floor planks do they keep the ghost properties of floor or become like wall? It kinda of had dialog like the Barbie movie; Ken does beach, not surf. 

[kathyk2]

13 hours ago, PaulE said:

I loved this, because it shows that Isaac does have a compassionate side even though he's usually too self-absorbed to bother showing it.  We need a little more of that--not all the time, because Isaac's cluelessness is partly what makes him funny, but every now and then so he doesn't become obnoxious.  I actually did think we were in for another "it's all about me" session toward the beginning of the episode when he told Stephanie that having her boyfriend sucked off wasn't nearly as important as planning his dinosaur-themed wedding, but fortunately he stepped up to the plate with Hetty.

Speaking of Hetty, this episode made me think that, in one aspect, she has the most nightmarish existence of all the ghosts.  It's true that she's at home in familiar surroundings, which none of the other ghosts have (except partly for Sass), but think about it:  This is the house in which she was coerced into a loveless marriage and lived out the misery and frustration of that marriage, and where she committed suicide.  Later, she had to watch helplessly as her son became a murderer, and since then has had the constant reminder of that because of Alberta's presence, as well as the guilt of knowing Alberta didn't know the truth for so long.  This wasn't a happy house for Hetty.  Most of us, if alive, would probably want to move as far away as possible from those bad vibes, but she can't even do that.  She's got to be under a lot of emotional stress because of all this--I know I would be.

This episode made me hate Elias more than I already did. His selfish behavior destroyed his entire family. I think all charges against Elias and Hetty were dropped when they died.  According to Wikipedia this episode was the second highest rated show of the season after the premiere.

[ams1001]

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

She also made a comment at the beginning of this episode about some tragedy befalling a coachman during her recent travels. Apparently traveling with Hetty was done at your own peril :p. 

Died of fever in Ohio...but they still made good time. Less than two months!

I watched again last night, and rewound the well scene a couple times to focus on individual characters' reactions. Trevor's expression and the way he sort of dipped his head down really got me the most for some reason.

Also, regarding the interview with Rebecca Wisocky quoted above, where she mentioned how her character always stands very close to others, often with an arm around them or otherwise touching...I really noticed that during the second watch. It hadn't really registered as a character choice before but now it makes so much sense.