S02.E08: In Terms of Winning and Losing

[quarks]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I thought that, too. I am sure young people kissed also at that time, but not in the place they could be seen.

And it was rather odd that after Marian said "we will be friends forever", Larry reacted by kissing her. Wouldn't it be awkward to meet again?

So I checked, and the second half of Little Women, which includes Jo and Professor Bhaer kissing in public for the first time - under an umbrella, but in public - was published in 1868/1869, more than a decade before The Gilded Age. I don't think that public kissing among the American upper classes was common, but it probably happened from time to time.

Plus, both of them have been willing to break society's rules before this, what with Marian becoming a teacher and Larry having an affair with an older woman - an affair that definitely included sex outside marriage. So this seems like the sort of thing they might do.

Plus, someone has to provide Mrs. Fish with gossip and drama! She can only get so much out of opera openings and dukes! Even out of people TALKING WHILE THE OPERA IS GOING ON which definitely is something Mrs. Fish should be complaining about and naming names. The HOUSEKEEPER AND THE COOK had the common courtesy to SHUT UP during the performance, wealthy people. Take notes!

 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

So I checked, and the second half of Little Women, which includes Jo and Professor Bhaer kissing in public for the first time - under an umbrella, but in public - was published in 1868/1869, more than a decade before The Gilded Age. I don't think that public kissing among the American upper classes was common, but it probably happened from time to time.

There is an elemental difference: Jo and professor Bhaer kissed after they had just been engaged. Larry hadn't even declared his love, nor his intentions, unlike Raikes did.

Many here have earlier resented that Mr Fortune kissed Peggy in the barn after Ku Klux men had passed as well as Fellowes for describing first racism and then romance. But it's well-known from the time of war that being in danger can increase sexual desirs. 

 

 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Plus, both of them have been willing to break society's rules before this, what with Marian becoming a teacher and Larry having an affair with an older woman - an affair that definitely included sex outside marriage. So this seems like the sort of thing they might do.

It wasn't only breaking the rules of the society but also those of friendship. How can they meet again as friends without feeling themselves awkeward and embrassed? 

And if Larry declares himself after the kiss, it's the lamest plot in the world. 

 

[Haleth]

15 hours ago, taanja said:

I don't know who that is? Has How do we know the show is portraying that person's life?

In addition to the info about Consuelo, it's pretty clear George and Bertha are based on the Vanderbilts, new money that came roaring in like a freight train and took over society.  The competition between Alva V and Lina A was legend, including the opera war.

Here is a drawing of Consuelo, her mother, and the duke by Charles Dana Gibson:

10 hours ago, kay1864 said:

It seemed a bit odd that the Russells celebrated until the wee hours. I imagine they had a midnight supper after the opera? And then a 6 AM breakfast? Awfully long time for everyone (including Marian!) to be sitting around the Russell house chatting about the events of the day.

Chaifan beat me to it but yes, parties would go on throughout the night until morning.  They didn't start until late in the evening though.  I think I read that Alva's big extravaganza started at 10pm.

[Affogato]

What is the “Enid” reference people make. 

[Pestilentia]

15 minutes ago, Affogato said:

What is the “Enid” reference people make. 

She is Turner, formerly Bertha's lady's maid, now married to Mr. Winterton.

[marleyfan]

 

 

Quote

 

What is the “Enid” reference people make. 

 Enid Winterton, née Turner is the young wife of the wealthy Joshua Winterton. Enid Turner was once the ambitious lady's maid of Bertha Russell.   (did a little research for this, since she is rarely called by her first name)

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by marleyfan

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

Larry having an affair with an older woman - an affair that definitely included sex outside marriage

Doesn't his former affair make his kissing Marian suspect that he regards Marian as the next woman who he can seduce?

Why was Raikes condemned for kissing Marian in the hotel but Larry isn't? 

[Affogato]

7 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Doesn't his former affair make his kissing Marian suspect that he regards Marian as the next woman who he can seduce?

Why was Raikes condemned for kissing Marian in the hotel but Larry isn't? 

Well … the doorway of her family house, in public. It is more of a declaration than a prelude to ravishing her. 

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Doesn't his former affair make his kissing Marian suspect that he regards Marian as the next woman who he can seduce?

I think it's been pretty clear Larry has had a crush on Marian since they met.  But she was at some level of involvement with Raikes at that time, and Agnes didn't approve of the Russells, so they became friends instead.  I think he was a little crushed when she accepted Dashiel's proposal (like she had a choice there) and he lit up when she told him she broke it off.  He likes her.

My only quibble with the Marian & Larry kiss is that Marian has seemed to be pretty clear about friend-zoning Larry the entire time.  Every conversation seems to have some sort of "oh, you're such a wonderful friend" thing coming out of her mouth.  I totally buy that Larry is interested in Marian.  But we've never seen even a glimpse of Marian being interested in Larry.  (And why not?  He's cute and not a buffoon, and educated, and they share interests, and oh yeah, wealthy as hell.)  They could have easily set that up, in conversations between her and Ada or Peggy, even just a side glance here or there.  But there's really been nothing from Marian indicating anything more than regarding him as a friend.  Until the kiss, and then she lit up and kissed him back.

For Season 3, I'd love for them to actually date/court, instead of just rush into a marriage proposal and wedding.  But after the wedding, I'd be happy for both to go on a Grand Tour honeymoon and disappear for the rest of the season.  They both bore me most of the time.

 

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Well … the doorway of her family house, in public. It is more of a declaration than a prelude to ravishing her. 

Also, it was early morning - only the servants out and about at that time.  And no one cares what they see.

[taanja]

15 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

She was the only daughter of the Vanderbilt railroad tycoon and was forced by her mother to marry the Duke of Marlborough. She was the first of what was termed by the British as "dollar princesses" - American heiresses who married British aristocrats. Consuelo brought with her a huge dowery and was told by her husband that this was the only reason that he married her - in order to save his ancestral home. Her mother basically traded her daughter and a boatload of money for an aristocratic title, and it was not a happy marriage. 

Interestingly, she does look a bit like the actress playing Gladys...

Very interesting!

I would be OK if that was Gladys's fate. It would sure be fun to watch!!!! Especially if it creates full blown DRAMA between George and Bertha!

 

[Baltimore Betty]

I read "A Well Behaved Woman," it was about the Vanderbilts and Consuela marrying the Duke, their coming in their fortune, etc...I watch this show with the knowledge of the book, I feel like I know more about the Gilded Age now and I really hope there is a Season 3, there is so much more story to tell.  

 

 

[taanja]

15 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Had baseball been that popular in 1880s and had it been properly codified that the term 'three strikes' was part of the vocabulary?

And all that Mrs. Astor stood too lose, she said coup de 'grah'? Grace is pronounced 'grass', of course. A top socialite should have known that.

Ken Burns (I believe?) has a lovely documentary on baseball. and YES! by the 1880's baseball lingo would most deff be a thing!

[chaifan]

1 minute ago, taanja said:

Ken Burns (I believe?) has a lovely documentary on baseball. and YES! by the 1880's baseball lingo would most deff be a thing!

But would it have been a thing for Agnes to say?  Probably not.  Unless she said it with a whiff of "as the commoners say..." 

For me, it wasn't the phrase, it was that it was coming from Agnes. 

[Affogato]

21 minutes ago, chaifan said:

But would it have been a thing for Agnes to say?  Probably not.  Unless she said it with a whiff of "as the commoners say..." 

For me, it wasn't the phrase, it was that it was coming from Agnes. 

I assume she reads newspapers. 

[taanja]

18 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I assume she reads newspapers. 

All I know is I learned more about baseball (the history!) than I ever knew before or even cared to know! Ken Burns, of course, can make anything interesting.

and by the 1880's -- baseball was THE THING! A truly American sport! Even the elite had knowledge of baseball. 

[Atlanta]

13 hours ago, MBayGal said:

You are the first person I've ever known who has favorite tiaras😉😉

If you're into royal jewels and tiaras, these sites are great:

https://www.thecourtjeweller.com/

https://orderofsplendors.blogspot.com/

Princess Angela of Liechtenstein wore the Turnerton tiara at her wedding:

https://www.tatler.com/article/who-is-princess-angela-of-liechtenstein

 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

Well … the doorway of her family house, in public. It is more of a declaration than a prelude to ravishing her. 

And Raikes was, iirc, trying to get her to come into his hotel room.

I don't think Marian's whole "we're friends" thing really meant she wouldn't be interested. She was expressing deep affection for him rather than friend-zoning him imo.

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

My only quibble with the Marian & Larry kiss is that Marian has seemed to be pretty clear about friend-zoning Larry the entire time.  Every conversation seems to have some sort of "oh, you're such a wonderful friend" thing coming out of her mouth.  I totally buy that Larry is interested in Marian.  But we've never seen even a glimpse of Marian being interested in Larry.  (And why not?  He's cute and not a buffoon, and educated, and they share interests, and oh yeah, wealthy as hell.)  They could have easily set that up, in conversations between her and Ada or Peggy, even just a side glance here or there.  But there's really been nothing from Marian indicating anything more than regarding him as a friend.  Until the kiss, and then she lit up and kissed him back.

This bothered me too. Of course she liked him, but we never saw that she LIKED liked him. I'm still not a fan of Louise Jacobson. Maybe a different actress could have given a subtle indication of interest in him. 

How convenient was it that Dashiell revealed he still loves his dead wife. This gave a good and sympathetic reason for Marian to bow out. If she had to just say, "I don't love you like that," she would have come off badly.

I do feel sorry for Oscar even though he should have done his due diligence re Maud. 

[Baltimore Betty]

45 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

How convenient was it that Dashiell revealed he still loves his dead wife.

That was the Ross/Rachel/Emily situation, it was interesting that nobody called Dashiel out on that Freudian slip.

 

[AntFTW]

Mrs. Bruce and the Chef going on a date was kind of adorable. 🥺

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

And Raikes was, iirc, trying to get her to come into his hotel room.

I don't think Marian's whole "we're friends" thing really meant she wouldn't be interested. She was expressing deep affection for him rather than friend-zoning him imo.

I agree with this.  Marian's face always lit up (even in season 1 when it was often otherwise inert) when she saw Larry and vice versa.  She even said something about always being around one another which I thought was pretty telling of her interest in Larry even if she hadn't coalesced her thoughts as to why she might want him always near her. 

And when he suddenly looked at her with his "I think I'm going kiss you face," she looked surprised and happy about it as if she had not really considered this as a possibility but she liked it.  She looked way more receptive than when Raikes kissed her (Not that she resisted Raikes; but she seemed more curious and thrilled by the daring than pleased by Raikes himself).

3 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Princess Angela of Liechtenstein wore the Turnerton tiara at her wedding:

For a wee second I thought this referred to Enid Winterton (nee Turner).

Edited December 19, 2023 by RachelKM
Typos

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Affogato said:

Well … the doorway of her family house, in public. It is more of a declaration than a prelude to ravishing her. 

If it was a declaration, he is also forced to propose. 

[RachelKM]

14 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

If it was a declaration, he is also forced to propose. 

No, not really.  The Victorian age was strict and prudish; but even they didn't expect marriage over a declaration of courting or a kiss in public between people apparently courting.  

If they kissed and then continued to seek other people to court, it would be pretty appalling. But, as long as Marian and Larry resent as formally courting and exclusive, a kiss on a doorstep is not cause for a rush to the alter.

The only truly potentially scandalous aspect is that Marian just broke off an engagement a day or two before.  Of course, people will probably assume she broke it off specifically because of Larry which is fun fodder for Mrs. Fish but not beyond the pale.  Granted, if this relationship didn't result in a proposal and wedding in the near months, that might be a bit much for Marian's reputation.

[Tango64]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

And when he suddenly looked at her with his "I think I'm going kiss you face," she looked surprised and happy about it as if she had not really considered this as a possibility but she liked it.

I loved this scene because they portrayed it in such a genuine way. It made me smile with happiness for them.

[meep.meep]

14 hours ago, quarks said:

 

Plus, someone has to provide Mrs. Fish with gossip and drama! She can only get so much out of opera openings and dukes! Even out of people TALKING WHILE THE OPERA IS GOING ON which definitely is something Mrs. Fish should be complaining about and naming names. The HOUSEKEEPER AND THE COOK had the common courtesy to SHUT UP during the performance, wealthy people. Take notes!

 

The 400 aren't there to hear the music, they are there to be seen and talk to one another.  It's only the Housekeeper and Cook who really want to hear the opera.

[SG429]

Well, I'm relieved as I was dreading an unfortunate intersection of Duped and Dejected Oscar with the new Bklyn Bridge, just before the Rev Richy Rich Reveal.

Edited December 19, 2023 by SG429

[SoWindsor]

Why is it that Gladys would be a prize to a Duke of England? What am I missing? I think if he at least flirted with her more at the dinner where they sat together it would make sense that at least he liked her. But neither seemed to have any interest in the other. It was scandalous in the 1930s when The Duke dated Wallis Simpson because she was an American. The divorcee part was worse of course. But unless Hector was enamored by Gladys, it doesn't make any sense why he would covet her.

[AntFTW]

19 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

Why is it that Gladys would be a prize to a Duke of England? What am I missing?

She’s rich. That’s all.

He needs money. She has money.

Edited December 20, 2023 by AntFTW

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, SoWindsor said:

Why is it that Gladys would be a prize to a Duke of England? What am I missing?

It's more about what the Duke is missing, i.e. money.

Throughout the history of nobility, there were instances of bankrupted titles. There had long been instances of a handful of merchants here and there making enough money to slap a huge dowry on their daughters and essentially buy their way into nobility.  Society was still strict enough that the merchant himself and his wife would still be outside. But the daughter and her descendants would be integrated into that world. 

In the late 19th century, the industrial revolution created a new wealthy class that was outside the traditional nobility and landed gentry system and society. It was the invention of self-engendered upward mobility.  Nowhere was that more true than America.  The type of money amassed by Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Rockefeller was basically unheard-of outside actual royal families. 

Nobility seeking to truly fill the coffers of their estates began marrying American heiresses with their multi-MILLION dollar dowries. 

 

ETA:  Or what @AntFTW far more succinctly. LOL

Edited December 20, 2023 by RachelKM

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, SoWindsor said:

Why is it that Gladys would be a prize to a Duke of England? What am I missing? I think if he at least flirted with her more at the dinner where they sat together it would make sense that at least he liked her. But neither seemed to have any interest in the other. It was scandalous in the 1930s when The Duke dated Wallis Simpson because she was an American. The divorcee part was worse of course. But unless Hector was enamored by Gladys, it doesn't make any sense why he would covet her.

When he looks at her he sees a woman-sized burlap bag of money with a dollar sign on it wearing a big hat.

[izabella]

4 hours ago, Tango64 said:

I loved this scene because they portrayed it in such a genuine way. It made me smile with happiness for them.

I surprised myself by feeling the same way.  All along, I didn't really care either way about them as a couple, except how it might set up a few good scenes between Agnes and Bertha.   But I was charmed by their moment on the stairs, and now I'm rooting for them.

I am rooting for Gladys, too, and don't want her to be sold off to the Duke.  I see no signs that she likes him, and I can't imagine she wants to leave everyone behind in NY to move to England.  But I am looking forward to the fireworks in the Russell house when Bertha's bargain becomes known.

Oskar brought all his troubles on himself, but I'm tired of watching him lose all the time.  I like happy, fun Oskar.  I would have liked to see him and Marion develop more of a relationship, but we didn't get much of that.

I'm glad we did get a lot of events, dinners and parties this season, which meant lots of gorgeous gowns.  I was disappointed by Bertha's, Gladys', and Marian's Met gowns, though.  Neither the colors nor the designs worked for me.

[AntFTW]

35 minutes ago, izabella said:

Oskar brought all his troubles on himself, but I'm tired of watching him lose all the time.  I like happy, fun Oskar.

I’m evil. I like seeing Oscar lose 😁

Although, I do find his, Marian, and Ada’s relationship endearing.

[ahpny]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:20 PM, BeatrixK said:

So an alarm clock mechanism that doesn't use oil will SURE come in handy for a rail road guy who needs stuff to run on time!  I don't care...i love John's earnestness and I love he will have the Russell's backing him.

John is a likeable character for whom it's easy to root, but the patent nonsense continues to irk. Patent applications are not “accepted;” the primary components of an application are “allowed” or “rejected.” If rejected, those components (called “claims”) can be modified to some degree and sent back to the patent office for another try with argument about why they should be allowed. There’s no indication that that happened here. Moreover, none of this happens quickly, as in the presumed time frame presented here. Also, the issuance of a patent is not, as presented here, not like a large money lottery ticket win. The vast majority of issued patents, i.e., those patent applications allowed by the Patent Office, never make a dime for anyone (other than the patent lawyers and the Patent Office of course). Only some patents make vast fortunes, but those are the ones most well-known. It is nevertheless correct – then and now – that inventors often need savvy business types to monetize their patents, and young Mr. Russell seems like a stand up guy unlikely “steal” the clock invention in a presumed season 3.

[LaDuchesse]

On 12/18/2023 at 8:06 PM, MBayGal said:

You are the first person I've ever known who has favorite tiaras😉😉

It’s a very niche hobby. 😊

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

It was scandalous in the 1930s when The Duke dated Wallis Simpson because she was an American. The divorcee part was worse of course. 

It was already scandalous that the Prince of Wales (and later the King) openly performed with his mistress. Wallis was still married with her second husband (she sued for divorce only in the fall 1936 and the divorce became absolute only next spring). 

[Yeah No]

On 12/18/2023 at 8:21 AM, ofmd said:

For all the accuracy and care they put into the historical costumes, I wish they'd be equally as careful with the way people speak. "It's time I took control of my life" strikes me as anachronistic, one of many instances with this show. And also the way they would conduct themselves. Kissing at the front door with everyone to see? (Larry did that with his first lover, too.) Heck, I'm not even sure their innocent, frequent one-on-one meetings in the street wouldn't have gotten the rumor mill going.

I've been thinking the same thing, especially about that phrase.  Were women even allowed to think that way back then?   Even if they were ultra progressive and did, it wouldn't be put quite that way.  And this is not the first time I've seen PDA on this show that would likely not have ever happened at the time.  Period fiction always finds something to err on.  Often it's costumes and hairstyles.  Here it's a too-modern way of speaking and attitude, especially among the women.  I guess it has to be "relatable" to the modern audience and they want to promote a more progressive view of women.  

As far historicity goes, it has been obvious to me how the opera wars were going to end from day one since any New Yorker knows the Metropolitan and the only Academy of anything we know is BAM in Brooklyn (Brooklyn Academy of Music), which was started in the 1860s to serve rich Brooklynites who wanted a local musical venue before the Brooklyn Bridge made the trip to Manhattan easier.  I don't even know if the academy referred to in this drama was ever real, but at least I knew which one survived.  I thought it was funny that someone casually referred to it as "The Met", which is of course what it has been called in modern times.  So when it was said that this opening of the Metropolitan was history in the making, it was actually based in truth.

I love that Marian said no to Dashiell, and I do ship "Larian" but her attitude is also way modern in turning Dashiell down especially after accepting him publicly and especially after her family just lost its fortune.  I don't know that any young woman in her position would have been that independent and forward thinking to actually back out even if she wanted to back then.  But it is great fiction and what the audience wants Marian to do, so I can forgive it.

As far as Ada goes, I could see all of that a mile away.  I knew the van Rhijns would find fortune again, either by way of Maud Beaton being caught or Ada inheriting money from the rector.  Too bad I didn't post those theories before it happened, LOL.  I still don't rule out the possibility of Oscar trying to track down the swindlers to right the wrong and get back into his mother's good graces.  That would make great fiction too.

It will be fun to see the tables turned with an Aunt Ada with power and money of her own to rule the family household and have more control over her sister.  Of course if they are to be true to the ways of the time, she would go back to live at the family home because she likely lived in the church rectory with Luke and would have to vacate it on the arrival of a new church rector.  Also, that's just what single/divorced and widowed women DID back then.  In the absence of a man, they resided with other single/divorced/widowed family members or even with family members who had spouses and children.  And it didn't matter if they were independently wealthy and could afford to live alone.  It wouldn't be seen as "proper" for them to live alone.  When doing my own genealogy, especially of my NYC family, I saw this over and over again.  

Here's to a season 3!  I hate to have to be concerned over whether there will be one.  I can't imagine this show isn't wildly popular.

[Affogato]

This age is at the brink of the modern era. Eventually gladys and Bertha will reconcile over their shared goal of controlling their own lives. There are many controlling women in the show, including Agnes and Bertha and Aurora Fane and all of them. I don’t see any reason why Marion shouldn’t want to be the helmsperson of her own life and say so. In addition she has had the experience if foundering because someone else, her father, waas rowing the boat. 

[Yeah No]

On 12/20/2023 at 6:58 AM, Affogato said:

This age is at the brink of the modern era. Eventually gladys and Bertha will reconcile over their shared goal of controlling their own lives. There are many controlling women in the show, including Agnes and Bertha and Aurora Fane and all of them. I don’t see any reason why Marion shouldn’t want to be the helmsperson of her own life and say so. In addition she has had the experience if foundering because someone else, her father, waas rowing the boat. 

I've rewritten this post twice now thanks to the site problems, but we modern women don't see any reason why these women shouldn't be in control of their own lives, but women in the Victorian age were only allowed to "control" things in the domestic and social areas and in those certain situations where they held property.  There were still a lot of areas where it would have been frowned upon or outright forbidden for them to have any control over, and they themselves would not have even aspired to do so because they "knew their place".  There were only certain careers they were allowed to enter and control over their lives were largely determined by their families and husbands, and even if they did buck their expectations of them they bore the negative social consequences of doing so. 

Also they were expected to have a certain attitude of subservience to men that again, if they dared not have they bore the consequences.  Even Mrs. Astor, who wielded great power in her socially accepted sphere would have had to acquiesce to her husband's disapproval if she overstepped that sphere or even did something within it to offend him.  While I love the relationship between George and Bertha that aspect is not depicted, giving a more modern impression of the balance of power in their relationship.  While their relationship may seem to be very egalitarian, it may only seem that way on the surface because Bertha is not transgressing any unwritten expectation of what is considered appropriate for her to do.  But if she should overstep that expectation to independently control more of her life (or others' lives) it would not be met positively, even by George.   Women were only given freedom to control their lives as much as their families and spouses allowed them to control them.  This of course was in the process of changing, but I feel that some of what we are seeing on this show was still at least a few decades in the future.  Not enough is being shown of the extent women in that age were restricted by social expectations in general and how controlled they were by men's expectations of them.

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

While their relationship may seem to be very egalitarian, it may only seem that way on the surface because Bertha is not transgressing any unwritten expectation of what is considered appropriate for her to do.  But if she should overstep that expectation to independently control more of her life (or others' lives) it would not be met positively, even by George.

I think this is kind-of shown when Bertha wants to outbid Mrs. Astor for the Duke, although it's very light and not heavy-handed on George's part.

He puts his foot down that he's not spending money to outbid Mrs. Astor to get this Duke to show up at The Met. Bertha just has to accept to that and figure out a workaround in a way that doesn't go against George, which Bertha seemingly did.

[Yeah No]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I think this is kind-of shown when Bertha wants to outbid Mrs. Astor for the Duke, although it's very light and not heavy-handed on George's part.

He puts his foot down that he's not spending money to outbid Mrs. Astor to get this Duke to show up at The Met. Bertha just has to accept to that and figure out a workaround in a way that doesn't go against George, which Bertha seemingly did.

Yeah that's true, it is lighter and not as heavy handed on George's part because he doesn't show that certain paternalistic male chauvinist attitude that men would have had at the time.  I think of it as men treating women like they were their children in a sense, scolding them and praising them as if they were children and not independent adults.  It's more of an attitude I'm talking about than anything else.  It's something all I have to do to see is watch some old movies from the '30s and '40s set in Victorian times.  I'm thinking of "Gaslight" the movie as an example.  

[ChiCricket]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:17 PM, AntFTW said:

I’m evil. I like seeing Oscar lose

Me too. I was trying to think what about his appearance made me dislike him so much, and then I remembered that he looks like Snidely Whiplash (the evil cartoon villain) 😁

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I've rewritten this post twice now thanks to the site problems, but we modern women don't see any reason why these women shouldn't be in control of their own lives, but women in the Victorian age were only allowed to "control" things in the domestic and social areas and in those certain situations where they held property.  There were still a lot of areas where it would have been frowned upon or outright forbidden for them to have any control over, and they themselves would not have even aspired to do so because they "knew their place".  There were only certain careers they were allowed to enter and control over their lives were largely determined by their families and husbands, and even if they did buck their expectations of them they bore the negative social consequences of doing so. 

Also they were expected to have a certain attitude of subservience to men that again, if they dared not have they bore the consequences.  Even Mrs. Astor, who wielded great power in her socially accepted sphere would have had to acquiesce to her husband's disapproval if she overstepped that sphere or even did something within it to offend him.  While I love the relationship between George and Bertha that aspect is not depicted, giving a more modern impression of the balance of power in their relationship.  While their relationship may seem to be very egalitarian, it may only seem that way on the surface because Bertha is not transgressing any unwritten expectation of what is considered appropriate for her to do.  But if she should overstep that expectation to independently control more of her life (or others' lives) it would not be met positively, even by George.   Women were only given freedom to control their lives as much as their families and spouses allowed them to control them.  This of course was in the process of changing, but I feel that some of what we are seeing on this show was still at least a few decades in the future.  Not enough is being shown of the extent women in that age were restricted by social expectations in general and how controlled they were by men's expectations of them.

Yes and I would add that the things you mention are also true today. Mostly in a subtler way. But the point is that a woman at that time could still say she was taking control of her life and feel as if she could—whether you disagree with her or not.  She would be frustrated, of course, and would lead to a desire and push for change in the future. But her goals to some extent would align with thiose of her family, which would help. 

[Baltimore Betty]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:37 AM, Roseanna said:

It was already scandalous that the Prince of Wales (and later the King) openly performed with his mistress. Wallis was still married with her second husband (she sued for divorce only in the fall 1936 and the divorce became absolute only next spring). 

When I got married the first time my wedding reception was in Wallis Simpson's aunt and uncle's house here in Baltimore, (she lived with them for a while since she and her mother were financially strapped), I am oddly proud of that bit of history. 

 

 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

Yes and I would add that the things you mention are also true today. Mostly in a subtler way. But the point is that a woman at that time could still say she was taking control of her life and feel as if she could—whether you disagree with her or not.  She would be frustrated, of course, and would lead to a desire and push for change in the future. But her goals to some extent would align with thiose of her family, which would help. 

I doubt if people even today can control their life - accidents and illnesses can happen, not to speak of universal calamnities. 

Formerly it was worse. A married woman usually lost at least of one of her children. Many women were afraid of becoming pregnant over and over and dying in childbirth.

Ada told Marian that Agnes's husband was such than one didn't want to be in the same room with him. I guess that it was meant to hint how dreadful it was that Agnes had to sleep with her husband - a wife had no control of her body, her husband owned it. 

But it's never only about outer conditions but also about innner drives. Although Bertha seems to believe that she contols of her life and that of her daughter, in fact her social ambition is so overwhelming that it must have caused by some kind of trauma and it's that trauma that actually controls her. She is ready to sacrifice Glady in order to get indemnity for some wrong that has formerly done to her.

 

[sistermagpie]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:51 AM, Yeah No said:

I don't even know if the academy referred to in this drama was ever real, but at least I knew which one survived. 

Just FYI, it was real--this opera war is based on the real opera war.

[Scarlett45]

19 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Yeah that's true, it is lighter and not as heavy handed on George's part because he doesn't show that certain paternalistic male chauvinist attitude that men would have had at the time.  I think of it as men treating women like they were their children in a sense, scolding them and praising them as if they were children and not independent adults.  It's more of an attitude I'm talking about than anything else.  It's something all I have to do to see is watch some old movies from the '30s and '40s set in Victorian times.  I'm thinking of "Gaslight" the movie as an example.  

Yes. George does love and care for Bertha- but he’s in charge, and when he says “no more” that’s the end of it. They do consult each other about things because they have a genuine friendship and romance, but Bertha is in charge of the domestic side and he the business/external side. 

[Salacious Kitty]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes. George does love and care for Bertha- but he’s in charge, and when he says “no more” that’s the end of it. They do consult each other about things because they have a genuine friendship and romance, but Bertha is in charge of the domestic side and he the business/external side. 

Bertha selling Gladys to the Duke will certainly cause marital strife next season. Ah well, it's time to shake things up a bit. Bertha can't always get her way.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Bertha selling Gladys to the Duke will certainly cause marital strife next season. Ah well, it's time to shake things up a bit. Bertha can't always get her way.

Yes I certainly agree on that! George loves his kids, and I think he meant it that he wants Gladys to find love (and if she doesn’t it’s not like she has to marry to survive). He doesn’t need her (or Larry) to make a successful match for his own ego the way Bertha does (I know she loves her kids, but that’s about her social come up NOT their’s). 
 

Gladys will NOT want to marry the Duke, and George will back her up. 

[magdalene]

20 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I've rewritten this post twice now thanks to the site problems, but we modern women don't see any reason why these women shouldn't be in control of their own lives, but women in the Victorian age were only allowed to "control" things in the domestic and social areas and in those certain situations where they held property.  There were still a lot of areas where it would have been frowned upon or outright forbidden for them to have any control over, and they themselves would not have even aspired to do so because they "knew their place".  There were only certain careers they were allowed to enter and control over their lives were largely determined by their families and husbands, and even if they did buck their expectations of them they bore the negative social consequences of doing so. 

Also they were expected to have a certain attitude of subservience to men that again, if they dared not have they bore the consequences.  Even Mrs. Astor, who wielded great power in her socially accepted sphere would have had to acquiesce to her husband's disapproval if she overstepped that sphere or even did something within it to offend him.  While I love the relationship between George and Bertha that aspect is not depicted, giving a more modern impression of the balance of power in their relationship.  While their relationship may seem to be very egalitarian, it may only seem that way on the surface because Bertha is not transgressing any unwritten expectation of what is considered appropriate for her to do.  But if she should overstep that expectation to independently control more of her life (or others' lives) it would not be met positively, even by George.   Women were only given freedom to control their lives as much as their families and spouses allowed them to control them.  This of course was in the process of changing, but I feel that some of what we are seeing on this show was still at least a few decades in the future.  Not enough is being shown of the extent women in that age were restricted by social expectations in general and how controlled they were by men's expectations of them.

I don't know whether this happened to women in the US but in England a husband could legally commit his wife to an Insane Asylum - and that wasn't always done for insanity reasons. It was done when a wife got "out of control" and sometimes for downright nefarious reasons.  I am sure - hopefully - most husbands wouldn't have done this to their wives - but the whole notion has always terrified me. Even the children born from the marital union were the possession of the husband.

George seems in some ways very progressive but what would he do if Bertha got "out of control"?