S02.E08: In Terms of Winning and Losing

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, magdalene said:

I don't know whether this happened to women in the US but in England a husband could legally commit his wife to an Insane Asylum - and that wasn't always done for insanity reasons. It was done when a wife got "out of control" and sometimes for downright nefarious reasons.  I am sure - hopefully - most husbands wouldn't have done this to their wives - but the whole notion has always terrified me. Even the children born from the marital union were the possession of the husband.

George seems in some ways very progressive but what would he do if Bertha got "out of control"?

Yup, that was done in the US too. I'm with you on it being terrifying.

[Sarah 103]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:18 PM, Atlanta said:

Larrian!!! When the appropriate amount of time has passed, please let them court and marry. I also want comedic family dinners with the Russells and Agnes.

On 12/17/2023 at 10:30 PM, chaifan said:

I was never shipping Larian, and honestly, up until the last few minutes of the show I really didn't care whether it happened or not.  But I was surprisingly happy when they kissed.  Really, more of Larry kissing Marian, and Marian really kissing him back! 

On 12/19/2023 at 9:40 PM, izabella said:

 All along, I didn't really care either way about them as a couple, except how it might set up a few good scenes between Agnes and Bertha.   But I was charmed by their moment on the stairs, and now I'm rooting for them.

Same here. I am now team Larian all the way and rooting hard for them to become an official couple.

On 12/18/2023 at 5:42 AM, BeatrixK said:

Bring on Larion so that we can see Agnes stress over having to receive 'New Money' on 61st street please!

On 12/18/2023 at 3:42 PM, tennisgurl said:

Really, I might just be extra rooting for them to get together so that we would get really awkward dinners between Agnes and Bertha as they try to play nice but are glaring daggers.

This is one of the reasons why I think having a long courtship and marriage would be absolutely fantastic. Snark to snark combat from Agnes and Bertha at family events/major holidays would be fantastic. Not to mention all of the drama about who gets to host what, which is where this show thrives.

The opera war was stupid petty nonsense, but I was completely enthralled by it and loved the way Fellows treated which opera the Duke attended as a serious high stakes moment. I really enjoyed the opera war plotline this season.

On 12/17/2023 at 10:18 PM, Atlanta said:

If Gladys must be a dollar princess, let her and the duke fall in love. She deserves better than Consuelo Vanderbilt.

On 12/18/2023 at 7:31 AM, chitowngirl said:

Perhaps a mini Hallmark movie-Gladys can’t stand him and then the clouds are lifted and he’s everything she didn’t know she was looking for.

Given that the series is written by Julian Fellows, I am pretty sure this is what will happen. Or, since this is Julian Fellows, I predict the Duke will have some sort of horrible fatal accident after the engagement but before the wedding.

On 12/17/2023 at 10:42 PM, Jodithgrace said:

I wonder if next season we will see him track down the slippery Miss Beaton.

This totally sounds like a Julian Fellows plot. It could be fun or awful.

On 12/18/2023 at 1:38 AM, buttersister said:

Ok. Bring on the daddy/mommy wars. Daddy loves his Gladys.

Also, I think George understands how much Bertha's love and devotion has helped his career. They are a team, united by love and passion for each other. George and Bertha genuinely care and support each other. He wants that for his daughter. 

On 12/18/2023 at 6:39 AM, NeenerNeener said:

If Ada leaves all her money to Marion, will Bertha be ok with her marrying Larry? The Van Rhijns (and maybe the Brooks) are old money, after all, and Agnes hangs out with Mrs. Astor. That may be the plot for the third season, if there is one.

I don't think Bertha would have any problem with Larry marrying Marion. She's old money, young, and unlikely to cause a scandal serious enough to harm their reputation or damage their place in society.

On 12/19/2023 at 9:46 AM, chaifan said:

For Season 3, I'd love for them to actually date/court, instead of just rush into a marriage proposal and wedding. 

I am sure the relationship/courtship will move at an absolute glacial pace. I predict there will be multiple seasons before they actually get married.

[iMonrey]

What I'd like to see in season 3 is some kind of redemption for Oscar and Agnes because they both came off as total idiots due to this idiot plotting. 

It might be fun to see Ada playing Lady of the Manor for an episode or two, but ultimately Oscar and Agnes should regain their dignity. Otherwise they're just a couple of morons.

I'm not especially invested in Bertha and George because they always seem to come out on top. It's fun to see CarrieCoon swanning about in fabulous gowns but that only gets you so far, story wise. They feel like window dressing.

I know it's a pipe dream but I'd prefer they write off Peggy. Or at least spin her off into a different show. If  you're into her story you can follow her there. She doesn't seem to belong.

e.t.a. OMG lol this forum won't let me write the last name of the actress who plays Bertha.

Edited December 24, 2023 by iMonrey

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes. George does love and care for Bertha- but he’s in charge, and when he says “no more” that’s the end of it. They do consult each other about things because they have a genuine friendship and romance, but Bertha is in charge of the domestic side and he the business/external side. 

If they had real friendship, they would make each other better. Instead, George let Bertha to rise Gladys in the wrong way and Bertha didn't care that George bribed politicians in the first season.  

This couple is outside succesful and sexy, but inside they are rotten and shallow. 

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, magdalene said:

I don't know whether this happened to women in the US but in England a husband could legally commit his wife to an Insane Asylum - and that wasn't always done for insanity reasons. It was done when a wife got "out of control" and sometimes for downright nefarious reasons.  I am sure - hopefully - most husbands wouldn't have done this to their wives - but the whole notion has always terrified me. Even the children born from the marital union were the possession of the husband.

George seems in some ways very progressive but what would he do if Bertha got "out of control"?

To this day people do this to old people, in the US. It is frighteningly easy to get guardianship of a vulnerable person and their assets. Actually it is not impossuble that this happens to someone with mental illness, for the convenience of others. 

[oceanblue]

In the real life story, the Vanderbilt's who crashed society were the grandson and daughter in law of the Vanderbilt who made the money - ie, Cornelius, the Commodore, so named because he started by rowing a ferry boat from Staten Island to Manhattan and built that into a fleet of ships doing local runs and then became a railroad magnate.  Cornelius committed his wife of thirty years and the mother of his 12 children to an insane asylum so he could openly enjoy his mistress, the younger children's governess.

[magdalene]

On 12/19/2023 at 4:34 AM, Roseanna said:

Doesn't his former affair make his kissing Marian suspect that he regards Marian as the next woman who he can seduce?

Why was Raikes condemned for kissing Marian in the hotel but Larry isn't? 

Wasn't his former lover an older than him widow?  Gentlemen had affairs with widows and married ladies quite commonly and as long as both parties were discreet this was accepted by society and wouldn't ruin anybody involved.

The location makes the difference too - the hotel was a big no-no for a young lady who is presumed to be a virgin to be meeting and kissing a man there. Raikes really put Marian on the spot there.

Larry has been established as a rather nice young gentleman who I doubt is in the habit of seducing virgins like some romance novel rake. No, they were both carried away and like every one here in this forum I think they are headed towards marriage.

[lemoncake]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:19 AM, Sarah 103 said:

don't think Bertha would have any problem with Larry marrying Marion. She's old money, young, and unlikely to cause a scandal serious enough to harm their reputation or damage their place in society.

I kind of disagree. While Marian has old money in her family, she is a poor relation and doesn't have the stratospheric pedigree Bertha is looking for in her children's marriages. I think she likes her well enough and Marian was very kind to the family when they were shunned initially, as long as she's in Larry's friend zone she's fine. But I can see Bertha wanting Larry to marry a woman in the upper upper crust or European royalty. That said as others have said, the rules for men and women at that time were very different and I suspect Larry will have more of a say so in his marriage, unlike Gladys. 

[mojito]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:30 AM, Roseanna said:

This couple is outside succesful and sexy, but inside they are rotten and shallow. 

There's a whole lot of rotten and shallow going on with the characters on this show. Except for those under age 30, some of the staff, and Peggy, I have little respect for most of these people and find myself regretting that most will be dead before they can see World War I, the crash of '29, and the Great Depression whittle away so mch of their fortunes, not to mention the north-creeping urban population and retail businesses that will take over their neighborhoods. 

This show provides a good look at just how fleeting power, acquisitions, fortunes,  relationships, etc., are. The elite of the Gilded Age, if able to look back at their lives over 140 years ago, would probably shake their heads at just how small and petty their lives were, as I do watching this show. For this reason, the putting life into perspective and the history, I enjoy watching this show.

Now, to the episode. When Agnes made the comment about friendships being heriditary, I got a chuckle out of Marian's very subtle near-eyeroll. She just sort of deadpanned a "Kill me now" look across the table.

Marian's gotten pretty feisty. I was surprised to hear her talking to the servants about looking for other jobs and also at her standing up to Agnes so much. Of course, considering her financial situation, I think much credit has to go to Agatha for allowing Marian a streak of independence, much as Agnes doesn't like it.

I have had a problem throughout this series with two of the characters. Charles, Aurora Fane's husband, looks like he should be playing her son, not her husband, and Oscar looks like he should be Agnes and Ada's brother, not son. Every time I see each character, my mind has to do a reset and either add or subtract years to or from them.

[Baltimore Betty]

3 minutes ago, mojito said:

I have had a problem throughout this series with two of the characters. Charles, Aurora Fane's husband,

100%! Every time they are on the screen I have to remind myself he is her husband and not her son.

[RachelKM]

18 minutes ago, mojito said:

I have had a problem throughout this series with two of the characters. Charles, Aurora Fane's husband, looks like he should be playing her son, not her husband

11 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

100%! Every time they are on the screen I have to remind myself he is her husband and not her son.

Yikes.  Kelli O'Hara and Ward Horton are the same age.  He's actually a few months older. I do think he looks a bit young for for 47 (almost 48) but not enough to look like he could be Kelli's son. 

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, lemoncake said:

 I suspect Larry will have more of a say so in his marriage, unlike Gladys. 

Yeah, Bertha can shut Gladys in her room until she agrees to marry who her mum has chosen to her, but not Larry.

On the other hand, parents didn't usually determine marriages, but young people met suitable spouses via relatives, friends and at social gatherings. Marian wouldn't a best choice but still a good one, not scandalous as Turner.

[Baltimore Betty]

11 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Yikes.  Kelli O'Hara and Ward Horton are the same age.  He's actually a few months older. I do think he looks a bit young for for 47 (almost 48) but not enough to look like he could be Kelli's son. 

It's not that she really looks so old to have a 48 year old son but it is her character's demeanor and the matronly costumes, I am sure in real life the two probably look very much like contemporaries. 

[BeatrixK]

22 hours ago, lemoncake said:

I kind of disagree. While Marian has old money in her family, she is a poor relation and doesn't have the stratospheric pedigree Bertha is looking for in her children's marriages. I think she likes her well enough and Marian was very kind to the family when they were shunned initially, as long as she's in Larry's friend zone she's fine. But I can see Bertha wanting Larry to marry a woman in the upper upper crust or European royalty. That said as others have said, the rules for men and women at that time were very different and I suspect Larry will have more of a say so in his marriage, unlike Gladys. 

BUT - Marion did save George's bacon with the stenographer, AND got Bertha to dump Turner.  Plus, Marion did go to her 'At Home' when no one else did.  Marion has proven herself 'loyal' to Bertha - albeit inadvertently - and Bertha would probably enjoy the fact it would drive Agnes nuts in the process.

Larry's main job is to make little Russell heirs that carry on the Russell name with an acceptable society woman.  Marion fits that bill, and Bertha does like her....I don't see Larry having any issues making our 'Larionship' dreams a reality.

[chaifan]

16 hours ago, mojito said:

When Agnes made the comment about friendships being heriditary, I got a chuckle out of Marian's very subtle near-eyeroll. She just sort of deadpanned a "Kill me now" look across the table.

I'm not fond of Louisa Jacobson as an actor, but I will give her credit for this.  Her various eye-rolls and facial expressions are very well done.  Most are in response to lines from Agnes, but there were a few with Dashiel, too. 

16 hours ago, mojito said:

Charles, Aurora Fane's husband, looks like he should be playing her son, not her husband, and Oscar looks like he should be Agnes and Ada's brother, not son.

I think Charles looks younger than Aurora, but not enough to be her son.  But damn, he is very handsome.  I think he's the most attractive man on the show. 

I agree that Oscar looks a bit older than he's supposed to be, but the character really should be close to 10 years older than he is.  Assuming Agnes is the same age as Christine B., around 70, it would make more sense for Oscar to be pushing 50.  (I think we've established he's around 40, or younger?)  Waiting until 30 to have a baby back then would have been quite unusual.  OK, maybe Agnes had multiple miscarriages/still births, etc. 

They make Ada look much closer to Agnes in age than CB and CN really are.  There's a 15 year real life age difference there, but I think they look within just a few years of each other on the show.  (Ada looks much older than CN is.)

 

[RachelKM]

53 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I agree that Oscar looks a bit older than he's supposed to be, but the character really should be close to 10 years older than he is.  Assuming Agnes is the same age as Christine B., around 70, it would make more sense for Oscar to be pushing 50.  (I think we've established he's around 40, or younger?)  Waiting until 30 to have a baby back then would have been quite unusual.  OK, maybe Agnes had multiple miscarriages/still births, etc. 

I've generally assumed that character is meant to be around 5 -10 years younger than the person portraying them, except for Carrie c**** and Morgan Spector who are playing characters approximate their ages (perhaps a few years older depending on how old Larry actually is.) 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I agree that Oscar looks a bit older than he's supposed to be, but the character really should be close to 10 years older than he is.  Assuming Agnes is the same age as Christine B., around 70, it would make more sense for Oscar to be pushing 50.  (I think we've established he's around 40, or younger?)  Waiting until 30 to have a baby back then would have been quite unusual.  OK, maybe Agnes had multiple miscarriages/still births, etc. 

We don't know how old Agnes was when she married, she could as well be 30 as 20 years old. During he marriage she had no way to plan her pregnacies - if her husband wanted to have sex with her, she had no right to refuse and any contraception methods there existed could only be used by him.

But in the age where the infant mortality was high, to have only one child would be tempting the fate. And Agnes told to Peggy that she knew how it felt to lose a child (or children).

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

Assuming Agnes is the same age as Christine B., around 70, it would make more sense for Oscar to be pushing 50.  (I think we've established he's around 40, or younger?)  Waiting until 30 to have a baby back then would have been quite unusual.  OK, maybe Agnes had multiple miscarriages/still births, etc.

I always thought there were miscarriages, still births, and babies who died young. I don't she waited until 30 to have children. I think she had the only child who lived to be an adult at 30. She had other children, but Oscar is the only one who lived long enough to grow into adulthood.

[jenn31]

Good for Peggy. You see, homewreckers? That’s the way you do it. Eliminate the temptation by removing yourself from the equation. 😛

[Sailorgirl26]

5 hours ago, jenn31 said:

Good for Peggy. You see, homewreckers? That’s the way you do it. Eliminate the temptation by removing yourself from the equation. 😛

WHY is the woman once again being blamed and labeled a homewrecker when it is the man who is in the wrong? Can we PLEASE put that misogynistic term that absolves men of any responsibility for their actions once and for all.

Why is the responsibility Peggy's to "do the right thing" by quitting a job she loves instead of the married man who has the responsibility to be faithful to his spouse? 

Yes that was the norm in the era this show is set but we are fortunately not in those times.

[jenn31]

6 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

WHY is the woman once again being blamed and labeled a homewrecker when it is the man who is in the wrong? Can we PLEASE put that misogynistic term that absolves men of any responsibility for their actions once and for all.

Why is the responsibility Peggy's to "do the right thing" by quitting a job she loves instead of the married man who has the responsibility to be faithful to his spouse? 

Yes that was the norm in the era this show is set but we are fortunately not in those times.

I never said the woman is the homewrecker. That’s your own assumption. The man is just as much of a homewrecker, and should have stayed away. I’m only applauding Peggy because she happened to be the one who walked away here. My point is that if the temptation is too strong for you to resist, then stay away. Many have, both men and women. 

[Sailorgirl26]

5 hours ago, jenn31 said:

I never said the woman is the homewrecker. That’s your own assumption. The man is just as much of a homewrecker, and should have stayed away. I’m only applauding Peggy because she happened to be the one who walked away here. My point is that if the temptation is too strong for you to resist, then stay away. Many have, both men and women. 

Fair point but the implication was there by pointing out that "homewreckers" should do the "right thing" by "removing themselves from the situation." As Peggy was the one who quit her job, thus removing herself from the situation, my inference is valid.  The point remains that Peggy is not a homewrecker at all and saying the man is "just as much" still places blame on the woman--that there is equal and shared blame when there wasn't. 

But fortunately, we live in different times where we can speak out about these categorizations and assign responsibility where it belongs instead of automatically ascribing it to one party, historically the female.

Hooray progress!! 😎😎

Edited December 29, 2023 by Sailorgirl26

[Pop Tart]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:46 AM, chaifan said:

I totally buy that Larry is interested in Marian.  But we've never seen even a glimpse of Marian being interested in Larry.  (And why not?  He's cute and not a buffoon, and educated, and they share interests, and oh yeah, wealthy as hell.)

Marian may not have known that she "liked" Larry, but I think the signs were there. She lights up anytime she sees him - so much so that even when she saw him at the tennis match and approached him just to say hello Mrs. Blaine went on immediate alert. 

On 12/19/2023 at 2:07 PM, RachelKM said:

And when he suddenly looked at her with his "I think I'm going kiss you face," she looked surprised and happy about it as if she had not really considered this as a possibility but she liked it. 

I agree that her face certainly indicated that she wasn't averse to the kiss and I really liked the little "oh" she gave when the kiss ended. It was an "oh, you've made me realize something" kind of oh.

I know they're endgame couple but haven't been particularly interested in any rush to get them there. Now I'm a little more invested - though I still would like it to be a slower burn.

Gladys is interesting to me. So far she has shown that she's still trying to figure out what she wants. She was seriously considering Oscar simply to be out from under her mother's thumb, even though she had no feelings for him other than mild friendship. And she likes Billy because he's fun to talk to.  All pretty normal for a teenage girl, no doubt. But also just going with the flow at this point.

I certainly don't want her forced into a marriage she doesn't want, but I won't mind the storyline if it allows for her to grow a bit and start to figure out her own direction in life.

 

 

 

[Roseanna]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:22 AM, jenn31 said:

Good for Peggy. You see, homewreckers? That’s the way you do it. Eliminate the temptation by removing yourself from the equation. 😛

 

On 12/29/2023 at 5:57 AM, Sailorgirl26 said:

WHY is the woman once again being blamed and labeled a homewrecker when it is the man who is in the wrong? Can we PLEASE put that misogynistic term that absolves men of any responsibility for their actions once and for all.

Why is the responsibility Peggy's to "do the right thing" by quitting a job she loves instead of the married man who has the responsibility to be faithful to his spouse? 

Yes that was the norm in the era this show is set but we are fortunately not in those times.

 

23 hours ago, jenn31 said:

I never said the woman is the homewrecker. That’s your own assumption. The man is just as much of a homewrecker, and should have stayed away. I’m only applauding Peggy because she happened to be the one who walked away here. My point is that if the temptation is too strong for you to resist, then stay away. Many have, both men and women. 

 

19 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

Fair point but the implication was there by pointing out that "homewreckers" should do the "right thing" by "removing themselves from the situation." As Peggy was the one who quit her job, thus removing herself from the situation, my inference is valid.  The point remains that Peggy is not a homewrecker at all and saying the man is "just as much" still places blame on the woman--that there is equal and shared blame when there wasn't. 

But fortunately, we live in different times where we can speak out about these categorizations and assign responsibility where it belongs instead of automatically ascribing it to one party, historically the female.

Hooray progress!! 😎😎

The circumstances are completely different today. First, divorce is possible and women can earn their living. Second, when a  marriage fails, an outsider can't possibly know if the affair had been the cause or consequence.

In Peggy's case, she decided to quit her job after meeting Mrs Fortune. Formerly Pegy had known that Mr Fortune was married and that they had lost a baby, but she could ignore that. Meeting Mrs Fortune made her a real person in Peggy's mind and she didn't want to hurt her. 

She could also have made the same decision to quit her job because of herself, because nothing good could follow if she had had an affair with Mr Fortune. Mrs Fortune wouldn't have divorced her adulterous husband because she had no  job.   

Mr Fortune acted wrongly both towards his wife and Peggy. Mrs Fortune was probably severely depressed losing her baby, so she wasn't good company to her husband after hard day's work. Still, he should have comforted and supported her, not to try to leave his sorrow behind in Peggy's company. 

Of course it was unfair that his conduct forced Peggy to quit her job, but even if he had wanted to do it himself (and he didn't), it wasn't an option because he was the editor. 

As Peggy has planned a novel, her decision can be lucky in the long run.   

 

     

 

 

 

[Shermie]

On 12/27/2023 at 7:45 PM, mojito said:

This show provides a good look at just how fleeting power, acquisitions, fortunes,  relationships, etc., are. The elite of the Gilded Age, if able to look back at their lives over 140 years ago, would probably shake their heads at just how small and petty their lives were, as I do watching this show.

I agree that many of the gilded were petty and shallow, but I doubt that they’d look back with self-realization. I mean, there are many just like them today, shallow and self-absorbed and obsessed with acquisition, who also lack self-awareness. People don’t really change, only eras do.

As for the show, I’m looking forward to a more confident Ada being the lady of the house while Agnes has to acquiesce to her. Christine Baranski’s biggest talent (and there are many) is making us like an unlikable character.

[magdalene]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:32 AM, chaifan said:

I'm not fond of Louisa Jacobson as an actor, but I will give her credit for this.  Her various eye-rolls and facial expressions are very well done.  Most are in response to lines from Agn

To me she has a perfect face for the time period. To me often in historical productions - not this one - a character will look way too "modern".  She carries off the hair style and costumes perfectly.

[shang yiet]

I understand why Ada would enjoy being the lady of the house after so many years of being dominated by her domineering sister.

On the other hand, she needn't lord it over her sister as she must know that Agnes sacrificed her happiness to marry a cruel man to save the family financially. So she is in debt to Agnes.

I just wish the writing was better. Julian Fellowes is not at all subtle, every point he makes is underlined twice.

I remain bored by Peggy's story. It feels like a dull history lesson. Also is it realistic that the only racist out of all the people she meets in NY is Armstrong? Also not very discreet to be arranging a meeting at a public park with a married man.

Now about the downstairs folk, I'm still not that interested in their personal issues. I feel they are most useful (storytelling-wise, exposition-wise) when they are commenting on the upstairs folk to give us another POV of the upstairs people.

Now Marian is too modern for me. Any 1880s lady with no personal fortune of her own and with her aunt financially ruined would not so quickly break off her engagement like that, even if she really didn't love him.

[MJ Frog]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:39 AM, NeenerNeener said:

I like the kid that plays Frances, but I've seen her in other things before so she doesn't creep me out. Most notably, Station Eleven and both seasons of The Santa Clauses.

Yeah, she doesn't creep me out either -- she just seems like a basically sweet kid who has become very attached to a new mother figure. I had forgotten she was in Station Eleven!

I think a lot of people on this board might enjoy The Age of Innocence (both the movie and the book written by Edith Wharton), which takes place in New York high society at about exactly the same time as The Gilded Age. The movie has an outstanding cast (which includes Reverend Dead Poet himself, Robert Sean Leonard in a small role) and is really beautifully done. Highly recommended.

[MJ Frog]

On 12/18/2023 at 8:28 PM, iMonrey said:

I thought that was weird too. They didn't have two meals, Marian pointed out that the dinner could be considered breakfast since it was by then morning. How late did they get back from the opera and how long did dinner last? The sun was up! I think this was just more lazy writing because Fellowes wanted to time it so Marian could arrive just in the nick of time to hear Ada's big announcement, which wouldn't have taken place at 2:00 in the morning.

I am not the expert on this, but I believe partying that late was not uncommon back then. I think it was fairly routine at these big affairs to wrap things up around dawn or a little later. Which seems crazy, looking back on it. But you'll notice going back even further, in some Austen stories, they have people coming home from big society parties around daybreak.

ETA: this was already answered a couple of times by other posters who did a better job of it.

Edited December 31, 2023 by MJ Frog

[jenn31]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:19 AM, Sailorgirl26 said:

Fair point but the implication was there by pointing out that "homewreckers" should do the "right thing" by "removing themselves from the situation." As Peggy was the one who quit her job, thus removing herself from the situation, my inference is valid.  The point remains that Peggy is not a homewrecker at all and saying the man is "just as much" still places blame on the woman--that there is equal and shared blame when there wasn't. 

But fortunately, we live in different times where we can speak out about these categorizations and assign responsibility where it belongs instead of automatically ascribing it to one party, historically the female.

Hooray progress!! 😎😎

There was no implication on my part. I don’t see why you think it places blame on the woman. I would have said the same of Thomas Fortune if he had been the one to leave. If I had said the exact same thing, except “good for Thomas” would you have thought that it placed the blame on him? 

 

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, shang yiet said:

On the other hand, she needn't lord it over her sister as she must know that Agnes sacrificed her happiness to marry a cruel man to save the family financially. So she is in debt to Agnes.

How has Agnes sacrificed her happiness? I don't recall she had a suitor she loved but who she refused because he was too poor. She married a rich man chiefly for herself, not because of her sister.

During two seasons Agnes has treated Ada very poorly, belittling her and making fun of her. Instead, Ada has never answered in kind to Agnes. She has even defended her sister to Marian by explaining her sister's behavior with her hard marriage.

As a big sister Agnes sees herself still superior, but she never learned about Marian's elopment plan, unlike Ada. 

 

[Affogato]

I think Agnes feels she has earned, hard earned, everything she has or had in terms of peace and comfort. I think she thinks of Ada not as inferior, but sheltered. 

[Roseanna]

On 12/19/2023 at 3:28 AM, iMonrey said:

The only part of the episode I really appreciated was Agnes reading the riot act to Oscar for not even putting as much effort into checking out this investment as a housewife buying a loaf of bread. 

I thought that was weird too. They didn't have two meals, Marian pointed out that the dinner could be considered breakfast since it was by then morning. How late did they get back from the opera and how long did dinner last? The sun was up! I think this was just more lazy writing because Fellowes wanted to time it so Marian could arrive just in the nick of time to hear Ada's big announcement, which wouldn't have taken place at 2:00 in the morning.

 

On 12/19/2023 at 3:37 AM, kay1864 said:

But didn’t Agnes say they had stayed up all night waiting for Marian, so Ada could finally announce? Seems like they could just as easily have stayed up until 2 instead of 6 or 7.

And again, same time conundrum… did Agnes and Ada really wait in that sitting room for 7 or 8 hours, after coming home from the Academy?

 

5 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

I am not the expert on this, but I believe partying that late was not uncommon back then. I think it was fairly routine at these big affairs to wrap things up around dawn or a little later. Which seems crazy, looking back on it. But you'll notice going back even further, in some Austen stories, they have people coming home from big society parties around daybreak.

It was lazy writing.

While Russell party could last until daybreak, they either had a supper that lasted for several hours or, unlike Marian said, two meals. 

And Agnes and Ada wouldn't certainly wait for Marian longer than perhaps until 2 or 3. New York doesn't lay so in the north that there would have been light in the night.  

[Baltimore Betty]

19 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Also is it realistic that the only racist out of all the people she meets in NY is Armstrong?

It wasn't, remember when she was out with Marian who wanted to shop in Bloomingdale's and Peggy didn't want to come in with her but did and the salesperson's glare at her as to say "What are you doing in this store."

But you are right, it is not glaringly obvious outside of Armstrong's treatment of Peggy.

[Sailorgirl26]

6 hours ago, jenn31 said:

There was no implication on my part. I don’t see why you think it places blame on the woman. I would have said the same of Thomas Fortune if he had been the one to leave. If I had said the exact same thing, except “good for Thomas” would you have thought that it placed the blame on him? 

 

My interpretation of what was written is just that. MY interpretation. I'm not arguing semantics. 

The blame for any potential homewrecking in the scenario shown lies with Thomas. And only Thomas. Full stop. 

[magdalene]

I don't know whether I would consider most of these main characters rotten to the core.  Flawed yes, and spoiled definitely. Bertha is about par for the course for a ruthlessly ambitious newly rich social climber but certainly not evil.  And George is almost a paragon in comparison to what most of the real life Gilded Age robber barons got up to. Even hoity-toity stuck up Agnes is almost a model of enlightenment  in her treatment of Peggy for the time.

I don't like Oscar because he turned out to be such a pathetic dumb-ass. And I can't stand that ex-servant who brazenly tried to seduce George while in service with his family - she ain't all that and such a sourpuss on top of it.

[ofmd]

7 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

It wasn't, remember when she was out with Marian who wanted to shop in Bloomingdale's and Peggy didn't want to come in with her but did and the salesperson's glare at her as to say "What are you doing in this store."

But you are right, it is not glaringly obvious outside of Armstrong's treatment of Peggy.

Yes, but in typical Fellowes fashion, all the regular characters (except for some of the evil ones) are not racist. Quite unrealistic.

Edited January 1 by ofmd

[AntFTW]

13 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

It wasn't, remember when she was out with Marian who wanted to shop in Bloomingdale's and Peggy didn't want to come in with her but did and the salesperson's glare at her as to say "What are you doing in this store."

But you are right, it is not glaringly obvious outside of Armstrong's treatment of Peggy.

Along with Bloomingdale's, there are also the cab drivers that refused service to Peggy. Additionally, Aurora Fane and Anne Morris were giving their looks when they were meeting with Clara Barton in the first season as if to say "it's you" to Peggy.

But yes, it's more coded and less obvious unlike the white Southerners we saw in Alabama.

Edited January 1 by AntFTW

[goldilocks]

12 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

The blame for any potential homewrecking in the scenario shown lies with Thomas. And only Thomas. Full stop. 

I’m not sure I can agree with this. Disregarding the debate about the homewrecker blame over the decades, didn’t Peggy kiss Fortune and was basically heading for an affair, even when she knew he was married?  Only when she actually saw the wife with the baby did Peggy feel any guilt. Sorry, but in my books, that is a homewrecker, despite whether Furtune had blame or not (they both had, in this case as I see it). You can’t absolve the woman just because history has usually blamed the woman and you don’t like that. In this case it is Peggy’s fault too. Although at least she left before it went any further. But what would have happened if she hadn’t seen Mrs. Fortune with the child? Seems to me she would have then had the affair. 

[ofmd]

In my book, it is the person in the relationship who has the responsibility of being faithful, not the other person. Do I think it's great to start something with a married or otherwise-in-a-relationship  person? Of course not. (And I hope I never would.)

But again, it's not her problem. The myth that the free person, usually the woman, is to blame and wrecking the home of an otherwise perfect family is very persistent. Numerous movies where the affair is depicted as the evil woman seducing the man with her wiley womanly ways, and the man is unable to resist because man, and then when she is discarded, sometimes she literalyl goes psycho and wrecks the home, kills the family pets etc pp.

And I noticed that in real life, when women discover their spouse has an affair, they usually blame the other woman. Still.

Anyway, back to Peggy and her boss. Imho, it was usually he who initiated the improper behavior, beginning with opening his door to her half-naked (for the era). But even disregarding all of this... As her boss, it is again his responsibility to avoid anything happening. Imagine if Peggy's parents were not wealthy, and she really needed that job! Even being well off, she still loved her work and feels she can't continue without compromising herself.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, goldilocks said:

I’m not sure I can agree with this. Disregarding the debate about the homewrecker blame over the decades, didn’t Peggy kiss Fortune and was basically heading for an affair, even when she knew he was married?  Only when she actually saw the wife with the baby did Peggy feel any guilt. Sorry, but in my books, that is a homewrecker, despite whether Furtune had blame or not (they both had, in this case as I see it). You can’t absolve the woman just because history has usually blamed the woman and you don’t like that. In this case it is Peggy’s fault too. Although at least she left before it went any further. But what would have happened if she hadn’t seen Mrs. Fortune with the child? Seems to me she would have then had the affair. 

 

3 hours ago, ofmd said:

In my book, it is the person in the relationship who has the responsibility of being faithful, not the other person. Do I think it's great to start something with a married or otherwise-in-a-relationship  person? Of course not. (And I hope I never would.)

But again, it's not her problem. The myth that the free person, usually the woman, is to blame and wrecking the home of an otherwise perfect family is very persistent. Numerous movies where the affair is depicted as the evil woman seducing the man with her wiley womanly ways, and the man is unable to resist because man, and then when she is discarded, sometimes she literalyl goes psycho and wrecks the home, kills the family pets etc pp.

And I noticed that in real life, when women discover their spouse has an affair, they usually blame the other woman. Still.

Anyway, back to Peggy and her boss. Imho, it was usually he who initiated the improper behavior, beginning with opening his door to her half-naked (for the era). But even disregarding all of this... As her boss, it is again his responsibility to avoid anything happening. Imagine if Peggy's parents were not wealthy, and she really needed that job! Even being well off, she still loved her work and feels she can't continue without compromising herself.

There is much truth IMO in the saying that if the marriage is sound and strong, an outsider can't wreck it. On the other hand, then guilt is put on the spouse's door who has been cheated on. This may be in some cases appropriate. But there are also some people who are unable to be faithful because of their own problems. 

I don't think it's fair to say Peggy consciously aimed to have an affair with Mr Fortune. Rather, she would say to herself that nothing more would happen and they could meet in the work and she would bask in his admiration. I can't imagine  Peggy would go to a hotel room with him. Yet, there was a possibility (f,g. alone in the office) and the one who would be hurt most would be Peggy.   

Whatever hurt feelings her husband's cheating could have caused to Mrs Fortune if she ever learned of it, her marriage and her home were safe. He would never leave her for another woman as it would have ruined his reputation as an editor.

Sometimes love can be so strong that it matters more than all else, as in the case of Sylvia Chamberlain (S1). Luckily his lover and future husband was rich enough to support two families but she had still to pay the price by being ostrakized by the society.     

[Roseanna]

On 12/24/2023 at 7:19 AM, Sarah 103 said:

This is one of the reasons why I think having a long courtship and marriage would be absolutely fantastic. Snark to snark combat from Agnes and Bertha at family events/major holidays would be fantastic. Not to mention all of the drama about who gets to host what, which is where this show thrives.

That relatives don't like each other isn't enough for drama. 

A love story needs psychological obstacles and there isn't a single one.  

[peeayebee]

Both are to blame, but at least Peggy put an end to it.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 12/18/2023 at 3:01 PM, iMonrey said:

But I don't suppose Fellowes has much use for the servants since they cannot make a grand entrance down the staircase in a fabulous new gown while the music swells all around them. And that seems to be the primary purpose of the show.

To be honest, I don't have much use for anybody who cannot make a grand entrance down the staircase in a fabulous new gown while the music swells all around them.  I'm in this for the clothes only.  I'm okay with servants and men being around but only in service of the women and their clothes and their competitiveness. 

On 12/18/2023 at 7:23 PM, kay1864 said:

- Everyone at the opera was talking far too loudly once the performance began. You don’t speak in a normal conversational tone once it’s started.

In the boxes, though?  I'm all for 100% quiet at any performance, but those boxes aren't like orchestra seats, with strangers crammed all around each other.

On 12/18/2023 at 9:39 PM, chaifan said:

This isn't the first time they have shown parties breaking up after the sun has risen.

Did it rise in the west then, too?  It sure looked like it was coming up over Central Park.

[Tango64]

19 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Did it rise in the west then, too?  It sure looked like it was coming up over Central Park.

That's what Bertha wanted.

[Roseanna]

22 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Did it rise in the west then, too?  It sure looked like it was coming up over Central Park.

 

2 hours ago, Tango64 said:

That's what Bertha wanted.

Excuse me, do you mean that Bertha is gooddess as she can order the sun to rise in the west, whereas to us poor mortals it rises in the east?

The new Metropolitan Opera House seems to have opened on October 22, 1883. Do anybody know when exactly the sun rose?

 

[StatisticalOutlier]

15 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Excuse me, do you mean that Bertha is gooddess as she can order the sun to rise in the west, whereas to us poor mortals it rises in the east?

Good point.  Maybe it was over Central Park only on East 61st Street, and normal in the rest of the city.  Subtle, but pointed.

[Roseanna]

On 1/1/2024 at 5:34 PM, peeayebee said:

Both are to blame, but at least Peggy put an end to it.

Mr Fortune showed himself skirtless and made an initiative to the kiss although it seemed to be consensual. Just after situation where they had just avoided risk of assault, torture, rape and death, touching another person was a natural reaction, although a kiss is of course different than a hug. If Mr Fortune hadn't earlier offered a stong drink to Peggy and didn't later apologize of his behavior, I would say much ado about a trivial thing.   

Generally speaking, when a woman was kissed by a man she liked but she wasn't interested in, she was in a difficult situation: how to fend off a man without hurting his feelings.  

[RedHawk]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:13 PM, ahpny said:

John is a likeable character for whom it's easy to root, but the patent nonsense continues to irk. Patent applications are not “accepted;” the primary components of an application are “allowed” or “rejected.” If rejected, those components (called “claims”) can be modified to some degree and sent back to the patent office for another try with argument about why they should be allowed. There’s no indication that that happened here. Moreover, none of this happens quickly, as in the presumed time frame presented here. Also, the issuance of a patent is not, as presented here, not like a large money lottery ticket win. The vast majority of issued patents, i.e., those patent applications allowed by the Patent Office, never make a dime for anyone (other than the patent lawyers and the Patent Office of course). Only some patents make vast fortunes, but those are the ones most well-known. It is nevertheless correct – then and now – that inventors often need savvy business types to monetize their patents, and young Mr. Russell seems like a stand up guy unlikely “steal” the clock invention in a presumed season 3.

And a reliable alarm clock could easily be one of the patents that make a fortune. My friend's grandfather patented a device (I think in the early 1940s) and it made him a multi-millionaire.

[RedHawk]

On 12/31/2023 at 3:45 AM, MJ Frog said:

[snip]I think a lot of people on this board might enjoy The Age of Innocence (both the movie and the book written by Edith Wharton), which takes place in New York high society at about exactly the same time as The Gilded Age. The movie has an outstanding cast (which includes Reverend Dead Poet himself, Robert Sean Leonard in a small role) and is really beautifully done. Highly recommended.

I was also going to recommend Wharton's book or the film for those who want to understand more of "the times" when this is set and how people in high society behaved. For example, how they attend the theater to enjoy the music or the play, but more importantly to some is to see and be seen, and to give or attend a big party afterward. IIRC in an early scene the society hostess who is throwing a big party after a performance is seen leaving the theater early, as she always does, to attend to the final details of her event and be prepared to welcome her guests. In reality, Bertha would probably have left the opera performance early.

Some society people still do this, by the way. Yes, the attend the opera, ballet, symphony to enjoy the performances to whatever level of their interest -- some much more than others -- but many attend so they can dress up and be part of the social scene. Subscribing to a specific box on a specific night every season is still done, and people visit other boxes, etc. during intermission.

Edited January 21 by RedHawk
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