S02.E08: In Terms of Winning and Losing

[chaifan]

Regarding Peggy, having her sit around for Season 3 writing her novel would be an incredibly boring plot line.  Two possible scenarios I'd like for Peggy for Season 3:

1.  Ada will need a secretary to deal with everything, and Peggy is a full time employee of the VR household, working with both Ada and Agnes.

2. Ada invests in a new School for the Colored and Irish, and Peggy is the Headmistress.  While we're going with this, Larry will be the architect, it will be the grandest thing NYC has seen, the white-non-Irish families will be put to shame and start sending their children there, and we see NYC schools fully integrated by 1885.  Oh, wait.  Did I overstep there? 

 

[Affogato]

This was certainly written as a Series finale, whether it is the series finale or it is simply the end of the second season. We know the valet will become a gentleman again and get to know his daughter. We know that Jack Trotter is moving up the ladder, into the world of business, and that he has a backer. We know that Marian will not be in a loveless marriage of convenience and we know that Gladys is reliving the history of Consuelo. Agnes and Ada are taken care of, as are their servants. And so it goes. We can project what will happen with most storylines (a reason for them being such predictable tropes, I think), so we don't need the third season to know what will happen to these people. If there is a third season, I'm sure Bertha and George will have issues, since George already suspects Bertha sold Gladys for her opening night victory. I'm sure the romance between Larry and Marian will proceed apace, with Larry being a modern man, who respects her work.  And so on.

It is interesting that apparently a lot of Netflix's most watched shows were not the ones that get a lot of attention on the internet, and Warner Brothers has already dumped a number of successful, really good properties. So I don't think that means they will renew it. I think it may be time to sign those petitions, when we find them.

[Baltimore Betty]

10 minutes ago, ofmd said:

Other than the pacing, I'm fine with those two sweet, pretty, bland kids getting together. And I assume Larry will make his own fortune now with the clock stuff, so he'll be independent.

I was against the pairing at first because they were so bland and uninteresting but I have realized that Larry is not afraid to work with someone like Jack and treat him as an equal and with the hopes of success for both just as Marian enjoys her work at the school, Larry would not expect her to stop something she enjoys...that to me is a much better pairing than Cousin Dashiell and just wanting a mother for his child.

Nobody was surprised at JF's writing Luke's will was full of money for Ada, nobody.

Agnes will have to take the "Lady of the Manor" attitude down a bit, that will be a fun thing to watch. Ada is nice enough to let Agnes have a little head of household responsibilities if only for the fact of the grace she has shown Ada for the past four plus decades and Agnes' standing in society.

I am surprised the JF shied away from the Met opening riot.

Peggy will do just fine no matter what she does professionally, I did think it was unfair of Fortune to not mention anything about his home life such as having a new baby, Peggy would have cut him off at the knees for trying any hanky-panky with her, Fortune was selfish in that instance and now Peggy knows better...I would totally read a book she authored.

Bertha reigns supreme at the Met but sadly Gladys has entered the human trafficking stage of her life, Mom gussied her up to put her on display for the Duke and the Duke wants to fund his life back home so I guess it is a match made in an opera box.  I did like Gladys telling the Duke the plot line of Faust, so telling.

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

so we don't need the third season

WHAT??!! Um, the costumes and sets are amazing to watch, can we just have a series with costumes and sets, no dialogue needed!

[Affogato]

I was puzzled by Gladys's lavender dress, because I thought Lavender was one of the colors of mourning and would be considered suitable for persons of the age of Ada and Agnes, but not possibly suitable for a young girl like Gladys, just starting out. Maybe deliberate, since Bertha chose the dress and she is sending Gladys into a loveless marriage? All of their dresses must have been chosen earlier though, months earlier? because it takes a long time to make them.

I did covet Bertha's cape. I like Marians workday dresses/suits more than I like her dress offerings.

I would normally not mention Frances, since she was a placeholder, but really she is stiff in her presentation, but I don't find her creepy. She looks a lot like Louise Jacobson, and that would indicate that Marion may also have looked like Harriet (Dashiell is dark), which may show some of the attraction at his end.

I also thought Marian and Larry were not developed enough in the story, which shows me that Fellowes did want to bring his storylines to a conclusion at the end of this season. I also thought the valet and his daughter storyline was interesting, and that there might be more to be said about that, too. I'm more invested than most people, I know. But a lot of stories didn't actually ripen before they were plucked.

I think perhaps Luke suspected he was ill before the marriage, since he hurried it, and he had a conversation with Ada about it not being too late to travel and do the many things she wants to do. My headcannon certainly has her traveling in Europe and generally using Luke's surprise gift to see the world. I do think it would be like her to give Oscar another chance, but I'd prefer that he goes to find the people who scammed him and has some success as a detective, or something. I'm sure there is a story there, but the banker who everyone knows was scammed for all of his familiy's fortune and who still lives with his mother isn't a happy ending for Oscar.

Ah, Peggy. I wish that she had told her boss directly that they were not getting together and managed to keep the job. There is an unpleasant implication that, while he is a scoundrel (of course) she is unable to control herself around the temptation he presents, and I find that distasteful.

[Affogato]

45 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Regarding Peggy, having her sit around for Season 3 writing her novel would be an incredibly boring plot line.  Two possible scenarios I'd like for Peggy for Season 3:

1.  Ada will need a secretary to deal with everything, and Peggy is a full time employee of the VR household, working with both Ada and Agnes.

2. Ada invests in a new School for the Colored and Irish, and Peggy is the Headmistress.  While we're going with this, Larry will be the architect, it will be the grandest thing NYC has seen, the white-non-Irish families will be put to shame and start sending their children there, and we see NYC schools fully integrated by 1885.  Oh, wait.  Did I overstep there? 

 

I'm guessing that Peggy will find something freelance to write about and will have a story to take to her old editor, or a new one, while she continues her secretarial duties and writes her book.

27 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

 

 

WHAT??!! Um, the costumes and sets are amazing to watch, can we just have a series with costumes and sets, no dialogue needed!

No, the show can go on forever and would be just as watchable as ever. Of course.

[taanja]

11 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

What a happy ending to season two! I’m glad Marian came to her senses and I’m still shipping her and Larry. Gladys is too feisty to put up with Bertha and her match making, her and the Duke won’t happen.

Kudos to whoever called Luke having money put aside for Ada and the day is saved. I love that Ada is now richer than Agnes. 
I’m glad Opera wars is over. That was the most boring part of this season. 
I want to see Jack become rich.  Bring on season three! 

 

Hm? To me Gladys comes across as milquetoast. Bertha (Mother!) say jump and Gladys says -- how high? To be honest Gladys is one of my least favorite characters. She is just there. And that purple/lavender dress was atrocious!

Otherwise - I loved loved most of the dresses/costumes at the opera! Even the one Turner wore with the roses or whatever sewn into the bodice was attractive. Or the color was becoming on her. And the actress has a pretty face.

Oh my! A Jane Austin ending! happily ever after for the 3 ladies who went from "destitute" to WE HAVE A FORTUNE! I can already see the dynamics changing in that household. For sure!

I actually felt sorry for Oscar (I Know! - right!) but the way Agnes was berating him was not just harsh -- it was degrading and petty and mean. I was like whoa babe! you're gonna drive him to suicide!

[NeenerNeener]

I could see a third season revolving around Marion and Larry's marriage. Agnes being against it because he's new money; Bertha being for it because Marion is old money-adjacent.

Poor Frances. At 11 years old she's heading for puberty at 90 miles an hour with no mother to clue her in about what's to come since Marion bailed out on the marriage. But I doubt we'll see her again if there is a season 3, so que sera, sera.

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by NeenerNeener

[chaifan]

32 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I did covet Bertha's cape. I like Marians workday dresses/suits more than I like her dress offerings.

Completely agree with both of these statements.  Also, I prefer Marian's "everyday" hats to just about everyone else's (Bertha, being the exception). 

I have a question about Mrs. Bruce's dress, but I'm going to take that to the "Mrs. Astor approves thread. 

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, taanja said:

I actually felt sorry for Oscar (I Know! - right!) but the way Agnes was berating him was not just harsh -- it was degrading and petty and mean. I was like whoa babe! you're gonna drive him to suicide!

To be fair, Agnes saw history repeating itself. Her brother squandered the family fortune, leaving her and Ada destitute and all but forcing Agnes into a terrible marriage. The one good thing that came out of her marriage was enough money to allow her and her sister to live in quiet lavish style for the rest of their lives and her idiot of a son pissed it all away. I don't blame her for going nuclear on his ass. I'm sure that Oscar was beating himself enough, but he destroyed everything that Agnes sacrificed to build. 

 

1 hour ago, taanja said:

To me Gladys comes across as milquetoast. Bertha (Mother!) say jump and Gladys says -- how high? To be honest Gladys is one of my least favorite characters. She is just there. And that purple/lavender dress was atrocious!

Gladys might be "out" and an adult in society, but Bertha keeps her on a very tight leash. She can't go out to social events without her mother's permission and Bertha has made it clear that she is focused on gaining an advantageous marriage for Gladys. The mistake that Bertha is making is that she thinks that Gladys will want the same thing that she does in the end (social advancement), while Gladys just isn't that mercenary. Which means that Gladys is going to be in for a miserable time if they are going to follow Consuelo Vanderbilt's life for the story. 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Hana Chan

[iMonrey]

5 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

(BTW - did Marion's met dress sleeves do a weird blurry thing on y'alls screens, too?  I swear her sleeves looked super blurry - I think my hi def was trying to vomit it back up.)

There is some really weird camera work on this show, they use some kind of wide angle lens that makes the image blurry around the edges. I pointed this out several episodes ago.

So which is more absurd and laughably convenient? Cousin Matthew inheriting a fortune from his dead ex-fiance's father, or Ada inheriting a fortune from her dead Reverend husband? I suppose the former still takes the cake, but it's still a stretch that Reverend Forte inherited some textile business from his grandfather which he didn't want anything to do with because of his devotion to God - but kept it anyway? I mean, if he didn't want the money then why not sell his interest and donate the money to the church? Isn't that what any good minister would do?

Also, why didn't the Reverend tell Ada about this secret fortune of his? Not even on his deathbed? "Oh, by the way dear, I never told you this but I have a secret fortune you are about to inherit. Good luck with that!" 

Speaking of dumb, we can put to rest the speculation that maybe Oscar's father had left him in control of the family fortune which is how he was able to give it all away. Nope! Agnes put him in charge of her interests, per this episode. Which just makes this lame plot even stupider and makes her complicit in it.

Marian has too much of a modern day sensibility in breaking off her engagement simply because she doesn't love Dashiell "like a wife should love a husband." The woman just found out she's destitute, it's not like she has a lot of options. It would have made more sense if she'd broken off the engagement after finding out Ada was rich but I suppose that would have made her seem a bit too Machiavellian. 

Same with Peggy quitting her job at the paper after finding out she was also losing her job with Agnes. At least get another job first lady, jeez.

Speaking of Ada and her newfound richness, Bannister turning to her and asking her to rubber stamp Agnes's orders should have cost him his job. He's been around long enough to know that Agnes rules with an iron fist and Ada is a pushover. His assumption that he would be taking orders from Ada now was presumptuous and out of line.

Honestly, if they put even half the effort into the writing that they put into costumes and grand entrances, the show wouldn't require enough hand-waving to give you carpal tunnel in order to make sense of it.

[tennisgurl]

I really need a Mrs. Fish recap before everything episode as she delightfully spills the tea telling us everything that's going on. I just desperately want to get mimosas with her and hear about all the divorces. 

[AntFTW]

Just now, tennisgurl said:

I really need a Mrs. Fish recap before everything episode as she delightfully spills the tea telling us everything that's going on. I just desperately want to get mimosas with her and hear about all the divorces. 

Same!

[Baltimore Betty]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

blurry around the edges

I thought maybe I was having a bout of glaucoma during Peggy and Fortune's park bench scene! Why is the blurry thing a thing?

Before the news of Ada's new found inheritance was disclosed Agnes worried about where she would have to live once they sold the house, she said she would have to live where the Jews lived oy vey but on the other hand said something about her maid and Peggy's relationship, the maid had put her prejudices a head of getting to know Peggy, pot calling the kettle black if you ask me.

Ada and all rejoice because she has been left a fortune, their lives won't change and all is well with the world but Agnes never said how much her jackpot actually was, JF is short on details on this show for sure.

Oscar's story should include hiring a PI to track down Maud and her accomplice.

 

 

[Affogato]

24 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I thought maybe I was having a bout of glaucoma during Peggy and Fortune's park bench scene! Why is the blurry thing a thing?

Before the news of Ada's new found inheritance was disclosed Agnes worried about where she would have to live once they sold the house, she said she would have to live where the Jews lived oy vey but on the other hand said something about her maid and Peggy's relationship, the maid had put her prejudices a head of getting to know Peggy, pot calling the kettle black if you ask me.

Ada and all rejoice because she has been left a fortune, their lives won't change and all is well with the world but Agnes never said how much her jackpot actually was, JF is short on details on this show for sure.

Oscar's story should include hiring a PI to track down Maud and her accomplice.

 

 

In fairness she identified the area, it is probably how everyone thinks of it, just as Peggy's family probably lives in a 'negro area'. Agnes probably would be kind to a Jewish person she employed, or one she was involved with in a charity drive.

A lot of her concern is that she will lose her friends and generally, her life. Will Mrs Astor invite her to her box, or anywhere, next year? Will people visit her farther downtown?

I assume Ada, who is not actually a fool, knows how much the household costs to run, how much the allowances and wages are per month or year. She is observant, even when she is quiet.

[chaifan]

54 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Agnes never said how much her jackpot actually was, JF is short on details on this show for sure.

😆 That's the understatement of the year!

Agnes to Oscar: How much did you lose?

Oscar:  Almost all of it.

***

Agnes to Ada:  So what are you saying?  That you've come into money?

Ada:  Yes.  A great deal of money.  Too much money, really.

I suppose it's gauche to mention how much money someone is worth, even when it's a fictional tv character.

On a separate note, while rewatching that scene, I noticed Bannister addresses Ada as "Miss Ada".  Wouldn't he be addressing her as "Mrs. Forte" at this point?  Or is he allowed the familiarity because of his history with the VR's?  Even Agnes referred to her as "Mrs. Forte" in that conversation. 

Edited to add... the look on Ada's face right at the end was fabulous.  You could just see her brain working away at how her life would change.  Great acting by CN in that scene.

Edited December 18, 2023 by chaifan

[Juneau Gal]

10 hours ago, operakatz said:

The actress playing the creepy daughter reminds me SO much of Olivia Barash (who played Sylvia in that infamous Little House on the Prairie clown rape episode)

She really really did. Just a few days ago I went down the internet rabbit hole on that Little House episode, having never seen it, thanks to a random post on Facebook. To then see Francis look so much like the other actress was.........kinda spooky.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, ofmd said:

For all the accuracy and care they put into the historical costumes, I wish they'd be equally as careful with the way people speak. "It's time I took control of my life" strikes me as anachronistic, one of many instances with this show. And also the way they would conduct themselves. Kissing at the front door with everyone to see? (Larry did that with his first lover, too.) Heck, I'm not even sure their innocent, frequent one-on-one meetings in the street wouldn't have gotten the rumor mill going.

I thought that, too. I am sure young people kissed also at that time, but not in the place they could be seen.

And it was rather odd that after Marian said "we will be friends forever", Larry reacted by kissing her. Wouldn't it be awkward to meet again?

[gwen747]

Ada for the win! And I'm happy to see Marian and Larry finally get together. 

As another poster pointed out, I hope George keeps his promise to Gladys and stand up for her to Bertha.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Why does everybody assume that Ada will live with Agnes and Marian? She has her own house now, and her own household help what will happen to them? 

Ada, liked most people at that time, isn't used to live alone. She would crave company at meals and in the evenings.  

[Roseanna]

49 minutes ago, chaifan said:

 

On a separate note, while rewatching that scene, I noticed Bannister addresses Ada as "Miss Ada".  Wouldn't he be addressing her as "Mrs. Forte" at this point?  Or is he allowed the familiarity because of his history with the VR's?  Even Agnes referred to her as "Mrs. Forte" in that conversation. 

In Gone With the Wind Mammy called Scarlett always Miss Scarlett akthough she was married thrice.

[tennisgurl]

This episode went in pretty much the exact way that I think most of us expected, you could almost here check marks being marked off a list. Marian breaks up with Dashel? Luke was secretly wealthy which saves the family from ruin? Bertha sells Gladys to the Duke and gets her big victory? Marian and Larry get together? I am at least relived that they didn't go there with Peggy and Mr. Fortune, I was so worried that they would start an affair and we would be subjected to that all season, but I guess seeing his wife finally got Peggy to realize what she was doing. Overall, even if it was a very practicable season, I still enjoyed it a lot and I am hoping to hear about a season three soon!

I have liked the idea of Larry and Marian getting together alright, it seems pretty much inevitable, but I did really think that they were cute in this episode, their kiss really did look so full of joy. It seems like they would be a really nice match, and maybe after this financial disaster Agnes might be a bit more open to the idea of Marian marrying into a family with so much money, even if she hates Bertha and all she stands for. Really, I might just be extra rooting for them to get together so that we would get really awkward dinners between Agnes and Bertha as they try to play nice but are glaring daggers. 

I am just about as excited about Jack and Larry going into business together than Marian and Larry getting together, possibly more. Hopefully its going to be a plot that lasts for awhile and its not one of those subplots the show brings up and than abandons. 

I am glad that Peggy finally listened to her mother and put a stop to things with Mr. Fortune, but I'm sad that it means she feels like she has to leave the paper. It really sucks that she feels like she has to leave a job she loves because her married boss is into her. 

Bertha giving some tickets to her ladies maid was a nice moment, she and the head chef are really cute together. I loved her expression when she said who her date was going to be, she looked like "...ok get it girl."

Yeah Marian, this is the right time to break off an engagement that your aunt put together, she's so pissed off at Oscar you cant possibly beat him to the top of her shitlist. 

Damn, no wonder Bertha won this fight, The Met looked gorgeous. Of course we know how this is basically going to play out, but Bertha was absolutely glowing at her great victory. Unfortunately it looks like there could be trouble in paradise soon, it looks like George already suspects that Bertha gave Gladys to the Duke, its going to be very interesting to see if this creates a real issue in their otherwise happy marriage. 

Not at all surprised that it turns out that Luke was secretly rich which conveniently saves the day! Now Ada is the wealthy widow and Agnes is the one living off her good graces! If Marian marries Larry, then Ada and Marian will fully switch with Oscar and Agnes as to who is the rich relative and who's the poor relation. 

So many amazing outfits at the opera, I loved Bertha's gown and her victory cape. 

[taanja]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

 The one good thing that came out of her marriage was d. 

 Which means that Gladys is going to be in for a miserable time if they are going to follow Consuelo Vanderbilt's life for the story. 

 

I guess Oscar isn't considered a good thing to come from the marriage?

I understand where Agnes is coming from -- she values money and status ABOVE all else =-- ever her own son/flesh and blood.

 

 

I don't know who that is? Has How do we know the show is portraying that person's life?

[RachelKM]

14 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Why does everybody assume that Ada will live with Agnes and Marian? She has her own house now, and her own household help what will happen to them? I thought Marian blurting  it out that way  was kind of weird because while Ada would certainly be expected to help them. I don’t see why she would be expected to move back home.

It appears from all indications that Ada already had moved back in with Agnes.  And she wouldn't have a house in NY since she and Reverend DPS almost certainly lived in a house that was tied to his position as the rector of the parish.  

So unless she expressly wanted to buy a home, presumably in the same neighborhood since why move out of the monied area, living in the van Rhijn home, one in which she has lived for over 20 years (possibly over 30) other than a brief few weeks of her life while married, makes the most sense.  Plus the family she will certainly want to support already lives there.  So there was absolutely no reason NOT to assume they will continue to live there together as it was is already all of their home. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by RachelKM

[marybennet]

14 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Was I the only one appalled how much dirt those long long trains would be sweeping up?

People actually wrote about this in the nineteenth century (in England, anyway) as a social problem--that all kinds of dirt and trash would get caught in women's skirts and brought into the house.

[iMonrey]

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Bertha giving some tickets to her ladies maid was a nice moment, she and the head chef are really cute together. I loved her expression when she said who her date was going to be, she looked like "...ok get it girl."

The fact that nobody seems to remember these characters' names (including myself) speaks to how little investment Fellowes has put into the servants. 

Bertha gave tickets to Mrs. Bruce, the housekeeper (not the lady's maid). But I couldn't have told you the chef's name to save my life without seeing it here first.

But I don't suppose Fellowes has much use for the servants since they cannot make a grand entrance down the staircase in a fabulous new gown while the music swells all around them. And that seems to be the primary purpose of the show.

[Atlanta]

7 minutes ago, marybennet said:

People actually wrote about this in the nineteenth century (in England, anyway) as a social problem--that all kinds of dirt and trash would get caught in women's skirts and brought into the house.

I think there was an attachable under ruffle that could be easily removed and cleaned. They also wore a few layers of slips/chamise to avoid sweating on their clothes.

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

The fact that nobody seems to remember these characters' names (including myself) speaks to how little investment Fellowes has put into the servants. 

Bertha gave tickets to Mrs. Bruce, the housekeeper (not the lady's maid). But I couldn't have told you the chef's name to save my life without seeing it here first.

But I don't suppose Fellowes has much use for the servants since they cannot make a grand entrance down the staircase in a fabulous new gown while the music swells all around them. And that seems to be the primary purpose of the show.

I got confused with him... should we call him Baudin or Borden? LOL

[BeatrixK]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I really need a Mrs. Fish recap before everything episode as she delightfully spills the tea telling us everything that's going on. I just desperately want to get mimosas with her and hear about all the divorces. 

If we are lucky enough to get a season 3....they should just full throttle the camp lean in and have each previous episode recapped by Mrs. Fish sipping tea while spilling it to us!!!

 

[RachelKM]

10 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

If we are lucky enough to get a season 3....they should just full throttle the camp lean in and have each previous episode recapped by Mrs. Fish sipping tea while spilling it to us!!!

This is the Extras content we need. 

[BeatrixK]

OK saw a post earlier about what Ada would do with the money and Peggy working for them...and for the life of me can't find it again.

They got 2 out of the three they wanted open.  I totally see Ada opening the third school, Peggy Head Mistressing, and of course....the pagents would be off the chain, because we KNOW our Ada loves those pageants!

But I LOVE the idea of Ada opening a school!!!!!!!

/I mean...c'mon HBO - you renewed the hot mess that is AJLT - Please....have mercy on souls who thirst for Victorian soapy drama!  We need to be heard!

[lemoncake]

Marian, Bertha and Gladys looked like 3 flavors of sherbert, lemon, lime and raspberry. Frankly I find the Larian storyline bland. If there is a season 3 I want to see Bertha vs George vs Gladys over Bertha selling Gladys to the Duke.  The Duke is such a bore and so not for her

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but no tears for Oscar, tears for Agnes. Oscar is beside himself because Maud lied and defrauded him, which is rich coming from a guy who was planning to marry Maud (before he knew who she was)  for money and setting her up to be his beard without her knowledge. Or did I miss the part where Oscar was honest with Maud and told her he was gay and had a boyfriend? 

Edited December 18, 2023 by lemoncake

[Marley]

Yea I don’t get why anyone would feel bad for Oscar. It’s not like he had bad luck he actually just decided to invest basically all the family money into some random investment he knew nothing about. Just because he saw literally 1 good return. He’s a dumbass. He did no research at all. Didn’t ask anyone anything. And yea he was making Maud his beard. Who cares if he’s upset now. He can fuck off.

Marrying an English guy worked out for Lady Grantham so Gladys should be fine lol. What makes that other guy so much better for her anyways.

If they try messing up George and Bertha then I don’t want season 3 lol.

[Hana Chan]

3 hours ago, taanja said:

I don't know who that is? Has How do we know the show is portraying that person's life?

She was the only daughter of the Vanderbilt railroad tycoon and was forced by her mother to marry the Duke of Marlborough. She was the first of what was termed by the British as "dollar princesses" - American heiresses who married British aristocrats. Consuelo brought with her a huge dowery and was told by her husband that this was the only reason that he married her - in order to save his ancestral home. Her mother basically traded her daughter and a boatload of money for an aristocratic title, and it was not a happy marriage. 

Interestingly, she does look a bit like the actress playing Gladys...

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Marley said:

Marrying an English guy worked out for Lady Grantham so Gladys should be fine lol. What makes that other guy so much better for her anyways.

I'm not sure anyone is specifically rooting for the young man Gladys was waving at from her box.  It's that Gladys has seemed completely uninterested in the Duke irrespective of any other potential suitors. So it's more thinking it's coldblooded for Bertha to put Gladys on the bargaining table when negotiating with the Duke for his attendance at the Met opening.

Not to mention, the echoes of Consuelo Vanderbilt who was locked in her room by her mother to prevent her elopement. Her mother then threatened to kill her fiancé and ultimately feigned being deathly ill coerce her into marrying the Duke of Marlborough. Needless to say, it was not a happy marriage. 

54 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

She was the first of what was termed by the British as "dollar princesses" - American heiresses who married British aristocrats.

She was one of the earliest and may have even be the first for whom the term was coined, but she was was definitely not the first of the trend. In fact, her godmother for whom she was named, Consuelo Yznaga, married Viscount Mandeville, who was later the Duke of Manchester. I believe it was what gave Alva Vanderbilt the inspiration and ambition for her own daughter's marriage. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by RachelKM

[TV Anonymous]

Had baseball been that popular in 1880s and had it been properly codified that the term 'three strikes' was part of the vocabulary?

And all that Mrs. Astor stood too lose, she said coup de 'grah'? Grace is pronounced 'grass', of course. A top socialite should have known that.

[RachelKM]

15 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

Had baseball been that popular in 1880s and had it been properly codified that the term 'three strikes' was part of the vocabulary?

I'm not sure how much baseball terminology was already part of the vernacular.  But baseball had definitely been popular several decades. 

Leagues were starting in the early/mid 1800s.  The National League existed at the time and I think had for around a decade+. And the teams/leagues that eventually became the American League were around too.  

[lemoncake]

48 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

She was the only daughter of the Vanderbilt railroad tycoon and was forced by her mother to marry the Duke of Marlborough. She was the first of what was termed by the British as "dollar princesses" - American heiresses who married British aristocrats. Consuelo brought with her a huge dowery and was told by her husband that this was the only reason that he married her - in order to save his ancestral home. Her mother basically traded her daughter and a boatload of money for an aristocratic title, and it was not a happy marriage. 

Interestingly, she does look a bit like the actress playing Gladys...

Yes, Fellowes is definitely using the Vanderbilt story as a driver. From building the biggest Newport cottage to the Met, where the Vanderbilts were a driving force after old money kept them out of the Academy of Music. Its fine by me, I find the Vanderbilt story fascinating. And Morgan Spector is way way hotter than Cornelius Vanderbilt. 

[magdalene]

11 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

I expect the backlog left from the strikes has resulted in bidding wars for CGI and FX people to get projects completed first - and only so many of those folks good enough to go around.  And I'm sure a LOT of those same folks are busy rendering Dragons and Westeros for House of Dragon.

So hopefully the formula of 'can we profit off another season' shows YES.

 

And there are all those pesky Warner Bros going bankrupt rumors going around.  It may not be up to HBO to renew this show.  I do hope for a third season but HBO burned me before when it canceled Rome way too soon.

[kay1864]

- Everyone at the opera was talking far too loudly once the performance began. You don’t speak in a normal conversational tone once it’s started.

- I don’t see how Marian could promise to be part of Frances‘ life. Either she’s that ditzy, or she was just trying to make Frances feel better, knowing that eventually daddy would find Harriet 2.0.

- It seemed a bit odd that the Russells celebrated until the wee hours. I imagine they had a midnight supper after the opera? And then a 6 AM breakfast? Awfully long time for everyone (including Marian!) to be sitting around the Russell house chatting about the events of the day. It would have made more sense for Larry to escort her over at 1 or 2 AM. Plus, as others have said, the broad daylight kiss was a tad unseemly— but a late night one would have been more appropriate.

Edited December 19, 2023 by kay1864

[iMonrey]

1 hour ago, Marley said:

Just because he saw literally 1 good return. He’s a dumbass. He did no research at all. Didn’t ask anyone anything. And yea he was making Maud his beard. Who cares if he’s upset now. He can fuck off.

The only part of the episode I really appreciated was Agnes reading the riot act to Oscar for not even putting as much effort into checking out this investment as a housewife buying a loaf of bread. 

3 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

- It seemed a bit odd that the Russells celebrated until the wee hours. I imagine they had a midnight supper after the opera? And then a 6 AM breakfast? Awfully long time for everyone (including Marian!) to be sitting around the Russell house chatting about the events of the day. It would have made more sense for Larry to escort her over at 1 or 2 AM. Plus, as others have said, the broad daylight kiss was a tad unseemly— but a late night one would have been more appropriate.

I thought that was weird too. They didn't have two meals, Marian pointed out that the dinner could be considered breakfast since it was by then morning. How late did they get back from the opera and how long did dinner last? The sun was up! I think this was just more lazy writing because Fellowes wanted to time it so Marian could arrive just in the nick of time to hear Ada's big announcement, which wouldn't have taken place at 2:00 in the morning.

[kay1864]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Marian could arrive just in the nick of time to hear Ada's big announcement, which wouldn't have taken place at 2:00 in the morning.

But didn’t Agnes say they had stayed up all night waiting for Marian, so Ada could finally announce? Seems like they could just as easily have stayed up until 2 instead of 6 or 7.

And again, same time conundrum… did Agnes and Ada really wait in that sitting room for 7 or 8 hours, after coming home from the Academy?

Edited December 19, 2023 by kay1864

[HappyHanna]

59 minutes ago, lemoncake said:

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

She was the only daughter of the Vanderbilt railroad tycoon and was forced by her mother to marry the Duke of Marlborough. She was the first of what was termed by the British as "dollar princesses" - American heiresses who married British aristocrats. Consuelo brought with her a huge dowery and was told by her husband that this was the only reason that he married her - in order to save his ancestral home. Her mother basically traded her daughter and a boatload of money for an aristocratic title, and it was not a happy marriage. 

Interestingly, she does look a bit like the actress playing Gladys...

Expand  

Yes, Fellowes is definitely using the Vanderbilt story as a driver. From building the biggest Newport cottage to the Met, where the Vanderbilts were a driving force after old money kept them out of the Academy of Music. Its fine by me, I find the Vanderbilt story fascinating. And Morgan Spector is way way hotter than Cornelius Vanderbilt. 

And I thought the original plan did the Gilded Age was a Downton Abbey prequel, which for whatever reason morphed into the George and Bertha show instead.  Hooking Gladys up with a Duke both would be historically on point and keep the initial idea (even if it isn't Robert and Cora).

[Atlanta]

I thought Consuelo Yznaga was one of the first dollar princesses (Consuelo V was named for her)? CY is the inspiration for Conchita Closson in the Buccaneers book.

[txhorns79]

9 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

The mistake that Bertha is making is that she thinks that Gladys will want the same thing that she does in the end (social advancement), while Gladys just isn't that mercenary.

I would disagree only to the extent that I don't think Bertha much cares what Gladys might want when Gladys wants something with which Bertha disagrees. 

I also giggled at Agnes' idea of starting to wear loose "Arab" clothing which would not require a maid to help her dress.   

[sistermagpie]

48 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

- I don’t see how Marian could promise to be part of Frances‘ life. Either she’s that ditzy, or she was just trying to make Frances feel better, knowing that eventually daddy would find Harriet 2.0.

Why not? They're family, even if they're not related by blood. They'll still be related through family if Dashiell marries someone else.

[kay1864]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Why not? They're family, even if they're not related by blood. They'll still be related through family if Dashiell marries someone else.

Oh right, that whole cousin thing. Thx.

[MBayGal]

18 hours ago, LaDuchesse said:

Squealed to see replicas of two of my favorite tiaras this episode:

Lauchtenberg Fringe (on Bertha) and Liechtenstein Honeysuckle tiara (on Turner

You are the first person I've ever known who has favorite tiaras😉😉

[Baltimore Betty]

1 hour ago, kay1864 said:

- Everyone at the opera was talking far too loudly once the performance began.

I thought so too.

1 hour ago, kay1864 said:

I don’t see how Marian could promise to be part of Frances‘ life.

If Marian teaches at France's school I could see them having a bond but that would be all because I don't see Marian going to Dasheill's house to hang out with Frances.

Bertha, Gladys and Marian pissed off their dressmaker, those were the worst dresses all season. 

I cannot imagine wearing a corset 24 hours straight, sitting in theater seats, sitting around a dining room table, etc...I'd have been in a very bad mood by the time Larry walked me to the door and kissed me, I think they call it Corset Cranky, lol.

 

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, kay1864 said:

It seemed a bit odd that the Russells celebrated until the wee hours. I imagine they had a midnight supper after the opera? And then a 6 AM breakfast?

This is actually historically accurate. I read that the New York elite of the time would have grand parties that would go until breakfast, and that was the norm for that social set. This isn't the first time they have shown parties breaking up after the sun has risen.

[Snazzy Daisy]

Bertha’s opera dress is inspired by a silk dress designed by House of Worth.

HOW Evening Dress   
 

 

Info Credit

Edited December 19, 2023 by Snazzy Daisy

[CSunshine76]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:00 PM, AntFTW said:

Also, we saw Enid get checked by her husband when she has her temper tantrum. 😂

Headmaster Charleston was having none of her nonsense!