S02.E06: Warning Shots

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, taanja said:

Oscar fell hook line and sinker! And notice Maude is conveniently leaving town!

5 hours ago, ofmd said:

As for Oscar... He is still trying to con/ charm a (as far as he knows) unsuspecting girl into marrying him while he ofc can't have feelings for her, just for greed. Maybe his journey is to realize that. By all means, do what you have to do if you need to protect yourself (remember, it can be dangerous for a gay man in this time and place), but other than that, don't be a dick. Maybe that's his journey.

Couldn’t have happened to a better person!

Oscar is using her also. And I don’t mean just as a beard or to use her supposed fortune once they’re married, I’m completely convinced that he invited himself to Maud’s supposed business meeting in the first place because he saw it as a chance to enrich himself at the first opportunity.

Although I’m on the fence about whether Oscar is being scammed, I won’t take the idea of Oscar being scammed off the table. I’m just not convinced in either direction yet. The whole story reminds me of the cliche “you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.” However, Oscar is a horse that will always drink the water. He sees Maud Beaton as a fountain of money. Oscar will drink that up all day. Others have said that Maud Beaton lured Oscar there, the only difference of opinion I have is that she didn’t have to lure him there. Oscar was already ready to go. Oscar bulldozed his way in because he thought it was an opportunity to use her to fatten his pockets. He’s scamming her also. I won’t feel bad when he loses his money in the end.

Edited December 4, 2023 by AntFTW

[EdnasEdibles]

I don't know if Marian is a poorly written character or if the actress is just kind of blank. But she was absolutely sending mixed signals to Dashiel the whole time. I mean, yes, he shouldn't have sprunk an engagement on her but I bet he thinks she's a "nice girl" and the fact that she blankly smiles when he's around and agreed to accompany his daughter to a mother/daughter tea meant that she wanted to be with him. I mean, girl, why did you stand in for the mother at the tea!? What is wrong with you? That's a huge "I'd like to be this child's mother" signal that he picked up on. 

I don't think he's evil. I think like another poster said, he wanted a wife and a mother for his daughter. She seemed like she was into him and came from the right background so it all worked out. 

[iMonrey]

9 hours ago, Marley said:

Marian isn’t going to marry Dashell it’s obvious end game is her and Larry.

It's also obvious the show wants to drag that out as long as possible. I actually think Dashiell is a good match for her. Larry still strikes me as immature and ungrounded. I agree the proposal was manipulative but Marian wasn't exactly pushing Dashiell away up to that point.

9 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Since Oscar is somewhat scamming Maude himself, I can't feel too sorry for him.  But, I think he will lose a good amount of Agnes' fortune, possibly mortgaging the house.

The problem here (well, one of the many problems with this story) is that they have not established whether Oscar has any access to his mother's money. In reality, he would not. I doubt very seriously Agnes would be foolish enough to put Oscar's name on any of her accounts. So if the season ends with Oscar telling Agnes "guess what, I lost your house and all your money" it's going to make this story even more convoluted than it already is.

[Pop Tart]

13 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Since Oscar is somewhat scamming Maude himself, I can't feel too sorry for him.  But, I think he will lose a good amount of Agnes' fortune, possibly mortgaging the house.

If that happens...  it will be Marion to the rescue.  She will either have to go through and marry Dashiel to save the family home.  Or...  Larry may grow a set, and step in and propose instead, which would also provide the money to keep the VR household going. 

Given that the reverend is a goner - something I was sure was going to happen given Fellows actually let the marriage take place, but still wants the Ada/Agnes relationship as comedic backdrop - I'm wondering if Luke is secretly rich and leaves a lot of money to Ada. So Oscar gets scammed, losing a good chunk of his money and perhaps Agnes's as well. But Ada inherits a mint from Luke. Now Ada has money and the power dynamics in the household shift.

I'm only about 30/70 on this actually happening this way, but it could definitely shake things up for Ada/Agnes and company.

 

 

[kay1864]

Enid, when she finds out she lost the first row box AND the Duke isn’t sitting with her AND she’s already convinced people to join the Met:

 

(from Roger Rabbit)

Edited December 4, 2023 by kay1864

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Enid, when she finds out she lost the first row box AND the Duke isn’t sitting with her AND she’s already convinced people to join the Met:

 

(from Roger Rabbit)

I like how she's acting like it's a favor and not because they were booted from The Academy.

[taanja]

13 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

. But Ada inherits a mint from Luke. Now Ada has money and the power dynamics in the household shift.

I'm only about 30/70 on this actually happening this way, but it could

 

I was actually thinking the same thing!

I am not as sad as others. Ada got her cake and she got to eat it too! No matter how briefly -she knew true happiness! And because new hubby has/had no children (heirs) and his mother is dead -- I am thinking Ada is going to inherit a fortune!

The dynamic will most deff change when she moves back in with Agnes.

[ahpny]

Though I suppose the "clock alarm patent" tangent was of scant interest to most, and possibly an amusing diversion from weighter issues like strike violence and opera box ownership, it was of some interest to those familar with patents because it was flagrantly misrepresentative of the patenting process and just wrong in almost every way.

While the current patenting process isn't identical to that in place in the 1880's, the current process isn't fundamentally different from that 140 years ago.

First, there has never been a patent office in New York City.

Second, the only patent office - in Washington D.C. (or more precisely Crystal City, Virginia now)- is not like the DMV, where you fill out a form and wait on line for anything.

Third, you send an application that tells the Patent Office why you should be entitled to a patent because your invention is new and non-obvious. That application is "prosecuted" by the Patent Office, i.e., an Patent Office Examiner considers whether your application is worthy of issuing as a patent by assessing how different it is from prior art - stuff that came before. That process can and take years. 

Fourth, a patent application would never be rejected because the applicant isn't a member of some specific group. That's just stupid. There's never been any provision like that in the patent laws of this country.

The filing fees mentioned in this episode do seem to be historically in the ball park, however. But today, and presumably then as well, the lion's share of the cost of filing a patent application isn't the application filing fees charged by the Patent Office, but the fees a patent lawyer charges to write the patent application. While anyone can file a patent application (and you don't necessarily need a patent lawyer to do that), the patent application rules are so byzantine that it's almost impossible for a pro se applicant to file his or her own patent application.

For those who want to wade into the weeds on this, see https://www.ipmall.info/content/patent-history-materials-index-brief-history-united-states-patent-office-its-foundation-1790

Edited December 5, 2023 by ahpny

[kay1864]

5 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I like how [Enid is] acting like it's a favor and not because they were booted from The Academy.

She is so perfectly cast; she always looks like she just chewed up an entire lemon.

4 minutes ago, ahpny said:

a patent application would never be rejected because the applicant isn't a member of some specific group.

Well dang. Bugs me when a show like this deviates from known history.
 

Thanks for the insight!

Edited December 4, 2023 by kay1864

[ofmd]

53 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I don't know if Marian is a poorly written character or if the actress is just kind of blank. But she was absolutely sending mixed signals to Dashiel the whole time.

 

She is both, but I don't think it's her fault that her kindness and her weird love for the terrible child seem like an invitation to him. If he thought he'd be well received, he wouldn't have to resort to the public guerilla proposal ...

 

46 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

Given that the reverend is a goner - something I was sure was going to happen given Fellows actually let the marriage take place, but still wants the Ada/Agnes relationship as comedic backdrop - I'm wondering if Luke is secretly rich and leaves a lot of money to Ada. So Oscar gets scammed, losing a good chunk of his money and perhaps Agnes's as well. But Ada inherits a mint from Luke. Now Ada has money and the power dynamics in the household shift.

I'm only about 30/70 on this actually happening this way, but it could definitely shake things up for Ada/Agnes and company.

I was thinking of an inheritance for Ada, too. And I'm still convinced that Oscar may be able to get scammed for Agnes' fortune as well as his own, so your juxtaposition makes perfect sense. Ah, how the tables would be turned! I'm sure Baranski would be great at making Agnes secretly seethe with the humiliation.

Edited December 4, 2023 by ofmd

[Haleth]

I’m afraid Oscar “borrowed” money from investors’ accounts at the bank and he will lose it to the scammers. But then I think we would have already been shown this. I’m still not sure if Maud is in on it but her mysterious parentage and her convenient exit are suspicious.

43 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I don't know if Marian is a poorly written character or if the actress is just kind of blank

Yes.

I agree that Dashiell isn’t a bad person, he’s just really bad at reading the room. I’m thinking the engagement will fall apart once he informs Marion that she will have to quit her job once they are married.

Seems like every week I recommend a book that is tangent to the episode. Today I’m recommending The Last Days of Night by Graham Moore. Although it’s a novel it’s a really interesting look at patents and legal issues during the Gilded Age. The book is about the legal fight between Edison and Westinghouse for the patent for the lightbulb. It became personal and they spared no expense in the battle. 

[kay1864]

6 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I’m still not sure if Maud is in on it but her mysterious parentage

Wait, what? 

[chaifan]

57 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I'm wondering if Luke is secretly rich and leaves a lot of money to Ada. So Oscar gets scammed, losing a good chunk of his money and perhaps Agnes's as well. But Ada inherits a mint from Luke. Now Ada has money and the power dynamics in the household shift.

Oh. My. God.  I love this.  This is possible - it's very possible Luke came from money, but was "called" to the church.  We know his mother recently died, so he could have a giant bank account but chooses to live frugally.  This would be such a fun twist, especially if the inheritance isn't revealed until the last episode, setting up Season 3 for a whole new relationship dynamic between Ada and Agnes.  Can you imagine Ada taking the money, getting a makeover (oh, that would be so fun - a 1880's makeover montage!), doing things her way now that she's not dependent on Agnes.  (Her status as widow, vs. spinster, will also allow her more freedom in society.)

And, if this happens, it allows Ada to step in and tell Marion she doesn't have to marry Dashiel, and that Ada will take care of her until/if Mr. Right comes along.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

The problem here (well, one of the many problems with this story) is that they have not established whether Oscar has any access to his mother's money.

I agree - this hasn't been established.  But, given the time, it is possible he's on the deed to the home, possibly jointly with Agnes.  It would make sense if his father willed the home to both of them, if not Oscar outright. 

12 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Wait, what? 

In the episode that Maude was introduced, Aurora said something about her father being "rumored" to be Jay Gould.  I really didn't understand, or care, at the time.  But this makes sense if she is the scam artist we're suspecting her to be.  (That Maude would have planted the rumor herself to give her more status in society, along with an air of mystery.)

[Conotocarious]

Google Cassie Chadwick, a real life historical figure. There’s some similarities to Maude. I think she is a scam artist.

[ofmd]

2 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

This is brilliant and sums up why I find his work so obnoxious.

Why can't Peggy be a smart young Black journalist making her way? That story would be very compelling. Why does she have to have a secret love child and now possibly another scandalous entanglement with a married man who's her boss?

Because Fellowes. See also: Why Gay Men Are Soundrels. Why Gay Women Don't Exist, and Why High Society Are Awesome, I Just Wish They'd Let Me New Aspiring Rich Folks In...

.

58 minutes ago, taanja said:

I am not as sad as others. Ada got her cake and she got to eat it too! No matter how briefly -she knew true happiness!

 

The poor woman got one little bite of that delicious cake and will probably never get another chance at cake again...

[SFoster21]

14 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

I don't care, I know it's Fellows Soap Opera, but Cynthia and Robert Sean are the best actors and I'm going to cry until tomorrow.

Not much Bertha, but lots of George, I'll take it.

They are damn sure the prettiest.  And her dress! Ohh

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

and seriously Julian STOP with the “rich people are secretly good.” It made no sense when Downton guy (sorry blanking on name) was super OK with thomas being gay because eton (cause just no.) and George halting the soldiers is also wishful thinking. (It was also absurd when the irish revolutionary guy felt bad for the aristocrats whose castles got burned down in Ireland. Just. Would. Not. Happen.)

OMG, yes. His ordering the men to stand down wasn't strategic, it was that of course he had to be too noble to do anything really bad to people. Because he hasn't been hurting these people from a distance all this time at all!

11 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Peggy’s storylines bore me. I don’t turn on this show to be immersed in the social issues of the day- similarly if we spent many weeks on the strike I’d be bored with that. TBH I’m here for the clothes.

Yes, where the social issues of the white people are presented in ways where we're personally invested, with Peggy it's just an abstract thing where she's Donig What's Right. So somehow things that are far far more important (like Civil Rights) are far less important than who gets the central box at the opera. Which is one thing when all the characters live in the white bubble, but Peggy's a main character!

1 hour ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I don't know if Marian is a poorly written character or if the actress is just kind of blank. But she was absolutely sending mixed signals to Dashiel the whole time. I mean, yes, he shouldn't have sprunk an engagement on her but I bet he thinks she's a "nice girl" and the fact that she blankly smiles when he's around and agreed to accompany his daughter to a mother/daughter tea meant that she wanted to be with him. I mean, girl, why did you stand in for the mother at the tea!? What is wrong with you? That's a huge "I'd like to be this child's mother" signal that he picked up on. 

Yes, you'd think she'd understand the ideas both father and daughter were getting here given that she actually lives in this society.

That said, those two don't seem to be just confused by her mixed signals since they only see what they want to see.

Add me to the list of people who was at first shocked when Ada said she "contributed" to the good reverend's bad back! 

 

1 hour ago, ahpny said:

Though I suppose the "clock alarm patent" tangent was if scant interest to most, and possibly an amusing diversion from weighter issues like strike violence and opera box ownership, it was of some interest to those familar with patents because it was flagrantly misrepresentative of the patenting process and just wrong in almost every way.

Thank you! I know nothing about any of this, but it seemed completely impossible that Trotter would have to be part of any guild to get a patent on anything. There's a long history of outsiders being the ones to crack something the alleged experts can't, especially in the US. (Einstein worked in a patent office, didn't he?) It's not Rennaissance Italy.

 

[SFoster21]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That said, those two don't seem to be just confused by her mixed signals since they only see what they want to see.

Add me to the list of people who was at first shocked when Ada said she "contributed" to the good reverend's bad back! 

Cynthia Nixon is the most perfect comedienne!

[Sarah 103]

15 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

The scene between the strikers and military men was intense. And I’m surprised George has a heart after all. 

We already knew George had a heart. He seemed on board at least in theory with the workers having time with their families last week. He did not seem to think it was a horrible outrageous idea. His big moment in this episode was already set up earlier. 

15 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Agnes is such a conundrum of keeping the old school as is and progressive with her staff.

This is a fascinating point and I wonder how common this attitude was. Maybe she sees the alarm clock as a worthy pursuit in his off hours, and she is pleased he is spending what little free time he has to do something productive. 

10 hours ago, BloomsburyRez said:

Although I still think Marion’s  stocks are worth millions unbeknownst to all.

This is my theory. The stocks that she has were/are worthless (the lawyer was right), and then something will happen and change their value. The stocks that were worthless are now suddenly worth an absolute fortune. 

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

They don't seem especially reasonable: eight hour's work day isn't their long term plan but they demand it at once and it's foolish to prepare to shoot themselves as in a fight they are certain to loose. 

Actually, that is their long term plan. This is one of the few historical things the show is getting right. This was absolutely one of the demands from some unions during this era and persisted as a demand until it was accomplished. 

3 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Why can't Peggy be a smart young Black journalist making her way? That story would be very compelling. Why does she have to have a secret love child and now possibly another scandalous entanglement with a married man who's her boss?

Huge YES! Peggy does not need soap opera plots and a love story. There are other characters to do those kind of plot lines with. What makes Peggy unique is her ability to tell stories about the Black elite of New York or the Black population of New York in general during this era. If you want to include stories about race and what was happening in New York City around racial issues, this to me is the reason why Peggy exists. 

Also, I want a spin-off series about Peggy's family. I want to see how her mother spends her day: what does she do? who does she see? 

[Roseanna]

7 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

We already knew George had a heart. He seemed on board at least in theory with the workers having time with their families last week. He did not seem to think it was a horrible outrageous idea. His big moment in this episode was already set up earlier. 

 

Yeah, Fellowes presents it so, but it's not realistic in that age. Ultimately, what George can do is limited by his peers.    

[rollacoaster]

17 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Also, I want a spin-off series about Peggy's family. I want to see how her mother spends her day: what does she do? who does she see? 

Absolutely! And I'd love to know how Peggy's once enslaved father achieved the success that he has. And her mom and dad's journey to New York. 

[tennisgurl]

I suspected that things with Ada and Luke would have to be temporary to hold onto that status quo of Ada and Agnes living together, but this still really sucks. I was all excited last week that we actually made it to the altar and it seemed like Luke really was on the up and up and now this. Not a lot of treatment for cancer at the time so things are really not looking good. Poor Ada, and so soon after she finally found love. What did she do to piss JF off so much? 

I like this story for Peggy a lot more than her being down south, but I still hate that she's so pulled to this married guy, even as she is clearly trying to set boundaries. Also, who the hell has girl talk that goes from "we were almost lynched" to "then we kissed! And it was so dreamy"? What is even the hell? 

Poor Jack, it was sweet how excited he and and how everyone was pitching in to help (except for Armstrong, who seriously just needs to shut up) and then he still ended up getting rejected because he wasn't part of the stupid clock club. Its a pretty interesting way of continuing the theme of class conflict from the plot with the labor unions, it can be so hard to rise up to be successful, even if you have the skills and the drive, if you don't have money and the background to have the "right" credentials. I am dreading finding out that some rich hobbyist is already working on taking Jack's idea and patenting it for himself.  

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Its a pretty interesting way of continuing the theme of class conflict from the plot with the labor unions, it can be so hard to rise up to be successful, even if you have the skills and the drive, if you don't have money and the background to have the "right" credentials. I am dreading finding out that some rich hobbyist is already working on taking Jack's idea and patenting it for himself.  

So silly, though, the more you think about it, since this is about invention. It's the last area where you'd require people to already be attached to professional production of the product since it might not exist yet.

[Sarah 103]

36 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Yeah, Fellowes presents it so, but it's not realistic in that age. Ultimately, what George can do is limited by his peers.    

Yes, but I want to clarify my point. You are correct from a historical perspective. I was thinking from a narrative/storytelling perspective. This is a character trait that has been previously set-up and makes some sense, even though it is historically inaccurate.  

I feel like this is one of those rare instances where we can both be right.

28 minutes ago, rollacoaster said:

Absolutely! And I'd love to know how Peggy's once enslaved father achieved the success that he has. And her mom and dad's journey to New York. 

I know he hired a Black writer to help with Peggy's story and serve as a consultant. It would be beyond fantastic if after this series ended, HBO hired her to do a spin-off series focusing on Peggy's family from the Civil War through Peggy leaving for school in Philadelphia.  

[ahpny]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

There's a long history of outsiders being the ones to crack something the alleged experts can't, especially in the US. (Einstein worked in a patent office, didn't he?)

He did indeed is a patent examiner in the Swiss Patent Office. He reputedly and enjoyed the job and may have done some of his most profound work (or at least thinking about profound work) while prosecuting Swiss patent applications. 

[ofmd]

30 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

What did she do to piss JF off so much?

I think it's not what she did, but simply not being the women... woman ... and people JF is really interested in and roots for. Same goes for Peggy, Oscar, poor folks etc. Just my speculation from watching two of his shows ofc.

[taanja]

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

Because Fellowes. See also: Why Gay Men Are Soundrels. Why Gay Women Don't Exist, and Why High Society Are Awesome, I Just Wish They'd Let Me New Aspiring Rich Folks In...

.

The poor woman got one little bite of that delicious cake and will probably never get another chance at cake again...

Some people never even get to SEE the cake much less get a taste! Ada was given a lovely gift. 

[Roseanna]

39 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Yes, but I want to clarify my point. You are correct from a historical perspective. I was thinking from a narrative/storytelling perspective. This is a character trait that has been previously set-up and makes some sense, even though it is historically inaccurate.  

I feel like this is one of those rare instances where we can both be right.

I understand and respect your POV. 

However, it would be IMO far more interesting to keep George as a man who  acts unselfissly only towards his family while otherwise pursueing ruthlessly his own interests. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Roseanna
two typo corrections

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I understand and respect your POV. 

However, it would be IMO far more interesting to keep George as a manwho  acts unselflissly only towards his family while otherwise pursueing ruthlessly his own interests. 

I don't remember the details now, but wasn't he pretty chill about driving a rich man to suicide in S1? But when it comes to workers he gets softer. I think it's because JF honestly thinks of the true upper classes he writes about as feeling paternalistic and so protective of the people beneath them, so they always act like good mommy or daddy to their servants/non-white people.

[ofmd]

Yes, and the workers are just so greedy, what with their wish to work only 8 hours and all... Don't they see that paying them more or having them work less hours would practically impoverish him? Being stern hurts him more than them, I'm sure! /s Sorry, I feel snarky today.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, taanja said:

And there was NO deodorant! Think of the smells!

 

That explains the ladies of the time buying gallons of french perfume and aftershave and lavender sachets. I assume there also were those bits of removable, washable muslin, that the maids stitched under the armpits and breast areas, and washed and resewed on the garments with each use. Also big spaces to air things out.

I hoped when I heard about Luke's back issues that it was a fake out.  It was unnecessary, too, a perfectly good story could be told around it. The same with the kiss in the barn. Unnecessary. Ada could slip into a middle class life and we could see that. Peggy could start her first novel. Etc.

Peggy really has problems with romance, though. She needs to concentrate on almost anything else.

George probably could make some small part of the world kinder and more progressive, but he is married to the wrong woman and he seems fond of her, too. She would not take kindly to a loss of income and power. He might see that a school was built, though. It wouldn't prevent a strike, but it might improve conditions in the future.  Maybe time to do some reading.

 

 

[iMonrey]

16 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Supposedly, he is investing in a railroad acquisition.

To what end? Would he then be a major shareholder in a railway company? Or in the company that acquires this railway? This doesn't sound like the kind of "get rich quick" scheme a scammer would offer. 

The guy Oscar is dealing with expressed concern that Oscar is taking advantage of Maud. How, exactly? Whatever her investment in this company/scheme it's in name only, since apparently J. Gould is the actual investor and using her name as a cover. How would she, in any way, be taken advantage of if Oscar invests in the same thing?

This story is too vague and confusing. Whatever the outcome it doesn't make any sense at the moment.

[buttersister]

Quote

Oh look, George Russell is a good robber baron!

You bet he is. Who’s rooting for the guy who gets strikers and their families killed on camera? Not to mention the almost hilarious point that he and his shittier owner were in the line of fire.

With all the speculation on board, are we looking at Oscar and Agnes (because Oscar) losing their fortune and they and Ada (Rev wasn’t rich) will be supported by the newly rich (and still single, I predict) Marion and her somehow magical stocks? (Waves to Matthew Crawley.)

[AntFTW]

27 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

To what end?

To make money. To gain more wealth.

28 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Would he then be a major shareholder in a railway company?

If there is a railroad company, I'm not sure how much of shareholder he would be, but he does want to be a principal. He doesn't just want to be a minority shareholder and collect checks while others call the shots. He wants to be one of the handful of people to have some say in the direction of the investment or the company.

31 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The guy Oscar is dealing with expressed concern that Oscar is taking advantage of Maud. How, exactly?

To use Maud for access to people and opportunities that he would not otherwise have in order to enrich himself. Oscar went to that office under the pretense of helping Maud. Instead, he goes there and helps himself. Also, it seems very clear to Mr. Crowther that Oscar is a fortune hunter. He's chasing fortune through Maud in more than one way.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't remember the details now, but wasn't he pretty chill about driving a rich man to suicide in S1?

That's less direct than ordering a state militia to shoot people.

George could not have known that Mr. Moore would have committed suicide as a result of George outwitting Mr. Moore, in a scheme that Mr. Moore started.

Moore is a much less sympathetic and more culpable character than the workers.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Moore is a much less sympathetic and more culpable character than the workers.

Right, but I'm saying it's not surprising that this is JF's design. He shows George being ruthless when dealing with other rich guys who try to cross him, and not feeling guilty for a suicide he didn't predict and didn't choose. But as a Good Paternal Elite, he sees the lower classes as more innocent.

[RachelKM]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I agree the proposal was manipulative but Marian wasn't exactly pushing Dashiell away up to that point.

Oh absolutely.  Marian is off the hook for the way she reacted to the engagement. But that girl is dumb as a brick when it comes to courting. Two season, two love interests in which Marian comes across as an absolute dolt about herself as well as the men with whom she interacts. Even her facial expressions are all but vacant. They've improved her in other relationships and sometimes she even shows wit. But, with the men actively courting her, she retains the affect of neurological impairment.  

Last season I blamed Louisa Jacobson entirely.  But, she has improved in most other types of scenes, even with Larry. So you can't say she's just benefiting from and/or reacting to a powerhouse screen partner. I'm convinced, at this point, that its Julian Fellowes and his writing team.  This show is chock a block with A-list actors who's talent and charisma elevates the material and covers a lot of writing flaws.  But the just okay actors seem to STRUGGLE sometimes.

I knew they were going for an Emmaline and Mr. Harris thing like Anne of Avonlea from E1 when they stressed that he was not her actual cousin literally every time they were in a scene together.  But damn they went heavy handed with it.  I can't get too mad at LJ. Even her mother would struggle selling that set up. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by RachelKM

[Atlanta]

Is there another newspaper/magazine Peggy can work for? Please get her away from predator Fortune. Maybe she can do her muckraking elsewhere? 

I really hope Ada helps Marian get out of that "engagement." Can't Dashiell find some youngish widow to find? Introduce him to Mrs Blane. 

I really wish we got more episodes this season. Here's to hope for season three to be longer! There's so much going on. 

[Carolina Girl]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Agnes would be foolish enough to put Oscar's name on any of her accounts.

Agnes has alluded to the fact that she knows her son will be marrying more for money than anything else.  He would not have to do so if he had access to the Van Rhyn money.  I imagine Agnes' husband put the fortune in the hands of a reputable business manager and Oscar has his "position" at the bank either as a good-will payoff for same or because the bank is eager to partner with him once his mother is gone and the fortune is in hands.  

And Maud is totally in on the scheme.  That whole "waiting outside" schtick - wonder what she would have done if Oscar had asked if he might "come in" for a quick glass of water or to wash his face and hands on a hot day.  

Oh, and there's one thing that has bothered me since Season 1.  Marion shows up to Peggy's house with a carpetbag full of old shoes.  Uh, did she like totally IGNORE the way Peggy was dressed or the shoes she was wearing prior to this? Peggy was always beautifully and smartly attired - she wasn't having to switch between three dresses all the time and I'm sure her shoes were well cared for.  Why the hell would Marion not see her as a woman of good family?  

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

Agnes has alluded to the fact that she knows her son will be marrying more for money than anything else.  He would not have to do so if he had access to the Van Rhyn money.

I think he would. I think Oscar believes the Van Rhijn money is not enough.

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

However, it would be IMO far more interesting to keep George as a man who  acts unselfissly only towards his family while otherwise pursueing ruthlessly his own interests. 

I am totally okay with the way they had set-up George before the past two episodes. I was on board with the George who was a despicable robber baron and a horrible person in the world of work, but was a fantastic husband and a decent father.

I don't know why Jullian Fellows felt the need to give George a dramatic work-related storyline about unions and the working class. 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't know why Jullian Fellows felt the need to give George a dramatic work-related storyline about unions and the working class. 

Because Julian Fellowes fancies himself a satirist of the upper classes while being an absolute cliché example of a certain type of his class.  I bet he throws really pretty fundraisers.   

Edited December 4, 2023 by RachelKM

[ofmd]

42 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Is there another newspaper/magazine Peggy can work for? Please get her away from predator Fortune. Maybe she can do her muckraking elsewhere? 

 

I bet there isn't. Maybe Mrs Fortune will be kind enough to pass away, or be depicted as a mean woman or whatever. Maybe F. goes back to the South and goes missing, never to be seen again, while Peggy discovers she is... nvm.

23 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

Agnes has alluded to the fact that she knows her son will be marrying more for money than anything else.  He would not have to do so if he had access to the Van Rhyn money.  I imagine Agnes' husband put the fortune in the hands of a reputable business manager and Oscar has his "position" at the bank either as a good-will payoff for same or because the bank is eager to partner with him once his mother is gone and the fortune is in hands.  

Oh, and there's one thing that has bothered me since Season 1.  Marion shows up to Peggy's house with a carpetbag full of old shoes.  Uh, did she like totally IGNORE the way Peggy was dressed or the shoes she was wearing prior to this? Peggy was always beautifully and smartly attired - she wasn't having to switch between three dresses all the time and I'm sure her shoes were well cared for.  Why the hell would Marion not see her as a woman of good family?  

But maybe Oscar has been entrusted with taking care of the family money and now "invests" that, too? Or he'll convince his mother to invest in this totally safe railroad-or-whatever.

As for the shoes scene last season... Yes, that was so heavy-handed, Marian looked like a not particularly bright 5-year-old.

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

But Ada inherits a mint from Luke. Now Ada has money and the power dynamics in the household shift.

Even if this was to happen, Ada isn't really one to be so assertive that the dynamics would really change.  Besides, Ada would have a lot of paying back to do given her sister has been taking care of her for what, 30 or so years? 

25 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't know why Jullian Fellows felt the need to give George a dramatic work-related storyline about unions and the working class. 

I do appreciate an occasional storyline where the stakes are slightly higher than who gets what box at the opera.  It does help to develop George beyond just reacting to, or helping with, Bertha's social climbing.    

Quote

Why the hell would Marion not see her as a woman of good family?  

The racial dynamics of the time?  How many well to do black people do you think Marian came across before meeting Peggy?  In her mind, being black was synonymous with being underprivileged.  It's Marian's own prejudice and ignorance acting up.     

[RachelKM]

18 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I do appreciate an occasional storyline where the stakes are slightly higher than who gets what box at the opera.  It does help to develop George beyond just reacting to, or helping with, Bertha's social climbing.  

I do too.  But 19th and early 20th century labor strikes and The Redemption Era South are hard topics to skim past without trivializing or turning into shallow stunts.  This show is clothing and architecture porn overlaid on a soap opera.

If I was looking for story that takes on the issues of industrial era class dynamics, I will just watch North & South again. 

And if I want to watch a discussion of the dynamics of the south I will... well, not watch North and South. But maybe, Roots or other Roots?  We kinda suck at taking honest looks at the Redemption Era.  No joke, anyone got a good recommendation?

Edited December 5, 2023 by RachelKM

[JenE4]

Are you telling me they gave Newsie like 4 episodes to fiddle with his clock, but Aunt Agnes can’t even get one episode of marriage without preparing to kill off her husband?!? Come on!

Like Marian herself, I also forgot she got engaged to Dashell by the end of the episode. But with Larry asking her about the engagement, and especially the prolonged closeup of him sadly walking away immediately after the proposal, the show is making it abundantly clear that if you haven’t yet taken in all the clues from the first season and a half, Marian and Larry are “endgame” despite their entanglements with others. Now, knowing Fellows, he might drag this out until the final season—but these two will get together eventually.

That was pretty wild that they were going to shoot the protestors, but I guess this is what life was like back then. I’m guessing George will be the first robber Barron with a heart of gold, giving them their 8-8-8, and defining modern-day workplace practices. Heck, we now got Peggy, Marian, and George concerned about schools, so I wouldn’t be surprised if their three storylines cross over. I mean, I hope they do. Otherwise we get it—Black people, girls, and working-class whites all have similar disadvantages—throw in Newsie without his clockmaker club and Emily Roebling doing the work for her husband, while we’re at it. It’s interesting to show different aspects of society beyond the upper crust and their house staff, but it’s getting a little repetitive. Can we consolidate the various school storylines?

[Sarah 103]

15 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

But 19th and early 20th century labor strikes and The Redemption Era South are hard topics to skim past without trivializing or turning into shallow stunts.  This show is clothing and architecture porn overlaid on a soap opera.

You have articulated something very important here that I could not quite put into words. The business dealings among the members of the League of Bearded Gentlemen (Shout-out to Tom and Lorenzo for letting me borrow that perfect phrase of theirs) work because it fits into the soap opera dynamics/structure where this series lives and really shines. Anything outside of that (like the strikes) and the show struggles. 

11 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

Heck, we now got Peggy, Marian, and George concerned about schools, so I wouldn’t be surprised if their three storylines cross over. 

I don't think they will because they are actually three separate stories. George's concern is based in Philadelphia. Peggy is focusing on young (school-age) Black children. Marian is teaching (White) immigrant adults, and working at a school for wealthy young (White) girls. There is very little overlap between the groups.

I thought it was interesting that Marian took the commitment to teaching immigrants more seriously than her co-workers. It seems as though almost everyone except Marian saw it as something charitable for young women to fill their time with between the more "important" activities needed to maintain's one status as a proper young women and finding a suitable husband.

[MartyQui]

So Luke probably has kidney cancer, which often presents as a pain in the back.  There was surgical treatment of cancer existing then, especially once ether was developed, so it *could* be possible that they do a nephrectomy and give him a year. But I don’t think Fellowes thinks that way.  I wanted Luke to go to Mass General in Boston and have a successful operation.  Poor Ada.

[buttersister]

Or pancreatic cancer, unfortunately.

Rev, we hardly knew ye.

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Even if this was to happen, Ada isn't really one to be so assertive that the dynamics would really change.  Besides, Ada would have a lot of paying back to do given her sister has been taking care of her for what, 30 or so years? 

I do appreciate an occasional storyline where the stakes are slightly higher than who gets what box at the opera.  It does help to develop George beyond just reacting to, or helping with, Bertha's social climbing.    

The racial dynamics of the time?  How many well to do black people do you think Marian came across before meeting Peggy?  In her mind, being black was synonymous with being underprivileged.  It's Marian's own prejudice and ignorance acting up.     

Servants dress nicely but their families may be poor. Marion didn't want to visit empty handed. It is as much class prejudice as racialv motivated. I think. And not unkind, condescending,  etc, but not unkindly meant. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Affogato