S02.E03: Head to Head

[chaifan]

58 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I feel like we're saying the same things unless I'm misinterpreting you. 🤔

Maybe.  I got the impression that you thought Turner was in a truly "she can't help herself" position by going to the Russell's, whereas I saw it as much more intentional.

I feel that Turner sought out to marry the richest guy possible just so she could shove it in Bertha's face.  Showing up Bertha is her purpose in life, not just a convenient by product of her new status. 

Anyway you look at it, I don't know how much life there is in this plot line.  I think what would be fabulous is for Turner to paint Bertha into a corner somehow, and it's Mrs. Astor who comes to Bertha's rescue.  If Mrs. Astor shuns you, you are shunned, no matter how rich your husband is. 

[AntFTW]

10 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Maybe.  I got the impression that you thought Turner was in a truly "she can't help herself" position by going to the Russell's, whereas I saw it as much more intentional.

I feel that Turner sought out to marry the richest guy possible just so she could shove it in Bertha's face.  Showing up Bertha is her purpose in life, not just a convenient by product of her new status.

Oh, I see! I don't agree that her marrying a rich man was solely to get back at Bertha. I think that was her own goal, whether she had even met Bertha or not. I think the goal she set for her life is to be the wife of a rich man. When she said last season that she didn't intend to be a maid forever, I believed that. I took that as truth.

However, once she married the rich guy (no matter who the rich guy ultimately was, whether new money or old money), she was going to shove it in Bertha's face. It worked out better for her that she happened to snag an well-known Old Money rich guy that can mingle among European nobility. That was icing on the cake. That makes the "rubbing in" extra special.

10 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Anyway you look at it, I don't know how much life there is in this plot line.

I agree. There's not much behind it to explore.

Edited November 14, 2023 by AntFTW

[ZaldamoWilder]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:56 PM, sistermagpie said:

Oscar Wilde's plays are definitely not known to be boring--which is probably why this one's rarely done. It was the first one of his performed, according to Wikipedia, and closed after a week. No surprise.

Most of plays, at least the ones I've seen, aren't tragedies, though. It seems like that's what they were hinting at. Basically people saying, "Wow, the play's terrible but he's hilarious in person..." Iow, he'll be a hit when he starts writing plays that are more like himself.

I can understand why Bertha's mad a George, certainly, but if I were her I'd at least look forward to telling Turner how embarassing it must have been for her to get naked and then get thrown out of bed. 

The Colyer girl seems to have inherited her family's heartlessness. Turns out the guy didn't do anything wrong except be a loser. Which is a perfectly good reason to divorce him, I guess, but the way they're treating him makes me want them to get found out. 

I am so rooting for Ada and the minister. I find his Boston accent endearing--no idea if it's well-done or not, but it's not aggressive or distracting, but still a nice character note. As soon as they brought out the soup I knew this was no soup, it was chowdah! I wonder why he hasn't married. Seems like he was trying to make some sort of point with that story about the painting. But I suppose he also doesn't have much money? 

He lied about it to begin with, so she doesn't know with certainty what happened, she knows what he said happened.  A sentence like this has your petty rival ready to respond with:  what makes you think he threw me out?  Now you look smug and dumb and lied to some more...in front of your husband's strumpet.  Nope. 

On 11/12/2023 at 11:13 PM, AntFTW said:

I'm sorry. Help me out. I don't know what this means. ☺️

Girl imma need you to watch all 112 Seasons of Downton Abbey.  Goofy ass side movies too.  If the first episode doesn't get you, please hang in there for the first appearance of Dame Margaret Natalie Smith.  I wish she'd make an album reading us the alphabet so they could gawn and make her an EGOT already.  I digress.  Watch it for real lol.  

On 11/13/2023 at 11:30 AM, Pop Tart said:

Agree on this. It allowed her to land a blow on Bertha in the moment, but will likely come back to haunt her.

Also agree with others she's being very short-sighted in her need to show up Bertha. She should never have come to an event at the Russells as it makes no matter if the Russell family keep her secret or not. As soon as the other servants see her the gossip is going to fly. 

She could have kept her previous identity secret much longer by not appearing anywhere where the people who knew her before would be (beyond the Russells). To the Russell servants the gossip about a new Mrs. Winterton (?) would mean nothing as long as they never saw her.

I sympathized with both Bertha and George in their fight. He did turn Turner away as soon as he realized so to his mind he had not betrayed Bertha. But to have a woman dressing you, doing your hair, giving you advice, etc. who had tried to sleep with your husband and you know nothing about it? Especially if you find out about it publicly from the venomous woman who was responsible? That would really hurt - especially as Bertha and George see themselves as a team.

Generally, I'm not sure most men understand the exact nature of the betrayal here. Especially because this is a character not only very much in love with his wife, but in tune to her.   The physical construction of an affair is almost forgiveable.  If and only if a) you don't have an emotional tie to her and just as importantly b) you deny her the power to surprise me with something about my own relationship.  Bay-bee that letter b)?  I'm really shocked she didn't put him downstairs with Monsieur Borden n'em. 

22 hours ago, Juneau Gal said:

Turner was not dismissed by George after her advances, what was she dismissed for? I can’t remember. Thanks in advance. 

This is the other thing.  That would've been her job and her decision to make, so her ultimate dismissal doesn't mitigate anything for Bertha.  Turner knows that George kept it a secret because Bertha didn't fire her the next day.    When George asked if the introduction to the Duke would get him off the hook, I really needed her to be like:  the fuck it will.  Let me know if you reach him. 

22 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I understand Peggy's mother - of course all mothers would be worried. But if Peggy wants to become a real journalist and later an author, she can't avoid risks.

I wouldn't carr-my happy ass to nobody's sundown town in 20 and 23, The Year of our Lord.  Alabama's last (known) lynching was in 1981.  Ya'll.  Did you hear me say within my and some of yall's lifetime a black man was hanged?   I know Peggy's got a strategy about keeping moving since finding out about the baby but I wanted Audra to shake her, something.  Sheeeid, this sound like The Talk we have today.   Much deeper than subservience, pride any of that.  First, you gotta make it home.    

21 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I truly don't understand why Agnes is so sour all the damn time. She appears to get no joy out of life. I know that she had a rough go with her husband but good God lady. She sneers at everyone.  Why is Rev. Dead Poets Society so horrendously awful in her opinion? Why does she need to cut Ada down every 10 minutes? The only time I saw anything close to pleasure was when she realized she could send threatening letters out to opera fans. 

I need to either see a flashback explaining why she is the way that she is or have them show a moment of sweetness because otherwise she drives me crazy. 

 

Nobody knows the trouble she's seen.  Nobody knows her sorrow.  I'd guess more than just a rough go, she's managed to keep the Van Rijns afloat, without a man, not penniless and still living in a fully staffed house on lah de dah street. Quite an accomplishment, for a widow, for a woman at the time.    Everybody kind of benefits from her largesse but doesn't really acknowledge the sacrifice it took for her to make it.   I think it's her litmus so everything else by comparison just isn't a bfd.   I'm biased though, I love Christine Baranski's delivery.

Carrie definitely argued with the wardrobe department this episode.  Sky blue pleats.  How dreadful.  

Turner's playing checkers and the game is chess.   Where is she supposed to have come across all this old money high society ways knowledge exactly?

Where did Mrs. Astor send word to Mr. McAllister that the coven was meeting if she didn't know he was across the street?  

She/he/you means to catch me out.  I want to figure out how to work this into my next accusatory conversation.   

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by ZaldamoWilder
::shakesfist:: dammit, I almost made a clean get away

[RachelKM]

5 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

When George asked if the introduction to the Duke would get him off the hook, I really needed her to be like:  the fuck it will.  Let me know if you reach him. 

I wanted her to say "Likely not. But not doing it will definitely hang you on a new one."

9 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

 Where is she supposed to have come across all this old money high society ways knowledge exactly?

If I remember correctly, she had worked in upper class houses before working for the Russells and was hired as much for her knowledge of the class as her skills in serving.  Considering how far beneath her she viewed Mrs. Russell, however, I do wonder why she was available to be hired by them and why she couldn't leave.

If this were real life, I'd suspect she got above herself in someway in a prior household and her references were, at best, faint praise of a sort that would have kept her out of the best homes but not been an obvious red flag to relative newcomers, both because that brand of stupidity and overconfidence doesn't appear overnight and that she was available and willing to work for them at all. Within the show, they may just say she was an housemaid  looking for an opportunity to move up. 

[sugarbaker design]

2 hours ago, Tango64 said:

So George's strategy was to bring the union rep fighting for the poor working man to his luxurious home, treat him to a lavish luncheon, show off all his ostentatious lifestyle... and confirm the guy's impression that George is just an out-of-touch asshole who doesn't care about anyone else as long as he can live like this?

George's strategy was to buy the union leader off.  It didn't work.

[tennisgurl]

Turner has fucked around and now she's going to find out. Bertha has been busy being pissed at George but when they make up she's going to put all of her time into taking Turner down, especially if she tries to pull that sort of shit on her again, she better watch herself. 

This labor strike is going to take a violent turn I fear, especially with that ominous look the union rep and his wife shared when he said they needed to be willing to die and we know that strikes, especially around this time, could involve fatalities. Between this and Peggy heading down south, it seems like we are perilously close to shit really going down, although I'm sure the show will pull back before things get too bloody. 

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Sheeeid, this sound like The Talk we have today.

It very much is The Talk. Same words in the same order.

Edited November 14, 2023 by AntFTW

[Tango64]

8 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

George's strategy was to buy the union leader off.  It didn't work.

Yes, but that could have been more effective if he had met the guy in a reasonable neutral setting, like just a normal restaurant, rather than rubbing the poor guy's nose in his opulence and confirming his villainous image. I call it a misstep.

[iMonrey]

2 hours ago, Tango64 said:

So George's strategy was to bring the union rep fighting for the poor working man to his luxurious home, treat him to a lavish luncheon, show off all his ostentatious lifestyle... and confirm the guy's impression that George is just an out-of-touch asshole who doesn't care about anyone else as long as he can live like this?

He thought he could buy the guy off by offering him a managerial position and a higher salary. Letting him get a taste of "the good life" was probably part of the plan.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

I don't really care about the George vs. the Union plot, but I think it's rather tone deaf of George to invite the Union guy to his massive massive home and then claim he can't afford to pay the workers more.  I was really hoping that there would be a compromise there - that George wouldn't be a 100% robber baron asshole, and would be just a tiny bit progressive for the time.  Maybe agree with Union guy on the safety issues, and become a leader in the industry for that.  I'd rather see George battle the other corporate men on something like that than George vs. the union. 

 

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

It was tone deaf and very not savy for his negotiation goals. But I don't believe George said he couldn't afford to pay more. He said it would upend the market. Which may have been more of the "If we raise minimum wage, burgers at McDonalds will be $10!!!!" (Which of course they end up being anyway because shareholders), essentially a similar argument to "I can't afford it" in that its implying the costs HAVE to be passed into the market rather than absorbed by the obscenely wealthy employer. But he didn't just flattly that he couldn't' afford it. He tried to obscure it.

As for a compromise, this show is a soap opera for sure. But it's not a fairy tale. Making George a robber baron with a heart of gold would be too far I think even for Julian Fellowes.  Besides, making rich people a little terrible is how he convinces himself he is not simply a product of them.

 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think this is what Fellowes is going for, because he loves his rich folks, but it made me wonder if Turner and George were twins here. He's got everything he wants, but can't help but screw over his workers because nobody can win but him, and that's going to cause him more headaches. Just like Turner can't just take her own winnings and let Bertha exist. Just as the workers haven't done anything to him--they've helped him, in fact, just as Bertha was good to Turner here--they have to be assholes and start a war.

Not that Bertha isn't like this too, but she's not crushing people just to crush them--she's putting her opera thing above getting revenge on Turner in this ep.

 

2 hours ago, Tango64 said:

So George's strategy was to bring the union rep fighting for the poor working man to his luxurious home, treat him to a lavish luncheon, show off all his ostentatious lifestyle... and confirm the guy's impression that George is just an out-of-touch asshole who doesn't care about anyone else as long as he can live like this?

Well done, George.

While trying to buy the union man wasn't a stupid idea, inviting him home certainly was. The poor man certainluy thought: one piece of furniture here probably cost more than our yearly salaries put together.

On the other hand, it's capitalism, so George don't pay more to his workers than his rivals do to theirs. And because there are plenty of immigrants, there is no shortage of labor and therefore no need to pay more. For the same reason I am afraid that the strike can't succeed.  

[Roseanna]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:54 PM, sistermagpie said:

And his bragging that "only" 20 people died building the Brooklyn Bridge. Weird flex!

He said that "Life is dangerous", but I don't think he doen't use medicical inventions that help him and his family to live longer and healthier. 

Instead, his workers are compensable to his firm, although they too have a family to whom their death is not only a tragedy but a financial catastrophe.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

He lied about it to begin with, so she doesn't know with certainty what happened, she knows what he said happened.  A sentence like this has your petty rival ready to respond with:  what makes you think he threw me out?  Now you look smug and dumb and lied to some more...in front of your husband's strumpet.  Nope.

George didn't lie to Bertha, he only didn't tell her about Turner's "offer". I am sure that Bertha knows her husband so well that she can trust him to tell the truth now whereas she has no cause to trust Turner.  

If Bertha had doubted George, she would have certainly said so. But she regarded as a betrayal that he hadn't told the incident but let Turner be near to her and touch her, see he naked by dressing and undressing her.

Thinking anew, I understand Bertha more. Let's image your best friend had made a pass on your husband and he didn't tell it to you. It's much worse than if a woman you don't know does the same. Turner owed loyalty to her mistress.

[sistermagpie]

On George bringing the union rep to his house, I can see two reasons he might have done it, strategically. First, it's private, so it the guy gets on board there's no witnesses to see them getting friendly. Second, he may have felt like all that wealth would be intimidating. It shows his power and resources.

[kristen111]

So, George turned Turner down and sent her out of his bed.  I doubt any husband would tell his wife as nothing happened as there would be an instant fiasco.  The thought that Turner would still accommodate Bertha never entered his mind.  Poor guy.  Either way, he got screwed.  

 

 

 

[buckboard]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:12 PM, Meedis said:

Or worse the handsome publisher may wind up being lynched trying to save her.   Guess we shall see.

You never know what turn a fictional story will take, but the publisher was a real person who lived until 1928, so hopefully they'll stick to reality.

[Roseanna]

One thing we haven't discussed yet: Marian offered to go with her pupil, the daughter of Agnes's relative to the school's "mother and daughter" happening. Very heartfelt from her, but is she so naive that she doesn't understand what kind of message she sends to the widowed father and via the girl's classmates to the society at large?

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

One thing we haven't discussed yet: Marian offered to go with her pupil, the daughter of Agnes's relative to the school's "mother and daughter" happening. Very heartfelt from her, but is she so naive that she doesn't understand what kind of message she sends to the widowed father and via the girl's classmates to the society at large?

That reminds me, which I don't believe I mentioned before... Agnes said she received a letter from Dashiell that he had taken an interest in Marian.

[RachelKM]

11 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

One thing we haven't discussed yet: Marian offered to go with her pupil, the daughter of Agnes's relative to the school's "mother and daughter" happening. Very heartfelt from her, but is she so naive that she doesn't understand what kind of message she sends to the widowed father and via the girl's classmates to the society at large?

I forgot about this. You're absolutely right.  I was already anticipating a Anne Shirley/Emmaline Harris situation. But it seems like Marian is inadvertently encouraging that even more than I expected. Even Anne pretty much stuck to a big sisterly vibe in her interactions with Emmaline. 

9 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

That reminds me, which I don't believe I mentioned before... Agnes said she received a letter from Dashiell that he had taken an interest in Marian.

Poor dude. Little does he know that seeking Agnes's support, assistance, or even input is the surest way to pique Marian's vague but persistent contrarian impulses.  

[Nedsdag]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:56 PM, iMonrey said:

He thought he could buy the guy off by offering him a managerial position and a higher salary. Letting him get a taste of "the good life" was probably part of the plan.

This sounds very much like It's a Wonderful Life when Potter offers George Bailey a job when he sees the broken-down Bailey Building and Loan as a threat. 

As mentioned previously, Oscar Wilde was a tall man. This guy looks like Cousin Larry from the show Perfect Strangers with an Anglo accent and a lisp. Ironically, I'm watching The Morning Show, and one of the better Oscar Wilde portrayers, Stephen Fry, is a guest star this season.

Based on the preview for Sunday's show, it looks like Larry could be in for a rude awakening with Mrs. Blane. How long before Marian and him begin the dance to an engagement? And if Julian and Co. are truly keeping it real, it looks like the Duke of Buckingham may end up being a possible suitor for Gladys a la Consuelo Vanderbilt. And we all know how that ended.

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

That reminds me, which I don't believe I mentioned before... Agnes said she received a letter from Dashiell that he had taken an interest in Marian.

Heck. Maybe it's the wine, but remind me who Dashiell is.

[Salacious Kitty]

5 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Heck. Maybe it's the wine, but remind me who Dashiell is.

Agnes's cousin/nephew/some relative. 

[chitowngirl]

14 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Heck. Maybe it's the wine, but remind me who Dashiell is.

 

8 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Agnes's cousin/nephew/some relative. 

And he’s the widower with the daughter that takes the painting class with Marion. 

[oceanblue]

ok I'm astonished that no one else has mentioned the soup.  SOUP.  AT.  LUNCH.  How is it possible that we made it to the 20th century, let alone the 21st, when the Van Reign's were forced to endure SOUP.  AT.  LUNCH..   

[Athena5217]

1 hour ago, oceanblue said:

ok I'm astonished that no one else has mentioned the soup.  SOUP.  AT.  LUNCH.  How is it possible that we made it to the 20th century, let alone the 21st, when the Van Reign's were forced to endure SOUP.  AT.  LUNCH..   

Agnes was strengthened by the hardship of having the footman serve her lunch last season so the soup wasn’t as fatal as it might have been.

I am hoping to see her dine at the Russell’s this season. I would love to see her reaction to an unpaired fork and colored glasses.

[norcalgal]

On 11/13/2023 at 1:59 PM, RachelKM said:

This is true. But no one, and certainly not a journalist, should take risks without fully understanding what the risks are and how to operate within them. 

 It's not readily apparent whether Peggy truly understands the specific risk she would be taking.  She has undoubtedly experienced racism in her life. But people being rude and/or condescending or denying you service in a shop (or simply knowing not to go into certain shops to begin with) is not the same as risking murder with eye contact.  And it seems that Peggy has been (and bless the Scotts for good parenting on this front) mostly shielded from the harshest forms of racism. 

Also, and this is just speculation on my part, but as a person who has experienced a type of ethnic bigotry but been reasonably privileged within my own minority, I can say there is a bit of a tendency of the privileged within a minority to either minimize the realities others in their group may experience or view themselves as apart from and possibly immune to those harsher forms of racism.  Some part of her brain may just assume that being a Northern, well off black woman who was clearly educated in both classic schooling and etiquette would set her apart and exempt her from the worst of it. It's possible that with some people it might. But for the worst racists, her polish could itself stoke their ire that she's above herself or setting herself above them. 

Just ITA to this entire post.  And as someone else posted, Peggy probably *thinks* she knows the risks involved in going to the Deep South, but until you actually experience it, you don’t really know. 
 

[AntFTW]

On 11/14/2023 at 7:11 AM, Roseanna said:

I think the crux of the matter is: why did Turner mention the duke? Only a very stupid person wouldn't have anticipated how Bertha would react. 

To be fair, it was actually Mrs. Fish’s big mouth that mentioned the Duke. Mrs. Fish mentioned he was coming to the USA. Turner adds that they are going to receive him but Mrs. Fish mentions it first. Then, later Bertha sees it in the newspaper which ship he’s arriving on.

Edited November 16, 2023 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, AntFTW said:

To be fair, it was actually Mrs. Fish’s big mouth that mentioned the Duke. Mrs. Fish mentioned was coming to the USA. Turner adds that they are going to receive him but Mrs. Fish mentions it first. Then, later Bertha sees it in the newspaper which ship he’s arriving on.

Thank you for correction.

[Roseanna]

18 hours ago, Nedsdag said:

How long before Marian and him begin the dance to an engagement? 

I wouldn't like that. 

Larry is far too young to marry. With that I don't mean his age but lack of an adult mind. He wanted to become an architect, but to him it seems to be a hobby than a real profession. He still lives in his parent's house and on his father's money. If he were earnest, he would now be studying hard for years in the US and in Europe. His exclamation that he wanted to declare his love to the whole world shows that he doesn't understand anything about the world he lives in.

Also, when he in the previous season told his father that he wanted to become an architect, he also assumed that he and Gladys would after his father's death to live on the money of his father's company who would then be led by somebody else. It would good to him if there happened to be a nephew or a cousin to whom Mr Russell would leave most of his fortune after he would prove be worthy of it. Also a son-in-law would do and it's odd that Russells have no such plans after Larry said no.   

In short, Larry needs a rough awakening - and it's better to come now than later. 

[lucindabelle]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:15 AM, Kleav said:

That’s quite a claim!

I don’t make it lightly. He had courted several women, had had zero experience, and homosexuality was not openly discussed. Again- his first experience by his own and ALL accounts was after he married.  However, I’m not a mind reader so who knows what he really knew. All I can say is there’s no evidence that he knew. He had no model for homosexuality besides Ancient Greece and for sure he was a bit obsessed with Ancient Greece and wrote Greek tags to his poem and often described women he thought pretty as being slim hipped and Greek.  

 

 

21 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

ce”. 
 

 

The notion that he had “gaydar” at a party while he was in the throes of courting Constance Lloyd and had not one homosexual in his acquaintance (by every account) is a little silly- if he HAD noticed I doubt he’d have indicated by even a raised eyebrow. Again, by all accounts he was not part of any homosexual set yet.

 

LATER sure. Fast forward to 1893 and fine.- he knew rent boys and had a whole circle.

1883? No.

Edited November 17, 2023 by lucindabelle

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

The notion that he had “gaydar” at a party while he was in the throes of courting Constance Lloyd and had not one homosexual in his acquaintance (by every account) is a little silly- if he HAD noticed I doubt he’d have indicated by even a raised eyebrow. Again, by all accounts he was not part of any homosexual set yet.

 

I guess this might come down to what Fellowes things on the show, though. If we're being sloppy, most people today think of OW as gay, and they specifically had him comment on Oscar and John Adams, so we'll see if he was trying to do that with his OW or not, I guess.

[Kleav]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

I’m not a mind reader so who knows what he really knew

Exactly.

[lucindabelle]

Slight correction: VERA is not written in verse- that would be THE DUCHESS IF PADUA, which was equally bad and ran for three weeks. But that one was produced in January, and VERA in august. So clearly it’s august.

interestingly VERA got one review that praised it to the skies while all the others hated it (I had to check Wikipedia). Poor Hoskie.

[RachelKM]

Something I forgot to mention. It's sort of unimportant, but stuck in my head.  In the first episode of the season. I could swear that Marian said she only taught on Thursdays. 

But then in the subsequent episodes people keep asking if Marian can be gone for a long weekend (tennis tournament) and an evening at a play because of her teaching duties.  Did I miss something?  Is she now working at the school daily?

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

Something I forgot to mention. It's sort of unimportant, but stuck in my head.  In the first episode of the season. I could swear that Marian said she only taught on Thursdays. 

But then in the subsequent episodes people keep asking if Marian can be gone for a long weekend (tennis tournament) and an evening at a play because of her teaching duties.  Did I miss something?  Is she now working at the school daily?

I thought agnes was making a huge point of it, while deliberately not respecting the details. Howeverbit sounds as if Marian was also helping at other times. 

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

Something I forgot to mention. It's sort of unimportant, but stuck in my head.  In the first episode of the season. I could swear that Marian said she only taught on Thursdays. 

But then in the subsequent episodes people keep asking if Marian can be gone for a long weekend (tennis tournament) and an evening at a play because of her teaching duties.  Did I miss something?  Is she now working at the school daily?

It's not just you.  I noticed the same thing, and it came up more than once this episode.  It's either sloppy writing or Marion's duties/scheduling at school have expanded. 

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Something I forgot to mention. It's sort of unimportant, but stuck in my head.  In the first episode of the season. I could swear that Marian said she only taught on Thursdays. 

But then in the subsequent episodes people keep asking if Marian can be gone for a long weekend (tennis tournament) and an evening at a play because of her teaching duties.  Did I miss something?  Is she now working at the school daily?

It also sounds like Marian bring her work home so it's possible that her work extends beyond the time she physically spends at school.

[Sarah 103]

 

On 11/12/2023 at 10:40 PM, Straycat80 said:

I’m shipping  Ada and the Rev to get together. I think Agnes is jealous. Wait until she finds out they’ve seen each other behind her back.

I'm shipping them too. I think they're a perfect couple and they'd be good for each other. 

On 11/12/2023 at 10:58 PM, AntFTW said:

Turner must have really liked this other servant to keep in touch with him and tell him the details of how she met Mr. Joshua Winterton.

I think part of it is the human desire to have someone to tell good news to. Since she did not have close friends and may no longer be in touch with family, he was the best option. 

On 11/13/2023 at 2:14 PM, Affogato said:

Larry is having a fantastic adventure in Newport, if he can manage not to mess it up. Also, classic. Widow and virgin thing.

I think the problem is going to be she wants a (summer) fling, and he is going to want marriage and a real future with her. 

On 11/13/2023 at 8:24 PM, kristen111 said:

Tina.   Couldn’t resist.

I get the joke, but a given name of Christina with Tina as a nickname sounds plausible. 

On 11/13/2023 at 9:26 PM, sistermagpie said:

But nobody has the natural authority of a Carson or the housekeeper at Downton. Maybe that's part of it, that the younger members of the staff just don't seem to have any natural respect for others in the staff, because they don't have the same cultural history.

I think that's it. The younger servants do not see this as the rest of their life. They are aware that they have options. I think Jack has far loftier expectations/dreams than any of the others. 

On 11/14/2023 at 12:14 PM, sugarbaker design said:

I like the fact that George Russell is a doting husband, protective and loving father, yet is also a 100% robber baron asshole.  Such an interesting character.

He is ruthless. We've seen it dealing with the world of high society, especially the women, but we haven't seen it in his professional capacity yet. 

On 11/14/2023 at 1:20 PM, Tango64 said:

So George's strategy was to bring the union rep fighting for the poor working man to his luxurious home, treat him to a lavish luncheon, show off all his ostentatious lifestyle... and confirm the guy's impression that George is just an out-of-touch asshole who doesn't care about anyone else as long as he can live like this?

No, the plan was to show him the wealth and power George had and if the union man played ball, some of this could be his. George didn't count on the union man having ideals, principles, and being a real believer in a cause. 

On 11/15/2023 at 2:52 PM, RachelKM said:

Poor dude. Little does he know that seeking Agnes's support, assistance, or even input is the surest way to pique Marian's vague but persistent contrarian impulses.  

Unless Agnes knows the best thing to do if she wants the relationship/marriage to happen is to discourage Marian. 

Also, I think Marian works better when she is not in plot lines of her own but tagged into other people's stories. Less time spent on Marian and more time spent on other character's plot lines makes for a much more enjoyable and better series. 

[ofmd]

Where do y'all get the impression Larry is hopelessly in love, let alone a virgin? I feel I'm missing something... Maybe a rewatch is in order.

[Salacious Kitty]

23 minutes ago, ofmd said:

Where do y'all get the impression Larry is hopelessly in love, let alone a virgin? I feel I'm missing something... Maybe a rewatch is in order.

He talked about wanting to shout about their relationship from the rooftops. Mrs. Blaine calmed him down without putting him down. She essentially admitted in the same conversation that she's just in this for a summer fling. However, Larry was so starry eyed that he didn't even catch it.

[RachelKM]

50 minutes ago, ofmd said:

Where do y'all get the impression Larry is hopelessly in love, let alone a virgin? I feel I'm missing something... Maybe a rewatch is in order.

 

24 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

He talked about wanting to shout about their relationship from the rooftops. Mrs. Blaine calmed him down without putting him down. She essentially admitted in the same conversation that she's just in this for a summer fling. However, Larry was so starry eyed that he didn't even catch it.

Yeah, I don't know about the virgin part, but I also saw that scene as indicating Larry was at minimum infatuated. And I do think he's inexperienced in relationships.

[Salacious Kitty]

Larry knows about prostitutes, so he's not totally innocent. But it's unclear whether he was a virgin. But I concur, he's inexperienced with women of his own class. 

[ofmd]

Ah, I get it. If I saw that dialog on paper, I would agree. Maybe it's his acting that doesn't signal "in love" to me, but also the fact that due to double standards, a gentleman wouldn't marry a woman who he'd had sex with (that brazen hussy!) pre-marriage. At least I think so, maybe I'm wrong.

Infatuated, I think yes.

Edited November 19, 2023 by ofmd

[peeayebee]

There's nothing like a first love.

[ZaldamoWilder]

On 11/14/2023 at 5:05 PM, Roseanna said:

George didn't lie to Bertha, he only didn't tell her about Turner's "offer". I am sure that Bertha knows her husband so well that she can trust him to tell the truth now whereas she has no cause to trust Turner.  

If Bertha had doubted George, she would have certainly said so. But she regarded as a betrayal that he hadn't told the incident but let Turner be near to her and touch her, see he naked by dressing and undressing her.

Thinking anew, I understand Bertha more. Let's image your best friend had made a pass on your husband and he didn't tell it to you. It's much worse than if a woman you don't know does the same. Turner owed loyalty to her mistress.

Admittedly, I'm personalizing my opinion.  This is a debate within my immediate circle of bosoms that either ends in laughter or profanity or both.  Omission is a/the lie.  I'll see myself out 🙃. 

[Affogato]

On 11/19/2023 at 4:07 PM, RachelKM said:

 

Yeah, I don't know about the virgin part, but I also saw that scene as indicating Larry was at minimum infatuated. And I do think he's inexperienced in relationships.

Gladys was raised by Bertha, but so was Larry. I suspect Larry had a shorter leash than most of his contemporaries. 

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Gladys was raised by Bertha, but so was Larry. I suspect Larry had a shorter leash than most of his contemporaries. 

I like this theory. Because Bertha cared so much about getting a place in society and wanting to rise through the ranks, it makes sense that she would not want her son doing something that would damage the family name or cause a scandal. 

[Roseanna]

On 11/20/2023 at 1:00 AM, ofmd said:

If I saw that dialog on paper, I would agree. Maybe it's his acting that doesn't signal "in love" to me

I don't think the dialog on paper would be any proof. Actors are actors just because saying ILY can have dozens of different meanings (subtext). And it's a good sign that we watchers have different interpretations. 

As for Larry, he said it in bed after making love. I guess he meant it, i.e. that he felt it in that moment and even that he had begun to feel it sometime during their relationship. But was it love that can be based the marriage on? They enjoyed sex and each others company but what else they had common? She seemed jealous even of Marian - how would she reacted when he wouldn't be constantly by her side but designing the interior for some other lady?  

[Scarlett45]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:59 PM, RachelKM said:

Some part of her brain may just assume that being a Northern, well off black woman who was clearly educated in both classic schooling and etiquette would set her apart and exempt her from the worst of it. It's possible that with some people it might. But for the worst racists, her polish could itself stoke their ire that she's above herself or setting herself above them. 

I agree @RachelKM. I said to my Mom as we watched this episode, did Peggy have any “plain” clothes to wear. Her dresses and hats are so nice she’s going to stick out like a sore thumb and attract the wrong kind of attention. I am terrified for her. 

[Scarlett45]

On 11/23/2023 at 8:15 PM, Sarah 103 said:

I like this theory. Because Bertha cared so much about getting a place in society and wanting to rise through the ranks, it makes sense that she would not want her son doing something that would damage the family name or cause a scandal. 

I don’t think Larry is necessarily a virgin but I could see him never being in love or having had a serious courtship. He is getting older-I can see him wanting to be with someone. Also like Gladys he was raised by parents who were a love match and still hot for each other, I could see him wanting that for himself. 

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Also like Gladys he was raised by parents who were a love match and still hot for each other, I could see him wanting that for himself. 

Bertha and George aren't only hot for each others, they are equal partners who respect each other, have common values (except perhaps about their children's marriage) and help each other to reach their goals.