S02.E03: Head to Head

[AntFTW]

Quote

As the opera war heats up, an unlikely guest attends Bertha’s Met fundraiser, while Agnes backs Mrs. Astor’s effort to preserve the Academy’s dominance. Meanwhile, Peggy offers to travel with Mr. Fortune to Alabama to cover a story about the Tuskegee Institute, Ada organizes a special luncheon for Mr. Forte, George attempts to sway Henderson, and Watson considers an offer.

Air date: November 12, 2023

[AntFTW]

1) Agnes took me out! 😂

Marian: I stayed to help rearrange a class room.

Agnes: So you're moving furniture now?

Also Agnes: Is there any money? We're all family, I think we know Oscar's priorities.

  😂  😂  😂

Nathan Lane crossing the street!   😂

2) Turner's threatening to reveal what she did in the Russell house (with some false implications) to prevent Bertha from revealing that she used to be a maid. That's one motivation I didn't think about. Interesting.

I think that's a threat with no teeth but... we'll see. Assuming Bertha reveals Turner's former status, would Turner really want to reveal that info to anyone?

If I'm Bertha... now that I know what I know, there is nothing preventing me from telling people that Turner used to be a maid (my maid) unless she takes a box at the new opera house.

3) What a fucked up offer that McNeil gave to Collyer.

[peridot]

I should have known that Turner would exaggerate to get under Bertha's skin.  I don't blame Bertha for being upset - George's smug calmness would have pissed me off too.

I think Peggy is making a big mistake traveling to Alabama, not only traveling by herself with a married man but also traveling to a place where you're not considered human.  Her mother's warnings made me anxious for next week.

Are Oscar Wilde's plays known to be boring? I thought he was popular in his time.  Does Aurora really not know that her cousin is gay?  Even Oscar Wilde pointed out his relationship with Adams.  I think she's aware about McAllister.

The valet's tale is heartbreaking.  His family would really exile him to across the country??

Edited November 13, 2023 by peridot

[AntFTW]

Just now, peridot said:

I think Peggy is making a big mistake traveling to Alabama, not only traveling by herself with a married man but also traveling to a place where you're not considered human.  Her mother's warnings made me anxious for next week.

I know she didn't want to hear it but she should've listened to her mama! 😩

[nilyank]

20 minutes ago, peridot said:

Are Oscar Wilde's plays known to be boring? I thought he was popular in his time. 

I don't know but that particular performance seemed badly acted. 

 

[chitowngirl]

And we still don’t know Turner’s first name!😆

[Straycat80]

I’m shipping  Ada and the Rev to get together. I think Agnes is jealous. Wait until she finds out they’ve seen each other behind her back.

This will be an interesting cat fight between Bertha and Turner. All the Russell staff know Turner used to be a ladies maid, they’ve already started gossiping, it’s bound to reach the ears of the other upper class ladies. 
I’m nervous for Peggy to go South. 
Fun seeing Oscar Wilde. I just saw his grave when I was in Paris last Spring. There was a glass enclosure around the grave, women, and maybe men because he was gay, put lipstick on and kiss the glass. 
How sad that Collyer might have to move away just because McNeil doesn’t want people to know his father-in-law is considered a ruined man. 

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

And we still don’t know Turner’s first name!😆

I said that last episode that we may get to learn her first name. It doesn't seem like we are any closer to that. 😂

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, peridot said:

Are Oscar Wilde's plays known to be boring? I thought he was popular in his time.  Does Aurora really not know that her cousin is gay?  Even Oscar Wilde pointed out his relationship with Adams.  I think she's aware about McAllister.

 

Oscar Wilde's plays are definitely not known to be boring--which is probably why this one's rarely done. It was the first one of his performed, according to Wikipedia, and closed after a week. No surprise.

Most of plays, at least the ones I've seen, aren't tragedies, though. It seems like that's what they were hinting at. Basically people saying, "Wow, the play's terrible but he's hilarious in person..." Iow, he'll be a hit when he starts writing plays that are more like himself.

I can understand why Bertha's mad a George, certainly, but if I were her I'd at least look forward to telling Turner how embarassing it must have been for her to get naked and then get thrown out of bed. 

The Colyer girl seems to have inherited her family's heartlessness. Turns out the guy didn't do anything wrong except be a loser. Which is a perfectly good reason to divorce him, I guess, but the way they're treating him makes me want them to get found out. 

I am so rooting for Ada and the minister. I find his Boston accent endearing--no idea if it's well-done or not, but it's not aggressive or distracting, but still a nice character note. As soon as they brought out the soup I knew this was no soup, it was chowdah! I wonder why he hasn't married. Seems like he was trying to make some sort of point with that story about the painting. But I suppose he also doesn't have much money? 

[iMonrey]

Has anyone else noticed the soft focus this show employs in a lot of scenes? I was particularly distracted by the scene with Marian and Peggy in Marian's bedroom when Peggy was telling Marian about her trip to Alabama. The bottom of the screen was blurry, and then I kept noticing it in other scenes. It's not in every scene though. It seems like an arbitrary choice.

I thought Oscar Wilde's portrayal was a little over the top, but amusing nonetheless.

How can Cynthia Nixon play such an endearing character on this show, and such an objectionable one on "And Just Like That"?

[AntFTW]

Turner must have really liked this other servant to keep in touch with him and tell him the details of how she met Mr. Joshua Winterton.

[Popples]

4 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Turner must have really liked this other servant to keep in touch with him and tell him the details of how she met Mr. Joshua Winterton.

The Thomas Barrow to her O'Brien, perhaps? I hope he sticks around and wasn't just for exposition in that one scene.

[Straycat80]

4 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Turner must have really liked this other servant to keep in touch with him and tell him the details of how she met Mr. Joshua Winterton.

Or maybe she’ll be in cahoots with him to learn dirt on the Russell’s to further her social status and stick it to Bertha? 

[AntFTW]

8 minutes ago, Popples said:

The Thomas Barrow to her O'Brien, perhaps?

I'm sorry. Help me out. I don't know what this means. ☺️

[Straycat80]

2 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I'm sorry. Help me out. I don't know what this means. ☺️

You would have had to have watched Downton Abbey to understand .

[lucindabelle]

Oscar Wilde did not know he was gay in 1883- by ALL accounts his first homosexual experience was with Robbie Ross after he was married. He gets married in 1884, one year after this. 
 

the green carnation was NOT a symbol of homosexuality yet. Also Wilde was a VERY big guy not in the least effeminate with a hearty laugh.

the play we saw was VERA, or THE NIHILISTS, heavily influenced by Ibsen, and in verse. It was a flop. Oscar was a poet and a socialist and he wrote that play very sincerely. Also during this period he was known as an “aesthete,” and was known for wearing britches and being a bit affected and carrying a lily. But this is not the same as effeminate. If you’ve read his fairytales for children, the poetic Christianity and spirituality is the side of him he poured into VERA. As you see it didn’t appeal. 

the drawing room comedies will be next.  They too are Ibsenesque in that there’s always a hidden secret and a moral but whole acts go by where people just talk LOL.

anyway that was a poorly cast Oscar and poorly written too. Julian didn’t do homosexuality in period for Downton abbey either remember how unfazed EVERYBODY was about Thomas? Well after Oscar died they were still chiseling his name OFF of schools and playbills- homosexuality was considered as morally abhorrent. A bit the way we look at pedophiles (and I’m not suggesting that pedophiles will someday be accepted or drawing ANY equivalence except that people could simply not accept it). 
 

that said it is true that lots of aristocratic men had had homosexual experiences in boarding schools so you have to wonder if some of that shock was feigned.

 

long digression just to write about Oscar, my boo. LOL. I wrote about him when I applied to college and discussed his poetry and philosophy (he wrote “the soul of man under socialism”) and I like to say he got me into Stanford.

 

while I didn’t like the casting I do think it was a nice touch to have VERA- but they should have given the title or somehow clued people in that this was his first play that flopped. I mean there was one line that he was good at talking but maybe just to help out the audience something like why don’t you write a play with YOUR talk in it. Or something.

 

because yes he will go on to be HUGELY popular with several plays running at once, a real talk of the town…

[lucindabelle]

I visited Oscars grave when I graduated from high school in the 80s, I remember the guards wi th maps saying Jim Morrison? Jim Morrison? 
it wasn’t in glass then- in the 80s he wasn’t on m mugs and tote bags yet. There were only a few biographies and I’d read them all many many times. Not like now, I don’t know if one could read all the biographies now. I stopped keeping up a while back. We’re at the point where we now have revisionist biographies too. 
 

like lots of gay men Oscar did marry and it was a love match, he had two children. I met one of the grandchildren (also in the 80s) when the collected letters were published. 
 

oscar was no witty Noel Coward fun at parties gay sidekick- I recommend the poems and fairy tales if you don’t know them! 

[Popples]

19 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I'm sorry. Help me out. I don't know what this means. ☺️

Ms. O'Brien was the lady's maid to the mistress of the house and Thomas Barrow was a footman turned under-butler on Downton Abbey, and they used to be awful and scheme together.

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

while I didn’t like the casting I do think it was a nice touch to have VERA- but they should have given the title or somehow clued people in that this was his first play that flopped. I mean there was one line that he was good at talking but maybe just to help out the audience something like why don’t you write a play with YOUR talk in it. Or something.

 

I thought they made that pretty clear. If you know the name Oscar Wilde at all, then you're not expecting something taking place in Russia that's obviously a tragedy, so having the person saying he's witty in person, followed by him making jokes at the party...I thought it was setting up just that idea.

Except for the fact that it seemed like people already knew who he was, but why would they when it was his first play? Or were they just saying his name so we could hear it and it was awkwardly written? Or was he already known as a writer before that? I have read some of his fairy tales, but it doesn't seem like that would get people talking the way they seemed to be in the episode.

[lucindabelle]

Yes he was known as being a wit, kind of like famous for being famous. He was an up-and-coming young man, and he had done a tour with speaking engagements promoting the Gilbert and Sullivan play Patience, which had a poet, Bunthorne, that was part of that same aesthetic movement. Oscar gave talks about aesthetic decoration and women’s dress and things like that.

 

he famously said he had “nothing to declare except my genius.”

so that probably convinced investors to back VERA the following year… (I’d say he was like a Kardashian but it was more substantive- somewhere between a Paris Hilton and an actual author).

im glad the line did work for you- I was afraid it might be too confusing.

but again- Oscar being such a GIANT man was such a big part of his persona- his children remembered him that way- and it worked against the Bunthorne “type” of the wheezing, delicate aesthete. Oh well.

I really liked the way he was portrayed in LILLIE by Peter Egan (1978, fab PBS series about Lillie Langtry)

 

he played the marquess of flint shire in Downton Abbey. A big guy, very masculine, twinkle in his eye…

Edited November 13, 2023 by lucindabelle

[lucindabelle]

[txhorns79]

I absolutely loved the maid seeing Turner at the Russell house, having an "OMG!" moment, then running off to gossip to the other servants, probably loving every moment of being the one with the hottest goss these people have heard since their French chef turned out to be from Kansas City.  

I really also enjoy Cynthia Nixon in her role.  Her scheming was Marian was so lovely, and it tells you so much about her life that she can't even be gone a couple of hours on her own without letting Agnes know (and probably getting her permission to go).

And yeah, Peggy is super-naive about going South.  Her mother was right.  I just hope nothing awful happens. 

[lucindabelle]

I can’t imagine Turner could possibly keep this a secret. Not the way Agnes and others are always going “his mother was a this or a that.” Is she making up a backstory? It all seems a little far fetched. 

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

I can’t imagine Turner could possibly keep this a secret. Not the way Agnes and others are always going “his mother was a this or a that.” Is she making up a backstory? It all seems a little far fetched. 

I imagine that there is a handful of people that could recognize Turner, most notably one of them is Oscar.

[Snazzy Daisy]

JEJUNE??!

Agnes cannot believe Ada knows a thing or two about watercolorist. Soup for luncheon? More wine please… 😆

Next time Agnes seeing Reverend Forte…🤣🤣🤣

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Snazzy Daisy

[RachelKM]

Jesus, Turner is DUMB. She gets her back up assuming Bertha is going to blackmail her into purchasing a Met box and, even though Turner has already thrown a jab at her, Bertha decides to play nice. Instead of taking the goddamned win from a woman who can absolutely destroy her, she decides to launch another attack, this time going low while also lying. She probably knows Bertha well enough to know exactly how it would play out, Bertha believing George but PISSED he didn't tell her, and that was enough motivation to launch a war.

She appears to be stupid and/or overconfident enough to believe the money and the connection to OLD money though her husband puts her above Bertha. Which, if nothing else is consistent characterization - bitch couldn't read a situation or form an coherent plan last season either. But, while she might know some things that could possibly undermine Bertha, marriage to old money or no, Turner's past will utterly sink her with the Old Money set if it gets out. She doesn't seem to understand she remains in a vulnerable position and her secrets are more socially damning than anything she might know about Bertha. 

Also seemingly overconfident is Mrs. Blaine.  I don't begrudge her some fun after what sounds to have been a soul crushingly boring marriage. But "I plan to have my cake and eat it too" seems like a set up for a fall.  And this is Julian Fellowes, so there will be no surprises. He basically just cribs outlines from period romance novels and embellishes with excellent quips delivered by the truly legendary talent he manages to recruit for his shows,

I am extremely nervous for Peggy. Heading into the post-Reconstruction "Redemption Era" South is every bit as risky as her mother warned.  She's heading into an entirely different world from what she's experienced growing up the daughter of a store owner in Brooklyn.

Edited November 13, 2023 by RachelKM

[Salacious Kitty]

Poor Larry. Mrs. Blaine is having a summer fling with a finite ending. 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

2) Turner's threatening to reveal what she did in the Russell house (with some false implications) to prevent Bertha from revealing that she used to be a maid. That's one motivation I didn't think about. Interesting.

I think that's a threat with no teeth but... we'll see. Assuming Bertha reveals Turner's former status, would Turner really want to reveal that info to anyone?

If I'm Bertha... now that I know what I know, there is nothing preventing me from telling people that Turner used to be a maid (my maid) unless she takes a box at the new opera house.

 

4 hours ago, peridot said:

I should have known that Turner would exaggerate to get under Bertha's skin.  I don't blame Bertha for being upset - George's smug calmness would have pissed me off too.

 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I can understand why Bertha's mad a George, certainly, but if I were her I'd at least look forward to telling Turner how embarassing it must have been for her to get naked and then get thrown out of bed. 

I think Bertha overreacts - yes, her husband made a mistake by not telling her, but his motivation was good: Bertha needed Turner to guide her in "old money" habits. It was *not* a betrayal. 

People often don't tell the truth because they want to spare feelings of those they love and if the truth is reavealed, the consequences are worse. 

But isn't it odd that we are discussing about George's very small *private* mistake when he revealed his ruthless character with the union man, not to speak of his opinion that "anyone can be bought" (which was true with "old money" men and wives in the first season).  

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

Jesus, Turner is DUMB. She get her back up assuming Bertha is going to blackmail her into purchasing a Met box and, even though Turner has already thrown a jab at her, Bertha decides to play nice. Instead of taking the goddamned win from a woman who can absolutely destroy her, she decides to launch another attack, this time going low while also lying. She probably knows Bertha well enough to know exactly how it would play out, Bertha believing George but PISSED he didn't tell her, and that was enough motivation to launch a war.

She appears to be stupid and/or overconfident enough to believe the money and the connection to OLD money though her husband puts her above Bertha. Which, if nothing else is consistent characterization - bitch couldn't read a situation or form an coherent plan last season either. But, while she might know some things that could possible undermine Bertha, marriage to only money or no, Turner's past will utterly sink her with the Old Money set if it gets out. She doesn't seem to understand she remains in a vulnerable position and her secrets are more socially damning than anything she might know about Bertha. 

If that was all, it was really "a tempest in the teacup". But what if Turner's "revelation" was only a read herring?

Spoiler

Wasn't there a teaser where Betha was disappointed with the duke? What if Turner mentioned the duke in order to lure Bertha into a trap? Turner knows Bertha's social ambition and competitiveness and can foresee that she will arrange a big party for the duke and even try to marry Gladys to him. If it's revealed that either he isn't a duke or there is some big fault in him, she will make herself a laughinstock in the society.  

In any case, Turner has bet on the wrong horse - in the long run Bertha will be the winner by backing Met.

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, peridot said:

Does Aurora really not know that her cousin is gay?  Even Oscar Wilde pointed out his relationship with Adams.  I think she's aware about McAllister.

I think that the scene made clear that while Oscar Wilde can read "small signs" in the interaction between Oscar and his former lover, Aurora can't. She was geunuinely at loss even about the code Wilder used.  

The reason she knows about Mr McAllister is because "everyone knows".  

Plus, she would hardly be so eager to arrange a good match for Oscar if she knew.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Roseanna
take out a letter

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

Soup for luncheon? 

That was a nice wink to the the scene in first season where Agnes's butler wondered to Russells' "French" cook who had planned to have soup for lunch. There were also differences in Britain and the US how cutlery is laid out on the table.

Both remarks showed the butler to be a snob although he did say in the end that "manners vary". 

Regarding Agnes, a sign of a really civilized lady is that if there are some deficiencies, she behaves as if she hadn't noticed anything and instead concentrates to make other people comfortable. 

But Agnes publicly snubbed her own sister - not once but twice (water color artist). The good side was that Ada showed to be capable to stand up for herself, while behaving completely politely and sweetly.

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

anyway that was a poorly cast Oscar and poorly written too. Julian didn’t do homosexuality in period for Downton abbey either remember how unfazed EVERYBODY was about Thomas? Well after Oscar died they were still chiseling his name OFF of schools and playbills- homosexuality was considered as morally abhorrent.

There crux of the matter was that Wilde was condemned in the court. Before that he was quite popular.

There were many famous men who were known to be homosexual. ColmTóibín's novel The Master decribes Henry James. 

[Haleth]

Yeah, any leak about Turner's former job will blow back more on Turner than it will Bertha.  Her husband will be terribly embarrassed.  Now Bertha has the leverage to get Turner to buy a box at the new opera.  I can't imagine Bertha will be mad at George for long, they are too good together.

The Russell's servants are going to talk.  Turner's secret is already exposed.

Oh, Peggy.  You are going to regret pushing to go to Alabama.  Listen to your mother.

For some reason I don't trust the minister.  I'm starting to think he's actually looking to use Ada as a way to woo Agnes and her money.  Maybe I'm just too cynical and he really does like Ada.

[Kleav]

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Oscar Wilde did not know he was gay in 1883

That’s quite a claim!

[AntFTW]

6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

She appears to be stupid and/or overconfident enough to believe the money and the connection to OLD money though her husband puts her above Bertha.

I think that Turner always thought she was above Bertha because Turner always seemed to think that she knew “Old New York” better than Bertha. If I recall correctly, while she was a lady’s maid, she spent most of the time thinking Bertha would fail to get in with Old New York.

Turner gave me the feeling that she thought that if she had a rich husband at the time, whether new money or old money, she would have been a more successful Old Money socialite.

[txhorns79]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think Bertha overreacts - yes, her husband made a mistake by not telling her, but his motivation was good: Bertha needed Turner to guide her in "old money" habits. It was *not* a betrayal. 

I think Bertha was right to feel betrayed in that Turner was intimately involved in her life, and George made her look foolish by allowing things to continue as though nothing had happened.  She also was made to look as though she had no idea what was going on in her own household when Turner brought it up during the luncheon.             

[Athena5217]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Yeah, any leak about Turner's former job will blow back more on Turner than it will Bertha.  Her husband will be terribly embarrassed.  Now Bertha has the leverage to get Turner to buy a box at the new opera.  I can't imagine Bertha will be mad at George for long, they are too good together.

The Russell's servants are going to talk.  Turner's secret is already exposed.

Oh, Peggy.  You are going to regret pushing to go to Alabama.  Listen to your mother.

For some reason I don't trust the minister.  I'm starting to think he's actually looking to use Ada as a way to woo Agnes and her money.  Maybe I'm just too cynical and he really does like Ada.

Last season there was a storyline with Ada’s suitor wanting money so I don’t think they will do that again. Plus, this is Robert Sean Leonard so I think the priest/ potential suitor is the real deal.

I agree with Peggy’s mom. Peggy faced prejudice everywhere in New York, but Alabama had lynchings. It is weird to have that storyline in the same show as the Met vs. Academy one.

I don’t think Turner is very smart. She badly misjudged how George would react to her seduction, and she has again failed to recognize the strength of the Russell’s marriage. Bertha is taking her down!

[Brn2bwild]

Another fun episode.  I find it hard to believe that in such a gossipy society, Turner could marry someone from old money and not generate any fuss or even curiosity.  Her husband surely would have had friends, family, or even neighbors who questioned the back story of "that woman" and did some investigating before they walked down the aisle.  Turner's history as a lady's maid in the old money world would have also likely caused some to recognize her origins. 

[Pop Tart]

1 hour ago, Athena5217 said:

I don’t think Turner is very smart. She badly misjudged how George would react to her seduction, and she has again failed to recognize the strength of the Russell’s marriage. Bertha is taking her down!

Agree on this. It allowed her to land a blow on Bertha in the moment, but will likely come back to haunt her.

Also agree with others she's being very short-sighted in her need to show up Bertha. She should never have come to an event at the Russells as it makes no matter if the Russell family keep her secret or not. As soon as the other servants see her the gossip is going to fly. 

She could have kept her previous identity secret much longer by not appearing anywhere where the people who knew her before would be (beyond the Russells). To the Russell servants the gossip about a new Mrs. Winterton (?) would mean nothing as long as they never saw her.

I sympathized with both Bertha and George in their fight. He did turn Turner away as soon as he realized so to his mind he had not betrayed Bertha. But to have a woman dressing you, doing your hair, giving you advice, etc. who had tried to sleep with your husband and you know nothing about it? Especially if you find out about it publicly from the venomous woman who was responsible? That would really hurt - especially as Bertha and George see themselves as a team.

[pasdetrois]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:58 PM, iMonrey said:

How can Cynthia Nixon play such an endearing character

I can't stand CN's acting these days. As Ada she speaks in a high-pitched old lady voice and bleats out inanities. Her sister's snark in response saves us. ("You're not a rector. It's not your place to bless anybody.")

Why is Peggy wearing expensive fussy silks to a grubby newspaper office? In real life her character would be wearing sensible plain cotton that is easily cleaned.

On 11/13/2023 at 9:41 AM, Athena5217 said:

Alabama had lynchings

And of course continued into the mid-20th century. Felowes, who loves to misrepresent American history, will have a field day with all the tropes. Prediction: Peggy will be endangered and handsome publisher will save her.

Edited November 18, 2023 by pasdetrois

[iMonrey]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

The Russell's servants are going to talk.  Turner's secret is already exposed.

This doesn't make much sense. Does Turner care about people finding out she was Bertha's Ladies Maid, or not? Because if she does care, the last place on earth she should have gone was back to the Russell house. She might be able to convince Bertha to keep quiet about it but yes - servants talk. They will recognize her and the word will spread like wildfire. Maybe she just doesn't care that word will get out, but she acted like she did.

3 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

I can't stand CN's acting these days. As Ada she speaks in a high-pitched old lady voice and bleats out inanities.

Maybe I just find her endearing compared to Miranda Hobbes. But she's also very sweet with Marian.

[ahpny]

12 hours ago, iMonrey said:

How can Cynthia Nixon play such an endearing character on this show, and such an objectionable one on "And Just Like That"?

Because whatever you think the characters she plays or her personal views on anything, many still think she's a pretty good actress.

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think that the scene made clear that while Oscar Wilde can read "small signs" in the interaction between Oscar and his former lover, Aurora can't

Clearly gaydar worked just fine 140 years ago too.

 

18 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I sympathized with both Bertha and George in their fight. He did turn Turner away as soon as he realized so to his mind he had not betrayed Bertha. But to have a woman dressing you, doing your hair, giving you advice, etc. who had tried to sleep with your husband and you know nothing about it?

Perhaps, but I think Bertha's stance is inappropriately and ahistorically projecting current sensibilities back to a time when relationships between husbands and wifes were different, especially for "robber baron" types of husbands. He has all the power and, from his perspective, did nothing wrong. In fact, many (most?) husbands in that era would not have turned down the offer. He did with no hesitation as soon as he realized who she was. I was surprised that he caved as he did to Bertha about his "mistake" - that seemed out of character for the supposedly tough guy that he is. Maybe this story tangent serves to cement and demonstrate the love he really does have for his wife.

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This doesn't make much sense. Does Turner care about people finding out she was Bertha's Ladies Maid, or not? Because if she does care, the last place on earth she should have gone was back to the Russell house.

I think she does care but it's not the top item on the priority list. We have come to know Turner as a petty character. She doesn't want people to know because she wishes to be among these people. However, she's also petty. I think she values her petty revenge even if it risks exposing her.

[retired watcher]

13 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

How can Cynthia Nixon play such an endearing character on this show, and such an objectionable one on "And Just Like That"?

Because she's a great actress.

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

Another fun episode.  I find it hard to believe that in such a gossipy society, Turner could marry someone from old money and not generate any fuss or even curiosity.  Her husband surely would have had friends, family, or even neighbors who questioned the back story of "that woman" and did some investigating before they walked down the aisle.  Turner's history as a lady's maid in the old money world would have also likely caused some to recognize her origins. 

One thing Turner had going for her was that people of the upper classes, particularly men, did not notice servants, at least not as individuals. In fact it was decidedly the point. And a lady's maid would have very little contact with guests.  So Turner would not be recognized by anyone unless, as others said above, she literally went to the one house where she would be recognized by EVERYONE.

As for investigating her, probably not.  Her husband is quite old and unlikely to do a lot of socializing. I doubt anyone was around to investigate.  And the limited amount of personal documentation for lower classes and lack of easy distance communication meant that it was not too hard to reinvent yourself even if someone were to inclined investigate.  

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This doesn't make much sense. Does Turner care about people finding out she was Bertha's Ladies Maid, or not? Because if she does care, the last place on earth she should have gone was back to the Russell house. She might be able to convince Bertha to keep quiet about it but yes - servants talk. They will recognize her and the word will spread like wildfire. Maybe she just doesn't care that word will get out, but she acted like she did.

Turner is extremely short sighted here; but that seems consistent with her general characterization.  She is petty and jealous of Bertha and resents what Turner considers an unfair elevation.

Her smug certainty that Bertha would fail in her bid to enter the social ruling class and her revelement in her apparent superiority in understanding that class seem to rule all of her decisions and actions in season one. Turner, in her way, is a prejudiced as Anges. But her prejudices are based in jealousy. Being lady's maid in a wealthy home was, for the working classes, a highly prized and sought after role. To have a merchant class wannabe with her roots in potato farming (no pun intended) elevated above her was something Turner seemed to resent personally.

So, yeah, it was dumb. But Turner couldn't resist the opportunity to rub in Bertha's face that she had done what Bertha still struggled with, made it into the old money crowd.  I'm sure she was also motivated by the opportunity to rub her elevated status in the faces of her former co-workers whom she always thought also beneath her.

The irony is, of course and hamfisted as it is, that she is literally sowing the seeds of her own humiliation with her inability to just not do the petty asshole thing.  She has very little impulse control when it comes to her jealousy and now that she (wrongly) considers herself invulnerable to the Russells, she's not even trying to act with restraint. 

It's kind of a bummer. She's so one note that it's boring.  She's just dumb and obnoxious.  It's a good thing her "seduction" of Mr. Winterton was done off-screen because i cannot imagine Turner being anything other than chringy in her flirtations, both because of how she has been drawn to date and because this show is not subtle. 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But isn't it odd that we are discussing about George's very small *private* mistake when he revealed his ruthless character with the union man, not to speak of his opinion that "anyone can be bought" (which was true with "old money" men and wives in the first season).  

 

And his bragging that "only" 20 people died building the Brooklyn Bridge. Weird flex!

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

For some reason I don't trust the minister.  I'm starting to think he's actually looking to use Ada as a way to woo Agnes and her money.  Maybe I'm just too cynical and he really does like Ada.

That doesn't seem like a good way to court Agnes, privately asking his sister to go out with him. I think he does like her, though whether it's really romantic on his part we'll see. He's got to have some reason why he hasn't married all this time--it would have been expected of him. If he wanted a rich wife he could have had one by now. A little late to start that career, it seems!

 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

This doesn't make much sense. Does Turner care about people finding out she was Bertha's Ladies Maid, or not? Because if she does care, the last place on earth she should have gone was back to the Russell house. She might be able to convince Bertha to keep quiet about it but yes - servants talk. They will recognize her and the word will spread like wildfire. Maybe she just doesn't care that word will get out, but she acted like she did.

Exactly. Why walk right into the place everybody knows you're the maid? Sure, Bertha may have reasons to keep quiet, but you're not protecting yourself very well. Basically everyone knows already--Oscar too, and he's not a servant or a Russell. The two servants from the two houses were already laughing about it, so it's well known in two houses already.

21 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

The irony is, of course and hamfisted as it is, that she is literally sowing the seeds of her own humiliation with her inability to just not do the petty asshole thing.  She has very little impulse control when it comes to her jealousy and now that she (wrongly) considers herself invulnerable to the Russells, she's not even trying to act with restraint. 

It's kind of a bummer. She's so one note that it's boring.  She's just dumb and obnoxious.  It's a good thing her "seduction" of Mr. Winterton was done off-screen because i cannot imagine Turner being anything other than chringy in her flirtations, both because of how she has been drawn to date and because this show is not subtle. 

Yes, not only is she revealing herself as a former maid to a big part of the world she's trying to move in as Old Money, she's making up new rumors about herself sleeping with the last guy she worked for. Is her new old husband so far gone she's willing to play with any fire that comes her way and assume it would never come back on her? Because now she's bringing men into it too. 

The only reason Bertha's much covering for her is because she needs her Old Money husband, right? So she's in a pretty precarious position.  

[hoodooznoodooz]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I can understand why Bertha's mad at George, certainly, but if I were her, I'd at least look forward to telling Turner how embarrassing it must have been for her to get naked and then get thrown out of bed.

[hoodooznoodooz]

Bertha has been very happy and confident with regard to her marriage and George’s loyalty.

I’m surprised she was vulnerable to Turner’s bluff.

 

Also, she is a masterful chess player. I can imagine her panicking but then outwardly laughing in Turner’s face. My husband loves me and respects me. And would never even consider a dalliance with a lowly lady’s maid. 
 

[I tried to attach this to the quote above. Sorry!]

[Affogato]

Well, I guess they didn't know Oscar was gay.  Wilde did, he would have recognized the jealousy our Oscar was telegraphing to the room when he talked to John Adams. Making your living as a dinner and party guest requires social sensitivity. 

Wilde's play has a match in George's labor dispute! If Wilde sticks around will he be involved in some of the disputes, or provide commentary with a european slant. With all this bickering about money, the labor men are willing to put their lives on the line for someone else, which is refreshing in this show.

Bertha has misstepped, I think, in insisting the opening be at the same time.  If the person crossing the ocean is not Buckingham, or if there is some other trap hidden in the news, Bertha could be in trouble (hence, she asks George to check him out). Bertha was also told that Turner has made friends with many of the established families already. And Bertha, she has not. If Bertha makes accusations about Turner, they may be passed off as jealousy, where if Turner makes public some things she learned, they may be considered gossip. I think this season, as shows are paced, may end on a down note for Bertha.

Peggy should not go south of the Mason Dixon line, but she is obviously positioned to show us a part of the world we wouldn't otherwise see for ourselves. My wild guess is that she will be good and humble, but will move to help someone--a black boy, perhaps?--and get into trouble that way. If she lives, it will be a good article.

I love that they are actually using Agnes and Ada this year in a number of plots. Agnes is having her world slowly overturned. I expect Oscars proclivities will come to light, as well as the opera business, and Ada moving on from the role of companion. No soup for luncheon, but Ada conspired! She has interests, a suitor, and wants to go to parties!

Marian has aplomb this episodes, buckets of aplomb.

Larry is having a fantastic adventure in Newport, if he can manage not to mess it up. Also, classic. Widow and virgin thing.

[RachelKM]

32 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Bertha has been very happy and confident with regard to her marriage and George’s loyalty.

I’m surprised she was vulnerable to Turner’s bluff.

I don't think she was especially vulnerable to the extent that she necessarily believed Turner. But Turner seemed certain enough of herself to make Bertha doubt ever so slightly and at least suspect she was kept out of the loop about something. And she was right about that last bit.

I think that is part of her anger.  She knew Turner was calculating and had ambitions. But while Turner was helpful to her and not overstepping with the men of the family (Bertha only suspected as to Larry), Bertha didn't mind that side.  George withholding the information left Bertha vulnerable to Turner both while she was working for her, to the extent Turner might plot against her within her own home, and now giving Turner ammunition 

19 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Bertha was also told that Turner has made friends with many of the established families already. And Bertha, she has not. If Bertha makes accusations about Turner, they may be passed off as jealousy, where if Turner makes public some things she learned, they may be considered gossip. I think this season, as shows are paced, may end on a down note for Bertha.

I don't think it was said that Turner has ingratiated herself. I could swear McCallister said no one really knew her.  And Bertha doesn't have to launch a frontal attack.  Her servants could be let loose to talk and it would be out in no time.  Then she would have the luxury of merely confirming it and acting as if she was being magnanimous thinking to give the climber a chance. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by RachelKM

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This doesn't make much sense. Does Turner care about people finding out she was Bertha's Ladies Maid, or not? Because if she does care, the last place on earth she should have gone was back to the Russell house. She might be able to convince Bertha to keep quiet about it but yes - servants talk. They will recognize her and the word will spread like wildfire. Maybe she just doesn't care that word will get out, but she acted like she did.

Maybe I just find her endearing compared to Miranda Hobbes. But she's also very sweet with Marian.

The valet, formerly a businessman, seems like a somewhat connected storyline. It may be that moving on up is good, moving down is bad. I wonder why he couldn't get a job in business, even if he had been bankrupt, but I have very little actual knowledge of the laws and attitudes of the time. I'd wonder if the daughter's husband couldn't offer the father a respectable clerking job of some sort, nothing important, as an alternative. Well, apparently not. I don't know how horrible it would be if the old money learned Turner was a maid--it could go badly if her husband didn't know, I can see that.

I enjoyed the reaction of the Russell staff when she showed up.