S02.E02: Some Sort of Trick

[AntFTW]

Quote

After giving Oscar his final verdict, George sends Clay to meet Mr. Henderson, the union leader at his Pittsburgh steel plant. Meanwhile, Agnes chides Ada for being too chatty during a visit with Luke Forte, Mrs. Fane arranges a match for Marian in Newport, Larry gets a new commission, and Peggy is welcomed back to 61st Street by all but one.

Air date: November 5, 2023

[Salacious Kitty]

Wow, that wasn't the same description on my guide! 

Sounds like Oscar will be shown the door earlier than we anticipated. No way George allows the suit to continue. 

[AntFTW]

I don't think I've ever wanted to punch a character in the face more than I did with Armstrong. She was literally about to argue with Agnes about simply being nice to Peggy.

[Straycat80]

My head is spinning from who is pursuing who between Oscar and Marion. 
Looks like Marion is liking Dashiel instead of drunk Mr. Morgan.

Oscar took losing Gladys well. I’ll bet he goes after the new young lady (name?) he met at the party. 
I like that Larry stands up to his Mom. I foresee a scandal with him having a fling with that older woman, she seems jealous. 

[AntFTW]

OMG! Turner is now a rich man's wife. Initially, I didn't recognize Turner until she started talking.

I loved this episode. I liked this episode more than I liked the entirely of season 1.

19 minutes ago, Straycat80 said:

My head is spinning from who is pursuing who between Oscar and Marion. 
Looks like Marion is liking Dashiel instead of drunk Mr. Morgan.

I don't she likes him in a romantic way... at least not yet. As far as this episode, other people trying to be matchmaker to Marion is sort of pushing her into him. He's much better company relative to the drunk banker. He's willing to conveniently help Marion escape him. I think the more they interact, the more Marion will lean toward liking Dashiell romantically.

Edited November 6, 2023 by AntFTW

[peridot]

I laughed at Agnes' snark about Ada talking non-stop to the priest. 

When Mr. Russell agreed to the interview with Oscar, I was wondering if he would bring up his affairs to stop him from pursuing Gladys.  Nope, he just said "no" with no explanation.  I loved it!

I'm glad that Agnes told Armstrong to shape up or ship out.  Was Armstrong really crying about who will hire her, when Agnes only wants her to be kind?!  I'm glad that Peggy basically told Armstrong to not fuck with her.

Larry made a mistake sleeping with his employer.  She could easily turn on him and destroy his career.  Her jealousy towards Marion isn't good.

I didn't realize that tall guy was drunk at first, I just thought he was an obnoxious guy who can't read the room.  It's good to see more of the familial relationship between Oscar and Marion this episode.

I also enjoyed the relationship between the Russells.  They can be sweet.

That ending with the scorned maid, ouch!

Edited November 6, 2023 by peridot

[AntFTW]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:17 PM, peridot said:

Larry made a mistake sleeping with his employer.  She could easily turn on him and destroy his career.

This may have been true of the time, but one thing I felt like this episode highlighted is that there wouldn't be much cost to the man in the event of a scandal, or certainly that the men just don't care as much.

Larry is sleeping with a client. He is willing to risk a scandal to have this fling. Even if it's a scandal, his parents will probably give him a building or house to design. Larry is lucky enough to have won the life lottery in that his father is an extremely influential person that could get Larry a new gig if it became necessary.

With regard to Turner, we don't know the backstory yet but she probably met her new husband as his maid. If that's the case, her husband probably didn't care about a scandal.

Edited November 7, 2023 by AntFTW

[Jodithgrace]

I don’t remember most of the subplots from last season. How did Mrs Russel’s lady’s maid end up married to Mr. Old money? Her name is Turner? Or was, that is.

Part of me feels bad for Oscar in his quest for a wife. But mostly I don’t want him to succeed because it’s a terribly unfair life for a wife married to a closeted gay man. One of my favorite films is Maurice (starring a very young Hugh Grant) about two Oxford students who fall in love in 1912, and how Hugh Grant’s character ends up in a closeted marriage of convenience, which is very sad. 
 

I kept thinking that the feckless Mr. Morgan would turn out to be J.P. Morgan, but old JP would already be a big shot by this period,  and not  a drunken youth. Right? Hmmm.  Have to Google. Ok…there was a JPMorgan Jr, but everyone would have known who he was. 

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

I don’t remember most of the subplots from last season. How did Mrs Russel’s lady’s maid end up married to Mr. Old money? Her name is Turner? Or was, that is.

We don't know. They haven't revealed how Turner ended up marrying Mr. Old Money.

4 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

I kept thinking that the feckless Mr. Morgan would turn out to be J.P. Morgan, but old JP would already be a big shot by this period,  and not  a drunken youth. Right?

Right. This is not J.P. Morgan. J.P. Morgan was already established and well-known by this time. If I recall correctly, they mention meeting up with J.P. Morgan either in the last episode or last season.

Edited November 6, 2023 by AntFTW

[Athena5217]

Show whiplash tonight. Last season George threatened to ruin poor Archie Baldwin’s life if he didn’t give up pursuing Gladys. Archie was a nice boy and Gladys was interested in him, but Bertha didn’t think he was good enough. Now George just wants Gladys to have a loving marriage.

I can’t believe Larry would tell his mother he was having sex with the widow. Way too modern. Ironically, I just listened to a podcast interview with Julian Fellows in which he complained about writers making female characters to modern for the time period.

I will think about Agnes tomorrow when I eat my packed lunch at work.

[Sailorgirl26]

So now we've got Laura Benanti added to the list of Broadway stars in this show, AND a plot around an opera house -- if we don't get some sort of fundraiser where they all sing to raise money (and somehow figure out how to get Audra McDonald in there), I will be HIGHLY disappointed! 

And speaking of Laura Benanti -- her black and white dress when she and Larry returned to the house before heading to Cougartown was the winner of the week for me! 

[txhorns79]

55 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Larry is sleeping with a client. He is willing to risk a scandal to have this fling. Even if it's a scandal, his parents will probably give him a building or house to design. Larry us lucking enough to have won the life lottery in that his father is extremely influential person that could get Larry a new gig if it became necessary.

Here, I feel like there are at least hints that Mrs. Blaine is the type who will not be ignored, and Larry may regret making sure the curtains matched the drapes. 

 

31 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

Show whiplash tonight. Last season George threatened to ruin poor Archie Baldwin’s life if he didn’t give up pursuing Gladys. Archie was a nice boy and Gladys was interested in him, but Bertha didn’t think he was good enough. Now George just wants Gladys to have a loving marriage.

Different situations.  Gladys had yet to come out then, and Gladys herself admitted that she wasn't particularly into Oscar, so he's not the threat that Archie was. 

I really don't understand Armstrong's behavior at this point.  She herself pointed out that losing the job with Agnes will be the ruin of her, and yet, her hostility towards Peggy persists.  I could kind of understand if Armstrong was just really racist, but it doesn't feel like that is what is driving her animosity. 

I did enjoy Turner showing up at the end, being all like: "I'm back bitches!  Ya miss me?" 

[Camera One]

I'm glad Agnes gave Armstrong a talking-to, but clearly, it didn't stick and she was being her usual rude self.  I did laugh when Armstrong said she hoped that clock was broken because that footman guy would probably mess up the repair.

Though Turner sure hit the jackpot, so some people get rewarded for bad behavior.

I liked Oscar a little more for the first time as he helped Marian escape that suitor.  I didn't feel they had any sort of friendship up until this point, so at least this builds it a little.

It was disappointing that Larry was already sleeping with Mrs. Blaine.  I can see her becoming a villain eventually.  I'm not sure I want a pairing with Marian if Larry sleeps around so easily. 

That single father guy isn't very interesting, though nice.

If Bertha is fundraising and recruiting people for boxes at the new opera house, will she be shunned by old money again?  

Mr. Russell is promising his daughter to back her if she falls in love.  Is she no longer in love with that guy from last season?

[RachelKM]

15 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I don't she likes him in a romantic way... at least not yet. As far as this episode, other people trying to be matchmaker to Marion is sort of pushing her into him. H

My prediction for this relationship is that it will be an Anne Shirley and Emmeline and Mr. Harris situation in which Marian adores the daughter and likes the father, but isn't in love. 

I also expect that Larry will end up falling for the widow because he's that guy and she seems to already be showing her possessiveness which he will read as love only to have her unwilling to marry because she's been-there-done-that and she's finally wealthy and independent which will disillusion/break Larry's heart.

Marian will be kind to him and he'll realize he has feelings for her (he doesn't like the kind of girls him mother is advocating and Marian has been cast as "different from the old money").

I'm predicting the end of the season will close with Marian having a proposal from Dashiell Montgomery and Larry professing his interest (if not love).

15 hours ago, peridot said:

Was Armstrong really crying about who will hire her, when Agnes only wants her to be kind?!  I'm glad that Peggy basically told Armstrong to not fuck with her.

Yeah, that was fully unreal. My girl. All you have to do is not be an asshole. That's it. Don't be a dick It's that simple. And yet....

Edited November 6, 2023 by RachelKM
clarification

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I like that Larry stands up to his Mom. I foresee a scandal with him having a fling with that older woman, she seems jealous. 

 

4 hours ago, peridot said:

Larry made a mistake sleeping with his employer.  She could easily turn on him and destroy his career.  Her jealousy towards Marion isn't good.

 

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Larry is sleeping with a client. He is willing to risk a scandal to have this fling. Even if it's a scandal, his parents will probably give him a building or house to design. Larry us lucking enough to have won the life lottery in that his father is extremely influential person that could get Larry a new gig if it became necessary.

 

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Here, I feel like there are at least hints that Mrs. Blaine is the type who will not be ignored, and Larry may regret making sure the curtains matched the drapes.

 

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

It was disappointing that Larry was already sleeping with Mrs. Blaine.  I can see her becoming a villain eventually.  I'm not sure I want a pairing with Marian if Larry sleeps around so easily. 

 

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I also expect that Larry will end up falling for the widow because he's that guy and she seems to already be showing her possessiveness which he will read as love only to have her unwilling to marry because she's been there done that and she's finally wealthy and independent which will disillusion/break Larry's heart.

Larry seems be a typical rich man's son who falls easily into temptation and thinks that he can do anything without grave consequences.

For a single man, it's of course not sex itself but having it semi-publicly. Having a relationship with a client is also a big no-no.

Plus, as many have said above, she seems that kind of woman who can cause trouble in many ways.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, peridot said:

When Mr. Russell agreed to the interview with Oscar, I was wondering if he would bring up his affairs to stop him from pursuing Gladys.  Nope, he just said "no" with no explanation.  I loved it!

Actually, Mr Russell did gave an explanation to Oscar: he wanted better to his daughter, not a marriage of convenience. From his conversation with his daughter he knows that she doesn't love Oscar.  

We don't even know if Mr Russell knows that Oscar is gay, but we do know that he has from the beginning suspected that Oscar is a fortune hunter. Plus, Oscar stopped courying Gladys when it seemed that Mr Russell was going to loose huis fortune - not a sign that he sincerely loves Gladys. 

4 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Show whiplash tonight. Last season George threatened to ruin poor Archie Baldwin’s life if he didn’t give up pursuing Gladys. Archie was a nice boy and Gladys was interested in him, but Bertha didn’t think he was good enough. Now George just wants Gladys to have a loving marriage.

 

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Different situations.  Gladys had yet to come out then, and Gladys herself admitted that she wasn't particularly into Oscar, so he's not the threat that Archie was. 

Yes, it was a different situation. Gladys had a crush on Archie Baldwin who was eligible and decent enough. Although Mr Russell seemed to let his wife persuade him to decline Archie, it would have been foolish to let his daughter to marry before she had a chance to meet other men. Of course the option could have been: wait two years if your feelings remain the same. Anyway, Gladys got over it quite easily.

Now Mr Russell talked with his daughter and kept the matter secret from his wife. He made his decision only after he learned that Gladys didn't love Oscar but only wanted to be free from her mother. As Mr Russell wisely said, one can hardly find just freedom in marriage. 

So far, I am tended to believe Mr Russell's promise that he will let Gladys marry a man she loves, even against the opinion of his wife he adores. It was gratifying that Gladys seems to have understand that his father is a better judge of suitors' character than herself.

It's sad that women had to make a decisions for the whole life on the basis of so scant information, after meeting men only at the events. 

[Roseanna]

Does anyone know if it was really true in the US in the 1880 that Mrs Russell had long to fight for acceptance by "old money" because her husband was "new money" and a lady is afraid that her father's occupationa as Mr Russell's valet will be  revealed but Turner who was Mrs Russell's maid not long ago will be accepted straightaway after she married an "old money" man?

In the first season Turner made an offer to Mr Russell to become his mistress, so why wouldn't she be content with the same postion with the "old money" man but succeeded to marry him? Wasn't she working in his household but met him in the circumstances where he didn't know her background? Why did he marry her so suddenly - even if they had a relationship and she became pregnant, that's not the reason enough for an upper class man to marry a lower class woman.

Well, there is already a lady who helped Marian and Raikes, but she lived years with a married man until his wife died and is still not accepted by the society. 

 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

Part of me feels bad for Oscar in his quest for a wife. But mostly I don’t want him to succeed because it’s a terribly unfair life for a wife married to a closeted gay man.

Yes it's unfair, but she has lived in France and perhaps knows more about the world than Gladys. And as there are rumors about her true paternity, she may have difficulties to find a husband, despite her money. So maybe she can make with Osvar with open eyes an agreement that is beneficial for both them.

Before all, Oscar's plot must fo forward. 

[rollacoaster]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Why did he marry her so suddenly - even if they had a relationship and she became pregnant, that's not the reason enough for an upper class man to marry a lower class woman.

He's an old man, and Turner used her magic pointy tittie powers on him. He didn't stand a chance. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by rollacoaster

[Brn2bwild]

This was a fun episode.  The Russells have a "worthy" adversary in the now-married Turner, though it would be more satisfying if they had somehow been responsible for turning her as bad as she became last season.  Instead she was just a bad egg from the beginning who was rightfully dismissed.

I wonder if George's promise to back Gladys with regard to whomever she loves will blow up in his face.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Brn2bwild

[AntFTW]

6 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

This was a fun episode.  The Russells have a "worthy" adversary in the now-married Turner, though it would be more satisfying if they had somehow been responsible for turning her as bad as she became last season.  Instead she was just a bad egg from the beginning who was rightfully dismissed.

It’s complicated, because she should have been dismissed but the reason she was dismissed was not a good one. Bertha fired her because Agnes asked her to, thinking Turner and Oscar were either having a fling or flirting at least.

As far as we know, Bertha has no idea what Turner did last season.

[iMonrey]

I liked this episode much better than last week's. It didn't revolve around Peggy's grief and Bertha's obsession with an opera box, so other stuff got a chance to happen. The servants even got a little more attention from the writers this week, although I still don't know half their names. 

Some of it felt way too rushed though. Larry went from meeting Mrs. Blaine to sleeping with her in a nanosecond. And Oscar lost Gladys and gained a new prospect in about a day. The new girl just turned up out of nowhere. Convenient!

I didn't even recognize or remember who Turner was until they showed the preview for next week so the surprise element was lost on me.

13 hours ago, AntFTW said:

This may have been true of the time, but one thing I felt like this episode highlighted is that there wouldn't be much cost to the man in the event of a scandal, or certainly that the men just don't care as much.

Agreed. It's Mrs. Blaine who would suffer if this became a scandal. She would be a pariah like what's her face from last season. Mrs. Chamberlain?

12 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I really don't understand Armstrong's behavior at this point.  She herself pointed out that losing the job with Agnes will be the ruin of her, and yet, her hostility towards Peggy persists.  I could kind of understand if Armstrong was just really racist, but it doesn't feel like that is what is driving her animosity. 

I'm at a loss to think of what else it could be, so I'm taking it at face value that it's exactly what it seems.

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Agreed. It's Mrs. Blaine who would suffer if this became a scandal. She would be a pariah like what's her face from last season. Mrs. Chamberlain?

I'm not sure that Larry cares if it will be a scandal.

I think his career prospects as an architect are fine. He can get an apprenticeship for the right price. He could start is own architectural firm if he wanted to. Larry is well-connected. He could find more work if he wanted to.

I think his prospects for a "suitable" marriage may change as a result of the scandal, but not his career. The women in this upper crust of society may not want a man attached to a scandal. Their parents may not approve their daughters to be married to Larry. However, Larry possibly won't care. Larry may be okay with marrying a former lady's maid or a widow.

12 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I really don't understand Armstrong's behavior at this point.  She herself pointed out that losing the job with Agnes will be the ruin of her, and yet, her hostility towards Peggy persists.  I could kind of understand if Armstrong was just really racist, but it doesn't feel like that is what is driving her animosity. 

16 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm at a loss to think of what else it could be, so I'm taking it at face value that it's exactly what it seems.

I'm confident that racism is driving Armstrong's animosity, but she's being passive aggressive with it.

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

Oscar took losing Gladys well. I’ll bet he goes after the new young lady (name?) he met at the party. 
I like that Larry stands up to his Mom. I foresee a scandal with him having a fling with that older woman, she seems jealous. 

She seems like she's going to turn into a big bunny boiler. She's already seemingly wildly jealous of Marion. Sure it won't kill his reputation to be sleeping with a woman, but she seems ready to go pretty nuts very quickly.

 

12 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I really don't understand Armstrong's behavior at this point.  She herself pointed out that losing the job with Agnes will be the ruin of her, and yet, her hostility towards Peggy persists.  I could kind of understand if Armstrong was just really racist, but it doesn't feel like that is what is driving her animosity. 

I think it's meant to be racism, but again, the show doesn't want to have people be as blatantly racist as they could and would be back then. As a racist it would probably be all the more galling to her to be threatened because she refused to consider Peggy an equal.

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Does anyone know if it was really true in the US in the 1880 that Mrs Russell had long to fight for acceptance by "old money" because her husband was "new money" and a lady is afraid that her father's occupationa as Mr Russell's valet will be  revealed but Turner who was Mrs Russell's maid not long ago will be accepted straightaway after she married an "old money" man?

Seems like it might not be known that she was a maid. Maybe the guy is hiding the fact and has enough power to make that stick, or maybe she fooled him too with some fake story. If a previously wealthy man makes a good valet, a lady man could probably pass very well as a mysterious formerly rich lady.

 

[Sarah 103]

 

13 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

So now we've got Laura Benanti added to the list of Broadway stars in this show, AND a plot around an opera house -- if we don't get some sort of fundraiser where they all sing to raise money (and somehow figure out how to get Audra McDonald in there), I will be HIGHLY disappointed! 

My guess is we will see Audra McDonald show off her musical talent but it will be at home. It will be her practicing for a church or some other type of event, or maybe just playing for fun. Singing and playing the right kind of songs was considered proper and a sign of good breeding for a lady, so it would make sense. 

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

Mr. Russell is promising his daughter to back her if she falls in love.

That surprised me at first, but it does make sense. Mr. Russel knows how important his wife is to his successes, and the fact they love each other and will do anything for each other is part of that. It was not a marriage of convince where each is just playing their part. They are fiercely devoted to each other, and Mr. Russell wants that for his daughter. 

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

We don't even know if Mr Russell knows that Oscar is gay, but we do know that he has from the beginning suspected that Oscar is a fortune hunter. 

This is going to cause problems. Mr. Russell does not want this daughter to marry a fortune hunter. Mrs. Russell would probably be okay with it if the man had a title or prestige. 

3 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I wonder if George's promise to back Gladys with regard to whomever she loves will blow up in his face.

I am pretty sure this is going to lead to a massive shouting screaming match between the couple. This is going to be a fight that will be loud and heard by every servant in the house.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Agreed. It's Mrs. Blaine who would suffer if this became a scandal

Absolutely. From the perspective of the time, Larry was just a young man sowing his wild oats and having a fling. It's what young men did, although he should have been a bit more discrete about his choice of partners. Mrs. Blaine would be a pathetic old woman chasing after a younger man trying to recapture her lost youth. Also, a widow should not be having affairs. She should wait until she is married again. 

[Pop Tart]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

It’s complicated, because she should have been dismissed but the reason she was dismissed was not a good one. Bertha fired her because Agnes asked her to, thinking Turner and Oscar were either having a fling or flirting at least.

As far as we know, Bertha has no idea what Turner did last season.

She wasn't fired for coming onto Mr. Russell (who did not tell Bertha), but it wasn't just that Agnes asked her to because of Oscar. After Marian conveyed to Bertha that Agnes wanted Turner gone because she'd been seen with Oscar (in so many words) Bertha seemed a bit dismissive. Like why should she care if her maid was making time with Oscar. It was only when she saw what looked like a somewhat chummy moment between Turner and Larry that she made the decision to get rid of Turner.

So she got rid of her for potentially getting too close to a Russell man, but it was the wrong family member.

As soon as we heard mention of a young Mrs. Blaine wanting to engage Larry I figured they'd become involved, so no surprise there. I was totally surprised when  it turned out Turner was the young wife of the wealthy old dude. Nicely done JF.

And as to Turner's acceptance by the old guard, she'd certainly have some challenges but being married to a wealthy old guard guy puts her a bit ahead of the Russells who neither one has "lineage" as far as society goes. Of course this is on the understanding that no one knows Turner was a ladies maid (which I assume they don't yet). If they find out her full background, she'd be about as accepted as Mrs. Chamberlain.

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

She wasn't fired for coming onto Mr. Russell (who did not tell Bertha), but it wasn't just that Agnes asked her to because of Oscar. After Marian conveyed to Bertha that Agnes wanted Turner gone because she'd been seen with Oscar (in so many words) Bertha seemed a bit dismissive. Like why should she care if her maid was making time with Oscar. It was only when she saw what looked like a somewhat chummy moment between Turner and Larry that she made the decision to get rid of Turner.

So she got rid of her for potentially getting too close to a Russell man, but it was the wrong family member.

Sure, I understand but I think even that stems from Agnes' letter. I think it made Bertha hyper aware of Turner chumminess with Larry. I imagine that probably wasn't the first time Turner was chummy with Larry. I just think it was Agnes' letter that made Bertha really start to notice.

[DiabLOL]

I have no problem believing that Turner’s new husband knows and doesn’t care about her background. As a matter of fact I can believe someone wealthy, powerful and old would see it as a flex. He can do whatever he pleases.

[RachelKM]

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Does anyone know if it was really true in the US in the 1880 that Mrs Russell had long to fight for acceptance by "old money" because her husband was "new money" and a lady is afraid that her father's occupationa as Mr Russell's valet will be  revealed but Turner who was Mrs Russell's maid not long ago will be accepted straightaway after she married an "old money" man?

A woman's marriage into significant upward mobility generally came with some snubs or at least initial coolness. But It wasn't particularly unheard of and even if some people in society never let it go, it was generally accepted.  So, while Turner would absolutely not be universally accepted, she could expect some degree of acceptance and certainly an easier time than her prior life.  But, as said above, if her precise prior station were discovered she'd likely end up in a similar position to Mrs. Chamberlain.

The daughter of the valet is a slightly different case.  From her Opera Party arrival, it was made clear that she and her husband were among those seeking, but not having a great prospect of, a box at the academy and very in favor of the Met.  So it seems they are new money and, at best, on the bubble. And that tracks since the valet, no matter how broke he was, would never have ended up in the servant class if he were from an established old money family.  

If the daughter and her husband are in the process of social climbing, her father being Mr. Russell's valet would be a blow, possibly a kill shot. 

10 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Also, a widow should not be having affairs. She should wait until she is married again. 

Yes and no.  You should not be caught having an affair.  But widows did have a degree of freedom and if they remained discrete, rumors of a not too scandalous nature could be tolerated. It would a little bit depend on her own background as well.  If she were not from the old money crowd, she'd be viewed as "reverting to type."

That said, an affair with a man half her age with whom she was publicly seen and of whom she was demonstrably possessive is the antithesis of discrete.  

Edited November 7, 2023 by RachelKM

[Carolina Girl]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I really don't understand Armstrong's behavior at this point. 

My only thought on that is that Armstrong, as Agnes's lady's made, sees herself as an informal confidant for Agnes, i.e., the one Agnes unburdens herself to when the two are alone (harken back to the relationship lady's maids of both "Downton Abbey" and even "Gosford Park" with their employers - they are always in on the house gossip, etc.)  Perhaps Armstrong sees Peggy as usurping this role of "downstairs" confidant and that Agnes will shut her out.  

I'm sure racism plays a role in Armstrong's atrocious behavior, but I think jealousy is a factor as well.  After all, Peggy moves about freely with the family upstairs whereas Peggy seems to be confined either downstairs or in Agnes's room.  

Edited November 6, 2023 by Carolina Girl

[Snazzy Daisy]

Wait, what? Thomas the hot editor is married? Ahhh, come on. 😩 

Despite being a robber baron, George is such an attentive dad. He is such a zaddy…😍

Not really interested in racist Armstrong and also Jack & his alarm clock. Jack will invent something later and he will make it big, maybe.

Quote

“Ada, you are the parishioner here, not the rector. It is not for you to dispense blessings.”

Quote

“What came over you? Had you taken chatter pills? I wonder you didn’t ask to see his mother’s death certificate.”

Aunt Agnes and her mean-girl snarks. 😂

Geez, Larry. Don’t you realize that Susan Blane is going Alex Forrest on you?

Oscar and Maud Beaton can be each other’s beard. Perfect arrangement. Oscar does fancy a robber baron for a father in-law huh. 😬

Yes, finally! George’s sexual proposition secret is about to come out.

Enjoy seeing Bertha and her face crack, Mrs. Winterton be like…

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Snazzy Daisy

[iMonrey]

2 hours ago, RachelKM said:

The daughter of the valet is a slightly different case.  From her Opera Party arrival, it was made clear that she and her husband were among those seeking, but not have a great prospect of, a box at the academy and very in favor of the Met.  So it seems they are new money and, at best, on the bubble. And that tracks since the valet, no matter how broke he was, would never have ended up in the servant class if he were from an established old money family. 

I've totally forgotten what the valet's storyline is. Why is it a secret he has a daughter, and what was the backstory of him becoming a valet?

[tennisgurl]

George might be a Robber Barron who scoffs at the idea of an eight hour work day for people doing hard labor, but he really is a great husband and father. Him wanting to make sure that Gladys doesn't settle and marries someone she really loves is really sweet, and even if he doesn't know that Oscar is gay and lookin for a rich beard, he probably caught on quickly that he was after their money first and foremost. Never try to fuck a fucker, Oscar. George and Bertha are such a strong team, I can see why he wants Gladys to find a match who she can form a real partnership with. Its too bad Bertha might disagree, she clearly wants to find Gladys a specifically wealthy man with a very specific lineage (I'm guessing she hoping to land Gladys an English aristocrat) regardless of her thoughts on the matter, that could lead to come conflict. 

I think that Larry's going to regret sleeping with the widow, and not just because of his moms disapproval. Even if her reputation would be more damaged by an affair being discovered, it sounds like it could be messy, more messy than what he probably expects. 

I feel bad for Oscar, its not fair that he has to marry a woman who he will inevitably not be interested in, but it also sucks for whatever woman he marries. Is there some kind of secret newspaper for LGBTQ people lookin for beards? He could marry a nice respectable lesbian looking for a husband who wont be lookin for much from her beyond appearances! 

I really like the scenes with Oscar and Marian, they have a sweet familiar sort of bond. 

Marian doesn't seem to be romantically into Dashiel yet but that is clearly where this is going. He seems like a good prospect, certainly better than Mr. Raikes, but I am still pretty sure Marian is going to find herself drawn to Larry. 

Awww I think Ada has a little crush! Agnes might be more offended by that packed lunch than anything. 

Guess it went better for Turner when she surprised that guy by showing up in his bed naked. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Seems like it might not be known that she was a maid. Maybe the guy is hiding the fact and has enough power to make that stick, or maybe she fooled him too with some fake story. If a previously wealthy man makes a good valet, a lady man could probably pass very well as a mysterious formerly rich lady.

 

2 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

And as to Turner's acceptance by the old guard, she'd certainly have some challenges but being married to a wealthy old guard guy puts her a bit ahead of the Russells who neither one has "lineage" as far as society goes. Of course this is on the understanding that no one knows Turner was a ladies maid (which I assume they don't yet). If they find out her full background, she'd be about as accepted as Mrs. Chamberlain.

Well, if nobody knows, and especially if her husband doesn't know, that Turner was a ladies maid, the cards are Mrs Russell's hands who can threaten to reveal it. 

[RachelKM]

20 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I've totally forgotten what the valet's storyline is. Why is it a secret he has a daughter, and what was the backstory of him becoming a valet?

We actually don't know much of it.  In Season One, we just had Observer Valet observing a woman for unknown reasons until he finally approached her in the final episode of the season.  I believe it was established in that scene that he was her father.  But that's as far as we got.

In E1 of this season, the daughter acknowledged the relationship to her husband and said that her mothers had told her that her father had come down in the world but not that he was a servant.  This episode too, he didn't really tell much of it. So I guess that story is being doled out in what I suppose the writers hope will be intriguing. So far, despite being played by Michael Cerveris, I don't actually care... at all. And nothing about the daughter in the last episode directed me to be so inclined.

I completely forgot one of my favorite parts of this episode. Aurora Fane's facial expressions as she dealt with Mr. Morgan were great.  I actually rewound to watch what was some of the best face acting I've seen in a long time.  And Charles Fane's face at the end of the scene as he walked away was good too. My man, Chuck, knows damn well Aurora is about the hand him his ass for bringing that booze soaked dolt as a prospect for Marian. 

I also enjoyed Oscar's protectiveness in that scene.  They continue to make Oscar more likable, or at least not an absolute jerk. Last season he seemed mostly indifferent to Marian and generally like a callous schemer. This season, he's being written more sympathetically and his relationship with Marian seems warmer as if likes her and feels real familial affection for her.  

Edited November 7, 2023 by RachelKM
Typos

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

She wasn't fired for coming onto Mr. Russell (who did not tell Bertha), but it wasn't just that Agnes asked her to because of Oscar. After Marian conveyed to Bertha that Agnes wanted Turner gone because she'd been seen with Oscar (in so many words) Bertha seemed a bit dismissive. Like why should she care if her maid was making time with Oscar. It was only when she saw what looked like a somewhat chummy moment between Turner and Larry that she made the decision to get rid of Turner.

So she got rid of her for potentially getting too close to a Russell man, but it was the wrong family member.

 

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Sure, I understand but I think even that stems from Agnes' letter. I think it made Bertha hyper aware of Turner chumminess with Larry. I imagine that probably wasn't the first time Turner was chummy with Larry. I just think it was Agnes' letter that made Bertha really start to notice.

While Agnes's letter probably made Bertha observe Turner, any mother at the time would have become alert when a servant touched her son. A woman never ever touched a man (except formally), unless they had a relationship, still less did so a servant. 

If Turner's relationship with her new husband began in such a way, he is an old fool. 

[AntFTW]

22 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Well, if nobody knows, and especially if her husband doesn't know, that Turner was a ladies maid, the cards are Mrs Russell's hands who can threaten to reveal it.

In one end, I assume that Turner being a lady’s maid is how they met and therefore her husband would know that she was a lady’s maid but on the other end, that would mean a lady had to reside in his house. He seems like an older man so I would imagine maybe that his children are grown and married in their own homes so it wouldn’t be a daughter. I hope they give some backstory there.

Separately, I’m sure Turner treats her new staff like shit.

Edited November 6, 2023 by AntFTW

[retired watcher]

18 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

 

I did enjoy Turner showing up at the end, being all like: "I'm back bitches!  Ya miss me?" 

I love how they had the whole family standing all together.

[rollacoaster]

19 minutes ago, retired watcher said:

I love how they had the whole family standing all together.

All four faces CRACKED. 

And when I saw it was Turner, I thought: "Awwwwww, SHIIIIIIIIT!!!"

[peeayebee]

22 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

I can’t believe Larry would tell his mother he was having sex with the widow. Way too modern. Ironically, I just listened to a podcast interview with Julian Fellows in which he complained about writers making female characters to modern for the time period.

When they kissed right on the front porch, I thought that was risqué.

22 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

And speaking of Laura Benanti -- her black and white dress when she and Larry returned to the house before heading to Cougartown was the winner of the week for me! 

Loved it. Reminded me of the Ascot dresses in My Fair Lady. BTW, the costume designer in that movie was Cecil Beaton. I wonder if the new possible love interest of Oscar's, Maud Beaton, was named in honor of him.

6 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

My only thought on that is that Armstrong, as Agnes's lady's made, sees herself as an informal confidant for Agnes, i.e., the one Agnes unburdens herself to when the two are alone (harken back to the relationship lady's maids of both "Downton Abbey" and even "Gosford Park" with their employers - they are always in on the house gossip, etc.)  Perhaps Armstrong sees Peggy as usurping this role of "downstairs" confidant and that Agnes will shut her out.  

I'm sure racism plays a role in Armstrong's atrocious behavior, but I think jealousy is a factor as well.  After all, Peggy moves about freely with the family upstairs whereas Peggy seems to be confined either downstairs or in Agnes's room.  

That all makes sense. Armstrong's behavior really bothered me in that it didn't seem realistic (or perhaps just not well-written), even considering she's a racist. So I hope that, as you theorized, something else will surface to show why she so resents Peggy.

I was not happy to see Turner again. I never liked her character at all. After E1, some people here posted that things were going too smooth and easy for the Russells. Alrighty then. Hereeeeeeeee's Turner!

The ep title is Some Sort of Trick. Did a character say those words?

 

[Salacious Kitty]

Armstrong said "Is this some sort of trick?" when Peggy gave her the basket of completed mending. 

[iMonrey]

I'm mostly impressed with the attempt to make NYC look like the 19th century but there was a shot of the exterior of George's office building and the buildings next to it and it looked so fake, like a matte painting. 

[Sarah 103]

9 hours ago, RachelKM said:

You should not be caught having an affair.  But widows did have a degree of freedom and if they remained discrete, rumors of a not too scandalous nature could be tolerated. It would a little bit depend on her own background as well.  If she were not from the old money crowd, she'd be viewed as "reverting to type."

That said, an affair with a man half her age with whom she was publicly seen and of whom she was demonstrably possessive is the antithesis of discrete.  

What I meant was what the gossip would be if the affair became known. What the conversation among the men in their club (or wherever they might discuss it) would be talking about Larry and what the conversation among the women in their parlor would be talking about the widow. 

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Is there some kind of secret newspaper for LGBTQ people lookin for beards? He could marry a nice respectable lesbian looking for a husband who wont be lookin for much from her beyond appearances! 

This would be the absolute best case scenario for both people involved. Gays and lesbians existed in the late 1880s and people were under tremendous pressure to marry so the idea of a beard doesn't seem completely outside the realm of possibility. Someone gay marrying a lesbian seems like the absolute edge of plausible, but possible. I could picture friends of friends who know people making discrete inquiries to make it happen and help them find each other.  

[RachelKM]

2 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

What I meant was what the gossip would be if the affair became known.

I understood.  I just meant that it being quietly suspected but not openly acknowledged might be politely ignored, even if whispered about in some corners. But being blatant about it would be beyond their society's limits.

In this case, her choice of partner and the public nature of their association would not be accepted. 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

In one end, I assume that Turner being a lady’s maid is how they met and therefore her husband would know that she was a lady’s maid but on the other end, that would mean a lady had to reside in his house. He seems like an older man so I would imagine maybe that his children are grown and married in their own homes so it wouldn’t be a daughter. 

But if he knew Turner to be a lady's maid, why did he to marry her instead of making her his mistress? Even if we didn't know that she was perfectly willing to become Mr Russell's mistress, as a ladies' maid she couldn't make the demand "marriage or nothing". 

[Haleth]

George and Bertha may both be ruthless and borderline villains when it comes to getting what they want, but man, they can't keep their hands off each other.  It's nice to see a long married couple who still are crazy about each other.  The way he looks at her?  Smoldering.

I'm a bit confused.  The valet's daughter who married rich cannot let it be known her father is a valet or they will be shunned, yet the lady's maid who married rich seems to be accepted just fine.  (Or maybe we'll find out not.)

I hope the writers are not trying to make Larry a stand in for Stanford White.  Fortunately Mr Blaine is dead.

I don't want Ada to have her heart broken since she is smitten with the priest.

That was a fun episode with all the kids (Oscar, coughcough) interacting at the tennis match.

On 11/6/2023 at 12:21 AM, Camera One said:

That single father guy isn't very interesting, though nice.

This describes Marian too.  They're perfect for each other.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I don't want Ada to have her heart broken since she is smitten with the priest.

Why should Adas have her broken? Maybe she is perfectly content to talk with him now and then.

Or maybe the priest is interested in her also? So far we don't know anything about him, except that he has until now been a mama's boy - suspicious or not?

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I'm a bit confused.  The valet's daughter who married rich cannot let it be known her father is a valet or they will be shunned, yet the lady's maid who married rich seems to be accepted just fine.  (Or maybe we'll find out not.)

There's something in the way Mrs. McNeil talks and interacts with Watson that there is an anger and resentment so deep and intense that it can't just be embarrassment and shame like Mildred Pierce's Veda saying "My mother is a waittress!"

[EtheltoTillie]

BTW, I tend to think that Mr. Russell knows that Oscar is gay.  Something about the way he said "marriage of convenience."  He's wordly enough to know about gay men, and Oscar is a little old to be first looking for a wife now. 

[chaifan]

55 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

There's something in the way Mrs. McNeil talks and interacts with Watson that there is an anger and resentment so deep and intense that it can't just be embarrassment and shame like Mildred Pierce's Veda saying "My mother is a waittress!"

I agree.  It's not just that he was a rich man who became poor due to a bad investment.  My guess has been that he lost his money in a scandalous way - could have been gambling, or being conned by a mistress, something that would have embarrassed the family and made him cut ties with his wife and children. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Season 1 when Watson confronted Mrs. McNeil, she didn't recognize him, right?  So whatever happened must have happened long ago, when she was a young child.

Honestly, the plot line is boring to me, and unnecessary with everything else going on.  I wish they dropped it as fast as they dropped the "My baby!  Where's my baby!" plot. 

Turner...  damn, they got me on that.  I knew she was coming back, and I did not see that coming.  What's that old line?  Living well is the best revenge.  Yep, and she's doing it in spades!  I'm also interested to see how they met and married so quickly.  My guess is that she was not a ladies maid, but there's some deception involved where she presented as a lady in distress or something like that. 

Armstrong...  I think there's something here beyond garden variety racism of the day.  If Armstrong were racist - that is, more racist than socially acceptable at the time - I think we'd see more of it.  Armstrong wouldn't want to sit at the same table as Peggy, would be making racist remarks, etc.  I can't remember what occurred between them last season, but I don't remember anything on that level. 

Ada and the minister...  that was a cute scene.  Christine Baranski just cuts like no one else can.  I was sort of hoping for the minister to woo Agnes, just so we could see a different side of her.  Would it be socially acceptable for Ada to be wooed by a minister?  I don't know where they fit in in the social structure of the day. 

Marion, Oscar, etc...  I agree with a  post above that talked about seeing more of the friendship between Marion and Oscar this season.  I like that.  I like how he just plopped himself on the sofa and she sat right by him, then asked Aurora to invite him along.  Marion is a much better character this season, and is better acted, too.  Larry and the widow is a fun plot line that could go so many ways.  I wonder how long it takes to do a renovation project like he has planned.  I also think it's funny that Bertha was so upset that Larry was half the widow's age, but apparently that wasn't an issue for Oscar wooing Gladys.  It was never said, oh, Oscar's way too old for her.  Love those double standards of the day... 

This was a great episode.  Loved seeing more of the Newport houses, loved the country club and the tennis match.  Bertha's dresses were stunning.  How far is it from Newport to NYC, and how long did it take back then?