S03.E05: Ah, Love!

[Yeah No]

This show is confusing me more and more every week and making me think I'm either going senile or out of my mind.  I've had a busy summer so I admit I haven't been paying as much attention to every detail as I used to, so either I'm to blame for this or the show is getting quirkier and trying to throw off the audience at every turn.  

So please indulge me - neither my husband nor I can remember Charles encountering Ben and Loretta having an altercation atop a staircase and slapping anyone.  Is that something he just revealed to the others or did both my husband and I fall asleep during that scene when it originally happened?

Look, I get it that we're going to find out stuff that we weren't privy to when it happened, but with stuff that our crew is involved in, especially Charles, shouldn't that have been a topic of discussion between them toward the end of figuring out who the murderer is?  And wouldn't that have been one big honking potential clue that begged to be discussed and researched?  

Anyway, if somehow my husband and I both spaced out on all of this happening before this episode, as Emily Litella used to say 40+ years ago, "Never mind"....

[peeayebee]

I’m with you. I’m often unsure if we’re getting new info or if I forgot what we’d already seen. Also, I think the show has ramped up their misdirects. 

I’m reminded of when Carnivale was on. The creator didn’t anticipate that viewers would record and freeze frame scenes in order to figure out the secrets. And now it’s even harder for tv shows to hide their secrets because of discussion boards and social media. So yeah, I think they’re putting in more red herrings. 

[Ohiopirate02]

15 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

This show is confusing me more and more every week and making me think I'm either going senile or out of my mind.  I've had a busy summer so I admit I haven't been paying as much attention to every detail as I used to, so either I'm to blame for this or the show is getting quirkier and trying to throw off the audience at every turn.  

So please indulge me - neither my husband nor I can remember Charles encountering Ben and Loretta having an altercation atop a staircase and slapping anyone.  Is that something he just revealed to the others or did both my husband and I fall asleep during that scene when it originally happened?

Look, I get it that we're going to find out stuff that we weren't privy to when it happened, but with stuff that our crew is involved in, especially Charles, shouldn't that have been a topic of discussion between them toward the end of figuring out who the murderer is?  And wouldn't that have been one big honking potential clue that begged to be discussed and researched?  

Anyway, if somehow my husband and I both spaced out on all of this happening before this episode, as Emily Litella used to say 40+ years ago, "Never mind"....

Didn't we see Charles punch Ben on the stage in full costume in last season's finale?  I could have sworn that happened back then, and the missing piece is Loretta being the "she" Charles talked about.  

[cardigirl]

26 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Didn't we see Charles punch Ben on the stage in full costume in last season's finale?  I could have sworn that happened back then, and the missing piece is Loretta being the "she" Charles talked about.  

We saw Charles threaten Ben, but we didn't see him punch him.

[LadyintheLoop]

Quote

Kimber's facial serum that she is hawking on Tik-Tok and she gave to Ben is called Venom.  

Thanks! I missed that! Seems like an odd choice, though; there's a reason Botox isn't marketed as Poisonous Snake Juice.

[Ohiopirate02]

13 minutes ago, LadyintheLoop said:

Thanks! I missed that! Seems like an odd choice, though; there's a reason Botox isn't marketed as Poisonous Snake Juice.

It's a reference to the influencer/scam artist Caroline Calloway.  One of Caroline's many scams was creating and selling her "snake oil" on Instagram complete with pictures of her filling the bottles surrounded by cat hair on her apartment floor.  It's something the millennial viewers would have picked up on especially the ones who live in NYC and are active on Instagram and Twitter.  

[meep.meep]

32 minutes ago, LadyintheLoop said:

Thanks! I missed that! Seems like an odd choice, though; there's a reason Botox isn't marketed as Poisonous Snake Juice.

or Botulism 🙂

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

or Botulism 🙂

What do you think Botox is short for?

[Snapdragon]

Count me in with those who think Loretta is Dickie's birth mom.  All the pics in the scrapbook had him in the background and I'm guessing all the articles mention him too.  I doubt Meryl Streep is hanging around for another season, so as much as I'm enjoying her and Oliver's romance, she's either a killer or they're going to break up for some other reason.

Speaking of break-ups, I felt so bad for Joy when she realized Charles hadn't meant to propose.  That was heartbreaking!  Maybe Charles will get his act together and can win her back but I don't blame her if she's done with him.

And while we're on the subject of relationships, is it really necessary for Mabel to have a love interest every season?  They're mostly terrible, have no chemistry with Mabel and she always ends up looking kind of dumb because she chooses the shadiest character to get involved with.  I mean, come on, Tobert isn't giving her creeper vibes?

If Ben does turn out to be twins, then I'm guessing there's going to be two murderers this season.  Or, Ben faked his death at the theater for press and then got for real murdered later.

[chaifan]

38 minutes ago, Snapdragon said:

And while we're on the subject of relationships, is it really necessary for Mabel to have a love interest every season?  They're mostly terrible, have no chemistry with Mabel

I totally agree.  There is -0- chemistry between Mabel and Tobert.  As there was -0- chemistry between Mabel and Alice last season.  Maybe Selena just doesn't have on-screen chemistry with other actors? 

Why would it have mattered that Jonathan saw Mabel and Tobert at his show?  I think it would be seen as oh, my former co-workers friends came to see me, how nice.  So the diving under the table was weird. 

Speaking of chemistry, I loved Loretta and Oliver on the ferry, especially the bit about the 40 year old joint rolled in purple crepe paper.  I would love for Loretta to just be a normal love interest for Oliver, I really like them together.  THEY have chemistry! 

Loretta calling Ben a fucking pig is sort of weird.  That's generally an insult to use if someone is being sexist, not just a general asshole.  What was their argument about?

But the tooth thing...  ew.  First, if you pull out a tooth, there is usually blood - that was awfully clean.  I thought it was going to be part of a partial or dentures or something.  That would have made more sense, and would have taken out the ick factor. 

I have no idea who killed Ben, or if anyone did.  But I love the pull out bookcases in the reading nook. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Why would it have mattered that Jonathan saw Mabel and Tobert at his show?  I think it would be seen as oh, my former co-workers friends came to see me, how nice.  So the diving under the table was weird. 

I could understand them not wanting to be seen seeing him with the doctor, but him running seemed odd because exactly, they came to see his show! That's nice and he should treat it as such even if he's nervous.

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I have no idea who killed Ben, or if anyone did.  But I love the pull out bookcases in the reading nook. 

Me too! 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I totally agree.  There is -0- chemistry between Mabel and Tobert.  As there was -0- chemistry between Mabel and Alice last season.  Maybe Selena just doesn't have on-screen chemistry with other actors? 

I see a tiny bit of chemistry between Mabel and her seasonal love interests. I think the director may be deliberately keeping it toned down since it's a one-season fling.
Plus, when I was about Mabel's age, I'd have a brief fling once a year, hoping it would be the One. So it seems natural to me. But I am also aware that most people tend to hook up more often than that, usually within at least the confines of serial monogamy. But, I also see Mabel as more like me in an Odd Duck kind of way, so...🤷🏻‍♀️

 

About the tooth:

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I thought it was going to be part of a partial or dentures or something.  That would have made more sense, and would have taken out the ick factor. 

I thought that too. Maybe it was?
If so, that shoots my DNA sample theory.

[meep.meep]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

What do you think Botox is short for?

Well the person I quoted seemed to think it was Poisonous Snake Juice.

I think Botulism is much much worse.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I see a tiny bit of chemistry between Mabel and her seasonal love interests. I think the director may be deliberately keeping it toned down since it's a one-season fling.

Me too.  I actually see chemistry between Mabel and Tobert this season but I didn't see much between her S1 and S2 love interests. 

I still think her best chemistry was with Theo.

[kittykat]

I can't tell if Tobert is a suspect or he's using Mabel to get a shot of the murder board (or both).  My guess is prior to Ben's death he had a dud of a documentary but the death gave it a more interesting angle and the focus will be on solving the case.  Since they haven't been recording a podcast maybe the finished documentary will give the Arconia trio some new fame.  Whether he is friend or foe is unsure.

I had my own theory around ep 2/3 that Loretta was Ben's mother but dismissed it because of her nonchalant attitude to his death.  Her being Dickie's mother is definitely a more plausible theory.  Can't remember if Dickie is the older or younger brother.  

I know we have a lot of new characters but I do miss seeing the everyday shenanigans of the building residents.  Since they're focusing on the stage aspect, the building people have been sidelined.

Loved seeing Sazz again.  Of course she's dating Jan now 🤦‍♀️.  It's always good to see her give Charles a much needed kick in the pants. I'm guessing Joy might be gone for good since it sets up nicely for Mabel to move in.

That said, I hope all the romantic travails of the three being them back together next episode.

[Rickster]

4 hours ago, chaifan said:

 

Loretta calling Ben a fucking pig is sort of weird.  That's generally an insult to use if someone is being sexist, not just a general asshole.  What was their argument about?

If I closed my eyes, the language in this show sometimes could make me think I’m watching an episode of The Sopranos.

[DoctorAtomic]

I actually would like the whole engagement to be off. I like the characters for sure, but I don't see anything wrong with Charles just being someone who is on his own. I don't think 'alone' is appropriate because he has the podcast and is in the play. 

[Crs97]

Count me in as someone who thought Joy was way too OTT.  I was fine that the engagement ended.

The tooth thing was icky.

 

[Yeah No]

16 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I’m with you. I’m often unsure if we’re getting new info or if I forgot what we’d already seen. Also, I think the show has ramped up their misdirects. 

Thanks, I needed a reality check.  Perhaps if I wasn't so busy this Summer catching up on all the things I didn't do because of Covid I might be more focused on this.
 

15 hours ago, cardigirl said:

We saw Charles threaten Ben, but we didn't see him punch him.

Ah, thanks.  If that happened last season no wonder I didn't remember it.  There's a lot of time between seasons with this show.  If you're bingeing it all at once or rewatching the previous season before watching the current one it might be easier to remember, but I think they should realize that a lot of people aren't doing that.  And some of us don't have the kinds of memories that remember every detail over that amount of time, especially now that we're retired and don't have to, LOL.  And you never know anymore with this show what's going to be an important detail either.
 

12 hours ago, chaifan said:

I totally agree.  There is -0- chemistry between Mabel and Tobert.  As there was -0- chemistry between Mabel and Alice last season.  Maybe Selena just doesn't have on-screen chemistry with other actors? 

I think she has plenty of chemistry with "the olds", Charles and Oliver.  Just not the romantic kind.

[Zaffy]

First, let me share with you how much I can't stand of the tall lady comedian, who I think she plays all her roles the same way. It is a big mystery for me why she is  considered a good actress. I find her the exact opposite of Meryl Streep.

I mostly enjoyed this, but, I  have noticed this trend in many series this year, I do not like splitting up your ensemble and keep it separately. Cause this whole show is this trio.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Zaffy

[KerleyQ]

On 8/29/2023 at 7:40 AM, cardigirl said:

If people are theorizing that Ben may have a twin, I guess Loretta could have given up a child for adoption. Ben, if he didn't know, could have been horrified when he found out. But that's all speculation at this point. This show is really good at giving wisps of information without revealing much of anything. LOL. 

I have four different theories (of various levels of "out there") on this now. Most of them are based on the theory that Loretta gave up some number of babies for adoption because she wanted to focus on being an actor, and she didn't feel she could focus on her career if she was a single mother. Her talking about being cursed to not succeed in acting is her thinking that it's her punishment for the adoption - that she won't get the thing she gave her child(ren) up for. 

1) My most outlandish. She had triplets, two identical, and one not, and gave them all up. Ben is one of the identicals, and he and his twin switched places regularly (which is why him getting a mark on his face or gaining weight from eating cookies would be such a big deal, because they need to look identical). Dickie is the third triplet. 

2) She gave up twins, and they've been doing the switching places thing for years. 

3) She had twins and gave them up to two different families. The non-Ben twin figured it out, after years of seeing Ben as a famous actor. He killed Ben that night on the stage, and then showed up in his place claiming to be a recovered Ben. Then he got killed, too. (Either by someone who thought he was Ben, or by someone who figured out what he did and confronted him). Or it was just Ben who died, and the non-Ben twin just took two times to kill him. 

4) She gave up Dickie. 

If Ben is one of her kids, I think that she wasn't interested in his career in a motherly way, like she regretted giving him up and wanted to be back in his life. I think that she was envious that one of the kids she gave up so she could pursue acting became a famous actor while her career stalled out. She probably got this role to try to get to know him and eventually reveal she's his mother, hoping to ride his coattails. If Dickie was her kid, she probably still wanted to make and exploit that connection to help her career. 

As for the tooth in this episode, I have a small theory there. Possibly, she gave the kids up to her parents to raise as their own. If so, they would have done the same traditions with them that she grew up with. And, if Dickie is one of those kids (or the only one), he may see Oliver with his missing tooth and mention his family's tooth ferry tradition. Or, if Dickie isn't one of her kids, that story could still come to light from Ben having told someone, like Dickie at some point, or an old childhood story he told Tobert during filming of his documentary. 

 

[sjankis630]

On 8/30/2023 at 2:53 PM, chaifan said:

But I love the pull out bookcases in the reading nook. 

The second I saw him pull it out I was like "where can I get a couple of those?" Seriously it would instantly solve a couple of my small bookcase problems

[shapeshifter]

32 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

I have four different theories (of various levels of "out there") on this now. Most of them are based on the theory that Loretta gave up some number of babies for adoption because she wanted to focus on being an actor, and she didn't feel she could focus on her career if she was a single mother. Her talking about being cursed to not succeed in acting is her thinking that it's her punishment for the adoption - that she won't get the thing she gave her child(ren) up for. 

1) My most outlandish. She had triplets, two identical, and one not, and gave them all up. Ben is one of the identicals, and he and his twin switched places regularly (which is why him getting a mark on his face or gaining weight from eating cookies would be such a big deal, because they need to look identical). Dickie is the third triplet. 

2) She gave up twins, and they've been doing the switching places thing for years. 

3) She had twins and gave them up to two different families. The non-Ben twin figured it out, after years of seeing Ben as a famous actor. He killed Ben that night on the stage, and then showed up in his place claiming to be a recovered Ben. Then he got killed, too. (Either by someone who thought he was Ben, or by someone who figured out what he did and confronted him). Or it was just Ben who died, and the non-Ben twin just took two times to kill him. 

4) She gave up Dickie. 

If Ben is one of her kids, I think that she wasn't interested in his career in a motherly way, like she regretted giving him up and wanted to be back in his life. I think that she was envious that one of the kids she gave up so she could pursue acting became a famous actor while her career stalled out. She probably got this role to try to get to know him and eventually reveal she's his mother, hoping to ride his coattails. If Dickie was her kid, she probably still wanted to make and exploit that connection to help her career. 

As for the tooth in this episode, I have a small theory there. Possibly, she gave the kids up to her parents to raise as their own. If so, they would have done the same traditions with them that she grew up with. And, if Dickie is one of those kids (or the only one), he may see Oliver with his missing tooth and mention his family's tooth ferry tradition. Or, if Dickie isn't one of her kids, that story could still come to light from Ben having told someone, like Dickie at some point, or an old childhood story he told Tobert during filming of his documentary. 

So, if any of these theories or variations of them is revealed in the second half of this season, OMITB Season 3 can be added as an example to wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_twin

[Pi237]

I couldn’t get past the throwing of the tooth. Maybe because dental care is so expensive, but all I could think about after that scene was-couldn’t he have gotten that put back in!? Or used as a model for a replacement? Was it a plate? Or an implant!? Seriously distracted me for the entire rest of the episode. 
 

Tobert (ugh that name) is hard to read, but so easy on the eyes. He can stay. But Joy? She’s way too much. 
 

This show is made on the main 3 characters chemistry. So, having them split off in different directions is a bit of a drag. 
 

Remember all the tunnels in the hotel? Did they ever address that? Or can people still get back there and spy on all the apartments?

[Quilt Fairy]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:40 AM, peeayebee said:

I’m reminded of when Carnivale was on.

Oh, I miss Carnivale.  Cancelled too soon.  It really needed a 3rd season to tie up loose ends.  One of the few shows where I bought the DVDs.

That show was why I got into TWoP.  And here I am, 20 (!) years later. 

[sjankis630]

8 hours ago, Pi237 said:

Remember all the tunnels in the hotel? Did they ever address that? Or can people still get back there and spy on all the apartments?

You know that is a great question. I mean not just the tunnels but the secret elevator that stops on each floor. I would have expected that they would be using those more often. I guess they have conveniently forgotten about them at this point.

[LadyintheLoop]

Or the building's management took steps to safeguard everyone's privacy.

Is the "twin" theory that one Ben died on stage and the other one died in the fall? If that's what happened, where's the first Ben's corpse?

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, LadyintheLoop said:

Is the "twin" theory that one Ben died on stage and the other one died in the fall? If that's what happened, where's the first Ben's corpse?

I suppose the original corpse could have been disposed of in various ways.
But I'm more inclined to think Ben faked his first death, and the second may have been more of an accident.

[Milburn Stone]

I just checked a map to confirm my memory. The Staten Island Ferry never goes near the Brooklyn Bridge, or any bridge. It docks at the Whitehall Terminal at the very tip of lower Manhattan.

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I just checked a map to confirm my memory. The Staten Island Ferry never goes near the Brooklyn Bridge, or any bridge. It docks at the Whitehall Terminal at the very tip of lower Manhattan.

True but it didn't look like the S.I. Ferry and there are other ferries that go from Manhattan to points in Brooklyn, Queens, like Rockaway, Governor's Island, Roosevelt Island, etc.,  and some look like they go near that and other bridges (see the map on this page).  But I admit I didn't look that closely at the bridge.  Are you sure it was the Brooklyn Bridge or could it have been the Manhattan Bridge or the 59th St. Bridge? (note I am calling these bridges by their old names because as a native NY-er I resist the recent name changes, LOL. ) 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Yeah No
typo as usual....

[Blakeston]

Joy's response to Charles's questions about the lipstick made here seem pretty shifty.

If she knew nothing about the lipstick message, then one would think she would be interested in hearing that a threatening message was left with her lipstick, and eager to help figure out who did it - instead of immediately acting threatened by the questions. It strongly suggested that she had something to hide.

[Crs97]

48 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Joy's response to Charles's questions about the lipstick made here seem pretty shifty.

If she knew nothing about the lipstick message, then one would think she would be interested in hearing that a threatening message was left with her lipstick, and eager to help figure out who did it - instead of immediately acting threatened by the questions.

Yes, Joy was ridiculous.  No one wants to be accused of murder, but her very specific lipstick was found in his dressing room with a horrible note so asking her about it wasn’t out of bounds.  Her behavior was already so manic that Charles was uncomfortable in his own place.  Of course he hadn’t talked to her about it first; her interactions were odd and steamrolled him.  I hope he enjoyed the remaining cake samples and considered himself lucky, though something tells me I am supposed to think he should be groveling to get her back.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Joy's response to Charles's questions about the lipstick made here seem pretty shifty.

If she knew nothing about the lipstick message, then one would think she would be interested in hearing that a threatening message was left with her lipstick, and eager to help figure out who did it - instead of immediately acting threatened by the questions. It strongly suggested that she had something to hide.

I'd agree if they had acted curious about the lipstick.  Like "hey, Joy, did you know if anyone else used or borrowed this lipstick? Someone used it to leave Ben a message."

But I got the impression that they all took an approach that she was guilty, which naturally would make her defensive.  If it were my fiance, I'd hope he'd have the attitude that of course there must be an innocent explanation as to why I'm connected to the lipstick rather than almost assuming it's nefarious. 

[Crs97]

I may not be remembering correctly, but I thought Charles tried that by saying she wouldn’t believe where they found it.  I thought she got defensive immediately.  I may have to watch again to see how it played out, though.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Joy's response to Charles's questions about the lipstick made here seem pretty shifty.

If she knew nothing about the lipstick message, then one would think she would be interested in hearing that a threatening message was left with her lipstick, and eager to help figure out who did it - instead of immediately acting threatened by the questions. It strongly suggested that she had something to hide.

It did, but these days when stuff like this happens I also consider that it might be yet another red herring thrown at us by the show to throw us off.  They've already made her a little touchy and manic (as someone else put it) so perhaps it wouldn't be out of the question for her to react like that even if innocent.  At this point they've already done similar stuff to make a few people look guilty and I suspect it's only going to continue until pretty much the entire cast looks guilty!

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I may not be remembering correctly, but I thought Charles tried that by saying she wouldn’t believe where they found it.  I thought she got defensive immediately.  I may have to watch again to see how it played out, though.

I'm remembering it the way you remembered it.  She overreacted defensively right away to what Charles said.

[peeayebee]

I don't think Joy's reaction made her an obvious suspect. At first Charles is being very casual about it, just saying, "Hey, guess where we found your lipstick. It was backstage!" But Joy's mind is on the wedding and the cake tasting, and then she gets distracted by her fish. Finally Charles says in a more serious manner, “Someone wrote a threatening message on Ben’s mirror with this. Do you know anything about that?” She responds, "You honestly think I had something to do with Ben’s death?" She seems more hurt than defensive.

Obviously we're supposed to suspect her, and her avoidance of answering the question directly is typical of crime shows. I do get annoyed in just about all detective shows when people are SOOO offended to even be asked questions about a crime.

 

[cardigirl]

I don't really think Joy did it, or at least, she did all of it. She may have been responsible for the first incident, as revenge for Charles, but I don't think she was the one pushing/shoving/accidentally tripping Ben down the elevator shaft. 

BUT ... I kind of hope she did. 

 

😁 😈

[Crs97]

6 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I do get annoyed in just about all detective shows when people are SOOO offended to even be asked questions about a crime.

THIS!

I don’t think Charles can have two murderous love interests so agree it’s probably just a red herring.

[Pi237]

Charles can use a fun girlfriend, but Joy just steamrolls over him like a hurricane.  But I doubt she’s guilty. This is like this first 45 minutes of Law & Order, so Joy can’t be the killer 

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I don't really think Joy did it, or at least, she did all of it. She may have been responsible for the first incident, as revenge for Charles, but I don't think she was the one pushing/shoving/accidentally tripping Ben down the elevator shaft. 

BUT ... I kind of hope she did. 

 

😁 😈

I don't know, I am thinking we are seeing Charles's paranoia and defensiveness, and she may actually turn out as some sort of hero. At least I think that is equally possible.

On 9/2/2023 at 12:12 PM, Yeah No said:

True but it didn't look like the S.I. Ferry and there are other ferries that go from Manhattan to points in Brooklyn, Queens, like Rockaway, Governor's Island, Roosevelt Island, etc.,  and some look like they go near that and other bridges (see the map on this page).  But I admit I didn't look that closely at the bridge.  Are you sure it was the Brooklyn Bridge or could it have been the Manhattan Bridge or the 59th St. Bridge? (note I am calling these bridges by their old names because as a native NY-er I resist the recent name changes, LOL. ) 

What are the new names of the bridges? I was pretty sure the Brooklyn Bridge, anyway, kept the same name?

[chitowngirl]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

I don't know, I am thinking we are seeing Charles's paranoia and defensiveness, and she may actually turn out as some sort of hero. At least I think that is equally possible.

What are the new names of the bridges? I was pretty sure the Brooklyn Bridge, anyway, kept the same name?

The 59th Street Bridge (Feelin’ Groovy🎶) is now the Ed Koch Queensboro Bridge or just the Queensboro. Triborough bridge is officially the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, chitowngirl said:

The 59th Street Bridge (Feelin’ Groovy🎶) is now the Ed Koch Queensboro Bridge or just the Queensboro. Triborough bridge is officially the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge

Ork!

[paramitch]

I feel weirdly guilty because I'm just not in love with this season. It feels dingy and slightly icky to me. And that bums me out, because it's always made me laugh, and I love the world-building of the building (hee) itself as a location --the fascinating little mysterious aspects, the kooky residents, the annual celebrity residents, etc.

This season just feels disconnected and sort of grotesque to me. I don't like the team split up the way they are.

And this season even more than before, the show is leaning into this utterly outlandish behavior from characters as if "oh well, the audience will accept it."

• We have stuff like Loretta not being able to cook like a regular person and mysteriously unable to use a stove for even basic food preparation (hey, I'm not judging, but if she's a non-cook, she could have gotten something and warmed it up, made him her one successful one-dish meal, etc.) -- I guess, all to clumsily set up the "Oliver loses a tooth when biting her pork chop" schtick? Like, seriously?
• Have any of these people ever actually eaten a pork chop? OR lost a tooth?
• Also -- the tooth thing was gross. And weird. And unrealistic. Oliver just blithely LOSES A FRONT TOOTH, says it doesn't hurt, sets the tooth aside, and goes on with his date? And Loretta is equally blase about it?! Seriously?! Was it a cap, a veneer, what? 
• Tobert uses false pretenses to get Mabel out on a date -- then talks about how "confident" he was in "succeeding" on the date (to slightly icky degrees) -- and it's not creepy? And I'm sorry, but he looks 20 years older than her and while he's a handsome guy with ridiculously beautiful eyes, they have no chemistry to me.
• And Mabel is smarter than showing Tobert the murder wall THAT FAST. Aghgh.

Speaking of out of character behavior -- why does Joy act absolutely unhinged, suspicious, and irrational until the plot suddenly requires her to be calm, kind, rational, and genuinely hurt at Charles's situation? Can she really not pause and listen to him? Does anyone actually make that kind of noise or mess when creating glass for their aquarium? (No. No they do not. They purchase sea glass, or they round/dull the edges themselves using a tumbler, etc.)

Actors also don't typically black out and have total out-of-body experiences while acting, either.

I don't mean to sound like such a jerk week after week this season, but I just think this feels like it was written hastily in one long weekend and every time someone got to a sticky plot point, they made up some stupid KRAZEE/SUS character moment and waved their hands like, "Meh! The audience will be fine with it!"

I mean, part of the fun of the first season was how genuinely invested I was in Nathan Lane's story, and in Oliver's money worries, and Charles's loneliness. I equally cared about last season's murder victim Bunny and the resident stories, and even Jan's continued quiet contained sly oddness.

But now everything is just a stupid gag with really famous people passing through.

• I miss our investigator trio spending time together as a found family.
• I miss the Arconia building as a character in its own right.
• I miss being truly invested in the victim and the outcome.
• I miss the little nuances among the residents and being invested in the quirks of their lives, love lives, pets, etc.
• Nobody feels real this season and the only stakes I am invested in are where Mabel is going to live.

The only extended sequence I've honestly liked this season so far was Mabel imagining Paul Rudd as a friend, because of what he meant to her childhood. I was sorry that was just a one-off because I haven't felt anything for anyone here since. (I mean, I liked the song, but it also felt completely unbelievable to me that it was part of this production or that Oliver would have written it.)

See? I'm grumpy and I don't like it. I usually love this show. I feel like I'm being mean here. Maybe I'm too critical right now.

On 8/29/2023 at 4:04 PM, cardigirl said:

I think I was mostly wondering why Oliver wasn't freaking out and finding someone to try and put it back in. If it was one of his own, adult teeth, he's gonna need it. Baby teeth are different. Now he'll have to get an implant or at least a bridge to fill that gap.  It's not a small thing to lose an adult tooth. That's why I was kind of weirded out by that whole thing. Why weren't they doing more to take care of his tooth? (I know, it was supposed to be a funny bit and I'm being far too literal.)

This bothered me so much!! Aghghg.

On 8/30/2023 at 8:13 AM, meep.meep said:

Who cooks pork chops in the microwave?  Or under a broiler when you have a perfectly good stove top burner and pans?  Who gets an invitation to "Dinner?" and assumes they have to cook it?

It's like this show is writing characters who are not actually required to act like actual people. It's driving me bonkers. It's like this season, especially, everyone just has to be "kooky!"

On 8/30/2023 at 8:30 AM, Yeah No said:

...with stuff that our crew is involved in, especially Charles, shouldn't that have been a topic of discussion between them toward the end of figuring out who the murderer is?  And wouldn't that have been one big honking potential clue that begged to be discussed and researched?

I'm not a fan of the show hiding the trio's behavior from us, like they did Charles's here. Just, nope. Charles is not a suspect, and I don't want him to be. I want him to solve crimes with Mabel and Oliver and to continue to improve his relationship with his daughter. 

On 8/30/2023 at 10:59 AM, Snapdragon said:

Speaking of break-ups, I felt so bad for Joy when she realized Charles hadn't meant to propose.  That was heartbreaking!  Maybe Charles will get his act together and can win her back but I don't blame her if she's done with him.

And while we're on the subject of relationships, is it really necessary for Mabel to have a love interest every season?  They're mostly terrible, have no chemistry with Mabel and she always ends up looking kind of dumb because she chooses the shadiest character to get involved with.  I mean, come on, Tobert isn't giving her creeper vibes?

I just rolled my eyes at the whole breakup thing because Joy is now a character with no center. She is sane when the script needs her to be. She is certifiable when the script needs her to be -- but of course, without recognizing that she is acting absolutely batshit in any way.

I was disappointed Mabel was paired up again so quickly, and especially with a guy so much older than she is. She deserves more than a Mabel's Seasonal Weird Romance subplot -- I want to know how she's going to stay at the Arconia! I want her to uncover those gorgeous murals she painted. I want her to work on her art and investigative skills.

On 8/30/2023 at 11:53 AM, chaifan said:

Speaking of chemistry, I loved Loretta and Oliver on the ferry, especially the bit about the 40 year old joint rolled in purple crepe paper.  I would love for Loretta to just be a normal love interest for Oliver, I really like them together.  THEY have chemistry! 

I still think Oliver's fooling himself and needs to find a nice guy to settle down with. 

But, okay, I could almost see him with Loretta if she wasn't so constantly sort of weird and kooky and unlikable. All of their romance scenes have me kind of wincing because they feel so completely false to me.

On 8/30/2023 at 1:48 PM, shapeshifter said:

I see a tiny bit of chemistry between Mabel and her seasonal love interests. I think the director may be deliberately keeping it toned down since it's a one-season fling.
Plus, when I was about Mabel's age, I'd have a brief fling once a year, hoping it would be the One. So it seems natural to me. But I am also aware that most people tend to hook up more often than that, usually within at least the confines of serial monogamy. But, I also see Mabel as more like me in an Odd Duck kind of way, so...

I'm an odd duck too, so let's hear it for the ducks! And I'm a fan of however many flings anyone has that suits them, whether 1 or 100. There are plenty of people out there who fit either.

I liked Mabel's fling last season because it enriched her character and told me something new about her. Alice was interesting for awhile, although for me it went too over the top and unstable by the end.

On 8/30/2023 at 3:26 PM, kittykat said:

I know we have a lot of new characters but I do miss seeing the everyday shenanigans of the building residents.  Since they're focusing on the stage aspect, the building people have been sidelined.

Loved seeing Sazz again.  Of course she's dating Jan now 🤦‍♀️.  It's always good to see her give Charles a much needed kick in the pants. I'm guessing Joy might be gone for good since it sets up nicely for Mabel to move in.

I agree 100% on the first part.

Meanwhile, I adore Jane Lynch and have forever as a character actress, but I feel like since she got famous, she's now too often just autopiloting "Jane Lynch!" in so many of her roles.

But then again, I admit a little Sazz goes a long way for me. Her being Charles's stunt double is just a one-note gag they keep repeating to death.

On 8/30/2023 at 9:04 PM, Crs97 said:

Count me in as someone who thought Joy was way too OTT.  I was fine that the engagement ended.

I hate scenes where a normal conversation doesn't take place. Joy acted hurt and surprised and affronted in the conversation with Charles, and neither one of them addressed the long list of absolutely bonkers behavior she has been exhibiting lately or why that would scare him. Grr.

On 8/31/2023 at 8:21 PM, Pi237 said:

I couldn’t get past the throwing of the tooth. Maybe because dental care is so expensive, but all I could think about after that scene was-couldn’t he have gotten that put back in!? Or used as a model for a replacement? Was it a plate? Or an implant!? Seriously distracted me for the entire rest of the episode. 

This show is made on the main 3 characters chemistry. So, having them split off in different directions is a bit of a drag. 

I agree with everything you say here!

On 8/31/2023 at 9:11 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

Oh, I miss Carnivale.  Cancelled too soon.  It really needed a 3rd season to tie up loose ends.  One of the few shows where I bought the DVDs.

That show was why I got into TWoP.  And here I am, 20 (!) years later. 

Aw, man, what a double whammy! "Carnivale" and TWOP! Sniffle. I loved both. I miss both. (And I will never be okay with the show's cancellation and abrupt ending, darn it.)

On 9/4/2023 at 1:37 PM, Pi237 said:

But I doubt she’s guilty. This is like this first 45 minutes of Law & Order, so Joy can’t be the killer 

Yeah, plus, add in my Mom's old "Murder, She Wrote" rule -- it's almost always the big guest star OR the mousy assistant/sycophant to the Big Guest Star!

Edited September 6, 2023 by paramitch
obviously I have tooth issues

[peeayebee]

Well, now that you put it that way. 😆

No, seriously, I agree with a lot of what you said.

Loretta can’t cook so Oliver can lose a tooth so they can go on the ferry so he can throw his tooth into the river because of Loretta's family tradition. I wonder -- and hope -- that there will be some significance to this, i.e., that it will be mentioned in connection with Ben and provide a clue that they are related. (If that is indeed the case.)

The stupid gags are really standing out to me. Maybe they've always been there but haven't seemed so forced before.

We’re not seeing enough of the Arconia residents. Maybe the various actors have been unavailable?

The trio apart is obviously happening so we can be happy when they finally get back together. It sucks, but I am looking forward to their solving the case together.

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

And Mabel is smarter than showing Tobert the murder wall THAT FAST. Aghgh.

I suppose one reason (other than plot contrivance) is because Mabel is desperate to work on this case, and since Charles and Oliver are distracted by other things, and Tobert is invested in the case, Mabel is gravitating toward him.

[Lugal]

13 hours ago, paramitch said:

I feel weirdly guilty because I'm just not in love with this season. It feels dingy and slightly icky to me. And that bums me out, because it's always made me laugh, and I love the world-building of the building (hee) itself as a location --the fascinating little mysterious aspects, the kooky residents, the annual celebrity residents, etc.

Yeah, it's definitely lost something this season.  The Arconia is a character itself and losing that fells like we've lost a central pillar of the show.  Not to mention all the recurring background characters, Teddy, Theo, Lucy, Ursula, Lester, the podcast fan club, etc.  Howard is the only Arconian we've seen regularly.

13 hours ago, paramitch said:

• I miss our investigator trio spending time together as a found family.
• I miss the Arconia building as a character in its own right.
• I miss being truly invested in the victim and the outcome.
• I miss the little nuances among the residents and being invested in the quirks of their lives, love lives, pets, etc.
• Nobody feels real this season and the only stakes I am invested in are where Mabel is going to live.

Pretty much all of this.  This season feels very unfocused.

[paramitch]

Thank you!

Another example I would give of the show being a "TV universe" that doesn't feel real enough this season -- Charles's omelets. Every day he makes those gorgeous omelets and THROWS THEM AWAY.

Why didn't this season show his daughter showing up for a morning omelette, reviving the tradition sometimes? Or Joy eating them with him? Or Oliver and Mabel joining him each morning for an omelet breakfast together?

Again, it is another sign that this show is written by people who are not even paying basic attention to the little things that make it feel real. 

One of the things I loved in season 1 was Oliver's money fears because it made him so vulnerable and more real to me. Now everything is solved so easily or the problems are shoved aside because they are all so rich now that nobody has real-people problems except Mabel, who is suffering but without any help from Oliver or Charles (and who meanwhile turns down unimaginable life-saving money for her work because she is a TV character who does not really face homelessness).

Anyway.

19 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Loretta can’t cook so Oliver can lose a tooth so they can go on the ferry so he can throw his tooth into the river because of Loretta's family tradition. I wonder -- and hope -- that there will be some significance to this, i.e., that it will be mentioned in connection with Ben and provide a clue that they are related. (If that is indeed the case.)

This is exactly what's bothering me. Everything feels like a gag setup. A long, overinvolved, gag that doesn't even make me laugh when we finally get to it.

11 hours ago, Lugal said:

Yeah, it's definitely lost something this season.  The Arconia is a character itself and losing that fells like we've lost a central pillar of the show.  Not to mention all the recurring background characters, Teddy, Theo, Lucy, Ursula, Lester, the podcast fan club, etc.  Howard is the only Arconian we've seen regularly.

I miss the residents so much. Look at how moving it was last season to get to know Bunny, an annoyance in season 1. But we looked closer and saw her humanity.

This season I was hoping would do this with Paul Rudd's character. I still hope they will. And I hope they would do it with Loretta's character too (still hoping).

Like, the dinner scene with Oliver -- what if she could cook, but her stove wasn't working great, she's broke and couldn't buy a good cut of meat? What if she had to buy box wine and put it in bottles to try to make him think she was better off? What if she was worried about her humbler circumstances?

For me, something like this would have been charming and real, and worked better than "this 60something woman does not know how to live in the real world or cook even a basic item for a date SHE asked him to attend."

See, I'm grumpy again. Sorry.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

This is exactly what's bothering me. Everything feels like a gag setup. A long, overinvolved, gag that doesn't even make me laugh when we finally get to it

Exactly. 
There are some different writers this season, but it feels like something more than that.

Edited September 7, 2023 by shapeshifter

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

This season I was hoping would do this with Paul Rudd's character. I still hope they will. And I hope they would do it with Loretta's character too (still hoping).

Wishing and hoping...

There was the scene where Oliver is helping Ben with his character or something, and I was surprised at how different Ben was. This may go with the theory that there are (at least) two Bens who have different personalities. Or it could have just been Ben showing a different side of himself, one more insecure than the public face he puts on.

There are a lot of things bugging me, but I keep thinking that they are each leading to something significant, that each annoyance has a purpose. Patience, grasshopper, I tell myself.  

[cardigirl]

30 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Wishing and hoping...

There was the scene where Oliver is helping Ben with his character or something, and I was surprised at how different Ben was. This may go with the theory that there are (at least) two Bens who have different personalities. Or it could have just been Ben showing a different side of himself, one more insecure than the public face he puts on.

There are a lot of things bugging me, but I keep thinking that they are each leading to something significant, that each annoyance has a purpose. Patience, grasshopper, I tell myself.  

I loved that scene and thought it showed what a great director Oliver could be. I didn't really think it revealed a "different" Ben, just showed Ben learning from Oliver. But I want MORE scenes like that. And like the scene of Mabel imagining her conversation with Ben. Very strong, beautiful scenes. 

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

I loved that scene and thought it showed what a great director Oliver could be.

I loved that scene, but then it made me annoyed that he always treats Charles so badly.  I’m struggling this season.