Shiny Happy People: Duggar Family Secrets - General Discussion

[CountryGirl]

So I finally finished the final two parts and so much to unload so apologize in advance for the disjointed thoughts, but that's what the subject matter of this documentary will do to you.

Having watched the show, I was fully aware of the BS "buddy system" and Mechelle pawning off childcare onto her older children but seeing that footage of her "I take care of them until weaning" again and that shit-eating smirk made me want to slap her. And I remember the tagline about how she gave birth to every one from 19K+C. That is all you did, you miserable excuse for a human being, let alone parent. The only way they were able to have their quiverfull is because they forced kids barely in their teens or younger to be the parents. Correction, they forced girls barely in their teens or younger to be mothers to these children. Who cares that they won't have appropriate growth and development when there are diapers to change and bottles to be fed and laundry to do?

More footage of ALERT and then being introduced to the Joshua generation, all of which scares the shit out of me to think there are these militant trainees circulating along with all of the other types of that ilk running amok. The seemingly benign and "cool" SM influencers working to ensnare followers of their hateful, though prettily-packaged (puke) rhetoric

Jill and her siblings not named inmate being exploited for years by their skinflint millionaire parents. 

Gothard's brother proving the "apples don't fall" analogy and for whom Gothard provided even more resources toward his disgusting proclivities.

All of the women and girls who were abused by Gothard and its teachings. I shudder to think of how many victims there are and the ones in the making. Many of whom will turn around and victimize their own spouse or children.

Turning my attention to Jill for a moment. For someone like her who was raised and (what I would consider) brainwashed (the irony) for roughly two decades to believe truth = lies and lies = truth with their church cult beliefs and teachings and then you add in the sexual abuse where it was her and her sisters' faults for enticing inmate in the first place, watching it get swept under the rug and inmate goes off to DC like the golden boy he was deemed to be, neither she nor her sisters get any therapy for their trauma but, instead, are made to help sweep it under the rug and when it's outed publicly, forced to minimize the truth and defend their abuser.  With all of that gaslighting and manipulation, it is any wonder she is who she is today? 

Experiencing CSAB alone is a lot to unpack - it took me years in therapy to even admit that it had happened as I had compartmentalized it to the extent I could make myself believe it never happened (as who wants to be someone's victim and in my case, I was abused by more than one person) let alone recognize that it had happened many times and the full extent, that it was wrong on the part of my abusers, and that I had done nothing to deserve it or cause it or feel ashamed of. Jill has only recently gotten what I would consider real therapy. 

At least I, on some level, knew what was happening to me and had happened was wrong, Jill and her siblings and inmate's other victims (and I'll always believe the stated total, five, was just the tip of the iceberg) were made to feel that nothing wrong had happened, but if it did,  they were in the wrong, that they caused it, and that "it" wasn't even that bad (the whole BS about mild touching over clothing and while they were asleep). 

Joy, who was five at the time, didn't even know what happened to her for certain until she attended inmate's trial last year. I can't imagine the mindfuckery of that? Having fleeting memories as a five-year-old and being told none of it was real or it wasn't "this," but "that", and no choice but to believe. 

I want to see who Jill, Jinger, Jessa, and Joy become in the next decade or several decades if that is what it takes. For Jill, who she is now is not the girl we saw on 19K+C or even the Jill of Counting On. When I think about the layers upon layers of false teachings, inclusive of slut-shaming and punishments rebranded as "encouragements" and the CSAB that adds an entirely other layer of complexity to work through, I don't think it's a stretch to say that it will take a lifetime likely for her to unpack all of that and the same for her siblings, Jinger, Jessa, and Joy especially. Of them all, I have the most hope for Jill even if I know she will likely have some views I disagree with as will her husband. But as long as there is life, there is hope. The baby steps she has taken thus far, including being a participant in this documentary and upcoming book where she not only calls out Gothard/IBLP but her own family, are huge for someone like her. 

Speaking of, there was a lot more to her "brainwashing" comment as I suspected there would be. This ended up on the cutting room floor, which is a shame:

Jill: Which is true, that those things can happen, but-"

Derick: But you teach your children to think for themselves, too."

Jill: Yeah, but you have to also...it comes to a point where, and this is I think is the biggest thing, trust in God. What is God leading you to do? Yes, you don't throw your kids out to the wolves and you use some discernment. And I feel a lot of these parents feel like they are but I think independence is a good thing and you need to encourage that in your kids."

I think there is more but that's the dialogue I found elsewhere thus far. 

On a positive and healing note, seeing the survivors of the IBLP regime, Jill included, reveal how they are slowly finding their way to a  place of peace, shedding the beliefs foisted upon them, and starting fresh, healthy lives was beautiful to watch. There is a part where they discuss how they realized they had the perfect weapon to strike back at IBLP which was to use their voice. To, as Chad Harris put it, "talk." 

The tears really fell for me then - happy tears, mostly, but just the recognition of how powerful and healing it is to use one's voice, even if it's just to yourself to speak the truth out loud.

One of my favorite quotes is "speak the truth, even if your voice shakes." For me, speaking out about what happened to me, shining a big ol' spotlight on it and calling it by its name, instead of white-washing or rug-sweeping, helps to prevent it from festering in the dark and the secrecy, the shame and the deceit, the very things trauma and abuse feed off of and perpetuate need to continue to exist, was jumping off of a cliff scary but so incredibly healing. 

[oliviabenson]

Season 2 might happen?!

[Zella]

In her comments, the producer made it clear she was very eager to do a second season, but it is in no way guaranteed or seemingly even in the works. She urged people to reach out to Amazon to ask for more of it.

[smittykins]

On 6/4/2023 at 1:14 PM, Absolom said:

Then he failed.  The house was never classified as a church for taxes.  

That myth has been around for years, just like “The Duggars get free healthcare for life because JB served in the Arkansas House of Representatives.”

[EtheltoTillie]

Jill really seems to have PTSD and just breaks up when she has to talk about her abuse.  She says she wishes it were never revealed.  I feel so bad for her. 

There's a new video about Anna's reaction to the series on WACB, but I can't stand her drawn-out yammerings.  Can anyone give the TLDR version? 

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Jill really seems to have PTSD and just breaks up when she has to talk about her abuse.  She says she wishes it were never revealed.  I feel so bad for her. 

There's a new video about Anna's reaction to the series on WACB, but I can't stand her drawn-out yammerings.  Can anyone give the TLDR version? 

I read that she thinks Jill, Derick and Amy are all toxic. Not sure if it is true and I haven't seen anything else on it. If she does think that, hey honey, you are married to a pedophile. 

[EtheltoTillie]

12 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I read that she thinks Jill, Derick and Amy are all toxic. Not sure if it is true and I haven't seen anything else on it. If she does think that, hey honey, you are married to a pedophile. 

I don't know if she even knows what that word means.  She only knows she feels hurt because she is projecting onto others the harm done by Felon.  I doubt she could articulate any of that as she lives in a brainwashed bubble. 

[Zella]

Amy posted some stuff on social media about Anna in the wake of the trial that was pretty shitty in that she kept both claiming she was there for Anna but also berating her and shaming her for not wanting her help. So, I can see why Anna would dislike her for a legitimate reason. That being said, Amy being a self-righteous attention whore asshole isn't anywhere near on the same level as Josh being an actual child molester. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Zella

[EtheltoTillie]

Another thing new to me in this documentary was the stuff about the Holts's daughter being a previous "girlfriend" of Josh's (I was surprised they were using that word).  I hadn't known any of that.  They dodged a bullet. 

The TLC show had to capitalize on the Josh/Anna wedding, so they didn't mention that Josh had ever "courted" anyone else.  The Duggars must have been more careful to keep Anna and her parents in the dark.  Or maybe they knew and didn't care--they thought he was redeemed.  Anyone know more about this? 

[Salacious Kitty]

59 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Another thing new to me in this documentary was the stuff about the Holts's daughter being a previous "girlfriend" of Josh's (I was surprised they were using that word).  I hadn't known any of that.  They dodged a bullet. 

The TLC show had to capitalize on the Josh/Anna wedding, so they didn't mention that Josh had ever "courted" anyone else.  The Duggars must have been more careful to keep Anna and her parents in the dark.  Or maybe they knew and didn't care--they thought he was redeemed.  Anyone know more about this? 

The Holts knew everything, yet they allowed their daughter to become "betrothed" to the Felon. As noted in the docuseries, they planned to tell Kayleigh after she was married to him 

Likewise, Anna claims that she knew that said felon had sinned, but she has never said if she knew the details before they were outed by In Touch. She did say that he'd repented, blah blah blah. That was the Duggar party line as they circled the wagons in defense of the felon. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[jcbrown]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

The Holts knew everything, yet they allowed their daughter to become "betrothed" to the Felon. As noted in the docuseries, they planned to tell Kayleigh after she was married to him 

Likewise, Anna claims that she knew that said felon had sinned, but she has never said if she knew the details before outed by In Touch. She did say that he'd repented, blah blah blah. That was the Duggar party line as they circled the wagons in defense of the felon. 

I thought that it was the Duggars who said they were going to let felon confess to Kayleigh after they were married and that the Holts did not know everything until InTouch brought it to light. Not sure that makes sense from a timeline perspective, come to think of it. These people are all such slippery liars.

My memory of what Anna knew is in synch with yours.

[Salacious Kitty]

We know from Bobye's testimony at the evidentiary hearing that the Felon confessed everything to her and Jim when he was about 15. They knew and STILL allowed the betrothal to stand, at least for a while. It's not clear when that ended, and the Felon was "free" to pursue poor Anna. 

[Blake]

Who was the lady who beat her 14-month-old and where is she now? Did she ever get reported to law-enforcement? Also, where did you read that, @Salacious Kitty

[Salacious Kitty]

1 hour ago, Blake said:

Who was the lady who beat her 14-month-old and where is she now? Did she ever get reported to law-enforcement? Also, where did you read that, @Salacious Kitty

I read about that family on Free Jinger. There are people on that site who lived IBLP. 

No clue what became of her after she was blackballed by the IBLP after her divorce.

[CeeBeeGee]

Working my way through the series. Jesus. This is beyond depressing. I'm in the middle if the second episode and the woman who tells--with a GIANT smile--about spanking--spanking--her 14-month-old "all day long"--JESUS.

I work with kids. This is just completely depressing. 

And the lives (other than beatings) these little ones lead! (To say nothing of the fact that your own parents couldn't pick you out of a lineup.) They can't read any books that aren't GOD GOD GOD, they can't watch any TV, their interactions with even their siblings is severely curtailed and made weird--how are their brains supposed to be engaged if all they're doing is reading those "Wisdom Booklets"? Where are the colors, where are the dolls, where are the games? I am weeping at how poor their inner lives must've been, how unengaged these kids must've been. They should've been playing hide and seek (with both brothers and sisters), climbing trees, reading any book they wanted, smarting off to their parents, giggling with their parents--anything but this meek, toes-on-the-line brand-savvy anodyne blandness. I just want to sweep in and wrap them in huge hugs. I hate these parents. How dare you make 11 year olds become parents because you're too fucking lazy?

Every time that woman looks adoringly up at her worthless husband, an angel loses its wings.

[merylinkid]

7 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I am weeping at how poor their inner lives must've been, how unengaged these kids must've been.

That's what the parents want.   Kids with no inner lives and unengaged so all they can do is obey.   Never mind the Bible EXPLICITLY says we have free will so we can choose to love God.   That love without choice isn't really love of God.   With these folks, its about obedience, not the Big Guy in the Nightgown in the Sky.  

[mostlylurking]

I’m on episode 3 and want to back through these comments because you all know way more than I do. I haven’t really followed the Duggar’s at all except for I remember when Josie was born prematurely and of course the Josh stuff.

I felt really badly for Jill. Even the way she speaks it’s quite obvious she didn’t receive any type of substantive education. I’m glad she’s speaking out. She did call her father controlling and said she wasn’t compensated. I didn’t really find anything wrong with her husband, he didn’t say much but of course I don’t know much about him.

Amy’s husband on the other hand, while he also didn’t say much he came off as smarmy to me.  I instantly disliked him.  Same with the Holt guy.

I’m only on episode 3 but I’m hoping they will follow up with some of the other children and where they are now, especially what’s going on with Josh’s wife and kids (I know there’s a bunch of them).

I’m fascinated by all this cult stuff and how they work.  It just blows my mind how much destruction they cause and how the cycle continues.  Terrifying.

 

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, mostlylurking said:

I’m on episode 3 and want to back through these comments because you all know way more than I do. I haven’t really followed the Duggar’s at all except for I remember when Josie was born prematurely and of course the Josh stuff.

I felt really badly for Jill. Even the way she speaks it’s quite obvious she didn’t receive any type of substantive education. I’m glad she’s speaking out. She did call her father controlling and said she wasn’t compensated. I didn’t really find anything wrong with her husband, he didn’t say much but of course I don’t know much about him.

Amy’s husband on the other hand, while he also didn’t say much he came off as smarmy to me.  I instantly disliked him.  Same with the Holt guy.

I’m only on episode 3 but I’m hoping they will follow up with some of the other children and where they are now, especially what’s going on with Josh’s wife and kids (I know there’s a bunch of them).

I’m fascinated by all this cult stuff and how they work.  It just blows my mind how much destruction they cause and how the cycle continues.  Terrifying.

 

Jill's husband is a horse's patootie who publicly attacked a transgender teen online, amongst other things.  His main gripe against his FIL is that he didn't pay them.  And, now, that he didn't pay them enough.  While Derrick seems supportive of Jill in the documentary, he's never spoken out against the way she was raised or the molestation although he was one of the few who was in court every day during the trial.  He shares many of the Duggar's hateful beliefs and his kids are apparently being homeschooled by Jill who is hardly teacher material.  Jill has spoken about wanting to raise her children the same way she was raised (instant obedience, blanket training, etc) and he's never contradicted that.

Amy's husband is an a**.  He did get off a good one when he talked about Michelle's baby voice though, which was a fine moment and totally unexpected coming from him.  

Anna and the 7 kids are all living on the Duggar compound under JB's 'umbrella of protection'.  Even if the filmmakers wanted to talk to her about her life today and that of her kids; JB would never let it happen.  There is also quite a bit of evidence that Anna thinks Josh is innocent and its a plot by the godless to keep him from his family.  She drank all the Kool Aid and, as long as she needs JB to support her (probably forever), it is unlikely she will change her mind.  One of her brothers, who escaped fundie life, offered her a chance to escape years ago, when the molestations first became public.  She only had maybe 5 kids then, but she didn't go.  

Edited June 8, 2023 by Notabug

[lascuba]

 

 

17 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Another thing new to me in this documentary was the stuff about the Holts's daughter being a previous "girlfriend" of Josh's (I was surprised they were using that word).  I hadn't known any of that.  They dodged a bullet. 

The TLC show had to capitalize on the Josh/Anna wedding, so they didn't mention that Josh had ever "courted" anyone else.  The Duggars must have been more careful to keep Anna and her parents in the dark.  Or maybe they knew and didn't care--they thought he was redeemed.  Anyone know more about this? 

The "relationship" between Josh the Holt's daughter was mentioned in the first special. Of course, they didn't outright state that they were betrothed,  but in their circles everyone knew what was up.

15 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

We know from Bobye's testimony at the evidentiary hearing that the Felon confessed everything to her and Jim when he was about 15. They knew and STILL allowed the betrothal to stand, at least for a while. It's not clear when that ended, and the Felon was "free" to pursue poor Anna. 

I think it ended when Josh was caught watching porn during Jim Holt's campaign. That seems to be when the family friendship ended.

[mmecorday]

I have watched all the Duggar shows in all their various incarnations over the years. I am an only child and I have always liked watching shows about big families. 

At some point I realized that as much as the children smiled, you could see pain and fear in their eyes. This was particularly true of the older girls. And now I know why. They essentially lived in a forced labor camp from the day they were born. Most of us had chores when we were growing up, but these kids were never allowed to be kids. The girls were handed a living baby when they should have been playing with dolls. The boys were given power tools to help construct that mega house when they should have just been playing with toys. 

Michelle never seemed interested in the younger kids -- except for precious Josie. Mothering was never her strong suit. Having babies was her shtick. She sees her children as the physical manifestations of God's blessing on her. She paraded them around in birth order. She bragged about giving birth to every one of them. But she didn't raise them. Her daughters did. On top of all the other things they had to do to keep the household running. How many loads of laundry has Jana Duggar washed, folded and put away in her 33 years? How many meals have she and her sister planned, cooked and served to their siblings? I had the day off yesterday and cleaned my 1000-square foot home and, did four loads of laundry and cooked supper. At the end of the day I was exhausted. Then I sat down and watched an episode of this docuseries and I wanted to cry for these young women. How tired they must have been all the time. But they couldn't complain or say no because of their parents' absolute authority over their lives. 

I remember when the Duggar took a trip (I think) to New York City. One of the little boys strayed from the group and was temporarily lost, which must have been terrifying for the little tyke. He was found and when returned to the fold he was comforted by the sister responsible for his care. I wonder now, was his fear compounded by the fact that disobeying his parents' order not to stray from the group would surely result in an "encouragement?" 

[EtheltoTillie]

12 minutes ago, mmecorday said:

 

n they should have been playing with dolls. The boys were given power tools to help construct that mega house when they should have just been playing with toys. 

 them. Her daughters did. On top of all the other things they had to do to keep the household running. How many loads of laundry has Jana Duggar washed, folded and put away in her 33 years? How

I

So much forced labor!  I couldn't believe that all those minor children were also set up on construction sites at those ALERT compounds.  Just like Scientology Sea Org, as was mentioned above.

Remember they also used to show poor Grandma Duggar doing a million loads of laundry?   Contributed to her early death. 

And the emptiness of just reading Wisdom Booklets full of word salad and memorizing Bible verses. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[Avaleigh]

On 6/2/2023 at 6:46 PM, jcbrown said:

I watched it all this afternoon. I didn't see much, if anything, that I didn't know but the two most chilling parts, for me, were seeing ALERT on film and the segment with parents talking about techniques to use to beat their children and strategies to break the kids' wills. I knew they did it, but something about seeing an audience of people LAUGHING when a grown man pretends to beat a child and that woman who talked about her disobedient 14 month-old (or thereabouts) were worse than I anticipated.

This really got to me. As someone who was beaten as a child by my parents with belts, rulers, hairbrushes and even electric cords--seeing a roomful of people laughing about this sort of abuse and actively teaching and encouraging others to abuse their children made me see red. It's so disheartening to know how many people still think this sort of behavior is okay.

The blanket training stuff makes me so sad. It's cruel. This woman and her baby voice knowing that she did this to 19 human beings and is apparently encouraging other parents to do the same just has me feeling so sad for the kids who are going to needlessly suffer. My baby is almost two and I would never. 

I didn't expect this to be so triggering. I've lurked on the Duggar forums and I'm familiar with the basics, but they're mostly outside of my wheelhouse. I'm more familiar with LDS fundamentalism. (Which, as insane as it sounds, contains even more horrific stories than the Gothard group.)

For the people who are more versed in all things Duggar--is Jill fully estranged from her parents or are they still in contact? Are they a part of any other cult?

I keep seeing it referenced here that Jinger apart of a different cult now. What's the deal with that cult and is she estranged from JB and M? 

Where does Princess Jessa come up in all of this? Is she on good terms with Jill and Jinger? 

One takeaway I had from that sad Megyn Kelly interview was the way Jessa looked at Jill when Jill started crying. It was like she thought Jill was going off script and seemed almost annoyed or embarrassed that Jill's real feelings were coming out in that moment. It gave me a vibe and made me side eye her ever since.

Last question--are there any updates on Jana? Is she still a slave to JB and M? Did she ever say why she hasn't married? Nothing wrong with her not marrying if she doesn't want to, I just figured she might eventually want to escape from JB and M.

[Zella]

44 minutes ago, Notabug said:

Amy's husband is an a**.  

He also apparently threw her cat during an argument. 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Avaleigh said:

This really got to me. As someone who was beaten as a child by my parents with belts, rulers, hairbrushes and even electric cords--seeing a roomful of people laughing about this sort of abuse and actively teaching and encouraging others to abuse their children made me see red. It's so disheartening to know how many people still think this sort of behavior is okay.

The blanket training stuff makes me so sad. It's cruel. This woman and her baby voice knowing that she did this to 19 human beings and is apparently encouraging other parents to do the same just has me feeling so sad for the kids who are going to needlessly suffer. My baby is almost two and I would never. 

I didn't expect this to be so triggering. I've lurked on the Duggar forums and I'm familiar with the basics, but they're mostly outside of my wheelhouse. I'm more familiar with LDS fundamentalism. (Which, as insane as it sounds, contains even more horrific stories than the Gothard group.)

For the people who are more versed in all things Duggar--is Jill fully estranged from her parents or are they still in contact? Are they a part of any other cult?

I keep seeing it referenced here that Jinger apart of a different cult now. What's the deal with that cult and is she estranged from JB and M? 

Where does Princess Jessa come up in all of this? Is she on good terms with Jill and Jinger? 

One takeaway I had from that sad Megyn Kelly interview was the way Jessa looked at Jill when Jill started crying. It was like she thought Jill was going off script and seemed almost annoyed or embarrassed that Jill's real feelings were coming out in that moment. It gave me a vibe and made me side eye her ever since.

Last question--are there any updates on Jana? Is she still a slave to JB and M? Did she ever say why she hasn't married? Nothing wrong with her not marrying if she doesn't want to, I just figured she might eventually want to escape from JB and M.

• As of last month Jill still had contact with her mom of some of her siblings.
• Jinger and Jeremy attend MacArthur's church - Grace Church, in LA and seem to have a relationship with the entire Duggar clan.
• Jessa is still fully Duggarfied and does have occasional contact with Jill and Jinger.
• Jana still lives at home, but its rumored she has a she-shack in the backyard.

[Salacious Kitty]

12 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

• As of last month Jill still had contact with her mom of some of her siblings.
• Jinger and Jeremy attend MacArthur's church - Grace Church, in LA and seem to have a relationship with the entire Duggar clan.
• Jessa is still fully Duggarfied and does have occasional contact with Jill and Jinger.
• Jana still lives at home, but its rumored she has a she-shack in the backyard.

The she shack isn't a rumor. Jana has been pictured in it with a couple of the Howler brothers. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Salacious Kitty
Isnot squished together

[GeeGolly]

Just now, Salacious Kitty said:

The she shack isnot a rumor. Jana has been pictured in it with a couple of the Howler brothers. 

Yes! I should have been more clear - its rumored she lives in the she-shack.

[AgathaC]

Michelle us definitely missing some sort of sympathy/empathy chip. I recall one of the younger boys (sorry — they all blend together for me, as I’m sure they do their parents) fell through a stage door or into an orchestra pit or something and was injured. Let’s just say her response was not typically maternal. I would have been more horrified and caring towards that poor kid and I don’t even know which one he was.

Similar, if less dramatic, was when little Jordyn got her head stuck between stair rails. The poor child was scared and upset and Michelle was laughing. Jim Bob of all people had to admonish her that it wasn’t funny and try to help the kid.

All that to say, I don’t think IBLP is the only problem in that house…

[Absolom]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Yes! I should have been more clear - its rumored she lives in the she-shack.

The she shack and the tiny house are two different structures. 

[Avaleigh]

On 6/1/2023 at 7:46 PM, Notabug said:

First hour is pretty standard 'setting the scene'.  Second episode delves into IBLP and Gothard and includes the stories of multiple other people raised in IBLP who have now left.  Haven't gotten into Gothard's crimes yet, but it seems to be coming.

Regarding Gothard--what's the deal with this asshole not being married and having a bunch of kids? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that no woman had the misfortune to have to be this jerk's wife, it just strikes me as odd that people are willing to listen to him about marriage and parenting without him ever actually experiencing either. Considering marriage and lots of kids is a huge part of the IBLP brand and lifestyle, it's weird that the king of the organization isn't expected to walk the walk. How does he justify it? Why doesn't he want these "blessings"?

I feel like the Duggars are just the tip of the iceberg here. I'm sure that there are horror stories in a lot of these IBLP families. 

If they do a second season, I'd like to hear more survivor stories. I'm glad that there are people who have been able step away from the cult and come to terms with how harmful it is. 

I think another take away for me was the kids spending time doing useless stuff like the exercise where they have to look at women's fashion and spot what makes each garment slutty. And of course they only have to do this with women's clothing. These people would rather have their kids do that than have them be properly educated. SMH.

I also appreciated the series mentioning how a lot of this homeschooling started as a response to schools being desegregated. So these people would rather their children receive a subpar education than have them attend schools with a diverse mix of people? Wow. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it's still hard to hear.

[Salacious Kitty]

9 minutes ago, Absolom said:

The she shack and the tiny house are two different structures. 

We jokingly call Jana's pad the she shack. 😀

[BetyBee]

The Leaving Eden podcast latest episode is about Shiny Happy People. It's very good, though I haven't finished it yet. 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

If they do a second season, I'd like to hear more survivor stories. I'm glad that there are people who have been able step away from the cult and come to terms with how harmful it is. 

I'd like them to expand on other Christian cults of the same ilk because I got the sense that some of the talking heads and survivors in this series would love to make it all about IBLP even though some of its teachings/beliefs aren't exclusive to that group. 

[mostlylurking]

3 hours ago, Notabug said:

Jill's husband is a horse's patootie who publicly attacked a transgender teen online, amongst other things.  His main gripe against his FIL is that he didn't pay them.  And, now, that he didn't pay them enough.  While Derrick seems supportive of Jill in the documentary, he's never spoken out against the way she was raised or the molestation although he was one of the few who was in court every day during the trial.  He shares many of the Duggar's hateful beliefs and his kids are apparently being homeschooled by Jill who is hardly teacher material.  Jill has spoken about wanting to raise her children the same way she was raised (instant obedience, blanket training, etc) and he's never contradicted that.

Wow.  I guess it’s a good thing he was mostly silent in this.

2 hours ago, AgathaC said:

Michelle us definitely missing some sort of sympathy/empathy chip. I recall one of the younger boys (sorry — they all blend together for me, as I’m sure they do their parents) fell through a stage door or into an orchestra pit or something and was injured. Let’s just say her response was not typically maternal. I would have been more horrified and caring towards that poor kid and I don’t even know which one he was.

Similar, if less dramatic, was when little Jordyn got her head stuck between stair rails. The poor child was scared and upset and Michelle was laughing. Jim Bob of all people had to admonish her that it wasn’t funny and try to help the kid.

I do remember her being very robotic and that creepy baby voice, ugh.  Makes her even scarier honestly.  I always wondered was she heavily medicated or just really that completely brainwashed?  Jim Bob at least seemed to have feelings, she was just always a space cadet. I also remember her saying before she met JB she had a “normal” upbringing, she dated and she used to mow the grass in her swim suit.  How she could go from that to what she became….it’s just insane.

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Regarding Gothard--what's the deal with this asshole not being married and having a bunch of kids? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that no woman had the misfortune to have to be this jerk's wife, it just strikes me as odd that people are willing to listen to him about marriage and parenting without him ever actually experiencing either. Considering marriage and lots of kids is a huge part of the IBLP brand and lifestyle, it's weird that the king of the organization isn't expected to walk the walk. How does he justify it? Why doesn't he want these "blessings"?

Probably he’s gay and repressing it with all this ultra conservative stuff, which happens a lot.  Sad. He’s destroying other people’s lives.

Edited June 8, 2023 by mostlylurking

[Future Cat Lady]

11 minutes ago, mostlylurking said:

Probably he’s gay and repressing it with all this ultra conservative stuff, which happens a lot.  Sad.

I always thougnt he might only like teenagers/young women. IIRC, all of his victims were around that age group. If he married, his wife would age.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Future Cat Lady

[quarks]

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Last question--are there any updates on Jana? Is she still a slave to JB and M? Did she ever say why she hasn't married? Nothing wrong with her not marrying if she doesn't want to, I just figured she might eventually want to escape from JB and M.

 

My personal theory is that Jana met her brothers-in-law - especially Jeremy - and said, yeah, I am so not doing this.

For evidence, I point to the four of them on social media. 

[Angeltoes]

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

it just strikes me as odd that people are willing to listen to him about marriage and parenting without him ever actually experiencing either.

No different than Catholic priests.

[Avaleigh]

8 minutes ago, Angeltoes said:

No different than Catholic priests.

To me the difference is that priests aren't allowed to get married. Additionally, this guy makes it seem like having a large amount of children is incredibly important, so it's odd to me that his followers give him a pass from not leading by example. 

[CeeBeeGee]

On 6/3/2023 at 11:23 AM, Heathen said:

Like the state of Texas trying to rebrand the Middle Passage as the innocuously-named "Triangular Trade." Anything to avoid accountability, and guilt, for white people. 

I don't know anything about Texas but the Triangle Trade refers to trade between the Americas, Europe and Africa (of which the Middle Passage refers to the leg of the triangle from Africa to the Americas). The phrase has been around for a long time and there's a song about it in the musical 1776. 

How is Texas using the phrase?

 

4 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

So much forced labor!  I couldn't believe that all those minor children were also set up on construction sites at those ALERT compounds.  Just like Scientology Sea Org, as was mentioned above.

And FLDS.

[Avaleigh]

22 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

And FLDS.

I definitely noticed some similarities. Not only with the forced child labor but with things like Michelle's soft spoken baby voice way of talking. So many of the FLDS women are encouraged to "keep sweet" and they end up sounding just like Michelle. 

Another thing that reminded me of FLDS was the stuff with the hair. The women have to wear their hair to keep in line with the preferences of the men. They show a video of one of the girls (I think Jill) saying they have to have long hair because JB likes long hair. Or that one woman making sure she had curls in her hair because Gothard likes curls. These people aren't even allowed to wear their hair the way they want. It reminds me of FLDS women being forced to wear their hair in the braids and bouffant combo. 

The Duggars might not be wearing the prairie dresses, but when you look at those older videos when they're all dressed alike, it wasn't that far off the mark. Their way of dressing also reminded me of the Turpin family.

[Heathen]

3 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I don't know anything about Texas but the Triangle Trade refers to trade between the Americas, Europe and Africa (of which the Middle Passage refers to the leg of the triangle from Africa to the Americas). The phrase has been around for a long time and there's a song about it in the musical 1776. 

How is Texas using the phrase?

Triangular Trade. A high-school geography book in Texas(s) called the Middle Passage "Triangular Trade" and enslaved people "workers." The same textbook mentioned indentured European servants who came here for economic reasons, but conveniently neglected to mention how and why African slaves got here. It was whitewashing -- diminishing the human impact of trade in enslaved people. Not only that, calling the Middle Passage by the same name as trade involving ordinary goods like rum or sugar is profoundly offensive.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/06/us/publisher-promises-revisions-after-textbook-refers-to-african-slaves-as-workers.html

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/oct/05/mcgraw-hill-textbook-slaves-workers-texas

 

[estellasmum]

6 hours ago, Zella said:

He also apparently threw her cat during an argument. 

Derick tried to run over a cat with a sled. No apparently about him, though. There's video.

[jcbrown]

20 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Working my way through the series. Jesus. This is beyond depressing. I'm in the middle if the second episode and the woman who tells--with a GIANT smile--about spanking--spanking--her 14-month-old "all day long"--JESUS.

I work with kids. This is just completely depressing. 

And the lives (other than beatings) these little ones lead! (To say nothing of the fact that your own parents couldn't pick you out of a lineup.) They can't read any books that aren't GOD GOD GOD, they can't watch any TV, their interactions with even their siblings is severely curtailed and made weird--how are their brains supposed to be engaged if all they're doing is reading those "Wisdom Booklets"? Where are the colors, where are the dolls, where are the games? I am weeping at how poor their inner lives must've been, how unengaged these kids must've been. They should've been playing hide and seek (with both brothers and sisters), climbing trees, reading any book they wanted, smarting off to their parents, giggling with their parents--anything but this meek, toes-on-the-line brand-savvy anodyne blandness. I just want to sweep in and wrap them in huge hugs. I hate these parents. How dare you make 11 year olds become parents because you're too fucking lazy?

Every time that woman looks adoringly up at her worthless husband, an angel loses its wings.

I don't have anything meaningful to add, I'm just quoting you because I could only applaud your post the once and I wanted to appreciate again how spot-on I find all of it.

[merylinkid]

Finally had a chance to binge it (life got a little busy).    I am still processing but two things:

1.   Michelle was cheerleader we KNOW she can yell.

2.  There is a special place in hell reserved for all who supported and promoted this cult.

[CeeBeeGee]

2 hours ago, jcbrown said:

I don't have anything meaningful to add, I'm just quoting you because I could only applaud your post the once and I wanted to appreciate again how spot-on I find all of it.

Thank you for your kind words. I find myself so enraged about this. Who the hell gives a board game about going to Hell to children? They must've been terrified playing that. Just imagine being 5 or 6 and playing that. I absolutely believed in Hell at that age and was always very scared about doing the wrong thing (saying a swear word, for instance) and going there as a result, and I was always very scared at night. And I grew up in a normal family, I just got that idea "in the air," no one force fed it to me. Why would you plant that idea in the mind of an impressionable child? Why would you deliberately terrify these children? (Children are acutely aware of how powerless they are and it takes little at some ages to scare them.) And for God's sake why would you hit--all day--a baby??!

The blanket training is especially cruel. First of all, a child that young can't form a thought or recognize a pattern of "if I do this [crawl off], then this [being hit with the spoon] is going to happen," not in any conscious kind of way. They are completely in thrall to their impulses. As soon as they get the urge to crawl, they've forgotten about the punishment, so you'd really have to keep it up for a long time. (Stopping a baby from crawling--really think about how stupid that is. That is an inherent part of their development! You're retarding their growth! Just put them in a playpen, let them crawl and keep an eye on them! Oh wait, that would mean Michelle and Boob actually have to parent.) And then, tempting them to crawl off by putting a toy off the blanket--tempting them to crawl off, so you can hit them again. I just--this is staggering cruel. What kind of sick f*** gets pleasure out of hitting babies?

People who hurt the most vulnerable members of our society--old people, children, developmentally challenged people and animals--deserve Hell, or prison.

[floridamom]

I specifically remember Michelle speaking about that blanket training on the show. She stated that this method is also used so a mother can visit with friends and not have to be concerned about the baby moving about. They would stay where placed. This made me sick. How lazy of a mother can you get?

[merylinkid]

22 minutes ago, floridamom said:

I specifically remember Michelle speaking about that blanket training on the show. She stated that this method is also used so a mother can visit with friends and not have to be concerned about the baby moving about. They would stay where placed. This made me sick. How lazy of a mother can you get?

You also have to be looking at Mamma and smiling.   Because gazing adoringly at your abuser is also a requirement.

8 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Who the hell gives a board game about going to Hell to children?

They had that kids choir singing "I belong in Hell."   Like who DOES that to kids.   Kids should be singing Jesus loves me, not I am a bad terrible person who should be punished.   

And yes, I feel sorry for Jinger Duggar.   She was the one standing there saying "I now I have sinned terrible and I can't save myself."   No honey, you are a little girl, your sins are little things that God understands, as long as you are sorry and try to do better (raised Catholic with the tradition of the sacrament of confession).   And God does not consider, I was mean to my brother as on the same level as murder.   But that's the problem.   EVERYTHING is a SIN and EVERYTHING is bad.   So if its all equally bad, they don't react appropriately to the big things.   So not instantly obeying your parents is the same as molesting your sisters.   Off to ALERT for a few weeks and its all fine.   Jill in one of her talking heads was talking about how her parents got into activism, the local corner store started selling alcohol OR pornography, she doesn't remember which.    But to them both were equally bad.   This is how the abusers and pedophiles and rapists got away with it.   Well, we are all sinners aren't we, oh darn.  

[Bethany]

I remember watching the original show when it first came on and thinking they were just this quaint, old fashioned family who were living their values and not hurting anyone.  Like a lot of these reality show families who were being presented as a little off beat but essentially harmless.  How wrong those of us who thought that were!  

Edited June 9, 2023 by Bethany

[MamaMax]

21 hours ago, quarks said:

 

My personal theory is that Jana met her brothers-in-law - especially Jeremy - and said, yeah, I am so not doing this.

For evidence, I point to the four of them on social media. 

I think she saw her OWN BIG  BROTHER and said hell no 

[MMEButterfly]

On 5/31/2023 at 3:30 PM, BetyBee said:

Wow! JB is truly a garbage person! Screwing over his own kids for money. What a great Christian!

And political ambition. I think he dreamed of becoming Huckabee. 

[Salacious Kitty]

15 minutes ago, MMEButterfly said:

And political ambition. I think he dreamed of becoming Huckabee. 

Back in the day, JB was tight with Huckabee. However, I think they subsequently had a falling out. Shocker! I know. JB seems to be quick to burn bridges.