S04.E08: America Decides

[DobbsFox]

So...what would happen if a large segment of ballots  were destroyed before they could be counted in an election? I imagine there are number of possible solutions, if not scenarios, that could be used. Is that a state by state issue?

29 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Don’t worry Kendall. Ultra rich people are never affected by elections. Just relocate your wife and kids to London or Paris and start spending your tax cut. 

I've been thinking about that a lot since the episode ended. No matter what happens, Kendall, Shiv, and Roman are going to be just fine. At no point will they ever need to abdicate and run for their lives, there are no guillotines waiting for them in the town square.  Just like Roman told Kendall - "nothing matters." That's the nihilistic theme of the entire story.

[millennium]

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

his accusation was the lowest of the low. 

At least it wasn't "Is it mine?"

Edited May 15, 2023 by millennium

[Artsda]

2 minutes ago, millennium said:

At least it wasn't "Is it mine?"

It's a question he probably should ask. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 minutes ago, DobbsFox said:

So...what would happen if a large segment of ballots  were destroyed before they could be counted in an election? I imagine there are number of possible solutions, if not scenarios, that could be used. Is that a state by state issue?

Someone above linked to a Twitter thread from an election lawyer who seemed to think that if such a situation as the show happened in real life, there likely would be some level of do-over election.

[aghst]

14 minutes ago, DobbsFox said:

So...what would happen if a large segment of ballots  were destroyed before they could be counted in an election? I imagine there are number of possible solutions, if not scenarios, that could be used. Is that a state by state issue?

I've been thinking about that a lot since the episode ended. No matter what happens, Kendall, Shiv, and Roman are going to be just fine. At no point will they ever need to abdicate and run for their lives, there are no guillotines waiting for them in the town square.  Just like Roman told Kendall - "nothing matters." That's the nihilistic theme of the entire story.

Sure and that was one of Roman's arguments to do what he did, none of it matters, so he can hand wave Shiv warning about giving power to a fascist like Mencken.

Certainly doesn't matter to the rich but maybe also doesn't matter to the normal people either, though they're obviously not his concern.

 

[The Hound Lives]

6 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

I'm sorry but I do not see Shiv as a great American patriot, so concerned for the country.  I see her as 1000% self-absorbed and she often chooses the wrong horse.

This is exactly it. I have never heard Shiv discuss any political leanings. I’ve never heard her say anything pro this or pro that. No matter who’s an office, it’s not going to hurt them. The mega rich, stay mega rich, whether it’s left or right. None of that matters. It comes down to access. I have a close friend who works for major media outlet. I was told early on to take all the clutching pearls and crocodile tears with a grain of salt. If a news outlet gets the results they want (preferred candidate winning), it means plenty of access. They set the narrative. If the outcome is not what they were hoping for, doesn’t matter, they have four years to blow apart every single thing. It makes for great TV. They all run in the same circles and have the same brokers, investments, etc.. It’s all smoke and mirrors. That is the one thing the show has done pretty well. Greasing palms and empty promises on both ends.

Honestly, the only thing I enjoyed about the episode was Greg and the smile he sent Shiv’s way after talking to Kendall. I was kind of high on Shiv for a long time. But now, for a show that desperately needs a strong, hustling woman, she’s not it. She’s not clever and I really want her to be.

Edited May 15, 2023 by The Hound Lives

[Artsda]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Someone above linked to a Twitter thread from an election lawyer who seemed to think that if such a situation as the show happened in real life, there likely would be some level of do-over election.

A whole election? I feel like they'd do the state perhaps if needed. I think it would all depend on if it's a state in play to call it or if the call is made without it. 

Like if Menken gets the 270 without Wisconsin in the days to come it won't matter. 

[pasdetrois]

Could Pearce and Mattson end up aligned? Cutting the Roys out entirely?

[aghst]

Shiv hasn't repeated talking points but from the things she's said, it's clear her politics are different from those of the rest of her family.

Also you could see that Willa feels uncomfortable with the Roys backing Mencken.

And Jess wondered about what ATN was doing calling for Mencken.

So the family is loosely based on the Murdochs and Roman would be like Lachlan Murdoch, who is supposedly conservative.

But apparently their social circle is full of coastal elites, more progressive.

That seems to be what Succession represents, most of these people are college-educated and live in NY and other big cities.  They'd all find Ravenshead and Mencken distasteful, at a minimum.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Artsda said:

A whole election? I feel like they'd do the state perhaps if needed. I think it would all depend on if it's a state in play to call it or if the call is made without it. 

Like if Menken gets the 270 without Wisconsin in the days to come it won't matter. 

I meant for the affected state or perhaps just the county. One would think it would force some level of recount regardless of whether the election hinged on the results from that state. "Every vote counts" is sort of a joke if violence can literally destroy properly cast votes.

I imagine that the situation depicted in this episode is unprecedented (or close enough to it) and there's not really a contingency in place to deal with it in most states. If it did happen, I suppose there would be an argument to restrict the "do-over" to the county where the office got firebombed, an argument for a redo of the entire election across the state or other measures.

The way the show described the EV math, Wisconsin is pivotal to who wins. Mencken gets to 276 max with Wisconsin and the other three outstanding electoral votes to Jimenez's 262. With Jimenez getting those 10 Wisconsin EVs, Jimenez wins with 272 to Mencken's 266 (252 + 11 from Arizona + 3 from Alaska). 

[BlackberryJam]

Shiv worked for a Dem when the show started, clearly at odds with her family. She and Tom have a dog named Mondale. I’m sure that’s a characterization choice. Tom is more malleable, but the both originally leaned left.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, The Hound Lives said:

This is exactly it. I have never heard Shiv discuss any political leanings. I’ve never heard her say anything pro this or pro that. No matter who’s an office, it’s not going to hurt them.

IIRC when we first met Shiv, she was working for a Democratic contender for president. Similarly, part of why she had appeal to the Pierces was that she seemed liberal or liberal-adjacent. The impression I got was not that it was just a mercenary cynical sense of "I'll take whoever's money that pays me" or anti-Logan rebellion but there was an element of thinking that the guy was the best for the country.

16 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

Could Pearce and Mattson end up aligned? Cutting the Roys out entirely?

It seems doubtful that Matsson would want to buy Pierce, or that Pierce would want to be bought by Matsson.

Matsson's incentive to get Waystar is that there are a lot of valuable parts that it has even if he sees their media stuff as woefully outdated. Pierce is apparently less with it than Waystar, tech wise and in a poor position as a business overall.

Pierce's idea is to get max cash for their legacy media empire and bounce. Ideally, it would be nice if the new owners respected their limousine liberalism. They already got the Roys to severely overpay for it. No reason to think Matsson would pay more, or do a better job preserving their legacy than the Roys will and have pledged to do. 

20 minutes ago, aghst said:

Shiv hasn't repeated talking points but from the things she's said, it's clear her politics are different from those of the rest of her family.

Also you could see that Willa feels uncomfortable with the Roys backing Mencken.

And Jess wondered about what ATN was doing calling for Mencken.

So the family is loosely based on the Murdochs and Roman would be like Lachlan Murdoch, who is supposedly conservative.

But apparently their social circle is full of coastal elites, more progressive.

That seems to be what Succession represents, most of these people are college-educated and live in NY and other big cities.  They'd all find Ravenshead and Mencken distasteful, at a minimum.

 

I've wondered if any of the main kids actually have any real conservative beliefs other than "Go capitalism!" Roman seems perfectly open to bashing conservatives (including Logan) as racists and none of them seem to bother with any of the typical conservative talking points.

[DrSpaceman73]

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/05/succession-fire-wisconsin-election-law-supreme-court.html

Here is a slate article about the episode and scenarios, although it's pretty short on specifics and basically says the state and us Supreme courts would decide. 

Revoting may not be constitutional because national elections are supposed to be all on the same day. 

[pasdetrois]

Regarding Tom's fatigue, I thought heart failure. The cocaine and stress could push him into a cardiac event.

It is notable that the script had him mentioning his fatigue so frequently. I think the fatigue + cocaine are intentional on the writers' part.

[Taget]

On 5/15/2023 at 12:17 PM, Blakeston said:

I'm genuinely worried that this episode will inspire people to try to burn ballots in the next election.

That is what I was thinking.  The Wisconsin scenario is so realistic I'm frightened it might give someone ideas.

What gave me PTSD was Connor deciding his long standing professed principles matter less than what personal opportunities he might avail himself to.

Unfortunately I don't think this shows Romans immaturity but his growth.  This isn't an impulsive ill considered rash action without any thoughts to ramifications.  It was the "smart" play to be close to and ingratiate himself to power.  This is exactly what his father would have done.  This is what has been missing in discussions over who was "best" to take over ATN is what ATN is.  The "elephant" in the room is ATN has a couple institutional goals.  First fan service to it's audience.  Second to influence power with it's audience to get them to approve their business plans.  And third to be political arbitrator that can flex power for and to the right so it's position within the right wing is unassailable.

If it was a competent non-family member like say Gerry she would've cut the deal in a heartbeat.  Damn the political consequences.

Which is why if you have trouble with what ATN is the person to cheer on is Mattson since he wants to basically tear Waystar to pieces and turn ATN into a vanilla news network that won't cause waves.

Roman sees his relationship with Mencken as a possible way to one up Kendall and of course to block the merger and keep himself in the running.  If he thought he could get a better deal by going the other way he would've.

Even though she was sympathetic I think we are being soft on Shiv.  Part of why Kendall acted emotionally and backed Roman was Shiv was backstabbing her brothers.  Rather than being a conduit to make sure the merger didn't happen she was seen as doing the opposite.

Her subterfuge helped set up a situation where Kendall's perceived business interests were never going to be aligned with Jimenez.  Roman may have built the boat but Shiv cut the anchor.

I also believe Shiv would've gone with Mencken if she thought Jimenez was going to block the deal and Mencken wasn't.  She is not someone to let her personal issues get in the way of her business interests.  If she was she would've called Jimenez and put him on the phone with Kendall.  She didn't.  Her alliance with Mattson was too important.

Kendall showed himself to be the reactive indecisive leader he always was.  Even if he survives Mattson the stockholders are going to eat him alive particularly as he alienates his siblings.

Tom is walking that tightrope trying to keep his job.  What he needs to do is follow his own advise to Greg and gather his own pile of dirt as leverage for when he falls off so he can land on his feet.  So far he is surviving.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Taget

[sistermagpie]

22 hours ago, Marley said:

I don’t think she actually cares about the future of the country. She is mad because she felt iced out.

I don't think any of Shiv's reactions over the course of the show when it comes to Menken have played as just a way of being mad at whatever family thing is going on. Shiv is very privileged, but maybe just being a woman or having worked a little in the real world is enough to make her minimally intelligent about going full Fascist. Whatever the reason, she's always been personally horrified at cozying up to this guy. She had personal things involved as well, but she doesn't have to fake hating this part.

19 hours ago, millennium said:

Rather than a decision-maker Kendall seemed to me a Pontius Pilate, uncertain, making a pronouncement that conflicts with his gut, then immediately seeking to wash his hands of his choice.   Pilate used water; Kendall tries to justify it in terms of business.

 

Was it Tom or Kendall that Shiv called Pontius Pilate?

10 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

I'm sorry but I do not see Shiv as a great American patriot, so concerned for the country.  I see her as 1000% self-absorbed and she often chooses the wrong horse.

I don't think she has to be a great American patriot to be genuinely concerned for the country. That was one of the realistic things in the ep, imo, that many people were obviously instinctively terrified at the idea of Menken being president, like Greg, for instance. Sure Shiv's going to continue to be rich and she's not going to be dealing with blowback like billions of ordinary people or even her niece. But she's smart enough to know that the US being a Fascist state might actually be bad even if it's not directly affecting her first. 

5 hours ago, Artsda said:

Roman did do what his father would have done, get the person elected who you'd have in your pocket. 

I think he may be wrong about having this guy in his pocket.

3 hours ago, millennium said:

At least it wasn't "Is it mine?"

She preempted that on pupose, telling him she was pregnant by him.

[millennium]

24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Was it Tom or Kendall that Shiv called Pontius Pilate?

I don't recall that she did.

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, millennium said:

I don't recall that she did.

Just watched it again. It was Tom she called Pontius Pilate when he decides to call for Menken because "It's not my call."

[marybennet]

One of the great things about the show's critique for me is that nobody's motives and feelings are unmixed:  Shiv is upset because she is seeing what's frightening for the country about Mencken AND it fits with her motivations in re her brothers cutting her out of their power bond and the Matsson deal.  Kendall decides to go with the Mencken call because Shiv's betraying him gives him permission to let go of his desire to seem caring about his kids and the country and do what he wants to do--make the Mencken call because it makes it seem more likely that he can kill the Matsson deal and keep control of the country.  All those things are true, but finally all the sympathy we've been developing for them over the seasons of the show doesn't matter; what matters is that people are inflicting fascism on those of us who don't get to make the call.

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Was it Tom or Kendall that Shiv called Pontius Pilate?

I don't recall that she did.

Tom. She said it to Tom when he insisted on the brothers deciding.

 

I think it is interesting that the show is being very clear Menken is a fascist creep. Usually it has more a more nuanced look at the power brokers. But Menken has only been presented as evil and bad. Even Gil had shades of gray and could cut a deal. It's like Armstrong wants it clear Roman and Kendall are on the wrong side of history.

[wknt3]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:24 PM, Zaffy said:

ok, please inform the ignorant Greek here: why it is so important if a channel/network  calls or not a result? 
Shouldn't they just wait for the official results? I am kind of confused.

 

On 5/14/2023 at 11:28 PM, Mr. R0b0t said:

Because it begins to cement that decision into the psyche of the voters.  It's hard to walk it back and reverse course without creating a whole different set of problems.  Especially in the current version of America.

There is also the element at play here that this a news network that caters to the base of the right wing populist candidate and their calling a result one way or the other in an extremely polarized atmosphere has a lot of impact on that base and the ability to mobilize them to take drastic action, which does influence the decisions of various functionaries and judges, which in turn can make it harder for elected officials to take actions that they might otherwise which would go against the desired result. If the election is already announced as decided after all, than any recount or re-vote must be an attempt to steal it and if this is a gray area do you want to be the one to kick off riots when you might end up getting overturned anyways? That is why the state calls were such a big deal in the events that inspired the plot. And thinking about that - if Logan was still around he would have let his nerd do his job and told cosplay Hitler to go fuck himself...

Edited May 16, 2023 by wknt3
revised and expanded my remarks

[Blakeston]

Question - we didn't see Cyd at all in this episode, did we? Did they actually fire her, like Logan wanted?

[cardigirl]

9 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv worked for a Dem when the show started, clearly at odds with her family. She and Tom have a dog named Mondale. I’m sure that’s a characterization choice. Tom is more malleable, but the both originally leaned left.

I think this was mostly for laughs, as when they visited the "old money" Pierces, who were just as horrible in their own right. Nan or someone said that their dog was named Mondale, so they must be alright. As if that was enough to vet them. 

19 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I'm genuinely worried that this episode will inspire people to try to burn ballots in the next election.

 

18 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

I had the same thought -- terrible to give any ideas of sabotage to polling sites.

Art imitating life or vice versa? 

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/14/2023 at 9:25 PM, jeansheridan said:

That was all so depressing.  And Roman just jumped the shark for me as a character.

I agree with your first sentence. But as for Roman, I found myself liking him the most of any of the characters, even though I fear and despise Mencken.

Roman's always been good for a laugh, but there was no laughing this time. Of any character, it was Roman who knew what he wanted, had clear reasons for wanting it, and never gave up making it happen. Unlike Tom, he's not a creature of what other people need. Unlike Ken, he's not paralyzed by conflicting wants. Unlike Shiv, he's not a liar with a secret agenda to thwart his siblings! He's up front. I don't share his goals (understatement) but I do admire his clarity of focus. I didn't want to root for him in this episode, but that's what I found myself doing.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I agree with your first sentence. But as for Roman, I found myself liking him the most of any of the characters, even though I fear and despise Mencken.

Roman's always been good for a laugh, but there was no laughing this time. Of any character, it was Roman who knew what he wanted, had clear reasons for wanting it, and never gave up making it happen. Unlike Tom, he's not a creature of what other people need. Unlike Ken, he's not paralyzed by conflicting wants. Unlike Shiv, he's not a liar with a secret agenda to thwart his siblings! He's up front. I don't share his goals (understatement) but I do admire his clarity of focus. I didn't want to root for him in this episode, but that's what I found myself doing.

Roman is a liar, and he would happily thwart his siblings if his siblings had a different agenda than his. 

[cmfran]

Mencken spells his first name "Jeryd?" 

Also, how have none of the siblings not punched Greg in the face yet? Especially Roman, although he probably couldn't reach Greg's face.

I had to take a couple of Tums when I finished watching this one for the same reasons everyone else here has mentioned.

[Lassus]

13 hours ago, The Hound Lives said:

I have never heard Shiv discuss any political leanings. I’ve never heard her say anything pro this or pro that.

I'd have to go back, but I was pretty sure there was some of this in the first season and randomly - if not regularly - since.

EDIT: I see this has already been addressed above.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Lassus

[Blakeston]

Shiv has expressed discomfort throughout the series with ATN’s right-wing agenda.

As for whether Roman actually agrees with Mencken, I think Roman’s “turning back the clock twenty years sounds pretty good to me” speech in this episode shows that he’s genuinely pretty reactionary.

 

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

but I do admire his clarity of focus

Kieran mentioned liking this too. Playing grief stricken sounds like it was hard for him. The performance is great but he said it was hard to switch gears. So yes, Roman was horribly on the ball tonight.

[BlackberryJam]

Shiv can have left leanings and still be acting in her own self-interest with Jimenez. I don't think she'd jump to Mencken for her own self-interest, not that she's high and mighty on her beliefs, but that she sees the long-term risk of him in office, whereas Roman just doesn't care. 

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, no matter who wins this election and whatever happens with Mencken, the Roy's will be fine. They have that 1% money, they'll always be fine, unless they manage to totally screw themselves over...which is sort of inevitable even if it doesn't happen in the actual show. 

Its so hard to tell what Roman actually wants and what he wants ironically or for business, although now it seems like he has really committed to the far right team, he's basically their kingmaker. He's so weird and detached but this does seem to be who he is. Shiv has her more left wing feelings, and is clearly upset about this mess personally, and Kendall is clearly not thrilled about this turn on behalf of his kids and that tiny bit of decency he has still left in there, but at the end of the day, its all about the Roy's and what they can get out of anything. 

Like with Kerry, Greg does bite back hard when someone has pissed him off. And Tom, who a few seasons ago was begging Shiv to get pregnant, cant even find one single fuck now about their baby. 

Shiv is a shockingly bad liar, her "strategy" to make fake calls and manipulate Kendall fell apart right away, so now everything knows that she's been working with Mattson. The best thing Shiv could ever do is get a job in some other company because being around her family drops her IQ points by the hundreds, but that will never happen. 

[realityplease]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And Tom, who a few seasons ago was begging Shiv to get pregnant, cant even find one single fuck now about their baby.

Maybe it was the shock of finding out the pregnancy news in the midst of election & newsroom chaos while under the influence of coke & stress.  Or maybe he never really cared about having a child so much (as least as far back as Italy) as cementing his position in the family as the father of Shiv's baby & Logan's grandchild.

[endure]

20 minutes ago, realityplease said:

Maybe it was the shock of finding out the pregnancy news in the midst of election & newsroom chaos while under the influence of coke & stress.  Or maybe he never really cared about having a child so much (as least as far back as Italy) as cementing his position in the family as the father of Shiv's baby & Logan's grandchild.

She def picked the absolute worst time to tell Tom and not just because it was election night and he was overwhelmed, coked, caffeined and stressed out, but once again they are dealing with their own ongoing trust issues - how could he comprehend or believe she is being sincere especially when her delivery was so flippant.  She always has to control the narrative with him.

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Tom. She said it to Tom when he insisted on the brothers deciding.

 

I think it is interesting that the show is being very clear Menken is a fascist creep. Usually it has more a more nuanced look at the power brokers. But Menken has only been presented as evil and bad. Even Gil had shades of gray and could cut a deal. It's like Armstrong wants it clear Roman and Kendall are on the wrong side of history.

Hitler was nice to dogs etc. 

I mean, it seems like it would be unrealistic to try to be coy about him being a white supremecist. There's plenty of people out there just as obvious as him--if anything the show polishes him up by making him smoother and more charming and lacking any other personal faults so far to go along with the Fascism.

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Roman is a liar, and he would happily thwart his siblings if his siblings had a different agenda than his. 

Roman was secretly working with Logan when he died, after he died.

Roman was always the one least capable of going against Logan, and I think that might be what's going on here now. He knows what Logan would do, and he's still just trying to obey that voice in his head.

[Taget]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Shiv is a shockingly bad liar, her "strategy" to make fake calls and manipulate Kendall fell apart right away, so now everything knows that she's been working with Mattson. The best thing Shiv could ever do is get a job in some other company because being around her family drops her IQ points by the hundreds, but that will never happen. 

Shiv's problem was she faced a choice between her political beliefs and business interests.   Fear of Menken becoming president.  With the fear of her deal with Mattson falling through.  She came up with an ill considered plan to accomplish both.  It unfortunately failed on two ends.  First even faked it never gave Jimenez the firm answer that Menken gave and Kendall required.  And second it was easily verified to be a fraud.

Could she have called the Jimenez camp and told them to just lie to Kendall so ATN would might do what they want?  Sure.  But she did not want to risk that they might actually give in to Kendall and Roman. In her mind protecting her deal was always more important than her beliefs.  Not that her beliefs are not how she defines herself but she would rather have what in her mind is a "moral victory" she can blame on her brothers than an actual victory for Jimenez's camp.  Business come first.

However the best job for her is actually what Mattson is offering.  She is far better at dissecting other peoples action than making decisions on her own.  Being an advisor to a campaign or a CEO is where she belongs.  When she has to make them on her own she falls on her head.

She can tell you how to run your lemonade stand.  But never put her in charge of it.

[Zaffy]

I wonder if having this season running "in real time" is good as narration concerns.
There are so many things happening, super deals, elections, relationships collapsing, pregnancies and all this started hours after Logan died.
The siblings had barely the time to grief and so many things happen at the same time that I find my self  to have already forgotten Logan has died a few days ago. I guess their lives are always full like this, but for the audience...I dunno... it feels too "condensed". I think I would preferred the events to spread in a few weeks or  even months, because this is when usually grief strikes hard.

[lucindabelle]

 

 To be clear I don’t think Shiv told Tom out of the “kindness of her heart,” but I also don’t think it was a calculated ploy. I think she sucked it up and told him because she believed he had the RIGHT to know, and her own self esteem demanded she not keep it from him. Again speaking as a woman. Doing the right thing is not being “kind.” On the contrary to hide it would have made her the guilty one.

similarly I do not see Shiv as a die hard patriot BUT that doesn’t mean she was ever comfortable with Mencken. She didn’t want to be in a PICTURE with him until dad insisted. She is definitely “liberal adjacent” and sees the dangers of fascism. 
 

that that also coincides with her self interest is true but not the only driver here. Unfortunately BECAUSE her own self interest got in the way - she helped bring about the fascist victory. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by lucindabelle

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, Zaffy said:

I wonder if having this season running "in real time" is good as narration concerns.

I agree with you and yet I give them kudos for taking a big swing. And it isn't boring! 

[rhygirl720]

upon rewatch, in shiv's second phone call to matsson he casually mentions he is in contact with Greg. This is interesting. Greg is clearly keeping his options open unlike Shiv. She made a bad gamble and now is doubling down instead of folding.

Greg was clearly not remotely intimidated by Shiv.

 

[Milburn Stone]

10 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

similarly I do not see Shiv as a die hard patriot BUT that doesn’t mean she was ever comfortable with Mencken. She didn’t want to be in a PICTURE with him until dad insisted. She is definitely “liberal adjacent” and sees the dangers of fascism. 

You make me realize that this was the episode in which I first began to consider her flirtation with the left to be more than an affectation. Previously, it felt to me that she'd worked for the Dems for no good reason other than that the Dems were "cooler." She flattered herself that she actually had ideals and wasn't like her brothers (even though she had more in common with them than she wanted to know). I still think that's a lot of it, but her panic over a fascist president seemed at least partly because of fascism. (Go figure.)

[chaifan]

I suppose I'm at a table of one here, but ugh, this episode was a total slog for me.  I'm pretty geeky about politics, but watching a tv episode about other people watching election results roll in was sooooo boring to me.  There wasn't a coherent conversation in the whole hour, and really, did anything change from beginning to end of the episode?  Shiv is still the outsider among the three.  Ken is still trying to cut Roman out. 

I found all the angst about calling the election a little overblown, due to the circumstances of the Wisconsin ballots.  That's a pretty extreme situation, and there's no way any other news organization would be calling the election.  If ATN is the sole outlier, as the uber-conservative channel, calling an election for an uber-conservative candidate, and the rest of the news world is saying "hold on, folks, we don't know what's going to happen in Wisconsin", I just don't see it having much influence. 

Also, other than Connor's campaign, the election itself was pretty much a B (if not C or D) plot through the season.  And now we've had 2 episodes centered around it.  Yawn. 

Here's my take on the show... I'm a latecomer to it - I just started watching last year.  Season 1 was incredibly well done, but damn, how I hated every single person on the screen.  It was a good show, but I couldn't fully say I "liked" it.  So I waited a few months to watch Season 2.  I really liked Season 2, and went straight from that into Season 3.  Yes, still a screen full of horrible people, but I really liked the show.  Season 4 is ruining it for me.  I just don't care at all what happens to any of these characters.  I'm rooting for no one.  I'm pretty much watching just because I've put this much time into it, so why not. 

[laurakaye]

On 5/15/2023 at 5:37 PM, Hedgehog2022 said:

So agree with you about Roman. He's drunk with power and just going Rambo on everyone for the hell of it...firing people for no reason, insulting everyone with his potty mouth...just wielding his power wherever he can. An obnoxious little twit. 

Roman badgering Tom and Darwin to call the election - to tell the "telly-box mouth people" to just go ahead and call Menken the winner on Roman's authority as CEO of Waystar was so terrifyingly cavalier.  Roman basically shrugged and said, "it's on me."  Just casual, no big deal - except that it could throw the country into a sick panic...but look, you guys, Roman was never able to get a chicken dinner because Kendall always wanted steak so let's call the election prematurely because nothing matters?  Chilling.

 

On 5/15/2023 at 6:41 PM, SnarkAttack said:

Also, Greg still being around signals to me he's more than just comic relief.  Which worries me.

Greg went from the butt of Lukas and Oskar's jokes to being an insider.  That is rather frightening.  I loved the scene with Greg and Shiv.  When she motioned for him to follow her, I thought - she wants to talk to Greg?  What a power shift.  And him asking Shiv what was in it for him is typical Greg, but he's turned out to be much more than the stammering weirdo cousin I assumed he'd always be.

 

On 5/16/2023 at 6:54 AM, Blakeston said:

Question - we didn't see Cyd at all in this episode, did we? Did they actually fire her, like Logan wanted?

I'm pretty sure she was fired - someone says that Cyd was roaming the streets of NYC spreading lies about Tom, or something to that effect.

 

23 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Roman was always the one least capable of going against Logan, and I think that might be what's going on here now. He knows what Logan would do, and he's still just trying to obey that voice in his head.

Even if that voice in his head is telling him he's a worthless piece of crap.

 

I need a lot more Gerri and Connor in these last two episodes, but I know I won't get that.  

This show sometimes gets so intense, I forget to breathe.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Even if that voice in his head is telling him he's a worthless piece of crap.

 

Especially in that case!

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:08 AM, chaifan said:

I suppose I'm at a table of one here, but ugh, this episode was a total slog for me.  I'm pretty geeky about politics, but watching a tv episode about other people watching election results roll in was sooooo boring to me.  There wasn't a coherent conversation in the whole hour, and really, did anything change from beginning to end of the episode?  Shiv is still the outsider among the three.  Ken is still trying to cut Roman out. 

Lots of little developments and we'll see how they play out/pay off:

1. Shiv's working with Matsson has been exposed to the brothers

2. Roman's positioned himself to have more juice as the person who brokered the deal with Mencken

3. Tom now knows about Shiv's pregnancy and he made 

4. The U.S. now has a fascist for a president

5. The GoJo merger is in a place to get blocked, thanks to the deal with Mencken

6. Greg has apparently gone from laughingstock to possibly having some juice?

[aghst]

I thought Roman was the one who wanted steak and they didn't want to give in to his tantrums so they ate a lot of chicken instead.

Which is curious because chicken is for poor people.  Chicken is unacceptable.

 

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, aghst said:

I thought Roman was the one who wanted steak and they didn't want to give in to his tantrums so they ate a lot of chicken instead.

Which is curious because chicken is for poor people.  Chicken is unacceptable.

 

One of the central points seems to be that when you get to be powerful enough, your tantrums are effective. That's how you can tell you're a business giant.

[buttersister]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:14 PM, sistermagpie said:

I thought Roman was the one who wanted steak and they didn't want to give in to his tantrums so they ate a lot of chicken instead.

 

Kendall wanted chicken. So they ate chicken. Roman took that as a personal failure, loss to Kendall's power. Long damn time to hold a grudge, but part of the damage.

[aghst]

I don't think it was about one sibling yielding to the preferences of another when it came to chicken vs. steak.

They just decided they can't give in to Roman because then he'd have a tantrum all the time.

 

 

[endure]

On 5/17/2023 at 4:24 AM, rhygirl720 said:

upon rewatch, in shiv's second phone call to matsson he casually mentions he is in contact with Greg. This is interesting. Greg is clearly keeping his options open unlike Shiv. She made a bad gamble and now is doubling down instead of folding.

Greg was clearly not remotely intimidated by Shiv.

 

Not surprising, Greg def plays the room doesn't he, he just pops up everywhere!

[jeansheridan]

20 minutes ago, endure said:

Not surprising, Greg def plays the room doesn't he, he just pops up everywhere!

He learned how to kiss ass from Tom but he is so much better at it. Also, unlike Tom, Greg used to know he had $250 million coming to him. Depending on his lawsuit regarding Greenpeace, he may still have money coming. He has grown up knowing he would be unreasonably wealthy. Tom did not. So it is a bit funny Tom has mentored Greg on "being rich". Greg has such a thick skin. Yes he is nervous around Logan and his grandfather but he always pushes through. I really don't know what to make of him. But he doesn't seem focused enough to win it all.