S04.E07: Tailgate Party

[Lassus]

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

As someone who is guilty of thinking that it simply couldn't be the case that Matsson would have sent the blood bricks AND then randomly enlisted Shiv for advice, I will still maintain that it would make no sense for him to divulge that information if true to Shiv. I will also maintain that it makes even less sense for Ebbe to hip the CE-Bros to the problem GoJo has with its india numbers. Yes, she's pissed off at Matsson's antics, and over him and GoJo. But ratting out the problem with the India numbers exposes her to problems and the parachute she's hoping for for herself.

Succession typically has smarter writing than to have characters do obviously dumb things for no reason but to advance the plot.

But if we are taking Matsson and Ebbe at face value, that's exactly what happened here. It is almost as though they created a character who was smart, business-savvy and ruthless in all his previous appearances and then super-undermined him these last few episodes by making him into a lovesick sexual harasser who would confide in an enemy about his harassment rather than any of the numerous people he has on his payroll, then mock fire her in public to antagonize her further. Yes, I'm sure there are numerous examples of real-life creeps who don't know when to stop one could come up with. And maybe it will turn out that Matsson was one all along.

In your, er, defense, it ends up weirdly tracking.  Tech bros brilliant and awesome -----> tech bro actually unhinged/evil kind of works across the board, not just Elon but the previous Twitter wacko, Holmes, Zuckerberg, the Google "do no evil, ok maybe" bros.  It's a type, and the worship - kind of what we had as an audience with Mattson - happened here as well?  

Edited May 9, 2023 by Lassus

[cmfran]

Imagine if Greg has to fire Tom. What a scene that would be.

[Simon Boccanegra]

1 hour ago, cmfran said:

Imagine if Greg has to fire Tom. What a scene that would be.

Over Zoom, I hope. Just telling Tom he wanted to have an "open business relationship" (translation: work under the supervision of someone else) got Greg pelted with water bottles! 

[TV Diva Queen]

I don't think Gerri will report Roman.  As the General Counsel isn't she also somewhat the Ethics Officer too?  She should have reported it immediately, not hang on to it for clout. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, TV Diva Queen said:

I don't think Gerri will report Roman.  As the General Counsel isn't she also somewhat the Ethics Officer too?  She should have reported it immediately, not hang on to it for clout. 

I don't know if Gerri didn't report Roman 

1. because she actually enjoyed the dick pics and the flirtation/attention from him

2. because she was convinced she could ride Roman to the top (not like that)

3. because she was embarrassed by the situation or would be by going public

4. because despite the evidence she has (I was going to say "hard" but let's go with "indisputable" instead), she knew it likely would still be uphill sledding going against the Roys while Logan was a factor

5. because she was saving it for blackmail/clout

6. because as a family friend and Shiv's godmother, she wanted to spare the Roys embarrassment 

7. because she knew that it wasn't going to be likely that anything would be done about Roman's harassment

8. because she enjoyed her job despite the occasional dick pic and wanted to keep doing it and was convinced she would be allowed to keep doing it

9. Some mix of the above

10. any number of reasons that haven't occurred to me

In any case, things have changed. Logan's gone. Roman's soft-fired Gerri before, actually fired Gerri and now seems to be trying to walk back that firing. From all appearances, Roman will not be in a position to help her professionally even if he were so inclined if/when the GoJo merger goes through. If she had much in the way of personal affection/romantic feeling/lust for Roman, I would imagine a lot of that has dissipated.

I don't blame Gerri for not wanting to put up with this at all. And what she is proposing would keep things quiet and have her get hundreds of millions. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[aghst]

If Geri did eventually file sexual harassment charges, she should do it as soon after the incidents, not keep it in her back pocket.

Or she should tell someone soon even if she doesn't formally sue or make formal accusations.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, Lassus said:

In your, er, defense, it ends up weirdly tracking.  Tech bros brilliant and awesome -----> tech bro actually unhinged/evil kind of works across the board, not just Elon but the previous Twitter wacko, Holmes, Zuckerberg, the Google "do no evil, ok maybe" bros.  It's a type, and the worship - kind of what we had as an audience with Mattson - happened here as well?  

Again, I don't think it's so much far-fetched that Matsson might have done the frozen blood bricks thing repeatedly. If there was an item saying any of the real-world tech bros did something similar, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

I don't think it is unlikely that someone might be clueless why normal people would find sending blood bricks/sexual harassment more broadly creepy.

What I find unbelievable is -- knowing that there is a potential problem with having sent blood bricks to someone he was seeing romantically who reports to him, as Matsson clearly does at the point that he talks to Shiv -- that Matsson would bring this up 1) unprovoked 2) to someone who isn't really in a position to help him with the underlying issue 3) who is also in an adversarial position to him in a business dealing and 4) who he (more likely than not) is trying to seduce.

I would refuse to buy that fill-in-the-blank real-world executive would have the lack of social awareness and business savvy needed to do such thing, and I find it dubious here.

I also find it all-too-convenient that word of the blood-brick sending got out so the Failsons could find out about it, and that the India issue could also come to light right now. 

It could just be that the Succession writers wanted to make this a fair fight, because if Matsson was the avant-garde business genius that he had been portrayed as up to a couple of episodes ago, none of them would have had a fair shot. But if he's as big a screwup and a weirdo as any of them, maybe they can win.

[Lassus]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would refuse to buy that fill-in-the-blank real-world executive would have the lack of social awareness and business savvy needed to do such thing, and I find it dubious here.

I also find it all-too-convenient that word of the blood-brick sending got out so the Failsons could find out about it, and that the India issue could also come to light right now. 

Fair.  It may still be a play/plot.  I kinda HOPE not, as I find looniness more plausible than this sort of high-level subterfuge, but it's possible.

[MBayGal]

"Failsons" -- good one!

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

"Failsons" -- good one!

Again, I can't take credit for it...that's the term that Matsson used to describe them. :)

Which again, makes it so hard for me to square that the writing can be so absolutely brilliant 99 percent of the time with the possibility that it would be so bad to have Matsson make the unforced error of "hey, can I tell you for no particular reason about that time I weirdly sexually harassed someone in a creepy way?" or similarly that he would openly admit to Shiv (or anyone) that his India metrics are completely BS when all he had to do is bluster and deny, deny, deny that there was an issue.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[Simon Boccanegra]

22 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Yeah I still Have no idea what happened with kendalls daughter based on what the mom said. Someone was pushed. Racism.  Atn.  She doesn't want to go to school.  I realize it was complex but no idea what Any of it meant. 

They all seem to deal in superficiality and avoid any details in their conversations.  

That was a notably murky scene. I was happy to see Natalie Gold as Rava again, and she and Jeremy Strong always act well against each other, but it played like a bad take, even taking into account that Rava herself was not entirely clear on all the ins and outs. Or maybe the fragmented dialogue was the problem? 

What I pieced together was that Sophie, who is of mixed race, was walking on the street with some friends. A man wearing a T-shirt identifying him as a fan of Ravenhead (the ATN personality from season 2 who had read Mein Kampf more than once and named his dog after Hitler's dog) pushed past her and made a racist comment. Sophie's friends at school are supportive of her and very anti-ATN, and they sympathize with her because of her family situation. But now she feels like the center of attention in a way she doesn't want to be, and their solicitousness is embarrassing to her, so she doesn't want to go to school. Which I totally get.

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, aghst said:

Or she should tell someone soon even if she doesn't formally sue or make formal accusations.

Logan knew about it at the time, and though he couldn't back her up she could also say he knew about them. But she also has pictures probably with timestamps.

32 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

"Failsons" -- good one!

 

25 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Again, I can't take credit for it...that's the term that Matsson used to describe them. :)

 

He can't take credit for it either, to be fair. It was already an expression--and definitely applies to the Roys.

 

Just now, Simon Boccanegra said:

What I pieced together was that Sophie, who is of mixed race, was walking on the street with some friends. A man wearing a T-shirt identifying him as a fan of Ravenhead (the ATN personality from season 2 who had read Mein Kampf more than once and named his dog after Hitler's dog) pushed past her and made a racist comment. Sophie's friends at school are supportive of her and very anti-ATN, and they sympathize with her because of her family situation. But now she feels like the center of attention in a way she doesn't want to be, and their solicitousness is embarrassing to her, so she doesn't want to go to school. Which I totally get.

That's what I thought too--I thought it was pretty clear, despite Rava not having all the details. Kendall wanted it to be a single incident he could deal with in one blow and naturally doesn't want to deal with the murkier, larger ripples that come from things his family does.

[realityplease]

Tom thought he'd marry the boss' daughter & it would propel him to the top. It took him pretty far - from Cruises to the top of ATN.  But a season or more ago, Tom was confronted with Shiv's ambition. Tom came to see that SHE was gunning for the top job, not pushing him to the top (or at least not the top over & above her.)

Her ambition & switch from politics to Waystar striver wasn't what he anticipated - nor her desired open marriage, nor "playful" admission in Italy that she didn't love him. Though hurt, he hung in there - not wanting to lose what he'd attained.  But when it came time to choose sides, he chose Logan, the man who Tom described as never losing.  Even if that meant betraying & alienating Shiv.

Logan's death changed the equation.  Despite Tom's efforts to propose himself as CEO - he had no takers. When Shiv was helping Matsson, he silently rode along - happy to be given an option to align with a winning side.  So they got back together.  But each one couldn't tamp down their ambition or insecurities or at-odds natures or positions. That extinguished any love they could re-ignite - their true natures took over.

Shiv's used her upper hand to mock him at the party (even though she excused it as lightly done for a reason) & though Tom was humiliated when "everyone" knew his ATN job was threatened.  Shiv enjoyed her power over Tom - she wasn't forgiving or forgetting his betrayal.  On the other hand, Tom's passive-aggressive "humor" in giving her a scorpion also gave away how he really viewed her - he wasn't forgiving or forgetting either.   

Both able to play act & deceive when needed, both able to sting & hurt. Tom's emotional voice crack on Zoom before introducing hatchet-man Greg to fire 100's seemed real - but followed with Tom's jokey off-screen wringing hands & fake cry while Greg delivered the bad news to the unlucky. It shows Tom's ability to fake emotion with sad eyes, near tears.  Shiv was gleeful putting Tom down in front of others (not seeing that it hurt him, or brushing it off or not caring) yet expected solace from him after learning of the India issue & questioning whether Matsson is "real" - her option for power - fading. They both want to trust each other, but can't.  Each too able to deceive.  Each able to hurt when hurt.  Each needing someone to care - but each too self-centered to be that for the other.  So much real & so much fake in both of them.  Poison to each other.  Fascinating writing.

Edited May 9, 2023 by realityplease

[nb360]

I liked the episode but I agree with those who said this one episode was "off," for a lack of a better word.

It makes me wonder if perhaps Logan's passing should have been in the 4th or 5th episode:

He is such a powerful figure, the planets get out of alignment without the gravitational pull of the sun (I hope my science is correct 🙂)

Edited May 10, 2023 by nb360

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/7/2023 at 9:29 PM, Irlandesa said:

Other than the Tom/Shiv confrontation, Gerri tagging out and Connor saying he's going to listen to the one person who doesn't think he's a joke, I found this episode kind of boring. 

I did, too, and I wonder why. The writing seemed off to me--that Tom/Shiv scene being the sole exception--like it was the work of a second-tier or novice writer trying to do an imitation of Succession.

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/8/2023 at 12:47 AM, MBayGal said:

What difference would his campaigning have now, or his dropping out?  Isn't the election tomorrow?

I was totally confused by the election talk. (Just me?) It seemed that it must be about the general election (not a bunch of primaries). There was even talk of electoral votes. So is Connor running as a third-party candidate? Or is Mencken? Surely they would ordinarily belong to the same party and be opposing each other in primaries, not the general. What have I missed?

[marny]

10 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I was totally confused by the election talk. (Just me?) It seemed that it must be about the general election (not a bunch of primaries). There was even talk of electoral votes. So is Connor running as a third-party candidate? Or is Mencken? Surely they would ordinarily belong to the same party and be opposing each other in primaries, not the general. What have I missed?

I presumed Connor is running as a Libertarian third-party candidate. It’s a bit unrealistic to think him dropping out the night before Election Day would have that much impact, but I guess we’re supposed to pretend early voting doesn’t exist or that it’s much less popular than it actually is. 

[Milburn Stone]

17 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

That was a notably murky scene. I was happy to see Natalie Gold as Rava again, and she and Jeremy Strong always act well against each other, but it played like a bad take...

Same reaction. While I thought the writing was at fault in most of this episode, here I thought it was the direction that let us down. I'm a fan of Berman/Pulcini--I think American Splendor is genius--but here I kept feeling "the camera is in the wrong place, the edits are off, the actors haven't been properly prepared," etc., all those thoughts that add up to "I don't know why, but the scene isn't working."

[BC4ME]

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

It could just be that the Succession writers wanted to make this a fair fight, because if Matsson was the avant-garde business genius that he had been portrayed as up to a couple of episodes ago, none of them would have had a fair shot. But if he's as big a screwup and a weirdo as any of them, maybe they can win.

Frankly, even though I don't know how this will all play out, I find the Matsson blood brick stuff believable since we are now realizing real-life examples of such erratic behavior. The current owner of Twitter being the most spectacular example of erratic, unpredictable and self-sabotaging behavior.

Again, don't know how it will all pan out but are they trying to tell us that these people at the top of such businesses are screw-up and weirdos like Roy kids, et al and Matsson with the occasional super competent yet unrewarded people like Gerri holding things together? If so, I'd believe it.     

[Dminches]

On 5/9/2023 at 1:35 PM, aghst said:

If Geri did eventually file sexual harassment charges, she should do it as soon after the incidents, not keep it in her back pocket.

Or she should tell someone soon even if she doesn't formally sue or make formal accusations.

 

If she files an harassment suit and it becomes public Waystar’s stock goes down and she gets hurt financially. Not sure why she would do that.

People are supposed to tell others when they are harassed so it is documented. She doesn’t have to do that since she has the pictures to prove it.

 

[Johnny Dollar]

I read an interview with the directors of this episode where they said that they didn’t know Shiv was pregnant because the pregnancy episode wasn’t even written yet when this episode was filmed. That would explain why Shiv doesn’t look pregnant, but certainly makes Tom’s crack about her not being a good mother quite ironic.

I also have no idea what’s going on with Kendall’s daughter since Rava talks in “Succession-speak” where you trying together words but don’t really say anything. In any case, it all seemed pointless.

Count me among those who think Mattson is setting up the Roy Boys with the “secret” about the India numbers. He already knows they’re trying to tank the deal, so he wants them to look like fools and force the board to fire them and accept a lower buy out. And they’re just arrogant and dumb enough to fall for it. 

[DrSparkles]

On 5/8/2023 at 1:02 AM, Slade347 said:

I've come to the conclusion that I'm Team Willa.

& her hair!!!!

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I also have no idea what’s going on with Kendall’s daughter since Rava talks in “Succession-speak” where you trying together words but don’t really say anything. In any case, it all seemed pointless.

 

Seemed pretty straightforward to me. She was on the street with her friends and a guy pushed past her (iow, maybe could have not touched her but intentionally shoved against her) and made a comment that Sophie didn't repeat to her mother. He was wearing a tee-shirt in support of ATM's neo Nazi anchor with a quote from the guy on it. Kids at school started an anti-ATN thing to show support of her, but she can't just feel good about the support because it's her family's - especially her father's - network.

Then Kendall cut in asking exactly the wrong questions, acting like the problem was that his daughter was on the street or her mother wasn't there when it happened, trying to turn it into an "incident" he could take action on instead of owning the fact that his business model affects real people including the bi-racial child he presumably adopted.

ETA: It's like Rava and Sophie have to make a case for why Kendall should care about this while Kendall gets to pretend he's too unfamiliar with racism to understand it on his own.

Edited May 11, 2023 by sistermagpie

[MBayGal]

Apropos of nothing much, I think Willa would be a great mom.  I don't recall any discussion about her interest in having children or not, but she seems much more suited for motherhood than Shiv.

[realityplease]

47 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Then Kendall cut in asking exactly the wrong questions, acting like the problem was that his daughter was on the street or her mother wasn't there when it happened, trying to turn it into an "incident" he could take action on instead of owning the fact that his business model affects real people including the bi-racial child he presumably adopted.

Yeah, I'll admit that Kendall went off on a tangent - trying to blame Rava for not being there when it happened.  I forget how old Sophie is, but old enough to be with friends on the street without her mom present.  But if Ken was "trying to turn it into an incident he could take action on" - it's because Rava asked him to do something - including calling Sophie because Sophie was upset. So he needed to understand what happened to make Sophie upset. 

Rava, however, was halting & vague. She alluded to something physical but it wasn't clear if someone pushed Sophie, pushed by her, or shoved her.  Big difference between a shove & pushing by. He had to press Rava for details. So you hear that your kid's in a physical altercation (or not) & she's upset - but the details are hazy.

Not sure in that moment, you're gonna  connect that to your business model & how it affected your daughter.  (Adopted doesn't seem relevant, even bi-racial unless the T-shirted punk made it an issue, no matter who was pictured on his T-shirt.) So Ken reacted like a stressed parent. Talking to an Ex.  (And in a hurry to get to a funeral planning breakfast with the sibs - for which he was late.)  Didn't seem that awful to me.

Edited May 11, 2023 by realityplease

[aghst]

Or Kendall was deflecting, rather than having to do something about Ravenshead, he tried to turn it around on Rava with “where were you, why weren’t you with Sophie?”

And Rava wasn’t having it, realized Ken wasn’t going to take any responsibility, probably one reason they divorced.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, realityplease said:

Rava, however, was halting & vague. She alluded to something physical but it wasn't clear if someone pushed Sophie, pushed by her, or shoved her.  Big difference between a shove & pushing by. He had to press Rava for details. So you hear that your kid's in a physical altercation (or not) & she's upset - but the details are hazy.

 

Rava was clear about that. She said he pushed by her a little. Kendall turned it into "pushed her" and Rava corrected him that she'd said he pushed by her. The only thing Kendall asked that would be relevent in talking to Sophie (though I'm not sure that's why he was asking) was when he asked what the guy said, which Rava didn't know because Sophie didn't  repeat it.

Rava was very clear that the problem was that Sophie felt that a guy on the street in a Ravenshead Tee-shirt targeted her with hostility because he was racist, and kids at school going anti-ATN, while supportive, has made things more complicated given who her father is. She did it in under a minute. He just wanted it to be about something else.

I don't see why Kendall shouldn't immediately be connecting this to his business model since Rava and Sophie already did it for him. I mention Sophie was adopted only to say that at some point Kendall seems to have decided to adopt a child who isn't white and now he's platforming white supremists and supporting one for president and playing dumb about what Rava's describing.

Edited May 11, 2023 by sistermagpie

[Guest]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

and playing dumb

I'm not so sure at this point that he's playing.

[TV Diva Queen]

On 5/9/2023 at 12:28 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't know if Gerri didn't report Roman 

1. because she actually enjoyed the dick pics and the flirtation/attention from him

2. because she was convinced she could ride Roman to the top (not like that)

3. because she was embarrassed by the situation or would be by going public

4. because despite the evidence she has (I was going to say "hard" but let's go with "indisputable" instead), she knew it likely would still be uphill sledding going against the Roys while Logan was a factor

5. because she was saving it for blackmail/clout

6. because as a family friend and Shiv's godmother, she wanted to spare the Roys embarrassment 

7. because she knew that it wasn't going to be likely that anything would be done about Roman's harassment

8. because she enjoyed her job despite the occasional dick pic and wanted to keep doing it and was convinced she would be allowed to keep doing it

9. Some mix of the above

10. any number of reasons that haven't occurred to me

In any case, things have changed. Logan's gone. Roman's soft-fired Gerri before, actually fired Gerri and now seems to be trying to walk back that firing. From all appearances, Roman will not be in a position to help her professionally even if he were so inclined if/when the GoJo merger goes through. If she had much in the way of personal affection/romantic feeling/lust for Roman, I would imagine a lot of that has dissipated.

I don't blame Gerri for not wanting to put up with this at all. And what she is proposing would keep things quiet and have her get hundreds of millions. 

OK

[Penman61]

19 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I read an interview with the directors of this episode where they said that they didn’t know Shiv was pregnant because the pregnancy episode wasn’t even written yet when this episode was filmed.

I'm sorry, what? Do you have a link? This strikes me as...well, wrong. I mean, there's probably an occasional pick-up scene here or there out of sequence for location purposes, but I truly can't imagine they filmed this run of episodes so out of sequence that they didn't know Shiv was pregnant during that fight scene on the terrace. (Also, if I were Sarah Snook, as an actor I'd be pretty unhappy about filming the series' climactic marriage fight WITHOUT KNOWING MY CHARACTER WAS PREGNANT at the time. Tom's biggest insult to her in the scene is "You would be a bad mother!")

Sorry, I just get protective of actors sometimes lol.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Penman61

[PRgal]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:06 AM, cmfran said:

Imagine if Greg has to fire Tom. What a scene that would be.

This.  I never liked Tom anyway, the way he belittled Greg when they were at the restaurant eating weird food.  Tom seemed like the guy who was trying too hard to fit in.  

[wknt3]

On 5/7/2023 at 10:58 PM, Maurina said:

Anyone else wondering about Matsson's rather abrupt descent from fairly enigmatic powermonger to drug-addled idiot who doesn't know how to handle himself at a party full of people whose partnership could make or break him?

You're so right. That's completely OTT and unrealistic! I mean could anyone be so successful and not at least have people to stop him from acting like that in public? The writers should be ashamed for expecting us to believe that!
 

On 5/8/2023 at 9:03 AM, Macbeth1966 said:

So basically Mattson is the fictional version of Elon Musk.

Never mind...

[BC4ME]

19 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I'm sorry, what? Do you have a link? This strikes me as...well, wrong. I mean, there's probably an occasional pick-up scene here or there out of sequence for location purposes, but I truly can't imagine they filmed this run of episodes so out of sequence that they didn't know Shiv was pregnant during that fight scene on the terrace. (Also, if I were Sarah Snook, as an actor I'd be pretty unhappy about filming the series' climactic marriage fight WITHOUT KNOWING MY CHARACTER WAS PREGNANT at the time. Tom's biggest insult to her in the scene is "You would be a bad mother!")

Sorry, I just get protective of actors sometimes lol.

Unless I get some kind of link for proof, at which time I'll kindly say my bad, I can't believe they filmed that Tom/Shiv fight without knowing her character was pregnant. They zoomed into her face at the perfect times for the audience to see how those words about motherhood affected her given the situation. It provided much of the conflict that made that scene so influential. 

I could buy that maybe didn't know when they first wrote the script though. But not filming.

On 5/10/2023 at 7:00 PM, Johnny Dollar said:

I read an interview with the directors of this episode where they said that they didn’t know Shiv was pregnant because the pregnancy episode wasn’t even written yet when this episode was filmed. That would explain why Shiv doesn’t look pregnant, but certainly makes Tom’s crack about her not being a good mother quite ironic.

It's perfectly reasonable for Shiv not to look pregnant when she is, according to the phone call and amnio timing less than 20 weeks pregnant. If each of these shows this season are supposed to represent roughly one day, she will not look pregnant even by the time series ends. 

[jeansheridan]

On 5/8/2023 at 4:57 PM, Lila82 said:

Gerri isn't hiring the reputation team as a bargaining chip. She's in real danger of being Hillaryed and losing whatever clout she's built from loyal, competent service if she's caught up in a sex scandal with a younger, richer, more famous man. Roman could laugh it off as a weird kink but Gerri would never be taken seriously again. 

About this I strongly disagree. I think it is embarrassing for her but since his behavior is the real problem any thinking person would be sympathetic.  Logan's take was sexist and designed to shut her down. Same with Shiv. 

Granted Gerri probably doesn't want to end her run with stories about dick pics. But she's smart and can spin it. She can easily talk about how unprofessional Roman is at all times. There is so much evidence about him everywhere. A stunning amount. I don't know how he survives without his dad's rep to protect him.

[jeansheridan]

I was rewatching because of course! And in the scene when Roman calls Connor a joke and Mattson and Ebba are sitting behind Connor, a little out of focus, Ebba is gently touching Mattson's leg and they seem physically cosy. Maybe she's calming him down or India is true and they're discussing because Mattson goes on the attack immediately.  But for those of you who think Mattson & Co are playing them, I am starting to agree. Ebba looks so at ease until Ken makes eye contact and then she looks nervous. But why? Because she spilled India or because she lied about India to Ken? 

Mattson also makes sure a good portion of that room sees Roman flip out.

I actually think Ken more or less held his own in that moment. Mattson tried to egg him on with gay comment but he handled it quickly (Logan would have scoffed). I just think Ken is relying too much on Ebba's story.

[jeansheridan]

On 5/10/2023 at 3:56 PM, Dminches said:

People are supposed to tell others when they are harassed so it is documented. She doesn’t have to do that since she has the pictures to prove it.

Telling even friends can help. The pictures are obnoxious but definitely not enough alone to win her the day. We actually don't know if other people observed their weird work dynamic. Gerri seems careful but did someone over hear their sex talk? It's not totally impossible.

What kind of sucks is that I don't think Roman's flirting was unwelcome until he sent the pics to his dad. And yes I will call it flirting before Logan died because they were on similar power footing. Different power! She had experience and institutional knowledge on her side. And her rep. He was the boss's son. And she was definitely the mentor. 

BTW has she ever mentored her god daughter Shiv? I thought it was weird Ken referred to Gerri that way. Is that how HE thinks of this experienced executive?

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

About this I strongly disagree. I think it is embarrassing for her but since his behavior is the real problem any thinking person would be sympathetic.  Logan's take was sexist and designed to shut her down. Same with Shiv. 

 

But why assume we're talking about thinking people? Misogynists and people who suck up to them will absolutely see Gerri coming out worst because she's an older woman and Roman's just boys being boys-ie and probably laughing at her. Their default is always going to be to sympathize with the guy (just as Kendall started re-interpreting Sophie's story.)

She's right to not be relying on anyone sympathizing with her. That's why she's got professionals crafting her narrative to win out over anything Roman might say.

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

BTW has she ever mentored her god daughter Shiv? I thought it was weird Ken referred to Gerri that way. Is that how HE thinks of this experienced executive?

I don't think it is. He said it in this situation because Roman mentioned casually firing her, and he was emphasizing how Gerri's been such a good executive for so long she's practically family.

[marybennet]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But why assume we're talking about thinking people?

Yes. And the person who sent the dick pics is now at a higher rank in the company. The person who received them has been fired, twice. 

[coffee gnomes]

On 5/11/2023 at 1:10 PM, Penman61 said:

I'm sorry, what? Do you have a link? This strikes me as...well, wrong. I mean, there's probably an occasional pick-up scene here or there out of sequence for location purposes, but I truly can't imagine they filmed this run of episodes so out of sequence that they didn't know Shiv was pregnant during that fight scene on the terrace.

&

8 hours ago, BC4ME said:

Unless I get some kind of link for proof, at which time I'll kindly say my bad, I can't believe they filmed that Tom/Shiv fight without knowing her character was pregnant.

The directors didn't know about it, at least, per this interview.

From the article (emphasis mine):

"When Succession directors Shari Springer Berman and Robert Pulcini filmed that awful argument between Sarah Snook's Shiv and Matthew Macfadyen's Tom on Sunday's episode, the pair did not fully understand the level of awfulness the bust-up would feature when the show screened. In the course of the fight, Tom tells his wife that she is 'maybe not a good person to have children,' a statement which clearly devastates the pregnant Shiv. In the world of Succession, Tom is unaware that Shiv is having a baby and, in real-life, the directors were also ignorant of this fact when they shot the episode.

"In an interview with Vanity Fair, Berman explains that she and Pulcini did not know that Shiv was pregnant on the HBO drama at the time because the episode 4 scene in which Snook's character learns this information had yet to be written.

"We knew that Sarah was pregnant," she says. "But we didn't know that Shiv was going to be pregnant. We didn't have that specific piece of information when we shot it."

Edited May 12, 2023 by coffe-and-gnomes
edited for clarity about who didn't know what when

[Penman61]

8 hours ago, BC4ME said:

If each of these shows this season are supposed to represent roughly one day, she will not look pregnant even by the time series ends. 

I don't have the original quote handy, but when I heard TPTB say "one ep = one day," I didn't take it to mean consecutive days, just that each episode's time period was 24 hours. (Happy to be corrected, though.) So, in theory, the next episode could be 6 months later than last week's, but it would just cover one day.

[Penman61]

43 minutes ago, coffe-and-gnomes said:

"In an interview with Vanity Fair, Berman explains that she and Pulcini did not know that Shiv was pregnant on the HBO drama at the time because the episode 4 scene in which Snook's character learns this information had yet to be written.

"We knew that Sarah was pregnant," she says. "But we didn't know that Shiv was going to be pregnant. We didn't have that specific piece of information when we shot it."

Thanks for going to the trouble to find and post the actual quotes. :)

Wow. I guess the best we can hope for is that Sarah Snook is "intuitive" enough of an actress that when her unpregnant character heard "You'd be a bad mother!" the pregnant actress's true feelings about hearing those actual words spilt unintentionally across her expression...

Man, I'd be a bit pissed, though, as an actor, were I her.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Penman61

[7-Zark-7]

On 5/8/2023 at 6:16 AM, absnow54 said:

The audacity of Kendall calling Mattson "new money" when Kendall's father was born poor. 

I thought that was more Kendall’s mother coming out of him. She is old British money. I also thought that was supposed to be one of the big differences between Connor and the other three is that they not only had different mothers but different kinds of mothers. I thought Connor’s mother was also from a more humble background like Logan and then once he made a name for himself, and she was put away, he could prove he had made it by marrying a woman from a previously untouchable class, like Caroline (a pattern Caroline is repeating with her current husband).

I also assumed that was part the of the appeal for Logan to buy Nan Pierce’s company. It has that kind of prestige that comes from an old money publishing family like the Hearsts.

Edited May 13, 2023 by 7-Zark-7

[BC4ME]

6 hours ago, coffe-and-gnomes said:

 

"In an interview with Vanity Fair, Berman explains that she and Pulcini did not know that Shiv was pregnant on the HBO drama at the time because the episode 4 scene in which Snook's character learns this information had yet to be written.

"We knew that Sarah was pregnant," she says. "But we didn't know that Shiv was going to be pregnant. We didn't have that specific piece of information when we shot it."

Wow! Thanks. That's amazing. I guess I read more into that scene because of my knowledge that Shiv was pregnant.

[Milburn Stone]

13 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Man, I'd be a bit pissed, though, as an actor, were I her.

The strange thing about Berman/Pulcini's story is that it contradicts what I've always understood about how a season of a series is created. Show runners may not assign a writer to a particular episode when a season is being conceived, but they do map out the season before shooting on any of the episodes gets underway. Something as important as a lead character being pregnant would definitely be on a 3 X 5 card tacked to a corkboard before shooting of a season began.

So we know Berman/Pulcini are quoted in print as saying they didn't know. Many possibilities. 1) They're being misquoted. 2) They said what they said but somehow the writer misinterpreted what they meant. 3) The show runners deliberately withheld the information from the directors, but the writers they assigned to the episode did know. 4) They also withheld the information from the assigned writers! 5) The show runners made up some important stuff as they went along. I consider that last possibility the least likely of the five, but it is possible I suppose.

[Macbeth1966]

I love that Tom gave Nate the red, fruity wine The one where staff was instructed "Don't tell anyone it is German."

😄

Edited May 13, 2023 by Macbeth1966

[Macbeth1966]

19 hours ago, 7-Zark-7 said:

I thought that was more Kendall’s mother coming out of him. She is old British money. I also thought that was supposed to be one of the big differences between Connor and the other three is that they not only had different mothers but different kinds of mothers. I thought Connor’s mother was also from a more humble background like Logan and then once he made a name for himself, and she was put away, he could prove he had made it by marrying a woman from a previously untouchable class, like Caroline (a pattern Caroline is repeating with her current husband).

I also assumed that was part the of the appeal for Logan to buy Nan Pierce’s company. It has that kind of prestige that comes from an old money publishing family like the Posts or the Hearsts.

Well the real problem with the British aristocracy is that they tend to be wealthy in land but not so much in actual cash.  Downtown Abbey's storyline of Cora marrying the Earl was based on Charles Spencer-Churchill, 9th Duke of Marlborough married NYC socialite Consuela Vanderbilt as he was nearly bankrupt.  So their English mother married the very wealthy Logan to save the family farm and the rest of the heirlooms that had not already been auctioned off to keep them afloat.

[aghst]

5 hours ago, Macbeth1966 said:

I love that Tom gave Nate the red, fruity wine The one where staff was instructed "Don't tell anyone it is German."

😄

But I think the joke is that Tom doesn't really know wine, he is just a snob about it.

He was willing to have prison wine, fermented in the toilet.

I'd give up drinking before that.

[KittyQ]

On 5/7/2023 at 10:56 PM, aghst said:

The ranking of the countries is great stuff.

When Connor was considering which ambassadorship would work for him, I kept thinking of the characters in The Diplomat, which I recently watched. Poor Connor would be totally lost in that situation, although I'm betting Willa (Willow?) would be creating a heck of a "memory book".