S04.E07: Tailgate Party

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I don't think Tom wants a traditional housewife, but in season 2, when Shiv told Tom that Logan was going to name her his successor, Tom felt that he deserved the role over her, and that thought she was to be helping him up the corporate ladder. As for having children, his insistence on having children seemed more like having an anchor baby to solidify his role in the family.

Yes! He probably was fine when she was working in politics. But now she’s his competitor 

Edited May 8, 2023 by dmc

[Lassus]

2 minutes ago, dmc said:

You didn’t?  How about when her father offers her the CEO role… and he says I thought we wanted that for me.  Part of their issue is he wants someone supporting his career not building up her own.

I'll disagree with this, I guess.   I think he's absolutely fine with the latter simultaneously as long as he also gets enough of the former.  He's not a complete idiot.

[dmc]

Just now, Lassus said:

I'll disagree with this, I guess.   I think he's absolutely fine with the latter simultaneously as long as he also gets enough of the former.  He's not a complete idiot.

I don’t think he’s fine with it.  He says he’s fine with it.  Like he says the scorpion is a joke but it’s  not. He was throwing himself in for the CEO role two episodes ago again.  I don’t think he wants a housewife but to constantly be subservient to his wife at the same company is a no for Tom. 

[DrSpaceman73]

I actually do think tom loves Shiv. He loves her money too but I do think he loves her

And I never thought he wanted a sahm for a wife. I think he prefers a power couple dynamic, but just one where he has more power than her. That's never been the case with Shiv.  And never would be with her for many reasons. 

[absnow54]

6 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I think he prefers a power couple dynamic, but just one where he has more power than her. That's never been the case with Shiv.  And never would be with her for many reasons. 

I think he's come around to the idea that he'll never have more power than Shiv in their couple dynamic. He's leached onto Shiv's wagon in Logan's absence, and seems happy to follow her lead during her dance with Mattson. Where Tom draws the line is being expendable, and Shiv has always been quick to throw Tom to the wolves when his ranks within the company are questioned (except for that time when she begged Logan to spare him.)

[DoubleUTeeEff]

8 hours ago, MBayGal said:

What difference would his campaigning have now, or his dropping out?  Isn't the election tomorrow? A huge number of people have already voted, and the rest aren't breathlessly waiting to see if Conner is still running before they vote. 

It is true that the vast majority of people are already decided or have already voted for one of the main 2 candidates. However, if Connor released a statement that he was dropping out of the race, that would anger some of the "Conheads" and they would presumably vote for Mencken instead.

It's also worth noting that more Democrats vote early while more Republicans vote on Election Day. Hence the term, the "red wave" that you may have heard during the 1/6 hearings or otherwise.

[RedDelicious]

1 hour ago, Zaffy said:

Mattson  bores me now, so does his Swedish entourage.. cause it is repetitive, as  I think the whole show is. We basically watch the same thing for 4 seasons now.
Yes the acting is superb, the dialogues can be amazing, some episodes are great TV, but still.. I feel the fatigue.
I think the series would be perfect if it lasted 2 seasons top.

In other news, I really find Kendall creepy every time he gives a public speech.. If I were a business partner, shareholder, client etc etc I would just run away. The story kind of feels weak  without Logan in the picture, mostly because the kids are so damaged and indifferent and I am not sold on their kind of pathetic intrigues. 

I will also join team Willa! Willa for president!

My thoughts as well. I'm tired of the fractured um, uh, okay, uhuh dialog between the siblings. Connor's the only one who can speak in sentences I can understand, even though what he has to say is usually outlandish. I still don't fully comprehend what happened on the street because Rava was doing the same thing. I need more Geri/Frank/Karl and Marcia to take over. Greg is just annoying me at this point. 

I despise Shiv for always going classist on Tom. I don't know if I love Tom or I love Matthew McFayden playing Tom. I think it's a little of both. 

Team Willa and gosh darnit Team Willa's Hair.

39 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I actually do think tom loves Shiv. He loves her money too but I do think he loves her

And I never thought he wanted a sahm for a wife. I think he prefers a power couple dynamic, but just one where he has more power than her. That's never been the case with Shiv.  And never would be with her for many reasons. 

I agree that Tom loves/loved Shiv. But I don't think he wants more power than her. I always thought he wanted them to be true partners in life (the power couple) and she has never given him that. She's never (and probably wouldn't ever) let him in. She thinks he's beneath her and won't ever let him be more.

[Lassus]

9 hours ago, MBayGal said:

What difference would his campaigning have now, or his dropping out?  Isn't the election tomorrow? A huge number of people have already voted, and the rest aren't breathlessly waiting to see if Conner is still running before they vote. 

I have no problem chalking this up to dramatic license, that a massively sufficient number of people in this narrative world will not have voted until election day.  

[pasdetrois]

I don't think Tom is butt-hurt that Shiv doesn't love him; I don't think he has ever loved her.

Tom is a smooth operator, but not a business genius. He understands he needs the Shivs and Gregs of the world to latch onto for power and money (Shiv) and use to do his dirty work (Greg). If Shiv is a SAHM, he loses.

Any hurt we think we see is Tom feeling despair over being shamed for his background. For being encouraged to think he is Shiv's equal partner in their relationship and business. "You are servile" indeed.

[AriAu]

What a depressing hour of television, that I will need to rewatch again tonight and at least 3 or 4 more times this week.

Rava/Kendall scene-no way does she wait to meet up with him a day after it happened-she calls him like 30 seconds after whatever encounter Sophie had and it certainly doesn't start out calm with any normal protective mother conversation. And Kendall's response that everything he does is for his kids and to make the world safer for them is such a call back to Logan at the family therapy session that feels like 100 years ago.

The Tom/Shiv thing had lots of brutal and brutally honest moments except it left out one thing...SHIV IS 5 1/2 MONTHS PREGNANT. There is no way she isn't showing at least a little and as they make clear over and over, Tom is seeing her naked.....a lot. And while the line about her being a bad person who should not be a mother is a clear call back to what Shiv's mother said to her, was it also some allusion to Tom knowing she IS pregnant, and if so, it was the cruelest most intentionally hurtful line of the whole Virginia Wolff affair.

And, while there is a lot of real estate porn throughout this series, I am really, REALLY jealous of the soundproofing of the windows/sliding door of Tom's apartment!

yeah Geri.....Shiv's godmother Geri...for putting Roman in his place, which of course makes him spiral off into pressuring Connor to abandon the Con-heads so he can get at least one win from the day.

Great call back by Nate about not wanting to drink Tom's wine from the wedding episode.

 

[Penman61]

Me, last week:

On 5/2/2023 at 9:58 AM, Penman61 said:

Re Gerri & Roman's fight: Why isn't Gerri using Roman's having sent her unsolicited dick pics as her trump card? Or has that card been played already, since Logan already found out (Roman's stupid mis-texting) and is now dead anyway?

Seems to me a headline like "New Waystar co-CEO Sent Dick Pics to Highest Ranking Woman" would still have some potency (!) as a threat.

Me, this week:

 

[BlackberryJam]

I actually thought that a few days had elapsed and Shiv was post abortion. Maybe because I thought there was raw fish on the breakfast tray and she was in her jammies?

I had the impression that Tom and Shiv "reconciled" and agreed she'd have the abortion and that's why time was upset that she didn't want to have his baby.

It's a complicated show with as much said as unsaid.

The timeline is a mess. 

[Jaundiced Eye]

I almost forgot Shiv's shit-eating grin while telling Mattson that she is hot shit. He remained unimpressed and clearly doesn't agree. That reminded me of [the Pierce woman?] telling Logan that Shiv isn't as smart as she thinks she is.

[chaifan]

32 minutes ago, AriAu said:

The Tom/Shiv thing had lots of brutal and brutally honest moments except it left out one thing...SHIV IS 5 1/2 MONTHS PREGNANT.

If this whole season has been only a few days long, then Shiv is less than 20 weeks.  When she was on the phone with her doctor, she got test results and then was told to set up her 20 week exam.   I think someone else on the thread in that episode identified the test she had as one that they do during first trimester. 

If she's in first trimester, then I can buy that Tom hasn't noticed anything, or just thinks she's gained a little weight.  In fact, that would have been a funny line to throw into that argument - you'd be a horrible mother, and by the way, you're getting fat! 

[pancake bacon]

13 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

but I sadly suspect that will fall on death's ears.

There's a LOT to read and say about this Succession episode (is anyone surprised), but I just wanted to chime in and say "death's ears" is my new favourite malapropism. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by pancake bacon
formatting

[absnow54]

22 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I think someone else on the thread in that episode identified the test she had as one that they do during first trimester. 

She had an amnio, which is done in the second trimester, typically around 16 weeks, so she's in the ballpark of 16-20 weeks. It isn't unrealistic if she isn't showing yet. Everyone carries differently, and it's typical not to "pop" until later for a first pregnancy.

What's vague is whether Tom knows she's pregnant. It's not like we've ever seen Shiv be passionate about having children. She was reluctant to even agree to freezing embryos with Tom. So him telling her she wouldn't be a very good mother wouldn't be a particularly hurtful thing for him to say, unless he already knew she was pregnant.

Edited May 8, 2023 by absnow54

[Blakeston]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

II agree with a lot that Tom said about Shiv.  But with regards to her mothering abilities, he is WAY out of line though.  Despite what men think women are not born knowing how to be mothers, it’s something you have to learn how to do.  And a woman agreeing to have your baby is never just about you, it’s something that the woman has to feel comfortable doing at that time in her life because it’s a massive undertaking.  

I don't think Shiv could ever learn to be a good mother. She's an inherently cruel, selfish person who always thinks she's right, and she has no concept of what a healthy parent/child relationship looks like. I don't think she's ever had a healthy relationship of any kind with anyone.

Speaking of which - sorry, Shiv, but even if Tom hadn't been a rat, you still wouldn't have been spending quality time with your father during the last six months of his life. Your plan was to block Logan's deal - if that plan had succeeded, she and Logan would have been on the outs anyway.

I actually do think that Tom loved Shiv, despite how severely messed up their relationship has always been. I believe him when he says how badly he was hurt by her. And I think she loved him, in the way that someone loves their dog.

[dmc]

23 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think Shiv could ever learn to be a good mother. She's an inherently cruel, selfish person who always thinks she's right, and she has no concept of what a healthy parent/child relationship looks like. I don't think she's ever had a healthy relationship of any kind with anyone.

Speaking of which - sorry, Shiv, but even if Tom hadn't been a rat, you still wouldn't have been spending quality time with your father during the last six months of his life. Your plan was to block Logan's deal - if that plan had succeeded, she and Logan would have been on the outs anyway.

I actually do think that Tom loved Shiv, despite how severely messed up their relationship has always been. I believe him when he says how badly he was hurt by her. And I think she loved him, in the way that someone loves their dog.

A lot of women with these attributes have turned into good mothers.  

I don’t think Shiv loves Tom at all. I think she likes that he cares for her. Tom has been hurt by her but also very rarely advocates for himself and let’s her treat him badly. 

 

 

[millennium]

4 hours ago, Blakeston said:

While Roman is definitely right-wing, when he met Mencken I got the vibe that Roman was somewhat grossed out by Mencken's politics  - particularly Mencken referring to Hitler as "H," and admitting to using his tactics.

The show hasn't done a very good job of depicting the seriousness of the threat posed by a figure like Mencken or how a network like ATN might have a hand in elevating him.   Based on the discussion in this episode, the choice between Mencken and his opponent comes down to tomato/tomahto.   The show backed away from its earlier position of Shiv passionately objecting to her family's involvement with Mencken to a relative hand-wave in this episode.  The three brothers are so self-absorbed it does seem plausible that their only concern is how this improves their own standing.  But Shiv did take a stand not so long ago, though you'd never know it now, which seems odd to me because she's about to bring a baby into this world.

[Simon Boccanegra]

It was only a grace note, but nothing is more quintessentially Succession than the conversation between Kendall and Roman about the Mencken people's request that Roman talk Connor into withdrawing. Kendall says, "I mean, fuck that guy, right?" Roman has to get clarification that he means Mencken, not their brother.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Simon Boccanegra

[Penman61]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

The show hasn't done a very good job of depicting the seriousness of the threat posed by a figure like Mencken or how a network like ATN might have a hand in elevating him.   Based on the discussion in this episode, the choice between Mencken and his opponent comes down to tomato/tomahto.   The show backed away from its earlier position of Shiv passionately objecting to her family's involvement with Mencken to a relative hand-wave in this episode.  The three brothers are so self-absorbed it does seem plausible that their only concern is how this improves their own standing.  But Shiv did take a stand not so long ago, though you'd never know it now, which seems odd to me because she's about to bring a baby into this world.

[emphasis added]

I would tend to agree with this, but to the extent Shiv has thought of this at all, I'm sure she realizes that she and her baby, being among the super-wealthy, would largely be insulated from a Mencken admin's worst depredations on the general populace.

One thing this show gets so, so right is this stratum's completely justified attitude that social/political/financial consequences of their actions are for the little people, not for them.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Penman61

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, aghst said:

I don't doubt that Tom was and is earnest about loving Shiv but he's such an obvious suck up, that's his nature.  He was not even hiding it when he tried with Mattson, who called him out on it -- "which do you value more?  I can do both, I can multitask!"  

Shout out to another great line: I'm about to shit in your husband's mouth and I'm pretty sure he's going to tell me it tastes like coq au vin!

12 hours ago, MBayGal said:

What difference would his campaigning have now, or his dropping out?  Isn't the election tomorrow? A huge number of people have already voted, and the rest aren't breathlessly waiting to see if Conner is still running before they vote. 

If it's really close a block of voters on election day could mean something, I'm sure. But more important for us is the symbolism of the thing - Go Willa! I'm sure she would have put a stop to Connor's idea about North Korea too. LOL>

5 hours ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

and if Connor is really running for Prez, wouldn’t there be a reporter or two buzzing around, to get more data on how utterly hapless he is? Willa could do so much better!

She was not going to find another super rich guy who wanted to marry an escort and agree to her terms.

4 hours ago, SHD said:

Kendall’s always grown up with money and that’s all he cares about. That kind of statement fits right in with his egocentric, shortsighted worldview.

And yet, he knows the Pierces. He's been in the position of being the new money. So sad that he's trying to throw that around because he's insecure about people who've earned their place by actually doing something.

12 hours ago, realityplease said:

Yeah, I know Ken's a shit dad who only gives half-attention (if that) to his kids or their issues, or tried to blame Rava, but c'mon Rava, spit it out!  So annoying when she hemmed & hawed getting out Sophie's problematic encounter.  Don't know if Rava was doing it purposely to be annoying -- or just annoying.  

I'd have to watch it again to remember, but my impression was that as a mother talking about a delicate situation that her daughter had been going through that her dad was partly guilty in--especially the part about what happened on the street that Rava didn't see and couldn't get all the details about--she was approaching the situation expecting him to listen like a parent and not as a hot shot businessman who needed her to just give him bulletpoints so he could "take action." And Kendall kept cutting in with stuff from that pov, like saying she was pushed on the street rather than someone pushed by her, and asking weird questions like "Why was she on the street?" as if his daughter wasn't an independent human being with her own life who's old enough to be outside. This wasn't something she could spit out because she didn't know the details and it was actually bigger than that one incident.

Also, re: Greg's impressing the Swedes with his firing, remember they had no idea what he meant by saying he fired people. He didn't explain he read a statement prepared by Tom to a bunch of people picked by Tom over zoom.

Edited May 8, 2023 by sistermagpie

[Absurda]

My heart broke a little for Shiv when, during their fight, Tom shouted that he loves her and her immediate response was "no you don't."  I believe him that he loves her, but she's so convinced that she's unlovable that she's not just pushing way but actively destroying the one person who does.  By doing everything she can to make Tom hate her, she's proving to herself that she's unlovable.

I don't think Tom knows about the baby.  I think Shiv is keeping that information to herself because

1.  She hasn't really decided if she's keeping it

2.  She won't want Mattson to know until she has secured her post deal position.  Announcing a pregnancy and imminent maternity leave would make it too easy for Mattson to push her to the side post deal.

I'm glad Ebba has an escape plan for February.  She's so obviously miserable it hurts to watch.

 

[Carolina Girl]

Shiv is well named.  

"You didn't deserve ME!"

Frankly, sweetie, the only people who actually DESERVES you is a sociopath.  

[dmc]

4 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

Shiv is well named.  

"You didn't deserve ME!"

Frankly, sweetie, the only people who actually DESERVES you is a sociopath.  

I thought this was a call out from the therapy episode with her dad. Remember when he made her cry by telling her that Tom wasn’t good enough for her.

[cardigirl]

6 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Okay, I need another time check. We know this episode took place on a Monday. Did Logan die on a Friday evening? Or or Saturday? We know that it occurred on a weekend, because the markets weren't open. So that means we're around 10 days out, and they still haven't buried him? Having the funeral be episode 9 or 10 made sense when they were doing an episode a day, because that would make it about a week after his death, but with all the jet setting they've crammed in, we have to be pushing 2 weeks.

As if all of that time bending wasn't bad enough, cast members Brian Cox and Arian Moayed confirmed that season four takes place over the course of ten consecutive days. — From a Vulture article by Rebecca Alter

Edited May 8, 2023 by cardigirl

[Blakeston]

Some things I don't find believable, in no particular order:

- Mattson casually revealing to Shiv just how overvalued GoJo is. (Unless this is all part of some sort of fakeout, of course.) Shiv only knew that there might be something off with the numbers. Even Elon Musk wouldn't be clueless enough to divulge that they apparently only half their subscriptions in India are real.

- Connor being free to attend this party on the night before the election. He's committed enough to spend his honeymoon in the north Midwest, but not committed enough to campaign in his most important states as things draw to a close?

- The powers that be at Waystar Royco being okay with Kendall being co-CEO. He just cost the company a fortune by publicly revealing their crimes, which led to a DOJ investigation that resulted in a huge fine. And he interrupted their stockholder meeting by playing "Rape Me." I'm not buying that all of that would be forgotten just because Logan died.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Blakeston

[DrSpaceman73]

Yeah I still Have no idea what happened with kendalls daughter based on what the mom said. Someone was pushed. Racism.  Atn.  She doesn't want to go to school.  I realize it was complex but no idea what Any of it meant. 

They all seem to deal in superficiality and avoid any details in their conversations.  

And then him saying he's doing all this for his family and to 'make the world safe?'  You're supporting a white racist nazi for president.  

9 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Some things I don't find believable, in no particular order:

- Mattson casually revealing to Shiv just how undervalued GoJo is. (Unless this is all part of some sort of fakeout, of course.) She only knew that there might be something off with it. Even Elon Musk wouldn't be clueless enough to divulge that.

- Connor being free to attend this party on the night before the election. He's committed enough to spend his honeymoon in the north Midwest, but not committed enough to campaign in his most important states just as the election is approaching?

- The powers that be at Waystar Royco being okay with Kendall being co-CEO. He just cost the company a fortune by publicly revealing the company's crimes, which led to a DOJ investigation that resulted in a huge fine. And interrupted their stockholder meeting by playing "Rape Me." I'm not buying that all of that would be forgotten just because Logan died.

All valid, among other parts. I've given up trying to have it all make sense.  They overlook quite a bit to make it a better story.  As a viewer you have to gloss over some of this to let the story work.  

[DrSpaceman73]

Mattson calls Greg 'gary' as he walks away early in the party.  Not sure if that's on purpose or not but still funny. 

Honestly many of the lines I dont know what they are saying.  Not that I'm not understanding what they mean ....I LITERALLY can't understand what they are saying. 

[kittykat]

I thought Shiv did in vitro hence the 16 week pregnancy.

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

would tend to agree with this, but to the extent Shiv has thought of this at all, I'm sure she realizes that she and her baby, being among the super-wealthy, would largely be insulated from a Mencken admin's worst depredations on the general populace.

The Roy kids know they're fine regardless of who is in office.  Shiv is pro Jimenez, Roman is pro Mencken, Kendall is playing both sides, I think he's secretly hoping for Jimenez but covering his bases for a Mencken win.  Again they're all putting business before the politics.  It's not about which candidate has the best humane policies, it's which candidate will look the other way on Waystars less than ethical record.

 

I've been trying to make sense of the S4 timeline and I think I have it as...

Ep 1: Wednesday or Thursday- the Roy 3 make the Pierce deal.

Ep 2: Thursday or Friday - Connor's bachelor party, Roman weasels back to Logan 

Ep 3: Friday afternoon or Saturday (stock market closed)- Connor's wedding, Logan dies.

Ep 4: Sunday? - Logan's wake, Marcia returns from Milan.  Could Marcia really make it back from Milan in the blink of eye and plan a full wake in less than one day.

Ep 5: Monday-Wednesday? - Trip to Sweden to close/tank Mattson deal. Between travel and the summit taking at least two days no way this episode ended on only one day. Time doesn't freeze during flying.

Ep 6: Thursday/Friday- Roman's firing frenzy, Shiv/Tom brief reconciliation and Kendall's presentation.  Show time was at least two days with Kendall fussing over construction of his presentation.

Ep 7: Monday - Election tailgate party.  Weekend probably spent planning party and Shiv/Tom enjoying themselves before inevitable blowout.

I do not believe for a second only seven days have passed since episode one.

[dmc]

Am I the only one who thinks Tom’s road back to ATN is the knowledge Shiv has been working with Madson which she foolishly told him 

[Paws]

Even if it’s one day per episode, something does not align. It’s established that Connors wedding is a Friday, and the night before a general election has to be a Monday, but this timeline gets me to Tuesday

Ep 3 Connor s wedding : Connors wedding was a Friday, Logan was declared dead after markets closed. 
Ep 4 Honeymoon state:  Saturday was wake. Presumably Marcia has use of  a private Jet, so she can fly on  a moments notice, she’s only 6-8 hours away, flies overnight Friday into Saturday , has staff order food, has her staff make calls etc, while she flies.

Ep 5  Sunday Kill List..fly out to Norway and back in a day —which is hard to do but I guess W Time change it works in their favor? I guess In way back they go straight to LA? Still hard to make this work

Ep 6 Monday Living + Product Launch

IEp 7 Tailgate Party  so this has to be a Tuesday but it can’t be 

[tennisgurl]

I swear I almost forgot that Kendall even had kids, which probably says a lot about his parenting style. Its sad seeing him repeating the cycle of bad parenting, although Kendall is more neglectful than cruel than Logan was, we never even saw him call his daughter even though he's clearly upset that Sophie is upset. At least Sophie's classmates are supportive, I was worried that the other kids would bully her because of who her father is and what he's a part of and that sounds like the last thing she needs. Kendall should probably check in soon, his kids lost their grandpa who they did seem to have fondness for, you would think they would like to have their dad around for that, even beyond Sophie being understandably upset about her dad's company backing a racist. Kendall might still be riding high from his last win, but he is clearly on the verge of another breakdown, every time he talks it sounds like he's spitting up word salad. In general the Roy's seem to be falling into that, just rambling on about talking points just to have something to say. 

Yet another messy Roy family get together, say what you will about Matsson but he really did call it when he said that all people at this rich people parties want to talk about his money and gossip. The Roy siblings have been in charge for about five seconds and they all obviously falling to pieces, which is so frustrating because all of them have aspects of what made Logan such a powerhouse, but they're all so consumed by their pettiness, insecurities, and selfishness to ever actually work together for any length of time. I guess that's karma at work, no matter how many people the Roy's piss off, their greatest enemy will always be themselves. 

The acting has always been great in this show, and this season the cast has really outdone themselves, but wow, that fight on the balcony was a great Emmy submission reel for Sarah Snook and Matthew Macfadyen. It felt so real and so uncomfortable that I felt like I needed to leave the room a few times, some of what they said was clearly just said to hurt each other, but a lot of it was painfully true. Shiv and Tom might still hold some real attraction/affection between them, possibly even love, but they are both such toxic people that are even more toxic together, there is no way that they can work, even if they keep getting drawn back to each other. 

Willa for president!

Edited May 8, 2023 by tennisgurl

[millennium]

3 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I would tend to agree with this, but to the extent Shiv has thought of this at all, I'm sure she realizes that she and her baby, being among the super-wealthy, would largely be insulated from a Mencken admin's worst depredations on the general populace.

One thing this show gets so, so right is this stratum's completely justified attitude that social/political/financial consequences of their actions are for the little people, not for them.

You're right -- they would be oligarchs.

[Hedgehog2022]

9 hours ago, absnow54 said:

The audacity of Kendall calling Mattson "new money" when Kendall's father was born poor. 

Right?? The entitlement and arrogance of these Logan kids is astounding...if they didn't have the "pedigree" of being a "Logan" they would never have executive positions at any major corporation. They would be pushing paper in a cubicle. Roman annoys me the most..hubris and obnoxiousness seems to be his only skill set. Kendall is just a pathetic mess and Shiv isn't all in on doing the right thing for Waystar...she's all about her self preservation and looking for the right deals that will benefit her. They are all dysfunctional.

[doobiedo]

19 hours ago, juno said:

Unless of course this was a set up by Mattson and Ebba all along and a way to destroy the 3 children? I am not sure any of them would see it coming.

This was my thought exactly. Wouldn’t Ebba have an NDA so she wouldn’t talk about their business

[rhygirl720]

Madson's behavior seems really uncharacteristic to what we had been shown previously. So, either he is really astounding with the razzle dazzle, enough to fool Logan or this is all just a set up.  Rather convenient that this is all coming out now, the blood, the bad numbers etc. I still believe Madson was playing Shiv from go. He clearly doesn't see her as go forward with the company. Truthfully why would anyone trust her; she has betrayed her family. She has no loyalty. 

Kendall is predictable so maybe this is the scheme for some kind of leveraged buyout.

Geri owned Roman and it was satisfying.

Tom and Shiv! ouch! Brutal truths there.

Willa and Connor for the win.

 

 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Speaking of which - sorry, Shiv, but even if Tom hadn't been a rat, you still wouldn't have been spending quality time with your father during the last six months of his life. Your plan was to block Logan's deal - if that plan had succeeded, she and Logan would have been on the outs anyway.

I think this is true, but I think in grief, people often turn to hypothetical situations that aren’t necessarily realistic. 

[Lila82]

Quote

Re Gerri & Roman's fight: Why isn't Gerri using Roman's having sent her unsolicited dick pics as her trump card? Or has that card been played already, since Logan already found out (Roman's stupid mis-texting) and is now dead anyway?

The very last thing Gerri would want is those photos getting out. Logan said it best last season (paraphrasing) that she's too old and used up for anyone to take the story seriously. Gerri isn't hiring the reputation team as a bargaining chip. She's in real danger of being Hillaryed and losing whatever clout she's built from loyal, competent service if she's caught up in a sex scandal with a younger, richer, more famous man. Roman could laugh it off as a weird kink but Gerri would never be taken seriously again. 

It's an interesting contrast to Shiv, who seems to think scandal and bad judgment will just roll off her back because she's rich and a Roy, even when people literally don't take her seriously to her face and she keeps on trying because she thinks she's owed power for simply existing.  

In this season in particular, the dichotomies between female characters has been fascinating. In one corner we have Marcia and Willa, the former escort, successfully achieving their goals from the traditionally female domestic sphere, using their power as wives and in Marcia's case, widow, to negotiate for what they want. Shiv is trying to have it both ways, playing with the boys while pregnant, and potentially failing on both fronts. It's a good contrast to Karolina and Ebba, the former being talented and loyal and still worried about finding her name on the "kill list" and the latter being indifferent and overtly terrible at her job, but succeeding because she managed to beat the boys at their own game. Maybe she did it through raw talent; maybe, like most of the other power players, it was through dumb luck.

This episode wasn't depressing just because of its commentary about the current state of politics but because we saw how acutely the odds are stacked against the female characters. Even Rava paid the cost. She's the former wife and Ken's still (paraphrasing) "getting the info so he can make the best decision for us".  

Shiv is determined to be hoisted by her own petard, but does it really matter? Even when she wins, she loses.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Lassus said:

Does he?  I never got this vibe from him.  Sure he wanted a child, but I never got the idea he needed or wanted Shiv to be some kind of lesser person.  I think one can want a strong person to support them. 

Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

I don’t think he wanted her to be a stay at home mom. I think he wanted her in her professional world of politics and himself at Waystar hopefully taking over. He didn’t want to compete with her, but he didn’t seem to think she shouldn’t work.

[chaifan]

3 hours ago, Paws said:

Ep 3 Connor s wedding : Connors wedding was a Friday, Logan was declared dead after markets closed. 
Ep 4 Honeymoon state:  Saturday was wake. Presumably Marcia has use of  a private Jet, so she can fly on  a moments notice, she’s only 6-8 hours away, flies overnight Friday into Saturday , has staff order food, has her staff make calls etc, while she flies.

Ep 5  Sunday Kill List..fly out to Norway and back in a day —which is hard to do but I guess W Time change it works in their favor? I guess In way back they go straight to LA? Still hard to make this work

Ep 6 Monday Living + Product Launch

IEp 7 Tailgate Party  so this has to be a Tuesday but it can’t be 

Geez.  No wonder Tom's tired.  So very tired...

[Jordan Baker]

9 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

I don't know if I love Tom or I love Matthew McFayden playing Tom. I think it's a little of both. 

Same for me. All the actors on this show are great, but Matthew Macfadyen is my favorite. As awful as Tom can be, I can't help rooting for him. I think it's because of how much I enjoy seeing MM's performance. 

I did fear for Tom, as he stood on the balcony. I thought the brutal argument with Shiv might literally send him over the edge. And now, I wonder what all the "tired" references mean. Show, please don't go all soap opera-ish on us and have Tom come down with some dreadful disease.

[pancake bacon]

5 hours ago, cardigirl said:

As if all of that time bending wasn't bad enough, cast members Brian Cox and Arian Moayed confirmed that season four takes place over the course of ten consecutive days. — From a Vulture article by Rebecca Alter

 

4 hours ago, kittykat said:

I've been trying to make sense of the S4 timeline and I think I have it as...

I think some (partial) red herrings have been served? Each episode has certainly taken place within a day/two days. There are no long-ish time jumps in the storytelling, but having the season be literally consecutive days is a stretch, in my view. Also Brian Cox and Arian Moyed aren't in every episode. Have they seen every episode and read all scripts?

Show: We have ten consecutive episodes where the story takes place in one day. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

I don’t think he wanted her to be a stay at home mom. I think he wanted her in her professional world of politics and himself at Waystar hopefully taking over. He didn’t want to compete with her, but he didn’t seem to think she shouldn’t work.

I think in S1 they referenced having a plan where Shiv would be the power behind Tom or something like that, presumably because she thought she couldn't hold as much power as a woman. But then Logan dangled the idea that he might pick her in front of her.

[Broderbits]

2 hours ago, rhygirl720 said:

Madson's behavior seems really uncharacteristic to what we had been shown previously. So, either he is really astounding with the razzle dazzle, enough to fool Logan or this is all just a set up.  Rather convenient that this is all coming out now, the blood, the bad numbers etc

It's more believable to me that Mattson and his team are setting a play in motion. Logan definitely would've had GoJo investigated 6 ways to Sunday and known if the numbers were screwy. The Unholy Three are intelligent, but they're not very smart, they're distracted, and they have no idea what they really want. Daddy's gone so there's no more trying for his approval and that seems to have been their main motivation. Mattson probably sees them as sitting ducks.

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 hours ago, Lassus said:

I feel like everyone's forgetting their 12th-dimensional chess assessments of Lukas re: Ebbe a few episodes ago.  "SHIV'S OUT OF HER LEAGUE WITH THIS, HE WOULD NEVER".  I mean, unless Ebbe is really REALLY playing them?  I would be somewhat disappointed if that's the case only in that it seems too unrealistically supervillain-y.  I think it's far more likely that a tech "genius" is a demented dickhead super-ego sex hobo.  

Anyhow, I guess we'll see.

As someone who is guilty of thinking that it simply couldn't be the case that Matsson would have sent the blood bricks AND then randomly enlisted Shiv for advice, I will still maintain that it would make no sense for him to divulge that information if true to Shiv. I will also maintain that it makes even less sense for Ebbe to hip the CE-Bros to the problem GoJo has with its india numbers. Yes, she's pissed off at Matsson's antics, and over him and GoJo. But ratting out the problem with the India numbers exposes her to problems and the parachute she's hoping for for herself.

Succession typically has smarter writing than to have characters do obviously dumb things for no reason but to advance the plot.

But if we are taking Matsson and Ebbe at face value, that's exactly what happened here. It is almost as though they created a character who was smart, business-savvy and ruthless in all his previous appearances and then super-undermined him these last few episodes by making him into a lovesick sexual harasser who would confide in an enemy about his harassment rather than any of the numerous people he has on his payroll, then mock fire her in public to antagonize her further. Yes, I'm sure there are numerous examples of real-life creeps who don't know when to stop one could come up with. And maybe it will turn out that Matsson was one all along.

[Guest]

I don’t think the one day per episode is accurate anymore. The way Tom and Shiv acted, it seemed like they had reunited for longer than a night, and I don’t think they were together at the end of the last episode. The pre-election party would have had to be on a Monday, so I think we are 10ish days out from Logan’s death and not 3.

[millennium]

Am I alone in thinking the caliber of acting in this show is adequate but by no means award-winning?  For example, okay, yeah, Tom and Shiv had a cathartic blow-up on the balcony.   It was a bit tense but it was no "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?"   I don't attach any "greatness" to it -- or to any scene on this show, actually.   It's good, but to be honest I think it's generally overrated.

[gorgy]

After a series of different locales, this was definitely a bottle episode. Next week's election should be like Game of Throne's Long Night where it sets all the players up for the finale.

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but any episode where the Roy brats all look bad and Gerri comes out the better is a good episode in my book.

[maddie965]

17 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I actually do think that Tom loved Shiv, despite how severely messed up their relationship has always been. I believe him when he says how badly he was hurt by her. And I think she loved him, in the way that someone loves their dog.

Exactly. Tom and Shiv broke my heart with that scene, but I was team Tom all the way. I know he's trash too, but he truly loved her, and she never respected that. Hell she never respected him in any way or form. And that's why he says "You've hurt me more than you will ever know". She destroyed him. I'm so relieved he didn't jump from that balcony. I wish he would leave that shitty family and never go back. But he will probably try to destroy her now.

This episode was a whole new level of depressing. I think I need a little break from all the hate, sadness and despair. Queen Charlotte, here I go.

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by maddie965