S04.E05: Kill List

[pasdetrois]

It's hard for me to believe Shiv fell for Matsson's charm and manipulation so easily.

[dmc]

1 hour ago, DobbsFox said:

Matsson never sent anyone blood. If he did, he would never admit that to anyone in a position to use that info. against him.

The playbook on the Roy kids has been out for a while, and the headline is "Easily Manipulated." Matsson's had these three clocked since the moment they answered the phone. He's a Logan Roy-level business genius/sociopath and he's going to get whatever he wants out of them.

He absolutely did.  It always amazes me people who are surprised that powerful men do dumb things and admit to it.  It’s the entitlement that allows them to do this.  

[aghst]

11 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

Well look at Shiv being the sniper from the side! Did not see her and Mattson teaming up but I have to say, I don't hate it! 

It's been what--36 hours since they agreed to keep working together and they're already working against each other.

I kept waiting for one of them to say that "it doesn't matter what dad would do, it's ours now," but they are just so damaged that Logan remains in control from beyond the grave. 

At least Karl had the good sense to realize that being on the kill list still represents a massive severance/golden parachute. The others getting chopped are still going to walk away wealthier than anyone can imagine and can go on to their next corporate gig without so much as a blink of an eye. 

I wish just one of these fucktards would sit back and realize that they have more money than they'll ever be able to spend so just say fuck it and walk away from the bullshit and the stress and go run a tiki bar on some Polynesian island and be rich and happy and stress-free. Just one of them. 

Shiv last week seemed like fuck it, let them have it.  Maybe the pregnancy played into it at the moment, she seemed resigned and exhausted at the prospect of again fighting with her brothers.

But in this episode, she realized, from her background with political campaigns, that Kendall was like behind the smear campaign against Logan.  She didn't ask him outright but she brought it up to let him know she's on to him.

The other thing that energized her was finding that ATN had gotten real cozy with Mencken, letting him sit in on ATN meetings for how they were going to message the remainder of the campaign.

She wanted Cyd gone or better yet, wanted the toxic asset that ATN had become in her eyes to be jettisoned.

Then she saw right away another Kendall gambit, leaking stories about the negotiations going badly.

So that probably made her determined to stop whatever Kendall was up to.

Very telling that Kendall and Roman didn't tell him the higher-priced offer Mattson made for all of Waystar with ATN included for $187 a share.  They just said he wanted to include ATN, not how much more Lukas was willing to pay.

Ken didn't even want ATN.  He was going to get Pierce.  But as soon as Lukas said he wanted it, the boys were like "what are we missing, maybe we shouldn't give it up so fast."

So first they were going to do The Hundred, then Pierce, then sell Roystar but keep ATN after Logan died.  Now they want that thing too.

Ken's original plan was to be such a PITA that Lukas would walk away.  But Roman gave up the game -- "we aren't selling to you!"

Shiv, it's not clear if she had a particular preference for how the deal would be done but she wanted to deny and prevent whatever Ken wanted.

I guess she does a lot more than hang out with Lukas, pretend to do coke with him and give him advice about his sexual harassment problems.  She may have gotten down to selling price, what price would force Ken and Logan's hands as well as negotiating the Kill List.  All this off camera apparently.

Lukas may have more of a clue than Ken and Roy but he may ended up having bad instincts as well.  Doesn't sound like he has great plans for ATN either.  He may be the typical tech bro who thinks he can be successful in any industry just because he had success with Gojo so he's acquiring Waystar without any great idea of its assets.

Greg with the Arctic Foxes and the Quad Squad schtick.  The Roy children aren't particularly nice people but they tolerate Greg a lot.  I thought they didn't grow up together.  They knew of Greg the Egg but doesn't seem like he hung out a lot with the Roys, who are all of different generations has him?

 

[Sailorgirl26]

37 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

It's hard for me to believe Shiv fell for Matsson's charm and manipulation so easily.

I read a recap/analysis (that of course now I can't find) discussing how Matsson has essentially stepped into the role of manipulator that Logan filled -- that these three can't function if someone else isn't pulling their strings -- I"ll see if I can find it.  EDIT TO ADD: This isn't the piece I read, but it says essentially the same thing. 

Looking at Shiv's actions with Matsson from that lens, it makes a lot more sense. Generally, she seems to be less manipulated than the brothers except when it came to Logan. If Mattson is filling that space, it makes sense given where she is:

-- despite the agreement that the three of them would be running the business and jointly making the decisions she's already being shut out/left out

-- she wants the deal to happen, the brothers don't

-- she's reeling from the loss of her father

-- she disagrees politically with ATN and knows Matsson wants to change the model

-- she's pregnant and separated and essentially cannot trust anyone. 

Matsson seeks her out solo.

He theoretically opens up to her.

He wants to change the ATN model (and can we please just take a moment to savor his "angry old people is not a good business model" dig at ATN considering what real-world outlet its based on)

He validates her as a professional by asking her advice on how to manage a potential PR issue (something she has actually done and was good at)

He gives her a way to, at least in her mind, out-maneuver her brothers and get the deal done

He's definitely hinting at being interested in her personally.

All of these factors combined make it completely believable that her Mattson interaction went the way it was. 

And him calling her to ask for a picture . . . was crazy sexual. The way he asked her to send a picture of the bros. was the way anyone else would ask for a sext pic. I absolutely was expecting him to say a dirty picture of her, not of the brothers' faces. 

I do legit hope there is a personal interest there -- I'd love to see Shiv in a relationship with someone she considers her equal versus someone she saw as her puppet until he went behind her back to Logan.

But signs are definitely pointing to her getting back together with Tom since Logan is gone and he once again needs her, which means she is back in the power seat in their relationship. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Sailorgirl26

[Chicago Redshirt]

51 minutes ago, Dminches said:

Or...

1. The Waystar executives want the deal so it was in their best interest to go.

2. I am not sure this is a better deal for Mattson. He is paying almost $50B more.

4. Does he know who spoke to the press? I know he mentioned it but I didn't know if he actually knew the source.

6. Maybe she wants to sleep with him???

All these story lines can go either way.

 

I don't dispute what you're saying here. My main point is that Mattson currently has been getting exactly what he wants while the Roys and their associates don't seem to have much in the way of individual or cohesive strategy going (with the possible exception of Shiv, who wants the deal and at least arguably took steps to make it happen).

As far as we saw, none of the Waystar people meaningfully tried to probe GoJo people for weak links, strategies to to get what they want (whether it was approval of the deal, tanking the deal, personal survival past the merger, hot Scandinavian sex) beyond Shiv.

Maybe some of the Waystar people will wake up and smell the lutefisk. But as of now, it doesn't seem likely given where they are at and their characterization.

Does anyone know what the GoJo people were saying in Swedish?

ETA: According to Esquire:

After clapping eyes on Cousin Greg and learning who he is, Matsson (Alexander Skarsgård) says, in English: “There’s more of them? Wait, are you all related?” before switching into Swedish with his colleagues. “We’ve ended up at one big incestuous family convention!” he says, then the bearded guy quips that Greg is “two-metres of nepotism” and “the Habsburg giant”, a reference, FYI, to the 15th Century royal family of Austria, who were such fans of inbreeding that their offspring became increasingly deformed.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[Zaffy]

it must be exhausting having to deal with someone like Matsson.. all the bluffs, all the "jokes", all the entitlement and the "supreme being" attitude.. 
at least it must be exhausting for normal ppl, dunno, maybe they 1% and their minions are just fine with lunatics like this one.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Lassus said:

I don't know that any acquisition of Waystar is a great idea at this point.  Haven't they been playing up for years that the whole place was kind of limping along at this point?

Anyhow, I dunno, I could be reading the whole thing wrong, but I feel like the show has done a lot to bring us INTO the Roy family, and I honestly don't think the creators want them turned into massive losers at this point.  It doesn't feel like having this Nordic sociopath getting the better of them is going to be seen as a victory by anyone, so I just have a very hard time seeing it going there and then dancing on their graves.  Again, maybe I'm just way off.

I take Mattson as being likely accurate when he assesses that Waystar has great parts but a bad brand. The company is profitable but not as profitable as it could be. Also, it seems like ATN is the biggest profit center and in the original deal, Logan was able to keep that for himself. And beyond the profit is the aspect of power and influence. The discussion about the fate of France was telling. The second-in-command of ATN couldn't even be bothered to speak about a potentially crucial issue beyond saying "Americans don't give a damn about France." (Which is probably sad and true, but he fails to realize that his network is at least partially to blame). So it seems that altering the deal to include ATN, Mattson is almost by definition making a better deal for him.

But also, it may be that Mattson's ultimate design is to cannibalize Waystar like the company Kendall bought that he referenced.

It seems like the show's original question was: who is the best successor to sociopathic capitalist genius Logan Roy? And the answer may be: another sociopathic capitalist genius in Mattson. Or it could be a combination of the three younger children, as they all share some traits with Logan, but none of them are the entire package.

[Enigma X]

32 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

it must be exhausting having to deal with someone like Matsson.. all the bluffs, all the "jokes", all the entitlement and the "supreme being" attitude.. 
at least it must be exhausting for normal ppl, dunno, maybe they 1% and their minions are just fine with lunatics like this one.

I find the Roys equally exhausting as Mattson though.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

Shiv was like the cat that ate the canary on the plane ride home. The unhappy faces on her brothers were pretty hilarious in that pic she sent to Mattson.

Now that Roman has failed to "tightrope walk a straight razor" in order to tank the deal without making the board suspicious (by blowing up at Mattson), I wonder how Kendall is feeling about that? I assume he feels he needs to keep his brother close but he's got to be somewhat annoyed at Roman now. I guess they'll just try and tank the deal by drawing it out like Roman said. "Every email will take 6 months, etc"

Conner used his "carte blanche" and sent Roman a pic of Logan at the exact wrong time for Roman. I think that really pushed him over the edge and caused him to blow up at Mattson.

It was little on the nose but Mattson just whipping it out and peeing all over the majesty of nature was a pretty good visual representation for people of his ilk.

All of the Shiv and Tom stuff was pretty great. Tom flicking her "thick and chewy" earlobe was shocking! It was also amazing how Shiv taunted Tom by telling he she wasn't happy with ATN and needed to get rid of some people, making Tom think she was talking about him, before she mentioned Cyd and even asks him if he wants to fire her. Tom's face was so good in that moment when he realized the turn. Plus she asked him out to dinner! I think now that she's got the upper hand, she feels comfortable dealing with Tom again. Plus, she's pregnant so that probably plays into her decision making. Additionally, I think she needs someone on her side since she's maneuvering against her brothers.

The Mattson and Shiv stuff was good too. Mattson was obviously playing her but it seems like Shiv wanted the deal anyway. Once she walked away from dealing with her brothers and Mattson originally, I think she had decided at that point to do her own thing.    Mattson's flattery was probably transparent to to her, but it probably partially worked anyway. Shiv did tell Tom that he was "conventionally attractive but boring" so it's not like she bought it hook, line and sinker.

There's probably a grain of truth in the stuff between Ebba and Mattson but I think he's greatly exaggerating.

[realityplease]

6 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

I am not at the level of business where I'm privy to the details of mergers and acquisitions, but I seriously doubt anyone behaves as everyone does on this show.  I'll ignore it because it's entertainment, but truly this is just not how it's done.

Not all of course.  But yes, some very much do, and it is.  Depends on the company, the stakes, the personalities, strengths & weaknesses of the negotiators & others involved in the process.  Negotiating tactics vary.  Bluster & insults, push & pull, putting out false narratives or calculated compliments, jockeying for position, trying to get info on the sly, all accompanied with alternating elation and dejection, are not unusual.  Sometimes the momentum of the deal carries the deal through in spite of the behavior of the participants. 

The only thing that rang a bit false to me was the need for the two groups' top execs meet to test the compatibility of the two groups (& formulate a "kill" list) before the deal was struck - usually comes after the deal is reached (to keep trade secrets or weaknesses from exposure, among other things) & there's other ways to gauge compatibility -  but I suppose nothing prevents it from happening first, if both sides are on board with it. 

Other details in the episode, like neither Ken nor Roman sitting in Logan's chair at Waystar, yet each scoping out & taking strategic positions in the conference room with their execs - Roman getting there first, Ken's psycho-babble or shooting some orders when met with new troops on arrival - rang true.  Posturing & optics taking the place of ability.  The fake it 'til you make it mentality. I already miss Logan's sweeping into every room with confidence & purpose.  The sibs don't have that panache, though they try to imitate it or guess what Logan would have done. 

[Sailorgirl26]

I just rewatched the scene where Matsson explains why he wants ATN in the mix, and its where he got Shiv. 

She's sitting in the background, blank expression, watching the brothers as they talk. 

Then Mattson says about ATN, "we see a way back."  Shiv perks up. He then proceeds explaining why its a bad brand -- "Lot of yelling. Small men, big veins. Long term, I don't think news for angry old people works."

And then immediately after that, at the party, he talks to Shiv very earnestly, explaining why he said what he said and that he really only cares about the deal and asking if she honestly thinks the  deal is there. After hooking her with his vision of ATN, he reels her in by being "sincere" with her. 

They then go off for their private conversation. They have their relationship status, PR advice conversation. He never gives her a chance to regroup with the brothers to report back what he said and find out what the brothers' stance is. 

And boom, Matsson gets Shiv. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Sailorgirl26

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Artsda said:

He wasn't even on the list to be at the event to begin with too. Mattson had no idea who he was.

Which led to my personal favorite line in the ep, which I didn't understand because it was in Swedish. But I caught a reference to "Hapsburg" and that made me really laugh. Thanks to the person above who provided the actual translation, which is even better than I imagined.

1 hour ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

Looking at Shiv's actions with Matsson from that lens, it makes a lot more sense. Generally, she seems to be less manipulated than the brothers except when it came to Logan. If Mattson is filling that space, it makes sense given where she is:

I feel like that's part of the Catch-22 though, because everyone has to be on one side or the other, so whatever they do can be seen as a manipulation. It does seem like Shiv has personal interests that line up more with Matsson's, so it's hard to say whether she was being played or just making a move towards what she wanted. Rejecting Matsson just for the sake of rejecting him could also be seen as being influenced by Logan or someone after all.

Shout out to Tom's own explanation for why they're in Norway--"They're all descended from the same rapists."

[realityplease]

18 minutes ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

I just rewatched the scene where Matsson explains why he wants ATN in the mix, and its where he got Shiv. 

She's sitting in the background, blank expression, watching the brothers as they talk. 

Then Mattson says about ATN, "we see a way back."  Shiv perks up. He then proceeds explaining why its a bad brand -- "Lot of yelling. Small men, big veins. Long term, I don't think news for angry old people works."

And boom, Shiv is on board with Matsson. 

Yes.  Shiv, with work experience in politics, is worried about ATN:  politician Mencken putting his hooks into editorial meetings, the soon to be fired Cyd Peach letting him do it, the news not slanting in the direction she'd like.  Tom being there - don't know how that plays out. They still have this weird "dance" between them & of course, what to do about the baby issue. She was very quick to want the deal that offloaded ATN to GoJo as well.  And that way, the sibs don't have to sync ATN with Pierce.

Edited April 24, 2023 by realityplease

[tennisgurl]

I know that he was obviously playing her, but holy shit was the chemistry between Matsson and Shiv fire. Shiv was clearly being manipulated, she could not have preened more when Matsson compared her to Logan, but I think that she had some idea of what she was doing. She got what she wanted, she was always the one who wanted the deal the most, and she's been seething since her brothers got to play boss while she was pushed into the background. She saw a chance to get what she wanted and to come out on top, and she took it. Shiv is probably the smartest of the siblings, she actually had a real job back in season one that she was apparently good at and the chip on her shoulder about feeling screwed over has just gotten bigger and bigger as the years have passed. She was absolutely the one who sealed the deal, she even influenced the Kill List when she specifically mentioned Carolina and Geri as being solid, and she knows it. Her schadenfreude at seeing her brothers sad faces at the end was palpable. The siblings are already turning on each other after only working together for about a week, which is not surprising. They all have their strengths, but they're also their own worst enemies, being easily manipulated due to their massive insecurities and are not anywhere as badass as they like to think they are. 

Watching Roman and Kendall try to manipulate Matsson is truly like watching a couple of guppies trying to fight a shark, they are truly a cover band, playing Logan Roy's greatest hits but without anything that made it a classic. Their attempt at tanking the deal so that they could keep the big boy chair was so obvious, of course Matsson would tell right away what they were up to. It was pretty great watching Roman tell Matsson what a piece of shit he is for not even waiting for their fathers body to be cold to insist they fly out to his playground to talk shop, but I don't think that would have tanked the deal because of that if he didn't want the deal. As weird as he is, he's all about business. He doesn't care if Roman tells him that he hates him and that he thinks he's a garbage person, he's just about the money. 

Its hilarious that one of the Swedes was apparently comparing the Roys to the Hapsburg dynasty, another powerful family that is going to fuck itself out of existence.  

[Dminches]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't dispute what you're saying here. My main point is that Mattson currently has been getting exactly what he wants while the Roys and their associates don't seem to have much in the way of individual or cohesive strategy going (with the possible exception of Shiv, who wants the deal and at least arguably took steps to make it happen).

As far as we saw, none of the Waystar people meaningfully tried to probe GoJo people for weak links, strategies to to get what they want (whether it was approval of the deal, tanking the deal, personal survival past the merger, hot Scandinavian sex) beyond Shiv.

Maybe some of the Waystar people will wake up and smell the lutefisk. But as of now, it doesn't seem likely given where they are at and their characterization.

 

I completely agree that Mattson has the upper hand because the Roys, especially Kendall and Roman, are way out of their league.

Even though Logan was a tyrant, he was accurate when he called them “lightweights.” Frankly, everything he said about them is true.

Mattson didn’t like Logan because Logan had the advantage over him and he knew it.

 

[aghst]

Filming locations for the episode.

https://www.dexerto.com/tv-movies/succession-filming-locations-norway-2123020/

 

Hmm, Norway is already expensive but they've filmed at a luxury hotel in the middle of nowhere.

 

 

 

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Watching Roman and Kendall try to manipulate Matsson is truly like watching a couple of guppies trying to fight a shark, they are truly a cover band, playing Logan Roy's greatest hits but without anything that made it a classic.

This line was especially cutting since just a few weeks ago Roman was literally comparing them to the Beatles with Connor being the guy who won a raffle where the prize was getting to hang out with them.

[Lathund]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Does anyone know what the GoJo people were saying in Swedish?

ETA: According to Esquire:

 

 

The Habsburg quote is actually "Inbred Habsburg giant" in Icelandic-accented Swedish. In addition to that, there are a few times during the scenes at that BBQ where you hear Mattsson speaking Swedish in the background. When Tom is talking about pawn sacrifices Mattsson is speaking at the same time, first part of it I can't make out. 

Mattsson (I think...): "...all the time...but you can divide it" (Not using the word for "divide" you'd normally use when talking about chopping up and selling a corporation for parts)
Someone else (Icelandic dude I think): "yeah yeah, you can do that". 

As Tom walks over to the table, the audio of their conversation moves to the foreground

Mattsson: "I don't know, it's worth thinking about" 

Then the "Quad Squad" conversation before Tom sits down at the table as they say:

Mattsson: "When you've found a track (Or direction/strategy) that works you want to keep working at it. So you don't.. I mean so you don't.. cuz it's so easy to get distracted" ("Once you're on track, keep going" and "Once you have a winning strategy, stick to it" are less direct ways to translate the first sentence, but work better in English)

After some awkward Tom perching, Mattsson says they were talking about France. Which they might have been, but didn't really sound like it. I suspect he just picked a topic he knew Tom wouldn't have anything worthwhile to say about. 

So did the Swedish conversations have any real meaning? Or did they perhaps ask Alexander Skarsgård to just talk in the background and there is no meaning or intent behind it? 

There were some other random background chatter in Swedish in some scenes, but I don't think there was anything more from Mattsson, and most of it was really hard to make out. 

Anyway, I hope there are some massive nerds out there that find this interesting. I always enjoy it when Swedish (Or Danish/Norwegian for that matter) show up in foreign films/shows so just wanted to share. 

 

[Guest]

I'm truly confused and don't know what to think.  Is Mattson playing them? Is Shiv playing him?  On and on. This show is so layered.

[90sfan]

If you would have told me in season 1 that I would sympathize with Roman, I would have told you you're crazy. Yet here I am. He is the least selfish of the siblings and may be a people pleaser in that he wanted the love of his father and he wants the love of his siblings. He was the one who took the partnership the siblings formed the most seriously. He went along with the Pierce deal because it was what Kendall and Shiv wanted. He gets easily convinced because to him what's most important is keeping them happy.

He was the one this episode that kept asking Kendall if they should bring Shiv in the conversation and get her opinion. He went along with Kendall with the plan to mess up the deal, but initially asked if they should check with Shiv. 

Roman has many faults, but if I had to choose the least objectionable sibling it would be him.

[Avabelle]

I probably missed this being mentioned but did anyone acknowledge Roman wearing his dads cardigan throughout the episode?

[Carolina Girl]

12 hours ago, millennium said:

So-and-So is suddenly stepping down as CEO to retire to Margaritaville

Hell, not even the guy who OWNS Margaritaville is retiring......

[Macbeth1966]

There is a reason why her nickname is Shiv.  

They never even felt her knife at their throats before she made her kill.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

I'm truly confused and don't know what to think.  Is Mattson playing them? Is Shiv playing him?  On and on. This show is so layered.

My personal opinion... I don't think Shiv is being played by Mattson.  Or, if she is, she's knowingly getting played, and is also playing him to a certain extent.  She was very composed during that whole scene with the two of them, taking in more info than giving.  She offered her advice on how to handle the potential harassment situation, but that was to show she was competent and could handle things like this.  Her expressions weren't fawning adoration, they were more knowing smirks.  Yeah, Mattson compared her to Logan, and she liked it, but I think she also knew it was a line. 

I guess we'll see how this plays out. Either she's ingrained herself as a Mattson insider, or she's going to get betrayed by him. 

But hey, if I were Shiv, I'd back out of the Pierce deal, cash out my $10 billion from the Waystar sale, retire and go raise my baby in luxurious peace away from all these people. 

[dmc]

I don’t think Madssen is playing them.  I think he really thinks it’s worth more with ATN added.  The ATN real life equivalent Fox makes a sh*t load of money plus anything that influences people has power tied to it.  It basically gives him a wheelhouse to exert power in the US.  
 

Kendall and Roman’s only attachment to ATN is their father. It’s a good deal for two brothers who aren’t that smart at business.  
 

No one buys something for that much $$$ to eff with the Roys. And I think Shiv also wants it gone. It’s less he’s working her than they both want the same thing. 

[susannot]

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

He doesn't have to be a Dr. Doom level mastermind to be obviously better at the corporate Game of Thrones than any of our pretenders to the throne.

Kendall is a superficial thinker with no ability to see more than one or two moves down the line. It seems like every idea he originates is pretty terrible, and he isn't very good at executing on them anyway.

Roman is quick-witted, but can't control his emotions as seen by his outburst at Mattson this episode.

Shiv is probably the best of the siblings at handling the business and politics matters, but has the disadvantage of not having a penis as well as having the least amount of time at Waystar. On top of that, she also fell for Mattson's charm and told him inside info freely. 

Among other things, as things stand, Mattson:

1. was able to get all the Waystar executives to jump at a moment's notice to join him in Norway, even with some still mourning their father

2. get them to agree to a better deal for him that included ATN

3. Assess the execs that he might want to keep after the merger happens (with an assist from Shiv)

4. Smoke out that the CE-bros were trying to tank the deal and neutralize them 

5. either get real advice on what to do about his ex and harassing of her or test Shiv to see how she would respond to a sexual harassment scenario involving him. (Right now I'm leaning toward it being a test. No matter how weird, giving multiple half-liters of blood seems excessive).

6. Lay the groundwork to sleep with Shiv. (One doesn't get someone alone, give drink and drugs to someone in a romantic cabin and ask them what the deal is with their husband as part of idle chatter).

I'd say so far advantage: Mattson.

Yes!  I have not been watching Succession but I did watch tonight's episode only to see Alexander Skarsgard.  I would say that it is game, set, and match over the hapless Roy siblings.

[dmc]

I thought that Shiv calling Kendall on his PR bullshit about Logan in front of Roman was interesting.  I thought this would end up being a huge reveal but Roman seemed nonplussed knowing Kendall was planting stories 

[Guest]

There seem to be a lot of callbacks this season to earlier seasons. I’m watching Season 2, Episode 1 right now and there have been two references to dying/being stuck on a toilet (once referencing Elvis’ death and once telling Logan ‘in 5 years, you don’t want to be…’). Given that the previously on segment featured Tom’s line to Greg about Logan fishing his phone out of the toilet when he died, it feels significant. Also, Roman wearing Logan’s sweater reminds me of season 1 when they thought Logan might be dying and Roman asked Greg to get him a robe or sweater he could have of his dad’s to have his smell near him. 

[Paws]

12 hours ago, ahpny said:

Greg’s status puzzles me. His grandfather - Logan's brother - is apparently still alive. Greg dropped Ewen's name in a prior episode in a typically craven effort to move up the pecking order. I think Ewen still has some leverage in the company through stock ownership or something (unless he sold or gave that to Greenpeace?). Given Logan's death, doesn't Ewen's position potentially improve, and with it, maybe that of Greg? That's never been addressed as far as I recall. Maybe that depends on Logan's will ? Also, Greg's mother is the cousin of the Roy kids, which makes Greg their cousin once removed.

I’m pretty sure that Ewan had a very large share of stock in the company, and given that he only has  1 daughter and a grandson while Logan  has 4 kids and a few grandkids, I think Ewan is now majority stockholder, increasing the position of Greg in the company.  I think Greg and Tom will end up on top…the two “interlopers”  who are family but not family.  Did you see in the airport scene how they TOWERED over Hugo and a bunch of other people who ended up on the kill list? They did not try to even out their heights at all. I know these guys are very very tall for Hollywood, but that seemed intentional.  

[millennium]

I don't get the demand for Alexander Skaarsgard.  He strikes me as a one-note actor.   He's played basically the same character in so many different shows, writers should just start calling whatever character he plays "Alexander Skaarsgard."

[heatherchandler]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:57 AM, Francie said:

I've been scarred by two other 10-episode season shows earlier this year that started somewhere and then went nowhere until the penultimate episode. It'll take a little time to learn to trust again. 

Just curious- what other shows?

Edited April 25, 2023 by heatherchandler
Aaahh shows not shoes

[Bluesky]

On 4/23/2023 at 10:20 PM, BC4ME said:

Am I horrible if I find Matsson attractive? Damn it. Alexander Skarsgard could charm a rattlesnake.

The chemistry between Matsson and Shiv is amazing. 

Not horrible, I just don’t see it.  Rabbit teeth, weak facial features and always plays the weird guy.  He’s kind of gross.   

[Bluesky]

On 4/23/2023 at 11:30 PM, EtheltoTillie said:

Was Shiv pretending to drink and take drugs?  I couldn’t tell. 

Probably because her character is pregnant.   

[Bluesky]

Don’t the ones on the kill list get a huge severance package?  Most were at retirement age so they should be happy. 

[aghst]

14 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

Don’t the ones on the kill list get a huge severance package?  Most were at retirement age so they should be happy. 

My speculation is that Carl, who is giddy about the deal, has a lot of stock, more than other senior execs an more than the younger guys who were on the Norway trip, guys who may have appeared before but seem more like red shirts rather than recurring characters.

 

 

[millennium]

2 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Just curious- what other shoes?

 

 

Don't know, but I bet they were really big shoes.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

3 hours ago, Bluesky said:

Probably because her character is pregnant.   

Yes I know that that’s why I was asking. Was she pretending or really drinking?  I couldn’t tell for sure. 

[cmfran]

Why was Greg even at the retreat? Why is he anywhere, other than to hang out/talk shit with Tom? Does he still have a "job" at ATN? 

Regarding the Swedes, I work for a company that recently got acquired by a Swedish company, and the show really did nail the personality types. Not Madssen per se, but some of the others. Incredibly nice people, but very business savvy.

[DrSparkles]

9 hours ago, millennium said:

I don't get the demand for Alexander Skaarsgard.  He strikes me as a one-note actor.   He's played basically the same character in so many different shows, writers should just start calling whatever character he plays "Alexander Skaarsgard."

Watch Generation Kill.

[dmc]

Roman and Ken are the worst negotiators.

 

Madssen says he wants to add in ATN

Roman responds with Why?

and Ken is like we need to take a beat like he has no contingency plan for Madssen to say anything other than what he wants.

I feel so far it’s clear that Ken and Roman are kind of incompetent.  I thought it was just me but the show creator agreed in the HBO podcast 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by dmc

[Francie]

7 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Just curious- what other shoes?

 

One was 1923. The first 3 episodes were great, and then it stalled for the next 7 and abruptly ended without any resolution of the problems presented in the first episode. It was all, "stay tuned until next year! Or two, or whenever, Harrison Ford's a very busy man)." The other was a sci fi show also on Paramount+ that sputtered and stretched until the very end when it magically wrapped everything up in the last few minutes. 

Looking again at Roman, Kendall, and Shiv, they all have potential, but they are each their own worst enemies. I was watching again the scene where Matsson was making fun of the entire Roy claim in front of them and his colleagues, and Kendall did a great job of shutting it down with, "Maybe it's funnier with subtitles" and saying enough of the bullshit. Matsson's tone changes and even his body language shifted a little, as he half-hollowly, half-sincerely apologized. Kendall called him out and got him to back down and return to task. But then he had to turn around and blow up the entire deal because that's what he wanted. 

 

[laurakaye]

On 4/24/2023 at 12:11 AM, lucindabelle said:

Your earlobes are chewy and meaty? 
Kudos to whoever wrote that line because it was wonderfully bizarre. I couldn’t do it if I tried.

That was a highly weird and uncomfortable scene to watch - so naturally, I watched it three times.  I constantly try to parse out if Shiv somehow loves Tom, loathes Tom, or only keeps him around to step on when she's feeling high and mighty.  And at the end of the episode, she asks him to dinner after she scuffs dirt on his shoes and he flicks her earlobe.  She seems to want to be able to torment him and expect him to never retaliate.  These two are so bizarre with each other, but I can't take my eyes off of them when they're onscreen together.

21 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

And him (Madssen) calling her to ask for a picture . . . was crazy sexual. The way he asked her to send a picture of the bros. was the way anyone else would ask for a sext pic. I absolutely was expecting him to say a dirty picture of her, not of the brothers' faces. 

That was such a charged scene.  My first thought, maybe misplaced, was - Madssen has been known to post to social media to the point where Logan was concerned about doing business with him.  Shiv sends Madssen a picture of her brother's faces on the plane...if he then shares that picture, Kendall and Roman are going to know exactly where it came from.  Was that Shiv's intent? 

 

13 hours ago, dmc said:

I thought that Shiv calling Kendall on his PR bullshit about Logan in front of Roman was interesting.  I thought this would end up being a huge reveal but Roman seemed nonplussed knowing Kendall was planting stories 

That stuck me as well - why wasn't Roman more concerned or upset, since he seemed to be very against it when talking with Karolina and Hugo?

 

10 hours ago, Paws said:

I think Greg and Tom will end up on top…the two “interlopers”  who are family but not family.  Did you see in the airport scene how they TOWERED over Hugo and a bunch of other people who ended up on the kill list? They did not try to even out their heights at all. I know these guys are very very tall for Hollywood, but that seemed intentional.  

And in the scene outside where Tom was standing with Greg right before Tom was about to approach Madssen's table, Tom and Greg were positioned so that they were eye-to-eye.  Did it mean anything other than that they were standing on a slight incline?  I don't know, but I read into everything on this show.  It seemed to suggest that Tom and Greg were on an equal playing field.

Roman tells Connor no, do NOT send me any pictures of our father's body.  Connor then does exactly that.  I don't know if that was Connor being scatterbrained or purposefully spiteful, since he literally just got married and is now alone in charge of the funeral arrangements.  The relationship between Connor and Roman seems to have been close when they were younger so I found it odd that Connor would do that to Roman, specifically.

The idea that Kendall and Roman have to climb aboard a lift and ascend to Mount Madssen to discuss the deal was both humorous and exhausting.  It's all very performative, and I'm sure it goes on in real life all the time, but I thought Roman was going to break down way harder than he did.  Maybe it's still coming.

 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

I constantly try to parse out if Shiv somehow loves Tom, loathes Tom, or only keeps him around to step on when she's feeling high and mighty.

I feel like even when they were "on" there was a weird vibe of "does she love him or just love having someone to boss around?" And a weird counter vibe of "does he love her or does he love being close to the center of power?"

[chaifan]

4 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Yes I know that that’s why I was asking. Was she pretending or really drinking?  I couldn’t tell for sure. 

I rewatched that scene yesterday.  She definitely doesn't take any drugs, she's just fiddling with the coke vial and then puts it back on the table.  She puts the glass of whatever up to her lips a few times, but the amount doesn't really change.  So she's either taking really small sips, or pretending to.  We also never see what was poured in the glass.  It's also possible she came into the room with it and it's not actually alcohol.  I've seen newly pregnant women "fake it" with a glass of soda water and a lime, when they don't want to let people know yet about the pregnancy and don't want to tip their hand by not drinking.

 

[Milburn Stone]

On 4/23/2023 at 9:53 PM, chaifan said:

I'm not sure if Roman and Ken truly fucked it up in the sense that what they said/did would have truly made Matsson walk away from the deal.  I think he's all business and really didn't care what was going on with those two...

I agree with your main point, but the personal does enter into it with Matsson, to the extent he wanted Shiv to text him a photo of their faces on the plane. He knew they wanted to walk away from the deal (he's too good at reading people not to know that), and that now they can't. He's looking at their sullen faces as he luxuriates in a great big bubble bath of revenge.

[Jordan Baker]

On 4/24/2023 at 12:11 AM, lucindabelle said:

Your earlobes are chewy and meaty? 
Kudos to whoever wrote that line because it was wonderfully bizarre. I couldn’t do it if I tried.

This was my favorite line of the night. The writers are terrific.

I foresee Emmy nominations all around, with one possible exception. I agree with the posters who think Nicholas Braun/Greg seems off this season. I don't think his presence would be missed if he weren't there. 

OK, I have a question. I have always been a bit squigged out to see a whole animal roasting on a pit, and so I tried to avoid watching the spinning meat. Were those goats? Lambs? Deer?

[heatherchandler]

Uugh I am also squigged out by the poor creatures (guessing pig) roasting on a spit.  

[aghst]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

Roman and Ken are the worst negotiators.

 

Madssen says he wants to add in ATN

Roman responds with Why?

and Ken is like we need to take a beat like he has no contingency plan for Madssen to say anything other than what he wants.

I feel so far it’s clear that Ken and Roman are kind of incompetent.  I thought it was just me but the show creator agreed in the HBO podcast 

 

Among the many podcasts on the show is the one by Slate Money where they have on some business journalists who've written about these huge mega mergers.

They said it wouldn't be the CEO just winging it as depicted on the show.  They'd be flanked by lawyers and bankers and they'd constantly consult the data crunched by the bankers.

They don't just come up with some general bottom line numbers on instinct.  It's all driven by financial analysis.  The board and the shareholders would sue if they find out they're not using due diligence.

Even Logan did it this way, he was sizing up his counterparts and took pride in being able to read people.  But he wanted to win, get a better deal and have his counterparts know that he got the better of them.

So the brothers also personalize this negotiation.  Kendall says lets bleed the Swede and Roman supposedly is simpatico or thinks he is based on his initial interactions with Mattson in season 3.  

But most of all they want to "win" which is how Logan measured the value of deals.  Look at how they negotiated with Pierce, they just kept pulling higher and higher numbers, didn't care if the deal made financial sense, just that they "won" by outbidding their father.

Mattson also approaches it the same way, he wants to win a war of wills.  Thing is, he's got software engineering chops and should be more data-driven, not mixing into this emotional contest and one upsmanship -- he probably got the best zinger by calling Kendall and Roman a tribute band.

 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 4/24/2023 at 9:55 AM, dmc said:

He absolutely did.  It always amazes me people who are surprised that powerful men do dumb things and admit to it.  It’s the entitlement that allows them to do this.  

I don't doubt that there are entitled men who do dumb things, because we have ample evidence of that. 

I do doubt that there are too many entitled men as smart as Mattson seem to be who unnecessarily bring up the dumb, creepy things they do to people that they do not need to bring them up to, who aren't in a particularly good position to help them and who are potentially in a position to hurt them. 

It's not as though Shiv is some sort of specialist in smoothing over sexual harassment, or was in a position to give him any profound advice as to how to deal with the ex. And taking his confession as true, telling Shiv about it is a risk that she would be weirded out by him both professionally and personally.

Given his wealth, Mattson presumably has access to attorneys, non-Ebbe flaks, therapists, friends, etc. who could give him advice on what to do about Ebbe if that were a genuine situation. Why turn to Shiv, who he literally just met, and who has interests that might be adverse to his?

Edited April 25, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[ahpny]

5 hours ago, cmfran said:

Why was Greg even at the retreat? Why is he anywhere, other than to hang out/talk shit with Tom? Does he still have a "job" at ATN? 

Didn't the Swedes send a list of people they wanted to (or demanded) attend, and presumably Greg's name was on that, for whatever reason?

3 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Shiv sends Madssen a picture of her brother's faces on the plane...if he then shares that picture, Kendall and Roman are going to know exactly where it came from.  Was that Shiv's intent? 

Well, they would know it came from someone on the plane, though not necessarily Shiv. But I don't think that scene was about potential social media posting. Shiv's intent seemed to be to revenge against her  brothers for freezing her out, while simultaneously worming her way into Madssen's world to enhance her soft landing in the acquired company once (and if) the deal closes. But her pix sharing is more than just brother betrayal; it's essentially corporate espionage because it informs Madssen what her brothers' mental state is. That tells Madssen how the brothers truly feel about the merger and what was posturing ("Scubby-doing") on their part and what was not. That's quite valuable information, and Shiv's conveyance of it with little to no thought is rather telling in and of itself. She's clearly chosen team Madssen, seemingly at least in part because of, not despite, his clearly sociopathic tendencies. She's lost a sociopathic father, but gained a sociopathic business partner.