Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Lugal]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:15 PM, JTMacc99 said:

(Kind of like the way I say macamadamia nut because that's the way Homer Simpson pronounced it, and I like his way better than the real one.)

It's funny, but Daffy Duck actually changed the way people say despicable (originally the stress was on the first syllable) because the cartoons were where a lot of people first heard the word.

On 12/27/2023 at 6:52 PM, partofme said:

When I was in college I was told it was the way I said “bought”.  No idea how I say it.

Question, do you say "cot" and "caught" differently?  Because that usually identifies people from the East Coast.

[Ancaster]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:57 AM, Ancaster said:

I gave up on that one decades ago.  It's not difficult, you're right, but I think people don't know there's a difference (or even in some cases that the word "fewer" exists and serves a purpose in its own quiet little way).  I just inwardly roll my eyes, correct them silently, and metaphorically pat myself on the back for being so unutterably and insufferably superior.

Quoting myself,  but I felt I need to add that the "them" I correct are the "people", not "my eyes".  This is the grammar thread after all.  Le sigh.

[Quof]

2 hours ago, AstridM said:

I’m not ready to accept this! 😆

If we stop trying to correct them, the cretins win.  

[Mondrianyone]

My boyfriend in college was studying acting at the NYU School of the Arts, and he told me that their speech professor taught them they should pronounce "drawer" as "draw." She was a fairly famous actress, so maybe she knew what she was talking about. Search me.

[Bastet]

Over the years, I've come across enough people who pronounce "drawer" as "draw" that I barely register it anymore, but a couple of times I have seen it spelled as "draw" and that was a couple of times too many for my poor little pedantic brain.

[chitowngirl]

Apparently there is a different pronunciation for Barry and berry & Mary, marry, and merry. It comes up on Jeopardy when a contestant is judged wrong because of pronunciation. A lively discussion in the Jeopardy thread ensues!

[Bastet]

23 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

Apparently there is a different pronunciation for Barry and berry & Mary, marry, and merry.

In some regions, but the majority of Americans don't differentiate (which is why that Barry/Berry Final Jeopardy ruling was bullshit) -- the famous Harvard Dialect Survey found more than half of respondents said marry, merry, and Mary the same:      

Quote

     a. all 3 are the same (56.88%)
     b. all 3 are different (17.34%)
     c. Mary and merry are the same; marry is different (8.97%)
     d. merry and marry are the same; Mary is different (0.96%)
     e. Mary and marry are the same; merry is different (15.84%)

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Bastet

[stewedsquash]

@chitowngirl I do pronounce those words  differently. It’s a subtle difference but it’s there. I was also confused by a poster who said the didn’t say Don and dawn differently. 
I don’t know if it is a Nashville thing but I cringe when I hear a radio person from there that I listen to say adolt for adult.
 

[partofme]

5 hours ago, Lugal said:

Question, do you say "cot" and "caught" differently?  Because that usually identifies people from the East Coast.

Yes I do. 

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

Apparently there is a different pronunciation for Barry and berry & Mary, marry, and merry. It comes up on Jeopardy when a contestant is judged wrong because of pronunciation. A lively discussion in the Jeopardy thread ensues!

Yes as far as I’m concerned these are all pronounced differently.  

[SoMuchTV]

Language is fun, right?  Cot/caught, Don/Dawn, Erin/Aaron, Barry/berry, Mary/merry/marry, they're all the same to me.  Yet somehow I'm apparently the only person still alive who hears a difference between wine and whine.  Go figure.

[stewedsquash]

@SoMuchTV  I can’t explain it but how I tell that I pronounce things is to say them and notice my mouth movements. I never thought about wine and whine but when I say them and pay attention to my mouth movement it is different for those two words. When I say wine my lips purse center out. When I say whine my lips go towards my teeth and also the outer edge of my mouth goes towards my ears.

[Ancaster]

5 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Language is fun, right?  Cot/caught, Don/Dawn, Erin/Aaron, Barry/berry, Mary/merry/marry, they're all the same to me.  Yet somehow I'm apparently the only person still alive who hears a difference between wine and whine.  Go figure.

I loved shapeshifter's hug reaction to your comment so much I had to give you one too.  Especially since I now refuse to use the disturbing LOL emoji.

And by "hear" do you mean you make a difference between the way you say wine and whine?  Because I do too. My friends think I'm a pretententious git but for some reason they still love me.

[Ancaster]

I think I said something upthread about giving up on fewer ever being used correctly and consistently.  One thing that I don't think I will ever not hate is the incorrect use of unctuous on cooking shows.  It's been the word du jour for a few years now, and people think they're so clever when they use it, talking about "an unctuous mouthfeel", or "the delightful, unctuous feeling as the icecream slipped down my throat."  I just want to grab said throat and throttle it.

This person (Dickens' Uriah Heep) is the perfect example of unctuous, and I don't think they want his oleaginous self anywhere near their dinner table, lest he drip on their confit duck:

 

 

[stewedsquash]

I can’t remember if Top Chef judges use it in a pleasant meaning or off putting meaning when they use unctuous. It seems like it became popular around the same time or right behind the word umami. It took me a while to figure out that while I understood umami is an actual taste, flavor among chefs and foodies, unctuous was a texture and mouth feel description. 
There are a lot of umami memes that are funny in that “it doesn’t mean anything/no one knows what it means” way. I haven’t seen any for unctuous. 
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/unctuous-food-words-hate_n_3023034

[annzeepark914]

"At this point in time"  is redundant and always makes me cringe. I believe good old Jimmy Carter started folks down the nu-ku-lar highway back in the day (and  wasn't he a nuclear engineer, graduate of the Naval Academy?) That's another cringe-worthy word for me.

[Anela]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:36 AM, Ancaster said:

People who don't use anymore properly anymore.

I hope that I do. "Anymore" is something that doesn't happen anymore, and "any more" would be used if you're asking if anything is left of something. Like a slice of cheesecake. 

[annzeepark914]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:05 PM, Browncoat said:

Almost as bad as the local travel person pronouncing Mackinac Island as it is written.  Apparently someone alerted him to the mispronunciation -- later ads I've seen have him pronouncing it "Mackinaw" like it should be.

I love to say Mack-inack. It drives my Michigander husband nuts & he always corrects my pronunciation 😎.

[Lugal]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:20 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Language is fun, right?  Cot/caught, Don/Dawn, Erin/Aaron, Barry/berry, Mary/merry/marry, they're all the same to me.  Yet somehow I'm apparently the only person still alive who hears a difference between wine and whine.  Go figure.

The wine-whine merger happened nearly everywhere else in North America accept southern Appalachia.  I definitely use a different vowel between cot and caught, but marry and Barry are weird in that I randomly switch between using the same sound as Mary/merry and berry, or a lower /æ/ vowel.  Bury however, to me rhymes with Murray (that Philadelphia influence).

[Ancaster]

19 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

"At this point in time"  is redundant and always makes me cringe. I believe good old Jimmy Carter started folks down the nu-ku-lar highway back in the day (and  wasn't he a nuclear engineer, graduate of the Naval Academy?) That's another cringe-worthy word for me.

I've always ascribed this to Bush the elder (as opposed to Bush the lesser) so of course I asked President Google.  This is what I got:

• Notable users. The U.S. presidents Dwight D. Eisenhower, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and vice president Walter Mondale used this pronunciation.

[Milburn Stone]

23 hours ago, Lugal said:

The wine-whine merger happened nearly everywhere else in North America accept southern Appalachia.

I say them the same, and am curious how else to say whine. My guess is, whine would be pronounced with a soft exhalation of breath through a small round mouth on the "wh"? 

[Lugal]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

I say them the same, and am curious how else to say whine. My guess is, whine would be pronounced with a soft exhalation of breath through a small round mouth on the "wh"?

I also say them the same too, and the pronunciation of "wh" doesn't seem overly precise.  It can be a voiceless /w/ sound or more of a /hw/.

[shapeshifter]

I say both "wine" and "whine" the same, but I recognize the different, breathier "whine" that I hear pronounced by old Hollywood actors who studied diction in the 1940s and 50s.

What aggravates me is seeing "whining" spelled "whinging" or "whingeing."
Apparently it is correct in British English, but it's not one that I've heard pronounced, so reading it makes me want to correct it, which in turn annoys me.

[stewedsquash]

I say wine short and clipped. I say whine with a slight long round middle. Both as one syllable.

I agree about the British spelling and also have no idea how to pronounce it. Came across it in the royals discussions ( not discussing royals here; just stating where I saw it).

[Shelbie]

Whinging is a great word. I use it when people are endlessly moaning usually about stuff they could change but don’t.
It rhymes with cringing.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Shelbie said:

It rhymes with cringing

That helps a tiny bit.
I kept picturing birds winging (rhymes with singing) their way across the sky.

I was especially bothered by someone using “whinging” and “whineging” nearly a dozen times in a comment somewhere. (Reddit, maybe?)

To be fair, I’ve used the word “stupid” repeatedly in the same manner when I was ranting at my ex about his latest thoughtless exploit.

But “stupid” is more clearly understood across dialects, and if you’re going to complain, you might as well make it clear what’s bugging you. Right?

But whining (or whinging) about somebody’s whining (or whinging) is just, well, stupid — as well as hypocritical.
IDK.🤷🏻‍♀️
Maybe they were making fun of people whining or whinging about whining or whinging?

[annzeepark914]

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I say them the same, and am curious how else to say whine. My guess is, whine would be pronounced with a soft exhalation of breath through a small round mouth on the "wh"? 

I posted not too long ago somewhere in this forum that my mom took an elocution class in high school (in NYC). We could hear the "h" in her pronunciation of where, what, why, when. But I never heard it when she said "whine" (& I was a big whiner when I was bored so I heard that word a lot 😁).

[StatisticalOutlier]

I think Texas's motto should be "Land o' Homophones."  They have the classic pin/pen, berry/bury, cot/caught, etc.  But they go where other regions don't, like with hunter and hundred:  The deer hunner was excited to find a hunner dollar bill lying there right on the ground.  Pronounced exactly the same.

I remember a guy named Denny, from up north, joining a group of us Texans.  He introduced himself as Denny, and we were all, "Hi, Dinny."  So he says, "No, it's Denny," so we were all, oh, Danny!  "No, Denny."  ::confusion::  "Never mind."

In my household, horse came out as "harse," much to my sister's humiliation when she heard herself do it at the elite college she went to as a bumpkin.  And my family knew someone named Corky and my mom was saying Corky this and Corky that, and my boyfriend at the time later asked, "Why does she keep talking about car keys?" 

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I think Texas's motto should be "Land o' Homophones."  They have the classic pin/pen, berry/bury, cot/caught, etc.  But they go where other regions don't, like with hunter and hundred:  The deer hunner was excited to find a hunner dollar bill lying there right on the ground.  Pronounced exactly the same.

I remember a guy named Denny, from up north, joining a group of us Texans.  He introduced himself as Denny, and we were all, "Hi, Dinny."  So he says, "No, it's Denny," so we were all, oh, Danny!  "No, Denny."  ::confusion::  "Never mind."

In my household, horse came out as "harse," much to my sister's humiliation when she heard herself do it at the elite college she went to as a bumpkin.  And my family knew someone named Corky and my mom was saying Corky this and Corky that, and my boyfriend at the time later asked, "Why does she keep talking about car keys?" 

I've always imagined all y'all speaking with no accents whatsoever. 

BTW, should the title of this thread be changed to something else?
— especially considering that there is the "Say What!: "LITERALLY!" And Other Offenders On The Grammar Police Docket" thread, and that this thread does not seem to focus on grammar at all.
If so, what?
 

[annzeepark914]

17 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I've always imagined all y'all speaking with no accents whatsoever. 

BTW, should the title of this thread be changed to something else?
— especially considering that there is the "Say What!: "LITERALLY!" And Other Offenders On The Grammar Police Docket" thread, and that this thread does not seem to focus on grammar at all.
If so, what?
 

How 'bout, "You tawk funny"? JK. Yeah, we need a title for these discussions on how we all have different pronunciations of words, even though we're speaking the same language. 

[Milburn Stone]

20 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

How 'bout, "You tawk funny"? JK.

I want that to be a TV series where people can't understand each other.

[mmecorday]

I hate it when people try to make the pronoun I possessive. For example, "My husband and I's marriage has never been stronger." 

[Milburn Stone]

🤮

[chitowngirl]

5 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I want that to be a TV series where people can't understand each other.

I would watch that!

[annzeepark914]

5 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I want that to be a TV series where people can't understand each other.

I've got the two hosts: Ashley and Ryan Eldredge from Maine Cabin Masters!! She swallows half her syllables and he babbles away in supposedly English but I need closed caption (& can never get it to work on this show...probably because the "translators" can't understand a word he says).

[ABay]

A show where they don't understand each other would be a change from all the ones where I can't understand them. Enunciate, damn you!

[Giuseppe]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:20 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Erin/Aaron

Sorry to jump in, but this one's always bugged me since I love the name Aaron and hate to hear it pronounced "wrong" to my ears. I always say it's Aaron like the A sound in Apple, and Erin is pronounced as Air-en. That said, i'm glad my name is not Aaron, because I'd surely be tired of hearing people calling me Erin. My last name is hard enough for people to pronounce, lol.

I also say Barry/Berry, and Marry/Merry differently. No change, though, between Mary and Merry.

And just to keep it on grammar:

On 1/4/2024 at 1:35 PM, mmecorday said:

I hate it when people try to make the pronoun I possessive. For example, "My husband and I's marriage has never been stronger."

Drives me bonkers. I always have to fight the urge to correct people when I hear this., or when they use I as the object. I have a co-worker who will always end her emails with "Any questions, please let Giuseppe or I know". No, child. Please let Giuseppe know. Please let me know. Therefore, please let Giuseppe or me know (or, please let me or Giuseppe know, as I think that's the preferred order).

It's the same annoyance I get when I hear "Him and his dad" or "her and her friend" used as a subject. I know this has already been covered here multiple times, lol.

[Ancaster]

In The New York Times Magazine I recently read a blurb about The Richard Burton Diaries.  The author of the blurb takes the time to point to out that "Strictly speaking, this book is more a diary than a journal".  Ya think?  Did you read the title before you typed?

Mind you, this is after he has already mentioned  Burton's previously published posthumous diaries.  Perhaps the guy should just read his reviews before he submits them.

Edited January 6 by Ancaster

[Ancaster]

I can't stand it when people ask for permission to do something by saying something like, "Do you mind if I close the door/smoke/ask you a question/eat the last slice of pie" and the response is, "Sure."  "Sure" means, "Yes, I do mind, please don't do it."

This is doubtless a lost battle if it were ever a battle to begin with, but I don't suppose it will ever not bother me.  🤷🏾‍♂️

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I can't stand it when people ask for permission to do something by saying something like, "Do you mind if I close the door/smoke/ask you a question/eat the last slice of pie" and the response is, "Sure."  "Sure" means, "Yes, I do mind, please don't do it."

This is doubtless a lost battle if it were ever a battle to begin with, but I don't suppose it will ever not bother me.  🤷🏾‍♂️

In real life, I'd probably say nothing.
But reading the set up here, I can imagine myself responding by airily and imperviously saying:
"Sure, I do mind."

[Haleth]

NVM

Edited January 17 by Haleth

[SoMuchTV]

According to the latest mod note I can find, pronunciation is fair game here, so…

is anyone else bugged when people say zoo-ology (rather than zo-ology)?  I mean, zoo-ology would need to be spelled zooology! Or is that just another fight that’s been lost and I should just ignore those kid on my lawn?

[Anduin]

I have never heard another pronunciation than zoo-ology. Have you actually heard zo-ology? Do you use it? Given I say zoo-ology, I'm going to say ignore those kids.

[annzeepark914]

31 minutes ago, Anduin said:

I have never heard another pronunciation than zoo-ology. Have you actually heard zo-ology? Do you use it? Given I say zoo-ology, I'm going to say ignore those kids.

Yup. I've also only heard zoo-ology, no matter where in the country I've lived: NE, SE and Mid-Atlantic. 

Heh heh...while getting a mug out this morning, I saw my "Cawfee" mug & put it back out on the counter. Many years ago, I saw a mug with that word on it in a catalog or magazine. I finally decided to make my own & bought a plain, big mug. I just printed the word using a magic marker, so it can't go in the dishwasher. I use it to hold pens. Cracks me up. We Cawfee folks are one of a kind 😁.

[Milburn Stone]

45 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

Yup. I've also only heard zoo-ology, no matter where in the country I've lived

Me too, including coming out of my own mouth. Now I'm self-conscious. Maybe I'll start saying zo-ology. (But then people will silently think, "Oh, look at him, Mr. Zo-ology!")

[SoMuchTV]

But zoo-ology doesn’t make sense! There’s not enough o’s!  That would be like saying cooperate as coo-operate!

Obviously this is a losing battle but I swear that’s how I learned it. 
 

ETA:  aha! I’m not completely nuts!  I found this on the American Heritage Dictionary site:

Quote

Usage Note: Traditionally, the first syllable of zoology has been pronounced as (zō), rhyming with toe. However, most likely due to the familiarity of the word zoo (which is merely a shortened form of zoological garden), the pronunciation of the first syllable as (zoo) is also commonly heard. In our 2017 survey, 89 percent of the Usage Panel found the (zō-) pronunciation acceptable and 72 percent found the (zoo-) pronunciation acceptable. Also, 55 percent reported using the (zō-) pronunciation and 45 percent using the (zoo-) pronunciation in their own speech. While both pronunciations are acceptable, the (zō-) pronunciation may be perceived as more scientific.

 

Edited January 18 by SoMuchTV
Further research, for who knows what reason

[JTMacc99]

Here you go!

Cambridge Dictionary gives

• USA pronunciation as zoʊˈɑː.lə.dʒi, and
• UK a zuːˈɒl.ə.dʒi

There are links on the web page that will let you hear them both. So if you want to say zoo-ology, just throw in a little British accent when you do it, and you're good to go.

[shapeshifter]

31 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

Here you go!

Cambridge Dictionary gives

• USA pronunciation as zoʊˈɑː.lə.dʒi, and
• UK a zuːˈɒl.ə.dʒi

There are links on the web page that will let you hear them both. So if you want to say zoo-ology, just throw in a little British accent when you do it, and you're good to go.

And now, in my typically inept attempt to not violate social norms, I'm thinking that if I have an occasion to use the word zoology in conversation, I will speak the entire sentence with a British accent whilst pronouncing zoology with a long O as in toe. 

Texting, emailing, and posting online have saved me from a multitude of humiliations.

[Browncoat]

I am a biologist, and have always pronounced it zo-ology.  Zoo-ology would be the study of zoos.

I am with you, @SoMuchTV!

[annzeepark914]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

And now, in my typically inept attempt to not violate social norms, I'm thinking that if I have an occasion to use the word zoology in conversation, I will speak the entire sentence with a British accent whilst pronouncing zoology with a long O as in toe. 

😁 Thank you for including "whilst". For some reason, it always causes me to silently chuckle whenever I read or hear that word. But my favorite Brit word is "chuffed". I like the look of the word and the sound of it when spoken. I just wish it were used in the US as I'd love to say it. 

[meep.meep]

E.B. White claimed he bought a brand of sheep shearing lotion because they used "whilst" on the label.

I work with many zoologists and they all pronounce it zoo-ology.