Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Cobalt Stargazer]

20 hours ago, Ohwell said:

If I see someone write "no one" as "noone" one more time........

Arrrggghhhhh!!!

My personal favorite is 'there' and 'their'. And sometimes even 'they're', and I'm not even sure of how that would happen. Ugh.

[kassygreene]

4 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

My personal favorite is 'there' and 'their'. And sometimes even 'they're', and I'm not even sure of how that would happen. Ugh.

there/their/they're is a common typo of mine, as if ov instead of of.  I sub-vocalize when I type, and sometimes I have an accent.  But the there/their/they're is a common enough error of mine that I'm usually pretty good at catching it, and extremely embarassed when I don't.

[Shannon L.]

I heard something the other day that was like nails on a chalkboard to me, but then I heard it a few more times from different reports and now think maybe I'm the one who sounds like nails on a chalkboard: 

Exit.  I've always pronounced it eks-it, but all I've hard lately from reporters is eggz-it.  Funny how I can go years without noticing a pronunciation, but suddenly it hits me and then I hear it all the time. 

Quote

as if ov instead of of.

I can understand that as a typo, but what bugs me is when I see "should of" or "could of".  Should have, could have (or Should've/Could've if you will), please.

[Moose135]

1 hour ago, Shannon L. said:

Exit.  I've always pronounced it eks-it, but all I've hard lately from reporters is eggz-it.  Funny how I can go years without noticing a pronunciation, but suddenly it hits me and then I hear it all the time.

I wonder if it is a regional thing.  I've always pronounced it eggz-it.

[Pyralis]

It may be regional - I tend to pronounce it with the "g" sound.  I also have the Southern Ontario "shudder" for "shutter" if I don't watch myself.

[riley702]

Here in the middle of Indiana, I've always said it "eggz-it" *shrugs* But it really bugs me when people say "axe" instead of "ask", so I admit I'm inconsistent. I say highway or interstate instead of freeway. Rarely is I-70 called anything else, but I live by State Road 267 and it's almost always just 267. That's also close to US 40, which is also called Highway 40, and rarely, 40. That last is mostly in directions, such as "take 267 up to 40 and then cut across to Dan Jones".

Edited June 29, 2016 by riley702

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, riley702 said:

 ...But it really bugs me when people say "axe" instead of "ask", so I admit I'm inconsistent....

Ah, but The Bard himself (Shakespeare) spelled it axe.

[SVNBob]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

but The Bard himself (Shakespeare) spelled it axe.

Well, he was fond of cutting remarks....

[Sandman87]

Yeah, he was a really sharp fellow.

One of the reporters on our local station keeps saying forecasted instead of forecast, as in "temperatures are forecasted to reach 100 degrees." It's technically not incorrect, but sounds really stupid. Very annoying.

[topanga]

Do you guys pronounce "pen" and "pin" differently? I know they're different words, but they sound the same to my ears. 

[Bastet]

Yes, I pronounce them differently.

But I pronounce Mary, merry, and marry the same.  I know there's a name for that one, but I've never heard one for pen/pin.  But, lo and behold, Wiki has: the pin/pen merger.

You might like perusing the results of the Harvard dialect survey conducted about 15 years ago.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Bastet

[Rick Kitchen]

What about "cot" and "caught"?  I think I pronounce them differently, but when I say them out loud, they kind of sound the same.

[ABay]

Different.

Jeopardy occasionally annoys the hell out of me by having a homonyms category because we don't all pronounce words the same way. So Don and dawn are not homonyms for me, and neither are caught and cot. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by ABay
Conjunction junction what's your function...

[Princess Sparkle]

15 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Yes, I pronounce them differently.

But I pronounce Mary, merry, and marry the same.  I know there's a name for that one, but I've never heard one for pen/pin.  But, lo and behold, Wiki has: the pin/pen merger.

You might like perusing the results of the Harvard dialect survey conducted about 15 years ago.

Well, I just spent the past 10 minutes looking at the results for Illinois (my home state) and saying all the words out loud to see if they matched up with the majority (they did).  

 

9 minutes ago, Rick Kitchen said:

What about "cot" and "caught"?  I think I pronounce them differently, but when I say them out loud, they kind of sound the same.

I pronounce them the same, and until just now, I didn't realize that some people pronounce them differently.  Then again, I was similarly confused when Dawn showed up on Mad Men, and people said that they pronounced Don/dawn differently (two words that I pronounce exactly the same). 

[topanga]

17 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Yes, I pronounce them differently.

But I pronounce Mary, merry, and marry the same.  I know there's a name for that one, but I've never heard one for pen/pin.

You might like perusing the results of the Harvard dialect survey conducted about 15 years ago.

Great survey. I didn't see pen/pin, but another site told me that the way I pronounce the words suggests I'm from the South--which I am! (or Bakersfield, California).

[Bastet]

Two regional pronunciations that drive me nuts are quarter as kor-ter and coupon as kyoo-pon (I have a visceral hatred of the first), so it's interesting to see that about 30% of respondents to that survey pronounce each word that way.  I need to avoid a lot of the country.

[Rick Kitchen]

I grew up in California hearing everybody around me say kyoo-pon and I make a conscious effort not to pronounce it that way.  I also grew in almond growing country in Northern California, and they pronounce "almond" there as amm-und, not ahm-und.  I had to learn to re-pronounce that, too.

[Shannon L.]

Quote

You might like perusing the results of the Harvard dialect survey conducted about 15 years ago.

That's really interesting, but now I'm really confused.  I thought "ah" and "aw" were pronounced the same until I got to "crayon" and saw that there was one pronunciation as "cray-ahn" and another as "cray-awn".  Then again with "Florida" as "Flah-rida" and "Flaw-rida".  How else can you pronounce "ah"?

[shapeshifter]

Having a second generation mother and first generation father who believed the only way to succeed was through proper pronunciation, I say all of those pairs differently (unless I'm doing an impersonation).
To all who say pin and pen the same, cot and caught the same, etc., I have a question: Do they always sound the same to you, regardless of how they are pronounced? Or is that question not answerable?

[Rick Kitchen]

I can hear the different sound when other people pronounce them differently (in fact, in the South, don't they pronounce "pin" with two syllables?)  But I can't do it, myself, or it sounds fake when I do.  My mother, who grew up in Oklahoma, pronounces "hawk" differently than I do, and I can't get the sound right when I try to imitate her pronunciation.

[St. Claire]

1 hour ago, Rick Kitchen said:

I grew up in California hearing everybody around me say kyoo-pon and I make a conscious effort not to pronounce it that way.  I also grew in almond growing country in Northern California, and they pronounce "almond" there as amm-und, not ahm-und.  I had to learn to re-pronounce that, too.

Wait, neither of those pronunciations have an "l" sound. Am I the only person who says all-mund (with a swallowed schwa moreso than an actual short "u" sound)?

Incidentally, I say coo-pon, kwar-ter, cray-ahn; I'm in central Maryland but no not have the stereotypical Baltimore accent.

Quote

To all who say pin and pen the same, cot and caught the same, etc., I have a question: Do they always sound the same to you, regardless of how they are pronounced? Or is that question not answerable?

While I do sound pretty much the same whether I am saying "cot" or "caught," I do hear difference when others pronounce the words if they have stronger accents than I have. Sometime "cot" has a broader "ah" sound, while "caught" is more of a "caw" sound.

Edited June 29, 2016 by St. Claire

[Princess Sparkle]

38 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

That's really interesting, but now I'm really confused.  I thought "ah" and "aw" were pronounced the same until I got to "crayon" and saw that there was one pronunciation as "cray-ahn" and another as "cray-awn".  Then again with "Florida" as "Flah-rida" and "Flaw-rida".  How else can you pronounce "ah"?

I think this is another "depends on how you pronounce it".  Using the crayon example, to me "ahn" and "awn" are different to me, because in "awn", I'd pronounce the "w".  What's difficult is that over a message board, I can't audibly demonstrate how I hear the difference, but to me "ah" and "aw" are pronounced differently.  I'm guessing it depends on the region too - I know I say "cray-ahn" with a super hard "a"; I don't have much by way of a Chicago accent, but it comes out on words that have a hard/long "a" sound.  Think Cilanto, Sandwich, etc.  That's how I always knew when I watched Happy Endings that Adam Pally must be from the Chicago area, because he pronounces sandwiches like I do.  

The one that always catches me is Gaper's Block.  I had no idea how Chicago-centric that was until I said it when I was in college and people looked at me like I had three heads.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Princess Sparkle

[Cobalt Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Two regional pronunciations that drive me nuts are quarter as kor-ter and coupon as kyoo-pon (I have a visceral hatred of the first), so it's interesting to see that about 30% of respondents to that survey pronounce each word that way.  I need to avoid a lot of the country.

Where do they say 'kyoo-pon'? I live in the south, and I've said koo-pon my entire life.I need to know so I will never go there.

[Ohwell]

I must be bi-something, because I'll say either kyoo-pon or koo-pon.  I'll say root or rowt for route.  I'm weird like that.

Another annoyance is people who say "umble" for humble.  I have relatives in the South who pronounce it that way.

[bilgistic]

I say "all-mund" and "cue-pon". I even have a college degree. I grew up in the Piedmont Triad area of NC, and have lived in Charlotte, NC for over 20 years since.

[Sandman87]

Right now I live in almond growing country, so I pronounce it "all-mond" just to piss everyone off, as if it were the name of a character from Krypton.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I must be bi-something, because I'll say either kyoo-pon or koo-pon.  I'll say root or rowt for route.  I'm weird like that.

Another annoyance is people who say "umble" for humble.  I have relatives in the South who pronounce it that way.

If you're like me, when having a conversation with someone with a different regional style of speaking, I/you start talking in the same style as the other person. When it happens, it's not a conscious decision. Often I wonder if it is offensive, but so far, most seem to appreciate it.

And "umble" for humble is also common in Cockney English. I know this from listening to the sound track to My Fair Lady at least 50 times as a kid. Uh oh. I think I'm about to burst into song.

[bilgistic]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

If you're like me, when having a conversation with someone with a different regional style of speaking, I/you start talking in the same style as the other person. When it happens, it's not a conscious decision. Often I wonder if it is offensive, but so far, most seem to appreciate it.

That's called "code switching", according to my English linguistics professor about two decades ago. The class I took of hers was about dialects, accents, group dialogue/slang, etc. It was great fun! (I'm a nerd.)

[supposebly]

Code switching is when you start switching between languages by using words or phrases from one language in the other. Like, when I say in German: Ich habe upgeloaded. I'm using an English word in a German verb form.

I think what @shapeshifter meant was when we assimilate to the other person's style of speech or accent. Like what Gillian Anderson does. She has a British accent when in England or when talking to people with a British accent but switches to more "American" when talking to Americans.

[Bastet]

I do that when it's an accent distinctly different from mine, and have to make a real effort not to, because I don't want people to think I'm mocking them - or that I'm some freak who affects accents.  And I love to travel, so it's an ongoing thing for me; if I don't check myself, I unconsciously adopt the accent of the people I'm surrounded by, especially certain accents.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Bastet said:

I do that when it's an accent distinctly different from mine, and have to make a real effort not to, because I don't want people to think I'm mocking them - or that I'm some freak who affects accents.  And I love to travel, so it's an ongoing thing for me; if I don't check myself, I unconsciously adopt the accent of the people I'm surrounded by, especially certain accents.

I just can't seem to not do it. I started doing it in the 70s when I was hitchhiking. It seemed like an easy way to get the driver to not see me as "the other," and since I'd been doing impersonations of TV personalities since pre-school, it came naturally. But, yeah, I do worry that they might thing I'm mocking or just weird.

[riley702]

On 6/29/2016 at 7:19 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Where do they say 'kyoo-pon'? I live in the south, and I've said koo-pon my entire life.I need to know so I will never go there.

That would be the MidWest. Suck on it.

Pen/pin sound the same to me, as do marry/merry/Mary. Caught and cot are different, as are Don and Dawn. And just to piss off the snobs, I say peony "piney" and call green bell peppers "mangoes". And yes, I'm intelligent, well-read and well-educated.

Edited July 1, 2016 by riley702

[FormerMod-a1]

4 hours ago, riley702 said:

That would be the MidWest. Suck on it.

That would be wrong.  Born and raised in the Midwest and we say coo-pon.  

[riley702]

Lived here all my 55 years. Never heard anyone say coo-pon.

[FormerMod-a1]

And I've only heard kyoo-pon a couple of times in my 44 years, and I don't think they were native midwesterners, but that was long ago in my childhood so I don't remember where they were from.  

[SVNBob]

Relevant to the current discussion...

[fishcakes]

I've always said it "cue-pon," and never thought anything about it until I was about 30 and one of my coworkers started making fun of me for it, sneering, "it's not cue-pon, it's coo-pon." That was literally the first time in my life I'd ever heard the difference. I did an informal survey of my other coworkers and they all pronounced it "coo-pon" and said that I am weird because I don't. A couple of them were really jazzed about mocking me, which is how you know how small some people's lives can be. In any case, a few years ago, coupons.com did a nationwide survey and their results were that 57% of Americans pronounce it "cue-pon." As further evidence of the smallness of people's lives, one of the commenters on that story says, "Pretty sure cuepon is just wrong. I have heard people say it, but it is quite rare. Their methodology must have some flaw." The same guy left another comment, saying, "So 57% of americansn [sic] surveyed can not [sic] say coupon." Aw, look at poor Matt W., wanting to die on such a tiny, tiny hill. I mean, I'm inclined to think the Harvard survey is more accurate than the coupons.com survey and that "coo-pon" is more common, but I mostly think that some people should relax.

In related news, I pronounce it, "pa-jah-mas."

[St. Claire]

39 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

In related news, I pronounce it, "pa-jah-mas."

As well you should. Pajamas rhymes with "llamas" (per the delightful children's book) not "bananas" (per the slightly creepy  Australian TV program) 

[caci]

I guess, when it comes down to it, I like that people have different pronunciations of words whether due to accents or regional upbringing.  I appreciate the diversity of language.  How boring would it be to have everyone pronounce every word the same.  My fear is that accents are disappearing and that we are losing some uniqueness in our language.

[Ohwell]

I agree.  As long as they don't say "nucular."  Then somebody gets shot.

[Rick Kitchen]

37 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I agree.  As long as they don't say "nucular."  Then somebody gets shot.

My chemistry teacher in high school used to say "nucular" and "nuculus".  Drove me crazy.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Indiana girl here jumping in to vote for "coo-pon".  

[Haleth]

I saw a commercial yesterday where the voice over said "cyoo-pon."  Cracked me up.

[Archery]

On 6/30/2016 at 6:33 PM, supposebly said:

Code switching is when you start switching between languages by using words or phrases from one language in the other. Like, when I say in German: Ich habe upgeloaded. I'm using an English word in a German verb form.

I think what @shapeshifter meant was when we assimilate to the other person's style of speech or accent. Like what Gillian Anderson does. She has a British accent when in England or when talking to people with a British accent but switches to more "American" when talking to Americans.

I codeswitch words and accents all the time.  I sound radically different depending on whether I'm speaking with my British-island family, my black church family, or my white co-workers.  

Also, my son had a Haitian-American teacher in first or second grade.  He is the only one in the family who pronounces the letter H as "haitch".

Back to grammar: I nearly threw something at the TV just now when the closed captioning said "I wish I would of."  

Edited July 3, 2016 by Archery

[bilgistic]

I unsubscribed this week to a daily deals/savings e-newsletter because the woman sending it was promoting a site, and said, "This site is addicting!" NO. NOT IN MY HOUSE.

Here's why it's wrong (in my eyes):

As an example: The skin is reddening. (Reddening describes the skin.)

This site is addicting. (Addicting isn't a state of the site, it's an understood state of how she feels about the site. Also and again, "ADDICTIVE" EXISTS.)

I unsubscribed also because I got tired of her sending those secondary (obviously commissioned) emails beyond the daily deals for which I signed up, but that "addicting" nonsense was the final straw.

DEATH TO "ADDICTING". And "would/should of"!

[Babalu]

For what it's worth, dictionary.com lists both coo-pon and cyoo-pon as acceptable pronunciations. They both sound perfectly fine to me.

Re code-switching: I had a co-worker who would talk to me in perfectly standard English, then go to the next cubicle and talk to another co-worker in complete Hawai'ian pidgin. (Both of them grew up here.) I asked her if she knew she was speaking to me and the other woman totally differently, and she had no idea. @Archery - do you do it consciously or is it so natural you aren't even aware of it?

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Archery said:

I codeswitch words and accents all the time.  I sound radically different depending on whether I'm speaking with my British-island family, my black church family, or my white co-workers.  

Also, my son had a Haitian-American teacher in first or second grade.  He is the only one in the family who pronounces the letter H as "haitch".

Back to grammar: I nearly threw something at the TV just now when the closed captioning said "I wish I would of."  

Archery, that's a great decription of what I do too. 

 

42 minutes ago, Babalu said:

...Re code-switching: I had a co-worker who would talk to me in perfectly standard English, then go to the next cubicle and talk to another co-worker in complete Hawai'ian pidgin. (Both of them grew up here.) I asked her if she knew she was speaking to me and the other woman totally differently, and she had no idea. @Archery - do you do it consciously or is it so natural you aren't even aware of it?

I can't speak for Archery, but I think when I start doing it, I'm unaware, but as I begin to hear my speech patterns, I think to myself, "There I go again. Hopefully it's okay."

 

44 minutes ago, Babalu said:

For what it's worth, dictionary.com lists both coo-pon and cyoo-pon as acceptable pronunciations. They both sound perfectly fine to me....

I use both too, and have a moment where I hope I used the appropriate pronunciation for the people listening.

[MaryMitch]

I moved around a lot (within the US) as a kid, and I tend to pick up the accent of whoever I'm speaking to. Usually I don't know I'm doing it.

When I was working in Mexico for a couple weeks, I learned enough Spanish to carry on simple conversations (I had some Spanish in high school); oddly enough, someone told me I spoke Spanish with a French accent.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

I moved around a lot (within the US) as a kid, and I tend to pick up the accent of whoever I'm speaking to. Usually I don't know I'm doing it.

When I was working in Mexico for a couple weeks, I learned enough Spanish to carry on simple conversations (I had some Spanish in high school); oddly enough, someone told me I spoke Spanish with a French accent.

I also moved around as a kid; maybe that's a strong contributing factor toward this brand of "code switching."

I wonder if your HS Spanish teacher had a "French Connection."

ETA: I work at a college. Several years ago a couple of international students were conversing outside my office door. One asked the other a question, the answer to which the other didn't know. Having worked there for over ten years, I easily answered their question. This is where the story gets interesting:
They both looked at me with surprise. Finally one asked me if I spoke Arabic. I said no (I can read a little French and Spanish, but that's it). "But we were talking in Arabic," he then replied. Evidently I had correctly answered their Arabic question in English. I regret that I do not recall the question or the answer. This has never happened again. Weird, huh?

Edited July 4, 2016 by shapeshifter

[Archery]

Sometimes I code switch on purpose, but even when I don't, I'm always aware that I'm doing it, if that makes sense.