Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[topanga]

On 7/22/2016 at 8:24 PM, MaryPatShelby said:

When my brother was little, way back in the dark ages of the mid-60's, he always said "on accident".  We thought that was so cute, and never corrected him.  (We didn't correct him when he said "Forn Clakes" either.)  Fast forward to the late 1990's, when I worked with a guy who said "on accident", and I thought "huh, interesting.  Same as Young Shelby when he was little."  Now everyone here in Wisconsin says it, and I wish I understood the transition from a toddler's misinterpretation of the language to accepted vernacular. 

I see your point, that some bad habits continue if unchecked. It's often a mattering of choosing our battles. When my oldest son was 2 or 3, he confused the words "much" and "many." So he'd look out his car window at a traffic jam and say, "There are too much cars out here." Inwardly, I'd cringe. But he was two years old. I didn't make a big deal about it. But my husband would flip, saying "It's many! Too many cars!"  And I'd remind my husband that he should relax. Our child wouldn't be making this mistake when he was 10. Or 20. I've never seen adults make this mistake. And my son doesn't anymore, BTW (He's 14 now). 

In contrast, my husband, whose grammar is usually pretty good, always says. "We was going here." or "You was..." Drives me crazy. I see a lot of adults in TV and on movies using this same horrible phrasing, and I can't believe they were allowed to grow up and speak that way. I used to correct my husband, but after 16 years of marriage, I've given up. 

However,  I have never allowed my children to get away with speaking like this, knowing that, if uncorrected, they likely would continue to talk this way into adulthood.  

[mojito]

The toughest thing about being even a little bit of a grammar/usage police officer is that you, too, are prone to mistakes. It's like being a TV/movie gunfighter in the Old West: there will come a time when someone will put you in your place. 

[topanga]

11 minutes ago, mojito said:

The toughest thing about being even a little bit of a grammar/usage police officer is that you, too, are prone to mistakes. It's like being a TV/movie gunfighter in the Old West: there will come a time when someone will put you in your place. 

I know. On this thread, especially, I try to catch all of my grammar or spelling mistakes. But I'm sure a few have gotten through, and I'm also sure people have had a good laugh at my expense. But we open ourselves up to it. 

[Rick Kitchen]

I can't say this is really a grammar error, but a local news station reporter said this last night, when reporting from Philadelphia: "Philadelphia, the birthplace of democracy."  Er.  No.  That would be Athens.

[Sandman87]

Tonight's Demo convention has the theme "United Together." That's much more efficient than uniting separately.

[Haleth]

Over the weekend I caught two usages of "I's" instead of "my" (as in "John's and I's my").  That's not a word!

[Quof]

I'm surprised they added the possessive to "John". Typically these people say "John and I's *whatever object*.  

Here's a hint, people. Say "our".  

[legaleagle53]

19 hours ago, Rick Kitchen said:

I can't say this is really a grammar error, but a local news station reporter said this last night, when reporting from Philadelphia: "Philadelphia, the birthplace of democracy."  Er.  No.  That would be Athens.

Historically, yes. However, I would assume that the reporter meant "the birthplace of our American democracy," although technically, that's not accurate, either -- our country has never been a true democracy and wasn't designed to be one.  It is a democratic republic with a representative form of government because the Founding Fathers felt that making it a true democracy (in which the public directly votes on everything) would too easily lead to mob rule at the expense of minorities.

[ABay]

Thank God that can never happen...

[backformore]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 7:24 PM, MaryPatShelby said:

When my brother was little, way back in the dark ages of the mid-60's, he always said "on accident".  We thought that was so cute, and never corrected him.  (We didn't correct him when he said "Forn Clakes" either.)  Fast forward to the late 1990's, when I worked with a guy who said "on accident", and I thought "huh, interesting.  Same as Young Shelby when he was little."  Now everyone here in Wisconsin says it, and I wish I understood the transition from a toddler's misinterpretation of the language to accepted vernacular. 

That's funny, because my brothers also used to say "On accident".  Usually in the context of "you broke my toy on purpose".  "No I didn't, it was on accident." 

[backformore]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 9:00 AM, mojito said:

I shake my head at, "supposably", "mischevious", "ideal" for "idea", and "whenever" instead of "when". 

WHEN did this "whenever"  bullshit start?   I heard one person do it, then another, then another.  It HAS to be from a TV show, right?  Anyone know the origin? 

[Rick Kitchen]

It's international.  In Australia, they even cut it down to "Evs".

[backformore]

31 minutes ago, Rick Kitchen said:

It's international.  In Australia, they even cut it down to "Evs".

I thought "evs"  was short for "whatever."   I'm talking about "whenever"  used instead of "when". 

Example:  "When I as at the bar" - means one distinct event, and "whenever I was at the bar" means every time I was there.  People are now saying things like "whenever I went away to college", which seems to mean they went away to college multiple times.  Or "whenever I first met him," which makes no sense.

I think it's one of those things where  people think a longer word sounds more intelligent, but the two words are not interchangeable.

[shapeshifter]

20 minutes ago, backformore said:

I thought "evs"  was short for "whatever."   I'm talking about "whenever"  used instead of "when". 

Example:  "When I as at the bar" - means one distinct event, and "whenever I was at the bar" means every time I was there.  People are now saying things like "whenever I went away to college", which seems to mean they went away to college multiple times.  Or "whenever I first met him," which makes no sense.

I think it's one of those things where  people think a longer word sounds more intelligent, but the two words are not interchangeable.

I don't think I've ever heard it. Maybe it's regional?

[kassygreene]

I think it's sort of southern regional.  I've heard it forever, but I went to high school and grad school in Tennessee.  I seem to remember my first roommate in grad school said it (she was from Memphis), and my sister's first husband said it (he was from non-Northern Virginia), and this was all some forty years ago.

[shapeshifter]

Does this:

10 hours ago, backformore said:

I thought "evs"  was short for "whatever."   I'm talking about "whenever"  used instead of "when". 

Example:  "When I as at the bar" - means one distinct event, and "whenever I was at the bar" means every time I was there.  People are now saying things like "whenever I went away to college", which seems to mean they went away to college multiple times.  Or "whenever I first met him," which makes no sense.

I think it's one of those things where  people think a longer word sounds more intelligent, but the two words are not interchangeable.

mean: "Whenever it was that I first met him," implying that the speaker can't clearly recall the exact date?

[Archery]

No, my friend who is from Iowa says "whenever" for "when," as well:  "Whenever I went on that cruise last year . . ." 

[backformore]

7 hours ago, Archery said:

No, my friend who is from Iowa says "whenever" for "when," as well:  "Whenever I went on that cruise last year . . ." 

Yes, that's what I'm talking about.  "Whenever I went to that store....."  and then the person makes it clear that they are talking about ONE instance,  not an "every time I went to that store" and not "whatever day it was that I went to that store."   I noticed it in a co-worker about a year ago, and then I started hearing it more and more from various people.   They mean "when"  but say "whenever,"  often multiple times in one conversation.  

 I'm in Illinois. It's definitely a new use of the word.  I had not heard it before last year, and it is spreading. 

[DangerousMinds]

On 7/26/2016 at 10:37 PM, Rick Kitchen said:

It's international.  In Australia, they even cut it down to "Evs".

I would like to believe it's mostly tweens/teens saying it this way . . .. 

[MaryPatShelby]

On 7/26/2016 at 10:39 PM, shapeshifter said:

I don't think I've ever heard it. Maybe it's regional?

I've never heard that either.  I'm glad too, because I would be SO confused about what the person was trying to say.

[shapeshifter]

Argh. From a recent article in the respected magazine, New Scientist:

Quote

Our ancestors were no less smart than us...

Isn't it always "than we," because "than we are"? 
(Note I do appreciate the British style of punctuation.)

[Haleth]

Quote

Our ancestors were no less smart than us...

Was that supposed to be ironic?

Edited July 30, 2016 by Haleth

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 7/26/2016 at 7:37 PM, backformore said:

WHEN did this "whenever"  bullshit start?   I heard one person do it, then another, then another.  It HAS to be from a TV show, right?  Anyone know the origin? 

My policy is to blame all such crimes on the Kardashians.

 

On 7/27/2016 at 0:55 AM, kassygreene said:

I think it's sort of southern regional.  I've heard it forever, but I went to high school and grad school in Tennessee.  I seem to remember my first roommate in grad school said it (she was from Memphis), and my sister's first husband said it (he was from non-Northern Virginia), and this was all some forty years ago.

Another incident from some 40 years ago:  I'm from west Texas but went to college in Los Angeles.  When I was back home, for some reason I mentioned to a person from east Texas that people from San Francisco pronounce "aunt" to rhyme with "flaunt," not "ant."  She said that was interesting, because in East Texas, black people pronounce it like "flaunt."  Oh.  The guy I was basing my San Francisco example on was black. 

 

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Argh. From a recent article in the respected magazine, New Scientist:

Quote

Our ancestors were no less smart than us...

Isn't it always "than we," because "than we are"?

I think so, but it sounds odd (and maybe even pretentious) to me so I always modify my statement to put the "is" or "are" on the end to fix that.  I also never use the word "forte" when speaking because if I pronounce it correctly most people will think I'm wrong and if I pronounce it like most people do I can't live with myself. 

I draw the line at W.E.B. Du Bois, though (he came up yesterday, so it's fresh on my mind).  Although I probably shouldn't be so critical because I think in some cases, mispronouncing things could actually be a sign of being well read but not surrounded by people with whom to discuss what you've read.  I think I should be more impressed by someone who's read Du Bois on his own than someone who slacked through a sociology elective in college but heard the name pronounced correctly.

And back to TV--I travel a lot and I do like to watch the local weather forecasts because that's how you can find out how to pronounce the names of the regional towns and counties.   

[rur]

37 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I also never use the word "forte" when speaking because if I pronounce it correctly most people will think I'm wrong and if I pronounce it like most people do I can't live with myself. 

Amen!

[legaleagle53]

15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Argh. From a recent article in the respected magazine, New Scientist:

Isn't it always "than we," because "than we are"? 

Yes, and for exactly that reason.  "Than" isn't a preposition; it's a subordinating conjunction linking a dependent clause containing an understood comparison that has the pronoun following the "than" as its subject (..."than we are").  Therefore, it takes the nominative case, not the objective case.

[Bastet]

Quote

I also never use the word "forte" when speaking because if I pronounce it correctly most people will think I'm wrong and if I pronounce it like most people do I can't live with myself.

This gave me such a grin, because I do the same thing for the same reason.

[atomationage]

I never use any diacritical marks for French words, because I worry that they won't translate for other people's view on their computers.  I've experienced that in the past.  Sometimes even apostrophes or quotation marks will turn up as something quite different, like "*&%".

[Ohwell]

3 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Another incident from some 40 years ago:  I'm from west Texas but went to college in Los Angeles.  When I was back home, for some reason I mentioned to a person from east Texas that people from San Francisco pronounce "aunt" to rhyme with "flaunt," not "ant."  She said that was interesting, because in East Texas, black people pronounce it like "flaunt."  Oh.  The guy I was basing my San Francisco example on was black. 

Interesting.  For me, whether I say "aunt" or "ant" depends solely on the first name of the aunt, and how it sounds to me.  Also, I guess it's from the South but I've also heard "aunt" pronounced "aint," like when Andy Griffith used to say "Aint Bee," and I believe they were supposed to be from North Carolina.  I have one aunt whose name I preface with "aint" because it just sounds better.   

Edited July 30, 2016 by Ohwell

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 7/26/2016 at 6:19 AM, Haleth said:

Over the weekend I caught two usages of "I's" instead of "my" (as in "John's and I's my").  That's not a word!

Is this a recent discovery for you?  If so, you must not watch much reality TV.

And speaking of, we're now 30+ seasons in, and they STILL misspell "forgo" on the fantasy suite date card on the Bachelor/Bachelorette.  It's ridiculous--everybody knows what the card is going to say, and they read it out loud anyway.  There's absolutely no reason to SHOW it, especially if it's going to contain misspellings.

 

On 7/26/2016 at 6:44 AM, Quof said:

I'm surprised they added the possessive to "John". Typically these people say "John and I's *whatever object*.  

On the finale of Maron, which was written by Marc Maron, a character said "Zoe and my baby."  I would have preferred "Zoe's," of course, but at this point I consider not saying "I's" to be a victory.  It made me consider dusting off my Twitter account to bestow kudos on him, but I'm not sure I can explain giving half credit in 140 characters. 

[mojito]

On 7/26/2016 at 8:37 PM, backformore said:

WHEN did this "whenever"  bullshit start?   I heard one person do it, then another, then another.  It HAS to be from a TV show, right?  Anyone know the origin? 

I think this is a regional thing. If I had to guess which region, I'd say the center of the country. Plains states. I hear it here in Texas, and I've heard people raised in OK and KS use it, too. Didn't hear it in western states or the northeast. 

[meep.meep]

Not strictly "grammar" but it made me laugh.

Watching a bridezilla on Say Yes to the Dress talk about her future husband:  He is the yin to my yang

Any bets on who will wear the pants in that relationship?

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, mojito said:

I think this is a regional thing. If I had to guess which region, I'd say the center of the country. Plains states. I hear it here in Texas, and I've heard people raised in OK and KS use it, too. Didn't hear it in western states or the northeast. 

I heard it for the 15 years I lived in Ohio (Canton, to be exact), and it drove me nuts.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, mojito said:

I think this is a regional thing. If I had to guess which region, I'd say the center of the country. Plains states. I hear it here in Texas, and I've heard people raised in OK and KS use it, too. Didn't hear it in western states or the northeast. 

 

24 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

I heard it for the 15 years I lived in Ohio (Canton, to be exact), and it drove me nuts.

I've never heard it in Illinois--at least not in suburbia or academia, although I used to frequently hear sentences that ended with "go with," especially in my childhood in the 60s.

[MaryPatShelby]

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

 

I've never heard it in Illinois--at least not in suburbia or academia, although I used to frequently hear sentences that ended with "go with," especially in my childhood in the 60s.

As in "Dad's going to the store, do you want to go with?"?(Wisconsin here....)

Edited August 1, 2016 by MaryPatShelby

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

As in "Dad's going to the store, do you want to go with?"?(Wisconsin here....)

I think that's a remnant of a Germanic construction that has survived a thousand years of linguistic evolution.  Compare the German:  "Vati geht zum Lebensmittelgeschäft.  Willst du mit?"

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

I think that's a remnant of a Germanic construction that has survived a thousand years of linguistic evolution.  Compare the German:  "Vati geht zum Lebensmittelgeschäft.  Willst du mit?"

Maybe so, but I still remember my mother being offended by it's incorrectness when we moved to the Midwest in the 60s, which caused me on several occaisions to reply to, "Do you want to go with?" with, "With whom and where?" which is probably not a good way to make friends.

[orza]

35 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe so, but I still remember my mother being offended by it's incorrectness when we moved to the Midwest in the 60s, which caused me on several occaisions to reply to, "Do you want to go with?" with, "With whom and where?" which is probably not a good way to make friends.

I react the same way to the trendy phrase "I can't even." I'm always tempted to ask "You can't even what? Finish a sentence?" but I don't .

[StatisticalOutlier]

22 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe so, but I still remember my mother being offended by it's incorrectness when we moved to the Midwest in the 60s, which caused me on several occaisions to reply to, "Do you want to go with?" with, "With whom and where?" which is probably not a good way to make friends.

Yeah, probably not.  Unless you wanted to be MY friend.  :-)

Actually, I'm the biggest pedant in the world about misuse, but I find "Do you want to go with?" kind of charming.  But it was not used where I grew up and I hear it only occasionally.

In recent years, I've started paying particular attention to idioms and appreciating their weirdness, and "go with" is probably an off-shoot of this.

[topanga]

On 8/1/2016 at 3:25 PM, orza said:

I react the same way to the trendy phrase "I can't even." I'm always tempted to ask "You can't even what? Finish a sentence?" but I don't .

It reminds me of a phrase I hear in real life and on reality TV: "I was feeling some kinda way." Usually it's in the middle of a tragic or emotional situation, or maybe the person feels empathy or sympathy for another person's plight. I know (I think) the person is saying that she was feeling emotional or sad or angry. Then say what you mean, dammit! Use your words. I hate trying to guess what other people are feeling.

[DangerousMinds]

I know! What the fuck does that mean, exactly? What kind of way??

[kassygreene]

Today on our local news there was a very nice story about a kid who has been car crazy since he was tiny, and he knows how to put them together and races go-karts and so on, and isn't old enough to get a learner's permit.  It was a nice spot.  But the father was talking about how the kid started with cars "whenever he was four", and the kid himself talked about how much he "takes cars serious" and they are rural or small town Alabama folk.

Like I said, it was a very nice story about a nice kid and his father.  And here I am tripping up on the regional colloquialisms.  

[shapeshifter]

29 minutes ago, kassygreene said:

Today on our local news there was a very nice story about a kid who has been car crazy since he was tiny, and he knows how to put them together and races go-karts and so on, and isn't old enough to get a learner's permit.  It was a nice spot.  But the father was talking about how the kid started with cars "whenever he was four", and the kid himself talked about how much he "takes cars serious" and they are rural or small town Alabama folk.

Like I said, it was a very nice story about a nice kid and his father.  And here I am tripping up on the regional colloquialisms.  

Like I mentioned above, I've never heard whenever used for when, but this example makes me wonder if it serves to cover possible mistakes in memory, like maybe the boy was 3 or 5 when he was first interested in cars. 

[Rick Kitchen]

54 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Like I mentioned above, I've never heard whenever used for when, but this example makes me wonder if it serves to cover possible mistakes in memory, like maybe the boy was 3 or 5 when he was first interested in cars. 

There's a vlogger I follow on YouTube who uses "whenever" instead of "when" all the time.  He grew up in rural northern Florida.

[meep.meep]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Like I mentioned above, I've never heard whenever used for when, but this example makes me wonder if it serves to cover possible mistakes in memory, like maybe the boy was 3 or 5 when he was first interested in cars. 

When I hear that, I think it's instead of being able to remember the actual year #.

[Moose135]

9 hours ago, kassygreene said:

"whenever he was four"

I imagine that would have been about a year after he was three, but I'm just guessing.

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, meep.meep said:

When I hear that, I think it's instead of being able to remember the actual year #.

That actually makes sense. 

[mojito]

On 8/3/2016 at 1:26 PM, shapeshifter said:

Like I mentioned above, I've never heard whenever used for when, but this example makes me wonder if it serves to cover possible mistakes in memory, like maybe the boy was 3 or 5 when he was first interested in cars. 

There's always that possibility. I'd guess, though, if you said something to the speaker, he would probably be unaware of what he said. Or asked the difference between "whenever" or "when", you'd get a blank stare. A couple of months ago, a friend and I were talking about odd ways that people speak,  and he said had never noticed anyone using the two words interchangeably. Within minutes, he used "whenever" incorrectly, and was pretty surprised when I pointed this out.

[Sandman87]

I just watched an American researcher who was being interviewed on the BBC News use the word "actually" 4 times in a single sentence: "So now, using this model, we can actually zoom in on what actually is in the dust that's actually protecting the children against the asthma and allergies, and actually affecting what we know now is the innate immune response." She actually should be forced to take actual remedial English before actually receiving any more actual research grants.

[mojito]

I recently listed the four A words that are overused: actually, awesome, absolutely, and amazing. 

I feel your pain. 

[Shannon L.]

11 hours ago, Sandman87 said:

I just watched an American researcher who was being interviewed on the BBC News use the word "actually" 4 times in a single sentence: "So now, using this model, we can actually zoom in on what actually is in the dust that's actually protecting the children against the asthma and allergies, and actually affecting what we know now is the innate immune response."

I have to be very careful or I'll say "actually" too much.  I try to be conscience of the fact that I've used it once and to not use it again for a while.  However, I don't believe I've ever said it 4 times in one sentence.